BH Balanced Hackmons Central Resources

This is something I came across when reading the sets linked on the Viability rankings.

I noticed that on Comatose Giratina, one of its recommended moves was Entrainment. However, I would suggest not doing that, as it seems to be not working properly. To clarify: it seems that Comatose Entrainment doesn't work. Period. Regardless of who the target is.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-804495634

In case you're about to ask, no, this doesn't seem like it should happen. Bulbapedia has this to say:
As should be evident, since Comatose is not listed here, Comatose should not have impeded Entrainment.

Is it a bug on Showdown? Is Bulbapedia wrong? Who knows. My main point is that trying to use Entrainment when your ability is Comatose will not work, so the Viability sets is a bit misleading in a way. So I would recommend not giving your Comatose Giratina the move Entrainment, as despite what the sets on the Viability rankings may imply, the move will not work at all.

And this makes me ask: were the sets even tested in the first place before the writer recommended them? This bug(?) seems like something that should have been caught while the sets were being tested. But this tangent is largely secondary to my main point.

IDK how many people are going to read this (given that this BH metagame is a very thriving community with a huge total of 2.3 people actively playing it), but if you do read this, heed my warning.
 
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This is something I came across when reading the sets linked on the Viability rankings.

I noticed that on Comatose Giratina, one of its recommended moves was Entrainment. However, I would suggest not doing that, as it seems to be not working properly. To clarify: it seems that Comatose Entrainment doesn't work. Period. Regardless of who the target is.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-804495634

In case you're about to ask, no, this doesn't seem like it should happen. Bulbapedia has this to say:As should be evident, since Comatose is not listed here, Comatose should not have impeded Entrainment.

Is it a bug on Showdown? Is Bulbapedia wrong? Who knows. My main point is that trying to use Entrainment when your ability is Comatose will not work, so the Viability sets is a bit misleading in a way. So I would recommend not giving your Comatose Giratina the move Entrainment, as despite what the sets on the Viability rankings may imply, the move will not work at all.

And this makes me ask: were the sets even tested in the first place before the writer recommended them? This bug(?) seems like something that should have been caught while the sets were being tested. But this tangent is largely secondary to my main point.

IDK how many people are going to read this (given that this BH metagame is a very thriving community with a huge total of 2.3 people actively playing it), but if you do read this, heed my warning.
I think the way PS works is correct afaik and we were actually just talking about this last night, but even if it is a bug it's a very old one and we should be playing as if it's correct anyway.

I think it's my bad leaving a set with both comatose and entrainment as options but it's really annoying having to list the same set twice with one move option different, especially when it already has a lot of sets which are pretty similar. The issue comes from there being one huge giratina set with 7 abilities slashes and a million moves so when it got split up for clarity I didn't do the best job.

I'll think about how best to change it to remove confusion without adding even more sets unnecessarily and get some input from the discord. Thanks for pointing this out, it's easy to make small mistakes and it really helps having people give input on it (whether pointing out problems or suggesting addition).
 
I’m using a Rare Candy on this thread to Level it up with some new data from Bulbapedia, based on the new moves from Pokémon Let’s Go Eevee and Pikachu.
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https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pokémon:_Let's_Go,_Pikachu!_and_Let's_Go,_Eevee!

These moves will impact the metagame:

From Let’s Go Eevee -

1. Bouncy Bubble - Useful for Triage sets as a 90 Base Power Water Special Attack that heals half of the damage it deals. 100% accuracy.
*Kyogre with Triage, and Rayquaza with Triage can now have Giga Drain and Tail Glow for 3 strong enough Drain moves with their STAB.

2. Buzzy Buzz - Useful for non-No Guard Pokemon looking for a good Electric Attack to paralyze on Attack. (Nuzzle sucks and making contact triggers Rocky Helmet). 90 Base Power Special Attack that always Paralyzes. 100% accuracy.
*While not listed as a Sound-based Move (Splishy Splash is listed as a Drain Move), I assume, like Bug Buzz, it will eventually be listed as one. In this case, it can bypass Substitute, always paralyzing, and will be blocked by Soundproof, while making Electric, Ground, and Comatose Pokemon useful for not getting paralyzed.

3.Sizzly Slide - 90 Base Power Physical Attack, always Burns. 100% accuracy. While not listed as a Contact move in the move description, in the move official explanation, it does say it charges at the foe. Similar to Flare Blitz, I view this as a future Contact move, which means it is a slightly weaker, and Rocky Helmet vulnerable version of Sacred Fire, although it’s a 100% chance to burn and does almost as much damage.
*I could view this for Pokémon that need coverage moves with utility, rather than Raw power, such as Tough Claws Pheromosa.
————
These moves do not have their damage, nor their effect listed, and thus will not be worthy of conversation until further release.

