BH Balanced Hackmons Central Resources

[Rumors]

Not to be rude or anything, but not 100% sure I understand your point. Are you saying Arceus should not be listed as a Fur Coat user? Or are you just saying that comparing to Chansey was a bad comparison?

 

[cityscapes]

i dont think fc arceus should be listed.

like sure, it has more speed, attack, and physical bulk than chansey, but...what are you even walling?

first off, most defensive mons can recover on arceus. boomburst and spectral don't threaten anything outside of like slowbro. taunt is nice, but a majority of the defensive mons in the meta can recover on it through prankster outpacing taunt, magic bounce bouncing it back, or ph/regen working despite its use. you're only really beating stuff like fc chans and ff steels, and even then you risk metal burst and nuzzle/others.

but more importantly, fc arceus is mediocre at countering most offensive threats. you lose in the long run to ph regi because he keeps putting you to sleep and leftovers get knocked off. you lose to ph xern because he qds on the switch, arceus can be broken easily with a bit of luck, and you can't threaten to kill back (only force out with spectral). you can't even switch into timid sash triage ray because he can sleep you, and if he tail glows triage oblivion wing can 2hko after spectral (plus you have to play taunt mind games vs spore). normalize gar gets a qd up on you before you can taunt so if arceus is your norm gar check, it pretty much gets a kill every time. special contrary users 2hko on the switch and even if they don't you can't kill back with anything.

physical wallbreakers? cb mmx 2hkos with both stabs. kartana just clicks sunsteel for 85 and takes 60 from boomburst. you lose to all drummers. pdon smashes you with +2 v create. blaziken effortlessly 2hkos. all ate users kill you with boomburst.

yeah fc arceus can beat a bunch of mons 1v1, but when it comes to switching in on stuff, it really doesn't offer much defensive utility. its lack of offensive pressure even makes it hard to justify as a stallbreaker. because of this, i don't think it's worth using on any good team right now.

 

[cityscapes]

sorry for the double post but it's been 2 weeks (and still no vr update ) so here's an unpost for you guys

zeraora, buzzwole, and mega banette ur -> d

i'll go over these one by one.

zeraora

STARBOI (Zeraora) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive / Hasty Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Knock Off
- Ice Beam
- Spore

a lot of people have told me that they don't really get how zeraora works, so i'll explain.

ph zera is basically that mon that you can switch in on pretty much any relatively passive mon and regain momentum with. similar to ph mmx, zera can take stuff like revdances reasonably well thanks to its usable bulk. good defensive typing means as long as they don't have thousand waves you're good, and it doesn't have mmx's annoying ghost/fairy weaknesses. perfect neutral coverage between plasma fists + ice beam means that despite its low attacking stats, it can still put in work offensively, easily 2hkoing ogre and celes and potentially winning vs registeel with the aid of spore.

the real good niche it has, though, is winning vs almost every fast offensive mon 1v1. obviously it outspeeds everything outside of phero/bee/mega aero. you can eat a lot of strong unboosted hits from full, like psycho boost from contrary mmy, (if hasty) earth power from sheer force after you knock lo, and (if naive) adapt itemless mmx cc. it's also bulky enough to reasonably withstand ate extreme speed:

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zeraora: 208-246 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

that might've been a bad explanation. fortunately though i have some replays here:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-824239193 vs skylake for a daily roomtour. his sleep resist was ph ogre (yeah orb got knocked but that didnt really matter) so zera put immense pressure on the team with spore and allowed banette to get in numerous times without having to make any super hard reads.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-817595699 vs greenheroes on ladder, i think this showcases zeraora's effectiveness against more offensive builds

mega banette

bowser's dank rave (Banette-Mega) @ Choice Band
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Sunsteel Strike
- Shadow Sneak / Ice Hammer

this thing pretty much has no switchins in the game. rn way too many teams (including mine :eyes:) have a generic special wall like fc chans or regenvest ogre as their ghost resist, which obviously doesn't work vs this set. close combat ohkos common ghost resists like ttar and arceus and notably 2hkos yveltal, which means you beat min speed variants. sunsteel kills audino and shed. ice hammer helps you beat zyg if you're not imposter proofing with yveltal, while shadow sneak is actually really cool for picking off random mmx/mmy/gars.

if marowak is ranked i dont see why this shouldnt be. it trades stab v create, steel/fairy resist, and no choice lock for more speed, no water/rock weakness, and more power (banette is about 20% stronger than tough claws marowak). imo it's a viable alternative and deserves to be ranked.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-826740052 i know this isnt a very serious team but i feel like it showcases banette's power

buzzwole

claviceps (Buzzwole) @ Fightinium Z / Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Low Kick
- Roost
- U-turn
- Core Enforcer / Defog

CTC's Dad (Buzzwole) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Low Kick / Core Enforcer
- Wish
- U-turn
- King's Shield

buzzwole is a really weird mon. it has terrible matchups vs many top tier mons like mmy, photon mmx, ph xern, diancie, and mray. that being said, it does have a solid niche as a "counter-counterpick", something that can handle many lower ranked/less used sets.

first off, it's one of the best dark resists in the game. i say best because no one really uses fighting types as dark resists, so people don't really carry coverage on their dark types outside of sunsteel and maybe a fighting move for imposter. as a result, even the poison heal set can take on dazzling smash ttar with unbroken sash:

+2 252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Power Trip (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 170-201 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal recovery

the fc set can also take on some scary cb breakers, like the rising tc no photon mmx, chomp, zekrom, and kyub:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Buzzwole: 144-171 (34.5 - 41%) -- 59.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Mewtwo-Mega-X Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 178-210 (42.6 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (yeah this is kinda sketchy but other moves are doing 25 max)

(if you're wondering what the ph set does, it kinda pivots around and stuff. ph also helps you handle ph regi better if you're into that.)

another thing i want to highlight is the great utility value of low kick. this move allows you to threaten slow steels that would normally uturn out for free, and it does big damage to ph regi. z low kick on the fc set can lure and pick off mons that think they're safe, notably ohkoing regigigas from full 3/4 of the time.

overall, i think buzzwole is a good d rank worthy mon. it's very niche, and it doesn't really work on ladder because they just spam the high ranked mons all the time, but it does have its place in the tour meta.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-826694081 AVOIDS THE 2HKO FROM NORMALIZE REGI VCREATE
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-826285339 stupid game but shows how fc just walls physical normal/dark types and threatens back with low kick
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-804807766 this game is also stupid but the ph set lives +6 regi espeed. if you keep losing to om! this is the boy you need

 

[Champion Leon]

A Technician Garchomp-Mega is a fine alternative to the Adaptability set for Garchomp-Mega, and I believe it deserves its place in the Setpedia.
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The set:

Technically Better (Garchomp-Mega) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Brave Nature
- Bonemerang
- Dual Chop
- Ice Shard / Frost Breathe / Storm Throw
- Bolt Strike

