Resource SM ZU Viability Rankings (VR Changes #375)

[jklioe]

B- ---->B/B+
I honestly believe that Seaking is in a great spot right now, with of course its primary niche being as the single best counter to Rotom-F in the tier, with anything Rotom-F can do being offset by between Protect adding extra turns of Leftovers and the option of running Icium Z to block Trick completely and to grant recovery with Z-Haze. Its performance even outside of Frostom is stellar as its utility has a purpose in disrupting many defensive and offensive Pokemon, and having access to Knock Off in particular and being able to use it comfortably is such a valuable trait in this meta when you consider the prominence of threats like Mareanie, Bronzor, or Tangela. Seaking can also check other offensive Pokemon well like Zebstrika and Rapidash, two fast offensive threats that threaten a lot of slower bulky cores due to their speed and coverage, giving it plenty of options for a defensive backbone to bulky cores needing to fulfill these holes. While its defensive sets are rather passive, there exists a limit in which one can punish its passivity, especially when compared to Bronzor or even Mareanie due to Scald, Toxic, and Knock Off also giving it some mileage in any situation. The other important thing to consider is that when I look at other B- pokemon, it's debatable whether some of their niches are even comparable to consistently countering the best Pokemon in the tier that's also the most consistently offensive threatening to ZU teams, as well as it countering this Pokemon in a way that even Mareanie lacks against Monferno (blocking pivoting move). There are very few, if any Pokemon in the B- or even B rank, that has a niche that equates to an attribute of that level. For these reasons, I think Seaking has more than earned the opportunity to rise from its ranking.

 

[275p]

Swalot from Unranked to C-


While it may look like that Swalot is completely outclassed by Muk in terms of attacking power, Swalot isn`t completely useless. It is actually a pretty decent trapper as it counters Gourgeist, due to it`s access to Infestation and Liquid Ooze (the latter prevents the healing from leech seeds). It also has high HP and good enough defenses, which makes it strong enough to at least survive one attack. He also has many resistances notably fighting and fairy and works well against Monferno, and Gourgeist Large. It`s typing also allows it to absorb toxic spikes. In combination with toxic, Infestation and Liquid Ooze, Swalot becomes a good trapper.

Trapper

Swalot @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 8 SpA / 124 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Infestation
- Toxic
- Protect
- Sludge Wave/ Earthquake

Set Description

Infestation is the only reason why this set works. It traps a foe with 100% Accuracy and it combination with Toxic, weakens him strongly. Use Protect in order to regain some health from black sludge. Choose Liquid Ooze as an abillity to counter leech seed, Giga Drain, Drain Punch etc. Don `t choose Sticky Hold over Liquid Ooze as it makes the set less viable . In the last Attack Slot, you either choose Sludge Wave ( for STAB) or Earthquake (against steel and ground types).

EVs are distributed to max the already good HP Stat
Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-795618417

Swalot walls Monferno and survives two Flareblitzes

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-795250148

Swalot survives a Fire blast of Torkoal and defeats it with the trapper set.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-795136588

Swalot wears down Gourgeist Large with Infestations

 

[DurzaOffTopic]

Swalot from Unranked to C-

View attachment 133500
While it may look like that Swalot is completely outclassed by Muk in terms of attacking power, Swalot isn`t completely useless. It is actually a pretty decent trapper as it counters Gourgeist, due to it`s access to Infestation and Liquid Ooze (the latter prevents the healing from leech seeds). It also has high HP and good enough defenses, which makes it strong enough to at least survive one attack. He also has many resistances notably fighting and fairy and works well against Monferno, and Gourgeist Large. It`s typing also allows it to absorb toxic spikes. In combination with toxic, Infestation and Liquid Ooze, Swalot becomes a good trapper.

Trapper

Swalot @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 8 SpA / 124 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Infestation
- Toxic
- Protect
- Sludge Wave/ Earthquake

Set Description

Infestation is the only reason why this set works. It traps a foe with 100% Accuracy and it combination with Toxic, weakens him strongly. Use Protect in order to regain some health from black sludge. Choose Liquid Ooze as an abillity to counter leech seed, Giga Drain, Drain Punch etc. Don `t choose Sticky Hold over Liquid Ooze as it makes the set less viable . In the last Attack Slot, you either choose Sludge Wave ( for STAB) or Earthquake (against steel and ground types).

EVs are distributed to max the already good HP Stat
Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-795618417

Swalot walls Monferno and survives two Flareblitzes

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-795250148

Swalot survives a Fire blast of Torkoal and defeats it with the trapper set.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-795136588

Swalot wears down Gourgeist Large with Infestations

You can't trap Ghost-types. Swalot really isn't viable, it's weak and unreliable. If you really want to use a niche trapper try Lapras.

 

[275p]

You can't trap Ghost-types. Swalot really isn't viable, it's weak and unreliable. If you really want to use a niche trapper try Lapras.

Lapras is weak to Stealth Rock and Whirlpool only has an accuracy of 85%, while Infestation`s accuracy is 100%. Besides Lapras has 4 weaknesses and only two resistances, while Swalot only has 2 weaknesses and 4 resistances. It also absorbs toxic spikes. If you want a proof that Swalot is viable, I can send you replays.

 

[Eve]

Lapras is weak to Stealth Rock and Whirlpool only has an accuracy of 85%, while Infestation`s accuracy is 100%. Besides Lapras has 4 weaknesses and only two resistances, while Swalot only has 2 weaknesses and 4 resistances.

that's irrelevant if the mons Swalot wants to trap are incapable of being trapped. Swalot's weaknesses are present on most teams, and due to Swalot's low power many things can switch in on the trap and either pivot to escape it or whittle it down. The only way I can see this set working is due to surprise factor, which doesn't warrant a place on the VR as such a placement would worsen the surprise factor.

 

[gniKapuF]

Lapras is weak to Stealth Rock and Whirlpool only has an accuracy of 85%, while Infestation`s accuracy is 100%. Besides Lapras has 4 weaknesses and only two resistances, while Swalot only has 2 weaknesses and 4 resistances. It also absorbs toxic spikes. If you want a proof that Swalot is viable, I can send you replays.

You can't really use accuracy as a valid argument in most cases. Hell, the most dominant mon in the tier relies on 70% accuracy.

 

[JustoonSmitts]

It's been a while since I've played ZU. Looked at the VR and was kind of shocked to see Oranguru rise. What exactly does it do in the metagame?

 

[5gen]

It's been a while since I've played ZU. Looked at the VR and was kind of shocked to see Oranguru rise. What exactly does it do in the metagame?

Oranguru acts as a blanket special wall and decent attacker with its AV set. It’s able to pick apart defensive cores such as Mareanie+Bronzor and whittle down other defensive Pokémon such as Lickilicky and Grumpig due its coverage options and Knock Off.

This post by Shuckledeath goes a lot more in depth and will provide you with a more detailed answer: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/zeroused.3629669/page-14#post-7883946

 

[Tuthur]

Hello that's my last day before I start university and I won't be able to play as much as I did and want. So I want to give my thoughts on the metagame before being (almost) inactive.
I) The broken Mon

I know this mon just dropped last VR update but I share Union Caboche's point of view on this. I feel that building against Vigoroth is really hard even if Substitute sets are in decline because of the raising popularity of Mareanie. Having a hard counter for one of its set is a pain for Vigoroth, however it doesn't prevent Vigoroth from being broken.
Let see how the Pokémon from rank S to B+ deal with the different Vigoroth sets ; by dealing I mean able to reliably switch into Vigoroth and then 1v1 it:

Taunt Vigoroth

Scarf needs to Trick or Freeze ; Icium needs to waste its Z or to freeze.