From Let’s Go Pikachu -

4. Splashy Splash

5. Floaty Fall
————
These moves are considered Partner Power attacks, based on friendship. They must be charged, but based on current mechanics in the core series games, charging could mean a Solar Beam 2 turn effect. It also bases the damage base power of the move on friendship, which sounds like the effect of Return/Frustration attacks.

6. Veevee Volley

7. Pika Papow
————
Now, I’m having it use a Z-Parting Shot to exit and fully heal this comment section, in order to pass the conversation back to the active users. A Z-move can only be used once... make it count everyone.
 
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Incorporating those moves might also mean the removal of a few hundred Pokemon from the meta if they're not coded into LGPE. While a LGPE BH could be kinda neat, it'd be vastly, VASTLY different from USUM. (And Mewtwo better be a friggin' quick ban if it's just 151 + Alolans, Megas, and Meltan).

It's always possible they may patch USUM to allow those moves to be transferred over but... that feels unlikely considering Game Freak's history of doing such.
 
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Unfortunately, Rumors is right. I am excited to see these moves appear, and I hope they stay for Generation 8, but there's no guarantee we'll ever get LGPE added to showdown. Magneton and Meltan are the only Steel-types, while Alolan Raticate and Alolan Muk are the only Dark-types... Not to mention, LGPE seems to not have the capability to use Hold Items, and Pokemon Abilities appear to be gone, meaning this probably is a truly hardcore remake of Pokemon Yellow. Mega Evolutions strangely appear, but considering you can choose to Mega Evolve Charizard into either X or Y on the spot, I don't think that's an indication of Hold Items appearing.

LGPE won't be implemented into Showdown at all in any significant manner due to the dullness of the metagame. LGBH frankly sounds like it will be consistent of nothing but Mega Mewtwo Y and Alolan Muk, so it won't be implemented at all...

Frankly, I am interested in the Fire-type Nuzzle that OM! is talking about, but we're going to have to wait quite a while to be able to use it, if at all.
 
Haven't seen any sort of VR updates in a while, so I figure I'd give my opinions here on some nominations. A lot of nominations, in fact.

Rises

↔Switch Rank↔

Solgaleo as of recently has been becoming increasingly less appealing to me while Necrozma-DM is showing it's true strengths in BH. Necrozma-DM has marginally less bulk, but it underspeeds Zygarde-C and base 90s and it has a notably higher Attack stat than Solgaleo. It's BellyBurden set can outspeed Deoxys-S while it's defensive sets are hardly any different than Solgaleo's at all. It's offensive sets are more viable than Solgaleo's offensive sets while it's defensive sets can underspeed key targets that Solgaleo is incapable of doing. Necrozma-DM has shown it's increasingly deserving of an A Rank while Solgaleo is not.

A → A+ Rank
Is there a reason Mega Mewtwo X has went down in rank to begin with? It's becoming increasingly clear that this Pokemon is worthy of A+ rank as of currently, and may even be capable of an S rank in the future. Mega Mewtwo X is slower than Mega Mewtwo Y, but Mega Mewtwo X is significantly harder to wall due to it's additional Fighting-type, and it's a Pokemon that truly cannot be hard countered by any Pokemon. Even Mega Slowbro, something people consistently consider to be a hard counter to Mega Mewtwo X has trouble.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gets blown away by Choice Band variants with Tinted Lens, and doesn't like taking Knock Off either. If you have Stealth Rock up, MMX can get a guaranteed 2HKO with a Jolly nature too. Even without rocks it's almost a 70% chance to 2HKO so Mega Slowbro doesn't have a chance there. It gets fucked up by Boomburst from -Ate variants if it's not . Without Core Enforcer Poison Heal MMX hard counters Mega Slowbro itself and even with Core Enforcer it can get it's Safety Goggles knocked off and put to sleep with Spore.

+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 236-278 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Power Trip (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 382-450 (96.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

I never mentioned DazzleSmash either.

A- → A Rank
Might as well try again. Nothing has really changed my opinions from the last time, but I still think it's worthy of rising. It's defensive set is underrated as being able to spread burns with Sacred Fire lets it annoy bulky Dragon-types especially if it gets Stealth Rock up as the passive damage adds up after a while. Most people look at Groudon because of its insane STAB 180 base Attack V-Create, but its defensive sets have impressive bulk and support potential for other, more offensive teammates.

It's offensive sets are also notoriously hard to wall, and it's Ground/Fire typing makes it basically impossible for Steel-types to wall unless you explicitly allow for it (Primordial Sea Celesteela). For a metagame with as many defensive Steel-types as this, Red Orb Groudon is a godsend after it Primal Reverts. If your opponent has more than one Steel-type, they may even lose at team preview.

Also, Red Orb Groudon single-handedly hard counters any and ALL weather teams. No sand, no rain, no sun, and no hail. I've put people using weather teams to a hard stop solely by using Primal Groudon.

