CAP 25 - Part 7 - Competitive Ability Discussion

[Mr Holiday]

Oh, wow. People actually read my post.

Steelworker: This ability is...confusing to say the least. While I do understand having neutral coverage, Steel-type coverage really only helps against Clefable and Mega Crucibelle on our threatlist. However, they're already hit neutrally by our STAB moves, and it doesn't exactly help anywhere else. I honestly don't see how this ability is helpful at this point in the project.

This looks good on paper until you think about what Electric STAB and Steel STAB do in the CAP format. Steel and Electric have terrible offensive synergy in CAP that Grass doesn't do near enough to rectify. Think of it this way: Magnezone is already doing nothing right now in the CAP metagame. Magnezone with Grass STAB instead of Magnet Pull would be infinitely worse, even if you fixed Magnezone's awful speed stat as part of the exchange. At the point where you improve Magnezone's speed stat, our stat limit as a starter won't let CAPg be as good as this downgraded version of a mediocre mon.

The thought process behind Steelworker was simply to define what our niche is. Currently (unless I'm mistaken), the only user of Steelworker is Dhelmise, which isn't exactly a competitive behemoth. However, the concept of a Pokemon with three STABs is, to me, one worth a bit of exploration. It's a niche that isn't yet explored, a strong offensive Grass Type with wide neutral coverage, that can serve as a sweeper or wallbreaker, depending on what we decide to do with it. Unless I missed something, we never defined what the "niche" for CAP25g is, and this does so handily. It's something no one else does well.

Steel STAB may not take a huge chunk out our threat list, but that doesn't mean it's useless. It gives us something worthwhile to do against a wide array of opposing Grass, Ice, and Fairy Types, hitting the former for neutral damage and the latter two Super Effectively. It cuts the list of Pokemon that resist our STAB attacks down to, essentially, just the things that are supposed to counter us anyway (I'll double check that tonight. Running late to work to post this XD), and only removes two Pokemon from our threat list, which can easily be accounted for once we determine our Physical/Special bias and Movepool.

Steelworker isn't the only option I like. I'm also in favor of Galvanize, as I've said several times since page one. Honestly, at this point, I'd probably pick Galvanize over Steelworker myself. I was simply trying to get a word in edgewise, since I've been trying to participate in the conversation since the first page, and was honestly starting to think I was wasting my time.

As I said, I will double check the change in resistances later, and address the post relating to my suggestion of Infiltrator for CAP25w. I really should have left ten minutes ago, so...yeah.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm pretty sure the thing I said about resists is accurate, though I could still be wrong. As for Infiltrator:

What Substitute users do we significantly affect with Water/Bug, though? Zygarde? Necturna? Pyroak? Switching in to any of those, with a hope to deal normal or resisted damage and pray for a 1 in 3 burn is frankly a ridiculous concept for a defensive mon.

1) That was just an example/passive-aggressive protest against the somewhat draconian (in my opinion) rule against mentioning Moves at all. I would imagine even a bulky Water Type would have a few moves that would be improved by access to Infiltrator.

2) So those are the only three Substitute users in the CAP Metagame? I'll be the first person to admit, I don't have the metagame memorized top to bottom, but that seems unlikely. And while our STAB moves might not hit everything perfectly, that's what coverage is for. Whose to say what we'll be able to hit when it's all said and done? Between coverage Moves, STAB Moves, and Status Moves, I can see a wide variety of scenarios in which being able to get past a Substitute could be beneficial. I can't actually discus what those scenarios might be because I'll get censored, but use your imagination.

3) Infiltrator also bypasses Light Screen, Reflect and Safegaurd. While skipping screens would be more useful for a sweeper/wall breaker, skipping Safegaurd would be a situational but highly effective way for a bulky Water Type to deal with other bulky Pokemon especially if we do go the more passive route.


One of the biggest concerns that was raised early on in regards to CAP25w was differentiating it from other bulky Water Types. There are plenty of solid Waters in the game that take a hit and survive to set-up/inflict Status/wall/whatever it is they do. How many of them can hit things through a Substitute? None, that I know of. If we decide to go the passive Status route, it lets us use Status through Substitute. If we decide to phaze for passive damage, it lets use phazing moves through Substitute. If we decide to give it some offensive presence, it lets us hit through Substitute without having to break them first. Is it situational? Yes. Does it let CAP25w do something no other Bulky water does? Yes.

 

[Dogfish44]

Well, I might have done a happy dance due to Speed Boost getting on t'good list.

Of the 6 being interrogated, just one thing for me to talk about;

Prankster

This one I'm less keen on. At base, this also benefits from the same sort of moves that Berserk does. The concept was about exploring the maximum potential of an ability. The problem is Tomohawk. In order to proceed with exploring the maximum potential of Prankster, you have to come to one of two conclusions.

Counclusion 1: Tomohawk is the maximum potential of Prankster.
Counclusion 2: Tomohawk is not the maximum potential of Prankster.

If conclusion 1 is true, then this project accomplishes nothing. We already know the information we could gleam from it, because not only is it a CAP we already assembled, but its frequent play means we have almost 3 full generations of data to work with.

If conclusion 2 is true, it would be incredibly irresponsible to pursue the maximum potential of Prankster, since Prankster is ridiculous in the CAP metagame even not at its full potential.

Either way, I can't see anything we could learn from exploring Prankster that would actually be worth learning.

I feel as if this is a false dichotomy when it comes to Prankster for 25g - it's very similar to the line of argument that people have used against Triage, specifically with regards to Revenankh.

My largest disagreement is the implication that there is only one way to reach Prankster's maximum potential - we know that abilities can be actualised in a variety of ways, with a good example being how Magic Guard is actualised both offensively (such as by regular Alakazam) and defensively (such as by Clefable). As such, I would posit that Conclusion 1 should read, "Tomohawk represents one of many ways in which the maximum potential of Prankster can be reached". Which, of course, doesn't particularly restrict us.

And, if we take the stance that Tomohawk does not represent any of the best ways to maximise Prankster's potential, and that we do not want to break past that power level - then we're more than capable of doing that. Given that giving 25g access to Prankster will not result in 25g having access to every status move (even if that would increase potential), I'm fairly confident that we can balance. After all, note that part of the Concept is about making sure we understand what would be going 'too far'.

