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I would like 25f to go as far as possible in the direction of an attacker that is extremely hard to switch into thanks to its coverage and ability. I am really not excited about adding additional power to this mon via utility moves and recovery. I would much rather we give 25f powerful Technician-boosted attacks such as Mach Punch, Storm Throw, Dragon Tail, and Dragon Breath than defensive options like Morning Sun and Defog. I fear if we add those moves, then we will have abandoned the concept of an offensive Fire-type starter with Technician. Why should we, during this movepool phase, ignore all the previous phases of the CAP process that sought to create a very different type of mon?
Instead of Morning Sun and/or Defog, I'd like to offer the following moves to consider:
Mach Punch: It hits Greninja and Stratagem, while being next to useless against the Latis and certain sweepers such as Aurumoth.
Storm Throw: It is effectively a 135 base power coverage move that 2HKOs Chansey without a Life Orb, which provides a very interesting option against stall. It is very rare for a non-Fighting-type to be able to 2HKO Chansey without either locking itself into a move or dealing with recoil damage. The other nice thing about Storm Throw is that is also provides a great midground play, as it will do decent damage to pretty much anything that isn't a Ghost-type, meaning that in certain situations it could help a Banded 25f wallbreak or a Scarfed 25f sweep against teams that may have Ground immunities or significant Fire immunities/resistances (like Heatran, Kingdra, and Charizard X).
Dragon Tail: It is an extremely risky move that rewards aggressive play and has notable synergy with Stealth Rocks.
Dragon Breath: While almost always outclassed by Hidden Power Ice, this could be an interesting niche option that hits certain dragons, such as Kingdra and Charizard X, while also threatening the Paralysis chance on the Latis and other switch-ins such as defensive Arghonaut.
I think there are plenty of options left for moveset submissions that are great Technician-boosted attacking moves. If we want to realize our concept, let's focus on those options instead of throwing more utility on 25f in order to add power.
fear if we add those moves, then we will have abandoned the concept of an offensive Fire-type starter with Technician. Why should we, during this movepool phase, ignore all the previous phases of the CAP process that sought to create a very different type of mon?
I have to disagree. Being an offensive pokemon does not mean it can't have defensive and utility options.
I mean, look at Kartana - it can abuse Defog by forcing pokemon out with it's strong moves, similarly to how 25f could work with it's amazing coverage STABs. Or at the new UU Trend: Slack Off Infernape - being able to function offensively and also provide a free recovery turn against the likes of Scizor and Blissey.
I do agree with the addition of Storm Throw. I think it explores Technician greatly and provides good coverage. I am not sure about Mach Punch, but I guess it's ok.
Lastly, someone remembered be of Fell Stinger. Not sure how I feel about it, but it is certainly interesting.
I would like 25f to go as far as possible in the direction of an attacker that is extremely hard to switch into thanks to its coverage and ability. I am really not excited about adding additional power to this mon via utility moves and recovery. I would much rather we give 25f powerful Technician-boosted attacks such as Mach Punch, Storm Throw, Dragon Tail, and Dragon Breath than defensive options like Morning Sun and Defog. I fear if we add those moves, then we will have abandoned the concept of an offensive Fire-type starter with Technician. Why should we, during this movepool phase, ignore all the previous phases of the CAP process that sought to create a very different type of mon?
Instead of Morning Sun and/or Defog, I'd like to offer the following moves to consider:
Mach Punch: It hits Greninja and Stratagem, while being next to useless against the Latis and certain sweepers such as Aurumoth.
Storm Throw: It is effectively a 135 base power coverage move that 2HKOs Chansey without a Life Orb, which provides a very interesting option against stall. It is very rare for a non-Fighting-type to be able to 2HKO Chansey without either locking itself into a move or dealing with recoil damage. The other nice thing about Storm Throw is that is also provides a great midground play, as it will do decent damage to pretty much anything that isn't a Ghost-type, meaning that in certain situations it could help a Banded 25f wallbreak or a Scarfed 25f sweep against teams that may have Ground immunities or significant Fire immunities/resistances (like Heatran, Kingdra, and Charizard X).
Dragon Tail: It is an extremely risky move that rewards aggressive play and has notable synergy with Stealth Rocks.
Dragon Breath: While almost always outclassed by Hidden Power Ice, this could be an interesting niche option that hits certain dragons, such as Kingdra and Charizard X, while also threatening the Paralysis chance on the Latis and other switch-ins such as defensive Arghonaut.
