I don't believe employing Earth Power on support Arceus-Fairy is the best argument to use when it already fails to punish other problematic defensive Steel-types like Ferrothorn and Celesteela. Opting for Earth Power means Arceus-Fairy will forgo Stealth Rock, which will no longer allow it to compress multiple roles, or Toxic, which means Arceus-Fairy has no way to punish Ho-Oh whatsoever and will not last other Defog Arceus formes which will likely carry Toxic. Trading 2/3 of Primal Groudon / Necrozma-DM's health over losing Arceus-Fairy (which is likely obligated to compress Stealth Rock setter + Yveltal check + Marshadow check) doesn't sound like a good idea to me either. Giving Earth Power to Arceus-Fairy doesn't give it a reason to justify staying in the matchup it will lose against. I assume you wanted to object my nomination as you have quoted my entire post, but I don't think Earth Power solely covers numerous downsides Arceus-Fairy has in the metagame and significantly improves its position other than making it less vulnerable to a few of its checks in exchange of completely worsening other relevant matchups.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Resource USM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Nayrz
- Start date
- Status
I
No offence but I disagree. All D-Rank pokemon can be at the very least semi-useful with the right set. I could say run a Kasib Berry NecroDW with 252SpD
252Spatk and 4spd and use it to limited success. The point of being in D-tier is because if one has to build an entire team around a pokemon to make the mon viable or if its hopelessly outclassed by something else. Groudon fits both. Common Mons Like Pogre, Marshadow, Yveltal Xerneas can all check it.
Marshadow 252 atk life orb close combat vs Groudon 0 def Guaranteed 2HKO
Besides primal groudon invalidates any 'niche' it might have had. There are far superior users of Dragonium-Z, Groundium-z ets than groudon
and Primal Groudan can do everything groudon could and more. Groudon needs to set-up in order to KO, Pdon just comes in and you are guaranteed to get a KO. Groudon is basically never used(pun intended) in ubers and i think its good where it is.
EDIT- Superior users of dragonium and groundium z- Nagadanel, Zygarde, Groundceus, Rayquaza
ALL of these get STAB with Z-moves and have superior stats coverage etc
GZ Zygarde is a bit of a niche set but I have seen it used before successfully
Groundceus
Nagadanel can easily use Dragonium Z to pick up quick KO's so that beast boost activates and offset it's somewhat lacking stats
Rayquaza like naganadel Ko opponents after one Dragon Dance boost
Groudon is not as bad as other Mons in D. BUT since the forme that outclasses it is so prevalent in the metagame there is no real reason to use it
apart from experimenting. Specs Kyogre is not D as it can do something its Primal forme cannot. Groudon requires set up in order to works as you intended and it can easily be OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, Specs Kyogre, Xerneas(After Geomancy), Yveltal, Mega gengar
Marshdow(Marshdium-Z or life orb). The point is that all of these mons are everywhere. Groudon requires set up in order to make the momentum that Primal Groudon can create without any. Groudon lacks the offensive/defensive/Phazing capabilities of its better form and requires heavy team support to use succesfully. Besides ANY pokemon can be used in ubers to great effect. From Cottonee(FEAR) to Cofagrigus one can do heavy damage to teams yet are not in ubers. The reason why is that one needs tons of practice and skill to excel in ubers with these pokemon , they are not one-hit wonders like P-don, NecroDM, and require high amounts of team support and practice to use. In other words you COULD make it work but why would you?In my opinion we should rank pokemon based on actual viability(Offensive/Defensive prowess) not on potential viability because then there wont be any D-rank at all or any tiers for that matter.
No offence but I disagree. All D-Rank pokemon can be at the very least semi-useful with the right set. I could say run a Kasib Berry NecroDW with 252SpD
252Spatk and 4spd and use it to limited success. The point of being in D-tier is because if one has to build an entire team around a pokemon to make the mon viable or if its hopelessly outclassed by something else. Groudon fits both. Common Mons Like Pogre, Marshadow, Yveltal Xerneas can all check it.
Marshadow 252 atk life orb close combat vs Groudon 0 def Guaranteed 2HKO
Besides primal groudon invalidates any 'niche' it might have had. There are far superior users of Dragonium-Z, Groundium-z ets than groudon
and Primal Groudan can do everything groudon could and more. Groudon needs to set-up in order to KO, Pdon just comes in and you are guaranteed to get a KO. Groudon is basically never used(pun intended) in ubers and i think its good where it is.
EDIT- Superior users of dragonium and groundium z- Nagadanel, Zygarde, Groundceus, Rayquaza
ALL of these get STAB with Z-moves and have superior stats coverage etc
GZ Zygarde is a bit of a niche set but I have seen it used before successfully
Groundceus
Nagadanel can easily use Dragonium Z to pick up quick KO's so that beast boost activates and offset it's somewhat lacking stats
Rayquaza like naganadel Ko opponents after one Dragon Dance boost
Groudon is not as bad as other Mons in D. BUT since the forme that outclasses it is so prevalent in the metagame there is no real reason to use it
apart from experimenting. Specs Kyogre is not D as it can do something its Primal forme cannot. Groudon requires set up in order to works as you intended and it can easily be OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, Specs Kyogre, Xerneas(After Geomancy), Yveltal, Mega gengar
Marshdow(Marshdium-Z or life orb). The point is that all of these mons are everywhere. Groudon requires set up in order to make the momentum that Primal Groudon can create without any. Groudon lacks the offensive/defensive/Phazing capabilities of its better form and requires heavy team support to use succesfully. Besides ANY pokemon can be used in ubers to great effect. From Cottonee(FEAR) to Cofagrigus one can do heavy damage to teams yet are not in ubers. The reason why is that one needs tons of practice and skill to excel in ubers with these pokemon , they are not one-hit wonders like P-don, NecroDM, and require high amounts of team support and practice to use. In other words you COULD make it work but why would you?In my opinion we should rank pokemon based on actual viability(Offensive/Defensive prowess) not on potential viability because then there wont be any D-rank at all or any tiers for that matter.
Last edited:
I don't agree with that - like you can try and make a team solely around Reshiram for example, it would still be outclassed by Kyu-W (for the most part). That's what differentiates D rank IMO - Stuff like Deo-N, Solgaleo and Psyceus are flat out outclassed no matter how much effort you put into it and stuff like Fightceus is just so plain bad it's unviable. Groudon is neither when you put in the effort to build it and has some rewards for doing so.
Re: Superior users of Dragonium-Z and Groundium-Z - name them. There isn't a single mon commonly in use right now that can boast the kind of set that Groudon can use that doesn't get your momentum sapped by support Groundceus. Even if we take Groundceus out of the picture, Double Dance P-Don can't OHKO Gira-O/Ho-oh/Mence/Zygarde/Yveltal with the one set without sacrificing either coverage or SD.
Re: Superior users of Dragonium-Z and Groundium-Z - name them. There isn't a single mon commonly in use right now that can boast the kind of set that Groudon can use that doesn't get your momentum sapped by support Groundceus. Even if we take Groundceus out of the picture, Double Dance P-Don can't OHKO Gira-O/Ho-oh/Mence/Zygarde/Yveltal with the one set without sacrificing either coverage or SD.