D → C Rank
D Ranked mons feel like incredibly gimmicky or borderline unviable Pokemon in the tier, and I hardly feel like Mega Beedrill belongs in that group. Mega Beedrill may not use its Poison STAB much, but it still remains to be a powerful Bug-type that can OHKO Mega Mewtwo Y consistently unlike Pheromosa. Pheromosa only has a Choice Band set right now in the SetPedia but I did suggest for it to get a Poison Heal set for the SetPedia as Pheromosa can perform quite well when using an offensive support set. As for Mega Beedrill, it can serve as both a strong offensive Tough Claws wallbreaker and as a Dazzling lure that can OHKO many different -Ates.

Mega Beedrill holds up well not only as an anti-offense Pokemon, but it is quite a fine mon when used as offensive glue as it can threaten a surprisingly good amount of targets depending on its moveset.

Drops

B → B- Rank
Mega Sceptile is becoming increasingly more mediocre on ladder. Because of motherlove, there is a dozen or more people on any given day using his team on ladder which has three Mega Sceptiles, probably because some people legitimately think it's an S-tier Pokemon non-sarcastically. Due to this, there have been a lot more people using Mega Sceptile checks as of recently. Mega Sceptile has an okay base 145 Special Attack. Let me recite, it's okay, not good nor bad. Just okay. The main appeal of Mega Sceptile is that it's ridiculously fast in any given scenario. One of the main problems with it is that its defenses... are really bad. They aren't okay, they're flat out bad. Being a Dragon-type with only 70/75/85 defenses really hinders it, and because of this Mega Sceptile finds itself having trouble switching into a lot of things with is only instigated by it's weakness to Bug or more specifically, U-turn.

Mega Sceptile has been showing an increasingly useful niche as of recently, and that's serving as an anti-offense mon with Dazzling. It loses to every single -Ate except for Galvanize and even then Zekrom still threatens it with Dragon Hammer so it can't switch in on Zekrom either. Dazzling lets it beat Mega Diancie with Seed Flare or Leaf Storm while Draco Meteor nukes the rest of them considering most mainstream -Ates are Dragon-type with the exception of Mega Mewtwo X who uses a relatively uncommon Pixilate/Refrigerate set. The problem is that its other sets are usually too weak to do much without an offensive item, yet it also finds itself wanting a Focus Sash a lot of the time. Grass isn't a good type in Balanced Hackmons in general, neither defensively nor offensively, so for the most part Mega Sceptile finds itself competing as a fast Dragon-type. Mega Sceptile frustrates me as I don't consider it a Pokemon that can consistently beat Mega Mewtwo Y despite outspeeding it as Mega Sceptile can only 2HKO it with its strongest sets while Mega Mewtwo Y can OHKO it with any set it uses, usually with Fairy-type coverage (which again pushes the notion that Focus Sash is required on Mega Sceptile).

To put it more simply, Mega Sceptile is a mon that looks good on paper but is disappointing in practice. I don't consider it worse than Mega Beedrill or other faster-than-MMY mons at anti-offense as its Dragon-typing really helps it, though. But whenever I've used Mega Sceptile, I usually had the most success using it as anti-offense.

(Attack, not Speed) C → D-Rank
Deoxys-Attack is bordering on shitmon status. It's worse than both Mega forms of Mewtwo at every way except for Speed. Problem is, Deoxys-Attack can't even hit as hard as them because Focus Sash is literally the only viable item on any of its sets. It can switch into nothing and requires Defog support due to its horrid bulk. It can serve as a mediocre anti-offense Pokemon but even then you're pushing it as both Pheromosa/Mega Beedrill and Mega Sceptile have merits over Deoxys-Attack such as having a strong U-turn or strong fast Dragon STAB. Fast Psychic-type STAB isn't something that is explicitly needed in this metagame. Deoxys-Attack's only merit right now is being able to check other anti-offense Pokemon due to its high speed, but it doesn't even outspeed Pheromosa without setting up so it can only really check Mega Sceptile, Aerodactyl, and Beedrill.

Also, it's impossible to self-improof Deoxys-A. Any time Imposter Chansey comes in, it's automatically forced out or ends up getting knocked out. If you try to add a Deoxys-A improof to your team, you'll usually make your Deoxys-A set worse than it already is because Contrary hits pretty much anything decently hard while DazzleSmash usually breaks through a lot of walls with Stored Power or Power Trip, so coverage needs to be gutted to easily improof Deoxys-A, which makes it even worse.

I've already said it once, I should re-iterate my point here: Deoxys-A is worse than both forms of Mega Mewtwo in every way except for Speed. There is basically never a point where I would want to use Deoxys over Mega Mewtwo X or Y at any given time. It performs worse than them, and despite trying to get Deoxys-Attack to work multiple times, I just can't ignore its blatant weaknesses. By picking Deoxys-Attack, I actively feel like I'm picking a worse version of Pokemon that already exist in the meta.

