BH Balanced Hackmons Central Resources

[Champion Leon]

Should Garchomp-Mega also be listed for Skill Link?

it could literally run the same or a similar set as Kyurem-B, while being resistant to Stealth Rocks, and packing more resistances- this alone enables it to run Life Orb over Expert Belt.

They have the exact same Attack stat of 170, and comparable Speed.

Sure, STAB Ice can threaten Dragons and Yveltal more, but STAB Ground can threaten Groudon-P, Steels, more.

On that note, couldn’t Garchomp-Mega pull off Technician as well?

Like Skill Link, it can break Sash and Sub with Dual Chop, and Bonemerang, unlike Adaptability and Skill Link, it can run Ice Shard getting a pseudo STAB to match Kyurem-B in power. Bolt Strike would still enable it to hit Kyogre as well as Ho-Oh, and Yveltal for a 1HKO with Life Orb.

Edit: Also, as E4 Flint mentioned in the past, Marowak-Alolan should be in the Tinted Lens section. It has great coverage in STABS, and unlike Life Orb or Choice items, Thick Club has no drawbacks, and prevents Imposter from being too strong since it’s Attack is otherwise low.

 

[Chessking345]

Role Compendium​

This resource lists some viable users for a specific role. This is not a conclusive list so feel free to suggest add-ons/build from here!

Note: Everything here is ordered by Name, not Viability.

General Roles:
(Offense)
Wallbreakers:

Hide

Adaptability:

Remove Scept, add Ttar, Blaze, and UNecro
Aerilate:

Galvanize:

Normalize:

Is Normalize really a Wallbreaker? IMO remove entirely
Pixilate:

Remove Xern
Refrigerate:

Sheer Force:

Remove KyuW and Scept. Ogre's not very viable SF set is a sweeper, not a wallbreaker, remove.
Steelworker:

Sturdy:

Technician/Skill Link:

Remove KyuB and Phero
Tinted Lens:

Add MMY, MMX, Blaze, UNecro
Tough Claws:

Remove Gigas and Slaking. Add TTar, Blaze, Ray, Kartana

Setup Sweepers:

Hide

APS*:

Contrary:

Remove Resh, Diancie, Xern. Add UNecro
Poison Heal:

Remove Zygod
Simple:

Remove Lunala
Triage:

Remove Marsh, MMX, Pidgeot
Unburden:

Remove Ashninja, Lunala. Add MMX.

(Balance)
Stallbreakers:

Hide

Mold Breaker (Status):

Remove Deo-S
Mold Breaker (Offense):

Remove MMX, Gigas, Slaking. Add Blaze, Chomp.
Parental Bond**:

Perish Trap:

Remove Gar, Lugia

(Defensive)
Defensive Pivots:

Hide

Fur Coat:

Remove Dino, Gyarados, Kyogre, Fini
Magic Bounce:

Remove Aegi
Poison Heal:

Regenerator:

Remove Lugia. Add Cress and NDM.

Setup Checks

Hide

Imposter:

Prankster:

Remove Venu, Dino. Add Giratina, Yveltal, Cress.
Unaware:

Remove Bro, Xern. Add Pogre, Chansey

Specific Roles:

Hide

Gengar-Mega Checks:

Add Chansey, Pogre, Dialga.
Groudon-Primal Checks:

PDon checks Dino not vice versa, remove. Remove Buzzwole, Gyarados, Pogre.
Kyogre-Primal Checks:

Remove Aegi, Dino, Regi, Venu. Add Tina.
Psychic Checks:

Rayquaza-Mega Checks:

Add KyuB, NDM, Diancie.
Zygarde-Complete Checks:

Why do we need a section for this, remove all imo

Imposter-Proof Setup Sweepers:

Hide

{Multitype w/ Spooky Judgment, Poison Heal w/ Status}
Add Soundproof.

{Spooky Judgment, Normalize w/ Ghostium-Z}

{Unburden w/ Belly Drum Sitrus Berry + Fire Attack(s)}

{Simple w/ Spooky Judgment, Unburden w/ Imprison}

{Dry Skin w/ Flame Judgment}

{APS w/ Ghost Multi-Attack, Triage w/ Ghost Multi-Attack}
Remove all 3

{Contrary w/ Scarf, Quick Feet w/ Flame Orb}
Remove Scarf Contrary

{Poison Heal w/ Status}

{Scarf Contrary}
Remove

{Unburden w/ Imprison and White Herb}

{Galvanize w/ Draco Judgment}
Remove

{Poison Heal w/ Status}
Remove
Add PH Ogre, Xern, and maybe stuff idr

Banned:

Hide

Primal Groudon {Pixilate, Galvanize, Refrigerate, Tinted Lens, APS, Kyogre-Primal Checks, Imposter-Proof Sweepers}

Innards Out***:

Psychic Surge: (Banned)

Add Deo-A
Shadow Tag*:(Banned)

Remove the *
Stakeout: (Banned)

Water Bubble: (Banned)

* Anti-Priority Setup: The use of Dazzling/Queenly Majesty/Psychic Surge (before its ban) and setup like Shell Smash
** Must use Mega-Evolution/Primal Reversion
*** Key mons listed, but this was used on anything during time of Ban

And now I would like to propose the subdivision of the C-rank. IMO, the many mons in B- aren't on the same level, and the many mons in C aren't on the same level. Such a subdivision will create a more accurate VR for the lower tiers.

B-

Aerodactyl-Mega Possible C+

Blaziken-Mega Stay B-

Cresselia Stay B-

Ferrothorn Stay B-

Gyarados-Mega Stay B-

Ho-oh Stay B-

Kyurem-W Stay B-

Magearna Possible C+

Sceptile-Mega Stay B-

Zekrom Stay B-

C

Beedrill-Mega C+

Hoopa-Unbound C

Necrozma-Ultra C+

Palkia (Drizzle, Tinted Lens, Swift Swim) C-

Pheromosa C

Sableye-Mega C or C-

Steelix-Mega (Flash Fire, Prankster, Regenerator) C or C-

Swampert-Mega C-

Xurkitree C or C-

 

[Champion Leon]

And now I would like to propose the subdivision of the C-rank. IMO, the many mons in B- aren't on the same level, and the many mons in C aren't on the same level. Such a subdivision will create a more accurate VR for the lower tiers.