Hello all, I would just like to make a few nominations for the ubers VR:
Ho-oh: A to A+
I honestly think it's easy to discredit this Pokemon due to the fact it has a glaring Stealth Rock weakness, however with sufficient defog support this Pokemon can be very difficult to deal with. In USUM, there have been plenty of new defoggers such as Xerneas, Yveltal and of course Ho-oh itself. With all the new defoggers, it is not too difficult to create a strong defog core to cover Ho-oh's Stealth Rock weakness. Ho-oh's fire/flying type combination is very nice coverage and makes it a threat in the current meta. Ho-oh also has an excellent movepool, with access to strong STAB moves such as Brave Bird and Sacred Fire as well as utility moves such as Toxic and Defog. Earthquake can also be used on banded sets to hit threats such as Tyranitar, Toxapex and Arceus-Rock. I think this Pokemon is reasonably unprepared for and there's not really too many hard checks, barring Zygarde-Complete. Even Giratina can be 3HKO'd by Ho-oh's choice banded brave bird, meaning it cannot simply rest this damage off as Ho-oh will be faster. Ho-oh is almost a staple for Stall, with many stall teams featuring Ho-oh for the amount of threats this Pokemon covers. These could include Choice Specs users such as Lunala or Kyurem White, Yveltal, non thunder geo xern, non rock tomb Marshadow, Dusk Mane, Support Arceus-Formes, Celesteela, Ferrothorn and much more Pokemon. Regenerator is also a fantastic ability to improve the longevity of this Pokemon and help shrug off status like toxic. It also makes switching into leech seed users such as Ferrothorn and Celesteela much easier. This Pokemon can also fit fine on balance as a balance/stall breaker with its banded set, which can really pressure non Zygarde stalls/balances. I think the variety of this Pokemon can be really threatening and make it reasonably unpredictable, as it could be running leftovers, life orb of choice band and may have moves such as Earthquake and defog, or even hidden power ice to hit surprise Zygarde. I just think this Pokemon offers so much support if rocks can be kept off the field and as such I would recommend this Pokemon for A+ rank.
Toxapex: A- to B+
I was honestly very surprised at how high this Pokemon was ranked on the VR considering how little this Pokemon offers outside of simply laying toxic spikes. Don't get me wrong toxic spikes are fantastic, but to make toxapex work on a balance or stall build to utilize these toxic spikes is honestly extremely difficult, and much harder than simply using cloyster toxic spikes offense. This Pokemon can check Marshadow, Calm Mind Arcs, some Ho-oh sets and... that's about it. There are a ton of Pokemon that can use this Pokemon as set up bait and pressure this Pokemon a ton, such as Arceus-Ground, Primal Groudon, Zygarde, Mega Gengar, Primal Kyogre, Dusk Mane, Ultra Necrozma, Lunala, Mewtwo and honestly the list goes on and I don't see why a Pokemon that gets threatened by so many big Pokemon with little reward is worth using and is so high. You could make the same argument for Magearna, but Magearna can play such a vital role in a team, being able to check the aura duo of Xerneas and Yveltal as well as checking some Arceus formes which is simply so important in comparison to what Toxapex does. As such I believe Toxapex should definitely move down a rank as this Pokemon is extremely hard to build around and does not offer enough outside of laying Toxic Spikes.
Shuckle: UR to C
I am completely lost as to why this Pokemon is unranked. Smeargle definitely does not outclass Shuckle. I would agree Smeargle is overall the better web setter, but there are key differences between the web setters that really put them apart and as such Shuckle does deserve its own rank. One reason Shuckle is arguably better is not being shut down by certain taunt users, particularly Mega Gengar. Mega Gengar almost certainly stops Smeargle setting up Sticky Web every time with Substitute and Taunt, as 9/10 Smeargle will use nuzzle and then attempt to use Sticky Web. Once this happens, you are playing 5-6 with Mega Gengar already having a sub up, which really sucks ass and honestly could be game over already in the space of two turns. I understand you don't have to lead Smeargle when you see Mega Gengar, but not getting webs up straight away is not optimum and could be difficult against certain teams to bring Smeargle in. Other taunt users will get nuzzled such as Yveltal and Deoxys, but at least they stopped getting webs up which can still be great for their team despite having a Pokemon paralyzed. A second reason shuckle is better is due to magic coat Pokemon, particularly Deoxys and Arceus-Ground. I understand magic coat is reasonably rare, but it does come up every so often. Magic Coat Stealth Rock Arceus-Ground pretty much straight out beats Smeargle and stops it setting up webs or being paralyzed, with the advantage of being able to lay its own rocks. I get that's a rare scenario, so I understand if you're a bit sceptical on that one. As for Deoxys-Speed, magic coat is definitely a viable option and will be able to bounce back Sticky Web after Smeargle has used nuzzle. Having both Stealth Rocks and Sticky Web up on the field is a significant advantage and all of a sudden you're at a disadvantage as webs will cancel each other out. The major weakness of course of Shuckle is that Dusk Mane can OHKO with its Z move, which is the reason I would say Smeargle is still the better webs setter overall. However, besides Dusk Mane Shuckle will always be able to get sticky web up against pretty much any other Pokemon. Smeargle is all the way at B rank, so I don't think Shuckle at C is all that ludicrous.
e: Agreed with what Serial Ekiller said, but would also like to point out that Shuckle can simultaneously run Stealth Rock and Sticky Web, which Smeargle cannot do due to needing utility moves such as whirlwind and taunt. This can be really useful if you can't fit rocks anywhere else, and as such Shuckle would be the perfect option over Smeargle.
Ho-oh: A to A+
I honestly think it's easy to discredit this Pokemon due to the fact it has a glaring Stealth Rock weakness, however with sufficient defog support this Pokemon can be very difficult to deal with. In USUM, there have been plenty of new defoggers such as Xerneas, Yveltal and of course Ho-oh itself. With all the new defoggers, it is not too difficult to create a strong defog core to cover Ho-oh's Stealth Rock weakness. Ho-oh's fire/flying type combination is very nice coverage and makes it a threat in the current meta. Ho-oh also has an excellent movepool, with access to strong STAB moves such as Brave Bird and Sacred Fire as well as utility moves such as Toxic and Defog. Earthquake can also be used on banded sets to hit threats such as Tyranitar, Toxapex and Arceus-Rock. I think this Pokemon is reasonably unprepared for and there's not really too many hard checks, barring Zygarde-Complete. Even Giratina can be 3HKO'd by Ho-oh's choice banded brave bird, meaning it cannot simply rest this damage off as Ho-oh will be faster. Ho-oh is almost a staple for Stall, with many stall teams featuring Ho-oh for the amount of threats this Pokemon covers. These could include Choice Specs users such as Lunala or Kyurem White, Yveltal, non thunder geo xern, non rock tomb Marshadow, Dusk Mane, Support Arceus-Formes, Celesteela, Ferrothorn and much more Pokemon. Regenerator is also a fantastic ability to improve the longevity of this Pokemon and help shrug off status like toxic. It also makes switching into leech seed users such as Ferrothorn and Celesteela much easier. This Pokemon can also fit fine on balance as a balance/stall breaker with its banded set, which can really pressure non Zygarde stalls/balances. I think the variety of this Pokemon can be really threatening and make it reasonably unpredictable, as it could be running leftovers, life orb of choice band and may have moves such as Earthquake and defog, or even hidden power ice to hit surprise Zygarde. I just think this Pokemon offers so much support if rocks can be kept off the field and as such I would recommend this Pokemon for A+ rank.
