Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

[SaveMeJebus]

I don't think they're borderline broken at all, let alone broken. Grassy Terrain also heals the opponent's Pokemon, and Electric Terrain isn't as useful since sleep isn't that popular of a status condition when Toxic is the preferred one. Psychic Terrain's priority negation is a bit annoying, but like you said all of them only last for 5 turns, and Terrain Extender is very niche.

Sorry didn't read this earlier. While it is true that grassy terrain heals both sides, the side that sets up terrain will usually be the one who benefits the most from not only the recovery but the attack boosts as well.

While sleep may not be popular, it does mess up certain strategies like z rain dance rest manaphy (or any rest set for that matter) and z hypnosis users. Also its not like that terrain needed anything else besides the boost in attack which it got. None of them needed anything else outside of the attack boost and the free safeguard fini got.

 

[Siggu]

Terrains are strong, yes, with fine offensive effects (with the exception of Misty, which has none whatsoever) as well some extra nice defenses, but in terms of context they do have some important shortcomings that don't let them become too strong.

In terms of offensive utility, all terrains are rather lacking in viable partners that can take advantage of the damage boost thanks to glaring coverage shortcomings for each type (Grass is resisted by a lot of Pokémon, Psychic tends to be stopped by Steel and Dark, and Electric lacks coverage for resists plus the terrain setter itself having much weaker attacks than the former two terrains). Grassy Terrain has Kartana (Serperior does not fit), Psychic Terrain has Mega Alakazam and Mega Medicham (Hoopa-U, Reuniclus and Mega Slowbro don't fit), Electric Terrain only has non-viable Pokémon (Magnezone does not fit, and the other viable Electrics are Flying-types) and Misty Terrain has no damage boost at all. It should say a lot that when you think of "Terrain abuser" you think of a Pokémon that only uses the terrain for a Seed and cannot take advantage of it otherwise (Hawlucha).

Most terrains are better for the defensive boosts they provide. Grassy Terrain is the one that is unambiguously great, with extra Leftovers-like recovery and a resistance to Earthquake. Psychic Terrain providing immunity to priority is really neat, especially for Mega Alakazam, though it does reduce your own team's options for Speed control. Electric Terrain makes Spore and Sleep Powder (and Rest sets) useless, which is good, even if it does not look as "spectacular" as other terrains. Finally, Misty Terrain gives a resistance against Dragon and a complete immunity against status, which is fantastic on paper, but it leaves Tapu Fini with no multiple-use recovery move so it's difficult to use it in the long run; the defensive benefits it provides are undeniable, anyways.

 

[JackofBrokenHearts]

I agree with some of your critique, but a couple points seem off. Mamoswine is still a solid, albeit uncommon, pick. It's kept up with power creep and has decent utility in rocks and priority. Mega pidgey is not exactly what I'd call 'super strong.' lack of a boosting item, rocks weakness, and frailty all add up to make it a pretty bad pokemon in ou. And lastly, crawdaunt is typically a cleaner and/or breaker, and I don't know how a sash helps here. If you're cleaning it's likely hazards are up, and if you're breaking you'd rather have fire off 1 solid banded/lorbed hit and switch out than try to set up a ddance that leaves you unable to 2HKO mons like tang and bulu.

apologies I meant banded aha not sash

 

[DERPGengar10]

Definitely better than during Zygarde era, but don't think it'll quite rebound to its previous days like BW. Rotom-W had a lot more going for it in earlier metas I feel and was a little less restricted in its moveslots (Defog is hard to sandwich into a set since Rotom-W really wants all four of its moves, and then there's Thunder Wave and / or Will-O-Wisp). I definitely think it's in the upswing and has a lot of great perks (pinch berries are really nice on Rotom-W and the option of Z Crystals is a nice tech every now and then).

I also agree with this, but I simply feel that it might take longer that others might want for rotom-w to really start shining in the meta again. I don't even really remember when it actually started to stop being so popular and useful.