I could see Greninja-Ash rise to C- territory, as the only Dark-Type that can outspeed Gengar-Mega, and hit from both sides of the spectrum, it can pull a variety of sets ranging from Tinted Lens to Primordial Sea with Water Spout, etc.

At the very least, everything else in D is pretty niche, and compared to the other sweepers in Triage Heracross, Deoxys-A, and Metagross, whom all seem one dimensional, Ash-Greninja offers more flexibility, and at least has just enough Offenses to justify using without setup, such as a Choice Specs Set, or Sheer Force Set.

I view it as the bottom of C, hence C-, as it offers more than the slower (Marowak-Alolan) and/or weaker offensive (Metagross-Mega) D rank users offer. Dark hits a surprisingly large array of Pokémon super effectively, while it can also take advantage of STAB Power Trip after setting up and hit even neutral targets hard.

 

[cityscapes]

mega sceptile back up to b rank

this mon isn't super viable (needs to be built around, can be difficult to get in, weak to priority) so i think anything higher than b is pushing it. that being said, i think b- is underselling its good traits.

sceptile's niche is as a breaker + sweeper in one with almost no true counters. magma storm + encore can dismantle pretty much everything that tries to switch in. even something like ho oh can lose 1v1 if it doesn't have like glare or something.

i was wondering if this thing was still a threat, so i tried it out and it DID NOT DISAPPOINT

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-866476696https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-867146034
imo this guy belongs next to mega chomp on the vr. chomp has an overall easier to access advantage state and can easily force a kill in certain situations, but scept is harder to force out with fast attackers and can sweep later on. because of this i think they should be in the same rank

 

[Champion Leon]

mega sceptile back up to b rank

this mon isn't super viable (needs to be built around, can be difficult to get in, weak to priority) so i think anything higher than b is pushing it. that being said, i think b- is underselling its good traits.

sceptile's niche is as a breaker + sweeper in one with almost no true counters. magma storm + encore can dismantle pretty much everything that tries to switch in. even something like ho oh can lose 1v1 if it doesn't have like glare or something.

i was wondering if this thing was still a threat, so i tried it out and it DID NOT DISAPPOINT

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-866476696https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-867146034
imo this guy belongs next to mega chomp on the vr. chomp has an overall easier to access advantage state and can easily force a kill in certain situations, but scept is harder to force out with fast attackers and can sweep later on. because of this i think they should be in the same rank

————
What about Necrozma-Ultimate with the same or a similar set?
It sacrifices Speed for stronger defenses and offenses and better coverage.

I sometimes opt for Photon Geyser to bypass Unaware, and hit Shedinja without needing Magma Storm’s shaky Accuracy.

It can just use its other Contrary move(s) for the boost, such as Draco or V-Create- another advantage because it has enough Attack to use it successfully, and can make its Defenses useable.

Keep in mind, against Unaware users that resist Photon Geyser, a strong V-Create (Base Power) can make a big difference.

Speaking of which, having a Psychic, Fighting, and Fire resistance allows it to be a decent check to MMX, scaring it with Draco Meteor.

Niches over Sceptile:

252 Atk Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 367-432 (100.8 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 463-549 (92 - 109.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 SpA Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 546-642 (85.8 - 100.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Encoring their Prankster Destiny Bonds, and KOing without relying on boosts makes this one more useful.

 

[cityscapes]

————
What about Necrozma-Ultimate with the same or a similar set?
It sacrifices Speed for stronger defenses and offenses and better coverage.

I sometimes opt for Photon Geyser to bypass Unaware, and hit Shedinja without needing Magma Storm’s shaky Accuracy.

It can just use its other Contrary move(s) for the boost, such as Draco or V-Create- another advantage because it has enough Attack to use it successfully, and can make its Defenses useable.

Keep in mind, against Unaware users that resist Photon Geyser, a strong V-Create (Base Power) can make a big difference.

Speaking of which, having a Psychic, Fighting, and Fire resistance allows it to be a decent check to MMX, scaring it with Draco Meteor.

Niches over Sceptile:

252 Atk Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 367-432 (100.8 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 463-549 (92 - 109.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 SpA Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 546-642 (85.8 - 100.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Encoring their Prankster Destiny Bonds, and KOing without relying on boosts makes this one more useful.

contrary ultra necrozma is definitely a viable set, don't get me wrong, but i don't think you can compare it to sceptile here. the mons do different things.

sceptile has many niches over ultra necrozma as well. it doesn't get walled by things (draco/vcreate/photon/encore is walled by kyogre, for instance), it has a ton more longevity thanks to having leftovers instead of life orb (this necrozma can typically only come in once), it has higher speed unboosted, it has magma storm's trapping benefit to outright eliminate defensive answers, and it isn't weak to spectral thief. i could go on, but the point is that lo necrozma doesn't just outclass sceptile. the sets are different and they fit on different teams.

 

[Champion Leon]

contrary ultra necrozma is definitely a viable set, don't get me wrong, but i don't think you can compare it to sceptile here. the mons do different things.

sceptile has many niches over ultra necrozma as well. it doesn't get walled by things (draco/vcreate/photon/encore is walled by kyogre, for instance), it has a ton more longevity thanks to having leftovers instead of life orb (this necrozma can typically only come in once), it has higher speed unboosted, it has magma storm's trapping benefit to outright eliminate defensive answers, and it isn't weak to spectral thief. i could go on, but the point is that lo necrozma doesn't just outclass sceptile. the sets are different and they fit on different teams.

Kyogre walls it?
252 SpA Life Orb Contrary Necrozma-Ultra Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 513-606 (126.9 - 150%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns

Unaware:

252 SpA Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So basically a 2HKO, (1st Turn Draco as it comes in, 2nd turn Photon before it can Spectral Thief).

VS Sceptile-Mega
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 236-282 (58.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Both 2HKOs.
——————
Magma Storm can go over V-Create on Necrozma-Ultimate at any time, I simply acknowledged V-Create because it can KO Registeel, and because it can be strong against foes who have less Defense than Special Defense.

Necrozma-Ultimate could also have Leftovers over Life Orb, if needed.

Further, isn’t being weak to Triage Oblivion Wing, and Aerilate a bigger threat than being weak to Spectral Thief?

Giratina is weak to Draco Meteor, which deters it from being able to use it, Spectral Thief typically ends up on Unaware Pokemon which can be handled by Photon Geyser unless a Dark-Type. Kyogre-Primal is proof of that.
———
I agree having a higher Speed unboosted is a plus, but after a V-Create Necrozma can deal with Beedrill-Mega (Speed-tie for Sceptile-Mega), Aerodactyl-Mega, Pheromosa, etc. that Sceptile would have to switch out of.