I think there are plenty of options left for moveset submissions that are great Technician-boosted attacking moves. If we want to realize our concept, let's focus on those options instead of throwing more utility on 25f in order to add power.
Not giving CAPf any defensive Utility will be the nail in its viability coffin. Just because a Pokemon is offensive does not mean we cannot have utility or recovery.
Mega Latios and Mega Alakazam are two of the best Megas around, and are offensive Pokemon, but Recover is STANDARD on their sets. Tornadus-T always runs Defog, but Its still a potent offensive threat with a Supersonic Skystrike nuke in the back. Just because an offensive Pokemon has utility moves does not make it any less of an offensive mon. Having access to Recover or another healing move allows us to gain HP lost from recoil, especially on the many switches this mon can gain (e.g against Tapu Koko).
That being said, I do agree that SOME of the mentioned attacks can be added. ronald le preaux why do you not actually make a set explaining the moves you suggested and how they potentially interact with its other movepool. I am pretty sure its the only way to actually get moves approved
I fear if we add those moves, then we will have abandoned the concept of an offensive Fire-type starter with Technician. Why should we, during this movepool phase, ignore all the previous phases of the CAP process that sought to create a very different type of mon?
As already pointed out, these moves do not abandon the concept. Many successful offensive pokemon use some sort of utility moves, whether it be Recover (Alakazam-Mega, Lati@s-Mega,) Defog (Kartana, Tornadus-T) or Spikes/Tspikes (Greninja.) Beyond this, I believe that denying these moves would ignore the previous phases far more than allowing them. In typing, one of the positives of Fire/Ground was its ability to pivot in on various pokemon in the metagame. Recovery only helps 25f do this. Similarly, in stats we wanted to create a bulky wallbreaker, and while this ended up not being possible due to our stat limitations, both Morning Sun and Will-o-Wisp help towards that goal.
Mach Punch: From my perspective, this is a mostly harmless move. It mainly helps our match-up against Greninja, but even then it doesnt help against Ash-Greninja. The only other match-up it changes that is significant is that it helps us bypass Colossoil's Sucker Punch, and I'm not sure if this is a positive or a negative. Currently I'm fine with Mach Punch.
Storm Throw: With Technician, Storm Throw becomes a 90 BP Fighting move with a psuedo-STAB boost. This is a unique interaction between movepool and ability that I believe to be pro-concept. Alongside this, I don't believe that there are any significant match-ups that are affected by this move, so I don't see a competitive reason to deny it. Due to this, I support Storm Throw.
Dragon Tail: Unlike the other two, I believe this move to be an incredibly bad idea. Dragon Tail makes the Lati@s twins a much shakier check, as they risk taking over 50% on the switch before being switched out themselves.
252 Atk Technician Camerupt Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 182-216 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Technician Camerupt Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
Keep in mind that this move switches out the target afterwords, so when you switch your defensive check (or offensive check) in it takes hazards, the attack and is switched out afterwards denying it to pressure or recover. For this reason, I highly disagree with the inclusion of Dragon Tail.
Dragon Breath: This is a Technician boosted move that likely wouldn't be run as its generally inferior to HP Ice in a moveslot.
EDIT: Forgot to do what I actually wanted to talk about. On the topic of Morning Sun and Will-o-Wisp, I support both. As stated above, Morning Sun allows us to have longevity throughout a match, which is necessary due to our sub-optimal bulk. While our Fire/Ground typing gives us many resists, we cannot actually use them well if we do not have a 50% recovery move.
The primary issue Cbrevan brought up with Will-o-Wisp is that it pressures Gyarados on the switch. While it is true, Gyarados still comfortably beats us in the 1v1 and while it maybe less effective elsewhere in the match, it still works as a 25f check. However, I believe that we should allow Will-o-Wisp as it allows 25f to have more utility during a match, and it creates more competition for its fourth slot. A very common set in Discord and in submissions here is Fire STAB/Ground STAB/HP Ice/Utility where the utility is toxic/morning sun/stealth rocks. Will-o-Wisp allows for more team building options in that last slot, and it also paves the way for possible new sets in the future such as a double status set or a defensive set (similar to the previous moveset submission.)
Lastly, I personally have had very little faith in the viability on 25f since the removal of Bonemerang. Morning Sun and Will-o-Wisp have changed this view, giving the CAP new ways to go about a match, and give it more options should the standard 3 attacks/utility prove less viable than many people are expecting.