D → UR
Mega Ampharos is quickly losing relevance in the tier. Some people try to use it as a Triage Pokemon because of Parabolic Charge, but Parabolic Charge is terribly weak. Apparently the VR says it uses Prankster and Galvanize, but even those sets are seen few and far between. Searching for sets, Galvanize appears to utilize a self-improof Trick Room set and I wouldn't doubt it's good in Trick Room, but then you have to consider the viability of Trick Room in a meta where half or more of the Pokemon already run minimum Speed to begin with. Searching the OM Discord, I can't even find a single Prankster set which is troubling. The only mention of it is when Akios used it against someone and that's it.

Usually, slow Speed is a strength with Pokemon in BH, but it serves to be a weakness for Mega Ampharos as it's much more easily checked. Mega Ampharos has an impressive Special Attack stat, but it finds difficulty using it without getting checked easily. I've tried it once or twice before, but every single time I found myself wanting to use Zekrom because of its very slow Speed...

(non-Red Orb/Primal) D → UR
There is basically no point where I'd say Groudon is viable any more. It is nothing more than an unmon in my eyes as I can't even think of a single scenario where it's useful other than to improof something. Mega Ampharos has its strengths but Groudon deserves to be UR even moreso. Every single time I have seen someone use Groudon in their team, it was always the weakest link in the team and every single time I've faced it, it was largely nonthreatening in any particular manner. But considering I've seen it <10 times in the past six months, it's stretching it to say that Groudon even has a presence in the meta at all also unlike Mega Ampharos. For comparison, I've seen Reshiram, Normalize Marshadow, Nihilego, Stakataka, and Mega Scizor used more individually than Groudon, all of which are currently UR. It doesn't even have a SetPedia set and most people don't even know how to use it. I've managed to feel threatened by pretty much every single D-Rank Pokemon at one point except for Groudon. Like, if we're talking strictly about Ground-types here, both Zygarde-Complete and Mega Swampert perform better as both Fur Coat and Soundproof Pokemon, the latter being particularly good if you're explicitly trying to improof an Electric-type of some sort.

Simply put, Red Orb Groudon is a great Pokemon while Groudon is not. Groudon should only be used with the Red Orb at this point. The stat boost and the additional Fire-typing is just too important to pass up for some niche abilities which other Pokemon can perform better. I wish I was exaggerating about Groudon, but I'm being perfectly honest when I say I've never seen someone have success with it. Say what you want about mons like Reshiram, Stakataka, or Nihilego, but at least when they are used they can work well under the right circumstances. Most people don't even know the right circumstances to use Groudon to begin with other than as an improof for something, which other Pokemon can do that job better.

I was considering nomming some mons like Arceus, Hoopa-U, and Ho-Oh, but I already have a bunch of nominations and I'm so-so on those Pokemon to begin with.
 
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Searching the OM Discord, I can't even find a single Prankster set which is troubling. The only mention of it is when Akios used it against someone and that's it.
This is the prankster set. I don't think it is as good as it used to be, but it can be hard to deal with if used right.

Ampharos-Mega @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Core Enforcer
- Copycat
- Substitute
- Volt Switch / Destiny Bond
 
While I support a Deo-A drop (I think it really should have never gone above D to begin with, the CFZ meta aside way back when), I ought to point out that correct Imposterproofing for Deo-A does not use teammates, except for hazard removal. You minimize Deo-A's bulk, slap on a Sash, and when Chansey shows up, you have a 100% chance to OHKO even Eviolite variants with the correct move even if it moves first. And if you go first? Then you'll probably get to take down an extra opponent in the right circumstances.

Of course, the amount of team support you need to protect Deo-A from every possible source of chip damage and item removal is quite a bit still, so it's really one of those "better on paper" things since you need to set up like... half your team just to support Deo-A to begin with.
 

morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Why on earth would you run Tinted Mmx when its own STAB (fighting) already hits the resists of its other STAB (psychic) for neutral damage at worst in most scenarios (steel and dark) and vice versa? Like literally the only typing that resists both psychic and fighting is psychic which isn’t a common defensive typing used in the meta anyway. Running Tinted also means that you won’t be able to bypass the common Mmx checks (Giratina and Zygarde) that easily anymore, neither of which resist any of Mmx’s STABs ironically enough (note that for the context of Tinted Lens I am not considering an immunity to be in the same category as a resistance for obvious reasons) which means that running Tinted vs them is equivalent to running no ability.
 