Toxapex: A- to B+
I was honestly very surprised at how high this Pokemon was ranked on the VR considering how little this Pokemon offers outside of simply laying toxic spikes. Don't get me wrong toxic spikes are fantastic, but to make toxapex work on a balance or stall build to utilize these toxic spikes is honestly extremely difficult, and much harder than simply using cloyster toxic spikes offense. This Pokemon can check Marshadow, Calm Mind Arcs, some Ho-oh sets and... that's about it. There are a ton of Pokemon that can use this Pokemon as set up bait and pressure this Pokemon a ton, such as Arceus-Ground, Primal Groudon, Zygarde, Mega Gengar, Primal Kyogre, Dusk Mane, Ultra Necrozma, Lunala, Mewtwo and honestly the list goes on and I don't see why a Pokemon that gets threatened by so many big Pokemon with little reward is worth using and is so high. You could make the same argument for Magearna, but Magearna can play such a vital role in a team, being able to check the aura duo of Xerneas and Yveltal as well as checking some Arceus formes which is simply so important in comparison to what Toxapex does. As such I believe Toxapex should definitely move down a rank as this Pokemon is extremely hard to build around and does not offer enough outside of laying Toxic Spikes.
Shuckle: UR to C
I am completely lost as to why this Pokemon is unranked. Smeargle definitely does not outclass Shuckle. I would agree Smeargle is overall the better web setter, but there are key differences between the web setters that really put them apart and as such Shuckle does deserve its own rank. One reason Shuckle is arguably better is not being shut down by certain taunt users, particularly Mega Gengar. Mega Gengar almost certainly stops Smeargle setting up Sticky Web every time with Substitute and Taunt, as 9/10 Smeargle will use nuzzle and then attempt to use Sticky Web. Once this happens, you are playing 5-6 with Mega Gengar already having a sub up, which really sucks ass and honestly could be game over already in the space of two turns. I understand you don't have to lead Smeargle when you see Mega Gengar, but not getting webs up straight away is not optimum and could be difficult against certain teams to bring Smeargle in. Other taunt users will get nuzzled such as Yveltal and Deoxys, but at least they stopped getting webs up which can still be great for their team despite having a Pokemon paralyzed. A second reason shuckle is better is due to magic coat Pokemon, particularly Deoxys and Arceus-Ground. I understand magic coat is reasonably rare, but it does come up every so often. Magic Coat Stealth Rock Arceus-Ground pretty much straight out beats Smeargle and stops it setting up webs or being paralyzed, with the advantage of being able to lay its own rocks. I get that's a rare scenario, so I understand if you're a bit sceptical on that one. As for Deoxys-Speed, magic coat is definitely a viable option and will be able to bounce back Sticky Web after Smeargle has used nuzzle. Having both Stealth Rocks and Sticky Web up on the field is a significant advantage and all of a sudden you're at a disadvantage as webs will cancel each other out. The major weakness of course of Shuckle is that Dusk Mane can OHKO with its Z move, which is the reason I would say Smeargle is still the better webs setter overall. However, besides Dusk Mane Shuckle will always be able to get sticky web up against pretty much any other Pokemon. Smeargle is all the way at B rank, so I don't think Shuckle at C is all that ludicrous.
e: Agreed with what Serial Ekiller said, but would also like to point out that Shuckle can simultaneously run Stealth Rock and Sticky Web, which Smeargle cannot do due to needing utility moves such as whirlwind and taunt. This can be really useful if you can't fit rocks anywhere else, and as such Shuckle would be the perfect option over Smeargle.
Last edited:
Mega Gengar does in fact stop shuckle from setting up webs if paired with a defogger: it taunts twice, chips shuckle to around 10-20%, taunts again, switches to a defogger, which uses defog on the last turn of shuckle being taunted, and now shuckle is practically useless, underspeeding everything and being able to be taken out by any attack. I believe there was a replay of this in action in an old game between Hack and Edgar (edit: here). Shuckle is even weaker than smeargle vs mega Gengar, as smeargle can probably get a nuzzle off and possibly two full paras (unless sub which runs the risk of smeargle just brainlessly clicking webs...). Smeargle isn't too weak to taunters either, cause after the taunt/nuzzle exchange it can switch out with sash intact and threaten to set again. Things that can ohko shuckle (z-dm) are far more common than things that can ohko smeargle (multi-hit). Magic coat is a valid point but I personally don't believe it's enough to rank shuckle in C. (d rank is for stuff banned from ou but unviable here btw)
I'll add my thoughts on hooh and pex soon
and bugceus
I'll add my thoughts on hooh and pex soon
and bugceus
Last edited:
Primal Kyogre A --> A+
Offensive Calm Mind is the set used for this analysis.
Capable of 2HKO on Zygarde-Complete without boosts, possible OHKO with boosts, and guaranteed OHKO on Zygarde before Power Construct takes effect.
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 836-988 (131.4 - 155.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 560-660 (88 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 560-660 (133.3 - 157.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Capable of OHKO on defensive Groudon-Primal, though has to switch in on it or Desolate Land will take priority.
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal in Heavy Rain: 1132-1336 (280.8 - 331.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Can be OHKOed by offensive Stealth Rock Groudon-Primal, though highly unlikely.
236+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 262-309 (75 - 88.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
OHKOed by offensive Swords Dance Groudon-Primal.
+2 160 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 454-535 (130 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
2HKOed by Necrozma-DM without boosts, OHKOed by Necrozma-DM with boosts.
252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 180-213 (51.5 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 358-423 (102.5 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
OHKOes Necrozma-DM, but is threatened by Necrozma-DM with boosts due to Necrozma outspeeding. Having a Substitute can allow Kyogre to get the KO.
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Heavy Rain: 343-405 (102.3 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Kyogre-Primal Speed: Base 90, 31 IVs, 152 EVs, 254 Spe
Necrozma-DM Speed: Base 77, 31 IVs, 252 EVs, 278 Spe
CM Kyogre may struggle against defensive Kyogre, as it needs a +3 SpA boost before it can 2HKO. However, it can still easily get the +3 boost if it's at full health.
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Kyogre-Primal in Heavy Rain: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Kyogre-Primal Scald vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal in Heavy Rain: 72-85 (20.6 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
With a +1 SpA boost, Kyogre-Primal 2HKOes +1 SpD Gothitelle.
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gothitelle in Heavy Rain: 249-294 (72.3 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kyogre-Primal actually is better off using Origin Pulse on Yveltal than using Ice Beam.
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal in Heavy Rain: 559-658 (122.5 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal: 408-480 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
If Kyogre had just a little more speed, this would matter.
