BH Balanced Hackmons Central Resources

Rant, Rant, anger, Rant... Done
You seem frustrated, lets review your points:
1. "There is something called having a mon on the field before the Imposter is. There is another thing called Imposter hard switching in on you. Which leads to this"
No one questions how Imposter comes in or how it works out during a match, it seems like pointing out common sense feels empowering for you, but it just looks like you hope its something people don't already know, not impressive; sorry that your attempt to sound condescending backfired...
My point was, you cannot get Imposterproof, if you rely on 1/4 chance to have the right move selected before Choice Band locking yourself in. Relying on their Imposter to switch into Hoopa-U has to happen on the first turn you even use U-Turn, as you would switch out if it is anything else, racking up hazard damage and giving away to the foe your only move that can 1HKO Imposter... again, not really reliable enough.

2. "Finally, there is a thing called having an improof and letting that take care of an Imposter that somehow got in safely (such as from a U-turn miss)."
I find it interesting that you mention this when you previously mentioned how hard it is to Improof this set in your last post... what do you Imposterproof this set with, if you go into detail about how hard it is to Improof your own set? Obviously Imposter doesn't use Choice Band, but it can switch moves if it has Eviolite, and can outspeed most Pokemon if it has Choice Scarf, so if its so simple, what would you use?

3. "Now lets see prevalent mons that get OHKOed by Hustle which aren't by Mega Launcher. Apart from Imposter which we covered above."
So basically only 2 Fairy-types, which are 2HKOed, especially as Audino-Mega will go after Hoopa-Unbound, preventing them from being able to switch-in and heal. Zygarde is 1HKOed by Ice Beam / Frost Breathe which is why I included it in my 4th slot for my original set post:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 648-764 (101.8 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete on a critical hit: 588-696 (92.4 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

4. "So you are almost 13 times more likely to face against RegenVest Kyogre + Yveltal than FC trio. "
There are other mons like Fur Coat Gyarados-Mega in the Setpedia, but the point is if the Fairy-types you mentioned are still 2HKOed by Origin Pulse, this tells me that the Band and Specs sets basically just trade 1 and 2HKOs for targets. It doesn't tell me that Hustle is better.

Also, many people reduce the overall average damage, when considering which attacks to use, by the accuracy of the moves... remember, Ice Hammer is 90% accuracy, but due to Hustle it loses 20% accuracy, making it 90% x 0.8 = 72% accuracy, which is lower than Lovely Kiss. So you actually only have a 72% chance to 1HKO Zygarde with Hustle Ice Hammer, while Specs has a 100% chance with Ice Beam. Which do you think is more reliable?

Plus your speed is lowered... so unless you rely on the first turn Hoopa-U is out and you assume Zygarde is going to switch in on Ice Hammer, before you will have to re-switch back in, you risk lowering your Speed on another target and then you wont be guaranteed to go first, meaning they might hit you with something like U-turn and escape, while racking up super effective damage; and since you mentioned a Lonely nature:

252 Atk Zygarde-Complete U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 308-364 (84.6 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The Specs set always hits with its Ice move, and doesn't leave itself slower than its intended target.

5. "In addition, RegenVest has no trouble recovering off the ~30% that you do whereas FC mons need to use a turn to do so. "
Technically, Fur Coat mons and Regenvest mons both require a turn to heal, as RegenVesters have to switch out, which is actually worse, because if they have to switch back into entry hazards, and are limited to 30% recovery, whereas Fur Coat Mons can heal 56.25% if they pack Leftovers + Recovery, effectively stalling out more than RegenVest, with literally no drawbacks on using non-attacking moves... plus, whatever RegenVesters switch into also take hazard damage, so you hurt a teammate automatically. Is the 30% damage recovered going to matter if you end up hurting your teammate from hazards, and likely take at least 30% yourself from the attack + entry hazards?

6. "Idt one uses Hoopa-U to threaten out steel types, you typically leave that for stuff like MMX and PDon and I doubt the opponent will even switch Steel types in in the first place. Hustle's coverage moves deal with all mons that it doesn't 2HKO bar Mega Gyarados which U-turn does a ton and your teammate comes in to clean that up. Mega Launcher, on the other hand, doesn't."
First of all, several Steels are part Psychic/Ghost (Metagross, Dusk-Mane, Solgaleo, Aegislash), so if Hoopa's job isn't to threaten out Ghosts/Psychics, then it's not being utilized for its STAB, especially considering how Steel is resistant to all of the coverage moves you mentioned, so it's nice to know for the non-Ghosts/Psychic Steel-types, Aura Sphere poses a threat to anything not named Celesteela, while Dark Pulse 2HKOs Celesteela.

If you are saying that all of its coverage moves can 2HKO whatever Hyperspace Fury cannot, why don't you count how Specs' coverage moves can also 2HKO whatever Dark Pulse cannot?
Even the examples you gave me on what survives a 1HKO from Origin Pulse is still a 2HKO.

The only Pokemon I can think of that is a 3HKO from Mega Launcher but just a 2HKO from Hustle is Fur Coat Chansey, and that is because of how skewed its Defense vs Special Defense is, with Sunsteel Strike bypassing Fur Coat.

7. "Can't threaten with U-turn if you are either dead or about to because you just took >50%."
Huh? Since when are we always assuming Imposter was hit for over 50%? Maybe Imposter was slow pivoted in vs Hoopa-U and now threatens it with U-Turn.

8. "Finally, if you are using Mega Launcher, why aren't you just using a different special breaker like SF MMY (better coverage, more power through wide super effective coverage, can 2HKO imp after chip, can switch moves, bluff other sets, lacks switch-ins) or Specs Ray (Much more power, coverage kills most switch-ins, bluff other sets, does a ton to imposter)."
Well, it depends what you want coverage for... Aura Sphere and Secret Sword provide fighting coverage and are not boosted by Sheer Force, so you need Mega Launcher to boost their power, unless you rely on Focus Blast, and can serve as an alternative to Fire moves and Ground moves when hitting Steels that may have Flash Fire, or that may have a secondary typing that neutralizes the super effectiveness, such as Ferrothorn, or grants immunity like Celesteela. Some carry Volt Absorb, so Bolt Strike isn't a guarantee. Plus Fighting offers better coverage vs Tyranitar-Mega, Arceus, etc.

Dark Pulse does more damage to Ghosts/Psychics than anything boosted by Sheer Force, first because of STAB from Hoopa-U, and because Sheer Force doesn't boost any Special Ghost or Dark moves besides Shadow Ball and Night Daze at 30% power, but not 50% power.

As we saw in your Calcs. Dark Pulse is stronger for neutral coverage than MMY's Psychic, also due to the Item and Ability difference. So if you need to hit something neutrally, Dark Pulse will hit for more.

Lastly, Psychic, Fighting, and Dark cover much of the metagame pretty well, and the 4th move can be used for the Dragons that are common enough. MMY Sheer Force doesn't cover everything, as it really just depends on the moves it uses and some skip the move Psychic altogether. It's hard to compare when you don't specify the specific 4 moves on SF MMY you want to discuss.
 
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Time for more suggestions for a Role Compendium overhaul.

Suggestions go by descending order starting with Stallbreakers.

Add Mega Garchomp, Mega Tyranitar, and Mega Gyarados to Mold Breaker; Moldy Pursuit is good.

Remove Slaking and Regigigas from Mold Breaker. I forgot to mention them in the last post but Mold Breaker Slaking/Gigas is unused.

How many of the Pokemon in the Perish Trap section actually run Perish Trap now? Zygarde-C, Mega Slowbro, maybe Mega Audino or Arceus, but Lugia and ... Mega Gengar?... Why is Mega Gengar in this list? Some of these mons should probably be reviewed.
Probably an unpopular opinion but I think Lugia is kind of crap. I don't think it should be in the Role Compendium any more considering it's not really used and isn't that good.
Remove:
Magic Bounce (unused ability, remove Xerneas from the list too if I haven't mentioned it), Prankster (unused ability, likely artifact); Add: Flash Fire as a category. I'm honestly somewhat surprised Flash Fire doesn't have a category for itself considering it is very prevalent.
Is RegenVest Mega Slowbro even used and is it viable? I don't actually remember and I think it's just a crappy version of Cresselia in that regard. On another topic. I'm not sure if there should be a Perish Trap section, but rather, I think a Soundproof section would be much more useful. Also, is Mega Slowbro really a Zygarde-C check? I don't think it is. A soft check at best.
Add: Prankster (it can trap Imposter while being immune to Parting Shot, letting it self-improof while being able to pivot)
While I won't say that Mega Venusaur isn't viable in BH, it should probably have some more attention drawn to it for up-to-date sets. I don't know what's really viable other than Flash Fire at the moment.
Is Muk still even used? It would probably be safe to remove it as it might be an artifact.
I've noticed Mega Steelix is nowhere to be found. You can add it as a Flash Fire Pokemon, a RegenVest Pokemon (particularly good because it can trap Imposter while being able to pivot with Volt Switch), and it is a decent Prankster Pokemon.

Add Kyogre-Primal to the Mega Gengar checks section. Kyogre-Primal can be a hard counter to Mega Gengar if it wants.

