CAP 25 - Part 7 - Competitive Ability Discussion

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As it looks like the thread is winding down, I want to reiterate the reasons behind my support for Merciless.

Power-wise, many think it's too powerful while others think it's not nearly powerful enough. This points to it being a perfect opportunity to learn, which is after all, what CAP is primarily about. We can learn about how valuable critical hits are, how much of a cost it is to require a toxic status, can compare the value of one-time setup to poisoning predicted switches, and more. These are topics that are already present (for crits, often exasperatingly so) in the current metagame, but Merciless will focus in on them to an unprecedented degree. Even before the concept is over, it should lead to fascinating discussions around our stat lineup.

Concept-wise, CAP 25f's typing is perfect* for actualizing Merciless, because the poison-status's weakness to poison and steel types is perfectly countered by Fire and Ground stab attacks. It fulfills movepool coordination too, having strong synergy with a non-offensive move that is nonetheless often carried on offensive Pokemon, and potentially some less direct synergies with various coverage moves.

*(to be a pedant, I guess I'd have to admit Ground/Fighting is arguably as good. But we're near the top, and it's close enough it doesn't matter)
 
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SHSP

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As it looks like the thread is winding down, I want to reiterate the reasons behind my support for Merciless.

Power-wise, many think it's too powerful while others think it's not nearly powerful enough. This points to it being a perfect opportunity to learn, which is after all, what CAP is primarily about. We can learn about how valuable critical hits are, how much of a cost it is to require a toxic status, can compare the value of one-time setup to poisoning predicted switches, and more. These are topics that are already present (for crits, often exasperatingly so) in the current metagame, but Merciless will focus in on them to an unprecedented degree. Even before the concept is over, it should lead to fascinating discussions around our stat lineup.

Concept-wise, CAP 25f's typing is perfect* for actualizing Merciless, because the poison-status's weakness to poison and steel types is perfectly countered by Fire and Ground stab attacks. It fulfills movepool coordination too, having strong synergy with a non-offensive move that is nonetheless often carried on offensive Pokemon, and potentially some less direct synergies with various coverage moves.

*(to be a pedant, I guess I'd have to admit Ground/Fighting is arguably as good. But we're near the top, and it's close enough it doesn't matter)
Merciless is absurd, hard stop. Consider this: a big argument is what you described right there: what's the cost of clicking toxic. Clicking toxic is a tempo loan with this mon: we lose some tempo, sure, when we toxic something on the switch in. This depends on stats to an extent, but it's safe to assume we're gonna be able to force SOME things out. Naturally, there's going to be the list of checks and counters that we designed that want to come in their place. We click toxic. Firstly, toxic-ing something like Tomo or Lando is not a bad thing: plenty of offensive mons already run the move to beat stuff like this: see Band Zygarde, see some Mega Sciz sets. Secondly, it's a tempo loss, sure, and we're likely forced out on a fair few of the checks. The LOAN part comes back into play when firemon comes back in again. Suddenly, we're getting back the tempo we lost with the initial toxic, and interest, when the stuff that switches in on us once to get toxic'd CANNOT SWITCH BACK IN. We're critting through checks as well as letting them get worn down by the already powerful status we've laid on them. The "drawback" to clicking toxic is barely existent, and the benefits of it can be absurd.
 
Haven’t posted much here gonna since all the options seem ok now that pull is banned and simple is getting backlash. Gonna post a thought on another ability which imo, is far too good.

Merciless: after scepticism from me thinking this was as bad as the other crit abilities (they are awful please stop), I actually think this one is way, way too good on second thought. This is entirely because Fire Ground FORCES OUT all Toxic(the status not the move no infraction please) immunities outside of Mega Sableye which more than likely isn’t going to want to switch in anyway. The problem with this is that we’re giving F a damage boost on everything it doesn’t already beat. messing with checks / counters is bad as if we just boost damage against everything F doesn’t already beat our checks and counters become much much weaker. Lati@s aren’t going to want to come in, especially as Poison also wears them down; Clef is going to get rocked by even weak STAB crits and can’t do anything back to F even if it’s not taking poison damage 1.5x damage boost is enough to muscle past it as we’ve seen with Zygarde which has subpar offenses in case this argument comes to “balance it in stats” bare in mind F has this boost AND access to an item. Pyroak obviously can’t be crit but still can’t swith in on in case it ends up poisoned, and has to take 2 STAB attacks(1 if we end up slower)if it wants to heal bell which might be too much after rocks even if it can’t be crit . Lando is only coming in if it’s not poisoned as intim essentially only removes our ability, it’s still going to have to take a neutral STAB hit + any item boosts. At the end of the day nothing likes being crit and nothing likes being poisoned(my bad zangoose) and compounding these with our already incredible STAB combination is enough to break past most would be checks/counters.
Another point on Crit abilities pushing physical - consider that crits ignore stat drops and we are a fire type, that is all. 100% crit moves are nice but you ever killed a lati with a -6 Kingdra?