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 508-598 (123.6 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Unfortunately (or fortunately), Xerneas does win after Geomancy...
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 352-416 (100.8 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. +2 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 255-301 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
...Unless Kyogre has +3 boosts, which is highly unlikely.
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. +3 32 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 142-168 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. +2 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 424-499 (103.1 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Overall, I think Kyogre-Primal is worthy of getting boosted to A+. It has too many checks to be S rank, but I don't think A does it any justice.
Kyogre is just not in the same rank as all the other A+ mons and requires too much support and set up to justify it in the same boat as the others
It also seems that ur argument is based more around raw showdown usage rather than how ogre pairs up with the current meta which is kinda the point of viability rankings
That might very well be the case but considering how it is so easy to fit in sr on a team (especially with pdon which is almost a must have for teams) I don’t think that argument can hold for giving Shuckle a ranking imo
Last edited by a moderator:
I agree that it is reasonable to give Ho-Oh a chance to be in higher part of VR but I'm not sure if I agree with Toxapex's demotion. I wouldn't really say Toxapex is something you build around - when it comes to questioning viability of a defensive Pokemon I would first avoid about considering about its independent matchup against the metagame because there will always be list of prominent Pokemon that will overpower any defensive Pokemon and the matter will come down to whether it can secure its place in teams easily and thus can contribute to forming a strong defensive core and providing good utility options. In this regard I won't say Cloyster is the Pokemon that should be compared with Toxapex because it is used in more offensive teams where majority of the teammates benefit from Toxic Spikes in offensive standpoint.
As you mentioned while nominating Ho-Oh this Pokemon is absurdly difficult to switch into safely and Toxapex is one of the safer picks if you see Ho-Oh in the field. Teams without it will resort having other important 'mons like Primal Groudon or Giratina-O chipped or their Arceus eating Toxic. Being able to check Marshadow isn't something we don't want to underrate about Toxapex either. Many balance teams I see nowadays rely on offensively checking Marshadow with things like Choice Scarf Xerneas / Yveltal rather than choosing to keep it from wrecking things in a long run - which they can't afford to do without running absurdly fat cores or without running Toxapex. Also I believe Toxapex is one of the most important members of the STAG-immune stall teams as an untrappable answer to Marshadow / Mega Lucario thanks to its option to hold Shed Shell (Tyranitar stall that lacks proper answer to Marshadow without running the likes of Arceus-Fairy or physically defensive Mega Sableye is slowly going down the drain nowadays with Gothitelle's existence and increase in usage of many stallbreakers like Zygarde-C, Swords Dance Primal Groudon, and Lunala, which Tyranitar stall is naturally weak to).
Overall Toxapex's access to Toxic Spikes seem to be very overlooked in the post - other pivots like Magearna generally hand over momentum to other foes while Toxapex can either force in Defog users or have its offensive check come in while settting a layer of Toxic Spikes and likely causing some predictable actions from an opponent if they would avoid their grounded Pokemon from getting poisoned. I am aware that many prominent threats can take advantage of / overpower Toxapex but I believe what it offers for its team and more importantly, being an untrappable switch-in to Marshadow, Mega Lucario, and some Arceus forms are enough to allow Toxapex to outshine majority of its downsides.
Last edited:
Arceus-Poison: C- to C
So i obviously disagree with the recent drop as i believe that Arceus-Poison holds a unique niche that allows it to be considered as the team's Xerneus counter - Holding a very solid speed tier. Base 77 speed is Necrozma-DM's Achilles heel meaning it often runs rock polish instead of recovery on its offensive sets, making it susceptible to chip damage from non-geomancy Xern sets. Arceus-Poison however has a solid enough speed tier so it can run SD + Recover + 2 attacks. Making it simultaneously able to SD and pose a threat to non-Xerneus teams, and use its great bulk to be a defensive check to Xerneus teams. Arc-Poison's speed tier and uncommon typing for the tier also lets it cover a different array of Pokemon in the tier than Necrozma.
First off its main role as a Xerneus hard counter
Next up is its ability to beat some top tier balance staples
And to finish off my explanations of its unique niches, its utility against stall.
Against stall, Arc-Poison is not dead weight. It holds a unique niche in the way that it is a set-up sweeper that is immune to toxic, allowing it to beat and set-up on Chansey and Blissey, after its set-up it is strong enough to 2HKO mega-sab and has the bulk to take a foul play at +2. Arc-Poison also can beat Arc-Fairy, absorbs Toxapex's TSpikes, beats Alolan Muk, and Threatens many mons on stall teams with PJab poisons.
A bit of meta explanation here as well.
Now I'm not sure why Arc-Poison fell in the first place, but i feel it is currently in a good spot for the meta. Arc-Poison partners well with Necro-DM as it can open up Necrozma-DM to run mostly offensive sets without the worry of being weak to Xern. Arc-Poison also just enables Yveltal to do what it wants as Arc-Poison beats every singe fairy in the tier with PJab + EQ. PDon's power is absurd in the tier but PDon's lack of reliable recovery means it can easily be worn down and beat by constant EQs from Arc-Poison. Arc-Poison has the bulk to not be OHKO'ed by almost any mon in the tier and can threaten most of its switch in's with a chance to poison. Psychic terrain isn't as popular as it used to be and even against those teams Arc-Poison can outspeed and OHKO Lele. Along with this the steel/flying types of the tier have been low in usage all about the ladder.
Overall I think Arceus-Poison is a slept on threat that deserves to be C or even at the bottom of C+ due to the unique array of Pokemon it can check, and the fact that it beats what many of the top tier threats need to be beaten in order to function well. It is never an expected Arceus type which allows it to be played in a way that can make your opponent's think they are safe. holds a niche as the teams Xerneus check that is Fast, an SD sweeper, and A bulky Xern check all in one.
So i obviously disagree with the recent drop as i believe that Arceus-Poison holds a unique niche that allows it to be considered as the team's Xerneus counter - Holding a very solid speed tier. Base 77 speed is Necrozma-DM's Achilles heel meaning it often runs rock polish instead of recovery on its offensive sets, making it susceptible to chip damage from non-geomancy Xern sets. Arceus-Poison however has a solid enough speed tier so it can run SD + Recover + 2 attacks. Making it simultaneously able to SD and pose a threat to non-Xerneus teams, and use its great bulk to be a defensive check to Xerneus teams. Arc-Poison's speed tier and uncommon typing for the tier also lets it cover a different array of Pokemon in the tier than Necrozma.
First off its main role as a Xerneus hard counter
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 226-267 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Toxic Plate Arceus-Poison Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 264-312 (67.1 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Simply by getting small chip (as little as a dark pulse from scarfed Yvel + rocks which is close to the freest geomancy you will get in the tier) onto Xerneus, arc-poison can counter geomancy xerneus by taking any hit from any non-psyshock variant (which is non-existent) and killing back, and on the rare chance you don't get enough chip on xern it still has a 30% to finish the job with a poison from PJab, Acid downpour can also be run to guarantee an OHKO.