Something tells me the Groudon-Primal checks section was made before Groudon-Primal got banned and that this section is not for Red Orb Groudon. You can probably remove this section and replace it with Flash Fire or something.

Also Kyogre-Primal. Is it really that big of a threat that it deserves a checks section? Giratina should be there if so, because most Kyogre-Primal sets are defensive now.

Add a Mega Diancie checks section. I think Mega Diancie has gotten to the point of where it warrants one.

Mega Gengar doesn't really run Z-Moves any more. I'd remove the Ghostium-Z reference in self-improof setup sweepers.
What even is the self-improof set here? Not only is Magearna not an offensive Pokemon, Dry Skin and Fire Judgment sounds like hot trash. Why would Magearna want Dry Skin outside of a Rain team? And at that point why would Magearna use Fire Judgment when it's weakened in Rain?

That ends the suggestions for the current listings. Now for some new ones I haven't mentioned.
Mega Charizard Y should have a spot on Poison Heal. MAMP's sets are good.

Add weather to the mix. Blacephalon, Reshiram, Mega Charizard Y, and many of the current Pokemon on the Role Compendium like Mega Rayquaza make use of Sun with weather abilities. Palkia, Kyogre-Primal, Mega Gyarados, and many of the current Pokemon make use of Rain with weather abilities. Diancie (not mega), Mega Tyranitar, Regirock, Mega Aerodactyl, and many of the current Pokemon make use of Sand with weather abilities. Hail is a bit more complex but Kyurem-W can get fully accurate Blizzards, various bulky Pokemon can use Aurora Veil, and fast Spore users can make use of Hail while not being impacted by Hail damage or Spore due to Safety Goggles.

Speed boosting abilities like Chlorophyll, Sand Rush, Swift Swim, and Slush Rush make many Pokemon extremely dangerous. Solar Power can make a Pokemon horrifically strong in Sun. Sun and Rain are specifically great on most teams as Flash Fire and Dry Skin exist so that your Pokemon are easy to improof. Fire and Water-type attacks are a lot stronger which makes Eruption/Mind Blown and Water Spout/Origin Pulse very scary. Sand makes your Rock-types very difficult to take down with special attacks. Weather provides a lot of options and can be very fun to build around.

I'd honestly like to say to include Electric and Grassy Surge too, but I've been having difficulty building viable teams, especially for the latter. I do think Electric Surge can definitely be added as Surge Surfer exists and Bolt Strike is a great coverage move, but it might be difficult to build around.

That's about it for me. Can't really think of anything else to add.
 
Storm Eagle Not entirely sure Bounce Xerneas is unused, since I've encountered a couple recently. Granted, they were lower ELO players (1300ish), so dunno how much it ought to count.

Pogre checks might be worth keeping since, even though the PH set isn't nearly as common as it once was, it's still a game ender if the opponent has no good way of checking it.

Lugia works well as a good physical Contrary check, since 4x resist to Superpower means it basically gets free turns every time they try to boost their attack. It checks special Contrary reasonably well too. Although not sure if Contrary check is enough to keep it listed. But its one of my top ten favorite Pokemon, so I'm compelled to at least try to defend it...



For Electric Surge, it's a little tricky since the mons that benefit the most from terrain also really want to run Galvanize or something to abuse it better. Zekrom is probably the best Electric-type setter, but would really love Galvanize or Tough Claws to hit harder with the terrain. Xurkitree, Ampharos, and Manectric all abuse it really well with Galvanize, however. I've found Swampert to be a pretty decent support setter, since it can not only check Galvanized Imposters, but is also reasonably durable enough to set it a few times a match. Not sure its the best though. I'd share my team, but it's a WIP still since I keep getting distracted by other teams and ideas when I play.
 
You seem frustrated, lets review your points:
I wasn't raging or ranting lmao I was having backed up arguments while slightly mocking your arguments. You could say I am frustrated at how someone can produce such poor arguments while still thinking its great.
No one questions how Imposter comes in or how it works out during a match, it seems like pointing out common sense feels empowering for you, but it just looks like you hope its something people don't already know, not impressive; sorry that your attempt to sound condescending backfired...
Pointing out common sense is very effective when you apparently always assume Imposter is on the field, transformed, and at full health. Again, wasn't trying to sound condescending, was trying to sound mocking, my bad for not doing it well that you can't realize it.
My point was, you cannot get Imposterproof, if you rely on 1/4 chance to have the right move selected before Choice Band locking yourself in. Relying on their Imposter to switch into Hoopa-U has to happen on the first turn you even use U-Turn, as you would switch out if it is anything else, racking up hazard damage and giving away to the foe your only move that can 1HKO Imposter... again, not really reliable enough.
The point is as long as you have the threat of OHKOing their imposter if they are a competent player then they wouldn't risk it unless absolutely necessary. In addition, are you saying that when I am using this Hoopa-U I click a random move through a random number generator, because if I see Imposter I will much more likely click U-turn lol. Plus, even if you click Hyperspace Fury you are dealing 376-444 (53.4 - 63%) which is a huge chunk. Finally, I would rather prefer to be very threatening to Imposter than losing to Imposter every single time with that meme Mega Launcher set. Oh yes and you apparently assume that teams don't have hazard removal. If you constantly switch in your main wallbreaker into hazard chip then you are hopeless. Try the move Defog.
I find it interesting that you mention this when you previously mentioned how hard it is to Improof this set in your last post... what do you Imposterproof this set with, if you go into detail about how hard it is to Improof your own set? Obviously Imposter doesn't use Choice Band, but it can switch moves if it has Eviolite, and can outspeed most Pokemon if it has Choice Scarf, so if its so simple, what would you use?
All things have a trade off, this set trades insane breaking power for lack of a common improof. In my WCOM game I ran Regen Blaze, although PH Blaze can work, and stuff like Relaxed FC Fini and FC Dialga can work too. The point is you can always come with an improof, no matter how niche it is, and deny Imposter.
So basically only 2 Fairy-types, which are 2HKOed, especially as Audino-Mega will go after Hoopa-Unbound, preventing them from being able to switch-in and heal. Zygarde is 1HKOed by Ice Beam / Frost Breathe which is why I included it in my 4th slot for my original set post
So that is already 2 top tier mons that you cannot pivot on because you don't threaten an OHKO.
There are other mons like Fur Coat Gyarados-Mega in the Setpedia, but the point is if the Fairy-types you mentioned are still 2HKOed by Origin Pulse, this tells me that the Band and Specs sets basically just trade 1 and 2HKOs for targets. It doesn't tell me that Hustle is better.

Also, many people reduce the overall average damage, when considering which attacks to use, by the accuracy of the moves... remember, Ice Hammer is 90% accuracy, but due to Hustle it loses 20% accuracy, making it 90% x 0.8 = 72% accuracy, which is lower than Lovely Kiss. So you actually only have a 72% chance to 1HKO Zygarde with Hustle Ice Hammer, while Specs has a 100% chance with Ice Beam. Which do you think is more reliable?

Plus your speed is lowered... so unless you rely on the first turn Hoopa-U is out and you assume Zygarde is going to switch in on Ice Hammer, before you will have to re-switch back in, you risk lowering your Speed on another target and then you wont be guaranteed to go first, meaning they might hit you with something like U-turn and escape, while racking up super effective damage; and since you mentioned a Lonely nature:

252 Atk Zygarde-Complete U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 308-364 (84.6 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The Specs set always hits with its Ice move, and doesn't leave itself slower than its intended target.
OH WOW ANOTHER UNSET, whats going to be next FC Groudon lol!!! Once again Fairy Types are no longer threatened out because they live a hit and can retaliate. And yes this does indicate that Hustle is better because it gains a lot more opportunities to switch in and start wrecking stuff. With the sheer power you have even if you mispredict something is taking a chunk and will probably recover off leaving you time to switch to your second attacker/pivot to gain some momentum. Oh btw I don’t think people calculate bp based off of acc, sounds like something a bad player would do.
Technically, Fur Coat mons and Regenvest mons both require a turn to heal, as RegenVesters have to switch out, which is actually worse, because if they have to switch back into entry hazards, and are limited to 30% recovery, whereas Fur Coat Mons can heal 56.25% if they pack Leftovers + Recovery, effectively stalling out more than RegenVest, with literally no drawbacks on using non-attacking moves... plus, whatever RegenVesters switch into also take hazard damage, so you hurt a teammate automatically. Is the 30% damage recovered going to matter if you end up hurting your teammate from hazards, and likely take at least 30% yourself from the attack + entry hazards?
Once again I don't think you have heard of the move Defog and its friend Rapid Spin that is much more unreliable but hey it works on stuff like Yvetal. I'm not sure if you understand how this is supposed to work. RegenVest switches in, takes at most 35, and clicks U-turn, you stay in, it takes at most 35 more, does a million to you, regains 33 health, brings in Revenge Killer. FC, on the other hand, needs to recover because it just took like 35 and will get 2hkoed next time. This allows you to play aggressively by bringing in your secondary attacker or play conservatively by bringing in a pivot like Mega Audino to slow pivot on that wall and potentially bring in Hoopa again and this time maybe click the right move to bop. If you run Lefties on FC mon you are pretty funny.
First of all, several Steels are part Psychic/Ghost (Metagross, Dusk-Mane, Solgaleo, Aegislash), so if Hoopa's job isn't to threaten out Ghosts/Psychics, then it's not being utilized for its STAB, especially considering how Steel is resistant to all of the coverage moves you mentioned, so it's nice to know for the non-Ghosts/Psychic Steel-types, Aura Sphere poses a threat to anything not named Celesteela, while Dark Pulse 2HKOs Celesteela.