Why on earth would you run Tinted Mmx when its own STAB (fighting) already hits the resists of its other STAB (psychic) for neutral damage at worst in most scenarios (steel and dark) and vice versa? Like literally the only typing that resists both psychic and fighting is psychic which isn’t a common defensive typing used in the meta anyway. Running Tinted also means that you won’t be able to bypass the common Mmx checks (Giratina and Zygarde) that easily anymore, neither of which resist any of Mmx’s STABs ironically enough (note that for the context of Tinted Lens I am not considering an immunity to be in the same category as a resistance for obvious reasons) which means that running Tinted vs them is equivalent to running no ability.
Who cares? Even if it's not used as much as Adaptability, it's still a set that's used by other people, and is relevant to the context against Mega Slowbro. Bulky Psychic- and Ghost-types do appear semi-frequently in the meta solely because they're good at checking (or more specifically, improofing) Mega Mewtwo X amongst other things. The mindset that 'bulky Psychic-types aren't common' is exactly why Mega Mewtwo X is so good to begin with, almost no one on ladder brings good checks for it, and thus it ends up shitting on a ton of stuff because of how hard it is to check.

I do agree with you on one thing though, Psychic- and Fighting-type STABs are insane. People say that 140 Base Speed makes Mega Mewtwo Y one of the best Pokemon, but having an extra 50% damage with Fighting-type moves alongside not being weak to Dark- and Bug-type attacks is extremely useful for an offensive Psychic-type. If we're looking at Mega Mewtwo X as a Fighting-type rather than a Psychic-type, then Mega Mewtwo X pretty much makes any other Fighting-type look bad compared to it. You can't say this about virtually any other Pokemon. Mega Lucario was used at one point, but is now considered an unmon. Mega Blaziken is used as a strong Fire-type rather than a strong Fighting-type.

Mega Mewtwo X definitely deserves to be A+ rank easily, and I'm being genuinely honest in that I feel like it could legitimately have a spot in S rank at one point. I was baffled seeing it go down to A rank to begin with. Mega Mewtwo X is one of the strongest Pokemon in BH as its versatility is second only to Mega Rayquaza, it has the bulk of Mega Rayquaza with the offensive strength of Mega Mewtwo Y (except physically, not specially), and most importantly of all it has a nearly unwallable offensive typing as at least Mega Rayquaza is usually checked by Steel-types, namely Flash Fire variants which can't be hit by V-create. These three things encouraged me to nominate Mega Mewtwo X to A+ rank, and I wouldn't be surprised if I nominated it for S rank at some point in the future. I genuinely believe that Mega Mewtwo X is easily one of the best Pokemon in Balanced Hackmons at the moment.
 

morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Who cares? Even if it's not used as much as Adaptability, it's still a set that's used by other people, and is relevant to the context against Mega Slowbro. Bulky Psychic- and Ghost-types do appear semi-frequently in the meta solely because they're good at checking (or more specifically, improofing) Mega Mewtwo X amongst other things. The mindset that 'bulky Psychic-types aren't common' is exactly why Mega Mewtwo X is so good to begin with, almost no one on ladder brings good checks for it, and thus it ends up shitting on a ton of stuff because of how hard it is to check.
The point I'm making is that it's not relevant to the context of Mega Slowbro because running Tinted Lens on Mmx means it will no longer be able to break the walls that it was supposed to be able to break in the first place. Running Tinted on Mmx is extremely sub-optimal because you're giving up so much for so little in return. To put it in context, even running Banded Dazzling or TC Mmx would be better than running Tinted, and even then Adapt is better in most cases. Not to mention that even with Tinted Lens and Choice Band, Mmx still can't even scratch FC Megabro. Arguing that you could run Tinted Mmx to beat Megabro is like arguing that you could run Pixilate on Mega Rayquaza over Aerilate just so Mega Tyranitar doesn't wall you...in both cases the sets are outclassed by other options that can do the same thing and much more and in both cases you lose much more than you gain from changing the ability (losing a huge amount of power in exchange for being able to KO a check or two that you probably could've beaten with a coverage move anyway).

Once again, bringing up Ghost types in an argument about Tinted Lens isn't a bright idea since it only strengthens my argument that Tinted Lens is sub-optimal as immunities do not care about Tinted Lens (or any other boosting ability for the type that they are immune to for that matter). Yes, Giratina is run frequently in the meta but running Tinted on Mmx isn't going to help you one bit in beating it.

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with your opinion that Mmx's position on the VR should be changed, I'm just pointing out that the argument you used to justify it is weak at best and irrelevant at worst. You could have literally said that Mmx could run Bolt Strike on its Adapt set to bypass Mega Slowbro and that would've been a good argument, but instead you decided to bring up a set that I personally have never seen on the ladder or on any tour (I wonder why) to try to justify your opinion.

252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 266-314 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
The point I'm making is that it's not relevant to the context of Mega Slowbro because running Tinted Lens on Mmx means it will no longer be able to break the walls that it was supposed to be able to break in the first place. Running Tinted on Mmx is extremely sub-optimal because you're giving up so much for so little in return. To put it in context, even running Banded Dazzling or TC Mmx would be better than running Tinted, and even then Adapt is better in most cases.
The whole reason I mentioned it was because it was one of the many ways Mega Mewtwo X could beat Mega Slowbro. Whether it's optimal or not isn't the concern, it's simply the fact that it can beat Mega Slowbro. I never disagreed when you said Tinted Lens is bad. It still doesn't change the fact that the set does exist, even if we don't inherently think it's great. Personally, I wouldn't run it, but I'm not going to criticize others for trying it.