---

Alright, now that I've got absolutely no clue what I want for 25w, a comment on an ability that's floated around a little bit... and one of my slightly derranged ideas.

Magic Guard
Honestly this one's growing on me (like a rash). 25w's biggest weakness as a defensive Pokemon is that it suffers a lot of Stealth Rock damage as it switches in. Magic Guard literally puts a stop to that, and I think because of that, you get an ability which synergises with Hazard Removal rather neatly. I know some people have mentioned that Magic Guard has a lower pool of synergies, but by no means do I reckon that it's non-existant - indeed, I would wager quite happily that it actually synergises with a lot more than the offensive abilities that synergise with only a handful of moves (Triage, Reckless), that are regardless rather popular.

I also disagree with the general calls that Magic Guard would be overpowered. As a comparison point, Alakazam (500 BST), who's offensive prowess is literally outside the reach of our starter framework CAPs, sits quite comfortably in UUBL - not exactly the realm of the overwhelmingly powerful.

Fluffy
I mentioned this slightly tiredly on Discord last night, but the idea has been sticking with me all day, so I want to at least get it off my proverbial chest so that I can think about other things.

25w's Switch In List is, generally speaking, 'Pokemon with Earthquake', but a lot have alternative coverage or STAB options, which tend towards being Contact moves. Fluffy should give us the ability to switch in multiple times to Pokemon that we should be able to, notably including Zygarde (even with Outrage), Revenankh, Colossoil, and Mega Swampert. It also allows us to much more effectively pressure Hawlucha, Mega Crucibelle, and Tapu Bulu, by signifigantly reducing their damage outputs against us, thus preventing us from being forced out quite as easily as our typing already causes us to be.

(Also I'm not sure why Fluffy is on the 'additional ban' list, given that it not only has the standard synergies that defensive abilities provide - in particular a good set of synergies with moves that increase Special Defense to counteract the fact that contact is mostly physical - but in addition it has synergies with moves which either weaken or literally block Fire-type moves)

 

[hawk1113]

Personaly, I'm thrilled to see Galvanize, Triage, and Speed Boost as probable slated abilities for 25G. I think all of them tie into the idea of Speed Control; Grass tends to be known as a slow and steady typing, and this gives us a chance at powerful priority to pair with pivoting skills and utility, or a much better sweeper/aggressive pivot than Emergency Exit would offer us. The question is, what else do I want to see of the abilities on the slate?

I do want to offer a defense of Regenerator. On its face this seems bad; Regenerator is an ability already on not one but two grass types in the CAP Meta, and we've also seen it on three different CAP-relevant bulky waters and even seen it offensively on Tornadus-T and non-mega Crucibelle. How can we differentiate ourselves from all of these 'mons? The answer is actually one that also offers us a perfect way to fulfill our concept - in all of Pokemon, we have never seen a Pokemon with Regenerator and a STAB Pivoting Move. It gives us a unique opportunity to create a powerful threatening pivot, utility Pokemon, and scout that uses Regenerator in a different and more powerful way than any existing pokemon. While I'm not sure it is something I love as much as I love those top three, I definitely think it deserves to be slated. Strong Pivoting also is good at improving our matchup versus our Pressure list (as the pivoting move in question would allow us to whack them for neutral or SE damage and get out into a more defensively suited ally) without threatening overpowering our checks and counters, which is a real risk for some of the other suggested abilities.

None of the other abilities grab me and personally, if the slate was these four I'd be happy. If we must have a fifth, it's between Steelworker and Reckless.

Steelworker clearly fulfills our concept; it works in concert with a move or move to improve our coverage versus what we've decided is a key matchup (Clefable). Steel "STAB" also gives us another route to have priority, which can be helpful in batting cleanup or revenge on fast Pokemon on our pressure list like Stratagem, M-Diancie, and Crucibelle - while we do obviously already threaten these with our Grass STAB, they are so fast and so powerful that having more options against them, especially priority, could be a big help. More obscurely and beyond those obvious matchup improvements, we have the potential of using STAB steel retaliation moves in concert with aggressive recovery for a much better "berserker" build, and the option of using a STAB trapping move to take advantage of our ability to switch-in on and generally make miserable the bulky waters of the tier. It's extremely boring and obvious - but no so boring and obvious that it writes our movepool stage, and it's a worthy fifth ability. In terms of messing with our Checks and Counters, it does also potentially make us more dangerous to Jumbao but imo, that's actually a win and something I think we should consider.​

​

Reckless is a distant second place to Steelworker. I have no doubt that the extra power helps improve our matchup against some defensive mons or ensures that much of our pressure list is just near-suicidal to try to come in on us. It fulfills our concept and we'd be the first Grass and Electric type with the ability, having a definite niche. And most Reckless 'mons don't have access to reliable recovery - so thats something we can for sure explore to further emphasize our concept. as it is a highlight of the grass typing The problem is that it is extremely prescriptive. The moves it pairs with are obvious; it pidgeonholes us into a physical attacker that is quickly worn down. And we don't really have much fun conversation around coverage, as most of the reckless-eligible coverage (Fire, Fighting, Rock, and Flying) would make us hugely threatening to multiple checks and counters.​

I don't have a strong feeling on most of the rest of the list, but I do have to say in thread (and not just in Discord) that I am strongly against Berserk. It's prescriptive in forcing us towards the special side of the spectrum, it doesn't actively and directly improve our matchups in a clean way that interacts with our movepool. What I mean is that most of the "swtich-ins" we freely come in on are defensive mons that are unlikely to hit us, or will be hitting us with non-attack damage (Toxic, Burns) that won't trigger Berserk. Our pressure list is hitting us insanely hard, far too hard to reliably tank hits and heal it off to build boosts. Mostly though, its simply too little payoff for the amount of setup required. We don't have an amazing defensive typing and don't have a shot at a massive BST total to cover for that; there is a massive amount of the meta that will hit us neutrally for 60%+ of our health given simple dummy calcs, so even with recovery we're going to lose the race and struggle to get multiple boosts. There is a powerful new recovery move that also walls certain attackers - but that move is so centralizing, so dangerous, that I don't think we'd really want to risk putting it into the meta. And that leaves this build a gimick without the tools to really flourish in the meta.