E: I cannot type, I apologise
 
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Deck Knight

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Re: Merciless and Toxic loans: Then one Pokemon uses Heal Bell or Aromatherapy and you default on all your Toxic loans at once. Or people rediscover Lum Berry is a perfectly viable item (this wouldn't be a bad development.) Or you mispredict because you were so busy trying to spread Toxic you forgot you're a Fire/Ground type and 9 times out of 10 are probably better off direct attacking whatever is in front of you instead of assuming everything will switch into your perfect prediction Toxics.

Merciless is a late game cleaner ability. This is a fine direction to go in, but let's not pretend as some of the overblown Discord chatter has that there is some tiny acceptable stat range for what operates functionally as No Ability the earlier in the game you send out 25f.

I simply don't prefer it because it relies too much on team support and something resembling magical thinking on prediction reliability. Though in fairness there are a ton of viable moves with 30%+ Poison infliction chances which will both provide offensive pressure and reliably trigger Merciless over time.
 

Drapionswing

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Re: Merciless and Toxic loans: Then one Pokemon uses Heal Bell or Aromatherapy and you default on all your Toxic loans at once. Or people rediscover Lum Berry is a perfectly viable item (this wouldn't be a bad development.) Or you mispredict because you were so busy trying to spread Toxic you forgot you're a Fire/Ground type and 9 times out of 10 are probably better off direct attacking whatever is in front of you instead of assuming everything will switch into your perfect prediction Toxics.

Merciless is a late game cleaner ability. This is a fine direction to go in, but let's not pretend as some of the overblown Discord chatter has that there is some tiny acceptable stat range for what operates functionally as No Ability the earlier in the game you send out 25f.

I simply don't prefer it because it relies too much on team support and something resembling magical thinking on prediction reliability. Though in fairness there are a ton of viable moves with 30%+ Poison infliction chances which will both provide offensive pressure and reliably trigger Merciless over time.

I don't think you're looking at the bigger picture when talking about merciless. So first of all to really depict Cap25f with merciless we need to have a sample set to look at.

Cap25f @ Choice Band
Ability: Merciless
- Fire Stab
- Ground Stab
- Filler
- Toxic


This set in it self, can spread toxic among its checks and as soon as the right pokemon are statused, it can start clicking attacks and killing things. I don't think it needs its team to spread status, because you want to spread status on your checks. If your checks aren't switching into you then you're already going to be pressuring your opponent immensely. Competitively, this set in itself does everything you need it to, and once status has been spread which can be at any point in the game not just late game it kills something. I've picked replays from slot 1 of every CapTT game of week 4 to measure this set versus the current metagame.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7cap-792188919 Legend Slayer vs Mxmts

As you can see, Legend Slayer has a Charizard Y, if that gets statused it's dead and can't switch in if hazards are on the field. Mxmts has a tomohawk, that gets statused and a physical Cap25f just kills it. They don't have any actual option to switch into the status or the stabs and are pigeonholed into a awkward scenario (Of course these teams are not built for the 25f meta, but they have what would be checks if 25f did not have merciless).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7cap-793092355 xHys vs Reachzero

xHys' team doesn't have checks anyway, Reachzero has a tomohawk which as I explained above can no longer check if you just do a little calcing for yourself.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7cap-792493355 SHSP vs Jordy

We have Landorus-T on SHSPs team while Jordy has Tomohawk and Zygarde. All of which get statused and then instantly die at the hands of Choice Banded crits.

Now you say we can just run Heal Bell or run Lum Berry, but that isn't realistic and at the point where a whole item slot has been focused entirely upon 1 Pokemon then that is clearly unhealthy straight away. It's no longer an option to run an item, but entirely forced upon us. As for Heal Bell or Aromatherapy, I just want to make you aware that you're not really going to be clearing status from 25f easily, considering it beats all clerics naturally and can pressure the opponents whole team to the point where there is no freedom to clear the status. (Think of how a player would pressure a hazard remover to prevent spikes from being removed).

Lastly I think your point about just outplaying the toxic is incredibly unrealistic, first of all there isn't many Pokemon that actually want to take a toxic from this Pokemon and the offensive typing is already so pressuring that when this Pokemon comes in it takes full control of the battle field putting the player in an advantageous situation. The ball is in the players court, and of course you can out play, but that's not to say that it's particularly the easiest thing in the world when this giant threat can literally either Claim a Pokemon, or put itself 1 step closer to claiming a Pokemon.