This is set-up fodder for Vigoroth.

Needs PuP to deal with Vigoroth, it can however Knock Off its Eviolite and stall some PP with Shadow Sneak. LO dies from recoil.

This is set-up fodder ; however it can annoy Vigoroth if T-Spikes are set up (but spoiler Vigoroth team runs a T-Spikes absorber)

Band is set-up bait if Vigoroth clicked Bulk Up on the switch. SD can overwhelm Vigoroth.

SD can overwhelm Vigoroth ; Scarf and Z-Me First are set-up fodder ; it can handicaped Vigoroth if it runs Knock Off (that's really uncommun)

Scarf relies on Focus Blast to successfully 2HKO Vigoroth ; SD is set-up fodder

Needs a lot of high roll for not being set-up fodder.

Scarf can PP stall Slack Off or crit ; Z-Encore can use Vigoroth as a set-up fodder ; however it is 2HKO after rocks by Facade/Chip Away and 2HKO by Frustration/Return.

Both Special and SD Combusken can beat Vigoroth ; physical non-SD is set-up fodder ; However Combusken is 3HKO by Facade/Chip Away and 2HKO by Frustration/Return making it a not that good SI.

Set-up fodder, can Knock Off

Defensive Grumpig needs to run Taunt ; Offensive Grumpig beats 1v1 Vigoroth

Can Taunt/Encore/Knock Off/Counter Vigoroth but is OHKO by Facade / 2HKO by Chip Away.

Scarf can Taunt / 2HKO with Focus Blast ; Nasty Plot can break through Vigoroth at +2 ; but Mr Mime takes massive damages from Vigoroths move.

Set-up fodder ; however the gimmick Block+Acid Spray set beats it.

Set-up fodder.

(fighting)Needs either Toxic or SD.

Specs and LO can break through ; NP is set-up fodder.

Same as for Monferno but it can surprise Vigoroth with an unexpected Toxic.

SubToxic beats Vigoroth ; other sets are set-up fodder.

Physical sets need to crit with Cross Chop ; Special Sets relies on Focus Blast to deal with Vigoroth.

Lurantis can break through Vigoroth with Leaf Storm or Superpower.

Can overwhelm Vigoroth with Nasty Plot and Specs but is 2HKO after SR by Frustration/Return and 3HKO by Facade/Chip Away.

CM, Taunt, Specs beats Vigoroth 1v1 if SR aren't up ; Scarf is set-up fodder.

(dragon)Set-up fodder.

(water)Set-up fodder.

Simipour beats Vigoroth but is 2HKO after SR by Frustration/Return and 3HKO by Facade/Chip Away.

Set-up fodder ; can Knock Off

Set-up fodder.

Set-up fodder.

Set-up fodder.

SD can overwhelm Vigoroth ; Scarf and Band can only Knock Off

Seismic Toss is set-up fodder ; Toxic win the 1v1 ; can Knock Off

RestTalk is set-up fodder, No Guard set can try to hax Vigoroth ; AoA is set-up fodder ; both can Knock Off

Set-up fodder, can Knock Off.

Set-up fodder.

Win the 1v1 but can't touch Vigoroth outside of Will-O-Wisp.

Set up fodder, can Knock Off.

^

Raichu 2HKO Vigoroth (OHKO with All Out Pummeling) but Vigoroth also 2HKO (Facade and Chip Away are roll after SR).

Set-up bait.

Specially Offensive breaks through Vigoroth. Physical can Knock Off.

Set up fodder if Mental Herb is consummed ; can Knock Off

Set up fodder .

Substitute Vigoroth

Scarf needs to Trick or Freeze ; Icium needs to waste its Z or to freeze.

This is set-up fodder for Vigoroth.

Needs PuP to deal with Vigoroth, it can however Knock Off its Eviolite and stall some PP with Shadow Sneak. LO dies from recoil.

Haze Vigoroth to death

Band is set-up bait if Vigoroth clicked Bulk Up on the switch. SD can overwhelm Vigoroth.

SD can overwhelm Vigoroth ; Scarf and Z-Me First are set-up fodder

Scarf relies on Focus Blast to successfully 2HKO Vigoroth ; SD breaks through Vigoroth.

Psywave rolls are in favor of Vigoroth.

Scarf can PP stall Slack Off or crit ; Z-Encore can use Vigoroth as a set-up fodder ; however it is 2HKO after rocks by Facade/Chip Away and 2HKO by Frustration/Return.

Both Special and SD Combusken can beat Vigoroth ; physical non-SD is set-up fodder ; However Combusken is 3HKO by Facade/Chip Away and 2HKO by Frustration/Return making it a not that good SI.

Set-up fodder

Defensive Grumpig needs to run Taunt ; Offensive Grumpig beats 1v1 Vigoroth

Can Taunt/Encore/Counter Vigoroth but is OHKO by Frustraion/Return and 2HKO by Facade/Chip Away.

Scarf can Taunt / 2HKO with Focus Blast ; Nasty Plot can break through Vigoroth at +2 ; but Mr Mime takes massive damages from Vigoroth's move.

CroMuk wins the PP-stall war except if Vigoroth carries the rare chip away.

Set-up fodder.

(fighting)Needs either Toxic or SD.

Every Beheeyem win the 1v1.

SD overwhelms Vigoroth.

Set up fodder.

Physical sets need to crit with Cross Chop ; Special Sets relies on Focus Blast to deal with Vigoroth.

Lurantis can break through Vigoroth with Leaf Storm or Superpower.

Can overwhelm Vigoroth with Nasty Plot and Specs but is 2HKO after SR by Frustration/Return and 3HKO by Facade/Chip Away.

CM, Taunt, Specs beats Vigoroth 1v1 if SR aren't up ; Scarf is set-up fodder.

(dragon)Set-up fodder.

(water)Set-up fodder.

Simipour beats Vigoroth but is 2HKO after SR by Frustration/Return and 3HKO by Facade/Chip Away.

Set-up fodder.

Set-up fodder.

Set-up fodder.

Set-up fodder but Vigoroth loses most of its PP.

SD can overwhelm Vigoroth ; Scarf and Band can only Knock Off

Needs both Toxic and Seismic Toss (really uncommun).

RestTalk is set-up fodder, No Guard set can try to hax Vigoroth ; AoA is set-up fodder ; both can Knock Off

Seismic Toss variant carrying Toxic wins the 1v1.

Set-up fodder.

Win the 1v1 but can't touch Vigoroth behind a Sub.

Can overwhelm Vigoroth with SD.

Can Knock Off

Raichu 2HKO Vigoroth (OHKO with All Out Pummeling) but Vigoroth also 2HKO (Facade and Chip Away are roll after SR).

Set-up bait.

SD and Specially Offensive breaks through Vigoroth. AoA can Knock Off.

Set up fodder.

Set up fodder .