 

[gibygiby]

Debating the interrogation list. There are 3 points in the argument for No Guard:

1. Make traditional status moves that are slightly inaccurate become 100% accurate
2. Make nontraditional status moves that are nonviable due to inaccuracy become 100% accurate
3. Use attacking moves that are avoided due to inaccuracy and make them 100% accurate

Point 1, although convenient, is not good enough on its own to merit the ability.
Point 2 is actually quite limited, as the list just includes sleep and confusion inducing moves. This point also applies to anything and doesn't strongly correlate with 25g specifically (same goes with point 1). On the other hand, this point does provide a niche that we are looking for 25g.

Point 3 is the meat, as it is the only way of tying the ability to 25g specifically. The problem is that most of the inaccurate moves we may want only offer more power, which can be overcome with stats (i.e. Thunderbolt with a high Sp Atk is better than Thunder). HOWEVER, there are moves (although few) whose secondary effects combined with inaccuracy provide something not seen in the meta game when combined with No Guard: 100% accurate strong attacks with reliably secondary effects (more reliably than Serene Grace). Some of these 25g gets STAB on. This makes No Guard a legitimate consideration for both viability and as a niche for 25g.

The Takeaway: Point 3 is enough to warrant No Guard for consideration as an ability and when combined with points 1 and 2 make it a strong option for us to go with.

My Opinion on the Matter...

No Guard enables interesting and viable strategies and a couple of potential niches for 25g. I have supported it before but my research has left me a little disappointing as to the lack of options. I still think No Guard should be on the slate and I am still rooting for it, but it is definitely not my favorite.

 

[Pipotchi]

I do want to offer a defense of Regenerator. On its face this seems bad; Regenerator is an ability already on not one but two grass types in the CAP Meta, and we've also seen it on three different CAP-relevant bulky waters and even seen it offensively on Tornadus-T and non-mega Crucibelle. How can we differentiate ourselves from all of these 'mons? The answer is actually one that also offers us a perfect way to fulfill our concept - in all of Pokemon, we have never seen a Pokemon with Regenerator and a STAB Pivoting Move. It gives us a unique opportunity to create a powerful threatening pivot, utility Pokemon, and scout that uses Regenerator in a different and more powerful way than any existing pokemon. While I'm not sure it is something I love as much as I love those top three, I definitely think it deserves to be slated. Strong Pivoting also is good at improving our matchup versus our Pressure list (as the pivoting move in question would allow us to whack them for neutral or SE damage and get out into a more defensively suited ally) without threatening overpowering our checks and counters, which is a real risk for some of the other suggested abilities.

I actually agree with you here. Regen is imo a standout option for 25g. Grass and Electric types both have major benefits when it comes to being pivots, and pivoting is something an otherwise very neutral Grass/Electric pokemon can excel at. And that neutrality works to its benefit also- we have seen the positives of neutral, often mono-typing pokemon working as pivots because the lack of weaknesses allows them to blanket check with stats alone (such as Alomomola and Tangrowth), and Grass/Electric is wonderful for that also. Its weak to Bug, Fire, Ice, and Poison, which really isnt too bad with Fire and Ice as the two types that are commonly used with some firepower behind them.
Regenerator takes advantage of the following moves:
-Pivoting moves (as mentioned above)
-Recoil moves (of which we have dual STAB options) as well as moves that cost HP
-Team healing and cleric support
-any moves that synergize with pivoting- this includes neutralizing moves that drop stats, drain hp, afflict status and put the opponent in a position where they need to switch

The question of "specialist" comes to mind as a counterpoint against Regenerator. I think when you look at Regenerators that grass already has available, you can always expect an Assault Vest. Perhaps here is our chance to focus on the utility aspect of the Regenerator, heavily leaning on status moves, controlling the field by playing the hazard game, or even the offensive aspect. There's a lot of room to explore with Regenerator that even popular pokemon like Tornadus-T doesnt cover, and as long as we pick a direction and stick to it there wont be a worry of having overlap with Tangrowth or Amoonguss past being Grass types.


I prefer it to Galvanize and Triage because it has a lot more interesting things to work with when it comes to both direct and indirect interactions- Galv in particular might seem like new ground but it only has 1 viable special move and priority is the only major sell for the physical side- its other moves are just more powerful versions of existing electric type attacks. the amount of things to work with is pretty small.

 

[Frostbiyt]

So I was thinking about No Guard last night and wondering why people like it for this concept so much, so I went on Discord and asked about it. All of the moves listed as synergy could be put into a few categories:

1. Status moves with less than perfect accuracy, like Toxic

2. Higher BP versions of other 100% accurate moves

3. High, often very high BP moves with powerful secondary effects

4. Sleep moves with certain benefits over Spore

I'll get back to this specific list in a bit, but for now it seems to me that a lot of people are content with just throwing out abilities that have a lot of individual moves that synergize with the ability, but I don't think that's the whole point of the concept. It's not just about finding moves that benefit from an ability, it is about Actualizing an Ability Astoundingly. I think that it is about a movepool coming together that is greater than just the sum of it parts. Since this is kind of nebulous, I'll use an example. So that it doesn't look like I'm just trying to prop up another 25g ability by knocking down No Guard, I'll use Sniper as an example of fitting this concept.

Sniper has a couple types of moves that it synergizes with, those being attacks with a +1 crit rate, a regular move and numerous Z moves that boost crit rate by +2. If this is where the snyergy ended, Sniper would not really fit the concept in spirit. But the "greater than the sum of its parts" thing comes in when you look at how these moves help each other to enable the Pokemon to get more out of its ability. That is of course, using a +2 crit raiser and a +1 crit attack in conjunction with each other to get a 100% crit rate. That is the most obvious and significant example of that concept, but there are other minor examples. For example, since Sniper is inherently a wallbreaking ability, 25g's Fire/Ground typing give it an excellent wallbreaking STAB combination. Additionally, the fact that Sniper enables a large amount of damage output from a very oppressive STAB combination means that it will likely have a low Atk stat relative to other wallbreakers, which would free up a lot of stat points that could then be used to allow for special attacking sets, allowing 25g to get even more out of its ability. One last minor thing enabled by Sniper would be the ability to run weaker 100% crit moves and get extra power out of them without needing to set up first.