My question to you and other Merciless supporters is, if we go merciless what is going to check this thing?
 
Pajantom. Zygarde. Simply having a Cleric, of which there are several viable ones already. 25w. Air Balloon Heatran. Especially if using Choice Band as the item.
 
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reachzero

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Regarding Merciless, the idea of running Fire STAB/Ground STAB/Toxic is not in any way theorymon, or magical thinking of prediction reliability. Fire/Ground is good enough typing that unless we have much weaker than average defensive stats (which we shouldn't assume at this stage), 25f will have a ton of chances to switch in on ultra-common Pokemon like Clefable, Ferrothorn and Tapu Koko. Fire/Ground/Toxic is already seen practically all the time in CAP on Heatran, and I can tell you from experience that it's hugely annoying to deal with. Try switching Zygarde into Heatran willy-nilly and you'll see what I mean right away; switching in on Toxic is already really bad, and ensuring that it now gets crit by Ground STAB would make that matchup even worse.

Air Balloon is just a bad item for Heatran in general, since Heatran switches a lot into resisted moves like U-turn from Mega Scizor, Moonblast from Clefable and Heavy Slam from Celesteela. This would be an emergency measure at best.

Finally, I am totally at a loss for an explanation as to why people would propose "clerics" as a solution for Merciless. Aside from Clefable or Chansey on stall, what OU/CAP team has seriously run clerics since DPP? What Pokemon would you even propose using seriously as a cleric? Don't even bother saying Cyclohm, you and I and everyone know that every good Cyclohm set runs three attacks.

Merciless is really, really strong and picking it would mandate substantial mitigation in later stages to make sure 25f still has checks.

Edit CharSiuEmboar : Can you show me one replay from any CAP tournament game in which a player used Aromatherapy Pyroak and it did something meaningful in the game? I don't think that is a road you want to go down.
 
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I mean, I've not been a big fan of Merciless anyway, and prefer Super Luck as a critting option. If Merciless is too good, and 2.5* Crit Sniper similarly messes with checks, then what about Super Luck?

Aromatherapy Pyroak is a decent option as a cleric. Ignores the crit anyway, and hit neutrally - and given that it can pack Earth Power, is 25f seriously going to be sticking around, AV notwothstanding?

Edit: fair point. You know the meta better than me.
 
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For 25f, I would like to make a strong case for Multiscale. It in my opinion reaches the level of strength that we should want to reach in a concept like this. It also has multiple avenues. There are setup moves, recovery, hazards, and even hazard removal. Finally, due to hazards, Multiscale is more balanced than other abilities like Sniper, Sheer Force and Merciless.
 
After quickly skimming through the thread for abilities proposed for 25w, I realised that while other abilities that grant immunity to status have been mentioned, noone has mentioned Hydration yet. Toxic immunity for a defensive Pokemon is really strong with every other offensive Pokemon running Toxic as a potential bait move. Hydration is pro-concept because there are 2 moves that are notoriously known to be abused with it. The only other ability addressing Toxic in the list that snake's reviewed list that is pro-concept is Poison Heal, so I shall just talk about its advantages over that. Without assuming any moves, it is really hard to talk about the Hydration, but a huge disadvantage of Poison Heal is that you cannot safely switch into Scalds, Lava Plume or Knock Off without having already triggered Toxic Orb. This downside is even more detrimental on 25w than Gliscor because as a bulky Water, we will be switching into Scalds more often (Gliscor already has many cases where it is scared to switch into Heatran because of potential stray Plume / WoW burns). In fact, half of our "CAP25w switches into" list frequently carries eithe Scald or Knock Off, and being unable to switch into them immediately is dilemmic. Of course, if we can assume 25w gets common TM moves, I can elaborate more on its strength as a defensive prowess (the fact that SpD Manaphy was once a thing on stall shows the defensive prowess of the ability).
 