That being said, I do agree that SOME of the mentioned attacks can be added. ronald le preaux why do you not actually make a set explaining the moves you suggested and how they potentially interact with its other movepool. I am pretty sure its the only way to actually get moves approved
Flare Blitz and Flame Wheel are approved Fire STAB options.
Earthquake and Bulldoze are approved Ground STAB options.
Storm Throw is a great filler move, becoming essentially a 135 BP Fighting move thanks to the guaranteed crit. It hits Stratagem on the switch and deals a huge amount to Chansey, 2HKOing even if 25f gets its Choice Band knocked off. It is not very effective against 25f's main counters, such as Pelipper and the Latis, but it has great overall coverage and can do things like threaten an OHKO on Scarf Volkraken after rocks. 252 Atk Choice Band Technician Camerupt Storm Throw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken on a critical hit: 245-289 (71.6 - 84.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
On the other hand, Dragon Tail is a high risk, high reward prediction based move that can slam incoming Dragons. The cost of being able to take out Latios on the switch is very high, and this low-priority move could easily become a death sentence for a fast and frail mon like 25f.
Bullet Punch is probably the most viable priority attack, but Mach Punch can be run to deal good damage to Greninja and pick off weakened foes that Bullet Punch cannot handle, such as Choice Scarf Volkraken and Belly Drum Cawmodore.
Dragon Breath is probably more of a flavor move, since it is pretty inferior to HP Ice, so I don't think it's likely to be disallowed. It's basically just HP Dragon, which 25f has access to anyway, but with a paralysis chance.
Storm Throw shouldnt happen, it lets us beat Chansey which is a hard check to this mon and on our threat list. We talked in earlier stages that the coverage of this mon is so strong that walls will be relying on having high physical bulk and taking hits neutrally in order to stop it, and Chansey fits that bill. Its also a mon that can actually handle dual STAB + toxic thanks to its ability, which is incredibly rare. Idk why people are bothered by the idea of Chansey walling something on the physical side lol. Its a mixed wall, and handles it better than almost every other pokemon on the threat list defensively thanks to even dissuading its Flare Blitz.
I also dont like that it hits Hydreigon and Stratagem, two more pokemon with the rare ability to handle our dual STAB, plus improves its scarfing set tenfold with an effective third STAB. When I think of this pokemon, I dont imagine a mon that can ohko Stratagem, Mega Gyarados, Colossoil, or Hydreigon. Its not really relevant but it also can ohko mega aero off of our threat list with LO.
Storm Throw shouldnt happen, it lets us beat Chansey which is a hard check to this mon and on our threat list. We talked in earlier stages that the coverage of this mon is so strong that walls will be relying on having high physical bulk and taking hits neutrally in order to stop it, and Chansey fits that bill. Its also a mon that can actually handle dual STAB + toxic thanks to its ability, which is incredibly rare. Idk why people are bothered by the idea of Chansey walling something on the physical side lol. Its a mixed wall, and handles it better than almost every other pokemon on the threat list defensively thanks to even dissuading its Flare Blitz.
I also dont like that it hits Hydreigon and Stratagem, two more pokemon with the rare ability to handle our dual STAB, plus improves its scarfing set tenfold with an effective third STAB. When I think of this pokemon, I dont imagine a mon that can ohko Stratagem, Mega Gyarados, Colossoil, or Hydreigon. Its not really relevant but it also can ohko mega aero off of our threat list with LO.
A physical attacker that can't break through Chansey is a sad excuse for a physical attacker. Especially for what is supposed to be a wallbreaker. Chansey is a special wall. As far as the other mons you mentioned, Stratagem is already OHKOd by an approved move:
252 Atk Life Orb Technician CAP25F Force Palm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 335-395 (104.3 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Without LO, bullet punch would do just as well:
252 Atk Technician CAP25F Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 172-204 (53.5 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Aerodactyl isn't guaranteed to be OHKOd by storm throw even with LO and rocks, but does have a good chance of being 2HKOd by bullet punch unboosted and without rocks:
252 Atk Life Orb Technician CAP25F Storm Throw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl-Mega on a critical hit: 201-238 (66.7 - 79%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician CAP25F Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 138-164 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO
If someone wants to throw away their 25f counter by Mega Evolving their Gyarados, that's on them. I'm not going to even bother calcing that.
Hydreigon is hardly a relevant Pokemon in the meta.
And for Colossoil, I think it's fine if 25f can OHKO it. It's not a mon that can switch in safely anyways and it can still revenge kill with sucker punch if 25f is a bit weakened.