 

[a loser]

Kyogre walls it?
252 SpA Life Orb Contrary Necrozma-Ultra Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 513-606 (126.9 - 150%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns

Unaware:

252 SpA Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So basically a 2HKO, (1st Turn Draco as it comes in, 2nd turn Photon before it can Spectral Thief).

VS Sceptile-Mega
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 236-282 (58.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Both 2HKOs.
——————
Magma Storm can go over V-Create on Necrozma-Ultimate at any time, I simply acknowledged V-Create because it can KO Registeel, and because it can be strong against foes who have less Defense than Special Defense.

Necrozma-Ultimate could also have Leftovers over Life Orb, if needed.

Further, isn’t being weak to Triage Oblivion Wing, and Aerilate a bigger threat than being weak to Spectral Thief?

Giratina is weak to Draco Meteor, which deters it from being able to use it, Spectral Thief typically ends up on Unaware Pokemon which can be handled by Photon Geyser unless a Dark-Type. Kyogre-Primal is proof of that.
———
I agree having a higher Speed unboosted is a plus, but after a V-Create Necrozma can deal with Beedrill-Mega (Speed-tie for Sceptile-Mega), Aerodactyl-Mega, Pheromosa, etc. that Sceptile would have to switch out of.

Calcs are one thing, but simply being able to pull it off with this move set is another. If you show some replays of Ultra Necrozma doing some of these similar things, I could get behind it.

 

[Champion Leon]

Calcs are one thing, but simply being able to pull it off with this move set is another. If you show some replays of Ultra Necrozma doing some of these similar things, I could get behind it.

I will tomorrow. I was working all week!

My only thing would be having to face someone whom specifically uses an Unaware Kyogre, as most are PHeal.

Want to set a time tomorrow? A Replay is one thing, but finding an opponent whom uses the set you want to see me defeat is another. ;)

 

[tysequaine]

Can y'all stop measuring your dicks, the post was about the viability of Sceptile. The fact that another mon can also do something similar to one of its niches is completely irrelevant

 

[Champion Leon]

Can y'all stop measuring your dicks, the post was about the viability of Sceptile. The fact that another mon can also do something similar to one of its niches is completely irrelevant

I don’t think anyone disagrees that it could move up a rank.
My only point was “can Necrozma-Ultimate work the same or a similar set?”

If so, then it becomes relevant - if one set justifies moving a Pokémon up a rank, then another Pokémon that can successfully use it can also move up.

With the replays it would be evidence. I don’t think I ever said Sceptile-Mega doesn’t deserve to change ranks, just happens that Necrozma-Ultimate has comparable pros/cons, and it could be seen that one set helps both move up.

 

[tysequaine]

You can argue that many mons share "comparable pros/cons" to one another, but using that as a way to piggyback off of someone else's nomination is disingenuous at best and off-topic at worst.

If you want to discuss Necrozma-U moving up a rank, discuss it based on its own merits and viability in the metagame. Don't rank it based on its viability in relation to Sceptile, based on a single ability they can both share.

 

[Champion Leon]

You can argue that many mons share "comparable pros/cons" to one another, but using that as a way to piggyback off of someone else's nomination is disingenuous at best and off-topic at worst.

If you want to discuss Necrozma-U moving up a rank, discuss it based on its own merits and viability in the metagame. Don't rank it based on its viability in relation to Sceptile, based on a single ability they can both share.

That’s not true. Look at Regigigas and Slaking. Exact same set.

Look at Solgaleo and Dusk-Mane, different offense and speed stats but compared for their bulk (RegenVest and Flash Fire sets) even with a shared type in their pros/cons.

It’s not just the ability, it’s the moves, and even items (I said did say Necrozma-Ultimate could run the same Fire Move and Leftovers item).

Am I the only one who has made a comparison during a VR nom? Many people do when ensuring all or the best options are discussed - it’s only natural to compare things that can do the same/similar.

In fact, when I was making a nom in the past people were quick to say “but this or that can do it just as well”. So where were you then?

I didn’t even nom Necrozma-Ultimate to a specific rank. I never said they should fight for the spot he mentioned. I thought; if a set can make Sceptile-Mega simply more useful because it was previously unknown, wouldn’t it make sense to see if it is the only option?

Should someone not think of this Contrary Pokemon Set because Sceptile-Mega was known for doing it first?

If there is a pro or con to something, just like with Regigigas and Slaking using the same set, why is it not permitted here? Some teams need one or the other because of the pros or cons their team can afford to have.

Review the thread history before telling me I shouldn’t when it’s happened pretty much every other time.

P.S. I did state it’s own merits and overall viability in the metagame, I specifically highlighted its Typing difference, stats difference, and it’s options for moveset variation.

I actually agree with his nom, for the record...
————

Completely separate topic. I was testing Dragon-Types with Judgement Draco Plate yesterday and thought it might be good to highlight the 2 options I found for Imposter resists. Now, I am only mentioning ones that can survive an Imposter Judgement, and resist all other coverage moves on their sets:

Sceptile-Mega-

Hide

Since you take less damage from a Tail Glow +3 SpA Imposter than a Shell Smash +2 SpA (while at -1 SpD), Sceptile-Mega can survive an Imposter’s Judgement, and KO it.

The reason I am bringing this up is because the current Setpedia Soundproof set lacks power.

Like my Slaking Set relies on a Z-move to hurt Imposter, a quick predict switch to an Immune Pokemon can mean you cannot hurt your enemy, and now you have to have a teammate Improof to continue. In my Slaking team, having Toxic Spikes serves as an option to stall out Imposter vs my Slaking if I used up my Z-move.

Since I tend to focus on replay ability (rematching an opponent and still winning after they know your team) I thought we could use Adaptability.

+3 252 SpA Draco Plate Adaptability Sceptile-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 832-980 (118.1 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252 SpA Chansey Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Sceptile-Mega: 259-305 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The advantage here is obvious, Imposters are KOed while you are not, you can continue to sweep the foe and since Adaptability boosts Judgement Draco Plate to 240 power, compared to Clanging Scales at 165 you deal more damage overall. Seed Flare is also boosted to 240 power, rather than staying at 180.

Further, if the foe has Soundproof, such as Zygarde-Complete, your Clanging Scales will deal no damage.