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I'll give my wise (?) final thoughts on 25w and 25f, since I think the end is nigh for this thread:

25w: I agree with Dogfish and really hope Magic Guard gets slated. Magic Guard DOES have actual direct interaction with Recoil/Crash moves and we can tailor our 'mon to find that crucial, and not optional. Additionally, 25w has the greatest risk of just being flat-out unviable on typing (since it isn't THAT good of a typing and since the meta is bloated with powerful bulky waters already). We really need an A+ ability that solves as many of the following problems as possible (listed in roughly how serious a problem I think they are):
- We need to account for being weak to Rocks (and all other entry hazards); this Rocks weakness makes us a much shakier switch-in than we may otherwise be. This is most key, as it makes us much worse than other bulky waters who aren't Rocks weak, and it isn't really something we can solve anywhere other than in ability.​
- We need to account for the fact that many dangerous offensive 'mons in the meta just mash Toxic to destroy their checks, and Status is real bad for us. We can theoretically solve this in movepool or with an item, but we'd be doing so at a huge tempo and opportunity cost so solving it here is nice.​
- We need to account for the fact that we have a starter's BST and build, meaning we can't just crash one or both of our offenses down to nothing nor can we max out ALL our defenses and still have room for speed. We're likely to be slow, and that's a factor we should keep in mind and possibly find ways to mitigate. We can solve this in later stages, but I think it should be considered.​

- We need to account for the fact that are typing doesn't leave us as a terribly offensively dangerous 'mon; we have limited ability to pressure or retaliate against things especially as a "defensive" 'mon. As a result, we need to have the power to overwhelm, punish, stop, or pressure 'mons that we in theory tank hits from but that can often just set up in our face before killing us and then our team. Specifically we're supposed to switch-in freely on the likes of SD Scizor and Dragon Dance Zygarde, and I am unconvinced we're going to be able to really stop those things on typing alone with a 535 BST unless we give our 'mon some other tools. This is the least pressing concern, both because our switch-in list is not a binding contract and because there are plenty of moves that can handle this for us as well, but it bears keeping in mind.​

Of course in doing all of this, we need to also respect our concept, and I wouldn't support a lot of the other things on snake_rattler's list like Magic Bounce and Battle Armor that have extremely tenuous movepool connections and are being used as generically good defensive abilities that are clearly going to ignore their movepool. But since Magic Guard does have both direct interaction (recoil and crashing) and weak but still clear synergy (hazard removal), I strongly support it. Every other ability at the top of snake's list does a good job of answering one of these major problems - Triage and Prankster help us be "fast" and still bulky with our BST, Poison Heal helps protect us from Status, and Corrosion (obliquely) helps us threaten dangerous set-up mons like Scizor and Crucibelle especially (although I'd note that Corrosion has some dangerous implications for our check and counter list in letting us make life hard for Ferrothorn, Naviathan, and Toxapex - all mons we wanted to beat us regardless of set). Magic Guard is important because it is one of the only on-concept ways to deal with our first and most pressing hazard weakness issue and it also can do some things for our secondary problem with being statused to death.

I tend to agree with the rest of snake's analysis for 25w, and am hoping for a slate of Triage, Prankster, Magic Guard, Corrosion, and Poison Heal. Several other abilities are interesting (especially Water Compaction), but since they don't solve most of our problems I am not interested.

25f: I like all three main proposed abilities. I will say in particular that Sheer Force is underrated - we do have a starter BST, and shouldn't feel bad about giving ourselves an ability that is "just damage". I don't envy snake_rattler as it is tough to pick one or two more abilities to slate. I will take the time though to say that I find Multiscale is to 25f as Magic Bounce/Regenerator/Battle Armor would be to 25w; it is an ability that in theory has some weak coordination, but that I am sure in practice will not actually work as we intend. Sure, it synergizes with recovery - most abilities do, as not being dead is a powerful bonus to any ability that rewards keeping a thing active. But let's look at Dragonite - a fellow frequently offensive 'mon with a devastating 4x weakness for Multiscale to patch up. Dragonite gets Roost, has way more BST to play with, has a frankly stupid movepool, and has a similarly hard-to-beat offensive typing. And yet in modern meta, Dragonite is UUBL and frequently doesn't bother with the recovery. I personally find the idea of this "buying us one turn to set-up a boosting move" to be suuuuuuper tenuous, and also worry it doesn't do enough if Dragonite isn't seen at all in the meta. We do have an arguably better typing, but I think we need a bit more oomph out of our ability.

I also think the panic over Merciless, Sniper, and No Guard is overstated. As several folks have mentioned - we have a starter BST! We're competing in a meta full of legendaries, UBs, and CAPmons that either have pseudo-legendary BSTs or truly bonkers movepools and abilities. We need to go a little nuts.
 

jas61292

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While not necessarily my favorite option, I actually want to second Deck Knight with regard to Merciless. I think it is disingenuous to pretend this ability is some offensive juggernaut that makes us unstoppable. Simply put, a crit later is weaker than two hits, one now, one later. This is especially true when each of those hits could still potentially crit anyways.