So here is the list of the Pokémon from S to B+ that can at least beat one Vigoroth set:

(AV PuP)

(SD)

(SD)

(Scarf and SD)

(Specs, Scarf and Z-Encore)

(SD and Special)

(Taunt and Offensive)

(fighting)

(SD)

(SubToxic)

(Special LO)

(not Scarf)

(SD)

(Toxic)

(Seismic Toss+Toxic)

(SD and Specially Offensive)
That's a total of 26 Pokémon. But now lets take in account only those who can switch twice on Vigoroth with SR up:

(AV PuP)

(Taunt)

(fighting)

(SD)

(with Roost)

(SubToxic)

(SD)

(Toxic)

(Seismic Toss+Toxic)

That's now a total of 14 Pokémon. But now lets take in account only those who aren't trapped by Silvally-Dark (or any other trapper).

(Fighting)

(Colbur NP)

(SD)

(with Roost)

(SD)

(Toxic)

(Seismic Toss+Toxic)

(Pawniard)
That's now a total of 11 Pokémon. So here is the list of Pokémon that can deal with Taunt Vigoroth+Pursuit:

(Acid Spray gimmick)

(Silvally-Fighting)

(with Roost)

(SD)

(Toxic)
That's 6 mon (and not all their sets). Acid Spray Muk is way to gimmick to fit on most teams, Silvally-Fighting and Leafeon have no recovery, Oricorio needs Hazard control, Toxic Lickilicky can't touch Poison, Steel-types and Pokémon behind a Sub. The only reliable answer to both TauntVigoroth+Pursuit support is Lurantis. Vigoroth presence is unhealthy for the tier, it restrains the teambuilding way to far. I don't know why people aren't running Vigoroth anymore but keep in mind usage=/= viability.

First, Rotom-Frost case is different from Vigoroth's one in level of brokeness.
Rotom-Frost is the master of the momentum because it has STAB Volt-Switch coming from its 105 SpA base stats that causes heavy damages to every non electric resistant Pokémon. Volt-Switch is generally handled with Electric-immunity but looks at our Electric-immunity that aren't 2HKO by its secondary STAB Blizzard:

(SpD)

And those which aren't OHKO and able to threaten Rotom-Frost:

So bar SpD Camerupt, Seaking, Chinchou and Shedinja there is no Pokémon able to come several time on a Blizzard predecting a Volt-Switch. If you're not running one of these mon Frostom will just be able to freely Volt-Switch most of the time. Because Specially Defensive Pokémon that can take on both Blizzard and Volt-Switch are (outside of Kecleon) really easy to take advantage of because they are very slow (Muk, Lickilicky, Regice, ...). It's also very versatile between Scarf, SubSplit, WispSplit and SubWisp which can all handicap/beat its answers.
I won't expand to much time on this because a suspect test has already been hold few months ago, but I want to emphasize that Rotom-Frost is broken because it forces the usage of Pokémon which are useless against almost the rest of the tier (Seaking and Chincou are super passive, Shedinja needs to much support and Camerupt can lose under hail), a bit like Breloom forced the usage of Vileplume and Tangela in UU. Moreover the constant 50/50 makes this Pokémon really hard to handle as misspredicting a Volt Switch or a Blizzard can makes in a really bad position whereas Rotom Frost answers are often to passive to threaten the opponent back. The only things that hold Rotom-Frost is its SR weakness and its speedtier (which is still high for ZU standard).
II) The Pokémon that deserve more intention

These Pokémon really like that the meta has slow down and that most team carry Pokémon that are slower than them. Thanks to their coverage and huge firepower they can break through a lot of common defensive core like TangMuk and MarZor. People need to know they can run offensive Pokémon slower than Monferno outside of Trick Room and Sticky Web.

Ghost-type is incredebly good atm because they are super good at checking a lot of threats like Pinsir, Bouffalant, Silvally-Fighting, Monferno, Combusken, Chatot, Bibarel, Lurantis. I feel like people don't run them anymore because of the omnispresence of Knock Off. However even if Misdreavus and Dusclops becomes less bulky without their Eviolite they are still bulky, Gourgeist can burn Dark-type until its Colbur Berry is consummed.

Uncommun set-up sweeper are really potent because people prepare for the common one and stay weaks to the other one. A team lacking a Fairy type or Mareanie will struggle against Hakamo-o, a team lacking Gourgeist or Tangela will struggle against Bibarel, etc... They are good because of how uncommun and unprepared they are and how easily they set-up.

These Pokémon are less run before because they can't break Mareanie. However that's mostly wrong because they can. Union Caboche already stated it with T-Punch Combusken but LO Simis can also break through Mareanie, to be honest they can even run themselves Knock Off to deal with Mareanie.

III) Some of my teams
I'd like to share the teams which I've built and are effective in the current metagame. I sorted them in order of viability:

The teams

(built with Beksel)




(built with Quagsone)

Conclusion
I've really enjoyed the current metagame because I found that the teambuilding was really free (outside of the broken Vigoroth). A lot of different Pokémon and archetypes are viable in the tier which makes every team original. My biggest concern is Vigoroth which is really to much for the tier. Even if I also believe Frostom has to go, I can understand that some people wants it to stay. I also have really enjoyed the community since I became more active in the tier (right after Jynx's ban).

 

[JdRDMS]

Mini-noms first:

Silvally-Ice: Usually Useless -> C-/C
Yeah, I'm still with this. Not much else to say, but I'll link my other noms:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/zeroused.3629669/page-11#post-7855753
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/zeroused.3629669/page-12#post-7870421
(Also run Thunderbolt over Zen Headbutt tbh, Pyuku is hell)
I do have two more replays tho:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-802481020
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-806695429
Aside from Pyuku, it appreciates Ninetales leaving, as well as Supergeist and Altaria dropping.

Calcs for Shifts

4- SpA Silvally-Ice Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Pyukumuku: 88-104 (28 - 33.1%) -- 83.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock)
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 296-350 (79.1 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Multi-Attack vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 1036-1224 (293.4 - 346.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (it also OHKOs with +0)
4- SpA Silvally-Ice Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Floatzel: 194-230 (62.3 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Komala: 337-397 (100.8 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swanna: 345-406 (118.5 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Thunderbolt OHKOs too, but this does more)

Rotom-Fan: B+ -> A-
It's less out-classed with fridge gone, and it's been working pretty well for me. I think it deserves the rise.

Now for the real meat of this post:

Silvally-Fire: C -> C+ (Silvallys Galore!)
"What's this? JdRDMS using a Silvally that isn't Ice?! WHAT MADNESS IS THIS?!?!"
Yeah, I know. Everyone knows I love Icevallly. But eventually it became stupidly easy to prepare against me. So I decided to try Firevally. And discovered that it's pretty decent. Let's start with the set, by our very own Aleccat (fun fact btw).