 

[Sickist]

I also agree with this, but I simply feel that it might take longer that others might want for rotom-w to really start shining in the meta again. I don't even really remember when it actually started to stop being so popular and useful.

I'd imagine it started being less popular when people realized Kartana was actually decent. That or when Zygarde came to power.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Terrains are strong, yes, with fine offensive effects (with the exception of Misty) as well some extra nice defenses, but in terms of context they do have some important shortcomings that don't let them become too strong.

In terms of offensive utility, all terrains are rather lacking in viable partners that can take advantage of the damage boost thanks to glaring coverage shortcomings for each type (Grass is resisted by a lot of Pokémon, Psychic tends to be stopped by Steel and Dark, and Electric lacks coverage for resists plus the terrain setter itself having much weaker attacks than the former two terrains). Grassy Terrain has Kartana (Serperior does not fit), Psychic Terrain has Mega Alakazam and Mega Medicham (Reuniclus and Mega Slowbro don't fit), Electric Terrain only has non-viable Pokémon (Magnezone does not fit, and the other viable Electrics are Flying-types) and Misty Terrain has no damage boost at all. It should say a lot that when you think of "Terrain abuser" you think of a Pokémon that only uses the terrain for a Seed and cannot take advantage of it otherwise (Hawlucha).

Most terrains are better for the defensive boosts they provide. Grassy Terrain is the one that is unambiguously great, with extra Leftovers-like recovery and a resistance to Earthquake. Psychic Terrain providing immunity to priority is really neat, especially for Mega Alakazam, though it does reduce your own team's options for Speed control. Electric Terrain makes Spore and Sleep Powder (and Rest sets) useless, which is good, even if it does not look as "spectacular" as other terrains. Finally, Misty Terrain gives a resistance against Dragon and a complete immunity against status, which is fantastic on paper, but it leaves Tapu Fini with no multiple-use recovery move so it's difficult to use it in the long run; the defensive benefits it provides are undeniable, anyways.

I agree with you but the thing is that unlike the current weather setters not named Tyranitar, these pokemon are completely viable without having to provide team support. If Pelipper, Ninetails, Hippowdon and Torcoal all had an ability where weather would only be active as long as they remain on the field, they would all drop so fast whereas I don't see the Tapus falling from OU if that were the case for them although there might be a slight drop in usage and the strats played around them would have to change.

 

[GnuGnu]

I agree with you but the thing is that unlike the current weather setters not named Tyranitar, these pokemon are completely viable without having to provide team support. If Pelipper, Ninetails, Hippowdon and Torcoal all had an ability where weather would only be active as long as they remain on the field, they would all drop so fast whereas I don't see the Tapus falling from OU if that were the case for them although there might be a slight drop in usage and the strats played around them would have to change.

I feel like you're contradicting yourself. Your point is true but it's irrelevant to the actual power of terrain itself. Weather is arguably much more powerful than terrain, to the extent that it gives those aforementioned pokemon a niche. If you take that away, they become unviable, because their viability is so reliant on the power of weather. Whereas yes, the tapu's would still be usable with your change, showing that they are more self sufficient pokemon + showing that terrain is not so overwhelmingly strong that it defines their viability. I fail to see where you two points coincide into a cohesive argument.

None of the Tapus are broken individually, and none of the terrains are broken either. But ofc, they are very strong. If you're trying to prove that terrains are useful and powerful, then I don't think you'll get many people disagreeing with you. But your reasoning for them being "broken" doesn't even match the argument, so you're not really making a compelling case.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I feel like you're contradicting yourself. Your point is true but it's irrelevant to the actual power of terrain itself. Weather is arguably much more powerful than terrain, to the extent that it gives those aforementioned pokemon a niche. If you take that away, they become unviable, because their viability is so reliant on the power of weather. Whereas yes, the tapu's would still be usable with your change, showing that they are more self sufficient pokemon + showing that terrain is not so overwhelmingly strong that it defines their viability. I fail to see where you two points coincide into a cohesive argument.

None of the Tapus are broken individually, and none of the terrains are broken either. But ofc, they are very strong. If you're trying to prove that terrains are useful and powerful, then I don't think you'll get many people disagreeing with you. But your reasoning for them being "broken" doesn't even match the argument, so you're not really making a compelling case.

My point is they would've been fine with just the attack boost and the auto Safeguard Fini got. The additions they got on top of those boosts aren't broken, but I feel that there was no need for them and it does make them really powerful and I feel removing them would do more good than harm. It's like giving Pex an ability similar to Regenerate except it gives the poke it switches into a free leftovers boost. Is it broken? Not really. But there is no point in buffing an already powerful poke

 

[Leo]

I dont understand what the purpose of this whole Terrain discussion is. Are you implying it was poor game design? That’s cool and all but how does that translate into the actual metagame? You need to stop looking at Terrains in a vacuum and look at how powerful their only users are. Are you really gonna say all Tapus are overpowered because Terrains are too good disregarding how they actually perform in the metagame? Regardless this isn’t the thread for neither game design discussion or potential suspect tests so please stop posting unless you have something to say that fits the criteria of this thread

 

[Colonel M]

This theorymonning has gone far enough. I suggest you take this in discussion to a forum that might actually care (but not really).

If this nonsense continues I'm just going to close the thread instead and unlock it when I feel like it. I don't mind the talk about how some Pokemon are stronger / weaker since Zygarde's ban or how some Pokemon are harder to check in the process, but any further discussion on theorymonning (a useless debacle no less), completely uneducated posts (like AV Croaker poster from earlier), or saying something is broken is just going to get their post removed.

It's pretty bad when I even tried to make some decent discussion earlier and it devolved into this.

All I'm saying is there better be some posts that actually contribute to the metagame and its current development from here on out. For fucks sake even talk about trends in SPL at least. Anything but what nonsense I just read.

 

[Astra]

marriland is better than smogon because they utilize the points system
The poor washing machine didn't deserve to be tossed out of discussion. :(

Anyways, we pretty much know a lot about who got buff with Zygarde's banishment, but what about the (incredibly minor) nerfs?

Pretty much every Aurora Veil team almost always required Zygarde due to bolstering it's already good bulk and setup potential. With it gone, though, the "archetype" (pseudo-archetype?) lost practically a staple to its team. Not all hope is lost, though, as Aurora Veil can still utilize other various setup Pokemon like Mega Mawile very well. Dual screens kind of fits in this category too, but Tapu Koko has its differences.

One of Avalugg's main purposes is down the drain, leaving it as a much more niche pick for stall. Ironically, stall got better with Zygarde gone, but I feel like it will be harder to justify Avalugg on stall teams. It still does have its perks such as great physical defense and ability to switch-in to Landorus-T, Gliscor, and the like, but, in my opinion, its negatives still hold it down. Mono-Ice-type is a really bad defensive typing, and weakness to Stealth Rock while being a spinner is quite unpleasant. With Zygarde gone, it'll be hard to fit in stall teams when most physical walls can already take care of what Avalugg's meant to counter.

Hidden Power Ice
A lot of Pokemon ran Hidden Power Ice just to make Zygarde less comfortable on the field. With it gone, it has a use in...hitting Landorus-T and Gliscor. Yeah, the move's nerf isn't really big a all considering it's still really useful for hitting the Pokemon mention. With Zygarde gone, however, it won't feel as pressuring to not include Hidden Power Ice on a moveset. Landorus-T still needs to have it in order to beat other Landorus-T, though, just a small pointer.

Not a surprise all of these nerfs involve Ice, considering Zygarde was 4x weak to it. I also kinda rambled here, so sorry if some points don't make sense.

Anyways, which Pokemon got nerfed with Zygarde's ban? Curious to see what you got.

 

[Sickist]

marriland is better than smogon because they utilize the points system
The poor washing machine didn't deserve to be tossed out of discussion. :(

Anyways, we pretty much know a lot about who got buff with Zygarde's banishment, but what about the (incredibly minor) nerfs?

Pretty much every Aurora Veil team almost always required Zygarde due to bolstering it's already good bulk and setup potential. With it gone, though, the "archetype" (pseudo-archetype?) lost practically a staple to its team. Not all hope is lost, though, as Aurora Veil can still utilize other various setup Pokemon like Mega Mawile very well. Dual screens kind of fits in this category too, but Tapu Koko has its differences.

One of Avalugg's main purposes is down the drain, leaving it as a much more niche pick for stall. Ironically, stall got better with Zygarde gone, but I feel like it will be harder to justify Avalugg on stall teams. It still does have its perks such as great physical defense and ability to switch-in to Landorus-T, Gliscor, and the like, but, in my opinion, its negatives still hold it down. Mono-Ice-type is a really bad defensive typing, and weakness to Stealth Rock while being a spinner is quite unpleasant. With Zygarde gone, it'll be hard to fit in stall teams when most physical walls can already take care of what Avalugg's meant to counter.

Hidden Power Ice
A lot of Pokemon ran Hidden Power Ice just to make Zygarde less comfortable on the field. With it gone, it has a use in...hitting Landorus-T and Gliscor. Yeah, the move's nerf isn't really big a all considering it's still really useful for hitting the Pokemon mention. With Zygarde gone, however, it won't feel as pressuring to not include Hidden Power Ice on a moveset. Landorus-T still needs to have it in order to beat other Landorus-T, though, just a small pointer.

Not a surprise all of these nerfs involve Ice, considering Zygarde was 4x weak to it. I also kinda rambled here, so sorry if some points don't make sense.

Anyways, which Pokemon got nerfed with Zygarde's ban? Curious to see what you got.

I'll answer your nerfing q after mentioning veil a little so here it is:

I do some rating in Trainer's School on PS! pretty much every day. A couple days ago (the 20th or 21st if i remember correctly), someone wanted a veil team rated, so I decided to pop in and see what I could do...basically to sum up the disaster it was...

Imagine sample veil with less Zygarde and more DDance Flygon

So basically I fixed the dudes team and it ended with DDance mtar and some other minor changes, etc.

That being said, I ended up spending a couple hours (no life I know stop msging me on PS saying that im a loser) trying to figure out how to actually build veil and it be decent now that Zygarde has left.

So first off, i'd like to first point out to any newcomers that Veil isnt just alolan ninetails+5 settup mons. It's a more offensively-inclined build with Alolan Ninetails to set Aurora Veil and then your typical full offense team with rapid spin support, etc.

Now that Zygarde is gone, however, we must pose the question of what sweepers can viably work on Veil teams, or will Veil just drop off kinda like webs did? I'll suggest a few here and leave you all to decide if there are more that need to be added or taken away, etc.

Starting off, we have my Gen 1 homeboy Dragonite:

Dragonite @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Fly
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed

This mon might take Zygarde's place somewhat as both act as semi-bulky ddance sweepers (tho zyg could do alot more). Free Dragon Da- I mean Multiscale is pretty nice, allowing it to even run weakness policy effectively. However, this would require more team support, as rocks basically remove Dragonite's bulk with Multiscale.

Next on the list is Normal and Mega Gyarados (only using normal sprite tho)

Gyarados @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Bounce
- Waterfall
- Earthquake

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Substitute / Waterfall

Zygarde leaving opens up a slot for Gyarados considering it's not really prompted to run Ice Fang anymore. Yea, hitting Bulu with Mega might be nice, but at this point, Substitute and Waterfall both provide more usability in general, allowing Gyara to still hit Landorus / Gliscor for good damage, but with STAB and less missing.

Finally, this one is less noticeable than the others, but Azumarill has caught my eye recently.

Azumarill @ Normalium Z / Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off / Superpower / Waterstab

With Zygarde leaving the tier, this has opened up the door for Azu in a small way: not fearing Glare or Toxic from Zygarde. While small in the whole mass of OU that makes this thing less then stellar, not having to worry about stray Toxics and Glares improves this thing on a smaller scale, giving it better chances on a veil team.

That being said, every mon here is not without its downfalls, so please refrain from flaming me to high heaven about these 3 mons. However, discussion about the future of Veil is what this post is intended to encourage, so feel free to discuss Veil.

also appreciate the Crystal sprites they look so bouncy and fun!

 

[Jordy]

Life Orb Clefable

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Fire Blast
- Soft-Boiled

A set I've been playing around with for a bit is Life Orb Clefable, it's, in my opinion, the best set that you can run on Clefable. The main appeal I see to this set is being a wallbreaker that brings some defensive utility, notably being a Dark-type resist. Because of Clefable's improved offensive presence, it can take on Pokemon that will usually look to take advantage of it like Mega Mawile, Celesteela, and Toxapex. It's also notably hard to switch into thanks to Fairy / Electric / Fire being nearly unresisted and its Speed tier, which is just enough to outspeed what it wants to. While most other people that I've seen using Life Orb Clefable tend to use Thunder, I prefer Thunderbolt, which can still overwhelm Toxapex if Stealth Rock is present when it switches in after Toxapex gets its item removed by something that forces it in, like Tornadus-T for example. Thanks to its Dark-type resistance, it's nice to pair it with Ash-Greninja checks that can be overwhelmed by Dark Pulse, like Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and Tangrowth. I think Clefable pairs particularly well with Ferrothorn, because it's capable of forcing damage on Heatran, the Pokemon that Clefable tends to struggle against the most. (Though, it should be noted that Thunderbolt still does a sizable chunk to offensive Heatran) Furthermore, I believe that this set pairs up nicely with Mega Alakazam, because of its tendency to draw in specially defensive Steel-types like Celesteela and Magearna.

If anyone is looking to test this out, here's a team I made with it.

 

[msnt]

Sub/Roost Kyurem

Kyurem @ Metronome
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Roost

As I've not seen him before in this thread, I will talk a bit about Sub/Roost regular Kyurem. He is in my opinion the best toxic spikes abuser with Reuniclus, he is able to beat a lot of popular pokemons like Heatran and also Toxapex thanks to the metronome. He also allows you to have a Tapu Koko check without bringing a grass type. Pressure allows you to pp stall some pokemon that are blocking you like Celesteela and Ferrothorn for example. That's why Kyurem is in my opinion a very good pokemon in the current SMOU metagame.

 

[MetaNite]

On LO Clefable I would run Psychic > Thunderbolt to nail Poisons on the switch, such as Mega-Venu while still being super effective against Toxapex. Could even use Psyshock to do a lot of damage to Volcorona. Clefable is interesting because it has so many attacking options.

 

[DERPGengar10]

Sub/Roost Kyurem

Kyurem @ Metronome
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Roost

As I've not seen him before in this thread, I will talk a bit about Sub/Roost regular Kyurem. He is in my opinion the best toxic spikes abuser with Reuniclus, he is able to beat a lot of popular pokemons like Heatran and also Toxapex thanks to the metronome. He also allows you to have a Tapu Koko check without bringing a grass type. Pressure allows you to pp stall some pokemon that are blocking you like Celesteela and Ferrothorn for example. That's why Kyurem is in my opinion a very good pokemon in the current SMOU metagame.

OK what? I get that sub/roost is a pretty good set and reg kyurem isn't bad, but a couple of the points you brought up didn't make much sense to me. First of all, why would any pokemon with sub/roost use the metronome? I get what you're trying to say, but I think a much better item would be a clinch berry or lefties. Also, kyurem absolutely does not check koko. Maybe that was just a typo, but idk why koko was even brought up. Another thing, with a kyrem on my team, I wouldn't just try and pp stall mon like celesteela and ferro (ferro especially with these moves) and instead would have a check like skar, tran or magearna.

 

[1_TrickPhony]

OK what? I get that sub/roost is a pretty good set and reg kyurem isn't bad, but a couple of the points you brought up didn't make much sense to me. First of all, why would any pokemon with sub/roost use the metronome? I get what you're trying to say, but I think a much better item would be a clinch berry or lefties. Also, kyurem absolutely does not check koko. Maybe that was just a typo, but idk why koko was even brought up. Another thing, with a kyrem on my team, I wouldn't just try and pp stall mon like celesteela and ferro (ferro especially with these moves) and instead would have a check like skar, tran or magearna.

This is literally the quality control set man. Metronome allows you to break a bunch of pokemon you couldn't otherwise beat. While getting passive recovery is nice with subs, if you can't break the pokemon you want to beat (like toxapex who you need earth power + metronome to beat), you kinda lose the long battle.

Kyu checks all non-dazzling gleam kokos. Considering the most common set is defog pivot or electrium-Z, it absolutely checks Koko man. You just gotta scout. Don't be so harsh without fact checking first.

 

[Sayuze]

Alright, with the visionaries in the past couple pages in this thread who clearly understand the metagame very well, I'll try and actually start some relevant discussion lol.

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave / Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled

With Zygarde's ban, I think Clefable does not need to be fully invested in phys def. Instead, it can be helpful to allocate some SpDef EVs and/or a Calm nature to just help Clefable all around. This investment in particular allows it to always take 2 LO KB Ice Beams, 2 Moonblasts from Diancie, 2 Tbolts from Max Spatk Koko (watch out for z-move though), while still maintaining a good amount of physical bulk. You can also survive stuff like Specs Lele Psychic and Unboosted Z-Fleur from magearna, in a pinch if needed.

Point is, with some SpDef investment (but still a good amount of phys investment) you are probably helping clef out more in the long run and just increasing its potential output. Obviously, my spread here is tweakable; this is just an example. I'd like to know people's thoughts, maybe even if clef should be running more SpDef overall.

~Here are some calcs I found interesting

Calcs

• 252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 20+ SpD Clefable: 175-208 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 20+ SpD Clefable: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 20+ SpD Clefable in Electric Terrain: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 20+ SpD Clefable in Psychic Terrain: 322-379 (81.7 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery [in a pinch]
• 252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 20+ SpD Clefable: 309-364 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery [in a pinch]
• 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 236 Def Clefable: 169-199 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

e: u can also run 32 spdef which is huge for living 2 psychics from mzam, s/o's to Jordy

 

[NylaTheWolf]

Is hyper offense no longer too good, now that Zygarde's been banned? I know it's good on ladder, but what about in tournament play?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Volcanion @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 92 Def / 68 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave

I've been using this set recently and it is really great against lead Landorus. With the evs given, It can take even a 252 atk adamant Earthquake, activate iapapa berry and ohko it with Steam Eruption. It can also Revenge Kill Mawile after an sd boost as the evs given outspeed adamant max speed Mawile and can take a +2 Sucker Punch even after taking Stealthrock damage. Weaker Earthquakes from pokes like Mamoswine and Excadrill have an 83% chance of activating Iapapa berry. The speed evs also mean you can outspeed and KO Adamant Azumarill that has set up Belly Drum.

IP edit: cool pic but it took up more than my entire screen so added sprite instead for readability

 

[Sickist]

Moving on, I'd like to know what everyone thinks of Mega Heracross.

I've been seeing this thing a little more recently, and I'm dumbfounded on why that is. I don't particularly see how it benefitted from Zygarde leaving. If someone does, please feel free to elaborate.

 

[Ruft]

Moving on, I'd like to know what everyone thinks of Mega Heracross.

I've been seeing this thing a little more recently, and I'm dumbfounded on why that is. I don't particularly see how it benefitted from Zygarde leaving. If someone does, please feel free to elaborate.

Bulkier meta means more wallbreakers.

 

[Number One]

Question.

How are we evaluating Greninja Ash?

In a vacuum it seems like a balanced mon, but it is quite difficult to play against because you have to guess that it's not reg ninja. This is a similar situation to ZardX/Y but it is a good deal harder to check because of ninja's high speed. Zards can be checked offensively. Greninja (who could be scarfed and has priority) has the coverage to kill most anything before scouting its set. The difference between Zards is they require lots of team support and have a hard time keeping up offensive pressure. Greninja has none of these problems. Ash has some counters such as chansey, fini, pex (can lose to flinch), and checks like ferro, keldeo, rotom, Growth, Bulu, AVMage. But Protean can 1hko or 2hko all of these but chansey.

My main issue is that Gren has to be checked defensively because the scarf set or water shrunken stop offensive answers. But defensively you have to guess the set its running in order to not lose momentum or give it ash. Ash alone also has options like uturn, icebeam and spikes that give switch ins a hard time already. But with the addition of Protean 1hkoing most checks, I'm really having a hard time not focusing on either my or their greninja every battle. Do I need to start running chansey on offensive teams? I'm having a hard time with this mon and often beat people who are running dedicated counters for it because they are easy to exploit.

TLDR:
What are people's thoughts on Gren?
It has very low risk/high reward

Is considering Ash/Protean as separate mons an accurate way of judging the tier? The viability of one is clearly connected the other. More like two different sets then mons. I'd like to hear peoples thoughts on why we are treating these as separate mons when they fill similar roles, share a typing, share checks, and are mostly special attackers. Explain to me why this is more like Zard X/Y and less like Mawile with intimidate or Hypercutter. Not trying to change our tiering just trying to get specific reasoning.

Main point is: How good is AshNinja considering Protean is becoming more common and guessing wrong means you lose?

 

[JuanchoTacorta]

Question.

How are we evaluating Greninja Ash?

In a vacuum it seems like a balanced mon, but it is quite difficult to play against because you have to guess that it's not reg ninja. This is a similar situation to ZardX/Y but it is a good deal harder to check because of ninja's high speed. Zards can be checked offensively. Greninja (who could be scarfed and has priority) has the coverage to kill most anything before scouting its set. The difference between Zards is they require lots of team support and have a hard time keeping up offensive pressure. Greninja has none of these problems. Ash has some counters such as chansey, fini, pex (can lose to flinch), and checks like ferro, keldeo, rotom, Growth, Bulu, AVMage. But Protean can 1hko or 2hko all of these but chansey.

My main issue is that Gren has to be checked defensively because the scarf set or water shrunken stop offensive answers. But defensively you have to guess the set its running in order to not lose momentum or give it ash. Ash alone also has options like uturn, icebeam and spikes that give switch ins a hard time already. But with the addition of Protean 1hkoing most checks, I'm really having a hard time not focusing on either my or their greninja every battle. Do I need to start running chansey on offensive teams? I'm having a hard time with this mon and often beat people who are running dedicated counters for it because they are easy to exploit.

TLDR:
What are people's thoughts on Gren?
It has very low risk/high reward

Is considering Ash/Protean as separate mons an accurate way of judging the tier? The viability of one is clearly connected the other. More like two different sets then mons. I'd like to hear peoples thoughts on why we are treating these as separate mons when they fill similar roles, share a typing, share checks, and are mostly special attackers. Explain to me why this is more like Zard X/Y and less like Mawile with intimidate or Hypercutter. Not trying to change our tiering just trying to get specific reasoning.

Main point is: How good is AshNinja considering Protean is becoming more common and guessing wrong means you lose?

Team preview.

If you see a team that get's 6-0d by M-Zam or Specs Koko it's Scarf Protean. If the other 5 mons get hardwalled by Toxapex you know for a fact is Dig Groundioum Gren. In simple terms you analyse and deconstruct the team to ascertain which of the Gren would help its team more (Or you could just switch in Ferro and hope it's not HP Fire).

Similarly in Gen 6 you would know if a Zard is X or Y depending on if it's paired with a pursuit trapper (Y) or not (X)

 

[Number One]

A) Who is going to have their only answer to pex be ZDig?...

B) They use the same attacking types/spectrum. Zard was either a special or physical attacker making team preview actually useful. Maybe you have more psychic abilities than I do but most of the time there is no way to tell.

C) "Hope it's not HP fire" is exactly my point. HP fire is common on Protean