Further, if you switch into Entrainment Gengar-Mega, you can still hit it with STAB Judgement.

So by changing just the item, ability, and a single move, it can end up dealing much more damage, to more targets, while being Imposter resistant if kept healthy.

Further, Soundproof only helps against Specs variants, as most Boomburst -ate users are packing a Plate + Extreme Speed, and all 3 are Super Effective vs Sceptile-Mega.

So my view is to consider replacing Soundproof, as you have to basically save your Z-move just for Imposter and hope it doesn’t just switch out to a Fairy or Steel. It would be-

Imposter Resist

Sceptile-Mega @ Draco Plate
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgement
- Seed Flare
- Tail Glow
- Spore / Earth Power

————
Palkia-

Hide

+2 252+ SpA Draco Plate Adaptability Palkia Judgment vs. -1 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 888-1048 (126.1 - 148.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Chansey Judgment vs. -1 252 HP / 252 SpD Palkia: 277-327 (72.1 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Draco Plate Palkia Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dialga: 378-445 (93.5 - 110.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Palkia Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 374-440 (102.7 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Palkia @ Draco Plate
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgement
- Steam Eruption
- Shell Smash
- Blue Flare / Revelation Dance

Revelation Dance is basically if you get Tricked or Knocked Off and need to hit Normalize-Gengar after Entrainment or if you need a more accurate Water STAB.

Blue Flare KOs Unburden Kartana since Draco Judgement’s minimum damage is below 75%, and can threaten CB Steelworker sets, not to mention Magic Bounce Registeel after it has Shell Smashed. It can also secure KOs on Solgaleo that Steam Eruption cannot:

+2 252+ SpA Palkia Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solgaleo: 536-632 (112.1 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Adaptability Palkia Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solgaleo: 454-536 (94.9 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Palkia is a Pokémon people know exists, but rarely emphasize. I think it’s niche is serving as either a Swim Swim Choice Specs Wall Breaker or Adaptability Sweeper with a Plate so it can Imposter resist. I am not sure if it deserves a spot on D, but it’s cool to not rely on Unburden for defeating Imposter.

 

[cityscapes]

yveltal to a-

yveltal really feels like the best dark type in the meta rn by a good amount. completely shutting down all gars is a really nice attribute to have, and the only real revdance resists in the tier are things you can easily prep for like diancie and ph xern. yveltal + hooh is great, yveltal + ff aegi is also pretty decent as long as pblades diancies covered. if you can take care of resists and eventually get them out of the way, revdance is actually a great cleaning option especially if you opt for something like glasses on it or run regenvest with beak blast and stuff. overall a great mon that doesnt give up momentum to that much stuff

mega heracross and fini to c

these feel a bit higher than the rest of d rank atm, heracross has priority at its side and can put in a ton of work if you have a pursuit user for gira. fini is just rly annoying to deal with in general, one of the hardest mons to wear down with fat stuff because of good typing + threat of scald burns.

staka to ur

this pokemon has no niche. sure it hits a little bit harder than kartana with gyro, but in return shed and imposter can switch into it almost for free, forcing it to run both sunsteel (double stab :cwl:) and a coverage move like cc/pblades, and then it has to choose between options like uturn bullet punch bolt strike etc for last slot. another huge issue with this mon is the fact that it always moves second, so it can really struggle to come in vs stuff like ogre, ph xern, and even audinos with wisp/knock/spore because they can just cripple it. defensive sets are outclassed by bastiodon/probo because staka has 0 spdef. overall this mon is just really bad and almost never worth using at all.

reshiram to d

reshirams good. stabs that hit a lot of the meta super effectively, ability to go mixed allowing it to hit fc chans with vcreate and regenvest ogre with wood hammer (both are ohkod at +2), bulk to take priority if it hasnt been chipped, which isnt too hard if you set it up on steels. a lot of good players have used this mon and i think it deserves to be ranked.

mega gardevoir to d

this mon has several neat sets that, when all factored in, make this mon deserving of d rank imo. contrary has the useful niche of being able to ohko all giras after rocks with lo while still achieving most of the same kills as mmy's psycho boost, ph has the ability to break regenvest ogre with psystrike while also having a core immunity and being able to cheese physical attackers with wisp, specs pixilate hits a bit harder than diancie while retaining that ability to bop regenvest ogre and above average speed tier. a lot of teams can take advantage of these cool niches that garde brings to the table so i think it should be ranked.

 

[a loser]

ability to go mixed allowing it to hit fc chans with vcreate and regenvest ogre with wood hammer (both are ohkod at +2)

What is this Reshiram set? Are you talking like Mold Breaker for the Chansey KO and Magic Guard for the Kyogre KO? Just asking since the abilities weren't clear in the post and this calc shows Reshiram needs to ignore FC to get the OHKO.

+2 252 Atk Reshiram V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 367-433 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I like the Yveltal rise. I think its various sets can pretty easily find a spot in most teams, especially with the high usage of mons like Giratina and Gengar.

I think Mega Gardevoir is underrated too but I've only used the PH set so far. It is nice to pressure fat Dragons and other non Steel-type walls while nailing Kyogre too. I've seen successful Specs sets ran before too, like Pixilate or Tinted Lens, and I think they definitely carve a niche to not be totally outclassed by MMY and Mega Diancie.

I can't speak much for Hera or Fini but I should try them out sometime. The only Heracross set I've tried so far is Scrappy lol but I'm a big fan of First Impression.

Also, RIP Stakataka but remember it can always get around going last with the Prankster Copycat set. If it uses Substitute too then Imposter isn't a free switch either.

 

[Champion Leon]

What is this Reshiram set? Are you talking like Mold Breaker for the Chansey KO and Magic Guard for the Kyogre KO? Just asking since the abilities weren't clear in the post and this calc shows Reshiram needs to ignore FC to get the OHKO.

+2 252 Atk Reshiram V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 367-433 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I like the Yveltal rise. I think its various sets can pretty easily find a spot in most teams, especially with the high usage of mons like Giratina and Gengar.

I think Mega Gardevoir is underrated too but I've only used the PH set so far. It is nice to pressure fat Dragons and other non Steel-type walls while nailing Kyogre too. I've seen successful Specs sets ran before too, like Pixilate or Tinted Lens, and I think they definitely carve a niche to not be totally outclassed by MMY and Mega Diancie.