There are only two real uses for this ability: wall breaking and late game cleaning. The former role only really works if you are facing walls walls with recovery options, and the crit let's you 2hko when you could not previously. Without recovery, attacking immediately is usually better to wear them down for teammates. And without the precisely specific change in damage, the effect is irrelevant. If you already 2hko, it is meaningless, and if you still don't 2hko, the effect is minimal, as you are just relying on toxic to wear them down, just like any pokemon can do. Now, as for the role of cleaner, that is where the ability shines. Let the rest of your team help you spread poison, to set up CAP25f as your win condition. And you know what? There is nothing wrong with that. Unless we really inflate the offense, it's not like we are just going to sweep through everything without effort. It's a late game win condition, no more inherently powerful than any other.

Again, I'm not saying that this ability is favorite, but I think the assumptions being made about it are off base and harmful to our discussions.
 
Multiscale
The difference between Dragonite and 25f with Multiscale is that Dragonite with only Z-Fly cannot break things as often as it would like. It also is weak to rocks, hurting it more than other Multiscale Pokémon could. Dragonite also would be seen a lot more often if Zygarde wasn’t as good as it was. Fire/Ground also is much better STAB coverage. Finally, Dragon/Flying does not have nearly as many switch ins on type alone. Most notably, Dragonite is weak to the ever common Fairy and Ice types. While we are neutral to Ice and have a quad water weakness, we resist Fairy. We have a total of 2 weaknesses versus Dragonite’s 4. Overall, comparing 25f Multiscale to Dragonite is hogwash. Hell, we could even do a special attacker for 25f Multiscale if we so wanted to.
 

Magic Mayhem Maiden

formerly CorruptionInTheGovernment
The difference between Dragonite and 25f with Multiscale is that Dragonite with only Z-Fly cannot break things as often as it would like. It also is weak to rocks, hurting it more than other Multiscale Pokémon could. Dragonite also would be seen a lot more often if Zygarde wasn’t as good as it was. Fire/Ground also is much better STAB coverage. Finally, Dragon/Flying does not have nearly as many switch ins on type alone. Most notably, Dragonite is weak to the ever common Fairy and Ice types. While we are neutral to Ice and have a quad water weakness, we resist Fairy. We have a total of 2 weaknesses versus Dragonite’s 4. Overall, comparing 25f Multiscale to Dragonite is hogwash. Hell, we could even do a special attacker for 25f Multiscale if we so wanted to.
How does being weak to rocks help Multiscale? It still breaks our ability, and considering that we are a offensive mon, we won't have that much defense, so it doesn't really help us to not be weak to rocks. Also, it's only 1/8 more damage from rocks that Dragonite is taking. I'm not sure if being weak to water and ground is better than ice and fairy, because there is still rain teams (I think) and there are 3 water type pokemons in A+ right now, all being attackers. And ground is pretty detrimental like counterarguments for Grass/Electric said, with EQ being one of the best moves, and Zygarde. Also, Dragonite has 600 BST, while we only have a max of 535 BST.
 
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Magic Mayhem Maiden

formerly CorruptionInTheGovernment
I really do like Technician for 25f. It might be a problem because of 2 different moves listed above, but we can lower the Atk down. We can technically (haha) go mixed to lower stats for both sides and still keep defenses low for a different, unpredictable mon. Unlike Skill Link (who even suggested Skill Link when there are no STAB multi hit moves?), there are a lot of moves, but unlike crit moves, we don't have to boost everything and have 180 BP moves. If we take this way, we could have an offensive utility mon, with speed control and phasing included, while deal decent damage. Heck, we could possibly go for trapping and chip damage :/
 

Frostbiyt

Not Exactly Helping
I really do like Technician for 25f. It might be a problem because of 2 different moves listed above, but we can lower the Atk down. We can technically (haha) go mixed to lower stats for both sides and still keep defenses low for a different, unpredictable mon. Unlike Skill Link (who even suggested Skill Link when there are no STAB multi hit moves?), there are a lot of moves, but unlike crit moves, we don't have to boost everything and have 180 BP moves. If we take this way, we could have an offensive utility mon, with speed control and phasing included, while deal decent damage. Heck, we could possibly go for trapping and chip damage :/
Not sure why you brought up Skill Link in the first place since it hasn't had any support in a while, but you are also just wrong: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Multi-strike_move#List_of_multi-strike_moves
 
How does being weak to rocks help Multiscale? It still breaks our ability, and considering that we are a offensive mon, we won't have that much defense, so it doesn't really help us to not be weak to rocks. Also, it's only 1/8 more damage from rocks that Dragonite is taking. I'm not sure if being weak to water and ground is better than ice and fairy, because there is still rain teams (I think) and there are 3 water type pokemons in A+ right now, all being attackers. And ground is pretty detrimental like counterarguments for Grass/Electric said, with EQ being one of the best moves, and Zygarde. Also, Dragonite has 600 BST, while we only have a max of 535 BST.
While it still breaks Multiscale, Offensive Pokemon weak to Rocks often are a major dent in their viability. Not a dealbreaker, but a dent. Also, rain is meant to beat us, so that’s a moot point or even a pro in our favor. Next, while there are multiple waters that are good, there are many more Pokémon that run HP Ice at minimum. Also, a Ground weakness does hurt, but there are two Pokémon who use Ground STAB, Zygarde and Colossoil. On other things, depending on stats, we don’t crumple to things like Earth Power Heatran, HP Ground Jumbao and EQ Paj And Revenankh. We also have STABs against Heatran and Jumbao.
 