Not to mention that even with Tinted Lens and Choice Band, Mmx still can't even scratch FC Megabro.
Photon Geyser ignores abilities. I'm unsure whether it can consistently beat Mega Slowbro with hazards, but it's still something important to point out.

Arguing that you could run Tinted Mmx to beat Megabro is like arguing that you could run Pixilate on Mega Rayquaza over Aerilate just so Mega Tyranitar doesn't wall you...in both cases the sets are outclassed by other options that can do the same thing and much more and in both cases you lose much more than you gain from changing the ability (losing a huge amount of power in exchange for being able to KO a check or two that you probably could've beaten with a coverage move anyway).
With that logic, I could say Refrigerate Mega Mewtwo X is bad because Ice Hammer/Icicle Crash hits Dragon-types super-effectively while MMX keeps its ability. Mega Rayquaza can't beat Mega Tyranitar unless it explicitly brings Secret Sword or TG+Earth Power anyways, not that I'm defending Pixilate Mega Rayquaza, it's fucking dumb as hell and I can honestly see some people trying to justify it, but my point is, sets aren't that cut and dry. Usually if an offensive mon chooses to run something, it's to check a specific type or group of mons, not a single Pokemon or two.

I don't disagree with what you said. I just don't like your logic here.

Once again, bringing up Ghost types in an argument about Tinted Lens isn't a bright idea since it only strengthens my argument that Tinted Lens is sub-optimal as immunities do not care about Tinted Lens (or any other boosting ability for the type that they are immune to for that matter). Yes, Giratina is run frequently in the meta but running Tinted on Mmx isn't going to help you one bit in beating it.
I was explicitly referring to the more niche Ghost-types, Aegislash and Mega Sableye. That was the intent when I said 'semi-frequently', but I must not have made it clear enough. That's my fault. Giratina is basically used every other game at high ladder and was even #1 until very recently, and probably will end up #1 again some point soon. Aegislash is beaten by Tinted Lens while Mega Sableye is beaten by Trick. Giratina is vulnerable to neither (Griseous Orb), unfortunately. My point is that Mega Mewtwo X with Tinted Lens can beat all of its checks except for the bulky Dragon-types. Mega Mewtwo X with Tinted Lens isn't great, but I can understand that its purpose is to be able to check all of the more niche MMX checks. Do I think it's a good set? Not particularly, but I can understand why it's used.

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with your opinion that Mmx's position on the VR should be changed, I'm just pointing out that the argument you used to justify it is weak at best and irrelevant at worst. You could have literally said that Mmx could run Bolt Strike on its Adapt set to bypass Mega Slowbro and that would've been a good argument, but instead you decided to bring up a set that I personally have never seen on the ladder or on any tour (I wonder why) to try to justify your opinion.
Funny thing. I've actually never seen Bolt Strike used on the choiced sets, and if I had, I would have mentioned it by now. I'm not omniscient when it comes to the many used BH sets, but I've playing weekly for at least 8 or so months now and simply haven't seen Bolt Strike on a Mega Mewtwo X once. Just as you haven't seen Tinted Lens, I haven't seen Bolt Strike, and frankly I'm conflicted on it. On one hand, I want to try it as it seems like it could be useful, on another hand, it only really has a use in hitting Mega Slowbro as other Pokemon weak to Electric-type moves like Primal Kyogre, Mega Gyarados, Yveltal, and Celesteela are all threatened by Mega Mewtwo X's Fighting-type STAB.
 
My own nominations

Aegislash b > b+: With Flash fire, aegislash can check a lot of stuff steel-types aren't supposed to be able to such as Mega blazicon and MMX. It also works as a spinblocker that is invulnerable to poison fang and unphased by core enforcer which means Dialga, probably the most reliable spinner we have, can't really spin effectively on it. It is also a solid switchin to shedinja, something that no other steel-type is. Prankster set is about as good as other Steel-type pranksters.
compared to other Steel-type walls: It has roughly the same amount of bulk and a better defensive typing than ferrothorn which is in b, as it can take on all but choiced -ate users. Ferrothorn cannot take on mixed -aerilate megaray, and neither of them can handle triage megaray.
Aegislash is slower than necro-dm which is in B+, allowing for a slower pivot, and the only thing that psychic/steel has over Ghost/steel defensively is that it 4x resists psychic instead of 2x. In comparison, Aegislash is flat out immune to Fighting, making it a much safer MMX switchin than necro-dm (though neither is very safe to begin with). NEcro-DM, however, does pose a much stronger offensive presence and can run more viable sets than Aegislash. Though i argue that Aegislash performs the task of Flash Fire Wall and Prankster Utility wall better than necro-dm.