I can't speak much for Hera or Fini but I should try them out sometime. The only Heracross set I've tried so far is Scrappy lol but I'm a big fan of First Impression.

Also, RIP Stakataka but remember it can always get around going last with the Prankster Copycat set. If it uses Substitute too then Imposter isn't a free switch either.

Couldn’t Gardevoir do a Simple, then Mega Shell Smash Set?

I say this bc Giratina doesn’t pack DBond and is KOed by Boomburst, and Zygarde takes a heavy hit, as their Prankster Haze attempts to stop it.

252+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 504-594 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Prankster Haze Tina is always Relaxed, so it won’t survive, ever.

As for Zygarde-Complete:
*Nuetral nature without hazards:

252+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 588-692 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

*Positive nature with Spikes:

252+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 536-632 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
*****
Keep in mind, this is without boosts, so the Unaware variants take just as much.
———
So 2/3 main Prankster Hazers are unable to survive (Zygarde at least is not guaranteed to), and that leaves just Registeel, whom is afraid of Gardevoir using a Filler move.

So here are some Unaware Calcs:

+4 252+ SpA Gardevoir-Mega Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 331-390 (81.9 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+4 252+ SpA Gardevoir-Mega Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Kyogre-Primal: 286-337 (70.7 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
——-
VS Fur Coat Eviolite Chansey

+4 252+ SpA Gardevoir-Mega Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 850-1002 (120.7 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Boomburst
- Stored Power / Photon Geyser
- Spore / Moongeist Beam

Moongeist Beam pairs with Stored Power, while Spore pairs with Photon Geyser.

The combination of Base form serves as a niche similar to Simple Necrozma - Dusk Mane / Absol, etc., but unlike them, it’s form change Ability is not weak, and it keeps the type throughout.

Base form lands a Shell Smash, while Mega lands a Boomburst. Fairy also covers Dark-Types, while Stored Power covers Soundprooof, as well as 1HKOing Assault Vest Kyogre, Zygarde, etc. (proven thru it KOing Eviolite Chansey).

 

[a loser]

Couldn’t Gardevoir do a Simple, then Mega Shell Smash Set?

Yes, Gardevoir could do a base Simple Smash with a Mega Evolution. However, there is not really a great reason to do this. First off, you’re stuck using base form Gardevoir so the set is predictable from team preview. Second, you are stuck with a Mega Stone as your item instead of something more useful like Specs, Life Orb, Focus Sash, etc. This could potentially come in handy against NormGar by Mega evolving for a new ability, but a good NormGar user will likely go for the OHKO on base Gardevoir rather than using Entrainment. Third, Scarf Imposter still outspeeds you if you Mega evolve in front of them and OHKO you with Stored Power. Basically, Mega Gardevoir is better off running either of the sets SL42 mentioned and the Mega evolving set really has no niche. (But hey, on the Mega evolving set you could run Reversal on the fourth slot because its 200 BP and is 4x self-resisted. Base 85 Attack means you could go mixed!)

Also, you have some big assumptions about Prankster Giratina as one of my better teams has a Sassy Prank Tina with Destiny Bond lol. Destiny Bond isn’t rare on Giratina anyway.

 

[Champion Leon]

.First off, you’re stuck using base form Gardevoir so the set is predictable from team preview.

I used to use a Mawile with a Mega Stone Set and it didn’t have Simple as an ability. Some ideas for other useful abilities include Prankster, Speed Boost, which both can pair well with Spore, by either going first or earning a boost on the Spore, and a boost on the foe’s Switch. This still powers up Gardevoir’s Stored Power while not lowering its Defenses.

Second, you are stuck with a Mega Stone as your item instead of something more useful like Specs, Life Orb, Focus Sash, etc.

This is true for any Transformation set, including Dusk-Mane Transform sets, which loses STAB after it changes form and doesn’t hurt as much with Steel moves.
They also reduce Knock Off Damage, and the effect which would otherwise negate your argument about a better item, and it can prevent Trick.

Specs can be just as limiting as it can be beneficial, Focus Sash is useless if you take any chip damage, and Life Orb is ultimately not more useful if your SpA and Stored Power would be stronger due to Simple, which works due to being able to Transform, hence the Mega Stone’s indirect way of boosting offense pays off. Life Orb recoil, on top of hazard Damage, isn’t too appealing either, as even Diancie-Mega, which doesn’t require any set up on its Pixelate set prefers Pixie Plate even when Life Orb would boost its anti-Steel coverage move of choice.

This could potentially come in handy against NormGar by Mega evolving for a new ability, but a good NormGar user will likely go for the OHKO on base Gardevoir rather than using Entrainment.

Um, this also applies to the Metagross, Necrozma Dusk-Mane, etc. sets since they are also weak to Judgement, and are outsped both before and after the Transformation.
That’s like saying anything slower than Gengar without Judgement Plate, or Revelation Dance shouldn’t be used...

Third, Scarf Imposter still outspeeds you if you Mega evolve in front of them and OHKO you with Stored Power.

I am not surprised a move that is 390 Base power (with STAB), which has the resistance negated by the -2 SpD, and coming off of +4 SpA from 165 Base SpA would be anything less than a 1HKO in Gardevoir.

A more accurate account of “is it worth it?” would be to list the trade offs of Imposterproof sets that lose to Prankster Haze sets, such as Unburden (which can only be used once, as it wears off once it switches out), while Gardevoir can break Zygarde and Giratina with Boomburst without any boosts. Ultimately, nothing is perfect, and having a unique typing, and great STAB options in Base power lets it wreck havoc on 2 of the 3 most defensive of would-be Prankster checks. I say the trade off is worth it, especially if you have a teammate that can trap Imposter, while you cannot trap Prankster Giratina by virtue of its Ghost Typing.

Basically, Mega Gardevoir is better off running either of the sets SL42 mentioned and the Mega evolving set really has no niche.

I don’t want to pick at Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request) in anyway, but I can attest that there are some reasons my set does have a niche. To say it doesn’t have a niche is denying the 390 Base Power (with STAB) Stored Power + Pixelate Boomburst 252 (after STAB) Base Power combination. I’m sorry but it’s it not something you can achieve in 1 turn of set-up, with any other Pokémon due to the unique typing, and ability combination.
Further, Fairy covers Dark, and Dragon-Types very well, while Psychic covers neutral targets even better due to Base power.