Synergy on that level is not something I see happening from No Guard. Let's get back to the list now and examine the movepool synergy offered by No Guard.

1. Status moves with less than perfect accuracy, like Toxic
This is just removing a minor annoyance and not really a significant advantage offered by No Guard.

2. Higher BP versions of other 100% accurate moves
There are two potential minor advantages I see from this. One is the capability to go with a lower offensive stat in order to achieve the same damage output. This frees up some stat points to be used for other things a la Sniper, but is even less significant due to freeing up fewer points and being utilized by a poorer offensive STAB combination. The other potential advantage is allowing 25g to deal more damage than would be possible with weaker moves given the stat limitations(ie max 126 Atk/SpA). If someone could show that this would both offer significant damage improvements(by turning key 2HKOs -> OHKOs and 3HKOs -> 2HKOs) without messing up our checks and counters, I would consider that a point towards No Guard.

3. High, often very high BP moves with powerful secondary effects
This is one of the more interesting possibilities, but because the one move in particular that is mentioned most often not only has a really good secondary effect, but also an even higher BP than other comparable attacks, it will either lead to 25g having a lower damage output overall(due to needing lower offensive stats because of the very powerful secondary effect) or be deemed too powerful for our stat limitations and be off the table.

4. Sleep moves with certain benefits over Spore
This is the big one that everyone likes to throw around and for good reason. A Sleep inducing move that almost nothing can absorb is very appealing. That's all that really needs to be said about this one, it is useful and it is enabled by No Guard. It's not that much better than Spore, but it does offer some distinct advantages over it.

OK, so we've got that list of individual types of moves that synergize with the ability, so let's look at whether or not these parts work together well. OK, so the takeaway from that list to me is that the most potential for No Guard is with sleep. Almost every Grass type in the meta walls Grass/Electric, so the ability to sleep Grass types is a good synergy between movepool and typing, but the synergy pretty much ends there. I've been thinking about it and there is almost nothing above the level of direct movepool-ability synergy and that is my problem with No Guard. It is an ability with no depth, nothing beneath the surface.

If someone thinks that they have something that would build upon No Guard and the moves it enables similar to what Sniper accomplishes, please reply to this post or @ me on Discord if you would need to polljump to explain your idea, but so far I have yet to see anything about No Guard apart from the superficial aspects of it.

 

[Quite Quiet]

For everyone who is favoring Sniper and/or Super Luck as abilities: what stops users from simply using Choice Band / Specs with Blaze instead? Unless the CAP is so incredibly weak that choice items doesn't help it (then 100% crits won't either) or it's movepool is so abyssmal it has no usable moves outside of the two (physical) high crit moves it gets STAB on, then a choiced set /will/ be a realistic option. Even in the case of Kingdra, which people keep bringing up, it's not a particularly good set and its Swift Swim set is far more usable and viable in general. Somebody earlier mentioned that crit-dra uses crits as set up because it has no other option, which is entirely the case.

There's a few other abilities suggested in this thread that makes me think Blaze becomes the better ability in a majority of the situations you'd want to use a Fire/Ground Pokemon in, but Sniper and Super Luck are the two that peopke have been aruing in favor of the most.

 

[LouisCyphre]

Comparing a Choice Band set with Sniper + Setup in specific: If you want to deal x1.5 damage from turn 1 and give up , rather than dealing x2.25 starting on turn 2, is there really any problem with that? Choosing between a choice set and a setup set is nothing new.

This should be clear: Super Luck and Sniper 25f are vastly different CAPs, at least as far as their damage profile goes.

 

[Frostbiyt]

For everyone who is favoring Sniper and/or Super Luck as abilities: what stops users from simply using Choice Band / Specs with Blaze instead? Unless the CAP is so incredibly weak that choice items doesn't help it (then 100% crits won't either) or it's movepool is so abyssmal it has no usable moves outside of the two (physical) high crit moves it gets STAB on, then a choiced set /will/ be a realistic option

First of all, variety in the sets it can viably run is a good thing, so I don't see how it being able to run a choice band is a knock against the ability. With Super Luck in particular, its primary set would likely be Super Luck + Scope Lens + High Crit Attacks which gives a 50% damage increase anyways, so the benefit from Band would be the ability to run higher BP moves at the cost of the benefits from critical hits(ignoring stat drops/boosts, ignoring screens, etc) and the ability to change moves.

With Sniper, a Band set would be worse in almost every way. It wouldn't get any of the bonuses provided by critical hits, do 1.5* less damage, and it would be locked into one move with the only advantage being higher damage output turn 1.

Even in the case of Kingdra, which people keep bringing up, it's not a particularly good set and its Swift Swim set is far more usable and viable in general. Somebody earlier mentioned that crit-dra uses crits as set up because it has no other option, which is entirely the case.

There's a few other abilities suggested in this thread that makes me think Blaze becomes the better ability in a majority of the situations you'd want to use a Fire/Ground Pokemon in, but Sniper and Super Luck are the two that peopke have been aruing in favor of the most.

Can you explain to me how using Blaze over Sniper would be better if the entire Pokemon is designed around that ability?

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

If we have a mon with an offensive stat spread, and 4* Weak to water is relying on being at 33% Health for its damage, it would take some Shuckle level offense to make Aqua Jet fail to force it out.

Mr Holiday, no, they are not the only users (there are 20 users of varying chance of appearance according to July 1760 CAPstats) , although I'm not sure that basing an ability on coverage moves and the ability to outspeed a Shift Gear Necturna or Dragon Dance Zygarde is something we should be expecting, STAB resist/neutral or no. Based on STABs, you are looking at Blacephalon, Alakazam-M, Gyarados-M, and Voodoom who are susceptible to it without often packing coverage which speaks for itself.

Inftrator is largely awful, Ninetales-A is rare and packs Freeze-dry and a decent speed tier, and Safeguard, Light Screen and Reflect just aren't used. Half The moves you wish to bypass with it din't exist in the meta, and the other half are effective against the type to use it.

A slow Fire/Ground with Snow Warning and Aurora Veil, sure. Prime target for an Infiltrator mon.