Technician Ice Shard vs Sceptile-Mega, Rayquaza-Mega, Garchomp-Mega, Zygarde-Complete, etc.:

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1HKOs -
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sceptile-Mega: 437-515 (127 - 149.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 364-432 (87.9 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Garchomp-Mega: 328-390 (78 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

2HKOs-
Ice Shard can be used after Zygarde-Complete has been weakened, or if Garchomp is Baton Passed +2 Attack, outspeeding Prankster Destiny Bond/Shore Up.
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zygarde-Complete: 322-380 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It can also be used to pick-off weakened threats like Aerodactyl-Mega, or Beedrill-Mega for a 2HKO:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 203-239 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Beedrill-Mega: 151-178 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Frost Breathe is an option over Ice Shard if you want a 1HKO on Zygarde without resorting to a single-use Z-item, and without risking -2 SpA when Draco Meteor hits a Steel switch-in. Further, Fairy-type switch-ins are hurt by Ice, but not Dragon, while if the foe has set Misty Terrain, all of your Dragon-type moves are halved, so Ice overall can end up dealing even more damage than your STAB Dragon moves

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252 SpA Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete on a critical hit: 593-702 (93.2 - 110.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Frost Breathe is also an option for bypassing Fur Coat, enemy + Defensive stat buffs, and - SpA nerfs due to Critical Hits ignoring all stat changes. For example, Zygarde may have used Spectral Thief to gain +Def or +SpD, Garchomp-Mega may have been targeted by Parting Shot, etc.

Bolt Strike means only Volt Absorb Celesteela isn't 1 or 2HKOed by any of Garchomp's moves, while securing 1HKOs vs the other defensive Flying or Water types

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252+ Atk Life Orb Garchomp-Mega Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados-Mega: 338-398 (85.7 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Garchomp-Mega Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 369-437 (80.9 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Garchomp-Mega Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 351-413 (88.1 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

*Storm Throw is an option for 1HKOing Regigigas, Ferrothorn, Arceus, and Slaking, and 2HKOing Volt Absorb Celesteela:

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252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas on a critical hit: 382-452 (90 - 106.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn on a critical hit: 338-398 (96 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus on a critical hit: 359-424 (80.8 - 95.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking on a critical hit: 406-478 (80.5 - 94.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela on a critical hit: 182-214 (45.7 - 53.7%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Like Frost Breathe, Storm Throw bypasses Defense boosts on the foe, and Attack nerfs on Garchomp-Mega.
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In comparing the main STAB options of Technician vs Adaptability keep the following numbers in perspective:

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1. Technician + STAB Bonemerang = 225 Base power V.S. Adaptability Precipice Blades = 240 Base power.
*Reasoning for Technician - Break past Substitutes, Focus Sash, and maintain higher accuracy.
**No revelant 1-2HKOs are lost from using Technician Bonemerang V.S. Adaptability Precipice Blades, as the damage difference is a mere 5% gap:

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252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 298-354 (67.1 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Garchomp-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 320-377 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

2. Technician Dual Chop = 180 V.S. Adaptability Dragon Hammer = 180
Reasoning for Technician - Break past Substitutes, and Focus Sash. Equal in power.

3. VS Zygarde - Technician Frost Breathe = 540 V.S. Adaptability Draco Meteor = 560 Base power.
Reasoning for Technician - Frost Breathe doesn’t lose power each turn and hits more than just Dragons super effectively (considering I suggest Bolt Strike, think of Fur Coat Yveltal, Fur Coat Lugia, etc.):

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252+ Atk Life Orb Garchomp-Mega Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Yveltal: 205-242 (44.9 - 53%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Yveltal on a critical hit: 291-343 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Garchomp-Mega Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Lugia: 148-177 (35.5 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Lugia on a critical hit: 211-250 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This Technician + Life Orb set > in damage V.S. Adaptability + Dragon Z-item in all but the Z-move, and thus Adaptability with Life Orb is a more fair set comparison.

The real benefits for the Technician set are-
1. Breaking Substitute and Sash with its multi-hitting STAB moves.
2. Priority with STAB equivalent, allowing it to pick off weak to Ice-type, or low HP faster threats.
3. Critical hit moves providing more coverage, while Technician boosted Frost Breathe still 1HKOs Zygarde without Draco Meteor.
4. Critical hit moves bypass all of the user's negative - Atk, and - SpA, while ignoring all of the foe's positive + Def and +SpD stat changes.
5. Electric/Ice (Technician Boosted Ice) coverage + STAB makes it very difficult for pretty much anything to switch in.

I hope this serves as a set that can accomplish most of the same purpose as the Adaptability set, while also differentiating itself by picking off faster threats and being less vulnerable to stat changes.

 

[Chessking345]

Adapt is better since STAB draco or scales or core smacks giratina which with prankster beats this set. It also smacks fc bro which walls this set as well.
Also tech dual chop is 120 bp you are probably better off running tc tantrum hammers filler.
Finally on adapt Arrows is a thing which this set can’t run viably.

Looking back at my ancient nominations I’m going to change one.
Cress to B+
It’s really good because it blanket checks both Mewtwos which is amazing. One of the very few switch ins to SF Mmy, can check band adapt mmx (prank has fast heal, regenvest just goes out), the advantage over bro is the much higher spd and no electric weakness which is great as bolt strike is pretty common rn. Prankster is obviously good and regenvest has crazy special def while not being lured by bolt strike against Kyogre.

 

[Champion Leon]

Adapt is better since STAB draco or scales or core smacks giratina which with prankster beats this set.

For my Garchomp set, I would probably just use Dual Chop on Giratina, and then use Ice Shard before it can Heal / Destiny Bond.

Dual Chop is at the point where it can set up Garchomp for success.

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 436-520 (86.5 - 103.1%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 146-174 (28.9 - 34.5%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO

Also Clanging Scales does less to Giratina than Dual Chop, mind you this is a +Def Giratina taking less from Clanging Scales:

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Garchomp-Mega Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 411-489 (81.5 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Core Enforcer breaks Prankster, but if they use Destiny Bond on the turn you use Core Enforcer, and you only have attacking moves, you would be forced to switch out if you don't want to sacrifice Garchomp-Mega. How does it really beat Prankster Giratina?

Draco Meteor may have already been used and lowered -SpA by 2 stages. We also consider that Giratina can use Prankster Destiny Bond, beating Garchomp-Mega. How does this beat Giratina? It ends in their tie at best. If you do switch out, they might use Dragon Tail (underspeeding) and rack up entry hazard damage. I don't see how your set gets the job done. If it has a Dragon Z-item, it is 1x use, meaning they can switch to a Fairy type and you are unable to reuse it.
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It also smacks fc bro which walls this set as well.

What about Soundproof blocking Clanging Scales? Couldn't we just use neither ability for overall damage comparisons? Also, if they have Misty Surge teammates, Dragon moves are cut in half.