If you are saying that all of its coverage moves can 2HKO whatever Hyperspace Fury cannot, why don't you count how Specs' coverage moves can also 2HKO whatever Dark Pulse cannot?
Even the examples you gave me on what survives a 1HKO from Origin Pulse is still a 2HKO.

The only Pokemon I can think of that is a 3HKO from Mega Launcher but just a 2HKO from Hustle is Fur Coat Chansey, and that is because of how skewed its Defense vs Special Defense is, with Sunsteel Strike bypassing Fur Coat.
Ok but you are saying Aura Sphere is so great because it beats steel types (which it doesn't beat the "psychic and ghost secondary types") when they never switch in anyways. You don't see people switching Registeels and Celesteelas in to Hoopa, if you do, its probably either low ladder crap or desperation. You don't need Aura Sphere to bop steels if Hyperspace Fury 2hkos them already lol. Also nice selection of coverage that loses to regenvest ogre and yvel, if you run thunder it doesn’t even 2hko ogre. Also you say the set is dark pulse photon geyser aura sphere origin pulse and ice beam which is a nice 5 moves.
Huh? Since when are we always assuming Imposter was hit for over 50%? Maybe Imposter was slow pivoted in vs Hoopa-U and now threatens it with U-Turn.
I was clearly indicating not only imposter, but whatever switch in you have that was planning to uturn on hoopa. Also imp takes more than 50 from hyperspace. Finally if you are switching hoopa u in and eat a uturn, you are pretty bad lol.
Well, it depends what you want coverage for... Aura Sphere and Secret Sword provide fighting coverage and are not boosted by Sheer Force, so you need Mega Launcher to boost their power, unless you rely on Focus Blast, and can serve as an alternative to Fire moves and Ground moves when hitting Steels that may have Flash Fire, or that may have a secondary typing that neutralizes the super effectiveness, such as Ferrothorn, or grants immunity like Celesteela. Some carry Volt Absorb, so Bolt Strike isn't a guarantee. Plus Fighting offers better coverage vs Tyranitar-Mega, Arceus, etc.

Dark Pulse does more damage to Ghosts/Psychics than anything boosted by Sheer Force, first because of STAB from Hoopa-U, and because Sheer Force doesn't boost any Special Ghost or Dark moves besides Shadow Ball and Night Daze at 30% power, but not 50% power.

As we saw in your Calcs. Dark Pulse is stronger for neutral coverage than MMY's Psychic, also due to the Item and Ability difference. So if you need to hit something neutrally, Dark Pulse will hit for more.

Lastly, Psychic, Fighting, and Dark cover much of the metagame pretty well, and the 4th move can be used for the Dragons that are common enough. MMY Sheer Force doesn't cover everything, as it really just depends on the moves it uses and some skip the move Psychic altogether. It's hard to compare when you don't specify the specific 4 moves on SF MMY you want to discuss.
The classic MMY with Psychic BoltBeam EP has 2 switch ins, fc chansey and shed. If you are telling me that’s bad coverage then idek anymore lol. MMY doesn’t need fighting coverage because yveltal dies to boltbeam, steels die to ep or beam, ttar dies to ep, gyara dies to bolt. Again, Volt Absorb is an unset, and ice beam 2hkos it with minor chip. You also don’t need coverage for stuff like arceus if psychic is a clean 2hko. All ghosts die to some coverage and bro dies to bolt, cress dies to bolt after minor chip. Dark pulse hits harder because of specs, do realize that mmy gets to switch moves. Yeah nice dark psychic fighting coverage that loses to the top special walls.
 

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this is a dumb argument that looks mostly based on theorymon

No one questions how Imposter comes in or how it works out during a match, it seems like pointing out common sense feels empowering for you, but it just looks like you hope its something people don't already know, not impressive; sorry that your attempt to sound condescending backfired...
haha yes i will respond to this guy being condescending by being condescending myself. edit: this argument is really bad now lol:
OH WOW ANOTHER UNSET, whats going to be next FC Groudon lol!!!
benefits of cb over specs:
- doesn't get switched in on consistently by eviolite imposter (this is actually sad)
- doesn't have to choose between origin pulse and ice beam
- no common set switches in consistently. fc gyara is also extremely rare and doesn't even make a good counter because of uturn, other fc mons actually just get 2hkod by hyperspace after hazards
- doesn't have to deal with regenvest just uturning and killing you. "switching out" is actually pretty bad for you in this situation
- ohkos xern on the switch, which takes like 60 on the switch from specs even assuming ur origin pulse and forces you out with sleep

benefits of specs over cb:
- more accurate
- kills random fc mons i guess
- easier to imposter-proof with like yveltal
- has fighting coverage to kill some steels, which also take a billion from cb hyperspace unless they brought the sacred mon mega aggron

not gonna lie specs just doesn't look as good to me as band, and when you have a mon with all the flaws of hoopa u, that translates to almost unusable in general. i'm not convinced that it's a set that you'd reasonably want to put on your team.

unrelated but non ph xern is actually a really good mon, don't think it should b removed yet. i have yet to try bounce but soundproof and contrary are both cool
 
For Electric Surge, it's a little tricky since the mons that benefit the most from terrain also really want to run Galvanize or something to abuse it better. Zekrom is probably the best Electric-type setter, but would really love Galvanize or Tough Claws to hit harder with the terrain. Xurkitree, Ampharos, and Manectric all abuse it really well with Galvanize, however. I've found Swampert to be a pretty decent support setter, since it can not only check Galvanized Imposters, but is also reasonably durable enough to set it a few times a match. Not sure its the best though. I'd share my team, but it's a WIP still since I keep getting distracted by other teams and ideas when I play.
Don't use offensive mons with Electric Surge. That's a bad idea. Electric Surge is better on defensive mons as you can get more use out of it over the game. Also, Zekrom is better than Tough Claws or Adaptability than Galvanize. Choice Band Bolt Strike Zekrom in Electric Terrain is ludicrously powerful and it can threaten the Ground-types in the meta if it wants.

Xurkitree and Manectric are good, Ampharos is honestly garbage. Ampharos is too slow to be of any use, even with Surge Surfer. Xurkitree can either be ridiculously strong with Galvanize or it can be a decent revenge killer with Surge Surfer. Manectric is already fast enough that it doesn't need Surge Surfer. Not to mention that Surge Surfer Pokemon don't necessarily need to be Electric-type, which adds to the variety.

As for the Hoopa-U argument, the reason I mentioned Band Hoopa-U over Specs is because strong phyiscal Dark-types are always welcome, while... uh... I don't know if strong special Dark-types are really needed. Hoopa-U carves its niche as the strongest physical Dark-type with Band and Hustle (Hustle is significantly stronger than Tough Claws, maybe even twice as strong) without needing to utilize setup. I think Mega Launcher Hoopa-U falls into the same category as Mega Launcher Ash-Greninja here, a Dark-type mainly used specially with mediocre coverage and because of it neither are really used. The problem is that Ash-Greninja at least has STAB Origin Pulse... the only Psychic-type move boosted by Mega Launcher is... Heal Pulse. You get my point.
 
this is a dumb argument that looks mostly based on theorymon


haha yes i will respond to this guy being condescending by being condescending myself. edit: this argument is really bad now lol:


benefits of cb over specs:
- doesn't get switched in on consistently by eviolite imposter (this is actually sad)
- doesn't have to choose between origin pulse and ice beam
- no common set switches in consistently. fc gyara is also extremely rare and doesn't even make a good counter because of uturn, other fc mons actually just get 2hkod by hyperspace after hazards
- doesn't have to deal with regenvest just uturning and killing you. "switching out" is actually pretty bad for you in this situation
- ohkos xern on the switch, which takes like 60 on the switch from specs even assuming ur origin pulse and forces you out with sleep

benefits of specs over cb:
- more accurate
- kills random fc mons i guess
- easier to imposter-proof with like yveltal
- has fighting coverage to kill some steels, which also take a billion from cb hyperspace unless they brought the sacred mon mega aggron

not gonna lie specs just doesn't look as good to me as band, and when you have a mon with all the flaws of hoopa u, that translates to almost unusable in general. i'm not convinced that it's a set that you'd reasonably want to put on your team.

unrelated but non ph xern is actually a really good mon, don't think it should b removed yet. i have yet to try bounce but soundproof and contrary are both cool
I agree, the discussion became an argument from him after his first post explaining the set (which was okay), but then it divulged into him trying to assume control and get condescending, and I feel that Chessking345 is biased because I remember he posted this CB Hustle set in the Creative & Underrated Sets thread a while back.