Set

Silvally-Fire @ Fire Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt
- Parting Shot / U-turn
- Surf

So, as you can see, unlike Icevally, this is a special attacker set. Flamethrower is used for some nice STAB. Of the 23 mons labeled as "Fire Checks", 7 of them are weak to Thunderbolt: Basculin, Lumineon, Mareanie (which is REALLY nice), Politoed (lol), Prinplup, Relicanth, and Simipour. In addition, 10 of them are weak to Surf: Camerupt, Crustle, Shuckle, Dugtrio, Dugtrio-A (tho tbf that's already weak to Flamethrower), Golem, Lunatone (LMAO), Ninetails, Rapidash, and Solrock. Finally, Parting Shot can make the opponent weaker and the switch safer, while U-Turn can do a bit of damage while allowing Firevally to hit Grumpig.
Heck, those 5 moves listed in the set aren't the only options. There are three other options you might decide to run: Defog (because Silvally), Grass Pledge (which allows you to OKHO Relicanth), and Ice Beam (which allows you to OHKO Vibrava).
Firevally can do a good amount of damage. Here are some calcs. (Notice 3HKO'ing Pyuku)

Offensive Calcs

252 SpA Silvally-Fire Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 176-208 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dugtrio-Alola: 318-374 (150.7 - 177.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Basculin: 284-336 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Lumineon: 180-214 (52.7 - 62.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Prinplup: 134-158 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Relicanth: 226-266 (66.2 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Simipour: 230-272 (79 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Surf vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Solid Rock Camerupt: 300-354 (87.4 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Crustle: 200-236 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle: 62-74 (25.5 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dugtrio: 212-250 (101.4 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lunatone: 182-216 (56.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (the set is known as PU Offensive in the Calculator)
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rapidash: 190-224 (70.1 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Surf vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Solrock: 226-266 (59 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Monferno: 264-312 (98.1 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Combusken: 238-282 (91.1 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Surf vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Vibrava: 90-107 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- 20.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Grass Pledge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Relicanth: 400-472 (117.3 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Vibrava: 360-428 (118.8 - 141.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Thunderbolt vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Water: 166-196 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Silvally-Fire Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Pyukumuku: 124-146 (39.4 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Firevally can also take attacks pretty well too. This one isn't as long I promise. lol

Defensive Calcs

252 SpA Rotom-Frost Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Fire: 132-156 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
124 SpA Silvally-Water Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Fire: 218-260 (65.8 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Monferno Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Fire: 115-136 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Fire: 199-235 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mareanie Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Fire: 96-114 (29 - 34.4%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO

Finally, some replays. I know these aren't great, but I think they show off Firevally fairly well.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-802679970
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-803266134
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-803922800
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-806475473
And that does it for this nom. See you guys next time.

 

[BloodAce]

UU -> C

Pretty self-explanatory nomination, now that both Sandslash and Stoutland are back sand teams are now decent again.

 

[jklioe]

hi friends, i'm here to share my thoughts on the new mons so far, subject to change in the future ofc!

Ranking estimate: S - biggest threat in the tier with band having v few safe switch-ins barring tangela and mawile. certain things like mago berry bulky golem, bronzor, gabite, and phys def granbull can punish it but not to the extent of the former two. it also has decent potential to customize its set to have better mus against its checks, with work up+groundium z or darkinium z breaking through mawile and bronzor much more liberally. standout presence whether it's through sand or not.

: Ranking estimate: A - insane offensive support capabilities w/ its variable trapping ability vs all relevant steels, particularly for stout (checking this w/ steels would be cool and all if it wasn't for the fact this dropped alongside it, lol) but also other threats like muk, leafeon, chatot, oricorio, vigoroth, and aboma. tort no longer being zu means that it's not pressured to run hp ice anymore, so it can afford to act as a pivot with volt and be fine. the bulk it has gives it similar defensive backbone to kec in terms of blanket checking special attackers also, but it has certain typing weaknesses that require it to have the right mu to make the most out of its use. overall, it is a solid utility poke.

: Ranking estimate: A- / B+ - yay torterra is gone, a reliable and prevalent rocker that made it unsafe for sandslash to do its job as a spinner! this is quite huge as it can now adept very well in the hazards game in general, actively threatening all of golem, probo, mareanie, bronzor, and mawile thanks to its coverage and utility with knock off. i'm sure this will open a lot of options for viable hazard control in non-defensive hazard stack teams. dunno how it would fare for sand, but another option is nice.

: Ranking estimate: A- / B+ - phys def sets fill up holes for a lot of defensive cores due to its great blanket physical checking ability with intimidate, typing, and support movepool. this is huge since most defensive cores in zu have been notorious for being prone to knock off abusers and may have trouble checking the likes of pokemon like kecleon and pinsir. granbull is great for addressing both, while offering z-heal bell for a simultaneous cleric support and 1-time full heal and having room for coverage for things that can switch into its stab. choice band has like one gsi in tangela bc of its great damage output and coverage also!

overall, i think they're all pokemon with very practical niches and strong overall viability. what are you guys' take on them? where do you see them falling within the ranking?

 

[Aleccat]

UU -> C



Pretty self-explanatory nomination, now that both Sandslash and Stoutland are back sand teams are now decent again.

The (Un)Set

Hippopotas (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Slack Off
- Earthquake
- Whirlwind

The Replays

Match #1
Match #2
Match #3
Match #4
Match #5
Match #6
Match #7

I totally endorse this nomination. I meant to nominate Hippopotas prior to the Sandslash and Stoutland dropping, as I had climbed reasonably high on my main ladder account (this is ZU, mind you), but now that I'm sure that it will be in C-ish rank, after having been assured by several council members. While I'm sure many of you have noted me as a staunch stan of "unmons" or Pokemon that seem outclassed, Hippopotas has some very valid pros to it (as well as cons). Instead of listing them, or discussing them in a biased way, I'm going to share a coversation regarding Hippopotas, where I stan Hippopotas.

Disclaimer: Please no hate, as everyone was just discussing their points and how they felt about Hippopotas.

Aleccat: Challenging Misconceptions*

Standard, Garden Variety ZU Player
Today at 3:56 PM
ok
at least hippo isn't useless anymore

-------------------------------

Aleccat
Today at 4:10 PM
let's clear something up
hippo was never unranked worthy
it has the unique niche of being a physical wall that, upon switching in, brings a 6%/turn residual damaging effect
with reasonable bulk, reliable recovery, and phasing
and rocks
sure it had a laughable spdef even with eviolite, and some will claim it was knock off weak, but hippo occupied a unique space in the zu metagame even without sand abusers
i have replays to show me doing sand stall
7 to be exact
i might write a post regarding it today since it was nommed

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 6:42 PM
it is not
bulky at all

Aleccat
Today at 7:01 PM
that's false and fabricated
sure mareanie has a lot more resistances, but let's not forget
50/62/52
vs
68/78/42
even then, hippo can take on popular leads like golem

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:06 PM
mareanie has eviolite
lol
and no it can't take on golem
it gets toxic stalled

Aleccat
Today at 7:06 PM
it can certainly
whirlwind

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:06 PM
which burns sand turns too

Aleccat
Today at 7:06 PM
what golems run toxic nowadays

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:06 PM
most..
phazing isn't taking it on
lol

Aleccat
Today at 7:07 PM
it has eq too
beyond that

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:07 PM
eq does jack shit
like
40%
to 0def golem

Aleccat
Today at 7:08 PM
252+ Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 96-114 (28.2 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Hippopotas Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golem: 132-156 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
not outright saying that golem cannot deal with it
i am simply stating hippo can take it on
some sets

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:09 PM
0hp golem
90% of golems are max hp

Aleccat
Today at 7:09 PM
sorry
0 Atk Hippopotas Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Golem: 132-156 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:10 PM
yeah so like
40