For Slowbro-Mega, Bolt Strike is a clean 2HKO, not too far off from Clanging Scales against Bold natured Slowbro-Mega:

252+ Atk Life Orb Garchomp-Mega Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Garchomp-Mega Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 268-317 (68 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Slowbro is Calm, then Bolt Strike does more:

252+ Atk Life Orb Garchomp-Mega Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowbro-Mega: 255-302 (64.7 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Garchomp-Mega Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbro-Mega: 247-291 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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Finally on adapt Arrows is a thing which this set can’t run viably.

For Thousand Arrows, Celesteela is hit neutrally on the first hit, while Bolt Strike can be a 1HKO surprise move. They can switch out Celesteela once they see you have Thousand Arrows, with Bolt Strike they just get knocked out.

For Thousand Arrows, besides Celesteela, only the rare Ho-oh is a Flying-type weak to Ground, that people use. Adaptability Thousand Arrows = 180 with STAB, while Bonemerang is 225 Base Power. STAB (Adaptability/Technician) Dragon Hits at 180 Base Power after STAB, so unless a Flying-Steel or Fairy is present, you would hit for the same base power with your Dragon-type move. At that point, use Bolt Strike on a Flying-type, or use Ice moves for a faster Flying type that is part-Dragon (Rayquaza-Mega)... Thousand Arrows means you hit everything, but it doesn't mean you hit everything harder.
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Also tech dual chop is 120 bp you are probably better off running tc tantrum hammers filler.

For Tough Claws, you have to Run High Horsepower for the ability to kick in, only making it about as strong as Precipice Blades without an ability. Then if you use Tectonic Rage, you miss out on Life Orb since you have to run Groundium-Z, and Tough Claws doesn't boost Tectonic Rage unless the base move itself is contact, and at that point you are substituting Life Orb with Tough Claws for a 1-time use base power move (which they could predict and switch to a resist/Immune), and then you have basically a useless item.

To use Zygarde-Complete as target for an example (obviously Dragon moves are preferred, just for damage examples) using Tectonic Rage on even Adaptability Precipice Blades:
252+ Atk Adaptability Garchomp-Mega Tectonic Rage (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 350-414 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 268-320 (42.1 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

But the next turn, you only deal
252+ Atk Adaptability Garchomp-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 222-262 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 68.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Most people would use the Dragon Z-item for the high base power from Draco Meteor... The Setpedia doesn't list Groundium-Z as a slashed item option.

Since Adaptability, and Tough Claws Dragon Hammer are = to Technician Dual Chop; it doesn't have an advantage.

*I appreciate you trying to help. Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[MAMP]

some noms:

mmx a -> a+: mmx is a legitimate contender for s rank, so i think placing it in a does it a massive disservice. it's one of the scariest and most versatile wallbreakers in the tier — mmx is so hard to prep for bc it can run so many different sets with very different counters and its bulk and speed make it very difficult to check offensively. to me it is undoubtedly one of the best mons in the tier currently and i think it is easily on par with the mons in a+

shedinja a- -> a/a+: shedinja is really underrated atm i feel. there are very few pokemon in the tier that place a greater restriction on teambuilding than shed. it just does so much in one teamslot — shed is a phenomenal wall, a terrifying wallbreaker, an incredible pivot, and it just wins some matchups single-handedly. its frailty and the team support it necessitates are notable flaws ofc, but i think they are often overstated and they are far outweighed by shedinja's many, many strengths

gigas/slaking a -> a-: these two are good but very predictable and it feels like every team is really well prepped for them atm. they just feel a bit outclassed by other ph sweepers and i dont really think they're quite on the same level as the other stuff in a rank rn

solgaleo a- -> b+/b: solgaleo being a tier above dusk-mane is pretty nonsensical atm. solgaleo's bulk is only marginally better, and dusk-mane has the benefit of lower speed, better attack (2hkos aud with anchor), and more viable offensive sets, making it more unpredictable. solgaleo's better speed can be an advantage, but at that point it faces competition from mega metagross. solgaleo almost never shows up in high level play nowadays and the metagame just doesn't feel kind to it. i think a drop for this mon is long overdue

mega aerodactyl c-> b-: mega aero does a whole lot of cool stuff. its strongest set i feel is the cb tough claws set with like ascent/cc/uturn/ice, which just does so much cool stuff: outspeeds and ohkos mmx, mmy, gengar, scept while also having the power to 2hko tina with stab ascent. unlike other comparable superfast physical attackers like mosa and the bee, aero has the typing and bulk to take common priority moves; aero comfortably lives +3 modest lo owing from triage ray and ohkos it in return with ice hammer, and it can live stuff like mdiancie fakespeed. aero matches up very well against the current metagame i feel; it's difficult for many teams to wall and it offers defensive utility by checking a lot of common offensive threats (did u know it outspeeds +1 pogre and does like 90% with ascent?). from my experience with it, it feels a step above the rest of c rank atm

mega metagross ur -> c/d: big gross is an awkward mon that has always struggled to find a niche, but a 700 bst steel type kinda has to be at least somewhat viable. the scarf regen set that has been popping up on ladder recently is a really solid pivot that can serve as a pretty reliable offensive switch-in to -ates and various mmy sets. it also has some decent offensive sets that function as a faster but slightly weaker dusk mane, or a bulkier but weaker kartana. gross feels pretty underexplored currently and im sure there are other good gross sets yet to be discovered. i definitely think it's at least as viable as all the stuff in d rank currently and on par with a lot of the dudes in c

 

[Champion Leon]

some noms

View attachment 147843mmx a -> a+: mmx is a legitimate contender for s rank, so i think placing it in a does it a massive disservice. it's one of the scariest and most versatile wallbreakers in the tier — mmx is so hard to prep for bc it can run so many different sets with very different counters and its bulk and speed make it very difficult to check offensively. to me it is undoubtedly one of the best mons in the tier currently and i think it is easily on par with the mons in a+

View attachment 147844shedinja a- -> a/a+: shedinja is really underrated atm i feel. there are very few pokemon in the tier that place a greater restriction on teambuilding than shed. it just does so much in one teamslot — shed is a phenomenal wall, a terrifying wallbreaker, an incredible pivot, and it just wins some matchups single-handedly. its frailty and the team support it necessitates are notable flaws ofc, but i think they are often overstated and they are far outweighed by shedinja's many, many strengths

View attachment 147845View attachment 147846gigas/slaking a -> a-: these two are good but very predictable and it feels like every team is really well prepped for them atm. they just feel a bit outclassed by other ph sweepers and i dont really think they're quite on the same level as the other stuff in a rank rn

View attachment 147847solgaleo a- -> b+/b: solgaleo being a tier above dusk-mane is pretty nonsensical atm. solgaleo's bulk is only marginally better, and dusk-mane has the benefit of lower speed, better attack (2hkos aud with anchor), and more viable offensive sets, making it more unpredictable. solgaleo's better speed can be an advantage, but at that point it faces competition from mega metagross. solgaleo almost never shows up in high level play nowadays and the metagame just doesn't feel kind to it. i think a drop for this mon is long overdue