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concerning merciless, I have the impression that people are actually fearing toxic more than merciless itself, especially when looking at arguments like "pyroark is shut down by toxic so merciless is broken and ruin our check and counter list". cap25f will get toxic any way and it will be using it whatever is the ability, because they are nearly no downside of using toxic on that mon (expect peraps if we give him simple, because setup + toxic is less good, even if zygard uses that). merciless only gives a boost of 1.5 on poisoned opponent. that's only 0.2 damage output more than sheer force (i'm using the comparaison with sheer force because no one said that ability was broken and everyone seems to think that is it balanced). if you think that our check can't hold x1.5 hits, there litle chances they can hold x1.3...

and don't forget that if we have merciless, we don't want the team to spread any other status, which is an hard limitation that you can add to the starter stats. That means no para to help us if we are slow, no burning fire moves, etc.

so to answer drapion, the swich-in of merciless-cap25f would be quite the same as random-ability-cap25f and probably similar to heatran switch-in since this mon is already using the fire/ground/toxic combo.
 

Dogfish44

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concerning merciless, I have the impression that people are actually fearing toxic more than merciless itself, especially when looking at arguments like "pyroark is shut down by toxic so merciless is broken and ruin our check and counter list". cap25f will get toxic any way and it will be using it whatever is the ability, because they are nearly no downside of using toxic on that mon (expect peraps if we give him simple, because setup + toxic is less good, even if zygard uses that). merciless only gives a boost of 1.5 on poisoned opponent. that's only 0.2 damage output more than sheer force (i'm using the comparaison with sheer force because no one said that ability was broken and everyone seems to think that is it balanced). if you think that our check can't hold x1.5 hits, there litle chances they can hold x1.3...

and don't forget that if we have merciless, we don't want the team to spread any other status, which is an hard limitation that you can add to the starter stats. That means no para to help us if we are slow, no burning fire moves, etc.

so to answer drapion, the swich-in of merciless-cap25f would be quite the same as random-ability-cap25f and probably similar to heatran switch-in since this mon is already using the fire/ground/toxic combo.
This is a decent line of argument, but it's phrased pretty roughly. I'm just gonna rephrase a bit of this and add my own points ^^;

The primary line of argument against Merciless is that it's an automatic Crit on anything Poisoned. As such, when 25f switches in against a Poison or Steel type, which get forced out by our STAB options, we just use Toxic and the switch-in gets set up for Merciless. Even if following that we get forced out, the next time 25f switches in against a Poison/Steel type and forces it out, we just attack and get a free critical hit on whichever Pokemon the opponent is using to tank 25f's hits. This is compounded by the fact that Toxic means that the switch in will not be able to realistically stall out 25f through recovery, since Toxic damage will eventually rack up too far. At least, this is how I've roughly seen the argument laid out.

But... I don't completely buy it. First of all, let's look at Sheer Force. Now, Sheer Force's x1.3 is not as strong as a Critical Hit's x1.5, but it's not so much lower that it doesn't make an impact. And yes, I'll admit quite freely that Crits are pretty strong - especially when we're looking at Physical 25f, who enjoys ignoring Intimidate. But then Sheer Force also enables you free access to Life Orb (Merciless is subject to the usual recoil from that, or is otherwise weaker when it comes to it's item choice, bringing the two closer together).

Now, of course, one of the big selling points on Merciless is that it's damned near impossible to stall it out, by virtue of Toxic making stalling it out impossible. However... there is no particular reason that 25f can't do this *exact same thing* when using, say, Sheer Force. Use Toxic on the first time something switches in, and on the second time that switch in is massively hampered in it's ability to stall us out in response whilst having to eat a massively powerful hit. Either way, 25f is going to have the exact same sort of response regardless of access to Merciless or any other ability, with the only difference being the method by which we apply our damage multiplier.