Sorry for the delay everyone, I've been busy irl but that's not much of an excuse to spend three days on a closing post. Moving forward I'll make sure to prepare these things beforehand. Onto the topic at hand, this is our closing post for 25f's movesets. In this post I'll provide feedback not only on the last 48 hours of discussion, but also touch upon various movesets that were brought up and dead ended in discussion. The reason for doing so is to address any competitive concerns with these movesets in this stage rather than push them off to the movepool stage. I've also included the final list of movesets and disallowed moves which will be updated to the second post once I get movepool up.
Starting with some feedback on movesets:
Name: Choice Scarf
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: Gunk Shot
Move 4: Bullet Punch / Will-O-Wisp / Defog / Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Hasty
This set is approved. The set takes advantage of 25f's favorable base speed for a scarfer to be able to revenge kill Pokemon such as Aurumoth and Zygarde. Gunk Shot had several posts supporting it and Deck Knight provided a reasonable explanation as to why its needed for the Scarf set. It was noted that Gunk Shot does impact the Clefable and Pyroak matchups but it didn't appear that people were concerned about this as we're able to pressure them depending on move choice regardless.
Defog saw Some support over the course of the thread and hasn't been objected to. Defog is a powerful enough move that it would help bolster 25f's viability in the case that it fails in its role as a wallbreaker. It also would work well on other sets and give reason to pick 25f over other Fire-types. Since it did see some support over the last couple of says, I'm inclined to approve it.
Name: SpDef
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Will-O-Wisp
Move 3: Morning Sun
Move 4: Stealth Rocks / Taunt / Earthquake
Ability: Blaze
Item: Leftovers / Iapapa berry
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
This set is approved. Morning Sun, Will-O-Wisp, and Taunt all saw support over the course of the thread, enough for me to feel comfortable approving them alongside this set. Morning Sun helps 25f take advantage of its typing to reliably switch into Pokemon such as Tapu Koko, Will-o-Wisp helps enable bulkier sets along side Morning Sun, and Taunt was seen as a powerful utility option that also supported the wallbreaker role we are pursuing. All three moves come together in this set to fully take advantage of both 25f's typing and ability to force out Pokemon such as Tapu Koko and Mega Scizor.
Name: Agility + 3 Attacks Cleaner
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 3: Bone Rush / Earthquake
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Electric
Ability: Technician
Item: Z Crystal / Expert Belt / Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty (+Spe, -Def)
This set is unapproved. Agility is very similiar to Flame Charge in what it does, with the difference being Flame Charge can be used as a STAB move while Agility allows 25f to beat every relevant Scarf user in the tier. The arguments against Flame Charge, mainly that it can utilize a forced switch and snowball games against offense, are still present here. While Agility wouldn't be as easy to set up, the end result would be superior in terms of what could check it. Since Flame Charge was objected for balance reasons relating to how it allowed 25f to game the offense matchup, and Agility is a competitive move that does the same thing, Agility (and Rock Polish) will be disallowed.
Name: Omniboosting lizard
Move 1: Celebration
Move 2: Bulldoze / Earthquake
Move 3: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 4: Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Electric]
Ability: Technician / Blaze
Item: Normalium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Approved. This was a difficult choice to make in respects to balance, since we did put a stop to Flame Charge and now Agility for being able to game the offense matchup. While this set does do that, it did receive fairly positive support for being a less viable option that seeks to turn 25f into a win condition. The reliance on Normalium Z limits what the set can do before setting up, and even after setting up, Pokemon such as Tomohawk and Arghonaut would still be able to handily shut it down. Z boosting sets in general aren't successful in the CAP meta precisely because of Tomohawk, and for a Pokemon that wouldn't be able to trade 1v1 with the hardest stop to said strategy, I'm not concerned with this set being overpowering. If anything I would expect this set to amount to nothing more than a gimmick as opposed to a legitimate win condition.
Name: Physical Attacker
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: Storm Throw
Move 4: Bullet Punch / Mach Punch
Ability: Technician
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
This set is approved. Storm Throw has been supported but also objected on the grounds that it breaks through Chansey; however, 25f is able to break through Chansey through other means, such as the recently approved SpDef set, so having Chansey be a worse check to some sets doesn't seem to be a major issue. Mach Punch mainly targets Greninja and Stratagem and has little impact outside of those matchups, and also saw prior support in the thread.