I wasn't saying his set was bad, I wanted to simply know what the four preferred moves were when Storm brought it up the idea of using CB and Hustle, and I actually posted about CB Hustle Hoopa-Unbound a while back for it's Hyperspace Fury never-miss effect. I am not against using it for that purpose, I just needed to understand what moves were the ones people for sure wanted to focus on / select in order to compare options, since Chessking's post in that other thread didn't gain much traction and there could be alternatives.

Based on what you wrote, I didn't bother to read his post, since you summarized what I assume were his points, as well as my own.
Gyarados-Mega point:
does okay if it has Fur Coat, plus a Counter's job is to force out or threaten the foe, obligating a switching move means it has done its job, also U-Turn needs to be used on the exact turn Gyarados-Mega comes in, otherwise, since Gyarados is faster, it can threaten with a U-turn of its own.
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Gyarados-Mega: 150-178 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Gyarados-Mega U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 376-444 (103.2 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO *Just to show it doesn't have to use a Lonely nature to be 1HKOed
I feel if you find my post was condescending then its only fair you call each person out, instead of waiting for me to supposedly do it and act like its on me for bringing it up at all.

If you actually read my statement as a neutral tone, without any sarcasm or sense of a "smarty-pants" tone (which I assume you read it as such), then you can see I am just pointing out what he is literally doing.
That's not me being condescending to him, it is just acknowledging his attempt didn't work out, and that was to prevent him from doing it again, AKA "it's not helping anyone, including yourself, so don't."
Re-read it in a neutral tone, then you can realize I am just stating it as such. I know text doesn't carry the way words sound in the same way speaking would, so people draw their own conclusions on how it is being delivered, from that I can understand how you interpreted it that way.
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As for the Hoopa-U argument, the reason I mentioned Band Hoopa-U over Specs is because strong phyiscal Dark-types are always welcome, while... uh... I don't know if strong special Dark-types are really needed. Hoopa-U carves its niche as the strongest physical Dark-type with Band and Hustle (Hustle is significantly stronger than Tough Claws, maybe even twice as strong) without needing to utilize setup. I think Mega Launcher Hoopa-U falls into the same category as Mega Launcher Ash-Greninja here, a Dark-type mainly used specially with mediocre coverage and because of it neither are really used. The problem is that Ash-Greninja at least has STAB Origin Pulse... the only Psychic-type move boosted by Mega Launcher is... Heal Pulse. You get my point.
I get it, I was looking at the strongest Dark STAB SpA and noticed 170 SpA Hoopa-U must be strong, and that often Ghost/Dark is paired with Fighting for coverage. Mega Launcher seems like an option to boost both types on the SpA side, and with STAB on Dark Pulse, it seemed like it could nab the same Super Effective KOs as the Hustle set, specifically with STAB Dark moves.

Further, 100% accuracy Ice Beam allowed it to 1HKO Zygarde, while Ice Hammer's 72% accuracy felt like using Blizzard, and could risk getting 1HKOed by Zygarde's U-turn, especially if you already lost Speed from prior Ice Hammer uses and are now slower as a result.
Plus, Fur Coat can be used on pretty much anything with decent bulk, while RegenVest can be Knocked Off, and prevents non-attacking moves, while Fur Coat will let Giratina, Lugia, and Slowbro-Mega survive hits from the Dark Move that Specs would 1HKO:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 300-354 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Slowbro-Mega: 222-264 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zygarde-Complete: 396-468 (62.2 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Lugia: 284-336 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

VS:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 500-590 (99.2 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowbro-Mega: 440-518 (111.6 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 648-764 (101.8 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 420-494 (100.9 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Plus others like Fur Coat Zygarde, Fur Coat Tapu Fini, and Fur Coat Lugia are 2HKOed by Hoopa-U, which means that Ice Hammer has to hit 2x in row at 72% accuracy... so 72% x .72 = 51.84% accuracy, and as the Speed is lowered after the first hit, Zygarde might have U-Turned to 1HKO Hoopa-U before the 2nd hit. And Sunsteel Strike has 64% chance to 2HKO as outlined below:

Even on the other coverage moves- 2HKOs on anything from Sunsteel, or U-turn only have an 80% x .8 = 64% accuracy. So you really rely on 1HKOs to fulfill your role, or rely on Hyperspace Fury, which Dark Pulse seems to do well enough vs the super effective targets.

I see the merits of both sets, and I thought that I don't see RegenVest Giratina, or even Zygarde-Complete, but I do see Fur Coat Zygarde, Slowbro-Mega, and sometimes Giratina. Dark Pulse handles those, just like Hyperspace Fury hits RegenVest.

Lugia isn't on the Setpedia at all, so I can't vouch for it being the main set, but I wouldn't be surprised if Fur Coat is a fairly common option.

TLDR: Both have merits, CBand seems more like a higher risk, higher reward physical attacker, while CSpecs seems like a Special wall breaker that never misses.
 
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Raise Xerneas to A+. The thing is great enough with the standard set, but most wonnabe checks gets beaten quite often because Xern runs something different and it's gg. Coil ph xern actually gets perfect coverage with Thousand Arrows + Play Rough, and has access to perfect accuracy sleep moves (nevermind the fact that this may not last long) in Lovely Kiss. FF Celesteela and Ho-Oh lose to this, despite being considered counters to common sets, and you don't get to see whether Xerneas is running physical or special on team preview. Or instead Xern decides to run Taunt and your nice resist gets chipped at every switchin without recovery allowed. Sure you have Regenerator and ph and Magic Bounce but regenerators gets slept, ph counterplay is limited to Regigigas and Primal Kyogre and both lose to physical Xern (albeit Xern wants a Coil or two under the belt before taking on both) and Magic Bounce has to resist Xern moves and it usually picks coverage that ends up being perfect (or almost perfect). Most sets are improof and the ones carrying Magma Storm also beat Shedinja, and if that wasn't enough Magma Storm isn't carried only for Shedinja and Xern doesn't suffer from overspecialization. Xern can adapt to trap most sets, and ghosts must deal with Moonblast, Magma Storm and Earth Power anyway, and why not add spore to that list. Counterplay is having the wall that Xern decided being walled by, never let it setup and have something like Kartana threatening its existence. As long as you keep it away from Anchor Shot (and again if it's not a real attacker, like Registeel, Xerneas wins with Coil Variants) it's relevant in most matches.
 
Raise Xerneas to A+. The thing is great enough with the standard set, but most wonnabe checks gets beaten quite often because Xern runs something different and it's gg. Coil ph xern actually gets perfect coverage with Thousand Arrows + Play Rough, and has access to perfect accuracy sleep moves (nevermind the fact that this may not last long) in Lovely Kiss. FF Celesteela and Ho-Oh lose to this, despite being considered counters to common sets, and you don't get to see whether Xerneas is running physical or special on team preview. Or instead Xern decides to run Taunt and your nice resist gets chipped at every switchin without recovery allowed. Sure you have Regenerator and ph and Magic Bounce but regenerators gets slept, ph counterplay is limited to Regigigas and Primal Kyogre and both lose to physical Xern (albeit Xern wants a Coil or two under the belt before taking on both) and Magic Bounce has to resist Xern moves and it usually picks coverage that ends up being perfect (or almost perfect). Most sets are improof and the ones carrying Magma Storm also beat Shedinja, and if that wasn't enough Magma Storm isn't carried only for Shedinja and Xern doesn't suffer from overspecialization. Xern can adapt to trap most sets, and ghosts must deal with Moonblast, Magma Storm and Earth Power anyway, and why not add spore to that list. Counterplay is having the wall that Xern decided being walled by, never let it setup and have something like Kartana threatening its existence. As long as you keep it away from Anchor Shot (and again if it's not a real attacker, like Registeel, Xerneas wins with Coil Variants) it's relevant in most matches.
I'm not nominating anything, but I realized Mega Swampert has comparable bulk to Xerneas, slighly higher Attack, and only a single, uncommon weakness to Grass.

For Bulk comparisons consider these calcs:
Positive nature Arceus vs Neutral nature Mega Swampert

252+ SpA Arceus Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Swampert-Mega: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Arceus Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Swampert-Mega: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

Positive nature Arceus vs Neutral nature Xerneas

252+ Atk Arceus Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 195-229 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Arceus Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Xerneas: 190-225 (41.6 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That got me thinking that the Coil set you suggested may be a suitable fit for it, as it simply swaps STAB Play Rough for Thousand Arrows, which is arguably a better trade off considering that Thousand Arrows is needed to hit everything, while Play Rough is for Pokemon weak to Fairy.

The fact that Swampert has higher attack with a neutral nature (399), than Xerneas does with a positive nature (397), also helped me know that I could invest in a positive Defense or Special Defense Nature to take hits better than Xerneas, breaking the ties it has for Defense or Special Defense durability, while dealing the same amount of damage on its STAB move.

Obviously, the biggest disadvantage for Mega Swampert would be the fact it is not immune to Core Enforcer, and thus if it wanted to not get hurt by status (including Toxic Orb Poison damage), you would need to use Comatose, necessitating Leftovers to avoid losing out on Passive healing.