View attachment 147848mega aerodactyl c-> b-: mega aero does a whole lot of cool stuff. its strongest set i feel is the cb tough claws set with like ascent/cc/uturn/ice, which just does so much cool stuff: outspeeds and ohkos mmx, mmy, gengar, scept while also having the power to 2hko tina with stab ascent. unlike other comparable superfast physical attackers like mosa and the bee, aero has the typing and bulk to take common priority moves; aero comfortably lives +3 modest lo owing from triage ray and ohkos it in return with ice hammer, and it can live stuff like mdiancie fakespeed. aero matches up very well against the current metagame i feel; it's difficult for many teams to wall and it offers defensive utility by checking a lot of common offensive threats (did u know it outspeeds +1 pogre and does like 90% with ascent?). from my experience with it, it feels a step above the rest of c rank atm

View attachment 147849mega metagross ur -> c/d: big gross is an awkward mon that has always struggled to find a niche, but a 700 bst steel type kinda has to be at least somewhat viable. the scarf regen set that has been popping up on ladder recently is a really solid pivot that can serve as a pretty reliable offensive switch-in to -ates and various mmy sets. it also has some decent offensive sets that function as a faster but slightly weaker dusk mane, or a bulkier but weaker kartana. gross feels pretty underexplored currently and im sure there are other good gross sets yet to be discovered. i definitely think it's at least as viable as all the stuff in d rank currently and on par with a lot of the dudes in c

I agree, I find that for the PHeal Normals listed, a slow Core Enforcer is their bane. Xerneas can block Core Enforcer, take hits thanks to the SpD boost, abuse Magma Storm to trap and set-up. Earth Power can be substituted over Spore or Magma Storm to hit Flash Fire foes, and seems self-sufficient, plus an Immunity to Dragon Tail doesn't hurt. With Knock Off team support, Spectral Thieves are Spored. Now, it appears more reliable than Slaking or Regigigas as a PHeal sweeper.

I think we should try and identify what makes Slaking and Regigigas different, and if they even out then pair them back together again, but I believe they are often treated as conjoined twins, rather than at least fraternal twins.

For example:
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 390-458 (91.9 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 390-458 (91.9 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 392-464 (92.4 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 344-408 (68.2 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 414-488 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 420-494 (83.3 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Regigas can survive Special Attacks more effectively, such as Focus Blast from no Guard Mewtwo-Mega-Y. I think we need to simply weigh the scale and verify which is more important.

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking: 476-562 (94.4 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Regigigas: 341-403 (80.4 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Chessking345]

FYI standard prank Tina runs Sap over DBond to reliably answer Band Adapt MMX and other physical wallbreakers.
Also Tech Dual Chop is 120 BP, which is unboosted Pblades, just pointing that out.
You aren’t using calcs with an item on Adapt set when comparing.
Btw not trying to pointing out everything but there are some stuff that are inaccurate.
Thanks for the reply, I meant horsepower mb
Ice Shard seems good enough for this to be unique ig

 

[cityscapes]

I think we should try and identify what makes Slaking and Regigigas different, and if they even out then pair them back together again, but I believe they are often treated as conjoined twins, rather than at least fraternal twins.

nah, i think they're really similar enough to pretty much always share a ranking unless an attacker that beats one but not the other becomes super popular, which it really hasn't.

besides, with both of them their viability stems more from how common their defensive checks are, not their offensive checks (which they don't really have after a shift gear boost). slaking and regigigas have the exact same defensive checks because their attack and speed are the same.

so yeah, slaking and regigigas are different in that some teams would prefer slaking and others would do better with regi, but i don't think they're really distinct mons in terms of viability. if slaking is a-, regigigas is a-, and so on.

 

[Champion Leon]

FYI standard prank Tina runs Sap over DBond to reliably answer Band Adapt MMX and other physical wallbreakers.
Also Tech Dual Chop is 120 BP, which is unboosted Pblades, just pointing that out.
You aren’t using calcs with an item on Adapt set when comparing.
Btw not trying to pointing out everything but there are some stuff that are inaccurate.
Thanks for the reply, I meant horsepower mb
Ice Shard seems good enough for this to be unique ig

1. If Giratina is using a + Def Nature, then even with Sap Sipper it would be 2HKOed:
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Garchomp-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina on a critical hit: 252-299 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

*The Setpedia only lists Safety Goggles as the item for Prankster sets, so it is to be assumed Prankster Giratina is not using Leftovers, in either case, Special Attacks are unaffected by Sap Sipper targeting Attack, further, Sap Sipper heals less per use, so it would eventually lose as Giratina can keep healing for less recovery.

2. Why are you pointing out that Dual Chop is 120 before STAB? It does the same as Adaptability Dragon Hammer, and slightly more than Tough Claws Dragon Hammer:
80 x 1.5 (Technician) = 120 + STAB = 180, which means it is the same as 90 x 2 (Adaptability) Dragon Hammer, and a bit stronger than Tough Claws 90 x 1.3 = 117 Base power.

I don't think I claimed Dual Chop was stronger than Precipice Blades, I did mention that Life Orb means it surpasses the non-Life Orb Adaptability set (Z-item) in damage, and stronger than a Z-move+regular move over 2 turns though.

3.This is not true, I was using an item for Adaptability:

With a Bold Nature
252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Garchomp-Mega Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 268-317 (68 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
See screenshot:

With a Calm nature: 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Garchomp-Mega Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbro-Mega: 247-291 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
See screenshot:

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Garchomp-Mega Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 411-489 (81.5 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
See screenshot:

The last 2 examples of Ground moves were assuming Groundium-Z as the held item, hence the point on Tectonic Rage.


Ice Shard

 

[Chessking345]

Wait what am I doing yeah ok ignore all that bar the prank Tina stuff.
Also support mamps noms.
Metagross is super cool since scarf regen is a solid contrary switch in as you eat any hit and uturn out, putting opponent in range for your imposter. It’s speed tier differentiates it from solg and ndm which is a pretty big plus for offensive support.

 

[Champion Leon]

nah, i think they're really similar enough to pretty much always share a ranking unless an attacker that beats one but not the other becomes super popular, which it really hasn't.

besides, with both of them their viability stems more from how common their defensive checks are, not their offensive checks (which they don't really have after a shift gear boost). slaking and regigigas have the exact same defensive checks because their attack and speed are the same.

so yeah, slaking and regigigas are different in that some teams would prefer slaking and others would do better with regi, but i don't think they're really distinct mons in terms of viability. if slaking is a-, regigigas is a-, and so on.