 

[Reviloja753]

an you explain to me how using Blaze over Sniper would be better if the entire Pokemon is designed around that ability?

His point is that it is not a good thing.

For 25f, I am liking Simple. Unlike most other abilities suggested for 25f (Tough Claws, Sniper, Super Luck, Sheer Force), it does not force our offensive bias one way or the other. There are a variety of boosting moves that can be used, letting our stats be extremely flexible. Finally, it would easily lose against Arghonaut, Tomohawk, and MLatis as well as still leaving us checked by Ash Gren. Therefore, Simple is balanced rather easily. Just don’t go insane with moves that give +2 as is and we’re fine. What Simple does that regular boosting moves do not is a certain move is a version of another’s effect without being tauntable, while the other is two regular boosting moves in one. Those two alone make a difference compared to other set up choices. Even just the first one alone gives a niche of boosting a stat only the likes of Auru and Zygarde boost.

 

[Deck Knight]

For everyone who is favoring Sniper and/or Super Luck as abilities: what stops users from simply using Choice Band / Specs with Blaze instead? Unless the CAP is so incredibly weak that choice items doesn't help it (then 100% crits won't either) or it's movepool is so abyssmal it has no usable moves outside of the two (physical) high crit moves it gets STAB on, then a choiced set /will/ be a realistic option. Even in the case of Kingdra, which people keep bringing up, it's not a particularly good set and its Swift Swim set is far more usable and viable in general. Somebody earlier mentioned that crit-dra uses crits as set up because it has no other option, which is entirely the case.

There's a few other abilities suggested in this thread that makes me think Blaze becomes the better ability in a majority of the situations you'd want to use a Fire/Ground Pokemon in, but Sniper and Super Luck are the two that peopke have been aruing in favor of the most.

Frostbiyt covered most of the particulars above.

Setup for 25f is a touchy subject. While I personally do think Fire/Ground is being vastly overrated contained within itself, Fire/Ground with ready access to a +2 boost is frightening. I would rather such boosts be situational and movepool focused, which is where Super Luck and Sniper excel. Sniper is very much more the setup-oriented ability, Super Luck is the weaker but much, much more flexible option. That said in matchup specific interactions these abilities fulfill the concept with a specific emphasis on movepool interaction, and do so in a way that cannot be replicated by selecting a different item choice with Blaze.

I'd also note both Sniper and Super Luck have movepool combinations that work with their special attacks too. If you switch your physical wall in expecting to stop 25f, a world of hurt can be tossed at them from the other end of the spectrum. Unlike Infernape who can no longer run effective mixed sets in OU level metagames, Super Luck/Sniper aren't 20% boosts to a subset of moves off one stat. They are an easily accessible 50% boosts to a subset of moves on one offensive stat and setup-oriented 50% boosts to all moves in general but to a particular few powerful moves on both sides of the attacking spectrum. If there's one thing Fire/Ground has access too, it's a suite of very powerful and fairly accurate damaging attacks.

 

[Mr Holiday]

Mr Holiday, no, they are not the only users (there are 20 users of varying chance of appearance according to July 1760 CAPstats) , although I'm not sure that basing an ability on coverage moves and the ability to outspeed a Shift Gear Necturna or Dragon Dance Zygarde is something we should be expecting, STAB resist/neutral or no. Based on STABs, you are looking at Blacephalon, Alakazam-M, Gyarados-M, and Voodoom who are susceptible to it without often packing coverage which speaks for itself.

I apologize. Sometimes, I can be more sarcastic then I mean to be, and people don't always pick up on that, especially in a text-based discussion. I know there are more than 3 Substitute users. That's why I made that comment; to make a point that Infiltrator would find use against more than just the three Pokemon you mentioned.

The whole point of this is to coordinate Movepool and Ability, right? I'm trying to find an Ability that coordinates well with the Movepool of a defensive Water/Bug Type Pokemon. Now, we can't talk about that Movepool might be, so we can't know what we're actually going to coordinate with, outside of just knowing that we'll probably have Water/Bug STAB, and maybe certain very common Moves. What this means is, in order to have the greatest potential for actually achieving the goal set forth by our Concept, we need to have the widest array of options available to us. Now, it's relatively easy to find good Abilities for CAP25f and CAP25g, because those are more offensively inclined (CAP25g is shaping up that way, at least), and most Abilities that coordinate with Moves at all do so with offensive Moves. Finding something for CAP25w, on the other hand, is much harder. To compound issues, we also want to differentiate CAP25w from the thirty million or so other bulky Water Types in the metagame, which means finding something nothing else does.

Infiltrator lets CAP25w do something no other bulky Water Type (Or bulky Pokemon period, unless you count Spirtomb for whatever reason) can do: Ignore Substitutes. More than that, it gives us options. Most bulky Pokemon tend to have trouble dealing with Substitutes. They can't inflict Status, and usually lack the raw power to break the Substitute efficiently. Usually, you would have to switch out to something that could deal with the Substitute, or try to break though it with our bulky Pokemon, letting the enemy set up or get in free hits. Infiltrator lets us deal ignore Substitutes, allowing us to apply Status or just attack the enemy, potentially forcing them out. It also has real, indisputable coordination with whatever Moves we decide to give it, unlike other suggestions like Poison Heal, Magic Gaurd/Bounce, etc. It gives us a huge degree of potential for Movepool specialization, letting us shape CAP25w into a passive wall, bulky tank, or whatever other defensive role we decide it needs to be. We can give it status Moves, attacking Moves, de-buffing Moves, or anything else, and know for a fact that they will be coordinated with our Ability.

As for our STAB coverage, that ship's sailed. We're stuck with Water/Bug. I think being able to hit Blacephalon, Mega Alakazam, Mega Gyrados and Voodoom through Substitutes is a good thing, as we're supposed to switch into Mega Gyrados anyway, and the other tree are all threats that a team would want walled/dealt with anyway. They don't appear on CAP25w's counter list (except, paradoxically, Mega Gyrados), so I don't see how countering them is a problem.

Another Ability I like is Corrosion. While less flexible than Infiltrator, Corrosion would directly aid CAP25w in debilitating it's proposed targets with Poison, and would open up a wide array of Poison-inflicting Moves that might otherwise avoid consideration. I still prefer Infiltrator, but I think Corrosion is an excellent option, as well.