Solgaleo a- > b: This mon is just not so good anymore. Though I don't agree with necro-dm taking its place, Solgaleo is just flat out worse, its only redeeming quality being a bit more speed and physical bulk. The physical bulk doesn't even matter much when it can barely take most physical moves anyway (V-Create from mega diancie has a high chance to ohko after spikes). It does have a niche as a bulky mold breaker user that annoys stall teams to no end, but that is a very specific role and it is far from splashable.

Gyarados-mega b > b-: It is hard to justify on most teams now because there are often better options. Defensively, thanks to that juicy dark/water typing, Gyarados can still run a viable unaware set not worrying too much about sunsteel, moongeist, photon, or power trip. But that's really all it can do. Zygarde-C usually outclasses it as it can eat even a 260 bp power trip or sunsteel strike, and has much better bulk. Offensively, Shell Smash sets are dangerous, but other Pokemon run them better. Choice Band sets can net surprise KOs, but Tyranitar-Mega's Rock stab is much more offensively threatening than the Water STAB of Gyarados. And Garchomp-Mega can 2hKO pretty much the entire defensive metagame with just STAB moves whereas Gyarados cannot. Assault Vest sets get worn down by U-TUrn and Volt Switch, and I have never felt threatened by its Poison Heal sets.

Necrosma-Ultra b- > c: It more often than not finds itself having to predict in order to wallbreak effectively. It's definitely less consistent than its brethren in B-, Kyurtem-W, Blazicon-Mega, and Zekrom. C seems just right for it.

Lunala c > ur: I have never seen this on ladder or in tournament games. It just seems like a much weaker Mega Gengar.
 

morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Ok this argument is getting a bit stale so I'll just end it here, but to respond to your last points:

The whole reason I mentioned it was because it was one of the many ways Mega Mewtwo X could beat Mega Slowbro. Whether it's optimal or not isn't the concern, it's simply the fact that it can beat Mega Slowbro. I never disagreed when you said Tinted Lens is bad. It still doesn't change the fact that the set does exist, even if we don't inherently think it's great. Personally, I wouldn't run it, but I'm not going to criticize others for trying it.
Yes, and Pixilate Mega Ray can beat Ttar but that doesn't mean that it should be brought up when arguing about Mega Ray checks. If anything, you should be naming some of those other "many sets" that Mmx can run to beat Mega Slowbro that aren't bad like Tinted Lens. In fact, that's kind of what this whole argument is about, if you simply used a better example to justify your opinion on Mmx we wouldnt be having this conversation right now. Going by your own logic Pixilate Ray is a sound argument because while it is a bad set, "it still doesn't change the fact that the set does exist, even if we don't inherently think it's great."

Photon Geyser ignores abilities. I'm unsure whether it can consistently beat Mega Slowbro with hazards, but it's still something important to point out.
Calc it then instead of just talking out of nowhere, Photon Geyser fails to even 2HKO Mega Slowbro:
252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 152-180 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

With that logic, I could say Refrigerate Mega Mewtwo X is bad because Ice Hammer/Icicle Crash hits Dragon-types super-effectively while MMX keeps its ability. Mega Rayquaza can't beat Mega Tyranitar unless it explicitly brings Secret Sword or TG+Earth Power anyways, not that I'm defending Pixilate Mega Rayquaza, it's fucking dumb as hell and I can honestly see some people trying to justify it, but my point is, sets aren't that cut and dry. Usually if an offensive mon chooses to run something, it's to check a specific type or group of mons, not a single Pokemon or two.
No, Refrigerate Mmx is a set that can be used to bypass walls such as FC Giratina and FC Zygarde, which used to be very prominent walls before usum was introduced. Boomburst can 2HKO these walls without even being forced to run Choice Band while Ice Hammer cannot do the same thing. Additionally, Refrigerate gives Mmx more mixed power which is extremely useful for wallbreaking whereas Tinted does not add anything notable to the mon. The difference here is that Refrigerate actually brings some value to the table whereas Tinted does not.

I was explicitly referring to the more niche Ghost-types, Aegislash and Mega Sableye. That was the intent when I said 'semi-frequently', but I must not have made it clear enough. That's my fault. Giratina is basically used every other game at high ladder and was even #1 until very recently, and probably will end up #1 again some point soon. Aegislash is beaten by Tinted Lens while Mega Sableye is beaten by Trick. Giratina is vulnerable to neither (Griseous Orb), unfortunately. My point is that Mega Mewtwo X with Tinted Lens can beat all of its checks except for the bulky Dragon-types. Mega Mewtwo X with Tinted Lens isn't great, but I can understand that its purpose is to be able to check all of the more niche MMX checks. Do I think it's a good set? Not particularly, but I can understand why it's used.
So basically you're saying that by running Tinted Mmx gets to beat its rarely used checks at the expense of not being able to break the commonly used ones? Do you think this is a good tradeoff to be a sitting duck against 2 of the most commonly used walls in the meta in exchange for being able to beat the few mons that are used in very few teams? Also, while you could Trick Mega Sableye that doesn't stop it from just switching into Mmx anyway and being immune to both its STABs. Yes, it is now choice locked but you aren't any closer to breaking the mon either.