I think the advantage or niche that Gardevoir has is that it can become fast and sweep, while the Contrary sets are typically reserved for sweepers already fast, and Gardevoir-Mega can be picked off by faster threats because of it. Plus, Pixelate doesn’t require SR to KO Giratina.

I will say a niche his sets have would be not caring about Soundproof, but Stored Power oftentimes compensates for that.

I think PHeal can work due to being Imposterproof, and it has workable Special bulk, and having W-o-W can be a great way of dealing with Slower physical offense. In regards to Psystrike, I could easily slash that as an option for Gardevoir over Stored Power or Photon Geyser, but ultimately you can argue Fur Coat Kyogre can better handle PH Gardevoir. Plus I think a +4 SpA will allow Photon or Stored Power to deal major damage to Kyogre, as it does 1HKO RegenVest sets.

Specs has a huge niche in immediate power, and frees up a moveslot without worrying about setting up or using Spore, but like Contrary sets, Speed can be a factor.

Also, you have some big assumptions about Prankster Giratina as one of my better teams has a Sassy Prank Tina with Destiny Bond lol. Destiny Bond isn’t rare on Giratina anyway.

I was just basing the set that Chessking345 and Anaconja typically insist on as the standard Giratina set for Prankster, as they emphasize it doesn’t run Destiny Bond and runs: Haze, Strength Sap, Milk Drink, and Core Enforcer.
Which is not what I would have thought either, as I previously thought Defensive Prankster sets were known for running Destiny Bond.
Nevertheless, they would both tell me: just because you use a set that way doesn’t mean its how it’s meant to be used.
Even when my team specifically benefits from the non-Setpedia Set.
So I guess that applies to you, for having “one of your better teams” use Destiny Bond on your Prankster Giratina. Again, I don’t fault you for using it, but it’s interesting since it was their idea and they reacted to your post in what can be assumed as “agreement”.

 

[Chessking345]

I just feel like I have to address this point right now.
Forme Change Sweepers through Mega Evolution are extremely predictable, unreliable, niche, fragile, and prone to revenge-killing, and should not be used unless the purpose is to attempt to cheese, for which, using a viable Pokemon and running a wack set is better.
"Extremely predictable": Just about any good player, once they see a base forme Pokemon, should immediately suppose that it is Simple Smash or some other setup before Mega Evolution. This means that said player would click Spectral Thief against this mon whenever possible or use U-turn to bring in an attacker to force it out.
"Unreliable": Choice Scarf Imposter is capable of revenge-killing nearly every such mon even when transformed into the base forme. Other Imposter can simply bait out the Mega and switch back in to revenge-kill. Basically every Priority can revenge kill these mons, ranging from -ates to First Impression to Sucker Punch, provided that they aren't resisted. Furthermore, most Prankster without a type disadvantage, as well as a couple of Unaware mons, can easily stop these sets.
"Niche": If you want to use a setup sweeper, use a legitimate one, like Smash Gar or MMX or MMY. They are a lot less predictable, and more difficult to revenge-kill.
"Fragile": The base forme mons typically have 0 bulk, combined with no recovery means they will take massive damage from just about any move and will require extremely careful play to get it in and setup safely, this combined with the predictability makes it very difficult to setup.
"Prone to revenge-killing": After the defense drop, basically all unresisted priority can revenge kill, especially when combined with chip damage it has taken during setup.

"Isn't Necrozma-DM also a forme change sweeper?": Smash NDM still isn't a good set, but it has many advantages over these Mega sets. First of all, it has excellent base stats, which allows it to take hits much better in base forme, and be more threatening, opening up setup opportunities. Second, it has a good defensive typing in base forme, which allows it to remain in base forme to avoid being revenge-killed by -ates, and gives it better setup opportunities. Thirdly, it has a million other sets, such as Belly Drum, Flash Fire, and RegenVest, which makes it much less predictable, and can open up way for an unexpected Smash, it can also bluff the other sets to force switches, again opening up setup opportunities. Also, its solid bulk and typing gives it defensive capabilities, which allows it to be able to emergency check some mons. Finally, its item slot isn't useless like a Mega Stone, since it offers a 200 BP Z-Move which is ridiculously powerful.
"It can beat Imposter": If you use a breaking set, say Specs Gardevoir, you already do a million to Imposter and discourage it from switching in. Or you can use something like PH and be self improof. If you want a setup improof, you could use MGar, Unburden, or use a Sash and pray.
"It has effectively two abilities": Typically your pre-mega is going to be Simple and your post-mega doesn't matter too much because you could've just set that as your ability. Simple is cool at all but its pretty cheese, defensive ability sounds good but you have no bulk pre-mega anyways.
"It can beat Normalize Gengar": One time thing that can be easily played around, and many pre-mega die to MGar anyways. Use a better answer on your team.

As to DBond not being used:
| Destiny Bond 18.701% |

Also need to mention that citing Setpedia isn't very helpful for an argument when that thing compiles basically every usable set and can have sub-optimal movesets.

VR Noms/Discussion Points:
Xerneas to A, sleep clause definitely hurts the Lovely Kiss set's viability but Taunt is still a fine option. Unsure of whether it should drop.
Arceus to B or lower, the bug has sadly been fixed and this thing just lost its best Soundproof set and other sets are much less improof.
Cresselia to B, Cresselia IMO is comparable to Bro, it lacks some physical bulk and a nice Water typing but makes up for it with its massive special bulk.
Ho-Oh to B, Ho-Oh has seen a lot of use and success in tournaments and ladder and with Sleep Clause it can elect to run some other item on the MG set. Other sets like MB have started to pop up as well and it is definitely a very solid pick rn.

 

[a loser]

That’s like saying anything slower than Gengar without Judgement Plate, or Revelation Dance shouldn’t be used

How was I saying that? I mean its a good idea not to send something to face Gengar that is Normalize fodder or something that gets OHKOed, yeah. And Dusk-Mane, Metagross, and Gardevoir can all be OHKOed.

Anyway, I wasn't saying your set was worthless or anything but it will always be predictable regardless of the pre-Mega ability because no one runs base form Gardevoir. It will eventually evolve and will still be pretty easily walled by Steels and extremely prone to priority attacks. Also, the Stored Power variant is very reliant on boosts to break things like Soundproof, Regenvest Kyogre, and Fur Coat Chansey. Prankster Topsy Turvy is also a thing and Boomburst won’t OHKO anything at -4 without a crit.