1. Aren't PHeal MMX, Contrarian MMX, and Pheromosa popular?

2. No offensive checks? What about Offensive Poison Heal Tyranitar, Triage Heracross-Mega, Shedinja, etc.? What about Focus Sash offensive threats? Calcs:

Hide

Even after boosts, Tyranitar isn't threatened:
+2 252+ Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 174-204 (43 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

+2 252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 315-372 (74.2 - 87.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rocks

+2 252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 337-397 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Since Tyranitar can boost Defense with Diamond Storm, Regigigas and Slaking are more threatened than Tyranitar, so if they Shift Gear together Tyranitar can mow them over.

252+ Atk Life Orb Triage Heracross-Mega Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 338-400 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Toxic Orb activates after it switches in, and then the recovery begins the following turn)

252+ Atk Shedinja Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 56-66 (13.2 - 15.5%) -- always KOing 12.5% + 1 HP Regigigas the turn after Endeavor
*Pursuit has the same base power on a switch.

Slaking is more secure against both priority threats
Heracross:
252+ Atk Life Orb Heracross-Mega Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 361-429 (71.6 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Shedinja:
252+ Atk Shedinja Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 59-70 (11.7 - 13.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (I made Slaking 64 HP for 1/8 total HP +1)
Plus many offensive sweepers carry Focus Sash, letting them survive after Regi/Slaking Attack, and then KO.

As for their Defensive checks, Defensive Poison Heal Tyranitar can withstand their attacks without even needing Unaware, and can threaten with Core Enforcer; Unaware Ferrothorn can take hits, not worry about Spore, and threaten with Anchor Shot + Core Enforcer as well.

I think the importance is knowing what other checks bring as attacks to the forefront to threaten Regi / Slaking with, oftentimes with Core Enforcer, it's timing the use of it so the Poison counter is high enough to KO the PHealer and that way they cannot switch out and bring it back in later. Pursuit can also be an option to trap them, such as with Shedinja.

Since one can take Special Attacks better and the other can take Attacks better, are they really that close to not have any worthwhile differences that make one a little better overall than the other?

 

[Chessking345]

Yes while MMX and other physical attackers exist, MMY also exist, and you have this case of which one I want where it depends on the team.
If your team is weak to a special attacker Gigas will work better than Slaking and vice versa for physical attackers.
Mega Heracross has like no usage and you can't guarantee a spore on the switch-in. Shed just gets Spored and Knocked and suddenly without Pads you die to a lot more stuff. Also rocks exist.
Focus Sash gets Spored, unless you roll a 1 turn sleep that is going to die.
But yes overall every team has an answer to Gigas now, even if it gets put to sleep as long as it lives Gigas usually can't break through, and this differentiates it from Xern, which has limited reliable answers. Bounce Comatose PH Misty Tina are all prevalent, Bounce and FC Steels wall, Tyranitar is a thing, Ferrothorn does a good job etc. It still is very reliable if your opponent doesn't have an answer but for now its deserving A- more (and same with Slaking)

 

[Champion Leon]

Proofread/accurate enough

You made a useful post, but omitted Safety Goggles Shedinja. I know Safety Pads can be used but they are not always used. Some Regi/Slaking use Spectral Thief over Knock Off as well.

It’s okay... I forgot to mention Kartana as a check, irregardless of set.
—————
If it helps, I’ll support Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)’s nomination for Bannette-Mega, to D-rank, but for a unique set.

Don’t Ban It! (Banette) @ Banettite
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Taunt / Sunsteel Strike
- Copycat / Sunsteel Strike
- Power Trip

Here is how it works:
Turn 1: You likely go second and use Shell Smash getting +4 Atk, SpA, Spe. Power Trip is 260 Base Power.

Turn 2: You Mega Evolve and gain Prankster, now you can Taunt Prankster Hazers, Sunsteel Strike against Unaware Audino-Mega (and secure 1HKOs on Shedinja, and Tyranitar-Mega), or use Power Trip for 1HKOing anything else.

Turn 3: You can use Copycat Power Trip (from last turn) if the foe sends in a Prankster Hazer this turn, or if they use a faster Scarf user (such as Scarf Gengar-Mega).

The reason for this set, besides outspeeding opposing Prankster, is that if they have Choice Scarf Imposter, (say they send it in after you KO something), you can time your Mega Evolution until they send it in, and then use Copycat with Prankster to outspeed their Non-Prankster Chansey. If they have Eviolite, then you gain more Speed from the Mega Evolution regardless, so you can outspeed without using Copycat.

12 Speed EVs makes it 169 Speed, which X 3 = 507, which outspeeds +Speed, Deoxys-S, while making it slow enough to underspeed Spectral Thief and Core Enforcer more often, and before cutting your Defenses.

Bannette can also be useful even if it is forced out, as a timed Prankster Copycat can allow it to hit a Pokémon that is weak to its own attacks (Precipice Blades V.S. Red Orb Groudon, STAB Spectral Thief V.S. MMX and Giratina, etc.) The best part is, if it does KO the foe (making their called Attack the last move used), it can use Copycat again repeatedly, allowing it to serve as a check in some scenarios.

Power Trip after Simple Shell Smash 1HKOs all resists (Dark and Fairy-types): Calcs -

Hide

Gyarados-Mega:

+4 252+ Atk Banette-Mega Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gyarados-Mega: 414-487 (105 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+4 252+ Atk Banette-Mega Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados-Mega: 377-444 (95.6 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO; guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
——————
Tyranitar-Mega:

+4 252+ Atk Banette-Mega Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 329-387 (81.4 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
—————
Yveltal:

+4 252+ Atk Banette-Mega Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Yveltal: 454-534 (99.5 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+4 252+ Atk Banette-Mega Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 414-487 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
—————
Audino-Mega:

+4 252+ Atk Banette-Mega Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Audino-Mega: 374-440 (91.2 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+4 252+ Atk Banette-Mega Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino-Mega: 340-400 (82.9 - 97.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
—————
Xerneas:

+4 252+ Atk Banette-Mega Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 838-988 (183.7 - 216.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+4 252+ Atk Banette-Mega Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Xerneas: 414-487 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Bannette KOs even the most durable walls, period:

+4 252+ Atk Banette-Mega Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 700-824 (110 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Unaware becomes the only hard-stop, unless they are weak to Sunsteel Strike (Audino-Mega).

This way, you don’t need 2 moveslots for Imprison + Haze to pair with Power Trip + Shell Smash, as Prankster Taunt after Simple Shell Smash outspeeds any other Prankster Hazers, all while being Imposterproof.

Bannette can 1HKO all non-Unaware switch-ins, period...

As for Fur Coat: Slowbro-Mega and Giratina basically negate their ability thanks to their weakness to Power Trip, Kyogre / Arceus / Chansey can’t survive, Audino-M loses to Sunsteel Strike, Tapu-Fini is nowhere to be seen, Defensive Zygarde / Gyarados-Mega are mostly Poison Heal or Unaware.

 

[MAMP]

so there's been a few things about the bh vr that have kinda annoyed me for a while, which i was reminded of when i was writing that nom post earlier. the big problem is that the ranks are not in any way defined. S rank, A rank, B rank etc don't intrinsically mean anything; they're just letters that can be interpreted however you please. this is a problem for a few reasons.

