Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Kyub was one of the most powerful mons and now has been banned for various reasons.
It is true that it has many counter among mons of rank A, in particular gross and mag. It could be played in different ways including icium z even with z groudium, scarf as well as several defensive sets with weakness policy. But we should keep him banned.
Mimikyu can also be played in bulky offense, the most serene way to play. But he is not particularly strong, he has many mons who can easily beat him like gross, mold breaker, bulky offense... Usually the mons who beat him most often are lop, genesect or even gross. These movements can be easily anticipated so for now we should keep it and not suspect it.
Snorlax is one of the mons that uses normalium z and should indeed be suspected. With its big bulk, there are many powerful sets around it: z normalium/yawnlax w/ bdrum, ddedge and protect. Then there is the glutonny/iapapa berry set. Very few mons can beat him, indeed they are like mons with taunt, hyper offense like lop but I use other means to defeat him.
Pz him also very powerful but everybody know that it is played with the normalium z therefore they proceed to eventual counter, we should keep him for the moment and he should not be suspected.
Meloetta is very defensive allowing him to tanker big phisics attacks like outrage, there are many interesting sets with him with normalium z with a chain of stabbed attacks like hyper beam or laser focus. However it is played recently with the z celebrate, it will come stronger with a boost in all these stats by analyzing it well. It is not for the moment at the height of the two previous mons even if it is a powerful mons.
sigh...not gonna lie. am kind of tired of these sleep/snorlax ban discussions. back when gen 7 started, i got 1st place multiple times. Futile Croissant used it too. And when we said it should probably be banned or suspected. We were told it wasn't broken. It wasn't suspect worthy. That all you had to do was run sub or taunt. So not to sound douchebag esch but, "run sub or taunt". This is just a mini rant I guess. Either way I prefer Snorlaxium-Z :)
(I haven’t been laddering seriously for months so this might not come out good)
So it looks like we’re trying to get in a suspect after not doing much for a while. I’m gonna post my thoughts on mons only here, leaving out stuff like sleep because I don’t know which direction its going after its been discussed for months.
Kyurem-Black: stay banned (reluctant)
Kyu-B may have a bunch of checks because it probably has the worst defensive typing of a S/A rank, but its base 170 attack along with a STAB ice z-move coming from a base 140 power is absolutely destructive and even resisted hits are hard. It also has great HP and decent defense, so with proper investment it could tank outrages from stuff like other scarfed Kyu-B. That’s not even the confusing part about this guy; it can run many different sets and could still be viable (Groundium, specs, band, and i probably shouldn’t say haban but its there).
Kyu-B did however, keep dnite in check which is a mon whos usage has recently increased just because it’s so versatile. Kyu-B’s omnipresence also made some niche picks more worth running. I’m obviously using mscizor here as an example; the only set it always lost to was specs HP fire, but it was so uncommon, and it wasn’t worth it over a set like icium.
That being said, Kyu-B should stay banned simply because it’s too strong, and i’d say it has the same case as megamence, being able to run few sets while being destructive in the meta.
Snorlax - Undecided
Snorlax is actually pretty insane, because he likes to utilize stuff that is controversial—sleep, and normalium z.
The normalium z makes him able to bypass taunt, like z-yawn or z-belly drum. Even with snorlium z, he still has yawn.
Snorlax has other sets like curse/amnesia but by item usage on this guy, you can tell that he likes to use the first set mentioned:
(usage1760)
Normalium Z 78.071%
Figy Berry 8.546%
Aguav Berry 3.760%
Last time I laddered I only saw snorlax once in a while or with DC3/Fertile aaabaaajss...
Snorlax - #19 in 1v1 (usage1760)
Welp things have changed
I mean, its not overcentralizing but its up there; if it forces people to run fighting/ghost/taunt for a teamslot then maybe a ban would be appropriate but I can’t decide if normalium z or snorlax is the issue.
(RIP DC3 if it’s banned tho)
Dragonite - more towards ban
Multiscale, great stats, good-ish defensive typing, could be considered a z-move abuser, can run choice, it doesn’t get more versatile than this. I’ve even seen Joker run a z-haze set, and it actually works. Without Kyu-B around this thing can run rampant on the ladder. His pickrate has skyrocketed:
Dragonite: #4 in 1v1 (usage1760)
He still hates stuff like mag and mimi but im starting to think he deserves a S rank on the vr.
Mimikyu - undecided
Disguise alone makes this thing the monster that it is on the ladder. Fast steel types generally beat it; the best counter is mold breaker scarf excadrill, with mscizor just behind it with technician bullet punch. MMeta checks it more often than not, because ghostium is much less common today than when gen7 was newer:
(Usage1760)
Mimikium Z 72.552%
Ghostium Z 9.174%
The curse set preys on most things slower than it, with the exception of things that can use a slowing move like rock tomb and take it out.
However, this thing has many tricks up its... bag; it can run stuff like thunder wave, the aforementioned curse, will o wisp, bulk up, z splash, and it has weird but effective coverage moves like wood hammer. It’s versatile like dragonite but more busted due to curse and disguise.
Banning mimikyu but keeping the totem version (which doesn’t have curse) might be a good idea now because it would be slightly easier to deal with, but I’m leaving my opiniob at undecided for now.
Jirachi - stay banned!!!
Jirachi is too uncompetitive and rng reliant to be allowed in the meta. Sometimes it died on turn 1 but other times it iron headed a gyarados to death. It could theoretically win against anything slower than 492 speed, without inner focus/steadfast/priority/prankster. That’s just how crazy it was.
Tapu Koko - stay banned
Koko’s pickrate was insane starting near the launch of USUM, when it got access to iron defense to beat threats it didn’t stand much of a chance against before. It was also the strongest nuke ever:
175 BP z-move (wild charge as base) OR 185 (thunder)
Electric terrain 50% boost
STAB 50% boost
BP: 393.75 (wild charge)
416.25 (thunder)
Koko also had the option to add charge boost to the huge BP’s ^^
Multiscale, great stats, good-ish defensive typing, could be considered a z-move abuser, can run choice, it doesn’t get more versatile than this. I’ve even seen Joker run a z-haze set, and it actually works. Without Kyu-B around this thing can run rampant on the ladder. His pickrate has skyrocketed:
Dragonite: #4 in 1v1 (usage1760)
He still hates stuff like mag and mimi but im starting to think he deserves a S rank on the vr.
Nah, I don't think this is S rank material, or broken for that matter. It looses to many fairies, Bullet punch Mega-Meta (if d-nite isn't weakness policy), WoW 'zard x, (IMO its best set) Gyra, and mimi. There's so much that beats this thing.
However, the main reason I brought this up is because of an issue i've seen a lot here recently. Can we please stop talking about "broken" 'mons/items (I can see talking about Normalium-Z, as it relates to snorlax) that aren't getting suspected? This is why we didn't have suspects for a wile, because instead of just voicing our opinions of the suspected 'mon, we start talking about other 'mons we think are broken. Can we please talk about Snorlax and things relating to it, instead of saying that random 'mons are broken and need to be banned? We can talk about those after the suspect test.
Eh, I know that my opinion doesn't really matter much since I'm not anywhere forum-wise but hey, might as well talk. Note that I intend to talk only about Snorlax, not about sleep, Z-moves, normalium Z, etc. unlike some posts here... (Yeah, this thread is for general discussion, but the main topic is Snorlax for now.)
So, I haven't really seen Snorlax much recently especially compared to well, what people know to be common these days (char X, gyara, yeah you get the idea). That isn't the main point here, though.
There's three items that have any amount of usage, namely Normalium Z, Figy Berry, and Aguav Berry. Yeah, there are other items, but it's the same in terms of the two categories of items. The berries are easy to understand (+50% at <50% health thanks to Gluttony).