Sure, the set has a slight niche if it gets setup successfully and can probably drop at least one mon. But Mega Gardevoir has many more potential abilities it can run to keep it from being so predictable like the base form.

 

[Champion Leon]

I am hiding this reply so it can be put to rest.
Overall, Chessking345 made great points which summarize what you meant to say about the reliance/limits of Transformations sets using Simple.

Hide

How was I saying that? I mean its a good idea not to send something to face Gengar that is Normalize fodder or something that gets OHKOed, yeah. And Dusk-Mane, Metagross, and Gardevoir can all be OHKOed.

I only responded to the Gengar bit because it seemed random for you to bring up. AKA, what relevance does a slower weak to Ghost have regarding Gengar? Of course there is no need to rub in the fact it won’t do well, I would never bring in Gardevoir vs Gengar, although it may lure it in if they switch to it as I Shell Smash. But depending on how “obvious” it will have Simple, is to the Gengar user they will likely not put themselves in that position.

Anyway, I wasn't saying your set was worthless or anything but it will always be predictable regardless of the pre-Mega ability because no one runs base form Gardevoir. It will eventually evolve and will still be pretty easily walled by Steels and extremely prone to priority attacks.

You did say “Basically, Mega Gardevoir is better off running either of the sets SL42 mentioned and the Mega evolving set really has no niche.” No niche means no reason to use this set over anything else, which means it’s not useful... AKA useless.
Walked by Steels? Isn’t the whole point of Shell Smash on Simple to break past resists? Spore can handle Haze sets, while non-Haze sets get 1HKOed.

If you don’t use Spore and use Moongeist, then Assault Vest Solgaleo, Dusk-Mane, as well as Aegislash get 1HKOed:

+4 252+ SpA Gardevoir-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: 444-524 (92.8 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

+4 252+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: 517-610 (127.9 - 150.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+4 252+ SpA Gardevoir-Mega Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 450-529 (123.6 - 145.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Steel will yield.

Also, the Stored Power variant is very reliant on boosts to break things like Soundproof, Regenvest Kyogre, and Fur Coat Chansey. Prankster Topsy Turvy is also a thing and Boomburst won’t OHKO anything at -4 without a crit.

I am not sure what you are saying here. Power Trip sets also rely on boosts, in fact, the reality of a set up Sweeper using boosts to sweep is kind of the point. Boomburst does pretty well, however, without any boosts:
252+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre: 136-162 (33.6 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So Kyogre cannot just switch in... if it does, it take 1/3, is outspeed and takes another 1/3 and since no boosts means no -Defenses, and no boosts to Spectral Thief, Kyogre will not be able to do much. The next turn it has to switch out before it is KOed.

Ultimately, Kyogre has to come in on a slow pivot, use both turns to attack Gardevoir-Mega, and then hope it is not carrying Spore. If it has Spore, it can sleep, boost, and sweep, as RegenVest sets lack Safety Goggles, and miss Poison Heal’s anti-Sleep perks.

Just double the damage for Mega’s Shell Smash. *I am assuming it is already past it’s Mega Evolution Transformation to assume worst case scenario on not being able to use Simple.*

As for a Chansey, if Gardevoir has Spore, since Chansey cannot hold onto Safety Goggles, it can sleep, set up, and Sweep...

+2 252+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 367-433 (52.2 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

For Soundproof, who are you using? If I use Spore on a non-Safety Goggles variant, Stored Power should be just fine as I can use the sleep to set up and sweep.

Please stop pretending I didn’t list Spore as the primary option for the 4th move, your Chansey and Kyogre are outsped and unable to prevent Sleep.

Sure, the set has a slight niche if it gets setup successfully and can probably drop at least one mon. But Mega Gardevoir has many more potential abilities it can run to keep it from being so predictable like the base form.

Um, let’s focus on what stops it- Prankster Haze/Topsy Turvey - which can lack Safety Goggles and can take hefty hits from Boomburst- such as Giratina, Soundproof (if it can take a Boosted Stored Power- which is extremely unlikely), and Unaware (if I am not using Photon Geyser at +4 SpA), and Priority. So far, the only safe way to not get hit by a powerful move, whether it be Boomburst or Stored Power, would be a Priority Attacker. Everything else risks being Spore, Boombursted, or hit by the necessary Psychic move. Your ideas are based off what set? Which Pokémon for Topsy Turvey? I am sure my set has a workaround for most.

 

[a loser]

I am hiding this reply so it can be put to rest

So, what exactly are we putting to rest? If your entire point was that Gardevoir could run Simple Smash with a Mega Evolution then you are exactly right. The great thing about this meta is you can run almost anything you want to.

If your point was to nominate the Simple -> Pixilate set to be D ranked along with other potential Mega Gardevoir sets, then I do not agree and don't believe that set is worth being ranked. You never said you were nomming it, but it wasn't really clear what you were doing otherwise than just suggesting an untested idea of a set.

Registeel / Aegislash @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed / Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Haze / Topsy-Turvy / Encore
- Shore Up
- U-turn / Anchor Shot
- Filler

To answer your question, I think that this sort of set handles the proposed Gardevoir well, assuming it switches in safely. Shedinja also forces it out if you just run the first slashed moves. As far as Spore is concerned, you were quick to remind me on my PH Mega Gardevoir set that there is a sleep clause now, so factor that in too.

Filling the niche of high BP moves like Stored Power and Pixilate Boomburst is neat, sure but ultimately is just not worth the team slot. Consider another niche-filling mon, Alolan Raticate.

Raticate-Alola-Totem @ Focus Sash
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Power Trip
- Flail
- Sunsteel Strike / Photon Geyser / Extreme Speed

No other mon boasts STAB 260 BP Power Trip and STAB 200 BP Flail while being immune to Spectral Thief and Prankster status thanks to Raticate-Alola's unique typing. I’m sorry but it is not something you can achieve in one turn of setup with any other Pokemon due to the unique typing and ability combination.