1. it makes the vr kinda unhelpful for newer players. a person just starting to get into bh might take a look at the vr to get a sense of what the best mons in the tier are, which pokemon are worth using, etc. with the ranks being completely undefined, it may be unclear to a new player how they should interpret the vr. how much better are the pokemon in A rank than the ones in B rank? are D rank pokemon worth using? without any sort of rank descriptions or definition, the vr is much less useful as an informational resource.
   
   
2. it makes it really hard to effectively argue to move pokemon around. because the ranks don't intrinsically mean anything, the only point you can reasonably make to change a pokemon's rank is something like 'i think its better than the other pokemon in its rank' or 'its as good as the pokemon in this rank', which doesn't really mean anything. so many of the debates in this thread about what rank pokemon should be in often ultimately just come down to different people having different conceptions of what the different ranks mean, which is really just not very productive. having the ranks actually be defined makes it possible to make a proper reasoned case for moving mons beyond 'i think mmx should be in a+ bc it is as good as gengar'
   
   
3. it makes it unclear what criteria the rankings are based on. the pokemon on the vr are ranked based on 'viability', but that's a very nebulous term that isn't actually defined anywhere. should we rank pokemon based on the strength of their best set, or should we consider all of their viable sets in aggregate? as an example, xerneas is ranked solely on the strength of the poison heal set, and it doesn't really have any other viable sets. to contrast, mega tyranitar has like half a dozen viable sets, but none of them are as good as xern's ph set individually. how highly should that versatility be weighed? on another note, to what extent should we consider team support? on a team built to fit it, shedinja is one of the strongest pokemon in the meta, but the support that it requires means that it only fits on a small number of teams. should shedinja be penalised on these rankings for that? these questions are pretty important to have a consensus on when it comes to making a viability ranking, and so defining the ranks in some way would help with this and make the whole thing feel a lot less arbitrary.

i'm proposing that we collectively come up with a set of rank descriptors to define what the ranks mean and lay out the criteria by which pokemon are ranked. something like what the vgc vr has, but with the descriptions tweaked to fit bh.

 

[Rumors]

Worth noting, we did have descriptions for the VR as of last gen at earliest. You can see them here. It'd be pretty trivial to reuse or tweak them.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

so there's been a few things about the bh vr that have kinda annoyed me for a while, which i was reminded of when i was writing that nom post earlier. the big problem is that the ranks are not in any way defined. S rank, A rank, B rank etc don't intrinsically mean anything; they're just letters that can be interpreted however you please. this is a problem for a few reasons.

1. it makes the vr kinda unhelpful for newer players. a person just starting to get into bh might take a look at the vr to get a sense of what the best mons in the tier are, which pokemon are worth using, etc. with the ranks being completely undefined, it may be unclear to a new player how they should interpret the vr. how much better are the pokemon in A rank than the ones in B rank? are D rank pokemon worth using? without any sort of rank descriptions or definition, the vr is much less useful as an informational resource.
   
   
2. it makes it really hard to effectively argue to move pokemon around. because the ranks don't intrinsically mean anything, the only point you can reasonably make to change a pokemon's rank is something like 'i think its better than the other pokemon in its rank' or 'its as good as the pokemon in this rank', which doesn't really mean anything. so many of the debates in this thread about what rank pokemon should be in often ultimately just come down to different people having different conceptions of what the different ranks mean, which is really just not very productive. having the ranks actually be defined makes it possible to make a proper reasoned case for moving mons beyond 'i think mmx should be in a+ bc it is as good as gengar'
   
   
3. it makes it unclear what criteria the rankings are based on. the pokemon on the vr are ranked based on 'viability', but that's a very nebulous term that isn't actually defined anywhere. should we rank pokemon based on the strength of their best set, or should we consider all of their viable sets in aggregate? as an example, xerneas is ranked solely on the strength of the poison heal set, and it doesn't really have any other viable sets. to contrast, mega tyranitar has like half a dozen viable sets, but none of them are as good as xern's ph set individually. how highly should that versatility be weighed? on another note, to what extent should we consider team support? on a team built to fit it, shedinja is one of the strongest pokemon in the meta, but the support that it requires means that it only fits on a small number of teams. should shedinja be penalised on these rankings for that? these questions are pretty important to have a consensus on when it comes to making a viability ranking, and so defining the ranks in some way would help with this and make the whole thing feel a lot less arbitrary.

i'm proposing that we collectively come up with a set of rank descriptors to define what the ranks mean and lay out the criteria by which pokemon are ranked. something like what the vgc vr has, but with the descriptions tweaked to fit bh.

I don't disagree that some kind of framework would be helpful, but I don't think rank descriptions are the best option for several reasons.

First off, BH is a diverse enough metagame that any kind of actual descriptor of importance would be either infeasably long or woefully inadequate. For instance, lets take a look at the current A+ rank:

Diancie-Mega

Giratina

Kyogre-Primal

Gengar-Mega

Registeel

All these mons are the best at what they do, so perhaps that might seem like a decent descriptor, but how does that mesh with shedinja or Kangaskhan or Kartana or Chansey or Kyurem-B being lower down? They aren't all equally splashable (something like Gengar is significantly less splashable than FC Chansey, for instance, despite the rank difference, and Gengar is also way less splashable than registeel), they aren't all critical to their build type...


Secondly, to take a step even further back from this, What's with the reductionist attitude towards "'I think its better than the other Pokemon in its rank?" Even with a descriptor, that doesn't solve this "problem," because said "problem" is intrinsic to the concept of a VR. No matter what your ranking metric is, they're designed to separate Pokemon into ranges of quality, and by reducing your own complex and highly adapted intuition and feel for "how good a Pokemon is" to a few sentences that fail to capture all the information you do, you're purposefully limiting your own effectiveness. Like, intuition is a good thing, and it's worth using when available, because people's brains are pretty good at implicit multi factor analysis if they can avoid major bias, while they're comparatively far worse at explicit comparative analysis.

I get the argument that it might shorten arguments, but I think it's pretty obvious that instead of discussing a Pokemon's merits badly, the annoying arguments under the new system would transform into definition disputes and picking apart word choice while the good arguments wouldn't change much.

 

[Champion Leon]

I don't disagree that some kind of framework would be helpful, but I don't think rank descriptions are the best option for several reasons.

First off, BH is a diverse enough metagame that any kind of actual descriptor of importance would be either infeasably long or woefully inadequate. For instance, lets take a look at the current A+ rank:

Diancie-Mega

Giratina

Kyogre-Primal

Gengar-Mega

Registeel

All these mons are the best at what they do, so perhaps that might seem like a decent descriptor, but how does that mesh with shedinja or Kangaskhan or Kartana or Chansey or Kyurem-B being lower down? They aren't all equally splashable (something like Gengar is significantly less splashable than FC Chansey, for instance, despite the rank difference, and Gengar is also way less splashable than registeel), they aren't all critical to their build type...