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 97-115 (25.4 - 30.1%) -- 5.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Xerneas Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Poison: 226-266 (59.3 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 132-156 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Toxic Plate Arceus-Poison Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xerneas: 308-366 (78.3 - 93.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Arc-poison also can counter other variations of Xerneus effectively by taking hits from both scarfed and specs and having a chance to OHKO after one rocks switch in and guaranteed after 2, which is easy to achieve because a locked in Xern will have to switch out after you reveal arc-poison. The plus side of having this as your Arceus form is there is almost no threat of a specs Xern locking itself into psyshock before you get a free switch-in and threaten it out. Arc-poison also gets free set-up against the uncommon defensive Xerneus and takes pitiful damage from moonblast.
0 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 73-87 (19.1 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252 Atk Toxic Plate Arceus-Poison Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Xerneas: 440-522 (96.4 - 114.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Arc-poison also gets free set-up against the uncommon defensive Xerneus and takes pitiful damage from moonblast.
252 Atk Toxic Plate Arceus-Poison Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 264-312 (67.1 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Simply by getting small chip (as little as a dark pulse from scarfed Yvel + rocks which is close to the freest geomancy you will get in the tier) onto Xerneus, arc-poison can counter geomancy xerneus by taking any hit from any non-psyshock variant (which is non-existent) and killing back, and on the rare chance you don't get enough chip on xern it still has a 30% to finish the job with a poison from PJab, Acid downpour can also be run to guarantee an OHKO.
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 97-115 (25.4 - 30.1%) -- 5.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Xerneas Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Poison: 226-266 (59.3 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 132-156 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Toxic Plate Arceus-Poison Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xerneas: 308-366 (78.3 - 93.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Arc-poison also can counter other variations of Xerneus effectively by taking hits from both scarfed and specs and having a chance to OHKO after one rocks switch in and guaranteed after 2, which is easy to achieve because a locked in Xern will have to switch out after you reveal arc-poison. The plus side of having this as your Arceus form is there is almost no threat of a specs Xern locking itself into psyshock before you get a free switch-in and threaten it out. Arc-poison also gets free set-up against the uncommon defensive Xerneus and takes pitiful damage from moonblast.
0 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 73-87 (19.1 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252 Atk Toxic Plate Arceus-Poison Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Xerneas: 440-522 (96.4 - 114.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Arc-poison also gets free set-up against the uncommon defensive Xerneus and takes pitiful damage from moonblast.
Next up is its ability to beat some top tier balance staples
Arceus-Poison can hold its own against other viable threats in the UBERs metagame.
252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Poison: 121-143 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Poison: 182-216 (47.7 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Arceus-Poison Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario-Mega: 228-270 (81.1 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Arc-Poison can easily chew any move Mega-Luc can go for, then outspeed and threaten to do at least 81% to it with earthquake
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 111-132 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 136-162 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Arceus-Poison Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar-Mega: 248-292 (95 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Sub-disable Gengar can beat Arc-poison, however arc-poison can beat any other set
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 64-76 (16.7 - 19.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Arceus-Fairy Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 130-154 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Toxic Plate Arceus-Poison Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Fairy: 240-284 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This should go without saying but any arc-fairy other than CM + Earth Power gets beaten by arc-poison
0 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 75-89 (19.6 - 23.3%) -- 23.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Arceus-Poison Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 364-430 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Arceus-Poison Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 182-216 (50 - 59.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Arc-poison can tank any hit SpD magearna can go for and threaten it with a 2HKO from an unboosted EQ or an OHKO from a boosted EQ.
252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Poison: 121-143 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Poison: 182-216 (47.7 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Arceus-Poison Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario-Mega: 228-270 (81.1 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Arc-Poison can easily chew any move Mega-Luc can go for, then outspeed and threaten to do at least 81% to it with earthquake
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 111-132 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 136-162 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Arceus-Poison Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar-Mega: 248-292 (95 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Sub-disable Gengar can beat Arc-poison, however arc-poison can beat any other set
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 64-76 (16.7 - 19.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Arceus-Fairy Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 130-154 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Toxic Plate Arceus-Poison Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Fairy: 240-284 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This should go without saying but any arc-fairy other than CM + Earth Power gets beaten by arc-poison
0 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Poison: 75-89 (19.6 - 23.3%) -- 23.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Arceus-Poison Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 364-430 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Arceus-Poison Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 182-216 (50 - 59.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Arc-poison can tank any hit SpD magearna can go for and threaten it with a 2HKO from an unboosted EQ or an OHKO from a boosted EQ.
And to finish off my explanations of its unique niches, its utility against stall.
Against stall, Arc-Poison is not dead weight. It holds a unique niche in the way that it is a set-up sweeper that is immune to toxic, allowing it to beat and set-up on Chansey and Blissey, after its set-up it is strong enough to 2HKO mega-sab and has the bulk to take a foul play at +2. Arc-Poison also can beat Arc-Fairy, absorbs Toxapex's TSpikes, beats Alolan Muk, and Threatens many mons on stall teams with PJab poisons.
A bit of meta explanation here as well.
Now I'm not sure why Arc-Poison fell in the first place, but i feel it is currently in a good spot for the meta. Arc-Poison partners well with Necro-DM as it can open up Necrozma-DM to run mostly offensive sets without the worry of being weak to Xern. Arc-Poison also just enables Yveltal to do what it wants as Arc-Poison beats every singe fairy in the tier with PJab + EQ. PDon's power is absurd in the tier but PDon's lack of reliable recovery means it can easily be worn down and beat by constant EQs from Arc-Poison. Arc-Poison has the bulk to not be OHKO'ed by almost any mon in the tier and can threaten most of its switch in's with a chance to poison. Psychic terrain isn't as popular as it used to be and even against those teams Arc-Poison can outspeed and OHKO Lele. Along with this the steel/flying types of the tier have been low in usage all about the ladder.
Overall I think Arceus-Poison is a slept on threat that deserves to be C or even at the bottom of C+ due to the unique array of Pokemon it can check, and the fact that it beats what many of the top tier threats need to be beaten in order to function well. It is never an expected Arceus type which allows it to be played in a way that can make your opponent's think they are safe. holds a niche as the teams Xerneus check that is Fast, an SD sweeper, and A bulky Xern check all in one.
hi! The "August" update was a bit delayed due to the size of the task we decided on and me getting caught up. Due to the ongoing early stages of the major tournaments, big changes to the top ranks would be premature. We therefore decided to tackle the bottom ranks and have ourselves a good time debating the weak mons, as there have been many occasions where we wonder how the rankings of some mons in bottom ranks can sometimes lack sense. This mainly stems from regularly shifting and adding stuff along without much sight of the bigger picture, so this update aimed to look at the bottom ranks in this "big picture" format. That means most nominations that go over these have been addressed in some way. We went over some stuff higher than these ranks as well.
Similarly to the first update of this thread, we went for the "personal vrs and averages" idea. It works well when dealing with varied opinions (and niche mons can get wild) and we believe the end result has a better reflection of the lower ranks than it previously was.