Aleccat
Today at 7:10 PM
which is not at all bad

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:10 PM
then 12% in leftovers

Aleccat
Today at 7:10 PM
if we're assuming it's defensive golem calcs change too

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:10 PM
it just
toxics
also
why is your hippo
eviolite
lol

Aleccat
Today at 7:11 PM
...because i'm not using it for sand
LOL
i'm using it for sand but not for sand
like
using it to stall

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:11 PM
why not run like
cradilly

Aleccat
Today at 7:12 PM
sandstream, phasing, reliable recovery, decent typing, rocks. if i run cradily i have two grass types on the team i use it on too
also two fighting weaknesses
cradily can do like two of those

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:13 PM
cradilly literally has all of that besides phasing and irrelevant sand sstream
and wayyyyy better typing
and much better bulk
and passive lefties recovery

Aleccat
Today at 7:14 PM
phasing is not as irrelevant as you seem to think

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:14 PM
why
whats getting phazed in zu
lol

Aleccat
Today at 7:15 PM
+2 252+ Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 190-225 (55.8 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
hold on
bleh
+2 252+ Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cradily: 249-294 (66.2 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:15 PM
yeah so

Aleccat
Today at 7:16 PM
just an example
i'm not saying you're wrong in advocating for cradily but apples to oranges

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:16 PM
0 SpA Cradily Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Golem: 388-460 (128.9 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Aleccat
Today at 7:16 PM
right but it also can't phase

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:16 PM
so?

Aleccat
Today at 7:16 PM
and you'd run cradily as a special wall anyway

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:16 PM
who needs to phaze
when u can ohko
like what is getting phzed
in zu
name 1 pokemon that gets phazed by hippo

Aleccat
Today at 7:17 PM
you're neglecting sturdy and that if it is the typical, spdef cradily, that wp golem has a chance to kill

Our Queen
Today at 7:17 PM
Muk gets phazed by Hippo

Aleccat
Today at 7:17 PM
^

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:17 PM
ok so

Our Queen, Whomst We Stan
Today at 7:17 PM
I mean I don't mean to encourage using it on stall

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:17 PM
1 pokemon

Our Queen, Whomst We Still Stan
Today at 7:17 PM
it sounds atrocious
but you said to name a mon

Esteemed ZU Player
Today at 7:17 PM
ok
now name another
if ur muk counter on stall is hippo
then x

Aleccat
Today at 7:19 PM
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 116-137 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
i stan hippopotas omg
252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 93-109 (27.3 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 0 Atk Vigoroth Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 76-91 (22.3 - 26.7%) -- 28.5% chance to 4HKO
also 6%/turn + phasing on sr is not nearly as bad as you are claiming
i'm not advocating hippo as like s rank or anything
merely stating it is not bad as everyone writes it off as whenever it doesn't have stoutland or sandslash
and definitely worth ranking whenever stoutland and sandslash are not in the tier


Afterword*: Some names and details have been changed to protect the privacy and reputation of individuals associated. No person or entity associated with this nomination received payment or anything of value, or entered into any agreement, in connection with the depiction of Hippopotas. No Pokemon were harmed in the making of this discussion.

~~~~~

While I'm on my soap box, I would like to also discuss Lurantis. While Lurantis is placed where it should be on the VR (maybe A at most?), this thing wrecks unprepared teams.

The Much More Commercially Viable Set

lululemon (Lurantis) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Atk / 144 SpD / 44 Spe
Careful Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Superpower
- Aromatherapy
- Synthesis

The Replays

Match #1
Match #2

Daily PSA: Bring Lurantis checks, and also use Lurantis.
(Obamasnow and Frostom might be legitimate threats to it, but Yache Lurantis is always an option, and it's Froasty-approved. :D)

~~~~~

......very last thing:

hi friends, i'm here to share my thoughts on the new mons so far, subject to change in the future ofc!

Ranking estimate: S - biggest threat in the tier with band having v few safe switch-ins barring tangela and mawile. certain things like mago berry bulky golem, bronzor, gabite, and phys def granbull can punish it but not to the extent of the former two. it also has decent potential to customize its set to have better mus against its checks, with work up+groundium z or darkinium z breaking through mawile and bronzor much more liberally. standout presence whether it's through sand or not.

: Ranking estimate: A - insane offensive support capabilities w/ its variable trapping ability vs all relevant steels, particularly for stout (checking this w/ steels would be cool and all if it wasn't for the fact this dropped alongside it, lol) but also other threats like muk, leafeon, chatot, oricorio, vigoroth, and aboma. tort no longer being zu means that it's not pressured to run hp ice anymore, so it can afford to act as a pivot with volt and be fine. the bulk it has gives it similar defensive backbone to kec in terms of blanket checking special attackers also, but it has certain typing weaknesses that require it to have the right mu to make the most out of its use. overall, it is a solid utility poke.

: Ranking estimate: A- / B+ - yay torterra is gone, a reliable and prevalent rocker that made it unsafe for sandslash to do its job as a spinner! this is quite huge as it can now adept very well in the hazards game in general, actively threatening all of golem, probo, mareanie, bronzor, and mawile thanks to its coverage and utility with knock off. i'm sure this will open a lot of options for viable hazard control in non-defensive hazard stack teams. dunno how it would fare for sand, but another option is nice.

: Ranking estimate: A- / B+ - phys def sets fill up holes for a lot of defensive cores due to its great blanket physical checking ability with intimidate, typing, and support movepool. this is huge since most defensive cores in zu have been notorious for being prone to knock off abusers and may have trouble checking the likes of pokemon like kecleon and pinsir. granbull is great for addressing both, while offering z-heal bell for a simultaneous cleric support and 1-time full heal and having room for coverage for things that can switch into its stab. choice band has like one gsi in tangela bc of its great damage output and coverage also!

overall, i think they're all pokemon with very practical niches and strong overall viability. what are you guys' take on them? where do you see them falling within the ranking?

Also agree with all of these. Shoutout to jklioe <3

----------------------------------------------------------
tl;dr, public perception of hippo is incorrect and in reality it has general use outside of sand offense, and has been, and while it has serious counters and checks, it was performing better than a lot of the usually useless mons prior to the drops. also, abuse lurantis against unprepared teams for #freewins, sponsored by new york fashion week. sorry for all of the cringe XD uwu

 

[Funbot28]

New drops talk lets go:

-> S
Stoutland is as good as it once was being one of the tier's best wallbreakers with its Band set, lacking reliable switchins to its STAB + coverage options such as Superpower, Stomping Tantrum, and even more niche stuff like Play Rough. Its respectable bulk + solid Speed tier also enables it to come in and threaten out the majority of opposing threats. It has issue facing off against common threats such as Silvally-Fighting, Probopass, and stuff like Scarf Monferno, however the impact Stout has had on teambuilding already lets me believe it to be an S Rank threat that it used to be back in previous metas. It may face slight competition with Keckleon as a bulky wallbreaker, although Stoutland's much better Speed lets it threaten out more offensive teams more easily without needing to rely on priority.