This requires huge reasons to use Mega Swampert, namely resistances/immunity to the common Fire, Steel, and Electric coverage, as well as the uncommon Rock, Poison attacks. Having an immunity to occasional Sandstreams, and resistance to the omnipresent Stealth Rocks help it as well.

In comparison Xerneas has a resistance/immunity to Fighting, Dark, Bug, and Dragon and weakness to the very common Sunsteel Strike, and the growing in popularity Sludge Wave Mega Gengar / Poison Jab Mega Beedrill.

I.e. Mega Swampert can stay in on Tough Claws Kyurem-Black (Bolt Strike, Sunsteel Strike, Ice Hammer), etc.

Obviously, you don't have to settle for Comatose, as Poison Heal can be used with a minimal Speed investment, helping you avoid Core Enforcer at only 130 Speed. I guess Ice Hammer could be used over Play Rough to lower Speed as well, and to KO Zygarde-Complete, etc.

I simply thought it was an interesting idea you brought up that could be considered on a Pokemon with a similar stat spread, and a reasonable exchange in STAB.
 
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Remember guys, the purpose of this thread is to discuss any/all of the above and thus what I have posted is in no way conclusive, final or immutable. Just make sure to backup your suggestions with concise and rational backing. I would rather not have "Shedinja to S+ rank pls xD!" one-liners in here if possible. Make use of replays, logs, reasoning or anything else to backup your idea but don't write novels.
why is innards out banned?
 
why is innards out banned?
It can be used an any random pokemon to just ohko or heavily damage them if they kill you, like on a pdon (which at the time wasn't banned) or mega ray for example especially with shell smash so you die more easily, and it can be especially well used on min defense chansey which can switch into literally any physical move to just take out a mon of your choice, for example if you switch into a registeel's u-turn they lose their wall to your diancie and there isn't really much they can do about it other than run no physical moves

edit: also if you go to the suspects and bans thread in the second post it has links for each ban that go to the discussion about it
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
Community Leader
VR is back on the menu. Here's the proposed changes from the BHC and thread nominations:
<Rise Fall No Change , Sorted by Final Rank (Rise, No Change, Fall)>

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Stay tuned for more updates for the BHC. Feel free to discuss any of these changes. The final changes will be reflected in the OP by Friday, 1/25, pending further discussion here.
 
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Is this Attack, Speed, or both forms? Because I'm pretty sure people nommed Speed form to go down.

I also disagree with Mega Tyranitar dropping. It's an extremely versatile Dark-type and hasn't really gotten that much worse aside from the presence of Xerneas, Mega Diancie, and Mega Mewtwo X, all three of which were just as used a few months ago as they are now.
 
A->A+
Agree, can pick checks and counters, -ate boomburst comes out of nowhere and grabs kills. 6 different sets is a lot to plan for.
A->A+
Agree, wouldn't it be weird if I didn't?
+
A- -> A
Undecided, can deal with dragons OR imposter, but not both at the same time. Given that many pdon are found with recovery, imposter can get in even on pblades and heal it.
A- -> A
Disagree, it still requires lots and lots of team support to properly work, almost mandates imposter to properly scout the team and it's absolutely destroyed by counters, often without counterplay; the most iconic being Mold Breaker Pursuit, but I sometimes run sand stream and Shed dies to it because pads > googles.
A+->A
Agree, today answers to mgar are everywhere and consistent.
/
A->A-
Undecided, Regigigas is still one of the things you must 100% prepare against at teambuilding or gg, but it's very predictable. Same goes for its brother.
A- -> B+
Agree, not defensively useful enough as for today's meta.
A- -> B+
Agree, Necrozma-DM stole its place.
B->B+
Agree, offensive Speed Boost sets are hella fun and 120*3 bulk means you won't rkill it easily, with mmx dying to +3 ghost judj which outspeeds.
B+->B+
Agree, everything but fc is bad tho.
B- -> B
Agree, it picks the things it walls. Really nice.
B->B
Disagree, i'd like this to drop to B-, preparing for mgar usually means you prepare also for this. Getting 2hkoed by tina doesn't help either.
B->B
Agree, not much to add.
B->B
Agree, not much to add.
B+->B
Agree, too many weaknesses.
C->B-
Agree, when it runs Magic Guard it is annoyingly bulky.
C->B-
Agree, typing makes this worth it.
C->B-
Agree, faster than most of the meta.
C->B-
Agree, what it lacks in typing (it only checks mmy/mmx typing wise, let's face it) it gets in bulk.
B->B-
Agree, Galva isn't scaring anyone, and neither are other sets.
B->B-
Disagree, eating spore despite the set/item is really nice and if it says that it walls something, then it is walling it (unless it's mmx).
B->B-
Agree, lately it doesn't help.
B->B-
Agree, fast yes, powerful not so much.
B- -> C
Disagree, I'd like this to drop more. Slower then mgar is bad.
UR->D
Undecided, never saw on action.
UR->D
Disagree, let it stay in UR. Rock-Steel doesn't bring anything on the table.
D->D
Undecided, strong it's strong, but it's hard to use.
D->D
Undecided, idk why people would use it.
C->D
Disagree, Deo-a might be an inferior version of most attackers, but imposter can't get in. It's a good enough niche.
UR->UR
UR->UR
UR->UR
UR->UR
UR->UR
UR->UR
UR->UR
UR->UR
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C->UR
Agree from buzzwhole to lunala, who cares.
 
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It only got a couple mentions recently, but I thought that Beedrill was due for a rise. The banded Tough Claws set is very popular right now and can pick its coverage moves/what walls it, which include Ice Hammer, Close Combat, V-Create, Bolt Strike, Sunsteel Strike, or even more. Putting loads of pressure on one of the best offensive mons in the game (MMY) is also a huge perk. It still doesn't like most Giratina sets, but this one still does a lot of damage, meaning opposing Giratina have to stay healthy to avoid a KO on the predicted switch.

252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Beedrill-Mega Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 300-354 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

GL Volkner

meet me in the afterglow
is a Tiering Contributor
Why is Mega Gengar being nominated for a drop? The best counter is RegenVest Yveltal, and the second best "counter", Primal Kyogre, struggles to answer sets such as Normalize QD. Between its Specs Wallbreaker sets and Mold Breaker setup sweeper sets, anything else that tries to answer Mega Gengar is going to have a difficult time. Normalize Mega Gengar's impact in teambuilding is similar to that of Shedinja - You need a check to it. However, unlike Shedinja, it combines this asset with a myriad of other sets which further restrict its checks in practice, as with Shedinja, Giratina, an omnipresent Pokemon anyways, is more than sufficient in order to provide a switchin to Shedinja. Stuff like hazards, which are also common, are very good for checking Shedinja. The Sungeist Geyser category of moves has good uses other than checking Shedinja. Sure, we can get into Moldy Pursuit, but that's a specialized option and one I'd argue isn't needed on a team to beat Shedinja. On the other hand, Normalize Mega Gengar mandates RegenVest Yveltal, which checks almost always, or RegenVest Primal Kyogre, which can lose to Quiver Dance. Other options such as Dialga, Mega Audino, or Mega Tyranitar all struggle to check Mega Gengar's other sets. You can use Unaware variants of the two previous Pokemon, but they also fail to answer the rising Specs Wallbreaker sets.

In addition, Mega Gengar's impact in game before its set has been revealed is very outstanding. Its impact, again, is something I would compare to Shed - You want to keep its check alive, because you don't want to be swept by Normalize Quiver Dance or Normalize Shell Smash. Whether it's another set? That's irrelevant. You can't even tell what set it is off team preview because almost every Mega Gengar set ever is self Imposterproof, and Specs sets can be Imposterproofed by Pokemon like your own Imposter. It is true that once its set is revealed, it's a lot easier to deal with and puts in less work -- but that's not where its impact is. Its impact is before the set has been revealed and at the teambuilder level, both levels where it excels in impacting the game.

One thing I neglected to mention earlier was offensively checking Mega Gengar with -ate and Triage. The reason I neglected to mention this is because Dazzling is also a Mega Gengar set, so simply relying on priority won't help you very much. In addition, these Pokemon that check Mega Gengar with priority are very easily worn down.