Name: Phazer
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: Circle Throw
Move 4: Stealth Rock / Morning Sun
Ability: Technician
Item: Shuca Berry / Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly (+Spe -SpA)
This set is approved. I stated earlier that I would approve this set without Spikes and Toxic Spikes if posters found those two moves objectionable. Since then, both Spikes and Toxic Spikes have been objected for being too much on 25f and too punishing towards switch ins. With the number of options we're allowing 25f, including recovery, Stealth Rocks, Taunt, and priority moves, access to Spikes and Toxic Spices to help bolster viability is unneeded. This set uses Circle Throw to help rack chip damage on defensive switchins while still having a poor matchup against checks such as Clefable and Mega Latis.
Name: Sun Sweeper
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: Solar Blade / Sunny Day
Move 4: HP Ice
Ability: Technician / Blaze
Item: Firium Z / Grassium Z / Groundium Z / Life Orb
Unapproved. While Grass coverage did see discussion earlier by way of Bullet Seed movesets, Grass coverage hasn't seen any recent discussion. In light of the fact that Gunk Shot will be allowed, which is already a high powered coverage move aimed at some of our checks, I feel like allowing Grass-type coverage in addition to it would be too much. This isn't to say that I'm concerned about both Poison and Grass coverage on a single set, but that it would force players to play around the existence of either move before the set is revealed. Solar Blade, while niche, does have a reasonably reliable activator in Jumbao, and at the very least, would work as a lure move on a Grassium Z set to remove Pokemon such as Arghonaut.
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Bulldoze / Earthquake
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Bullet Seed
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb / Choice Band / Soft Sand
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Adamant
Unapproved. Like the above set, Grass coverage is too much alongside the other tools we've given 25f. Bullet Seed alongside Technician would have 112.5 average BP, which is well above the norm for Grass-type coverage.
Set Name: special lure (balance breaker)
Move 1: Overheat / Fire Blast / Incinerate
Move 2: Mud Shot / Earth Power
Move 3: Solar Beam / Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Acid Spray / Fire Spin / Sand Tomb
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Item: Grassium Z / Groundium Z / Firium Z / Shuca Berry
Approved. A couple of special sets have been posted out of an odd desire to utilize our 88 base special attack; this was the set I chose to approve. Nothing special here outside of Acid Spray, which is what enables this set to put out meaningful damage to switchins.
Name: Priority Attacker
Move 1: Fake Out
Move 2: Bullet Punch / Feint
Move 3: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 4: Bone Rush / Earthquake / Bulldoze
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Unapproved. While we've already approved other priority moves, Fake Out does equate to free damage against Pokemon like Scarf Greninja and Volkraken. Alongside moves such as Mach Punch and Bullet Punch, 25f would be able to revenge kill Pokemon such as Protean Greninja and Syclant. Even in less than optimal cases the chip damage would still come into play against Pokemon who lack recovery, such as Scarfers.
Now moving onto the moveset summary:
The following sets have all been approved:
Name: 3 Attacks Breaker
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Toxic / Stealth Rock
Ability: Technician
Item: Soft Sand / Groundium Z / Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Name: All Out Attacker
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: HP Ice / HP Electric
Move 4: Bullet Punch / Force Palm / Poison Fang
Ability: Technician
Item: Z Crystal / Expert Belt / Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty (+Spe -Def)
The following list of moves is comprised of every move from the approved movesets. This list will constitute the bulk of our mandated moves for the movepool stage.
Flare Blitz, Flame Wheel, Bulldoze, Earthquake, Hidden Power, Toxic, Stealth Rock, Bullet Punch, Force Palm, Poison Fang, Gunk Shot, Will-o-Wisp, Defog, Morning Sun, Taunt, Circle Throw, Storm Throw, Mach Punch, Overheat, Fire Blast, Incinerate, Solar beam, Hidden Power Ice, Acid Spray, Fire Spin, Sand Tomb, At least one of Celebration, Hold Hands, Happy Hour
The following list of moves are disallowed and will not be available for use in the movepool stages.
Flame Charge, Bonemerang, Physical Bug-type moves, Physical Rock-type moves BP of 75 or greater (factoring Technician if applicable), Accelerock, Smack Down, Extreme Speed, Sucker Punch, Ice Shard, Shadow Sneak, Gastro Acid, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Agility, Rock Polish, Physical Grass-type coverage at or above 90 BP (factoring Technician if applicable), Bullet Seed
On approved and disallowed moves: I've only listed moves that have come up over the course of discussion.I'll explain how we handle unlisted moves promptly in the movepool thread.
Now all that's left to do is wait for our TL reachzero to submit his final judgement on the result of this thread.