-> A- / A
A great Steel type that can check annoying specially offensive threats such as Chatot, Oricorio-B, Rotom-F, and Silvally-Fire. Access to SR + pivoting and useful utility moves such as Taunt also leaves Probopass to be less passive then one might think, while coverage in Earth Power and its primary STAB moves also enables it to threaten opposing defensive walls as well. Being able to support its teammates by trapping stuff like Bronzor, Mawile, and opposing Probopass can be extremely useful as well for threats such as the aforementioned Stoutland, Mr.Mime, and Chatot. Abundance of physical weaknesses to common types such as Ground, Fighting, and Water leaves it out of the top ranks, but Probo has cemented itself as a pretty reliable entry hazard setter already.

-> B
Fairies are already uncommon in ZU so being a Fairy-type wallbreaker may seem like a great thing for Granbull where its coverage moves in Fire Punch and Earthquake enables it to threaten its checks as well. However, its extremely low Speed stat combined with the competition it faces with other threats such as Stoutland, Keckleon, and Bouffalant makes it hard to place Granbull on a team atm in my opinion. Although Intimidate support and other niche options such as Heal Bell and Taunt opens up its versatility a bit, it still is threatened out by common threats such as Mawile, Dugrio-A, and Roselia to be any higher.

No comments on Sandslash although I would suspect it to float somewhere in the C rankings.

Now for my own nom:

A- -> A
Lurantis has been heavily abused in both seasonal and snake draft due to it being one of the best deffogers in the tier while simultaneously being an amazing setup sweeper with Leaf Storm + Superpower combo. Its good bulk enables it to check threats such as Golem, Leafeon, and certain Electrivire sets. Other options such as Aromatherapy, Protect, and Toxic have also seen good use as well. Its low speed speed is really the only thing holding it back, although its good bulk mitigates this problem slightly. It also takes advantage in the rise of Rock types due to Stoutland's presence as well, while the popularity of Oriciorio-B also comes to show the effect that Lurantis has on teambuilding imo.

 

[Author_Pendragon]

I'm going to suggest moving Marowak to B or B+
It has an effective base attack of 160+, and decent physical bulk as well. It can't live too many hits, but it ORKO or 2RKO's pretty much everything in the metagame.

Since it has the highest unboosted attack stat in the metagame I have some calcs for you guys:

252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kecleon: 348-410 (107.4 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 176 Def Golem: 364-432 (100 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
To live a hit, Kecleon needs to have 252 HP and 52 Defense IVs or a +Defense nature, while Golem needs 252 HP and 176 IVs, or a +Defense Nature
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 336-400 (110.5 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Monferno: 372-436 (112 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There's nothing these two can do to live a hit.
As you can see, it is guaranteed a kill against 80% of the A+ rated pokemon, And it isn't too bad against Pinsir or Stoutland either.
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pinsir: 260-306 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Stoutland: 282-332 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO
And still, with the right set, you could ORKO the highest ranked pokemon in the metagame (Although only on a switch, as Marowak dies to a blizzard)
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 246-290 (102 - 120.3%)

 

[BloodAce]

0

I'm going to suggest moving Marowak to B or B+
It has an effective base attack of 160+, and decent physical bulk as well. It can't live too many hits, but it ORKO or 2RKO's pretty much everything in the metagame.

Since it has the highest unboosted attack stat in the metagame I have some calcs for you guys:

252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kecleon: 348-410 (107.4 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 176 Def Golem: 364-432 (100 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
To live a hit, Kecleon needs to have 252 HP and 52 Defense IVs or a +Defense nature, while Golem needs 252 HP and 176 IVs, or a +Defense Nature
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 336-400 (110.5 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Monferno: 372-436 (112 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There's nothing these two can do to live a hit.
As you can see, it is guaranteed a kill against 80% of the A+ rated pokemon, And it isn't too bad against Pinsir or Stoutland either.
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pinsir: 260-306 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Stoutland: 282-332 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO
And still, with the right set, you could ORKO the highest ranked pokemon in the metagame (Although only on a switch, as Marowak dies to a blizzard)
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 246-290 (102 - 120.3%)

Interesting nomination but I heavily disagree. The prevalance and ever increasing use of Knock Off users in the tier in tandem with Marowaks low speed find Marowak losing its Thick Club fairly often, limiting its wallbreaking potential. While its physically defensive bulk is alright, Its poor special bulk leaves it easily revenge killed by special attackers. It faces competition from other ground types such as Golem and Sandslash due to higher bulk/better defensive typing and speed/role compression respectively despite its raw strength. These factors leave Marowak mostly unviable outside of Trick Room, where it can use its power to full potential. Due to only really being viable on one playstyle (especially one that hasnt signficantly risen in viability), Marowak should not rise.

 

[Jmash]

I'm going to suggest moving Marowak to B or B+
It has an effective base attack of 160+, and decent physical bulk as well. It can't live too many hits, but it ORKO or 2RKO's pretty much everything in the metagame.

Since it has the highest unboosted attack stat in the metagame I have some calcs for you guys:

252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kecleon: 348-410 (107.4 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 176 Def Golem: 364-432 (100 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
To live a hit, Kecleon needs to have 252 HP and 52 Defense IVs or a +Defense nature, while Golem needs 252 HP and 176 IVs, or a +Defense Nature
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 336-400 (110.5 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Monferno: 372-436 (112 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There's nothing these two can do to live a hit.
As you can see, it is guaranteed a kill against 80% of the A+ rated pokemon, And it isn't too bad against Pinsir or Stoutland either.
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pinsir: 260-306 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Stoutland: 282-332 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO
And still, with the right set, you could ORKO the highest ranked pokemon in the metagame (Although only on a switch, as Marowak dies to a blizzard)
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 246-290 (102 - 120.3%)

I don’t believe you have addresses what holds Marowak back and the most the calcs don’t need to be mentioned as we already know a ground type wallbreaker can OHKO a Mareanie. It is true Marowak has no safe switch ins, it struggles quite a bit to make many impacts vs offensive teams by itself due to subpar speed and being weak to (Toxic) Spikes, special attackers in general, and especially Knock Off. Without proper support, it, at most, causes a one-for-one trade vs these playstyles and therefore is not very splashable. On Trick Room it does function better due to turning its poor speed on its head, but Trick Room is infamous for being inconsistent. While Marowak does have ways of breaking near everything, it must dance around pokemon like Tangela or Gourgeist properly to make the most out of your opportunities to break or else it’s wasted turns. Marowak in comparison to other grounds really lacks defensive utility or any actual utility when used outside TR besides being “the breaker,” so it’s hard to justify outside personal preference.

 

[jklioe]

New VR Update folks! For this one we'll be hitting the new drops at a quicker-than-normal process to give you guys an idea of the council's overall evaluation of their presence in the current metagame. This should serve as a good baseline to start things off, as well as to encourage questions and discussions that we're more than happy to answer for those looking to understand these Pokemon more closely. These placements are subject to change once we're ready to progress to the next full VR update, so be on the lookout for that in the future. Without further ado:

Stoutland -> S

Probopass -> A

Granbull -> B+

Sandslash -> B+

View the votes and explanations here!

 

[Absolute Infinity]

(anyone else remember beach cave?)

I’d like to nominate corsola to C/C+. I know that your initial perception might be that corsola is just horrible, but I have used it pretty extensively and think I can say with confidence that it can definitely be a valuable addition to a ZU team. I also know that it faces a lot of competition from mareanie as a regenerating water type, but I think corsola has enough advantages over mareanie to have a niche. The set I’ve found the most success with is max hp/def with rocky helmet.