I don't think Mega Gengar should drop. Between the impact it has on the aforementioned levels of BH, the lack of splashability of its best counter and second best counter, as well as its second best counter and other checks losing to its myriad of other sets, I think it's just fine in A+. If Shedinja is rising to A, then Mega Gengar, a Pokemon which arguably has much, much more of an impact both at the teambuilder level and in game, should definitely not share the rank. Yesterday in Discord, we were talking about Mega Diancie having more of an impact in game than Mega Gengar - I agree with this. Once Mega Gengar's set has been revealed, its impact is drastically reduced, while Mega Diancie's impact remains fairly consistent. However, Mega Gengar's impact on teambuilding and before its set has been revealed is more than enough to make up for this. The biggest asset of Mega Gengar by far is how it's arguably the most unsafe offensive Pokemon for Imposter to ever be on, which makes scouting sets that much harder when you consider how it can hit most of the metagame for at least neutral damage with both of its STABs.
A- -> A
Disagree, it still requires lots and lots of team support to properly work, almost mandates imposter to properly scout the team and it's absolutely destroyed by counters, often without counterplay; the most iconic being Mold Breaker Pursuit, but I sometimes run sand stream and Shed dies to it because pads > googles.
BH as a metagame almost mandates heavily rewards (edit: fixed wording) Imposter - When you're building a team, the question you should be asking yourself is "Why do I not need Imposter on this team?" because Imposter is just so good. Mandating Imposter is hardly a consequence, because odds are you should be running it anyways. Mold Breaker Pursuit is heavily uncommon in the metagame, at the moment. Residual weather is fair, but also uncommon beyond Mega Tyranitar. The usage of Sand Stream Mega Tyranitar when compared to the entire metagame is 3.485251038% - Hardly common. You also bring up how it's destroyed by counters. What Pokemon isn't destroyed by counters? If a Pokemon has a counter in the metagame, it's going to be destroyed by it, but as far as counters go I'd only say Mold Breaker Mega Gengar and Giratina reliably counter it. Granted, Giratina is fairly omnipresent, and that's a credit to its own right, but Shedinja is able to ruin almost any other Pokemon in the metagame. The ones it can't ruin it has teammates for, and those are a fairly limited number in itself. If Mold Breaker Pursuit was more common, I think I'd agree with you or even nominate it for a drop. This is because Mold Breaker Pursuit absolutely kills teams built around Shedinja, as it can target the core the team is built around. However, at the moment, I definitely believe Shedinja is worthy of being an A rank threat.

e: also drop deoxys-speed holy fukk
 
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Why is Mega Gengar being nominated for a drop? The best counter is RegenVest Yveltal, and the second best "counter", Primal Kyogre, struggles to answer sets such as Normalize QD. Between its Specs Wallbreaker sets and Mold Breaker setup sweeper sets, anything else that tries to answer Mega Gengar is going to have a difficult time. Normalize Mega Gengar's impact in teambuilding is similar to that of Shedinja - You need a check to it. However, unlike Shedinja, it combines this asset with a myriad of other sets which further restrict its checks in practice, as with Shedinja, Giratina, an omnipresent Pokemon anyways, is more than sufficient in order to provide a switchin to Shedinja. Stuff like hazards, which are also common, are very good for checking Shedinja. The Sungeist Geyser category of moves has good uses other than checking Shedinja. Sure, we can get into Moldy Pursuit, but that's a specialized option and one I'd argue isn't needed on a team to beat Shedinja. On the other hand, Normalize Mega Gengar mandates RegenVest Yveltal, which checks almost always, or RegenVest Primal Kyogre, which can lose to Quiver Dance. Other options such as Dialga, Mega Audino, or Mega Tyranitar all struggle to check Mega Gengar's other sets. You can use Unaware variants of the two previous Pokemon, but they also fail to answer the rising Specs Wallbreaker sets.

In addition, Mega Gengar's impact in game before its set has been revealed is very outstanding. Its impact, again, is something I would compare to Shed - You want to keep its check alive, because you don't want to be swept by Normalize Quiver Dance or Normalize Shell Smash. Whether it's another set? That's irrelevant. You can't even tell what set it is off team preview because almost every Mega Gengar set ever is self Imposterproof, and Specs sets can be Imposterproofed by Pokemon like your own Imposter. It is true that once its set is revealed, it's a lot easier to deal with and puts in less work -- but that's not where its impact is. Its impact is before the set has been revealed and at the teambuilder level, both levels where it excels in impacting the game.

One thing I neglected to mention earlier was offensively checking Mega Gengar with -ate and Triage. The reason I neglected to mention this is because Dazzling is also a Mega Gengar set, so simply relying on priority won't help you very much. In addition, these Pokemon that check Mega Gengar with priority are very easily worn down.

I don't think Mega Gengar should drop. Between the impact it has on the aforementioned levels of BH, the lack of splashability of its best counter and second best counter, as well as its second best counter and other checks losing to its myriad of other sets, I think it's just fine in A+. If Shedinja is rising to A, then Mega Gengar, a Pokemon which arguably has much, much more of an impact both at the teambuilder level and in game, should definitely not share the rank. Yesterday in Discord, we were talking about Mega Diancie having more of an impact in game than Mega Gengar - I agree with this. Once Mega Gengar's set has been revealed, its impact is drastically reduced, while Mega Diancie's impact remains fairly consistent. However, Mega Gengar's impact on teambuilding and before its set has been revealed is more than enough to make up for this. The biggest asset of Mega Gengar by far is how it's arguably the most unsafe offensive Pokemon for Imposter to ever be on, which makes scouting sets that much harder when you consider how it can hit most of the metagame for at least neutral damage with both of its STABs.


BH as a metagame almost mandates Imposter - When you're building a team, the question you should be asking yourself is "Why do I not need Imposter on this team?" because Imposter is just so good. Mandating Imposter is hardly a consequence, because odds are you should be running it anyways. Mold Breaker Pursuit is heavily uncommon in the metagame, at the moment. Residual weather is fair, but also uncommon beyond Mega Tyranitar. The usage of Sand Stream Mega Tyranitar when compared to the entire metagame is 3.485251038% - Hardly common. You also bring up how it's destroyed by counters. What Pokemon isn't destroyed by counters? If a Pokemon has a counter in the metagame, it's going to be destroyed by it, but as far as counters go I'd only say Mold Breaker Mega Gengar and Giratina reliably counter it. Granted, Giratina is fairly omnipresent, and that's a credit to its own right, but Shedinja is able to ruin almost any other Pokemon in the metagame. The ones it can't ruin it has teammates for, and those are a fairly limited number in itself. If Mold Breaker Pursuit was more common, I think I'd agree with you or even nominate it for a drop. This is because Mold Breaker Pursuit absolutely kills teams built around Shedinja, as it can target the core the team is built around. However, at the moment, I definitely believe Shedinja is worthy of being an A rank threat.

e: also drop deoxys-speed holy fukk
For the shed thing, the sets I mentioned as "absolutely destroy" are described that way because Shed cannot even switch out. Imagine Dazzling Regigigas vs standard Triage Mray. Mray can nothing but switchout, but at least it gets to switch out. In the shed vs Mold Breaker Pursuit, shed cannot even switchout; there's 0 counterplay. Same for sand; shed can die before acting. I meant that unlike other mons, shed has many hard counters (weather, teravolt pursuit, mold breaking moves blah blah, we know 'em) that sometimes do not offer counterplay.
 
VR update opinions

MMX a > a+: Definitely. It has no true counter, and any one of its sets can 2hKO a good chunk of hte meta. Weaknesses are easily covered by 1 or 2 teammates too.
Xern a- > A: agree, PH and MB sets are extremely good due to Core immunity and very solid stats so it's not passive
groudon-p A- > a: disagree, Defensive/tank set still requires a fair amount of team support to succeed, and is rather matchup reliant. Offensive set requires consdierable prep lategame if matchup is neutral or bad.
Shedinja a- > a: disagree same as pdon
Mega gengar a+ > a: disagree, it can lure its counters with the correct set without sacrificing its great stab combo. For example Choice Specs Adapt can 2hKO AV Pogre after Sludge Bomb poison. Shell Smash setup is still formidable. Other niche sets are still useable too.
Regi/slaking a > a-: agree, physical walls blanket check it well enough for the most part, though they can sometimes surprise counters with other sets like Shell Smash or Drum.
Audino-mega a- > b+: agree, too easily chipped down/2hkoed by things with even just Stealth Rock up
a- >b+: disagree, lower to b- because mostly outclassed by necro-dm
Arceus B > B+: Agree: now with the Imposter type-change mechanic it can easily improof itself which used to be a big stumbling block for non-ph sets.
Chansey b > b+: agree. FC is great, Unaware can counter Triage Mega Ray even with spore.
Ultra necrosma b->c-: agree It is only c rank in my eyes as it does nothing that MMY can't do, and is slower than both Mewtwos and mgar, so it can't face them 1v1 without a speed boost
Mega metagross ur > d: agree, regen scarf is a solid check to many fast mons including Mega Diancie, MMY and Mega Gengar with Spectral Thief, slowly chips them down. Total shit against defensive mons though, and gives Imposter free recovery. Don't bother running simple smash + Metagrossite though the set is improof which is nice.
Banette ur >d: great Choice Band wallbreaker
Lunala c > ur: this mon sucks
 

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For the shed thing, the sets I mentioned as "absolutely destroy" are described that way because Shed cannot even switch out. Imagine Dazzling Regigigas vs standard Triage Mray. Mray can nothing but switchout, but at least it gets to switch out. In the shed vs Mold Breaker Pursuit, shed cannot even switchout; there's 0 counterplay. Same for sand; shed can die before acting. I meant that unlike other mons, shed has many hard counters (weather, teravolt pursuit, mold breaking moves blah blah, we know 'em) that sometimes do not offer counterplay.
i feel like you're focusing too much on shed's weaknesses here and not enough on its strengths. first off, let's imagine a game where you're vs shed and don't have any sure counters (sand, mold breaker pursuit, rocks that always beat their bouncer):

chances are, shed can come in on at least a couple mons. even if you do have giratina, it needs to have bounce, otherwise shed gets up rocks for good eventually. shed can even come in on gira sets that can't hurt it, waste a couple pp, and uturn out.