Here's the new sheet. I'd recommend zooming out a bit on tabs 2 and 3 to see things better. The first tab has the averaging stuff where most stuff is explained. The quick version is that the votes from the personal VRs were put together (using the fourth tab's numbers) and then averaged (divide by 6) to make the first tab's average scores. The second and third tabs have all the reasonings for the personal ranks and movements. The last tab can be mostly ignored. Here's the end result, and I also included the old stuff for comparison purposes in the hide tag below it. Any errors found with the sheet can contact me on the forums or discord - just not in this thread.
First, the update list for those above B:
Lunala: A- >> A+ (below Yveltal)
Smeargle: B >> B+ (above Cloyster)
Ultra Necrozma: moves to the top of A
The VR's updates will be put on hold until our major tournaments are finished (Ubers Open and Smogon Snake Draft) so that some of our members can focus on the tournaments and allow everyone to watch the metagame's progression, then see about reflecting any new trends with an update once they conclude. see ya then!
Similarly to the first update of this thread, we went for the "personal vrs and averages" idea. It works well when dealing with varied opinions (and niche mons can get wild) and we believe the end result has a better reflection of the lower ranks than it previously was.
Here's the new sheet. I'd recommend zooming out a bit on tabs 2 and 3 to see things better. The first tab has the averaging stuff where most stuff is explained. The quick version is that the votes from the personal VRs were put together (using the fourth tab's numbers) and then averaged (divide by 6) to make the first tab's average scores. The second and third tabs have all the reasonings for the personal ranks and movements. The last tab can be mostly ignored. Here's the end result, and I also included the old stuff for comparison purposes in the hide tag below it. Any errors found with the sheet can contact me on the forums or discord - just not in this thread.
First, the update list for those above B:
Lunala: A- >> A+ (below Yveltal)
Smeargle: B >> B+ (above Cloyster)
Ultra Necrozma: moves to the top of A
B
Mega Sableye
Deoxys-A
Lugia
Skarmory
Blissey
Naganadel
Celesteela
B-
Ditto
Mega Lucario
Mega Diancie
Tyranitar
Klefki
Palkia
C+
Giratina
Mega Blaziken
Mega Gyarados
Chansey
Deoxys-S
Tapu Lele
Arceus-Grass
Mega Slowbro
Dugtrio
C
Mega Venusaur
Excadrill
Dialga
Dawn Wings Necrozma
Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Poison
Mewtwo
Shaymin-S
Arceus-Ghost
Arceus-Rock
Kyurem-W
Alolan Muk
Aegislash
Wobbuffet
Mega Kangaskhan
Buzzwole
Reshiram
C-
Darkrai
Kyogre
Mega Mewtwo X
Tapu Koko
Zekrom
Arceus-Electric
Pheromosa
Mega Latias
Landorus
Arceus-Steel
Mega Sableye
Deoxys-A
Lugia
Skarmory
Blissey
Naganadel
Celesteela
B-
Ditto
Mega Lucario
Mega Diancie
Tyranitar
Klefki
Palkia
C+
Giratina
Mega Blaziken
Mega Gyarados
Chansey
Deoxys-S
Tapu Lele
Arceus-Grass
Mega Slowbro
Dugtrio
C
Mega Venusaur
Excadrill
Dialga
Dawn Wings Necrozma
Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Poison
Mewtwo
Shaymin-S
Arceus-Ghost
Arceus-Rock
Kyurem-W
Alolan Muk
Aegislash
Wobbuffet
Mega Kangaskhan
Buzzwole
Reshiram
C-
Darkrai
Kyogre
Mega Mewtwo X
Tapu Koko
Zekrom
Arceus-Electric
Pheromosa
Mega Latias
Landorus
Arceus-Steel
(note: I'm showing B+ because some dropped from here to B this update, it is mostly unchanged)
B+
Arceus-Flying
Rayquaza
Mega Scizor
Mega Mewtwo Y
Lugia
Cloyster
Mega Sableye
Deoxys-A
B
Smeargle
Blissey
Mega Lucario
Skarmory
Tyranitar
Giratina
B-
Mega Gyarados
Chansey
Deoxys-S
Celesteela
Excadrill
Ditto
Naganadel
C Rank
C+
Mewtwo
Mega Venusaur
Mega Diancie
Tapu Lele
Mega Tyranitar
Palkia
Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Grass
Mega Blaziken
Dialga
Arceus-Ghost
Dugtrio
Mega Slowbro
Buzzwole
Klefki
C
Shaymin-S
Mega Mewtwo X
Kyogre
Kyurem-W
Landorus
C-
Arceus-Poison
Alolan Muk
Wobbuffet
Arceus-Rock
Tapu Koko
Aegislash
Mega Latias
Zekrom
Darkrai
Dawn Wings Necrozma
Arceus-Electric
Arceus-Steel
B+
Arceus-Flying
Rayquaza
Mega Scizor
Mega Mewtwo Y
Lugia
Cloyster
Mega Sableye
Deoxys-A
B
Smeargle
Blissey
Mega Lucario
Skarmory
Tyranitar
Giratina
B-
Mega Gyarados
Chansey
Deoxys-S
Celesteela
Excadrill
Ditto
Naganadel
C Rank
C+
Mewtwo
Mega Venusaur
Mega Diancie
Tapu Lele
Mega Tyranitar
Palkia
Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Grass
Mega Blaziken
Dialga
Arceus-Ghost
Dugtrio
Mega Slowbro
Buzzwole
Klefki
C
Shaymin-S
Mega Mewtwo X
Kyogre
Kyurem-W
Landorus
C-
Arceus-Poison
Alolan Muk
Wobbuffet
Arceus-Rock
Tapu Koko
Aegislash
Mega Latias
Zekrom
Darkrai
Dawn Wings Necrozma
Arceus-Electric
Arceus-Steel
Ultra Necrozma->Bottom of A+ (Below Lunala)
There are very few pokemon capable of walling Ultra Necrozma. Marshadow's Shadow Sneak fails to OHKO, which also allows it to check it. Another thing greatly benifitting U-Necrozma is the rise of DW Necrzozma on Webs. This gives it the oppurtunity to run the unexpected Moongeist Beam set. Almost all of U-Necrozma's would be checks are destroyed by Special Necrozma.
There are very few pokemon capable of walling Ultra Necrozma. Marshadow's Shadow Sneak fails to OHKO, which also allows it to check it. Another thing greatly benifitting U-Necrozma is the rise of DW Necrzozma on Webs. This gives it the oppurtunity to run the unexpected Moongeist Beam set. Almost all of U-Necrozma's would be checks are destroyed by Special Necrozma.
Last edited:
I think you meant to say "fails to OHKO" because:
252 Atk Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 198-234 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not sure if I should say this here or ask on PS, but why did D-ranks Reshiram, Mega-Kangaskhan, and Pheromosa all rise to c and c- respectively? i'm just wanting to know. especially with Reshiram.
edit: I know that they rose because they are more viable. But I am asking why they are more viable
edit: I know that they rose because they are more viable. But I am asking why they are more viable
Last edited:
They got a bit more viable, simple as that
This is gonna be my very first nomination and a bit controversial since it is gonna be about a Pokemon deemed unviable in Ubers since ORAS which just got into C-Rank.