+4 252+ Atk Raticate-Alola-Totem Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 1190-1404 (236.1 - 278.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 252+ Atk Raticate-Alola-Totem Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 592-697 (93 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (Spikes guarantees)
+4 252+ Atk Raticate-Alola-Totem Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 595-702 (134 - 158.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 252+ Atk Raticate-Alola-Totem Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 621-732 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (Spikes guarantees)
+4 252+ Atk Raticate-Alola-Totem Flail (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino-Mega: 442-522 (107.8 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 252+ Atk Raticate-Alola-Totem Flail (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 538-634 (117.9 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now before anyone starts defending this set, it is obviously not viable in the current meta. Its just an example of filling a niche. Just because it fills the niche does not make it worthy of using. Because ultimately it goes back to this:

extremely predictable, unreliable, niche, fragile, and prone to revenge-killing, and should not be used unless the purpose is to attempt to cheese, for which, using a viable Pokemon and running a wack set is better

Hopefully we can get past this discussion now and talk about other worthy nominations. If you persist with the Simple -> Pixilate set, please consider testing it out to see how well it actually performs before defending it again. A high level replay or two could go a long way. Calculations can make almost anything, like Raticate-Alola, look good.

 

[Rumors]

So, an idle thought. Gen VIII is coming up and I'm thinking maybe restructuring the VR a bit might be a good idea when the new gen comes. Mind, I'm not proposing any changes to the current Gen VII VR, we might as well keep its structure as is. But the realization occurs to me that the VR is simultaenously useful and useless. For example, Kangaskhan is an A- rank Pokemon but, in my subjective experience, it's not encountered all that often. However, a newer player might not know that and they might over-prepare for it or other rare, high-ranked Pokemon, like Imposter Pikachu (some improof techniques don't work or are shaky against Pikachu).

The VR helps a player learn what's "good", but it doesn't tip them off to what to expect from the mons or which ones they need to prepare for more than others.

So, my thought is switching from a subjective ranking system to a objective rarity system. Break the VR down into pre-defined break points based usage statistics and sort the Pokemon accordingly. We can keep multiple tiers, like Common, Uncommon, Rare, Epic, Legendary for ease of use. We could even divy up a Pokemon's ranking into multiple tiers based on the set it's using (probably just ability for simplicity). As for the exact break points... that would need to be decided.

The thought here is, at a glance, a player could glance at the VR and see which Pokemon are the most, and least, common, especially if also sorted into different abilities. From there, they not only easily see what they need to prepare for to handle the ladder, but also what Pokemon are good as well since the most common are the most likely to be strong.

Example of how it might look

Common

-Arcanine (Huge Power, Wonder Guard, Parental Bond)
-Vaporeon (Water Bubble, Protean)
-Luxray (Wonder Guard)

Uncommon

-Arcanine (Protean, Shadow Tag)
-Lycanroc-Dusk (Huge Power)
-Espeon (Psychic Surge)

Rare

-Espeon (Protean)
-Luxray (Huge Power)
-Umbreon (Wonder Guard, Parental Bond)
-Ninetales (Protean)

We could, of course, run this along a separate, subjective VR if people really insisted. It's honestly not a mutually exclusive deal.


Technically, all the information here is available, but it's just either scattered to the four winds or buried in a bunch of dense numbers. A resource like this would both be useful, easy to use, and, as far as I can tell, relatively easy to keep updated. I think it'd be handier than the current VR in general.


The main downsides to this I see is it wouldn't accurately reflect the tournament scene (although if someone wanted to put in the work, they could compile a similar, tournament list) and some good but rarely used Pokemon might go a bit unnoticed. ...although the latter is true of the current. I think any issues of people manipulating the VR by laddering with weird things is offset by the fact the current VR can potentially be manipulated by vote stuffing and rallying offsite.

 

[Ren]

So, an idle thought. Gen VIII is coming up and I'm thinking maybe restructuring the VR a bit might be a good idea when the new gen comes. Mind, I'm not proposing any changes to the current Gen VII VR, we might as well keep its structure as is. But the realization occurs to me that the VR is simultaenously useful and useless. For example, Kangaskhan is an A- rank Pokemon but, in my subjective experience, it's not encountered all that often. However, a newer player might not know that and they might over-prepare for it or other rare, high-ranked Pokemon, like Imposter Pikachu (some improof techniques don't work or are shaky against Pikachu).

The VR helps a player learn what's "good", but it doesn't tip them off to what to expect from the mons or which ones they need to prepare for more than others.

So, my thought is switching from a subjective ranking system to a objective rarity system. Break the VR down into pre-defined break points based usage statistics and sort the Pokemon accordingly. We can keep multiple tiers, like Common, Uncommon, Rare, Epic, Legendary for ease of use. We could even divy up a Pokemon's ranking into multiple tiers based on the set it's using (probably just ability for simplicity). As for the exact break points... that would need to be decided.

The thought here is, at a glance, a player could glance at the VR and see which Pokemon are the most, and least, common, especially if also sorted into different abilities. From there, they not only easily see what they need to prepare for to handle the ladder, but also what Pokemon are good as well since the most common are the most likely to be strong.

Example of how it might look

Common

-Arcanine (Huge Power, Wonder Guard, Parental Bond)
-Vaporeon (Water Bubble, Protean)
-Luxray (Wonder Guard)

Uncommon

-Arcanine (Protean, Shadow Tag)
-Lycanroc-Dusk (Huge Power)
-Espeon (Psychic Surge)

Rare

-Espeon (Protean)
-Luxray (Huge Power)
-Umbreon (Wonder Guard, Parental Bond)
-Ninetales (Protean)

We could, of course, run this along a separate, subjective VR if people really insisted. It's honestly not a mutually exclusive deal.


Technically, all the information here is available, but it's just either scattered to the four winds or buried in a bunch of dense numbers. A resource like this would both be useful, easy to use, and, as far as I can tell, relatively easy to keep updated. I think it'd be handier than the current VR in general.


The main downsides to this I see is it wouldn't accurately reflect the tournament scene (although if someone wanted to put in the work, they could compile a similar, tournament list) and some good but rarely used Pokemon might go a bit unnoticed. ...although the latter is true of the current. I think any issues of people manipulating the VR by laddering with weird things is offset by the fact the current VR can potentially be manipulated by vote stuffing and rallying offsite.

The Viability Rankings are just that - The Viability Rankings. I think that if we had to do this, it'd be best ran as a different project, but I think people should be preparing for what's good rather than what's common. The biggest concern I have with something like this is that usage fluctuates - Something in rare rank this month might be common next month, and vice versa, so this would require regular updating and wouldn't always be accurate. I don't think this is a required resource. It might be an alright idea but I don't think it'd be much of a priority.

 

[sin(pi)]

A simple solution is to link usage stats in the OP - if someone can check a VR, they can check usage stats too. It doesn't tell people which sets are popular, but you can't have everything.