Normalium Z, though. The usual set is yawnlax, aka something like this:
Code:
Snorlax @ Normalium Z
Ability: Gluttony
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Double Edge / Chip Away / Body Slam
- Belly Drum
- Yawn
- Protect
^ the EVs/nature are probably wrong since I suck at those, but the idea is the same.
The idea behind this set is that you put people to sleep with yawn followed by protect. Then you either belly drum to set up a 4x attack, or just straight-up Breakneck Blitz. Taunt is bypassed with the help of Z-Belly Drum; thus, the main way to defeat the set is to taunt it (preventing Protect) and then knock it out in one turn before you sleep. There aren't many Pokemon capable of that because of Snorlax's great bulk (160/65/110), and what's more even though there's a chance that you wake up early and overpower Snorlax, that's very RNG. The other way to kill it is with stall, but that can be unreliable.
The other set, curselax, is usually run with a berry - something like this:
I'm not sure if this is completely right, or whatever. The point is that you can spam curse until you have enough attack to take out things. Recycle is used to keep recovering with Figy, Aguav, etc. (whatever berry is being used, they're basically all the same). This set walls a lot of things, and the best way to go against it is a special-based Fighting-type attacker, but 160/110 serves Snorlax very well.
So yeah, tl;dr there are two sets that have different things to take various things down, and the variability helps Snorlax out a lot. When it's not either a guaranteed win or loss, it's usually a game of sleep RNG/crits. so IMO ban because it's versatile enough combined with its good bulk and RNG in sleep
-------
tbh all I did was summarize the situation for like 90% of this post IMO, but w/e I tried, kthxbye
(Oh man, actually contributing to the discussion for once!!)
(Shoutout to Uselesscrab for this, pulled from the discord)
1v1 community: "we banned x because it was annoying to play against"
me: links to ban reasoning and a post by someone else supporting the ban
1v1 community 4 months later: "we banned x because it was annoying to play against"
While yes, Snorlax might be annoying to play against, it is annoying because of a few things that do make it horrible to play against.
This is what I think based on my experience with the mon.
Snorlax is a lot like Tapu Koko was.
Here's why.
They both beat a significant portion of the metagame with just two sets
Snorlax has Yawn + Belly Drum + Normalium Z, and Cursecycle, with Amnesia + Berry.
Koko had its hard hitting, Timid 252/252 Electrium Z with Thunder, and its bulky, Iron Defense, Charge, Roost + Attack set
They both fall under "tanky setup."
Most importantly:
Even common "counters" don't win the matchups.
With Snorlax, those counters can be beaten with just enough sleep turns and enough luck.
One example of such is Metagross-Mega. With enough sleep turns, Snorlax can just Double-Edge its way through Metagross to win.
With Koko, one example is Charizard-Mega-X. Through bulky setup, Charizard still loses, unless it gets a crit, or runs specific sets, like Swords Dance.
In the end, both are very centralizing mons, with few hard counters. Both are very annoying to play against, and while that doesn't constitute a ban, it, combined with other things such as Snorlax's amazing bulk, beating a very significant part of the metagame, and being hard to counter make Snorlax a very tough mon to deal with in the current meta.
I'm going to try and tackle this issue in a different style, I'm going to make it interactive to prove my point
Snorlax is such a glaring issue in the metagame since it can break through normal checks through the use of yawn hax or pull a 180 and beat its checks using its Curse set. In these "tests" you can try and predict what set Snorlax is currently running based on team composition in a Bo3 format, meaning that I'll reveal one of Snorlax's teammates so you have more clues in which set it's running
____________________ Test
______________________________
Did you guess right? One of the problems I found with Snorlax is that it's hard to predict what set it is without prior information whether that information is obtained through ladder scouting or through a team locked Bo3. (god forbid if it's not) Snorlax can easily score a win by capitalizing on you trying to figure out what set it is running and figuring out how to beat it. Snorlax could fit on lure teams, stall teams, Hyper Offense teams, Balance teams you name it!
Another thing that's so broken about Snorlax is that both sets have the same appearance: Slow Bulky Set Up Attacker. This means you can splash this role on a team that needs it and a skilled team builder would hide its actual set.
____________________ Test 2: Battle!
____________________
.VS.
YawnLax Vs. Bulky M-Metagross
So who would I put my money on? On one side you have Yawnlax with BellyDrum and the other side you have a pokemon that was designed to take care of this specific set.
Here's the thing... Snorlax has Yawn which can sleep a pokemon for a maximum of 3 turns that's 3 turns where the opponent cannot do anything but watch.
A possible scenario:
Snorlax uses Yawn on M-Metagross, M-Metagross uses Meteor Arm dealing 30%
Snorlax uses Protect, M-Metagross uses Hammer Arm but fails to do damage and falls asleep (Turn 0 sleep)
Snorlax Belly Drums, M-Metagross is asleep (Turn 1 Sleep)
Snorlax uses Z-Double-Edge and takes out 1/2 of M-Metagross' health, M-Metagross is asleep (Turn 2 Sleep)
Snorlax uses Double-Edge and takes out 1/4 of M-Metagross' health, M-Metagross is still asleep (Turn 3 Sleep)
M-Metagross finally wakes up and uses Hammer Arm but it missed! Snorlax uses Double-Edge and KOs
>Skill
Remind you this is Defense invested M-Metagross but it can still lose since 6 stages of boosted attack do a truckload of damage. Snorlax can punch through M-Metagross that was Ev'd to take 1 Z-Double Edge at +6 attack and an additional Double-Edge while being able to fire off Hammer Arms.
Well, why don't we take it up a notch? I'm allowing both parties to change up their move sets
Vs.
CurseLax Vs. Iron Defense M-Metagross
(Overkill... Is it?)
This is a very overkill situation, Mega Metagross sacrificed one move slot for Iron Defense so it can beat Snorlax and the like. There is no way that Snorlax can cheese a win even if it gets crits... Right?
"With Chip Away, Snorlax can beat Iron Defense Mega Metagross even if the Mega Metagross carries Rest"
Say the bolded text again but slowly. Now say it again. Do you see how obnoxious this can be in both a tournament and ladder setting? Chip Away Curselax could 3-0 your entire team, it's such a small detail that you need to account for.
To Summarize what I said in the previous sections:
Snorlax is hard to predict on team preview in competitive play
Snorlax, I believe is Uncounterable, nothing at face value (Name value) could always beat Snorlax in a 1v1
With this, I say we ban Snorlax from 1v1. This mon isn't power creeping the metagame or broken to the extent like Marshadow was, but Snorlax makes 1v1 a party game, not a competitive one.
2.If your Metagross-Mega has Hammer Arm,there is no reason not to use it straight away.
3.No Snorlax can 2HKO a viable Metagross-Mega with Chip Away.
4.Substitute Mega Metagross is a pretty reliable counter to most Snorlax,and paired with Hone Claws and Hammer Arm it can reliably win against any Snorlax,if you want to take it that far.
I will agree that Snorlax takes most matchups to gamble based on sleep turns like the Mega-Metagross one,which makes it uncompetitive,and its immense bulk means it has limited counters,which makes it unhealthy.
5.Snorlax, I believe is Uncounterable, nothing at face value (Name value) could always beat Snorlax in a 1v1
As I said,the main problem with Snorlax is that it's immense bulk limits its counters and makes it unhealthy,while its reliance on sleep rolls also makes it uncompetitive.
Snorlax does have counters.And while that may be because the meta is focused around it,we definitely cannot deny that pokemon like Sawk,Terrakion,Mega Lucario,etc. will beat Snorlax 100% of the time.But not everyone wants to run a Fighting type just to beat a specific pokemon that the metagame happens to be centralized around.
Hello Everyone!
I just wanted to bring you the official news that 1v1 official tournaments will be back starting today! They will use a new schedule which I'll post below.
Why participate
Tours are fun! And as always, the prize will let you be a 1v1 roomvoice for a month which is cool... I guess... Maybe...
Have fun getting haxed and climbing your way to the top!
This post aims to take a critical look at the statistics, fairness, and ease of counterplay for sleep and Snorlax. Using smogon.com/stats, we can find how often any given Pokemon is used, lead with, and uses a certain move, which will be the basis for much of the statistical analysis. The ultimate goal when looking at such stats is to find out how often hax will cause the Pokemon in question to win, allowing us to decide whether or not the amount of hax is acceptable relative to the Pokemon's positive impact.
Reasonable Preparation
Aside from raw numbers, another important factor for whether or not something is banworthy is the degree to which teambuilding warps around it. For a healthy threat, reliable counterplay should be available, somewhat reliable counterplay should be readily available, and non-specialized checks and counters should be available. How might this apply to, say, Mega Gyarados? Gyarados has a few Pokemon that can beat it with near perfect reliability (Mega Venusaur, Mega Altaria, Primarina, Tapu Fini), many Pokemon that can beat it that are susceptible to hax (Mega Charizard Y, SD Mimikyu, Mega Metagross, Landorus-T, Genesect), and among the things that beat it, some don't require specialized/high opportunity cost sets to beat it. These ideas will be important to understand the post.
Sleep
In order to estimate the amount of games that are influenced by sleep hax, we'll first need sets for our sleep users.
A few notes... 1) we're using 1630 stats, 2) we're arbitrarily cutting off stats after the 150th most-used Pokemon, 3) Whimsicott, Mega Sceptile, Togekiss and Mega Altaria can viably use sleep, but according to usage stats, they're not used enough to be considered significant here (less than 3.5% usage), 4) Mega Blastoise, Sylveon and Xurkitree use sleep based on usage stats, but as they don't have good sleep sets, they will be excluded, 5) Pokemon with multiple viable sleep sets (Mega Venusaur, Smeargle, Breloom) will be counted as using only their primary set for the sake of simplicity, 6) this is imprecise, and should be treated as such, 7) as per the nature of this, subjectivity will be completely rampant. Sorry.
So, how does the math work? I'll be supplying you with this figure: approximately how frequently you will have a sleep move used on you. A matchups list will be created in which each situation that sleep would be used is noted*. The Pokemon's lead usage (how often it is actually used, not just is put on a team) will be multiplied by the combined lead usage of all the mons which the given Pokemon would use sleep against. Finally, all of the sleep users' numbers will be added together. I'll be using this spreadsheet to show the bulk of the data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18EAIyZhiDh0Qpw5hmCj9F4Xz2wnW_yFr453d8CTYrHE/edit?usp=sharing *If the opponent can outspeed and OHKO/Taunt, or the opponent wins outright, regardless of whether not the sleep move is the ideal play, it will not be counted as a situation in which sleep is used
"Mon X": SleepTotalFromSpreadsheet*LeadUsage*SleepMoveUsage=%
Snorlax: .5867*1.962*.5783=.665%
Mega Venusaur: .503*.1685*.592=.5%
Mega Swampert: .6075*.4442*.6309=.298%
Jumpluff: .766*.2746*.9921=.209%
Smeargle: .649*.2618*.9897=.168%
Mega Gengar: .7172*.0039*.4327=.12%
Breloom: .6072*.1844*.8644=.097%
Vivillon: .7181*.0686*.9671=.048%
Mega Camerupt: .4817*.0951*.4696=.022%
Total: 2.117%
2.117%. We'll round it up to a very generous 2.5%. In any given battle, you have approximately a 2.5% chance of having a sleep move used on you. Additionally, factoring in the accuracy of the sleep moves, we can estimate that 1.92% of games involve you actually being put to sleep. The important thing to be thinking about here in regards to whether or not it should be banned is positives things lost vs negative things lost. Ultimately, I think that that a ~2% chance for such a move to even be used on you is pretty low and that the teambuilding value sleep/sleep users bring to the metagame is more important. As such, I don't think that sleep should be banned, but you can interpret this data however you wish. I wanted to provide a second figure, but after doing this, I realized that providing it take absolutely ages, so I decided to do it only for Snorlax, the most bannable sleep user.
Snorlax
The figure that I want to provide here is how often you will lose to Snorlax (the sleep set) in situations where you should have won. Of course, "should have won" is very subjective. I'll be defining it as any situation in which you win over 50% of the time. It's a fairly arbitrary number, but I think that it works well per a teambuilding mindset and in that there aren't really any non-arbitrary numbers here. The doc this time will contain a list of Pokemon that Snorlax requires 3 turns of sleep to beat, again, cut off after the 150th most used Pokemon. Pokemon which have complex matchups will have their own sheet dedicated to them so that you can see the math. We'll also be under the assumption that any given play is equally probable when it comes to things like Substitute. Here's the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AT2fBkSCJiw6-yeajf4dX9W69FCgQQ43LUzPZkGc6vY/edit?usp=sharing
The frequency at which Snorlax sleep haxes to win is genuinely pretty low so long as the Snorlax user knows the best plays (I was really surprised at how well a good Snorlax user can avoid relying on sleep rolls when I did the math) - only 3.6%. However, this fails to take into account the degree to which things have warped around Snorlax, specifically Substitute and Taunt. Against YawnLax, as a Substitute user, you need to use Substitute as Snorlax uses Yawn, and against CurseLax, as a Taunt user, you need to use Taunt as Snorlax uses Curse/Amensia. If you fail to do this, Snorlax can simply brute past you. While I put many things in the spreadsheet originally, I realized that 3 turns of sleep wasn't the threat - the threat was failing to use Substitute at the right time (Landorus, for example). The degree to which A) Pokemon run these moves with their only intention being to beat Snorlax, and B) players select the wrong move, expecting either a different play or different set. Another aspect of Snorlax's strength is its straight-up win percentage vs the meta. W for Snorlax win, L for Snorlax loss, V for variable/play-dependant
W
W
L
W
L
L
V
V
V
W
V
W
L
L
L
W
L
W
W
W
W
L
L
W
W
W
W
W
L
L
W
V
V
W
L
L
V
L
W
V
L
L
L
L
W
W
W
L
L
L
L
W
W
W
W
W
V
V
W
L
L
W
V
L
W
W
W
L
L
L
V
L
L
L
W
L
L
W
W
W
V
W
V
V
W
W
W
W
V
W
L
L
W
W
W
L
W
W
W
V
L
V
W
W
W
V
L
W
W
W
V
W
V
W
W
W
L
V
W
V
L
W
W
W
W
W
L
W
L
W
V
V
W
L
L
L
W
V
L
L
L
L
W
V
L
L
V
L
W
L
W
W
W
L
L
W
W
W
L
W
L
V
W
L
W
V
W
L
W
L
W
L
L
L
W
L
L
L
L
L
L
W
W
W
V
W
V
V
L
W
V
L
L
L
L
W
W
W
W
L
W
W
L
L
W
W
V
W
So all in all, we're looking at 49 wins, 35 losses, and 17 variables for YawnLax and 47/39/15 for CurseLax. Counting the variables as genuine 50/50s, that's about 60% of the VR that Yawn Snorlax beats. Perhaps not banworthy on its own, but frightening nonetheless. What's more frightening is the lack of reliable counterplay, however. Across the entire VR, excluding D tier, we're looking at 26 Pokemon that beat it regardless of sleep rolls, plays, or sets. Out of the 26, 9 need non-standard sets to beat it reliably. To sum that up, almost half of Snorlax "counters" are unreliable, three quarters of the VR is unable to beat Snorlax reliably, and out of its hard counters, 1/3 need to run off-meta/suboptimal sets to beat it. I think that that's fairly banworthy.
I may do another post in a similar vein for Deoxys-S and Mimikyu soontm
I hate to be the person to rag on someone who put forth a lot of effort into something, but as the opposition to this post in the overall Sleep debate, I feel I must point out issues where issues are present. With that said, and likely many angry responses to come, let's jump in.
This post aims to take a critical look at the statistics, fairness, and ease of counterplay for sleep and Snorlax. Using smogon.com/stats, we can find how often any given Pokemon is used, lead with, and uses a certain move, which will be the basis for much of the statistical analysis. The ultimate goal when looking at such stats is to find out how often hax will cause the Pokemon in question to win, allowing us to decide whether or not the amount of hax is acceptable relative to the Pokemon's positive impact.
Aside from raw numbers, another important factor for whether or not something is banworthy is the degree to which teambuilding warps around it. For a healthy threat, reliable counterplay should be available, somewhat reliable counterplay should be readily available, and non-specialized checks and counters should be available. How might this apply to, say, Mega Gyarados? Gyarados has a few Pokemon that can beat it with near perfect reliability (Mega Venusaur, Mega Altaria, Primarina, Tapu Fini), many Pokemon that can beat it that are susceptible to hax (Mega Charizard Y, SD Mimikyu, Mega Metagross, Landorus-T, Genesect), and among the things that beat it, some don't require specialized/high opportunity cost sets to beat it. These ideas will be important to understand the post.
A few notes... 1) we're using 1630 stats, 2) we're arbitrarily cutting off stats after the 150th most-used Pokemon, 3) Whimsicott, Mega Sceptile, Togekiss and Mega Altaria can viably use sleep, but according to usage stats, they're not used enough to be considered significant here (less than 3.5% usage), 4) Mega Blastoise, Sylveon and Xurkitree use sleep based on usage stats, but as they don't have good sleep sets, they will be excluded, 5) Pokemon with multiple viable sleep sets (Mega Venusaur, Smeargle, Breloom) will be counted as using only their primary set for the sake of simplicity, 6) this is imprecise, and should be treated as such, 7) as per the nature of this, subjectivity will be completely rampant. Sorry.
Going by usage is reasonable, since it's the most quantifiable system we have to go off of, but try not to let it be your only basis; Deoxys-Defense was particularly low in usage, and yet still managed a ban, in addition to how new sets and overall ladder trends can spring up out of nowhere, such as the vast improvement on Jumpluff's original set that the newly crafted Grassium set provides, or Dragonite's dramatic increase in usage.
So, how does the math work? I'll be supplying you with this figure: approximately how frequently you will have a sleep move used on you. A matchups list will be created in which each situation that sleep would be used is noted*. The Pokemon's lead usage (how often it is actually used, not just is put on a team) will be multiplied by the combined lead usage of all the mons which the given Pokemon would use sleep against. Finally, all of the sleep users' numbers will be added together. I'll be using this spreadsheet to show the bulk of the data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18EAIyZhiDh0Qpw5hmCj9F4Xz2wnW_yFr453d8CTYrHE/edit?usp=sharing *If the opponent can outspeed and OHKO/Taunt, or the opponent wins outright, regardless of whether not the sleep move is the ideal play, it will not be counted as a situation in which sleep is used
"Mon X": SleepTotalFromSpreadsheet*LeadUsage*SleepMoveUsage=%
Snorlax: .5867*1.962*.5783=.665%
Mega Venusaur: .503*.1685*.592=.5%
Mega Swampert: .6075*.4442*.6309=.298%
Jumpluff: .766*.2746*.9921=.209%
Smeargle: .649*.2618*.9897=.168%
Mega Gengar: .7172*.0039*.4327=.12%
Breloom: .6072*.1844*.8644=.097%
Vivillon: .7181*.0686*.9671=.048%
Mega Camerupt: .4817*.0951*.4696=.022%
Total: 2.117%
2.117%. We'll round it up to a very generous 2.5%. In any given battle, you have approximately a 2.5% chance of having a sleep move used on you. Additionally, factoring in the accuracy of the sleep moves, we can estimate that 1.92% of games involve you actually being put to sleep. The important thing to be thinking about here in regards to whether or not it should be banned is positives things lost vs negative things lost. Ultimately, I think that that a ~2% chance for such a move to even be used on you is pretty low and that the teambuilding value sleep/sleep users bring to the metagame is more important. As such, I don't think that sleep should be banned, but you can interpret this data however you wish. I wanted to provide a second figure, but after doing this, I realized that providing it take absolutely ages, so I decided to do it only for Snorlax, the most bannable sleep user.
Hoo boy.
| 2 | Tapu Koko | 4.57088% | 22165 | 3.704% |
At its peak usage, you had approximately a 4.5% chance of having Tapu Koko cleaning you out, probably closer to about 4% after factoring in mons that beat it (I know it's not done in exactly the same method as you performed to get your numbers, but if anything, doing that would make this number even smaller!). What do these numbers have to do with anything? I hate to disrespect all the work you did to get these numbers, but they mean next to nothing in regards to the debate about whether or not sleep is uncompetitive or has enough reliable counterplay. I just hate the argument that something has to be used a million times before discussion can really begin. Even Snorlax is currently averaging about as much usage as Deoxys-Defense had.
As for the latter half, you've still yet to explain what positives that Sleep users even bring vs those that they hinder. It is to my belief that any kind of Pokemon, set, move, item, or anything else that creates scenarios where a player cannot win based on his or her skill or knowledge of the metagame is unacceptable. While Pokemon is in fact riddled with these kinds of scenarios, a clear boundary has been shown in the forms of OHKO moves, Swagger, Evasion, Accuracy dropping, and Jirachi, where the RNG-reliant scenarios created do in fact come to an extent that is widely considered unbearable for the sake of the metagame.
I don't have any bone to pick with the Snorlax stuff, A+ for effort.
This post aims to take a critical look at the statistics, fairness, and ease of counterplay for sleep and Snorlax. Using smogon.com/stats, we can find how often any given Pokemon is used, lead with, and uses a certain move, which will be the basis for much of the statistical analysis. The ultimate goal when looking at such stats is to find out how often hax will cause the Pokemon in question to win, allowing us to decide whether or not the amount of hax is acceptable relative to the Pokemon's positive impact.
Reasonable Preparation
Aside from raw numbers, another important factor for whether or not something is banworthy is the degree to which teambuilding warps around it. For a healthy threat, reliable counterplay should be available, somewhat reliable counterplay should be readily available, and non-specialized checks and counters should be available. How might this apply to, say, Mega Gyarados? Gyarados has a few Pokemon that can beat it with near perfect reliability (Mega Venusaur, Mega Altaria, Primarina, Tapu Fini), many Pokemon that can beat it that are susceptible to hax (Mega Charizard Y, SD Mimikyu, Mega Metagross, Landorus-T, Genesect), and among the things that beat it, some don't require specialized/high opportunity cost sets to beat it. These ideas will be important to understand the post.
Sleep
In order to estimate the amount of games that are influenced by sleep hax, we'll first need sets for our sleep users.
A few notes... 1) we're using 1630 stats, 2) we're arbitrarily cutting off stats after the 150th most-used Pokemon, 3) Whimsicott, Mega Sceptile, Togekiss and Mega Altaria can viably use sleep, but according to usage stats, they're not used enough to be considered significant here (less than 3.5% usage), 4) Mega Blastoise, Sylveon and Xurkitree use sleep based on usage stats, but as they don't have good sleep sets, they will be excluded, 5) Pokemon with multiple viable sleep sets (Mega Venusaur, Smeargle, Breloom) will be counted as using only their primary set for the sake of simplicity, 6) this is imprecise, and should be treated as such, 7) as per the nature of this, subjectivity will be completely rampant. Sorry.
So, how does the math work? I'll be supplying you with this figure: approximately how frequently you will have a sleep move used on you. A matchups list will be created in which each situation that sleep would be used is noted*. The Pokemon's lead usage (how often it is actually used, not just is put on a team) will be multiplied by the combined lead usage of all the mons which the given Pokemon would use sleep against. Finally, all of the sleep users' numbers will be added together. I'll be using this spreadsheet to show the bulk of the data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18EAIyZhiDh0Qpw5hmCj9F4Xz2wnW_yFr453d8CTYrHE/edit?usp=sharing *If the opponent can outspeed and OHKO/Taunt, or the opponent wins outright, regardless of whether not the sleep move is the ideal play, it will not be counted as a situation in which sleep is used
"Mon X": SleepTotalFromSpreadsheet*LeadUsage*SleepMoveUsage=%
Snorlax: .5867*1.962*.5783=.665%
Mega Venusaur: .503*.1685*.592=.5%
Mega Swampert: .6075*.4442*.6309=.298%
Jumpluff: .766*.2746*.9921=.209%
Smeargle: .649*.2618*.9897=.168%
Mega Gengar: .7172*.0039*.4327=.12%
Breloom: .6072*.1844*.8644=.097%
Vivillon: .7181*.0686*.9671=.048%
Mega Camerupt: .4817*.0951*.4696=.022%
Total: 2.117%
2.117%. We'll round it up to a very generous 2.5%. In any given battle, you have approximately a 2.5% chance of having a sleep move used on you. Additionally, factoring in the accuracy of the sleep moves, we can estimate that 1.92% of games involve you actually being put to sleep. The important thing to be thinking about here in regards to whether or not it should be banned is positives things lost vs negative things lost. Ultimately, I think that that a ~2% chance for such a move to even be used on you is pretty low and that the teambuilding value sleep/sleep users bring to the metagame is more important. As such, I don't think that sleep should be banned, but you can interpret this data however you wish. I wanted to provide a second figure, but after doing this, I realized that providing it take absolutely ages, so I decided to do it only for Snorlax, the most bannable sleep user.
Snorlax
The figure that I want to provide here is how often you will lose to Snorlax (the sleep set) in situations where you should have won. Of course, "should have won" is very subjective. I'll be defining it as any situation in which you win over 50% of the time. It's a fairly arbitrary number, but I think that it works well per a teambuilding mindset and in that there aren't really any non-arbitrary numbers here. The doc this time will contain a list of Pokemon that Snorlax requires 3 turns of sleep to beat, again, cut off after the 150th most used Pokemon. Pokemon which have complex matchups will have their own sheet dedicated to them so that you can see the math. We'll also be under the assumption that any given play is equally probable when it comes to things like Substitute. Here's the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AT2fBkSCJiw6-yeajf4dX9W69FCgQQ43LUzPZkGc6vY/edit?usp=sharing
The frequency at which Snorlax sleep haxes to win is genuinely pretty low so long as the Snorlax user knows the best plays (I was really surprised at how well a good Snorlax user can avoid relying on sleep rolls when I did the math) - only 3.6%. However, this fails to take into account the degree to which things have warped around Snorlax, specifically Substitute and Taunt. Against YawnLax, as a Substitute user, you need to use Substitute as Snorlax uses Yawn, and against CurseLax, as a Taunt user, you need to use Taunt as Snorlax uses Curse/Amensia. If you fail to do this, Snorlax can simply brute past you. While I put many things in the spreadsheet originally, I realized that 3 turns of sleep wasn't the threat - the threat was failing to use Substitute at the right time (Landorus, for example). The degree to which A) Pokemon run these moves with their only intention being to beat Snorlax, and B) players select the wrong move, expecting either a different play or different set. Another aspect of Snorlax's strength is its straight-up win percentage vs the meta. W for Snorlax win, L for Snorlax loss, V for variable/play-dependant
W
W
L
W
L
L
V
V
V
W
V
W
L
L
L
W
L
W
W
W
W
L
L
W
W
W
W
W
L
L
W
V
V
W
L
L
V
L
W
V
L
L
L
L
W
W
W
L
L
L
L
W
W
W
W
W
V
V
W
L
L
W
V
L
W
W
W
L
L
L
V
L
L
L
W
L
L
W
W
W
V
W
V
V
W
W
W
W
V
W
L
L
W
W
W
L
W
W
W
V
L
V
W
W
W
V
L
W
W
W
V
W
V
W
W
W
L
V
W
V
L
W
W
W
W
W
L
W
L
W
V
V
W
L
L
L
W
V
L
L
L
L
W
V
L
L
V
L
W
L
W
W
W
L
L
W
W
W
L
W
L
V
W
L
W
V
W
L
W
L
W
L
L
L
W
L
L
L
L
L
L
W
W
W
V
W
V
V
L
W
V
L
L
L
L
W
W
W
W
L
W
W
L
L
W
W
V
W
So all in all, we're looking at 49 wins, 35 losses, and 17 variables for YawnLax and 47/39/15 for CurseLax. Counting the variables as genuine 50/50s, that's about 60% of the VR that Yawn Snorlax beats. Perhaps not banworthy on its own, but frightening nonetheless. What's more frightening is the lack of reliable counterplay, however. Across the entire VR, excluding D tier, we're looking at 26 Pokemon that beat it regardless of sleep rolls, plays, or sets. Out of the 26, 9 need non-standard sets to beat it reliably. To sum that up, almost half of Snorlax "counters" are unreliable, three quarters of the VR is unable to beat Snorlax reliably, and out of its hard counters, 1/3 need to run off-meta/suboptimal sets to beat it. I think that that's fairly banworthy.
I may do another post in a similar vein for Deoxys-S and Mimikyu soontm
The math of this post relates to how often before you press the "Battle!" button you would expect to be in a match up that depends on sleep. As Osra mentioned, this is not a critical statistic in determining if something is uncompetitive. The stat that counts is when you find yourself in a match up with a Pokemon that utilizes sleep hax, how often is the match up going to be determined by sleep?
Also important to note (unless I didn't thoroughly read): the rounded up to 2.5 % of battles number assumes you are not utilizing sleep on your own team. If you are, that number would be immensely greater...
8/9 of the mons listed on your spread sheet have sleep dependent match ups over 50% of the time. Here again is a line from the Smogon definition of Uncompetitive: "C.) This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, SwagPlay, Evasion, or Moody, all of which turn the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not." In 1v1, for at least those 8 mons listed, sleep makes the battle emphasize the result of RNG over 50% of the time - which is the numerical version of more often than not.
I'm of the mindset that if one single aspect of a Pokemon is problematic to the extent of warranting a ban, that the entire mon should be banned, else we end up on the slippery slope of banning individual aspects of Pokemon like Recover on Deoxys-Defense or the indirect complex ban of banning regular Mimikyu while we keep Totem Mimikyu (aka Curse + Mimikyu).
Exceptions to this being widespread issues, such as Swagger/Evasion/OHKO, that can all be used on several Pokemon to perform similar functionalities to the main abusers, which would thus render bans on the best users of these moves to become ineffective.
Porygon-Z-> X8* (Ghost Conversion and a damaging move)
Slowbro-Mega-> Gets Sleep rolled
Venusaur-Mega-> Nope
B+ Rank
Aggron-Mega-> X9* (Taunt)
Blaziken-> X10
Donphan-> Nope
Gardevoir-Mega-> Nope
Golem-> Sleep rolls
Greninja-> Nope, you could toy around with Shadow Sneak, but the opportunity cost hurts too much
Jumpluff->X11
Naganadel-> Nope
Pinsir-Mega-> Sub mindgames
Primarina-> Nope
Tapu Fini-> Nope
B Rank
Altaria-Mega-> Nope
Chansey-> Nope
Ferrothorn-> Surprisingly, Nope
Garchomp-> Sub mindgames
Heatran-> Nope, not unless you have Sub, Taunt, AND Wisp, but that opportunity cost will kill you against anything else.
Heracross-Mega-> X12
Kartana-> That one Iron Defense set requires a max Sleep/predictions, but is still beatable
Meloetta-> Nope, not even with Uproar
Mew-> Nope
Necrozma-> Nope
Sableye-Mega-> X13
Sawk-> X14
Tyranitar-Mega-> X15* (Taunt)
B- Rank
Blastoise-Mega-> Nope
Blissey-> Nope
Buzzwole-> X16
Celesteela-> X17
Crustle-> Sub mindgames
Diancie-Mega-> You might get the Diamond Storm boost
Durant-> X18
Gengar-Mega-> X19
Hoopa-Unbound-> Nope
Kommo-o-> Sub mindgames
Swampert-Mega-> May the best bulky Yawn win
Togekiss-> Can hope to Arceus that it lands a lot of flinches
Whimsicott-> Sub mindgames/Grasswhistle
C+ Rank
Archeops-> Can roll for a low chance to kill with band, but is too unlikely to be favorable
Avalugg-> Nope
Camerupt-Mega-> Nope
Carracosta-> Nope
Excadrill-> Sub mindgames
Gallade-Mega-> X20
Latios-> Nope
Lucario-Mega-> X21
Marowak-Alola-> X22
Medicham-Mega-> X23
Pheromosa-> X24
Porygon2-> Nope
Scizor-Mega-> Curse gets Sleep rolled
Tapu Bulu-> X25* (Band/Taunt Grassium)
Terrakion-> X26* (Band/Z-Close Combat)
Umbreon-> Nope
Victini-> Nope
Volcarona-> Nope
C Rank
Blacephalon-> X27
Deoxys-S-> Nope
Entei-> Nope
Garchomp-Mega-> Nope
Haxorus-> X28* (Band)
Hydreigon-> Nope
Infernape-> X29
Keldeo-> X30* (Z-Focus Blast and hitting the preceding Focus Blast ((if they protected the Z-move)))
Landorus-> Nope
Latias-Mega-> Nope
Nihilego-> Nope
Ninetales-Alola-> Nope
Pidgeot-Mega-> Nope
Relicanth-> Nope
Thundurus-Therian-> Nope
C- Rank
Hitmonlee-> X31
Manectric-Mega-> Nope
Pyukumuku-> X32* (Z-Reflect)
Quagsire-> Gets Sleep rolled
Rhyperior-> X33* (band Superpower/Wrecker)
Serperior-> Nope
Salazzle-> Nope
Skarmory-> X34* (has to run bulk AND Taunt)
Stakataka-> X35* (Band Superpower)
Suicune-> Nope
D Rank
Abomasnow-Mega-> Nope
Alakazam-Mega->Nope
Aron-> Nope
Azumarill-> X36* (Band Superpower)
Barbaracle-> X37* (Band Superpower)
Clefable-> Unaware gets Sleep rolled
Dusclops-> X38
Sceptile-> Nope
Slaking-> Nope
Smeargle-> X39
Stunfisk-> Nope
Type: Null-> Nope
Vivillon->X40
Volcanion->Nope
Taken from an old and scrapped megapost I was working on back when Sleep was first being discussed, so the rankings may be a little different.
This one set has 40 hard counters (plus Zeraora) across the VR, 18 of which (as marked by a *) have to run a specific move, setup, item, or combination in order to be a hard counter, such that only the single set on that mon can counter Snorlax, as they would lose without it. This is dangerously close to the 2/3 point where something officially becomes broken, even WITH the assumption that everything is running something in order to beat specifically Snorlax. If you went by usage statistics instead of optimizing these matchups vs Snorlax, then that number shoots far beyond beating 2/3 of the metagame in a single set, thus making Snorlax as a whole objectively broken.
If we do end up banning Sleep (including Yawn) in the future, or even Normalium, then I think it would be fair to either directly unban or resuspect Snorlax to possibly be allowed back into 1v1, but since there isn't a clear consensus on either of those as of yet, we should stick with the lowest hanging fruit, being a Snorlax ban.
Before I write my thoughts on Snorlax by itself, I will transcribe my opinions on Normalium Z.
People have been stating that Normalium should be removed rather than Snorlax, but there are so far only two pokemon that I think abuse normalium in a way that threatens the metagame: Snorlax and possibly Porygon Z, for similar reasons. Normalium being banned would do more harm than good for mons like Meloetta, Kyurem, etc.
Normalium by itself doesn't have a universal effect that naturally overpowers the established metagame regardless of the Pokemon using Normalium, which should be the only reason why a move or item is banned, rather than a Pokemon. For example, Perish Song and Focus Sash were banned because they were both amazing on any Pokemon that used it, and heavily defined the meta and constrained teambuilding.
Normalium, it seems, only ever becomes overpowered if it can be used with a mon that has the perfect combination of moves, that being an overwhelmingly powerful Normal move, a recovery option, and a statboosting move. If a mon is missing any one of those, it can be beaten by signficantly more Pokemon than if it has all 3
Now for Snorlax: Snorlax in this Generation has an excellent and dominating strategy that has significantly affected the metagame, with over 50% of Snorlax users using the infamous Yawn-Protect-Belly Drum Normalium Set, based on usage1630 stats. This set basically guarantees a win to anything that only 3hkoes Snorlax, and gives a 66% chance to win vs anything that can 2hko it. I personally get Perish Song vibes from how quickly and effectively lax can end any match if it doesn't get knocked out quickly.
The crux of Yawnlax's effectiveness is the ability to not only put his opponents to sleep, but also being able to max his attack from any point of HP, since z-belly drum fully heals Snorlax before cutting his HP in half. This is all while the opponent is asleep, unable to do anything while the Snorlax sets up and wins.
Solid answers to Yawnlax are relatively few and far between: Taunt and Substitute are not Snorlax answers, by themselves. While, since lax is slow, basically any Pokemon can outspeed and use substitute to successfully block a Yawn, if the lax user predicts sub, they just attack, and most likely break the sub. This just leads to multiple 50/50s aka 'sub mindgames'. Taunters can still get yawned with z-yawn, or lax can still max it's attack with z-belly drum, thankfully not both at the same time, but in order for a taunter to beat lax it needs to be sufficiently defensive and/or get good luck with sleep rolls. In either case, these moves, while common, are not perfect solutions.
There are also defensive typings that can give lax trouble, like bulky Rock, Steel, and Ghost types. However, these rock and steel types are usually at the mercy of sleep rolls, and while ghost provides a solid answer, Earthquake on lax does exist, and not only deals with the rock/steel mons more effectively but also hits ghost types, who unfortunately cannot damage lax in turn with their ghost moves. Though that's often not all of what they have at their disposal, this shows that snorlax can combat it's supposed answers with one moveslot switch.
Yawnlax is the reason why I will be voting Ban in the Snorlax suspect: the utility, bulk, and offensive presence is too much for 1v1. I understand Yawnlax isn't the only snorlax set out there, but that's an argument that can be included with any broken pokemon, and since yawnlax is the most used set, that argument falls flat.
However, if it ever comes to the point that sleep-inducing moves are banned, I too would be fine with seeing snorlax reimplemented into 1v1, as Yawn truly is the main reason as to why the z-belly drum snorlax set was pushed over the edge.
These two statements literally summed up my thoughts on snorlax, the fact that it can already net so many kills with the combination of Sleep+Z move coupled with its amazing natural bulk at 165/65/110, AND an alternative with curse/amnesia recycle setup to lure mons that beat the prior set like metagrosses and aegislash. With a base hp like that if you just fill up 252+ on defense there shouldn't really be any mon that can OHKO Snorlax on the defensive normaliumZ set if it's max def bulky aside powerfull fighting types like mega heracross or a z-fightinium sawk/phermosa , correct me if I missed any, and then it goes on to sleep rolls.
252+ Atk Choice Band Haxorus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 444-524 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 414-488 (79 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (does 14.5% max roll on fake out)
252+ Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 392-464 (74.8 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 414-488 (79 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I know osra mentioned adamant in the set above, but it can just as viably run impish with not as much of a significant opportunity cost to beat some of the other mons(with sleep), mons you would normally expect to beat Snorlax. As mentioned before, It can also run curse w/eq or crunch over amnesia to beat mons like Metagross, Aegislash and Ghostium Porygon-Z , as well as Chip Away to beat other bulk up sub Pokemon like Landorus and Zygarade
Taunt may be a soft answer to lax but only mons like Mawile and Aggron and the occasional TTar can use them more reliably as they resist it's znuke even with Belly Drum, but it can easily play around other taunt users like Tapu fini with Z-Drum turn 1 and KO.
Unless there is a big meta shift in banning of Z moves (normaliumZ in this case) or Sleep, I feel Snorlax needs a ban seeing the current meta.
Everyone knows why I'm with ban so won't make it long. I don't think lax is the prob but sleep is but we will see. Yawn+bdrum+Nornalium z deals so much damage and hands you an L if you don't 2hko it, plus in some matchups it should lose like steel and rock it can easily cheesw victory due to sleep making its only counters ghost types and fighting to an extent. Plus curselax beats other stuff that bdrum doesn't beat making it, plus the set is good so it makes lax the owner of two amazing rotational sets that can't be discerned at team preview. That's why ban.
I'll be voting ban. This has been a challenging suspect for me because the debate surrounding Snorlax is very muddled by the competing issues of sleep and Z-moves, on top of the fact that I've never had a definitive opinion on sleep to begin with. That said, I believe the central thing that breaks Snorlax is that even though its coverage is so limited, and its moveset is further constrained by the necessity of Protect alongside Yawn, Normalium Z provides Snorlax users with a variety of tactics to squeeze by with a win against even prepared foes. What I mean by this is that the capacity to do things predicting a Substitute and hitting a regular Double Edge, predicting a Taunt and going for Z-Yawn or Z-Belly Drum (according to the circumstances), or predicting a Z-move and going for Protect is invaluable in the hands of a skilled player. Not that these are entirely reliable strategies, but they inject a great deal of uncertainty into Snorlax's matchups against would-be counters, as do the always-delightful sleep rolls of Yawn. This uncertainty is what makes players hesitate before sending virtually any Pokemon besides those with super effective Z-moves or insurmountable type advantages (sounds familiar...) in against Snorlax. The immense difficulty of reliably beating Snorlax makes it banworthy.
Snorlax has all the tools to dominate the metagame. The primary set has few reliable counters. I won't go into details as all the other voters have already done so but basically it has the bulk, offensive power with BD/Curse, and Yawn, and combined with Normalium Z is just too much for 1v1. So I am voting ban.
Going to bed in 5 minutes and will be away for the rest of the week snorlax has a very dominating set in zyawndrumprotectedge that on its own is nearing brokenness but it also has a couple good sets on the side like curse so ban lax bye
I'm voting ban. Snorlax warps the metagame around itself with Pokemon suboptimally running Sub/Taunt in an attempt to even check it, which is a total stretch. It puts massive strain on teambuilding, beats a huge number of Pokemon, and forces more 50/50s than is fair against its non-hard counters. although not as many as Charizard or Scarf we should probably ban those too You can see the math soon my post is almost ready
As Mez has cleared normaliumz is not for debate as a compromise and i was told my answer wasnt clear, yes to ban. its only casue of normalium z but as long as normalium is there its too strong so we will have to rehandle this later when normalium gets on the chopping block
Ok, Snorlax is Banned, so there's one thing I want to say. What do we do now?
There are a few directions that can be taken now to try to balance out the meta, assuming that it does need balancing.
A few of those things are:
Further go into the idea of banning sleep
Though Snorlax was a big abuser of sleep and is banned, some people may argue that there are way more abusers that need to be dealt with, like Jumpluff and Gengar-Mega. Though the community has come to an agreement (mostly) that Snorlax was broken, this is still on the table
Kyu-B re-suspect, or Mimikyu suspect
Kyu-B is considered by many people, not broken. They say that it's because of niche sets, like Groundium z and Specs, made people consider it broken, and niche sets should not be considered in the overall viability of a pokemon. On the other hand, there are people who want Mimikyu banned, as it is said that its overall versatility, along with the fact that Thunder wave+Curse Cheeses most games, and the checks/counters to that set might have to play 50/50s with Mimikium Z/Offensive.
Letting the metagame settle and make a judgment on what to do.
Maybe it's too early to tell what to do, letting the metagame settle seems like a good thing to do.
This is pretty brief and I will probably go into more talk when others come to discuss, but for now, I just wanted to initiate discussion.
Anddd another time im dumbfounded by the council. After a controversial decision in which they decided to ban kyu b and rachi, they promised to change and reach out to the community when they felt a change in meta was required. They haven't managed to do that and instead have once again come off in a way I don't believe they intend to. Im also shocked that once again they decided to not have a suspect. It makes the council appear elitist, and that it wouldn't be worth their time. A ban made by a good majority of a community rather than 9 people makes sense. It generally is a metric for where the community stands on an issue. Obviously you cant get 100% participation in a suspect, but its still a good indicator of where people would like the meta to head towards.
[16:20] Osra: The suspect discussion is over, if you have any grievances with the outcome, please direct them to the smogon thread, where you should have been posting when you had a chance to save Snorlax.
This is honestly childish. That comes off extremely condensing and arrogant. The council is once again deflecting criticism off of themselves and onto the community. They tend the blame game more than defending their reasoning. You don't want discussion because we don't agree with you and you felt we had time to influence the decision. The literal role of the 1v1 room is for 1v1 discussion. So why stop discussion after a clearly controversial ban? You were tired of losing to something and wanted it banned because it didn't fit your ideal of a competitive meta. If you wanted to make this decision that in which the community had impact, you would do what literally every other meta on this website does and hold a suspect. But you didn't. You can't just throw out these decisions without expecting backlash and get mad when you're decision gets flamed for being unfair. You'd still want lax banned and would do it yourselves with, or without the approval of the community. Aside from this decision, lets look at lax itself.
Literally every council decision mentioned lax and its prevalence with sleep sets. If you have such a big problem with sleep, why not ban it? I'm against the idea of course, but it makes more sense to me when all the complaints are about a certain set, to ban that prlbme rather than that pokemon. Lax has fun and creative sets and is one of the most versatile pokemon in 1v1. Those sets are being restricted due to a prevalence of one set in the meta. Mons like koko, kyu b, and others were good because no matter the set, it would still be prevalent. Literally the only lax set worth considering a ban for is sleep. The councils post themselves talked more about sleep being the problem than lax itslef. So why not just propose a sleep ban?
Kyu-B is considered by many people, not broken. They say that it's because of niche sets, like Groundium z and Specs, made people consider it broken, and niche sets should not be considered in the overall viability of a pokemon. On the other hand, there are people who want Mimikyu banned, as it is said that its overall versatility, along with the fact that Thunder wave+Curse Cheeses most games, and the checks/counters to that set might have to play 50/50s with Mimikium Z/Offensive.
you what
Kyub seems to be the benefactor of a lot of revisionist history here. According to this old-ass spreadsheet, KyuB with a grand total of 2 sets(Icium and Scarf) beat no fewer than seventy-seven percent of the metagame, and it's only gotten better, with Jirachi, Snorlax(a fairly hard counter to scarf and any special Kyub), and Koko (which ran fairium for this sole purpose) banned. And let's keep in mind that a lot of kyub's counters on the VR were on there SOLELY because they beat kyub. Terrakion does 2 things: beat Kyub and beat Charizard. Barbaracle does 3 things: Beat Kyub, Gyara, and ZardX. Genesect does varying things depending on set, but the gist is beat kyub and fairies. Mawile's whole schtick is beating kyub and gyara. What does Magearna beat anymore besides fairies? It used to be good because it beat Kyub. I'd say that a lot of these "most people" that didn't consider it broken haven't considered that. Kyub warped the meta to the point that steels and fairies were good because they were steels and fairies. Haxorus was viable because it hit a few speed points above kyub. Without Kyub, durant is outclassed.
Kyub does not deserve an unban.
Anddd another time im dumbfounded by the council. After a controversial decision in which they decided to ban kyu b and rachi, they promised to change and reach out to the community when they felt a change in meta was required. They haven't managed to do that and instead have once again come off in a way I don't believe they intend to. Im also shocked that once again they decided to not have a suspect. It makes the council appear elitist, and that it wouldn't be worth their time. A ban made by a good majority of a community rather than 9 people makes sense. It generally is a metric for where the community stands on an issue. Obviously you cant get 100% participation in a suspect, but its still a good indicator of where people would like the meta to head towards.
[16:20] Osra: The suspect discussion is over, if you have any grievances with the outcome, please direct them to the smogon thread, where you should have been posting when you had a chance to save Snorlax.
This is honestly childish. That comes off extremely condensing and arrogant. The council is once again deflecting criticism off of themselves and onto the community. They tend the blame game more than defending their reasoning. You don't want discussion because we don't agree with you and you felt we had time to influence the decision. The literal role of the 1v1 room is for 1v1 discussion. So why stop discussion after a clearly controversial ban? You were tired of losing to something and wanted it banned because it didn't fit your ideal of a competitive meta. If you wanted to make this decision that in which the community had impact, you would do what literally every other meta on this website does and hold a suspect. But you didn't. You can't just throw out these decisions without expecting backlash and get mad when you're decision gets flamed for being unfair. You'd still want lax banned and would do it yourselves with, or without the approval of the community. Aside from this decision, lets look at lax itself.
Dude, the suspect was in the roomintro and roomevents for an entire week, where were you?
Literally every council decision mentioned lax and its prevalence with sleep sets. If you have such a big problem with sleep, why not ban it? I'm against the idea of course, but it makes more sense to me when all the complaints are about a certain set, to ban that prlbme rather than that pokemon. Lax has fun and creative sets and is one of the most versatile pokemon in 1v1. Those sets are being restricted due to a prevalence of one set in the meta. Mons like koko, kyu b, and others were good because no matter the set, it would still be prevalent. Literally the only lax set worth considering a ban for is sleep. The councils post themselves talked more about sleep being the problem than lax itslef. So why not just propose a sleep ban?
Last time we had a public suspect test, Power Construct ended up being 1 vote away from a ban despite literally (and I really do mean literally, go and check for yourself) nobody making any kind of post or sentiment that it should be banned. If that doesn't seem fishy to you, I don't know what would.
Additionally, with COIL gone, the suspect system has to be remade. You'd think it would be as easy as making gxe requirements with battle count limitations, but we're not 6v6. We would need much steeper battle count restrictions, and to set a somewhat reliable point of gxe to determine whether or not someone is worthy of voting, something with such a high minimum battle count that it wouldn't be possible, or at least very unlikely, for someone to get reqs on a mere lucky streak of battles.
That said, I do still believe that public suspect tests were taken away because of the abuse of the privilege of voting, rather than COIL being removed. possibly both, but who knows/cares. At the end of the day, I believe the council acted in the better interest of keeping the meta healthy, over the irrational demands of the community who would literally rather discuss unbanning Zekrom than participate in a suspect test.
Last time we had a public suspect test, Power Construct ended up being 1 vote away from a ban despite literally (and I really do mean literally, go and check for yourself) nobody making any kind of post or sentiment that it should be banned. If that doesn't seem fishy to you, I don't know what would.
Additionally, with COIL gone, the suspect system has to be remade. You'd think it would be as easy as making gxe requirements with battle count limitations, but we're not 6v6. We would need much steeper battle count restrictions, and to set a somewhat reliable point of gxe to determine whether or not someone is worthy of voting, something with such a high minimum battle count that it wouldn't be possible, or at least very unlikely, for someone to get reqs on a mere lucky streak of battles.
That said, I do still believe that public suspect tests were taken away because of the abuse of the privilege of voting, rather than COIL being removed. possibly both, but who knows/cares. At the end of the day, I believe the council acted in the better interest of keeping the meta healthy, over the irrational demands of the community who would literally rather discuss unbanning Zekrom than participate in a suspect test.
people talking about random shit during a suspect is not "an abuse of voting privileges", its the council's fault for not making discussing the suspect a requirement, and for not punishing those people. Its also their fault for not making participating in the discussion or giving a ban reason in your vote a requirement. People will be allowed to vote for what they want whether you think its "unhealthy" or not, which literally every other meta does (even without coil).
I am glad to see Snorlax gone, as it is a step forward in balancing the metagame. I would believe that the next thing on the plate would be Mimikyu as its Curse set is just broken, and maybe look at Jumpluff.
Now about how Snorlax was handled. I believe that doing this way may look like us non-council users have no voice, but we have this discussion thread and the 1v1 chatroom to talk about the reason to ban Snorlax or unban Snorlax which I bet the council members took a look at before voting. The council members that voted gave their reason to ban Snorlax, was 9/9 votes, which is 100% ban, and I doubt a suspect publicly wouldn't have changed the outcome. It is hard to set reqs for 1v1 unlike let's say Monotype because it is much harder to maintain a good GXE without sniping and few people would reach the said GXE especially if there is only a certain amount of games can be played before starting over.
So this isn’t really about the snorlax suspect or any other really, more about the suspect process.
People keep saying that reqs would be super difficult to get now because of the new system with GXE and games played, and that because of that there would be less people voting. I see two flaws with this argument:
1. There are already a minimal amount of people voting since the council is doing it, therefore even if there were only 10-15 people getting reqs that’s still more than there are now.
2. While it is true that to make getting reqs harder the games played would have to be higher but this balances out with other tiers. Sure you might have to try for reqs 6 or 7 times getting 50 + games each time but when games only last 30 seconds it balances out with other tiers. Getting 200 games in 1v1 takes an hour and let’s say you had to get 80+ GXE over 50 games (this isn’t exactly what I would suggest but I don’t want to figure out the exact amount of games/GXE on my phone) that’s going to take 15-20 minutes per try, not a difficult feat.
I wouldn’t suggest this exact method however, what I would suggest instead is having a ladder suspect but also giving each council member a vote. This would give the council more control over the suspect, especially if only 10-15 people got reqs, and appease the community, alowing them to have more say. You could also include a requirement that if you want to vote you must first post on the forums explaining your stance on the suspect.
The council voting honestly doesn’t bother me personally, the community just seems more toxic than usual so I figured I’d propose a solution for the problem.
Thanks for reading!
I'm Sorry to tell you, but its a gimmick, and that certain gimmick isnt that viable, due to the prevealance of mold breaker mons like Mega-Gyarados, which is Currently S.
If you are looking for teams, there is a sample post on the thread.
Lemme post one of the teams, its made by UberLandon21
Incineroar @ Incinium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Atk / 20 Def / 108 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Darkest Lariat
- Flare Blitz
- Bulk Up