Secondly, to take a step even further back from this, What's with the reductionist attitude towards "'I think its better than the other Pokemon in its rank?" Even with a descriptor, that doesn't solve this "problem," because said "problem" is intrinsic to the concept of a VR. No matter what your ranking metric is, they're designed to separate Pokemon into ranges of quality, and by reducing your own complex and highly adapted intuition and feel for "how good a Pokemon is" to a few sentences that fail to capture all the information you do, you're purposefully limiting your own effectiveness. Like, intuition is a good thing, and it's worth using when available, because people's brains are pretty good at implicit multi factor analysis if they can avoid major bias, while they're comparatively far worse at explicit comparative analysis.

I get the argument that it might shorten arguments, but I think it's pretty obvious that instead of discussing a Pokemon's merits badly, the annoying arguments under the new system would transform into definition disputes and picking apart word choice while the good arguments wouldn't change much.

I think we should just have a common threats checklist:
[X] 1 Steel-Type on your team to resist -Ates, and many other common Attack types like Psychic.

[_] 1 Ghost-Type to stop Shedinja from using Endeavor, and block Rapid Spin.

[_] 1 Status absorber to handle Spore, etc. such as a Misty Surger, Poison Healer, Comatose, Magic Bouncer, and so on.

[_] 2 or less Pokémon on your team sharing a weakness to each type.

*Role compression also needs to be highlighted, as that alone is what makes niche Pokémon like Aegislash viable in the first place: a Ghost and a Steel Type.

TLDR: Create a Teambuilding Checklist of universally common things to prepare for, or at least to consider, so that way people are aware of why they are picking a Pokémon for their team.

This way people can think of it as a RMT checklist when looking at the VR rankings.

Alternatively, we could just expand the Role Compendium with a sentence beside the choices, without going through the entire VR list per set.

 

[Magii]

I think we should just have a common threats checklist:
[X] 1 Steel-Type on your team to resist -Ates, and many other common Attack types like Psychic.

[_] 1 Ghost-Type to stop Shedinja from using Endeavor, and block Rapid Spin.

[_] 1 Status absorber to handle Spore, etc. such as a Misty Surger, Poison Healer, Comatose, Magic Bouncer, and so on.

[_] 2 or less Pokémon on your team sharing a weakness to each type.

*Role compression also needs to be highlighted, as that alone is what makes niche Pokémon like Aegislash viable in the first place: a Ghost and a Steel Type.

TLDR: Create a Teambuilding Checklist of universally common things to prepare for, or at least to consider, so that way people are aware of why they are picking a Pokémon for their team.

This way people can think of it as a RMT checklist when looking at the VR rankings.

Alternatively, we could just expand the Role Compendium with a sentence beside the choices, without going through the entire VR list per set.

Doing that would be near impossible because in order to have a checklist for every archetype possible would defeat the purpose of adding it, which is to help out new players. The checklist would have to be extremely exhaustive to accomplish its goals, but then new players would most likely be confused on where to start. Also, factors of a good team are universal in some areas, but others are quite objective. What makes a good balance team to you (for example at least one unaware user; at most two defensive mons) could be different for me (2-3 defensive mons with prankster/mbounce/other). While balance is very clear cut (uses like 3 offensive/2defensive/imposter iirc), other archetypes like HO vary wildly. Within the blanket types of teams, there are subsets like ShedStall, Dual Regen Stall, Pressure Stall, etc. all being parts of stall.

Honestly I think that while the VR isn't in the best spot right now, there's no way* to add to it without adding things that would confuse newer players too. IDT it would accomplish that much. QT said it well.

Just my two cents; sorry it was late here when I wrote this if you can't understand my ramblings I can pm or smth
*realize i'm dumb and there's probably something I'm missing

 

[Rumors]

Radical idea that I just had. Feel free to shoot it down if its dumb or there's flaws I'm overlooking.

But if encompassing everything in VR descriptions is too difficult, what if we split the VR into an offensive VR and defensive VR? The qualities required for each would be much easier to narrow down and discrepencies, such as QT pointed out, Gengar not being as splashable as Registeel (and the same is really true for most offensive mons versus defensive in the upper tiers). It'd be a lot easier to sort mons into their correct tiers in such a situation, I think. And, as for Pokemon with offensive and defensive sets, it'd simply be ranked on both for its relevant sets. This could mean Pokemon being ranked at different tiers on the lists, like Pogre being ranked A defensive and B offensively (not a suggestion, just an example).

But yeah, this at least sounds good at a thought, sans the work it'd need to redo the tier lists and split them up and I know there's no precedent, AFAIK. But, is this a good idea or a terrible idea?

 

[Champion Leon]

Doing that would be near impossible because in order to have a checklist for every archetype possible would defeat the purpose of adding it, which is to help out new players. The checklist would have to be extremely exhaustive to accomplish its goals, but then new players would most likely be confused on where to start. Also, factors of a good team are universal in some areas, but others are quite objective. What makes a good balance team to you (for example at least one unaware user; at most two defensive mons) could be different for me (2-3 defensive mons with prankster/mbounce/other). While balance is very clear cut (uses like 3 offensive/2defensive/imposter iirc), other archetypes like HO vary wildly. Within the blanket types of teams, there are subsets like ShedStall, Dual Regen Stall, Pressure Stall, etc. all being parts of stall.

Honestly I think that while the VR isn't in the best spot right now, there's no way* to add to it without adding things that would confuse newer players too. IDT it would accomplish that much. QT said it well.

Just my two cents; sorry it was late here when I wrote this if you can't understand my ramblings I can pm or smth
*realize i'm dumb and there's probably something I'm missing

It wouldn’t be all subtypes, just the secure things teams always use, like Stealth Rock. Has any team not used Stealth Rock?

Further, I think my alternative approach for the Role Compendum is a good way to not bother with the VR rankings at all, as that can be seen as too complex.

Acknowledge reasons for the Pokémon options listed under the Role Compendum, so it’s clear when one stands out among the rest for your specific team build.

For example, a sentence stating when a Pokémon has a useful niche would be really helpful to uncommon Pokémon (like Tapu Fini in the Fur Coat section). This way you maximize all readers’ likelihood of knowing when to select a Pokémon over another (based on their team).

I think Offense Role Compendum Pokémon could be self-explanatory, I.e. using STABs, but Defensive ones (where you have to check and counter various opposing Offense movesets from the same Pokémon, or multiple Pokémon with a similar role), is a bigger priority, because you have to ensure the Defensive Pokémon selected cover as much as possible.

I think if we focus on the Role Compendum, which is already categorized for us, we can just add some details to that.

Rumors, maybe we can also use the Role Compendum as a way of tiering the Offensive, Defensive Pokemon, for example maybe a Pokémon is listed as a Defensive Pokémon for multiple abilities, and therefore should be ranked higher than something only listed as one (I.e. Zygarde-Complete V.S. Tapu Fini).