Nominating Reshiram to C+
Reshiram has one of the best offensive typings of the entire meta in Fire/Dragon and two amazing STAB moves in Blue Flare and Draco Meteor, both of them hit their targets hard. (especially Blue Flare, it can 2HKO most P-Don sets thanks to Desolate Land, despite being a resisted hit) Also, it has less resistances than White Kyurem (3 compared to 5) and, unlike the Ice/Dragon nuke, it can switch into Scarf Xerneas thanks to its neutrality to Fairy and take it down with Blue Flare no matter what. It can also afford to use Roost to consistently outlast attackers that cannot outdamage it directly, like unboosted special Arceus formes. Stone Edge also prevents it from being Ho-Oh bait, which White Kyurem cannot afford to run, because of the importance of its other coverage moves. (if it runs it, it will lose Earth Power or Fusion Flare, leaving it vulnerable to certain Steel-types depending on the move). Sure it faces harsh competition from special P-Don for a team slot, but if you run Reshiram, you can run a different P-Don set, which can be deadly against several teams. (similar to the DPP Salamence/Ray core). It still has many flaws such as not having enough resistanses, being slow and in a crowded speed tier and being weak to Rocks (which is why imo it does not really deserve being in an even bigger rank), but when used correctly, it can wallbreak well, especially against common Steels.
Nominating Reshiram to C+
Reshiram has one of the best offensive typings of the entire meta in Fire/Dragon and two amazing STAB moves in Blue Flare and Draco Meteor, both of them hit their targets hard. (especially Blue Flare, it can 2HKO most P-Don sets thanks to Desolate Land, despite being a resisted hit) Also, it has less resistances than White Kyurem (3 compared to 5) and, unlike the Ice/Dragon nuke, it can switch into Scarf Xerneas thanks to its neutrality to Fairy and take it down with Blue Flare no matter what. It can also afford to use Roost to consistently outlast attackers that cannot outdamage it directly, like unboosted special Arceus formes. Stone Edge also prevents it from being Ho-Oh bait, which White Kyurem cannot afford to run, because of the importance of its other coverage moves. (if it runs it, it will lose Earth Power or Fusion Flare, leaving it vulnerable to certain Steel-types depending on the move). Sure it faces harsh competition from special P-Don for a team slot, but if you run Reshiram, you can run a different P-Don set, which can be deadly against several teams. (similar to the DPP Salamence/Ray core). It still has many flaws such as not having enough resistanses, being slow and in a crowded speed tier and being weak to Rocks (which is why imo it does not really deserve being in an even bigger rank), but when used correctly, it can wallbreak well, especially against common Steels.
Last edited:
I’m not good enough to justifiably explain every reason why I think this is wrong, but for one I can say for sure that there’s no way in hell Reshiram is ever switching in on Scarf Xerneas.
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Reshiram: 195-231 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And in the event that it’s running Timid as opposed to the suggested spread:
252 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Reshiram: 178-210 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even if you’re running HP it still easily gets 2HKO’d after rocks, on top of such a set obviously having even more issues with Speed than Reshiram already has to deal with in the first place.
Reshiram to C+ Agree
I picked up SM Ubers recently and I've been laddering off and on since with Reshiram since I thought it was a cool-looking mon. From what I can see, Reshiram is actually a pretty decent wallbreaker. I tried out a Choice Specs set and the Dragonium Z set you posted, and both were decent in their own way. (You would think that Specs would struggle with being locked into coverage but Specs Blue Flare is so strong that it even tears chunks out of pokemon like Ho-Oh and Zygarde). Anyway, Fire is fairly spammable in this tier, even with the presence of Kyogre-Primal, and almost every fire resist gets murked by Dragon coverage. Some common fire resists like Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh with rocks on the field don't even require prediction. The meta prepares for Primal-Groudon's coverage but doesn't prepare for Reshiram so it's kind of anti-meta that way. What is also cool is Reshiram gets a decent amount of switch-in opportunities. Steel-types are pretty common like Scizor, Dusk-Mane, and Ferrothorn, and even Magearna and Reshiram can take advantage of switching into fire moves on Ho-Oh and defensive Primal Groudon too if you play smart. It also has pretty serious bulk overall so like you said it usually can 1v1 pokemon like Yveltal, Scarf Xerneas, and certain Arceus forms as well.
Of course, Reshiram has some pretty huge flaws. It is kind of slow and weak to Rocks which makes it struggle vs. offense quite a bit. It does have a number of checks and counters, like Chansey, Kyogre, and Water-Arceus, although those can both be trapped pretty easily
Maybe if Hyper Offense was the only viable playstyle in the tier I would think it unviable, but balance and even stall seems to be pretty common as well. Overall, Reshiram's set of resistances and coverage combined make it a decent wallbreaker for the tier. Not incredible, but it can put in a modest amount of work in many games.Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-809249498 (Specs)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-809273002 (Dragonium-Z)
EDIT: Also Tailwind is a good last move on the Dragonium-Z set. That way it can pull its weight for the team when facing offense, rather than just being a sack to get one kill.
I've only used Reshiram once, it did take care of threats like Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, there's lots of threats to it that are superior to it. Most dragons in Ubers (Salamence-Mega, Necrozma-Ultra, etc.) easily outclass it, unfortunately. There are common threats to it like Pdon. Although Reshiram has a good movepool, I'm not sure it will be able to see much usage since it's easily countered.
I wouldn't necessarily say Mega Salamence and Ultra Necrozma outclass Reshiram. Dragon-types you referred as examples take on completely different domain of Pokemon in the tier - Mega Salamence does not do so well against Steel-types, whereas Reshiram checks them. The most important aspect of Reshiram as a Fire-type wallbreaker is that it can actually 2HKO support Arceus formes and force recovery and Roost gives Reshiram easier time switching into Steel-types (particularly Leech Seed users) - this is something Primal Groudon or other Dragon-types struggle to do consistently. It still has major drawbacks, but I don't think it is justifiable to categorize Reshiram in the same category with other Dragon-types. I don't have specific opinion on this Pokemon but I would see if the small niche that Reshiram holds can justify its place in VR, not if it faces competition with similar-looking Pokemon that fulfill different roles.
This is true, and due to the fact that Reshiram is takes neutral damage from Xerneas makes it an even better option for versatility on your teams. Given this, I think Reshiram would be able to go to C+ just because of how good it is against types, like you said, other dragons don't handle well. Even though Xerneas does get Rock Slide, you would typically use a Geomancy set for Xerneas.
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Reshiram: 195-231 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Moonblast does a chunk btw. Plus, Reshiram's weakness to SR's means it can't come in and out from the game without clicking roost very often which can be abused to bring in a counter. But btw, Reshiram's options, like Tailwind can also mean that not only is it able to break of itself, but also is it able to support his team, and doubled speed in Ubers is frickin good, see Webs slowing down opponents for you to abuse your speed, here this is the same thing, but you can also outspeed things that would taunt your setupers like Yveltel which isn't hindered by Webs though. So Tailwind makes it a good partner for setup sweepers like Arceus (Groundium SD or Normal EKiller), Necrozma-Dusk Mane (Swords Dance, Ultra or not)), and mons that have immediate damage output without relying on too much boosts (or even no boosts at all : Eruption PDon, for example). So Reshiram could be used as a Tailwind Support that makes huge threats even more threatening.