if you have an offensive mon walled by shed, it does nothing. you can't even force recovery to get momentum like aerilate ray vs steels; instead, your opponent gets the momentum and they can uturn to whoever they want.

even if your mon has a mold breaker move, you still need momentum to get him in, which is a tough task vs shed teams. besides, with so much already covered the shed user can simply opt to run mons that cover common sunsteel/moongeist/photon users (i ran regenvest ogre + prank gira for example). shed teams use the "divide and conquer" mentality by walling what they can with shed and bringing specialized walls to beat breakers; thanks to shed + imposter + bounce utterly shutting down most stuff, these specialized walls can usually be kept quite healthy.

probably the biggest strength of shed is its ability to actually win games. if you only have 1 mon, like say mega diancie, that can break giratina, you can still beat giratina. but if you have 1 mon that can break shed, then he just continuously uturns around with that unfairly low speed until you eventually lose.

the only time i would call shed a liability or waste of a slot is if you have reliable hazards or sand. mold breaker pursuit doesn't stop shed from clicking uturn, and common users like gar are too frail to keep it up for long (and struggle to double in without significant risk). all shed has to do here is not carelessly hard switch in on uturn users.

yeah, shed has some bad matchups. sand + imposter, while very uncommon, is super lame to deal with and you have to take advantage of your opponent's habits. mold breaker pursuit + sleep is also dangerous at times. hazards can also win (with my shed squad, the plan vs rocks pdon is literally to keep in magearna to deny rocks and outpressure with mmy; keeping rocks off is this important). but shed's ability to utterly shut down so much while still offering utility for its team makes it more than deserving of a rise in my opinion. we still need rank definitions though

now here's the obligatory deo s to ur nom you all wanted

deoxys s has been on the vr for this whole gen despite not receiving any tour usage outside of the mans who lose r1 in bh open. for a while i just dismissed this as an oversight, but now that none of my unmons got in while it remains in c rank, i think it's time to get this mon out of here.

POINT #1: deo s has only ever seen use as a suicide lead
despite all of rumors's big talk about using deo s for purposes such as sporing mmy and using prankster to "out prioritize" other prank users (??????), none of them have ever seen any significant use. the only one i see is the low ladder special.

POINT #2: suicide leads are bad
i'm not convinced that suicide leads are completely unviable yet, because i'm relatively unfamiliar with the hyper offense builds on which they usually see use. that being said, suicide leads are bad simply because of the fact that other mold breaker users are generally better at keeping up hazards throughout the match. i can only see them working on extremely specific builds.

POINT #3: deoxys s is a bad suicide lead
this is the point that i think was the only thing keeping this mon ranked, but it's just not true-- even among the very specific, niche category of suicide leads, deoxys s is simply not a good option. this is mostly due to a single factor: its predictability.

hyper offense teams thrive on confusing opponents and restricting information about their sets, and deoxys s doesn't help with this at all. as soon as you see it in team preview, you know what it can do, you know that it will probably lead, you know what kind of team you're up against, and you have 150 seconds to make a plan to stop deoxys s from getting hazards.

this is why if i was going to use hyper offense, i'd use a better suicide lead. phero, bee, scept, and aero are other fast mons that have actual use in the meta so you can at least confuse your opponent. mmy itself is a great lead. you can even get more unpredictable and use slower mons like arceus, giratina, mega gengar, mmx, and mega diancie. all of these mons have alternative uses, and with them you can effectively trick and counterlead your opponent, something you could never hope to do with deoxys s.

RISE THE HUSK UNRANK NOODLE MAN FREE THE UNMONS
 
fwiw shell smashing bannettite bannette also exists, so even if 'bannette' as a whole was to be ranked i dont even know if that should be kept separate
 
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POINT #1: deo s has only ever seen use as a suicide lead
despite all of rumors's big talk about using deo s for purposes such as sporing mmy and using prankster to "out prioritize" other prank users (??????), none of them have ever seen any significant use. the only one i see is the low ladder special.

I wouldn't really call it "big talk" since I'm pretty hard on Deo-S myself. It's a terrible suicide lead, I'll agree endlessly with that. At one time it was the lead meta, yeah, but those days are years gone. It has some niches in checking fast, offensive threats without needing speed control or Prankster. It also has a niche of shutting down Prankster users by using Prankster Taunt/Encore itself or to surprise Trick a Lagging Tail. It's also a really fast pivot if your team is using those to try to control a match (although its U-Turn does crap damage). And that's... pretty much it. It has uses, but it's niche and rather hard to fit onto a team. It really ought to drop out of C to D at the very least. If we had a rank for niche mons, like Manectric, Blacephelon, and Giratina-O, below D, then I'd vote for it to go there instead.

I don't wholly support a drop to UR since it can be really good on the right teams. But I don't wholly oppose it either since most teams don't want it around. Most of my "big talk" is more just trying to clarify what it's actually able to do decently.
 
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MMX_____|______A_________|________A+_______|
Agree, self explanatory
PDon |______A-________|________A_________|
Agree
Shed_____|______A-________|________A_________|
Agree
Gigas |______A________|________A-________|
Agree, checks are on most teams and it struggles to do work in those match ups.
Dino_____|______A-________|________B+_______|
Disagree, its still the best pivot and with a lot of Giratina Dino has plenty of opportunity to gain momentum.
Solg_____|______A-________|________B+_______|
Agree its pretty bad.
Arc_____ |______B_________|________B+_______|
Agree, Soundproof is a solid -ate check and is a very strong attacker by itself. PH is alright too.
Blob_____|______B+________|________B+_______|
Abstain, rise is fine too imo.
Ttar _____|_______B+_______|________B________|
Disagree, its offensive sets are very solid and compared to yvel it isn't weak to rocks and has a nice fire resistance. Lower speed is nice too.
Ho-oh___|______C_________|________B-________|
Agree
Cress __|______C_________|________B-________|
Agree
Gyara____|_______B________|________B-________|
Agree
Ultra ____|_______B-_______|________C_________|
Disagree, compared to MMY it has a secondary Dragon typing which is very helpful against ZygTina to force them out and do a million to Dialga. Doesn't deserve C.
Gross____|______UR________|_______D_________|
Agree
Stak ____|______UR________|_______D_________|
Agree
Deo-a___|_______C________|________D_________|
Agree
Zera_____|______UR________|______UR________|
Disagree, thing is very fast and its PH set is decent and offensive checking mons along with potentially very annoying to switch in defensively is pretty good.

Please UR Deo-S and Rise Bee, Bee is really solid as an attacker because its strong U-turn is so good at gaining momentum on offensive mons like Mewtwo and stuff.
 
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Would like to add in some more thoughts here. Might be a long post but there's some things that I feel need to be said.

BH as a metagame almost mandates heavily rewards (edit: fixed wording) Imposter - When you're building a team, the question you should be asking yourself is "Why do I not need Imposter on this team?" because Imposter is just so good. Mandating Imposter is hardly a consequence, because odds are you should be running it anyways. Mold Breaker Pursuit is heavily uncommon in the metagame, at the moment. Residual weather is fair, but also uncommon beyond Mega Tyranitar. The usage of Sand Stream Mega Tyranitar when compared to the entire metagame is 3.485251038% - Hardly common. You also bring up how it's destroyed by counters. What Pokemon isn't destroyed by counters? If a Pokemon has a counter in the metagame, it's going to be destroyed by it, but as far as counters go I'd only say Mold Breaker Mega Gengar and Giratina reliably counter it. Granted, Giratina is fairly omnipresent, and that's a credit to its own right, but Shedinja is able to ruin almost any other Pokemon in the metagame. The ones it can't ruin it has teammates for, and those are a fairly limited number in itself. If Mold Breaker Pursuit was more common, I think I'd agree with you or even nominate it for a drop. This is because Mold Breaker Pursuit absolutely kills teams built around Shedinja, as it can target the core the team is built around. However, at the moment, I definitely believe Shedinja is worthy of being an A rank threat.
I honestly hard disagree with the notion that Imposter is required. It most certainly is not required. I have dozens upon dozens of successful teams that do not use Imposter. I don't think this is a remotely comparable thing. You aren't guaranteed to lose if you don't have Imposter. You are guaranteed to lose if you do not have a Shedinja check. As for your main point, somehow you failed to mention Sungeist Geyser. Almost all of the offensive sets I've seen utilize this in some manner and those that don't usually use Spore or Kiss which is an annoyance for Shedinja as it doesn't run Safety Goggles like it did in Gen 6. You're right in that Moldy Pursuit and Weather aren't as common but Sunsteel Strike, Moongeist Beam, and Photon Geyser are so ridiculously common it isn't even funny. There are multiple sets where I would forgo usual coverage for these moves like on -Ates solely because of their utility. It isn't uncommon to see me using Sunsteel on Mega Diancie, for example.