(I would point out that I think the strategy of 'Use Toxic' is a little bit flawed due to it's inherent reliance on perfect prediction as to if an opponent is going to switch out to a poisonable target, or stick in and abuse the weaknesses of Fire/Ground as a typing)

I'm also going to make a general point here: our ability choices impact our strongest power level, but not our weakest power level. We can always tone down a Pokemon if we think it's overwhelming during stats and movepool, but we can't go back and pick a stronger ability. We've demonstrated a capacity to adapt when we decided against Jumbao having access to Flamethrower/Weather Ball, and I think we are capable of balancing down. Remember - 535 BST limit means that if we think we're too weak, we don't have the ability to create a 600 BST mon with a weaker ability like we normally do. Better to aim high and balance on this CAP, in my mind.
 

Magic Mayhem Maiden

formerly CorruptionInTheGovernment
Not sure why you brought up Skill Link in the first place since it hasn't had any support in a while, but you are also just wrong: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Multi-strike_move#List_of_multi-strike_moves
As said by Snake_Rattler on Page 7 - "Skill Link: Fits concept, but I'm not sure about the actualization of it. Some of our checks and counters get mauled over by Skill Link-boosted moves, and while I'm not exactly against having coverage for these Pokemon, a cumulatively 125BP mutli-hit coverage move might not be the most balanced plan." And okay, I'm wrong, but still, there are only 4 realistic moves that Cap 25f can use, compared to the huge list of viable Technician boosted moves.
While it still breaks Multiscale, Offensive Pokemon weak to Rocks often are a major dent in their viability. Not a dealbreaker, but a dent. Also, rain is meant to beat us, so that’s a moot point or even a pro in our favor. Next, while there are multiple waters that are good, there are many more Pokémon that run HP Ice at minimum. Also, a Ground weakness does hurt, but there are two Pokémon who use Ground STAB, Zygarde and Colossoil. On other things, depending on stats, we don’t crumple to things like Earth Power Heatran, HP Ground Jumbao and EQ Paj And Revenankh. We also have STABs against Heatran and Jumbao.
I will give up on weakness argument. However, I think you are overselling the usefulness of not being weak to rocks. Sure, you take 1/8 less damage, but you're also breaking your ability, and then it becomes pointless. Not to mention Cap 25f is still susceptible to all forms of spikes, immediately making it fail. This is not only about HP, but about ability. If we are tempted to switch into rocks, why are we even using Multiscale? Also, we only have 535 BST to work with, not with 600. We can't make Cap 25f tanky and hit hard at the same time (I mean, we could, but it'll be mediocre at best). I'm really not sure if we are going to learn much from choosing Multiscale. We could do setup, but setup doesn't help us learn. All out attacker doesn't either. It's just a generically good ability.
 

TraitorQueenRho

Banned deucer.
Going through my favorite suggestions and justifying them.

1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?
Mold Breaker lets us hit Latios and Mega Venusaur with our Ground and Fire moves for better damage. That helps us break through Venusaur-Heatran defensive cores. That also gives us more threat vs stall, against Magic Bounce and Unaware users. The ability fits with our Fire/Ground typing because Levitate, Flash Fire, and Thick Fat are all abilities that affect our STAB moves. Ground typing means we're likely to get access to some type of hazards, which again helps vs Magic Bounce users.

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?
Poison Heal gives us passive recovery that helps mitigate Stealth Rocks. That could take advantage of STAB draining moves and defensive status moves to give us even more longevity. Those may not be especially direct interactions, but that passive recovery would help us use our movepool to maximum potential by freeing us up to use more offensive and utility moves instead of having to spam recovery moves. So in that case, giving us a defensive ability frees us up for more direct playmaking via our movepool.

3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?
No Guard makes us an offensive Pokemon that can threaten multiple different types of status from both damaging moves and status moves. The Grass/Electric typing helps execute this role because there are many Grass status moves and some powerful Electric moves with status-inducing secondary effects. There is not a single offensive Pokemon in the metagame that threatens multiple types of status on a single set, and that would give us a role that no other Grass-type has.

Great discussion, everyone. :)
 