 

[Magic Mayhem Maiden]

Corrosion is a bad idea. So since this is a defensive Pokémon, its going to only use the status move because poison attacks can still blocked by steel types. Now lets see how we benefit: Mega Scizor, Fidgit, Jirachi, and Crucibelle. Burn is always better for 3 of them, which water types have because of a move, and Fidgit is a support mon so I don't think it'll care enough about poison. Now Checks/Counters: Ferrothorn, Naviathan, Mollux, Plasmanta, and Toxapex. I would like to point out 2 of them, Ferrothorn and Toxapex, which are both defensive pokemons. Toxic on both of them are pretty bad for them, especially Toxapex, which would be forced out quite often because of it. Posioning Naviathan is problematic, because it's a setup pokemon and poison is never good for any of them. Mollux is normally immune to both damaging status effects, so getting poisoned is never a good thing, especially against a defensive pokemon it should "wall".

Also, it's too situational to be used. I do not like Corrosion

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

I apologize. Sometimes, I can be more sarcastic then I mean to be, and people don't always pick up on that, especially in a text-based discussion. I know there are more than 3 Substitute users. That's why I made that comment; to make a point that Infiltrator would find use against more than just the three Pokemon you mentioned.

The whole point of this is to coordinate Movepool and Ability, right? I'm trying to find an Ability that coordinates well with the Movepool of a defensive Water/Bug Type Pokemon. Now, we can't talk about that Movepool might be, so we can't know what we're actually going to coordinate with, outside of just knowing that we'll probably have Water/Bug STAB, and maybe certain very common Moves. What this means is, in order to have the greatest potential for actually achieving the goal set forth by our Concept, we need to have the widest array of options available to us. Now, it's relatively easy to find good Abilities for CAP25f and CAP25g, because those are more offensively inclined (CAP25g is shaping up that way, at least), and most Abilities that coordinate with Moves at all do so with offensive Moves. Finding something for CAP25w, on the other hand, is much harder. To compound issues, we also want to differentiate CAP25w from the thirty million or so other bulky Water Types in the metagame, which means finding something nothing else does.

Infiltrator lets CAP25w do something no other bulky Water Type (Or bulky Pokemon period, unless you count Spirtomb for whatever reason) can do: Ignore Substitutes. More than that, it gives us options. Most bulky Pokemon tend to have trouble dealing with Substitutes. They can't inflict Status, and usually lack the raw power to break the Substitute efficiently. Usually, you would have to switch out to something that could deal with the Substitute, or try to break though it with our bulky Pokemon, letting the enemy set up or get in free hits. Infiltrator lets us deal ignore Substitutes, allowing us to apply Status or just attack the enemy, potentially forcing them out. It also has real, indisputable coordination with whatever Moves we decide to give it, unlike other suggestions like Poison Heal, Magic Gaurd/Bounce, etc. It gives us a huge degree of potential for Movepool specialization, letting us shape CAP25w into a passive wall, bulky tank, or whatever other defensive role we decide it needs to be. We can give it status Moves, attacking Moves, de-buffing Moves, or anything else, and know for a fact that they will be coordinated with our Ability.

As for our STAB coverage, that ship's sailed. We're stuck with Water/Bug. I think being able to hit Blacephalon, Mega Alakazam, Mega Gyrados and Voodoom through Substitutes is a good thing, as we're supposed to switch into Mega Gyrados anyway, and the other tree are all threats that a team would want walled/dealt with anyway. They don't appear on CAP25w's counter list (except, paradoxically, Mega Gyrados), so I don't see how countering them is a problem.

I can use a lot of words and calcs to say that Infiltrator is only a viable option if we have access to significant Ice Coverage to target the two Primary Substitute users in Zygarde and Necturna, or failing that, high accuracy Status Inflict Moves like Will o Wisp or Glare, while maintaining stats that allow us to withstand a Switch and +2 Stone Edge and/or outspeed +2 Necturna. (or be relegated to switching in against an unboosted one). But what's the point? We have nothing viable to use against it. Refrigerate and Soundmoves would be better if you want to hit past Subs, and there's no relevant AVeil abuser yet.

No mate. Infiltrator has so little effect that there is virtually no way it will have any meta relevance. There is no Awesome Ability Actualization when there is no mom we can effectively deal well against, when our only thing we have going for us with the typing against the Sub users is Resisting Ground and being Neutral to Necturna's STAB Power Whip, whike retaliating nwutrally with STAB.

Infiltrator is a horrible, proscriptive idea. If we were building around Infiltrator, a better typing, like Steel/Dark, would be better. Resists both common sub users STABs (with Air Balloon) and frequent attacks, hits back neutrally or SE with its STABs, has relevance against other mon in the meta, like Tomohawk (at least ones not packing fighting coverage) and can be given the same Ice Coverage to ruin all 3 mon mentioned here. We also wouldn't be limited by the starter stat spread, and don't take additional damage from Stealth rocks which are additional bonuses in our favour.

Infiltrator just needa putting to bed as an idea on 25w.

 

[Dogfish44]

As I've been thinking about CAP25 as a whole, I've been kind of forced to the realisation that...

... we're really not going to get these mons to be viable enough in power levels given the sort of abilities that have been presented. I think 25g has a good slate to be viable, but for 25w and 25f, a lot of abilities aren't recognising the reality of the power levels we're kinda going to need. I think people are, essentially, forgetting that we have a framework which includes 535 BST limit, and offensive stats which both go down to a minimum of 70 or so (69 being the absolutely limit, from Delphox's Atk).

Of those CAPs which, when you factor those in would be within or weaker than our starter's BST and stat limits (excluding stuff like Mollux - who's 45 Atk would have to be raised, thus breaking BST limits), you get a pool of Cawmodore, Kitsunoh, Malaconda, Revenankh, and Tomohawk - Pokemon which either have incredibly good abilities (Triage, Prankster), unique users of viable moves (Belly Drum, Shadow Strike), or... are Malaconda, that Pokemon which is used as the de facto example of how CAP overreacts to things. Note that Pokemon that are already stronger than our upper limit include the likes of Voodoom, Stratagem, and Kerfluffle, those regular guests of CAP UU.