The strangest thing is that I actually AGREE with you. But not for the reasons you mentioned. I think Shed doesn't deserve to rise solely because of the omnipresence of these moves. Unlike in Gen 6 where it was an incredible wall and wallbreaker, in Gen 7, it's just an incredible wallbreaker. It's starting to not wall pretty much anything nowadays.

and the second best "counter", Primal Kyogre, struggles to answer sets such as Normalize QD.
RegenVest Ogre pretty much hard counters Mega Gengar regardless of its moveset. You're probably thinking of its offensive sets but 180 base Special Attack is still strong enough to threaten Mega Gengar with Revelation Dance and Spectral Thief threatens the setup variants. Even the Special Defense boosts aren't enough to keep Primal Kyogre from 3HKOing it with Revelation Dance. I don't think setup + Secret Sword does significant damage to RegenVest Ogre without multiple boosts anyways.

It only got a couple mentions recently, but I thought that Beedrill was due for a rise. The banded Tough Claws set is very popular right now and can pick its coverage moves/what walls it, which include Ice Hammer, Close Combat, V-Create, Bolt Strike, Sunsteel Strike, or even more. Putting loads of pressure on one of the best offensive mons in the game (MMY) is also a huge perk. It still doesn't like most Giratina sets, but this one still does a lot of damage, meaning opposing Giratina have to stay healthy to avoid a KO on the predicted switch.

252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Beedrill-Mega Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 300-354 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The fact that Mega Beedrill wasn't even mentioned is ludicrous. It definitely deserves a rise more than anything else besides maybe Mega Mewtwo X.

deoxys s has been on the vr for this whole gen despite not receiving any tour usage outside of the mans who lose r1 in bh open. for a while i just dismissed this as an oversight, but now that none of my unmons got in while it remains in c rank, i think it's time to get this mon out of here.

POINT #1: deo s has only ever seen use as a suicide lead
despite all of rumors's big talk about using deo s for purposes such as sporing mmy and using prankster to "out prioritize" other prank users (??????), none of them have ever seen any significant use. the only one i see is the low ladder special.

POINT #2: suicide leads are bad
i'm not convinced that suicide leads are completely unviable yet, because i'm relatively unfamiliar with the hyper offense builds on which they usually see use. that being said, suicide leads are bad simply because of the fact that other mold breaker users are generally better at keeping up hazards throughout the match. i can only see them working on extremely specific builds.

POINT #3: deoxys s is a bad suicide lead
this is the point that i think was the only thing keeping this mon ranked, but it's just not true-- even among the very specific, niche category of suicide leads, deoxys s is simply not a good option. this is mostly due to a single factor: its predictability.
The problem with Deoxys-S isn't that it is bad. It's just the most predictable Pokemon there is. You see it in team preview and you automatically know right then and there what set it will have because it offers nothing other than Speed. It's bulk is shit as iirc Kyurem-B and Mega Ray both OHKO with FakeSpeed. It's offenses are more passive than Giratina and Zygarde-C. Even its typing is goddamn awful. A passive Pokemon with bad defenses that's weak to Bug? You're just asking for mons to U-turn out, get Deoxys-S at 1 HP, then gain momentum by forcing it out with something that has priority. It's only niche... is Speed. Nothing more. Nothing less. If you have a Rapid Spin Pokemon, you automatically hard counter it as well.

There are better Pokemon that can set Rocks more efficiently without having to dedicate their whole set towards it. I mean. Just look at Deo-S. It occasionally runs Spikes. But nothing more than that other than some support moves like Taunt or occasionally Spore. Most Mold Breaker Pokemon can run Stealth Rock fine. Pokemon like Mega Diancie which usually force switches can run Stealth Rock. Imposter can be used to imposter-proof a special attacker (Chansey is a very good special wall that can improof a lot of stuff and is extremely underutilized) and can run Spikes. There's also Ho-Oh. None of these Pokemon are particularly predictable by any means.

But I have a better way to summarize Deo-S: It's a one-dimensional Pokemon in a metagame filled with multi-dimensional Pokemon.
 
Would like to add in some more thoughts here. Might be a long post but there's some things that I feel need to be said.



I honestly hard disagree with the notion that Imposter is required. It most certainly is not required. I have dozens upon dozens of successful teams that do not use Imposter. I don't think this is a remotely comparable thing. You aren't guaranteed to lose if you don't have Imposter. You are guaranteed to lose if you do not have a Shedinja check. As for your main point, somehow you failed to mention Sungeist Geyser. Almost all of the offensive sets I've seen utilize this in some manner and those that don't usually use Spore or Kiss which is an annoyance for Shedinja as it doesn't run Safety Goggles like it did in Gen 6. You're right in that Moldy Pursuit and Weather aren't as common but Sunsteel Strike, Moongeist Beam, and Photon Geyser are so ridiculously common it isn't even funny. There are multiple sets where I would forgo usual coverage for these moves like on -Ates solely because of their utility. It isn't uncommon to see me using Sunsteel on Mega Diancie, for example.

The strangest thing is that I actually AGREE with you. But not for the reasons you mentioned. I think Shed doesn't deserve to rise solely because of the omnipresence of these moves. Unlike in Gen 6 where it was an incredible wall and wallbreaker, in Gen 7, it's just an incredible wallbreaker. It's starting to not wall pretty much anything nowadays.



RegenVest Ogre pretty much hard counters Mega Gengar regardless of its moveset. You're probably thinking of its offensive sets but 180 base Special Attack is still strong enough to threaten Mega Gengar with Revelation Dance and Spectral Thief threatens the setup variants. Even the Special Defense boosts aren't enough to keep Primal Kyogre from 3HKOing it with Revelation Dance. I don't think setup + Secret Sword does significant damage to RegenVest Ogre without multiple boosts anyways.



The fact that Mega Beedrill wasn't even mentioned is ludicrous. It definitely deserves a rise more than anything else besides maybe Mega Mewtwo X.



The problem with Deoxys-S isn't that it is bad. It's just the most predictable Pokemon there is. You see it in team preview and you automatically know right then and there what set it will have because it offers nothing other than Speed. It's bulk is shit as iirc Kyurem-B and Mega Ray both OHKO with FakeSpeed. It's offenses are more passive than Giratina and Zygarde-C. Even its typing is goddamn awful. A passive Pokemon with bad defenses that's weak to Bug? You're just asking for mons to U-turn out, get Deoxys-S at 1 HP, then gain momentum by forcing it out with something that has priority. It's only niche... is Speed. Nothing more. Nothing less. If you have a Rapid Spin Pokemon, you automatically hard counter it as well.

There are better Pokemon that can set Rocks more efficiently without having to dedicate their whole set towards it. I mean. Just look at Deo-S. It occasionally runs Spikes. But nothing more than that other than some support moves like Taunt or occasionally Spore. Most Mold Breaker Pokemon can run Stealth Rock fine. Pokemon like Mega Diancie which usually force switches can run Stealth Rock. Imposter can be used to imposter-proof a special attacker (Chansey is a very good special wall that can improof a lot of stuff and is extremely underutilized) and can run Spikes. There's also Ho-Oh. None of these Pokemon are particularly predictable by any means.

But I have a better way to summarize Deo-S: It's a one-dimensional Pokemon in a metagame filled with multi-dimensional Pokemon.
I agree about Deoxys-S.

I’ve actually started using Deoxys-A for a Mold Breaker lead with Stealth Rocks, Reversal, Psycho Boost and Toxic Spikes / V-Create.

It provides hazards but has the offensive presence to threaten Steels like Registeel and Dialga that attempt to Rapid Spin after their lead pivots with U-Turn. Next turn - Reversal for the KO. Or V-Create for Celesteela/Aegislash.

Not the greatest but it at least gets the job done and has some use after hazards, in threatening some of the typical Rapid Spin or Defoggers.

Deoxys-S just seems harder to justify.

Here is an example against Soundproofed getting multiple KOs and winning by keeping the offensive presence.:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-852115688

I also agree on Bannette getting added to the D rankings. Lately I have been using it to great success, serving as an Imposterproof Belly Drummer that KOs Prankster Registeel and just continues to sweep entire teams:
Against Shedinja Headinja
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-848189938
Against others:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-851737890
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-848423059

Choice Band seems slightly harder to justify over Marowak-Alola but I see that it could have its advantages in not being weak to Stealth Rocks and moderately higher Attack.
 
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I also agree on Bannette getting added to the D rankings. Lately I have been using it to great success, serving as an Imposterproof Belly Drummer that KOs Prankster Registeel and just continues to sweep entire teams:
Against Shedinja Headinja
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-848189938
Against others:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-851737890
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-848423059

Choice Band seems slightly harder to justify over Marowak-Alola but I see that it could have its advantages in not being weak to Stealth Rocks and moderately higher Attack.
This set seems pretty cool, but like the Belly Drum Slaking, its also walled by Unaware mons. I haven't done any calcs to see what it might miss out on, but wouldn't Mold Breaker be an alternative ability to Tough Claws? That way it is still self improof but isn't dead weight against things like Unaware Yveltal.

Edit: I guess you miss out on the 25% chance to OHKO +def Registeel without Tough Claws, but I'm not sure if I would count on that OHKO either.
 
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