I will give up on weakness argument. However, I think you are overselling the usefulness of not being weak to rocks. Sure, you take 1/8 less damage, but you're also breaking your ability, and then it becomes pointless. Not to mention Cap 25f is still susceptible to all forms of spikes, immediately making it fail. This is not only about HP, but about ability. If we are tempted to switch into rocks, why are we even using Multiscale? Also, we only have 535 BST to work with, not with 600. We can't make Cap 25f tanky and hit hard at the same time (I mean, we could, but it'll be mediocre at best). I'm really not sure if we are going to learn much from choosing Multiscale. We could do setup, but setup doesn't help us learn. All out attacker doesn't either. It's just a generically good ability.
Stealth Rock sucks, yes. However, I don’t think that the fact that we are neutral to them instead of weak to them should be ignored. Also, I never said that we were tempted to switch into rocks. I simply said that as an offensive Pokemon, a neutrality to rocks is better than a weakness to rocks. Toxic Spikes are godawful in the meta, and we lose to the major spike setters, Argho and Ash-Gren, by typing as is. Sticky Webs are also a joke, even if Ribombee is hot right now. Also, we absolutely can hit hard and be bulky at the same time. Even if we don't have a base Attack comparable to the likes of Weavile or Special Attack of Naganadel, setup still can easily make us hit hard. Also, Jumbao, although out of our BST range, proves we can be bulky, hit hard and be relatively fast. Hell, you could get to starter level stats by simply removing fifteen from HP and Defense, and Jumbao would largely be the same, even if less effective.
 
I've been mainly lurking since Ive last posted (and I had a whole other ordeal to settle lol), but I just want to pitch my thoughts on the current abilities.

For 25f, Merciless has definitely grown on me as I've read. I really like the idea of a balance breaker that can ignore positive stat changes of opposing mons (i.e. CM, Coil, Bulk Up) and ignore it's own negative stat changes (Intimidate, Overheat drops). I do not think this would be broken, we can adjust it to be balanced via it's stats (perhaps maybe average offenses) and moves. Merciless is very unexplored, and when paired with an actual offensive mon, this could allow us to find a unique niche never presented in the CAP metagame. The only mon that can reliably force crits is Kingdra, and even that's kinda gimmicky. Pair it with Toxic Spikes and Toxic ofc, we'd have a pretty unique offensive threat. That would be a great ability to explore the crit mechanics reliably.

Tbh, Mold Breaker imo is kinda underwhelming, yea it's nice to hit levitate mons and ignore Mega Venusaur's Thick Fat, but in general, I feel as though its a shallow ability in short.

For 25w, I'm actually surprised Multiscale hasn't come up for it. I saw someone argue it for 25f, but our defensive Water type could actually make great use out of this! Being hazard weak is a limitation, but the ability to take half-damage from any one move at full health sounds great for our planned defensive utility. We'd be able to blanket check a lot of top threats, and be an emergency stop to various sweepers and wallbreakers (especially with the ability to boost). That would work very well if we get a decent form of recovery, and perhaps pairing with a move to cancel stat boosts. On top of the probable Scald, we'd have a pretty dangerous defensive threat, especially for a starter. Otherwise, I still like the idea of Corrosion as well.

25g is what I've been honestly scratching my head on the most while reading through. That's not one innate ability I fully support, because I think overall we can do better. As of currently, Galvanize has started to grow on me a bit, same for Reckless. It's especially tough because I don't think we defined what exactly we're trying to specialize for, reachzero if you'd be able to perhaps gauge a general direction, that would be awesome. I know you personally have put your hand in the hat for Galvanize, but I wouldn't mind you expanding on how that helps us "specialize" in something, and what that specialization is.
 
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SOOOO yesterday I wrote up this really awesome, long, complex summary of why CAP25f should have Technician but because I listed moves it got deleted even though alllllllll of these posts mentioning (that poisoning move starting with a T) are going unscathed, but that's not by business.

Ultimately, I wanted to point out that Technician would be amazing because it gives us unique access to powerful STAB speed control options, along with a slew of coverage options with awesome effects that have never been explored. Using the speed-control STAB options boosted by Technician would give CAP25f a unique niche as far as speed control goes, and we could worry less about giving it a ton of speed and give it more bulk and/or power to actually be viable in CAP OU.

Plus, unlike Merciless/Sniper/Super Luck, we don't have to worry about a) screwing our checks/counters over as hard and b) relying on luck/hax/poisoning the opponent in order to be effective. With Technician, send CAP25f out, and BAM, it's immediately useful without having to set up.

Also, Skill Link is a total waste of time on CAP25f, and even the critical hit abilities would be significantly more interesting and effective. The only STAB option that gets boosted has imperfect accuracy, and if we want a powerful multi-hit option, Technician works better here too, since it boosts the trademark move of the Cubone line to power beyond that of a five-hit (insert ground multi-hit STAB option here.)
 

Frostbiyt

Not Exactly Helping
SOOOO yesterday I wrote up this really awesome, long, complex summary of why CAP25f should have Technician but because I listed moves it got deleted even though alllllllll of these posts mentioning (that poisoning move starting with a T) are going unscathed, but that's not by business.
There are certain moves that almost every Pokemon gets such as Toxic and Hidden Power that you can mention in this thread. The rules should be more clear imo, but that's why people can do that.
 
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