So, when we're getting abilities that are like Infiltrator suggested, I really worry that we're going to create our first entrants to CAP RU. In general, this is a CAP where we should look to massive, swingy abilties - abilities which say 'Double This', or 'Half That', or 'Negate That'.

Just my pre-having-today's-first-coffee 2c anyway.

edit: A brief reminder that Malaconda's ability pool includes Infiltrator, and unsurprisingly, it is completely unviable - Infiltrator will not suffice at all for 25w. Heck, Infiltrator's primary role on 25w (breaking past Substitutes) already has sound-based alternatives within Water- and Bug- STAB as is.

 

[Askeia]

Seen a lot of discussion about No Guard for 25g, but what about No Guard for 25f instead?
Fire and Ground both have a number of strong moves with imperfect accuracy, which already makes No Guard an attractive pick.
It allows us to get raw power without just being a simple damage boosting ability like Sheer Force and allows us to fine tune the power of our coverage moves more easily down the road.

Also, I don't see any mention of Flower Veil for 25g. It's exclusively used as doubles ability due to its fickle effect condition so it's rather unexplored, but seems to be pretty strong and worth exploring imo.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Also, I don't see any mention of Flower Veil for 25g. It's exclusively used as doubles ability due to its fickle effect condition so it's rather unexplored, but seems to be pretty strong and worth exploring imo.

What mon frequently use Negative Stat Drops as part of their common repertoir? Memento and Parting Shot resilience, sure, but that is like Gastrodon and Kerfluffle, pretty much, outside of Intimidate jsers: the primary one having flying STAB.

If we are talking about abilities with power: Grass Electric have significant sustain which gives greater credence to abilities like Water Compaction and/or Stamina. Combined with the limited stat spread both of these come in absolute wonders: we can mitigate low defense and completely sack attack to switch into Scalds without fear for the former, and allow free reign in items with Leftovers, AV, Choice Specs/Scarf, Life Orb, and have some significant welly in the offense department, and provoding perfect bait for Tomohawk: Tomo has to come in a Haze away to prevent a Snowball especially in the case of Stamina, but then has to eat a STAB electric attack.

 

[xurkitrium-z]

25w is starting at a disadvantage as a defensive pokemon with a Stealth Rocks weakness and a 535 BST limitation that gets walled easily; any ability we give it needs to have some serious power to make up for this if we want it to be playable, especially when we already face stiff competition from other defensive waters like Arghonaut, Toxapex and Gastrodon. Abilities like Infiltrator and Corrosion that have minor situational utility at best only hurt us.

 

[Ahhhhhh......Clefable.]

This might be controversial, and even disallowed, but what about Mountaineer for CAP25w? I know in the rules it says that’s custom abilities are banned, but does that include those already existing in CAP? Mountaineer would eliminate our Stealth Rock weakness, and would pair well with pivoting and healing moves for our defensive mon. As it’s been pointed out, CAP25w starts off at a disadvantage as a defensive mob thanks to its typing and base stat limit. An alternative would be Magic Guard, but that might be overpowered, where as Mountaineer would be more balanced.

 

[Rifou88]

I've been thinking well on crit based ability and I'm conviced that super luck is garbage but that sniper can actually work, even if I don't like it. indeed, crits only give x1.5 damage output, like choice item. So no one wants to run scope lents and high crit move instead of choice items with good moves. super luck can not work. On the other side, sniper offers x2.25 damage output thanks to setup moves, wich is better. It would be a way to setup that pass unaware wall and stats lowering. It would also allows cap25f, with scopes lents, to abuse stats lowering move, that are present in the fire movepool.
However, out of the three crit based ability, the most concept fitting is merciless. All our concept is about maximising the power of an ability and our typing is maximising the potential of merciless since we can SE hit poison and steel mon. Furthermore, cap25f will certainly use toxic even if we don't give merciless since fire/ground attacks + toxic is super strong and looking to the threat list, we can guess that cap25f won't have any intresting coverage. Is there a beter way to maximise merciless than to give to a mon that easily kills steel and poison and will likely use toxic? I saw some poeple arguing that merciless was too powerful with our typing, but don't forget our bst limitation, we need a strong ability.
Of the other abilty proposed for the fire mon, i'm liking the most simple and technicien. simple has wery high synergy with fire move that even allows us to create a mon that can set-up itself with the AV. I we give him the right moves, we can make sure to create a viable mon within our bst limit, but it will be broken because, as said reviloja, there will still be natural counter and rk. The only thing that we should pay attention is spa boost + hp, which could ruins our threat list. tech is also very intresting with ground and fire low bp move that i can't name, but that everyone is thinking about. wwe should not be afraid of tech + hp to destroy our threat list if we give him a low engough spa. nor breloom nor zor are using hp.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

I've been thinking well on crit based ability and I'm conviced that super luck is garbage but that sniper can actually work, even if I don't like it. indeed, crits only give x1.5 damage output, like choice item. So no one wants to run scope lents and high crit move instead of choice items with good moves. super luck can not work.

how does guaranteed Crit Set Up Sweeper that doesn't have to rely on items with Fire/Ground coverafe NOT work, and be anti concept?

On the other side, sniper offers x2.25 damage output thanks to setup moves, wich is better. It would be a way to setup that pass unaware wall and stats lowering. It would also allows cap25f, with scopes lents, to abuse stats lowering move, that are present in the fire movepool.

It can only ever run that set, though. If it doesn't get the Crit Boost through the +Crit Item, it's losing 33% power jt was designed around. Focus Blast is called Focus Miss for a reason.

However, out of the three crit based ability, the most concept fitting is merciless.

Really? The most fitting move to the concept is one which relies on poisoning an opponent? With no STAB moves capable of generating that, having to spend time spreading status before it can be relevant, and loses its power if the target switches out, which unlike a Set Up Crit Sweeper doesn't... Super Luck can 1st turn bypass Def Boosters like Arghonaut (with coverage if necessary) Revenankh, and Clefable, something only Storm Throw could otherwise achieve - which lets be honest, it isn't doing with only 60BP and Fighting STAB.