Definetly rank this.
Moonblast does a chunk btw. Plus, Reshiram's weakness to SR's means it can't come in and out from the game without clicking roost very often which can be abused to bring in a counter. But btw, Reshiram's options, like Tailwind can also mean that not only is it able to break of itself, but also is it able to support his team, and doubled speed in Ubers is frickin good, see Webs slowing down opponents for you to abuse your speed, here this is the same thing, but you can also outspeed things that would taunt your setupers like Yveltel which isn't hindered by Webs though. So Tailwind makes it a good partner for setup sweepers like Arceus (Groundium SD or Normal EKiller), Necrozma-Dusk Mane (Swords Dance, Ultra or not)), and mons that have immediate damage output without relying on too much boosts (or even no boosts at all : Eruption PDon, for example). So Reshiram could be used as a Tailwind Support that makes huge threats even more threatening.
Definetly rank this.
Goths from a- to somewhere lower
While I’m not sure where goths definitely need to drop. Mostly because of its low usage and the fact that Offense is a lot more common than balance and Goths basically instantly lose to offense. The only things goths can trap are defensive mons which are nowhere near as common as offensive mons
While I’m not sure where goths definitely need to drop. Mostly because of its low usage and the fact that Offense is a lot more common than balance and Goths basically instantly lose to offense. The only things goths can trap are defensive mons which are nowhere near as common as offensive mons
Goth is too matchup dependent, agreed. But Goth can actually trap pretty common balance mons like support arceus forms, etc, but yeah, Goth is actually vulnerable to all kinds of strong offense in the tier, with only a 70/95/110 bulk which is a bit average in the tier. It's way too matchup dependant so Goth, along with its preevolution Gothorita should drop.
With the tournaments wrapped up, the VR is back in action!
First up - our council lineup has some fresh new faces. Zesty43, Mysterious M, and iry have all joined the VR council, so welcome them aboard! Cynara has stepped down from the council, so I'd like to thank them for the work up till now, and The Vision (The Trap God) sadly had to sit this update out. As for the update itself, a lot of nominations were discussed in comparison to the number of mons that actually moved. See it for yourself!
Update List (Sheet):
Mega Gengar: A+ >> S (below Dusk Mane Necrozma)
Ultra Necrozma: A >> A+ (these 3 A+ movements fill out the bottom of A+)
Arceus-Ground: A >> A+
Primal Kyogre: A >> A+
Lunala: A+ >> A (top of A)
Gothitelle / Gothorita: A- >> B (merged, top of B)
Mega Scizor: B+ >> A- (bottom of A-)
Deoxys-A: B >> B+ (above Cloyster)
Mega Mewtwo X: C- >> C+ (above Mega Gyarados)
As for discussion points, I think a decent thing for posters to consider is the distribution in the A+ and A ranks. Is A+ too heavy?
First up - our council lineup has some fresh new faces. Zesty43, Mysterious M, and iry have all joined the VR council, so welcome them aboard! Cynara has stepped down from the council, so I'd like to thank them for the work up till now, and The Vision (The Trap God) sadly had to sit this update out. As for the update itself, a lot of nominations were discussed in comparison to the number of mons that actually moved. See it for yourself!
Update List (Sheet):
Mega Gengar: A+ >> S (below Dusk Mane Necrozma)
Ultra Necrozma: A >> A+ (these 3 A+ movements fill out the bottom of A+)
Arceus-Ground: A >> A+
Primal Kyogre: A >> A+
Lunala: A+ >> A (top of A)
Gothitelle / Gothorita: A- >> B (merged, top of B)
Mega Scizor: B+ >> A- (bottom of A-)
Deoxys-A: B >> B+ (above Cloyster)
Mega Mewtwo X: C- >> C+ (above Mega Gyarados)
As for discussion points, I think a decent thing for posters to consider is the distribution in the A+ and A ranks. Is A+ too heavy?
Well, time for my first post relating to Ubers.
Arceus-Ice: D -> C-/C
OK, I know. Ice is a horrible defensive type. But honestly, I think it makes up for it with it's offensive capability.
Calm Mind allows Iceceus do deal some pretty decent damage, and also take special attacks a bit better. Thunder is used for things like Ho-oh, Toxapex, and Waterceus, while Fire Blast can hit things like, Necrozma-DM, Mega Scizor, and Magearna. The damage is actually pretty good, looking at the calcs.
Now, there are obviously a couple flaws with Iceceus. The biggest being the fact that its vulnerable to every stage hazard, including a Stealth Rock weakness. Also, stall can wall it cold (Blissey can survive a +6 Judgement and has Confide). It also is tricky to get it in, because of the abundance of super effective attacks in the tier. Also, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane is a really big problem for Iceceus, even with Fire Blast. However, if it can get in and get going, then it can potentially be a decent cleaner.
Here's a replay I managed to get. It's not the best, rating just 1271, but I think it shows Iceceus off fairly well.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-826979756
Arceus-Ice: D -> C-/C
OK, I know. Ice is a horrible defensive type. But honestly, I think it makes up for it with it's offensive capability.
Arceus-Ice @ Icicle Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 172 HP / 84 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Judgment
- Thunder / Fire Blast
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 172 HP / 84 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Judgment
- Thunder / Fire Blast
+1 84 SpA Icicle Plate Arceus-Ice Judgment vs. 144 HP / 56 SpD Groudon-Primal: 250-295 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 84 SpA Icicle Plate Arceus-Ice Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar-Mega: 253-298 (96.9 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 84 SpA Icicle Plate Arceus-Ice Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 416-492 (109.1 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 84 SpA Icicle Plate Arceus-Ice Judgment vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Flying: 416-492 (93.9 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+1 84 SpA Arceus-Ice Thunder vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 198-234 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 84 SpA Arceus-Ice Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 220-260 (72.3 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 84 SpA Arceus-Ice Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water: 254-300 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 84 SpA Arceus-Ice Thunder vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 198-234 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 84 SpA Arceus-Ice Fire Blast vs. 172 HP / 8 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 205-243 (54.2 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 84 SpA Arceus-Ice Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 84 SpA Arceus-Ice Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor-Mega: 428-508 (124.4 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 84 SpA Icicle Plate Arceus-Ice Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar-Mega: 253-298 (96.9 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 84 SpA Icicle Plate Arceus-Ice Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 416-492 (109.1 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 84 SpA Icicle Plate Arceus-Ice Judgment vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Flying: 416-492 (93.9 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+1 84 SpA Arceus-Ice Thunder vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 198-234 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 84 SpA Arceus-Ice Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 220-260 (72.3 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 84 SpA Arceus-Ice Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water: 254-300 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 84 SpA Arceus-Ice Thunder vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 198-234 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 84 SpA Arceus-Ice Fire Blast vs. 172 HP / 8 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 205-243 (54.2 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 84 SpA Arceus-Ice Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 84 SpA Arceus-Ice Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor-Mega: 428-508 (124.4 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Here's a replay I managed to get. It's not the best, rating just 1271, but I think it shows Iceceus off fairly well.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-826979756
Last edited:
- Status