Corsola’s job is to consistently set rocks while outlasting defoggers and spinners and chipping away at the opposing team with scald, toxic, and rocky helmet damage. Corsola has reasonable 65/95/95 bulk and can live through some surprising attacks, as shown below. Regenerator + recover is amazing for soaking attacks and keeping corsola alive, as anyone who has used toxapex/mareanie/slowbro knows.

Advantages over mareanie

-Rocky helmet and lack of knock off weakness; This is huge as corsola can easily chip away at mons using u-turn, return, x-scissor, multiattack, etc. Even moves like wild charge and close combat can be punished if they come from weaker attackers that can’t ohko mareanie. The lack of knock off weakness also helps a ton when pivoting around kecleon, which mareanie kinda sucks at.

-Stealth rocks over toxic spikes; This is debatably a disadvantage, but consistently setting rocks while outlasting defoggers like silvally to pressure rotom-F can be useful. Corsola also provides more role compression than mareanie since rocks are necessary and t-spikes aren’t.

-Better overall bulk; mareanie ends up with slightly better physical bulk than corsola is both are max/max, but if mareanie drops some physical bulk for special bulk it can end up frailer physically and specially.

-Normal/flying resist; nice for chatot, oricorio, stoutland, purugly (probably the best purugly check in the tier b/c of helmet + regen)

-Stronger scald; Corsola hits about 37% harder with its scald, which can be nice to actually hurt fire types and stuff switching in generally.

Obviously corsola has some pretty big flaws like its passivity and suspectibilty to grass moves that aren’t grass knot. The passivity thing is clearly not the end of the world, as mareanie gets by just fine with weaker scalds and haze (admittedly an advantage, but mareanie still has to switch out of lots of set up mons anyway). Corsola is generally worse than mareanie, but given proper support to cover its weaknesses (grass/ghost covers them all: grass/fighting/ground/electric), it can have a niche.

Edit: added more replays

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-808139935
Corsola pivots into stuff, sets rocks and outlasts avalugg despite being poisoned.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-808062764
Sets rocks, plays some pivoting mind games. Also Trevenant sweeps trick room.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-808534732
sets rocks before and after defog, takes a ton of attacks, chips kecleon with helmet
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-807116905
toxics noctowl, then uses its decent special bulk to live a +1 hurricane and stall out poison turns
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-808422222
outlasts a silvally fighting, easily tanking a multiattack and regening off the damage to ensure rocks stay up

And a bunch more from more recently, mostly from tournaments:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-823619744
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-834664887
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-829163768
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-826570302
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-826191724
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-826172420
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-826168499
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-823276963
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-823257433
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-820434095

Calcs

252 Atk Rapidash Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 124-146 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Purugly Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 117-140 (35 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 97-115 (29 - 34.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Silvally-Fighting Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 176-210 (52.6 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Oricorio Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corsola: 193-228 (57.7 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Electivire Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 234-276 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 252-298 (75.4 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 284-336 (85 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

I would recommend trying the mon out for yourself before dismissing it. Its easy to look at the VR and be think of all the mons that can 2hko it, but in practice corsola can actually switch into attacks that do ~50-60% and give your team information, another chance to outpredict, chip damage, etc. Switching it into a scarf electivire or scarf monferno for example is actually a perfectly reasonable play.

Give it a shot and make your opponents feel bad for stepping on coral.

set

Corsola @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Scald
- Recover

 

[Ampha]

C+ -> B-
I've been testing this thing around and it's incredible how this thing performs, Mareanie's splashability with Toxic spikes helps this thing a lot and while i've been using Double dance, both CM+ 2 Atks and Double do awesome,Double dance can solo some matchups with only toxic spikes support
gonna bring some replays later

 

[gniKapuF]

Munchlax: C+ -> C/C-

I feel like it's weird that Munchlax is in the same tier viability wise as things like Ninjask and Duosion. Munchlax doesn't really separate itself from Muk and Vigo that much, though it has more bulk than Muk due to eviolite and thick fat, it is more prone to being knocked off and tricked. Not just this, but it doesn't get any leftovers/sludge healing like Muk does. I don't see any reason why it's still at C+ when it is overshadowed so much honestly.

 

[Apagogie]

Some thoughts about the metagame right now :

Lurantis
I think nobody will think I'm crazy if I say Lurantis is one of the best ZU mon at the moment. Its ability to bring at the same time utility to a team and pressure the opponent is simply awesome. Several mons which were underused such as Roselia, Oricorio, Rotom-Fan or Silvally-Poison became far more common now due notably to their ability to check Lurantis. Its usage in SSNL makes it one of the most used mons. Have a way to deal with in any teams is became mandatory. Shifts after Shifts, it only becomes better. Amazing Pokémon.

Oricorio
Very solid at the moment for its ability to check comfortably Monferno and Lurantis in only one slot. I prefere personnally better the Scarf version than the Specs one but both work very well (I still think Oricorio Pom-Pom is better for Calm Mind though). The support it needs isn't as demanding as we can think, a defoger able to switch into Golem is enough such as Lurantis which is at the same time its best friend and its best enemy. Nothing else to add much except it's a pure product of the ZU meta, very good and pretty reliable. Its very important usage in SSNL shows it as well. Good mon.

Roselia is as well very good actually thanks to its ability to get rid of Lurantis, to absorb toxic spikes of Mareanie and can spikes in front of it. It gets an important usage in SSNL, present in lot of teams of finalists and semi-finalists. It enjoys the recent trends of the meta in pressuring the switch on the opponent with the hazards (notably it prevents the Rege-core to be effective). Sandslash is a great pick for Roselia too (a good spinner !). Good mon, far more easy to incorporate in a build than in the past.

Duosion
I support the amphareixon's nomination. Duosion is very very good, it's able to 6-0 some teams only at the team preview. It's far more effective and reliable than the whole C+ list. A replay of Raw Melon against HJAD showing how it can reverse some situations : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-810014297

Sticky Web
Sticky Web isn't the best playstyle ever and it suffers a lot at the moment. There are few reasons to explain that :

1) Hazards. Sticky doesn't generally have way to remove hazards and the rise of Roselia makes Spikes very common, Toxic Spikes of Mareanie too. Sticky is severely weaken by that which makes them still weaker to priorities than in the past.
2) Sandslash. Sandslash isn't only an issue because it can Rapid Spin (Sticky Web with a ghost type are rare) but also because it makes Spikes offense more common.
3) Sticky isn't as annoying as before. A lot of mons simply dont care to have their speed dropped, especially on bulky builds.
4) Common scarfers aren't affected by Sticky. Oricorio Scarf, Rotom-Frost Scarf, Chatot Scarf are all staple scarfers which cannot have their speed reduced. They are problematic to deal with to Sticky teams.
5) Pawniard. With Spikes on the rise, a mon which is often seen to support them is Pawniard to prevent Defog. Pawniard with an insta-boost of +2 is scaring. The rise of Pawniard makes too the team better prepared to Pawniard and so against Sticky.
6) Too much 50/50 with defog. If lurantis is the opposite defoger, it's always a 50/50 between Superpower/Leaf Storm or defog. If you predict wrong, you lose a mon.
7) Purugly is less effective than before. Purugly has the issue for the moment to have globally the same switch-in than Stoutland. It means bulky teams are well prepared to face it. You can still bring Gothitelle/Meowstic instead of the fat cat but they aren't as good as it.