At the least, it could be a starting point for VR specific tiering, since the Role Compendum has been broken down into categories already (albeit Abilities, not Pokemon). Just a thought.

 

[Storm Eagle]

I'm surprised there still hasn't been any VR changes yet. I'm going to make some more nominations that I haven't made before.

C Rank -> UR
Unused in any capacity.

| 183 | Zubat | 0.01550% | 334 | 0.241% | 189 | 0.227% |
| 184 | Wailmer | 0.01548% | 105 | 0.076% | 75 | 0.090% |
| 185 | Lunala | 0.01499% | 874 | 0.631% | 570 | 0.684% |
| 186 | Kommo-o-Totem | 0.01497% | 55 | 0.040% | 30 | 0.036% |
| 187 | Dunsparce | 0.01491% | 312 | 0.225% | 92 | 0.110% |

Zubat and Wailmer literally have higher usage than Lunala does. This is at 1760 ratings for the month of November. Lunala has absolutely zero serious usage in this metagame and this is due to its awful typing combined with the fact that Mega Gengar and Mega Mewtwo Y both perform it as Ghost- and Psychic-types respectively. It's not particularly strong by any means and even if someone wanted to use Lunala, Dawn Wings would just outperform it as Dawn Wings has a higher Special Attack and a lower Speed which allows it to be a better setup mon. Remove Lunala from the rankings or at the very least replace it with Dawn Wings. Please. Lunala sucks compared to Dawn Wings.

| 68 | Necrozma-Dawn-Wings | 0.54414% | 1527 | 1.103% | 920 | 1.103% |

Dawn Wings has significantly higher usage anyways.

UR -> D Rank
A better version of Lunala as explained above. Giving it D Rank is being very generous considering its usage right now. We should start with D Rank and work our way up and see if its actually good enough to hold up to Lunala's current C Rank.

A+ Rank -> A
I honestly feel like Mega Gengar, while just as powerful as ever, as gotten somewhat less effective lately because more and more people have been bringing checks to it. Mega Gengar looks scary with its fast Speed and very high Special Attack, but it still has a lot of checks. Primal Kyogre stops Mega Gengar hard with most of its sets while unless Mega Gengar has Dazzling, it will often have difficulty dealing with most -ates. Mega Gengar has difficulty dealing with most RegenVest sets because they often carry Revelation Dance to beat its Normalize sets or Spectral Thief to beat the other sets. I would even go as far as to say some RegenVest sets can blanket counter Mega Gengar in the right scenario. Most special walls can beat it with ease provided they aren't weak to Ghost. Most of the threat of Mega Gengar comes from the fact that Normalize and its other sets have very different checks, but once you know what Mega Gengar set you're facing, Mega Gengar becomes a lot easier to handle.

I feel like other Pokemon that share its rankings set theirselves apart because there's no way to blanket check any of them. Even Mega Diancie threatens Steel-types with Precipice Blades on Pixilate and High Jump Kick or Mind Blown on Magic Guard.

B- Rank -> C
Zekrom has become increasingly disappointing as of late. Its sets on the SetPedia are heavily dated and are a genuine clusterfuck aside from the Galvanize set. Zekrom needs some attention pretty bad and it needs some new fresh sets like maybe a Choice Band Adaptability set for example. Mixed Adapt looks mediocre while Draco Plate setup and Refrigerate look like straight up trash. Zekrom is about the same level of gimmicky as Xurkitree to me right now and until it gets some of the attention it needs I honestly think it should be C Rank. Electric isn't a great type by itself and Zekrom only really utilizes its full potential with its Galvanize set which is a shame frankly because I think Zekrom could definitely be a better Pokemon than it currently is.

I don't think I'm going to make any more nominations until 2019, and definitely not until after the next VR change.

 

[cityscapes]

ok less unmons this time. also this was written before the tour game so it reflects my actual opinions in case u guys are feelin like u wanna call someone out

mega tyranitar b+ to b
ttar just isnt easy to build with rn. he has so many weaknesses to common things so when i build with defensive ttar i feel like i have to stack weaknesses no matter what. offensive ttar isnt that bad but isnt that good either because you lose to stuff like ph xern and zyg which is never good. smash is predictable and unreliable. ph mmx is rising and ttar just hates that mon. not a good choice

ferrothorn b to b- (or even c)
i think ferro has gotten a lot worse recently. it only checks a few things, like pixilate/mg mega diancie and ph xern, but even then it isn't a very reliable check to those because diancie can pick it off from like 70% (which isn't that hard because of its u-turn neutrality) and xern just puts it to sleep with lovely kiss anyway. additionally, its typing means you need another mon to check scary stuff like mray and kyub, and stacking another steel has potentially bad consequences. like ttar, teambuilding with this mon is hard yet it doesn't provide that much payoff.

mega gyarados b to b-
i havent seen mega gyarados in so long. regenvest dies to the things it's supposed to check (+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Gyarados-Mega: 306-362 (77.6 - 91.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock [so you die to overheat into fleur]). unaware is so easy to chip you might as well assume it's at like 75%. smash is inconsistent and bad. offensive ph is really the only set agreed to be good, but i can't even remember the last time i've seen it do anything. this mon is just not good.

ho-oh c to b-
this guy isn't too bad, he fits on more teams than you'd think and checks stuff like pixilate diancie and ph xern pretty well, and can sometimes even take on stuff like triage ray. pretty nice pick imo.

 

[Champion Leon]

I have a suggestion for the Zygarde Soundproof Setpedia.
Since many slow pivot Pokemon like Registeel, Audino-M, and Dusk Mane use U-turn to escape Anchor Shot, why not stall Perish Song turns and use Electrify? Not only is it spammable per turn (unlike Spiky Shield), but it will also protect you from any move a foe has, granted they move after you.

Considering most slow pivots minimize their Speed stat, this shouldn't be a problem, further, many Pokemon that try to use moves like Core Enforcer (also on minimized Speed Pokemon), will be blocked, allowing you to basically Anchor Shot, Perish Song, Electrify, Electrify, Electrify them until Perish Song KOs them. By blocking Core Enforcer, you also enable yourself to stay in and Perish trap the next foe.

My suggestion:

Zygarde-Complete @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Perish Song
- Shore Up
- Electrify

Since I am not using Parting Shot to slow pivot, I will outspeed U-turn and Core Enforcer opponents so Electrify can go first to prevent them from using it. Having Nuzzle support, and Sticky Webs support on your team only allows Zygarde to move first, so I suggest you add that to a teammate so you can use Zygarde later to Electrify them before they can act. This can also be a great PP stall tactic if the foe also has Soundproof, but you still want to trap and stall them.

Current Setpedia:

Zygarde-Complete @ Safety Goggles / Groundium Z
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Anchor Shot / Thousand Waves
- Perish Song
- Shore Up / Wish
- Parting Shot / Spiky Shield