Or, of course, we could rely on team support like Toxapex, and not be able to run Defog - further condensing team options and easing prediction for the enemy as they really only have Excadrill to worry about, instead needing Rapid Spin to clear out the Stealth Rocks it is weak to, and not be able to deal crits against Levitate, Flying, Steel or Poison mon (something that means the mon was already capable without using the ability - an incredible awesome ability actualization in that instance), let alone those who can use Rest, Aromatherapy/Heal Bell, Flame Orb users, or those who are otherwise status afflicted to absorb your attacks. At what stage does that become more relevant than a mon which can run at the minimum of 2 sets in order to achieve the same effect (autocrit), and at what stage do we say, look, we're making a mon who is beaten by Zygarde for a similar role?

No, no no, Merciless doesn't fit at all on a Starter BST limitation.

Edit: thats it from me, don:t want to flood

 

[Sabbio]

25w is starting at a disadvantage as a defensive pokemon with a Stealth Rocks weakness and a 535 BST limitation that gets walled easily; any ability we give it needs to have some serious power to make up for this if we want it to be playable, especially when we already face stiff competition from other defensive waters like Arghonaut, Toxapex and Gastrodon.

This is a very good point that I'd like to address. We are looking for now at an easy to exploit (due to its SR weakness) defensive wall that needs a very strong ability to stand out from the others and with a quite limited BST to boot.

Defensive abilities like Regenerator and Poison Heal, while fitting with a more of a defensive Pokémon, don't really make much sense neither considering the "triple A" neither considering that Toxapex, Tangrowth, Tornadus and Gliscor may end up being better options due to their sheer typing. They don't really make much value of any kind of movepool 25w is going to end up having, Regenerator in particular.
Regarding other abilities like Corrosion, while it could situationally be a cool ability to have, it's not really a "starter-esque" ability that makes up for a less-than-stellar BST.

I'd therefore like to propose Analytic.
Generally speaking, more defensive Pokemon often end up being criticized for being passive. They come in on what they are supposed to check/counter, proceed to set-up/get rid of hazards or get off some damage on what's coming in, eventually grabbing momentum with U-Turn or Volt Switch.

On the other hand, Analytic gives a Life Orb boost to the user's moves if it moves for last. This ability doesn't have many notable users besides offensive Starmie down in UU, which abuses this ability through its very good coverage options, good offensive stats and very powerful STAB moves like Hydro Pump.

Since CAP25's leitmotif is "actualizing an underused or underexplored ability", I think that Analytic would be a really good choice here.
Analytic would make it so 25w would never end up being too passive, even if it ends up having less than great offensive stats. It would make it so in later stages of the project we could end up forgoing speed in favour of more bulk, which most defensive mons end up having anyway: a liability turns into a powerful trait that distinguishes itself from the others.
Analytic ties with the "good ability-movepool interaction" factor too, as if 25w ends up with an expanded movepool, this ability would let its coverage shine.

To wrap this up, Analytic:

1) Lets CAP 25w take advantage of its movepool, whatever ends up it being;
2) Lets us being more free in later stages in the project, in particular with its stats distribution: if its decided to give it little speed, then it lets it take more easily advantage of Analytic; if its decided to spend more stat points in bulk, then this ability would end up making up for it boosting its damage output; if its decided to give it more offensive stats, then it would carve for itself the niche of a hard-hitting tank;
3) Doesn't mess up with checks and couters;
4) Actualizies an ability which users are far and few between, letting it shine on a slow or on a generallt defensive mon that doesn't invest points in offensive stats.

 

[Mythlore]

Really? The most fitting move to the concept is one which relies on poisoning an opponent? With no STAB moves capable of generating that, having to spend time spreading status before it can be relevant, and loses its power if the target switches out, which unlike a Set Up Crit Sweeper doesn't...

In my opinion, Merciless is the most fitting ability for the concept that has been suggested for any of the three starters. The concept is to maximize the potential of the ability. While one way to maximize Merciless would be to spread poison as much as possible (as Toxapex would probably do if Merciless wasn't overshadowed by Regenerator) another way to maximize it is by beating Steel and Poison types. Fire/Ground is the perfect typing to do the latter, as you both beat the types that can't be poisoned and have good enough STAB coverage to run poisoning utility moves as well. Merciless has the benefits that Super Luck and Sniper have while having the freedom to set up earlier in the battle. It doesn't require a specific item in Scope Lens while still being able to be used on the first turn should the opposing pokemon be poisoned earlier in the battle.

While it doesn't maintain the power should the opponent switch out like a set-up Sniper or Super Luck would, it has room to set-up earlier in the game and maintain the set-up even when itself switches out. Due to teammates being able to set-up the poison as well allows 25f to still be effective even in matchups where it is unable to set-up. Since we are limited to starter BST, our bulk will likely be sub-optimal which limits the effectiveness of setting up which Sniper and some Super Luck sets would require.

No, no no, Merciless doesn't fit at all on a Starter BST limitation.

Frankly no idea why you think this - at worst Merciless gives us enough power to allow us to have a lower attack and get more bulk. At best it gives us enough power to allow 25f to be a relevant threat in the metagame even with the starter BST.

It can only ever run that set, though. If it doesn't get the Crit Boost through the +Crit Item, it's losing 33% power jt was designed around. Focus Blast is called Focus Miss for a reason.

Also I don't follow what you are saying here - Sniper has room to achieve 100% crit through a +2 crit move (normal or Z) and high crit move, or a +2 crit move and scope lens. I'm not sure where the 33% power number comes from as you would likely never run a Sniper set that doesn't achieve 100% crit after setting up.

 

[Hakking]

We are looking for a specialist role for 25g, so I propose that Refrigerate is a great ability to achieve our goal. First, grass types are usually a safe switch-in for opposing grass types. Pseudo-STAB for ice moves would make 25G a grass assassin. Specifically, it would hit hard the commonly-mentioned Necturna. Second, there are a number of important normal-type moves that are blocked by ghost-type pokemon (priority, hazard removal). Converting them to ice-type would eliminate all chances of immunity to them. Galvanize would prevent ghosts from blocking them, but they would be blocked by grounds, which are immune to electric. Third, Refrigerate obviously satisfies the requirement that the ability interacts with movepool, as it would operate on all normal-type moves. So- we would have a unique grass pokemon that can both check other grasses and use unpreventable priority and hazard removal. 25g would hold a unique specialist role.