All these points make Sticky webs match ups not as good as before. It stays strong against offense without spikes/pawniard but that's barely their only good match up actually.

Trick Room
Trick room is quite bad at the moment. The problem is relatively different than Sticky, the TR threats such as Rampardos, Beheyeem, Marowak, Bouffalant Band, Toucannon are still used but almost always outside of TR. Normal playstyles enjoy having a big wallbreaker to remove a opposite bulky mon but without risking to build a full TR team which is an autolose against some match ups. Casual playstyles are simply more flexible, have the ability to adapt easier to the meta changes. It makes the TR setter such as Carbink or Dusknoir almost useless because the mons which were traditionaly used en TR are not actually anymore. But there is something else, Weather teams win the same match ups than TR but in better. Weather teams are better because they are also more flexible, you dont have to run a full weather teams and outside of weather your team stays globally effective. You can run hazards removal in weather teams, you can run bulky mons in semi-weather teams, you can run other things than Chlorophyll/Swift Swim/Sand Rush/Slush Rush in weather teams. You dont have a lot of reasons to play TR instead of weather outisde you like playing TR. TR is suboptimal compared to weather. They have the same match ups, the same pressure against offenses but are just more flexible.

Weather
Talking about that, Weather teams are pretty good at the moment. Of course, it's certainly Stoutland Sand Rush you have tested or seen recently but hail, sun and rain are deathful to face without good counterplays. As I say earlier, their strength are in their flexibility. A full Sand or Hail team is difficult to built due to the lack of abusers, you will play generally semi-sand/semi-hail. It means you can run easily teammates which support effectively the weaknesses of your fast sweepers and you adapt according to the meta. Sun and Rain are in a different situation, firstly because they dont have a insta-weather setter and also because notably due to that, it's more effectively to play a whole weather team instead of a semi-team. Thankfully, they have good options to abuse of this situation such as Armaldo in rain or Shiftry in sun. The power of these teams make them difficult to deal with for offenses but even for balances or stalls. You dont necesserary have bad match ups in playing weather which is a big advantage compared to TR/Sticky or Screen teams. If they are probably less broken than in the past (especially rain, sand and hail are stronger now), weather stay the option the most effective to break the meta.

Outclassed mons now
Probopass came back, bye Golem-Alola. Sandslash came back, the last tiny way where Torkoal wasn't so much outclassed left as well. They should drop both.

Ampharos
It's me or this mon sucks a lot ? It's a bulky Raichu very slow which stays outspeed even at +2 in speed by the majority of scarfers. It's worse than the whole C tier list.

 

[Absolute Infinity]

I agree with Oricorio-Baile being very strong. Its typing is great both offensively and defensively, beating Lurantis, Roselia, Bronzor, Monferno, and Combusken. The ability to hit Rotom-F with Reveleation Dance really sets it apart from Oricorio-Pom-Pom. If it wasn't for Rotom-F, Oricorio-Pom-Pom might even be better than Baile, but Rotom-F exists, so electric/flying stab suffers.

I also agree with Trick Room being an awkward playstyle from playing against it due to the power of breakers, but maybe a less focused team could work? I haven't really tried to make Trick Room work myself.

@

What do people think of physical band raichu? It lacks most of the ability to break teams that nasty plot has, but it's way stronger right away and has the strongest reliable priority in the tier.

calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Raichu Volt Tackle vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ninetales: 288-340 (100.3 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Raichu Volt Tackle vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Kecleon: 306-361 (100.6 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Raichu Volt Tackle vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 324-382 (100.9 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Raichu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 145-171 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Raichu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chatot: 190-224 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Raichu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 141-167 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

E-speed is neat for picking off offense, knock off is spamable, volt tackle is very strong if not resisted. Has huge problems with grasses and grounds, but I think its at least worthy of a spot in other options for raichu. Thoughts?

Banded Raichu

Raichu @ Choice Band
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Volt Tackle
- Extreme Speed
- Knock Off
- Brick Break

I also still think Corsola is good. It's hard to get great replays from ladder, but here's a couple more decent ones. Corsola is rocks with regen, and I think its more effective than a lot of the C-ranked pokemon. It does still have the issue of possibly being outclassed, but I think its niche is well enough defined to move out of unranked and somewhere into the C-ranks. I will say that it is easy to get the wrong impression of corsola though, especially if using the wrong set. Moves like power gem and earth power might seem cool, but are just not worth it and make Corsola underperform in my experience. Leftovers are ok-ish, but rocky helmet is usually more impactful given how easily corsola can heal anyway.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-808958887
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-810573363
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-811074097
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-811068712
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-811046522

Edit: added a few more replays

 

[LordHelix]

I wanna talk about present recommended sets for frogadier, it should absolutely have dark pulse as a main move instead of u-turn/tspikes. As it 2hkos fat switchins to hydro/beam coverage such as grumpig, mareanie, silvally-water, bronzor with little to no predictions unlike hydropump/uturn

Also specs is definitely needed, without it many relevant 2hkos turn into 3hkos which is a big no no. Dark resists is already rare as it is, it doesnt need to switch moves

As a person who laddered to 78.4% (before i lost in a row, sob) i think frogadier should be higher, this mon is an excellent cleaner on offense as it just dark pulses/hydros through late game. Im gonna make a proper nom with replays calcs and all the jazz later

Quick thoughts on existing noms i agree with:
Corsola ranked: okay role compressor and sr setter, also helmet is super annoying since it lives every hit
Oricoro rise: very good mon which checks broken lurantis and monferno while breaking through defensive cores easily
Roselia Rise: checks broken mon which is lurantis and mareanie and is hard to switch into for a defensive mon and is a good spiker please rise

 

[Chandell]

I think Gabite should rise from B to B+ and maybe even further due to many beneficial traits it possesses. First of all, it Dragon/Ground typing is unique and effective in these lower tiers since there is a lack of dragon types, and ground helps patch up any resisting problems, such as steel while giving it neutral coverage against fairy. Its dragon typing gives it resistances to Fire,Rock,Electric and Poison which are very common in the ZU metagame, with threats such as Rapidash, Arbok, Whirlipede, Rampardos, and several Electric types whom Ice Type coverage renders you into nice Rough Skin chip, it is a team player seen putting in work in all situations. It's access to stealth rocks and ability to 1v1 hazard setters such as Mareanie and Rock types(Although anything that can eat Mareanie for breakfast is awesome.) Speaking of rough skin, this rare ability is so strong in this chip and hazard meta, that that in itself grant Gabite a lot of viability. It's main competitor is Silvally-Dragon, but it has Stealth Rocks, a Rock resistance, Rough Skin and Ground Stab as advantages over it's parting shot foe. It uses the chip from rocks and rough skin to get around it's "Counters". There are even offensive options such as Hone Claws+Z-Sandstorm but those will have to be examined for viabilty. Overall I believe it deserves at least a raise to B+. Special thanks to JdRDMS for helping me with this nomination.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-812885414

Calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Monferno Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Eviolite Gabite: 122-146 (35.8 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Eviolite Gabite: 141-167 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Gabite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 100+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 152-182 (50 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Electivire Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Eviolite Gabite: 236-280 (69.4 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Gabite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 276-326 (94.8 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO