Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

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Jordy

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C) "Hope it's not HP fire" is exactly my point. HP fire is common on Protean and can also be viable on ash
Ash-Greninja is locked to Hidden Power Ghost, so this is simply false.

As to how I've been experiencing Ash-Greninja, I think it's fine. It's much easier to prepare for when building now that Zygarde is gone, because not only are teams less pressed to run Zygarde answers, Ash-Greninja also lost its best teammate. In regards to what Greninja set it is, Pokemon like Toxapex and Ferrothorn are, generally speaking, a pretty safe option to scout what Greninja set it is. (obviously you will need other checks, because Protean Greninja can just pick its checks and counters, these are just good blanket checks)
 
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Colonel M

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A) Who is going to have their only answer to pex be ZDig?...

B) They use the same attacking types/spectrum. Zard was either a special or physical attacker making team preview actually useful. Maybe you have more psychic abilities than I do but most of the time there is no way to tell.

C) "Hope it's not HP fire" is exactly my point. HP fire is common on Protean and can also be viable on ash
It's impossible on Ash Greninja and has been since its inception. The only legal HP is Ghost on Ash Greninja.

Please do not spread false information like this for future reference. It looks really bad with your argument because a lot of questions arise such as player competency. Not railing against you personally, just saying make sure to do the research first before making a bold statement like that.

Edit: Fuck Jordy I'm keeping my post up.
 
C) "Hope it's not HP fire" is exactly my point. HP fire is common on Protean and can also be viable on ash
Ash-Gren always has IVs of 20/31/20/31/20/31 (I think those are the exact IVs?) in the main games but you can Bottle Cap its defenses. Stuff is only legal in Smogon tiers if it can legally run those options in the main games, which is why you couldn't have Defog+Poison Heal Gliscor or Defog Tornadus-T for so long. If Ash-Gren could learn HP Fire it would probably be a lot more threatening, but it literally cannot legally run anything but HP Ghost (I think that's what it was? It was some redundant shit) and you literally cannot "optimize" it to have 0 Attack IVs because the only thing you can customize about Ash-Greninja is its Nature (and tbh you're always running Timid).

Moreover, even if you could run HP Fire you'd still be giving up Spikes or Ice Beam, and Spikes is a huge, huge loss.
 
HP fire ash is not a thing. I thought I had seen it (it was three words of my second post). Not very relevant tbh because Ice beam or uturn is better anyway.

Jordy makes good points. But also admits that dealing with Ninja requires scouting which puts the opposing player at a disadvantage. Does anyone see that as low risk high reward? If you're predicting a uturn and switch in pex the ninja player is at an advantage because they know what set they have and can surprise. The defensive player has to make safer plays. Its easier to predict a scout than it is to scout because of the imbalance of information. I can see what your check is while you have no idea if its Ash, or scarf or HP fire or ZDig. Thats why lure sets can be so effective.

Another thing I think is important is asking the question why it's tiered as a separate mon. I understand the Mega's are and probably should be. I also understand its not a situation like Speedboost Blaze where banning the ability would impact other mons. But just in terms of a viability standpoint I don't see how you can separate the viability of one from the other. I feel like we are treating two different sets like two different mons and its making the pokemon itself (Geninja) seem less powerful than it actually is.

To make this clear: I am in no way arguing for a Greninja suspect. But I think classifying ash and Protean separately makes it hard to evaluate Greninja as a whole and how good it's best set is (Ash). When discussing stuff like heatran we acknowledge that is has a lot of options it can run to bypass its counters. I don't see why the versatility of Ash/Protean should not be considered the same way and I feel that treating it as separate mons and not separate sets undermines that.
 
Ash and Protean should be considered differently. Ash runs 1 to 2 main sets if we're counting Waterium. It doesn't even really run U-turn anymore, as Spikes are just so much better. Meanwhile, Protean has tons of sets. However, as JuanchoTacorta mentioned, It can be pretty easy to figure it out. However, it could still have stray options like extrasensory or grass knot. The 2 may be the same pokemon, but they should be evaluated differently due to doing different things.
 
Ash and Protean should be considered differently. Ash runs 1 to 2 main sets if we're counting Waterium. It doesn't even really run U-turn anymore, as Spikes are just so much better. Meanwhile, Protean has tons of sets. However, as JuanchoTacorta mentioned, It can be pretty easy to figure it out. However, it could still have stray options like extrasensory or grass knot. The 2 may be the same pokemon, but they should be evaluated differently due to doing different things.
Um, spikes just arent so much better. U-turn and Medi is good when u have another spike setter on the same team. Obviously its less prevelant than spikes but in my honest (humble) opinion, I think u-turn > spikes because, when u're using a ashgren, wtf is even ur plan? Thats right, it's to keep things going quickly (esskeetit).

When you actually calc things out, spikes only really help when u're going against, lets say an Excadrill (someone u can kill easy with water move). Not really good at all in my opinion. Not to mention, if you're running Specs Ash Gren in 2019, you're wayyyyyy behind.
 

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Um, spikes just arent so much better. U-turn and Medi is good when u have another spike setter on the same team. Obviously its less prevelant than spikes but in my honest (humble) opinion, I think u-turn > spikes because, when u're using a ashgren, wtf is even ur plan? Thats right, it's to keep things going quickly (esskeetit).

When you actually calc things out, spikes only really help when u're going against, lets say an Excadrill (someone u can kill easy with water move). Not really good at all in my opinion.
The reason Spikes are great on Ash Ninja is because it does a great job of forcing a lot of threats out due to the opponent not wanting to activate Battle Bond. It's really really easy to set up a layer of Spikes so long as the opponent switches out and sure you can U-turn into medicham or mawile or whatever, but for Ash Ninja breaking stuff like Toxapex, Ferrothorn and Tapu Bulu, Spikes go a long way and can turn what started as a 3HKO closer to a 2HKO. There's a ton of grounded mons like Toxapex and Magearna, and then there's a decent amount of flying mons, a lot of which don't like taking a Dark Pulse nor a Hydro Pump barring Hydreigon. U-turn is nice to get Mawile and Medicham in, but it's not outright better than the utility Spikes provides, assuming you don't have another Spike user on the team. The plan is to get hazards up, slowly weaken/chip threats over time until they are in KO range and then clean up when they get weak. I can find a replay later if you'd like, but it's 2019 and everyone knows what Ash-Greninja does by now.

Not to mention, if you're running Specs Ash Gren in 2019, you're wayyyyyy behind.
:pikuh:
 
Its been 2019 for like 30 days so relax with that.

I like uturn because

A) Chipping switch ins is very important to turn 3hkos into 2hkos

B) Uturn is safe. If you want to preserve your ash grens health, Uturn is a middle ground between going for the ko and predicting a switch. This is important because it has a good defensive typing and checks lots of threats at full health

C) Uturn is amazing to threaten a KO. If you stay in and I kill with uturn I can transform and not lock myself into a move. If you switch out; I get free dmg on a high hp mon and momentum.
 
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One offensive core that seems really good in this meta and features some top tier offensive threats is Mega Zam + Specs Ash Gen (w/ spikes) + SG Magearna. My only issue is that while this is a very potent core in most matchups, when building a full team around this core, I'm having trouble accounting for stall, and Chansey in particular.

I feel like with this archetype, the rest of the team has to be some kind of defensive core to help pivot around, which doesn't address the team's Chansey problem in most cases. In high ladder, Chansey is on over 10% of teams, so this is an issue. The team still needs a water resist, a ground immune, and likely a defensive steel (something like scarf Lando + AV Tang + spdef Tran). My only ideas so far for dealing with Chansey are putting magma storm + taunt on spdef rocks lefties tran (which can deal with Chansey but not stall as a whole) or using a defensive core that can switch indefinitely back and forth around Chansey (something like Pex + Gliscor/Clef).

Spikes + Zam/Ash Gren/SG Mag is insane, so I'd like to hear if anyone else has any ideas about optimizing a team around this core (especially in a way that deals with Chansey).
 

Colonel M

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If you're very invested into running all 3 of those, this is a rare moment where Knock Off Mega Zam is useful. Since you're relying a lot on special sweepers and Spikes, Mega Zam lures Chansey most of the time and removal of Eviolite makes it a bit easier to apply pressure. Adding Spikes into the mix makes things a bit more uncomfortable for Chansey too. A couple small things are you'll also remove Leftovers from Celesteela since it's a common switch-in. Removal of Tangrowth AV and Magearma AV is nice as well. The bigger issue is on top of running a move that's not really the greatest option for Mega Zam, you forfeit Shadow Ball (because dropping Focus Blast is even worse) and you'll probably still want Recover.

Me, personally, I would stick to maybe only two out of the three if you're going for a more defensive backbone. That being said it's your team and your choice on how you want it structured.
 
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Team preview.

If you see a team that get's 6-0d by M-Zam or Specs Koko it's Scarf Protean. If the other 5 mons get hardwalled by Toxapex you know for a fact is Dig Groundioum Gren. In simple terms you analyse and deconstruct the team to ascertain which of the Gren would help its team more (Or you could just switch in Ferro and hope it's not HP Fire).

Similarly in Gen 6 you would know if a Zard is X or Y depending on if it's paired with a pursuit trapper (Y) or not (X)
If the team was made by a person who has a good idea of what the current meta is, not every mon on their team is going to get walled by pex. Anyway, where did you even get Zdig from? Also, we're talking about the CURRENT META so almost every gren that's protean is gonna have HP fire on it.
 
If the team was made by a person who has a good idea of what the current meta is, not every mon on their team is going to get walled by pex. Anyway, where did you even get Zdig from? Also, we're talking about the CURRENT META so almost every gren that's protean is gonna have HP fire on it.
Z dig and Z fight are alot more current then HP fire being mandatory. If anything is mandatory, it's Gunk Shot. Most sets will carry Hp Fire, but it's not required or lacking in hitting much as without Gunk Shot.
 
One offensive core that seems really good in this meta and features some top tier offensive threats is Mega Zam + Specs Ash Gen (w/ spikes) + SG Magearna. My only issue is that while this is a very potent core in most matchups, when building a full team around this core, I'm having trouble accounting for stall, and Chansey in particular.

I feel like with this archetype, the rest of the team has to be some kind of defensive core to help pivot around, which doesn't address the team's Chansey problem in most cases. In high ladder, Chansey is on over 10% of teams, so this is an issue. The team still needs a water resist, a ground immune, and likely a defensive steel (something like scarf Lando + AV Tang + spdef Tran). My only ideas so far for dealing with Chansey are putting magma storm + taunt on spdef rocks lefties tran (which can deal with Chansey but not stall as a whole) or using a defensive core that can switch indefinitely back and forth around Chansey (something like Pex + Gliscor/Clef).

Spikes + Zam/Ash Gren/SG Mag is insane, so I'd like to hear if anyone else has any ideas about optimizing a team around this core (especially in a way that deals with Chansey).
I don't use it a lot, but Excadrill (please give me a way to abbreviate excadrill) is actually not a bad stallbreaker given the right set. SR, Toxic, rapid spin and a choice of stab has worked for me in the past when dealing with walls (chansey specifically) and EQ hit pex hard. I know it isn't the most popular, but it helps a lot and is a good hazard setter and stallbreaker for me. (Srry that it doesn't help with the criteria you wanted like ground and water resistant)
 
I would say gunk shot is less needed than HP fire. That's because the only thing that you can only hit with shot is fini. Tang, Bulu fear ice beam. I would say it's only necessary on the scarf set for needed 1hkos on Koko, Lele, and serp. HP fire takes advantage of the fact that SE HP is stronger than neutral Hydro pump. This is great for Cele, Mage, Maw, Rachi in addition to 1hkoing Ferro and scizor. Gunk Shot is really only useful for being like "Surprise, i'm Protean!". But as a standalone coverage move, it's not the most useful.

Zdig is good for pex and more importantly AVMage. Extrasensory could be run for pex but it is not very useful outside of that (Venu is meh, Amoonguss is hit harder by ice beam, Keldeo can be 2hkoed by other things).

On the Zam+Mage+AshG team
I would suggest going full hyper offensive. Knock off Zam is a good idea because you don't really need recover. Ferro can be your only defensive mon and an additional hazard setter as well. It also makes life suck for chansey depending on the set. With Zam you could consider adding scarfed or even Life orb Lele. LO Lele is a big threat to stall with PsyShock and scarf Lele is a better offensive poke than ScarfLando. Downside is Ash's water shrunken but you can still hit flying mons and you can plan out when you set up terrain.

Ferro+LO Lele+Scarf Lando
or
Ferro+Scarf Lele+Gliscor(Taunt?)
 
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THE DEFINITIVE OMARI P VR OU USM SPECIAL

Hey! So a lot of people have been asking for a while now: "if I ran the VR what would it look like?" and with the blessing of our lord and saviour (other than i) sir Finchinator himself, here are my rankings for the current meta! If you have questions please let me know, I changed like a shit ton of things and if you want explanations Ill be up. I also added some mons and even made a D tier (mainly for current mons). and make sure to take your time viewing. Let me know your thoughts!

Rank:

S Rank: (definitely needs a suspect)
Greninja-Ash
Magearna

Greninja

A Rank:

A+ Rank


Mawile (Mega)
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Tapu Bulu
Toxapex

A Rank

Garchomp

Latias (Mega)

Heatran


A- Rank
Celesteela
Alakazam (Mega)
Hawlucha
Chansey

Ferrothorn

B Rank:

B+ Rank

Tornadus-T
Volcarona
Charizard (Mega X)
Charizard (Mega Y)
Landorus-T* (ask me )

Tyranitar


Hoopa-U
Medicham (Mega)
Latios (Mega)

Victini

Pinsir (Mega)
Mew

Thundurus-T
Mandibuzz
Swampert (Mega)
Tapu Fini
Magnezone

B Rank
Alomomola
Kyurem-B
Comfey

Snorlax
Scizor (Mega)
Heracross (Mega)
Pelipper
Torkoal
Gengar

Kingdra
Mamoswine
Hoopa

Weavile
Celebi
Venusaur (in sun)

Porygon-Z
Venusaur (Mega)
Nidoking

B- Rank
Espeon
Porygon2
Tyranitar (Mega)
Scolipede
Gyarados (Mega)
Zapdos
Haxorus

Nidoqueen

Lopunny (Mega)
Roserade
Blissey
Latios
Excadrill
Zeraora

Jirachi
Keldeo
Manaphy
Shaymin

Staraptor

Dragonite
Diancie (Mega)
Meloetta

Serperior
C Rank:

C+ Rank

Kartana
Minior
Rotom-W
Vaporeon
Pidgeot-Mega
Reuniclus
Emboar

Araquanid
Empoleon

Suicune

Bisharp
Empoleon

Latias
Aerodactyl (Mega)

Terrakion
Thundurus
Volcanion
Avalugg
Tangrowth
Necrozma
mega gardevoir

C Rank


Alakazam
1547060584387.png
Metagross
Hydreigon
Slowbro
Slowbro (Mega)

Hippowdon
Azumarill
Goodra
Buzzwole
Crawdaunt
Ditto
Gallade (Mega)
Kyurem
Manectric (Mega)
Sableye (Mega)

Clefable

Muk-Alola

Ninetales-Alola

Gliscor
Skarmory
Miltank

Gyarados

C- Rank
Mantine

Poliwrath
Raichu-Alola
Galvantula
Cresselia
Blacephalon
Shiftry

Garchomp (Mega)
Golem-Alola
Aggron (Mega)
Kommo-o
Marowak-Alola

Shuckle
Mimikyu
Klinklang


D Rank
Uxie
Moltres

Camerupt (Mega)

Qwilfish
Gastrodon
Pyukumuku
Quagsire
Druddigon

Ribombee

Wishiwashi
 
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THE DEFINITIVE OMARI P VR OU USM SPECIAL

Hey! So a lot of people have been asking for a while now: "if I ran the VR what would it look like?" and with the blessing of our lord and saviour (other than i) sir Finchinator himself, here are my rankings for the current meta! If you have questions please let me know, I changed like a shit ton of things and if you want explanations Ill be up. I also added some mons and even made a D tier (mainly for current mons). and make sure to take your time viewing. Let me know your thoughts!

Rank:

S Rank: (definitely needs a suspect)
Greninja-Ash
Magearna

Greninja

A Rank:

A+ Rank


Mawile (Mega)
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Tapu Bulu
Toxapex

A Rank

Garchomp

Latias (Mega)

Heatran


A- Rank
Celesteela
Alakazam (Mega)
Hawlucha
Chansey

Ferrothorn

B Rank:

B+ Rank

Tornadus-T
Volcarona
Charizard (Mega X)
Charizard (Mega Y)
Landorus-T* (ask me )

Tyranitar


Hoopa-U
Medicham (Mega)
Latios (Mega)

Victini

Pinsir (Mega)
Mew

Thundurus-T
Mandibuzz
Swampert (Mega)
Tapu Fini
Magnezone

B Rank
Alomomola
Kyurem-B
Comfey

Snorlax
Scizor (Mega)
Heracross (Mega)
Pelipper
Torkoal
Gengar

Kingdra
Mamoswine
Hoopa

Weavile
Celebi
Venusaur (in sun)

Porygon-Z
Venusaur (Mega)
Nidoking

B- Rank
Espeon
Porygon2
Tyranitar (Mega)
Scolipede
Gyarados (Mega)
Zapdos
Haxorus

Nidoqueen

Lopunny (Mega)
Roserade
Blissey
Latios
Excadrill
Zeraora

Jirachi
Keldeo
Manaphy
Shaymin

Staraptor

Dragonite
Diancie (Mega)
Meloetta

Serperior
C Rank:

C+ Rank

Kartana
Minior
Rotom-W
Vaporeon
Pidgeot-Mega
Reuniclus
Emboar

Araquanid
Empoleon

Suicune

Bisharp
Empoleon

Latias
Aerodactyl (Mega)

Terrakion
Thundurus
Volcanion
Avalugg
Tangrowth
Necrozma

C Rank


Alakazam
1547060584387.png
Metagross
Hydreigon
Slowbro
Slowbro (Mega)

Hippowdon
Azumarill
Goodra
Buzzwole
Crawdaunt
Ditto
Gallade (Mega)
Kyurem
Manectric (Mega)
mega gardevoir
Sableye (Mega)

Clefable

Muk-Alola

Ninetales-Alola

Gliscor
Skarmory
Miltank

Gyarados

C- Rank
Mantine

Poliwrath
Raichu-Alola
Galvantula
Cresselia
Blacephalon
Shiftry

Garchomp (Mega)
Golem-Alola
Aggron (Mega)
Kommo-o
Marowak-Alola

Shuckle
Mimikyu
Klinklang


D Rank
Uxie
Moltres

Camerupt (Mega)

Qwilfish
Gastrodon
Pyukumuku
Quagsire
Druddigon

Ribombee

Wishiwashi
well theres cerainly some questionable things here in my eyes(mostly being kart but i know ur hate boner for it is as bad as mine 4 weavile so ill let that slide) so im going to inquire abt a few mons and placements. 1. why is lando not at least A. 2.what does comfey, and torkoal do really? id imagine torkoals just for sun but thats a middling playstyle and its ranked p high there. otherwise solid considering who did it, both happy and disappointed in seeing poliwrath as i tested it with belly drum myself but it wasnt super hot
 
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well theres cerainly some questionable things here in my eyes(mostly being kart but i know ur hate boner for it is as bad as mine 4 weavile so ill let that slide) so im going to inquire abt a few mons and placements. 1. why is lando not at least A. 2.what does comfey, and torkoal do really? id imagine torkoals just for sun but thats a middling playstyle and its ranked p high there. otherwise solid considering who did it, both happy and disappointed in seeing poliwrath as i tested it with belly drum myself but it wasnt super hot
few things here, 1) just because you lacked success with it (the frog) does not mean it is bad. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 2) comfey runs calm mind and pixie plate with synthesis and draining kiss and wreaks havoc on shit that doesnt have a steel type of an immediate hard hitter. i can run taunt as well and just sweep
3) lando is not amazing it just is versatile and overused. it also makes it's own weaknesses by how absurd its usage is
 
THE DEFINITIVE OMARI P VR OU USM SPECIAL

Hey! So a lot of people have been asking for a while now: "if I ran the VR what would it look like?" and with the blessing of our lord and saviour (other than i) sir Finchinator himself, here are my rankings for the current meta! If you have questions please let me know, I changed like a shit ton of things and if you want explanations Ill be up. I also added some mons and even made a D tier (mainly for current mons). and make sure to take your time viewing. Let me know your thoughts!

Rank:

S Rank: (definitely needs a suspect)
Greninja-Ash
Magearna

Greninja

A Rank:

A+ Rank


Mawile (Mega)
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Tapu Bulu
Toxapex

A Rank

Garchomp

Latias (Mega)

Heatran


A- Rank
Celesteela
Alakazam (Mega)
Hawlucha
Chansey

Ferrothorn

B Rank:

B+ Rank

Tornadus-T
Volcarona
Charizard (Mega X)
Charizard (Mega Y)
Landorus-T* (ask me )

Tyranitar


Hoopa-U
Medicham (Mega)
Latios (Mega)

Victini

Pinsir (Mega)
Mew

Thundurus-T
Mandibuzz
Swampert (Mega)
Tapu Fini
Magnezone

B Rank
Alomomola
Kyurem-B
Comfey

Snorlax
Scizor (Mega)
Heracross (Mega)
Pelipper
Torkoal
Gengar

Kingdra
Mamoswine
Hoopa

Weavile
Celebi
Venusaur (in sun)

Porygon-Z
Venusaur (Mega)
Nidoking

B- Rank
Espeon
Porygon2
Tyranitar (Mega)
Scolipede
Gyarados (Mega)
Zapdos
Haxorus

Nidoqueen

Lopunny (Mega)
Roserade
Blissey
Latios
Excadrill
Zeraora

Jirachi
Keldeo
Manaphy
Shaymin

Staraptor

Dragonite
Diancie (Mega)
Meloetta

Serperior
C Rank:

C+ Rank

Kartana
Minior
Rotom-W
Vaporeon
Pidgeot-Mega
Reuniclus
Emboar

Araquanid
Empoleon

Suicune

Bisharp
Empoleon

Latias
Aerodactyl (Mega)

Terrakion
Thundurus
Volcanion
Avalugg
Tangrowth
Necrozma
mega gardevoir

C Rank


Alakazam
1547060584387.png
Metagross
Hydreigon
Slowbro
Slowbro (Mega)

Hippowdon
Azumarill
Goodra
Buzzwole
Crawdaunt
Ditto
Gallade (Mega)
Kyurem
Manectric (Mega)
Sableye (Mega)

Clefable

Muk-Alola

Ninetales-Alola

Gliscor
Skarmory
Miltank

Gyarados

C- Rank
Mantine

Poliwrath
Raichu-Alola
Galvantula
Cresselia
Blacephalon
Shiftry

Garchomp (Mega)
Golem-Alola
Aggron (Mega)
Kommo-o
Marowak-Alola

Shuckle
Mimikyu
Klinklang


D Rank
Uxie
Moltres

Camerupt (Mega)

Qwilfish
Gastrodon
Pyukumuku
Quagsire
Druddigon

Ribombee

Wishiwashi
:pikuh:
 
If you're very invested into running all 3 of those, this is a rare moment where Knock Off Mega Zam is useful. Since you're relying a lot on special sweepers and Spikes, Mega Zam lures Chansey most of the time and removal of Eviolite makes it a bit easier to apply pressure. Adding Spikes into the mix makes things a bit more uncomfortable for Chansey too. A couple small things are you'll also remove Leftovers from Celesteela since it's a common switch-in. Removal of Tangrowth AV and Magearma AV is nice as well. The bigger issue is on top of running a move that's not really the greatest option for Mega Zam, you forfeit Shadow Ball (because dropping Focus Blast is even worse) and you'll probably still want Recover.

Me, personally, I would stick to maybe only two out of the three if you're going for a more defensive backbone. That being said it's your team and your choice on how you want it structured.
Cool idea with the Knock Off Zam, will give it a shot.

THE DEFINITIVE OMARI P VR OU USM SPECIAL

Hey! So a lot of people have been asking for a while now: "if I ran the VR what would it look like?" and with the blessing of our lord and saviour (other than i) sir Finchinator himself, here are my rankings for the current meta! If you have questions please let me know, I changed like a shit ton of things and if you want explanations Ill be up. I also added some mons and even made a D tier (mainly for current mons). and make sure to take your time viewing. Let me know your thoughts!

Rank:

S Rank: (definitely needs a suspect)
Greninja-Ash
Magearna

Greninja

A Rank:

A+ Rank


Mawile (Mega)
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Tapu Bulu
Toxapex

A Rank

Garchomp

Latias (Mega)

Heatran


A- Rank
Celesteela
Alakazam (Mega)
Hawlucha
Chansey

Ferrothorn

B Rank:

B+ Rank

Tornadus-T
Volcarona
Charizard (Mega X)
Charizard (Mega Y)
Landorus-T* (ask me )

Tyranitar


Hoopa-U
Medicham (Mega)
Latios (Mega)

Victini

Pinsir (Mega)
Mew

Thundurus-T
Mandibuzz
Swampert (Mega)
Tapu Fini
Magnezone

B Rank
Alomomola
Kyurem-B
Comfey

Snorlax
Scizor (Mega)
Heracross (Mega)
Pelipper
Torkoal
Gengar

Kingdra
Mamoswine
Hoopa

Weavile
Celebi
Venusaur (in sun)

Porygon-Z
Venusaur (Mega)
Nidoking

B- Rank
Espeon
Porygon2
Tyranitar (Mega)
Scolipede
Gyarados (Mega)
Zapdos
Haxorus

Nidoqueen

Lopunny (Mega)
Roserade
Blissey
Latios
Excadrill
Zeraora

Jirachi
Keldeo
Manaphy
Shaymin

Staraptor

Dragonite
Diancie (Mega)
Meloetta

Serperior
C Rank:

C+ Rank

Kartana
Minior
Rotom-W
Vaporeon
Pidgeot-Mega
Reuniclus
Emboar

Araquanid
Empoleon

Suicune

Bisharp
Empoleon

Latias
Aerodactyl (Mega)

Terrakion
Thundurus
Volcanion
Avalugg
Tangrowth
Necrozma
mega gardevoir

C Rank


Alakazam
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Metagross
Hydreigon
Slowbro
Slowbro (Mega)

Hippowdon
Azumarill
Goodra
Buzzwole
Crawdaunt
Ditto
Gallade (Mega)
Kyurem
Manectric (Mega)
Sableye (Mega)

Clefable

Muk-Alola

Ninetales-Alola

Gliscor
Skarmory
Miltank

Gyarados

C- Rank
Mantine

Poliwrath
Raichu-Alola
Galvantula
Cresselia
Blacephalon
Shiftry

Garchomp (Mega)
Golem-Alola
Aggron (Mega)
Kommo-o
Marowak-Alola

Shuckle
Mimikyu
Klinklang


D Rank
Uxie
Moltres

Camerupt (Mega)

Qwilfish
Gastrodon
Pyukumuku
Quagsire
Druddigon

Ribombee

Wishiwashi
Why do you have such a big gap between the viability of Bulu and Tang? They both work as great water resists and especially as great pivots into Ash Gren (which even you acknowledge is one of the best mons in the meta currently). Bulu does provide a greater offensive presence and the possibility of offensive sets, but I would argue Tang has its own advantages in that it can check Mag with EQ, check opposing Bulu with Sludge Bomb (as well as provide poison support with that 30% chance), provide Knock Off support, and has regenerator so it doesn't need to run Protect/Synthesis like Bulu. I get that Bulu can catch things off guard with an offensive set, but then it becomes a much shakier check to stuff like Ash Gren and rain.

Also, I disagree with the relatively low placements of Lando-T and Rotom-W. While I get that they're not big sweepers, big breakers (except the rare offensive Z Lando), or walls that can stall things out indefinitely, they still act as great pivots that can come in on big threats and U-Turn/Volt Switch out to get your threats in. They can also both use Defog if needed and can act as great role compression in general. I guess I'm just confused on why you seem to be underrating pivots on your tier list in favour of big breakers/sweepers. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, as I think pivots are invaluable in being able to actually get your big threats in and keep your opponent's team in check defensively.
 
Cool idea with the Knock Off Zam, will give it a shot.



Why do you have such a big gap between the viability of Bulu and Tang? They both work as great water resists and especially as great pivots into Ash Gren (which even you acknowledge is one of the best mons in the meta currently). Bulu does provide a greater offensive presence and the possibility of offensive sets, but I would argue Tang has its own advantages in that it can check Mag with EQ, check opposing Bulu with Sludge Bomb (as well as provide poison support with that 30% chance), provide Knock Off support, and has regenerator so it doesn't need to run Protect/Synthesis like Bulu. I get that Bulu can catch things off guard with an offensive set, but then it becomes a much shakier check to stuff like Ash Gren and rain.

Also, I disagree with the relatively low placements of Lando-T and Rotom-W. While I get that they're not big sweepers, big breakers (except the rare offensive Z Lando), or walls that can stall things out indefinitely, they still act as great pivots that can come in on big threats and U-Turn/Volt Switch out to get your threats in. They can also both use Defog if needed and can act as great role compression in general. I guess I'm just confused on why you seem to be underrating pivots on your tier list in favour of big breakers/sweepers. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, as I think pivots are invaluable in being able to actually get your big threats in and keep your opponent's team in check defensively.
2 reasons, first bulu and tangrowth are very different and bulu is far more versatile while tangrowth (right now) is being used pretty 1 dimensionally. Buu can be dangerous while tang at best is annoying. Bulu imo is broken while Ill never say that about tangrowth. ash gren can actually power through both of them with a few different sets. While it does get EQ, it is very important to note that most magearna sets, and many mons in general actually, will set tf up on tangrowth. It's very passive sets right now do not do it justice (but shoutout to the people that run leaf storm). Bulu doesnt need to run protect nor synthesis to heal up as it has an amazing move pair with it's ability to heal offensively and reliably (something that tang is reliant on switching out to do). In rain bulu is far more reliable and powerful than growth, which is really easily setup on and baited while bulu can almost solo rain after a few mons are dead.

Next, I actually appreciate you noticing that trend. That uturn/volt is highly exploitable and they get worn down extremely easily. matter of fact this works against lando the worst because people refuse to teambuild and make it try to act as glue on their otherwise pretty terrible team. So when it inevitably is taken out, because as you stated, it cannot sustain things, their teams usually fall apart on the spot. I think the role compression works worse for lando than anything. Rotom is just an annoying little mon. It's in an awkward place mainly due to it's non presence. Yes, you have to be aware of it's presence but it's really just a bad pivot that needs some sustainability. Let me know if you agree/disagree or didnt understand anything!
 

Colonel M

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Alright. To hell with Finch. I had enough. I'm all for an occasional shitpost every now and then when it isn't completely asinine, but this is just ridiculous. For now this is staying locked to cool off from this. I will respect the decision and keep the post from being deleted [for now].

And before the usual is bleated out:

No, I don't care about your callout.
No, I don't care to challenge you.
I'm okay with you having different opinions but the logic of said opinions for a lot of Pokemon is :pikuh: .

Feel free to leave your angry reacts too. I laugh at those.
 
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