Funny thing. I've actually never seen Bolt Strike used on the choiced sets, and if I had, I would have mentioned it by now. I'm not omniscient when it comes to the many used BH sets, but I've playing weekly for at least 8 or so months now and simply haven't seen Bolt Strike on a Mega Mewtwo X once. Just as you haven't seen Tinted Lens, I haven't seen Bolt Strike, and frankly I'm conflicted on it. On one hand, I want to try it as it seems like it could be useful, on another hand, it only really has a use in hitting Mega Slowbro as other Pokemon weak to Electric-type moves like Primal Kyogre, Mega Gyarados, Yveltal, and Celesteela are all threatened by Mega Mewtwo X's Fighting-type STAB.
You may want to mention that perhaps the reason for that is that our experiences with the BH ladder are vastly different. Your experience is from where I would consider to be the mid ladder while my experience is from the higher parts of the ladder which tend to be more competitive. There's a big difference in the quality of gameplay between those 2 areas.
 

GL Volkner

meet me in the afterglow
is a Tiering Contributor
So basically you're saying that by running Tinted Mmx gets to beat its rarely used checks at the expense of not being able to break the commonly used ones? Do you think this is a good tradeoff to be a sitting duck against 2 of the most commonly used walls in the meta in exchange for being able to beat the few mons that are used in very few teams? Also, while you could Trick Mega Sableye that doesn't stop it from just switching into Mmx anyway and being immune to both its STABs. Yes, it is now choice locked but you aren't any closer to breaking the mon either.
Felt the need to address and expand on this point, because it's also worth nothing that even without Tinted Lens Psychic-types take quite a reasonable amount from U-turn considering how much PP it has (252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO), they also struggle to take KOff and lose their item and MMX can also bust through MegaBro with Spectral Thief after rocks guaranteed and 71% chance without rocks (252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 184-218 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO), Spectral Thief is p viable because it hits Aegislash in addition to Psychic types.
 
Gyarados-mega b > b-: It is hard to justify on most teams now because there are often better options. Defensively, thanks to that juicy dark/water typing, Gyarados can still run a viable unaware set not worrying too much about sunsteel, moongeist, photon, or power trip. But that's really all it can do. Zygarde-C usually outclasses it as it can eat even a 260 bp power trip or sunsteel strike, and has much better bulk. Offensively, Shell Smash sets are dangerous, but other Pokemon run them better. Choice Band sets can net surprise KOs, but Tyranitar-Mega's Rock stab is much more offensively threatening than the Water STAB of Gyarados. And Garchomp-Mega can 2hKO pretty much the entire defensive metagame with just STAB moves whereas Gyarados cannot. Assault Vest sets get worn down by U-TUrn and Volt Switch, and I have never felt threatened by its Poison Heal sets.
I feel like Mega Gyarados is similar to Mega Tyranitar except Gyarados has more defensive merits than Tyranitar while also being somewhat weaker with its attacks. I do think your points are valid, though, but I wanted to note that first. Its defensive sets are very good.

I should also note Mega Gyarados is a godsend in Rain, by the way. It's an especially great Swift Swim wallbreaker, better than Trash Greninja or other physical Water-type mons.

Lunala c > ur: I have never seen this on ladder or in tournament games. It just seems like a much weaker Mega Gengar.
I never even noticed Lunala until now. What the hell? Why is Lunala ranked at all? I've never seen it either, although I am of the understanding that it is used as a very effective setup sweeper utilizing Stored Power, Unburden, Shell Smash, and Moongeist Beam, all of which make it very difficult to wall. I don't think it should be ranked, but I do see its merits.

So basically you're saying that by running Tinted Mmx gets to beat its rarely used checks at the expense of not being able to break the commonly used ones? Do you think this is a good tradeoff to be a sitting duck against 2 of the most commonly used walls in the meta in exchange for being able to beat the few mons that are used in very few teams?
I never said it was. I've went on record multiple times saying I don't like the set personally.

Also, while you could Trick Mega Sableye that doesn't stop it from just switching into Mmx anyway and being immune to both its STABs. Yes, it is now choice locked but you aren't any closer to breaking the mon either.
Fair point. Although I should note that choice locking anything can offer setup opportunities which is why I like Trick when trying to annoy walls.

You may want to mention that perhaps the reason for that is that our experiences with the BH ladder are vastly different. Your experience is from where I would consider to be the mid ladder while my experience is from the higher parts of the ladder which tend to be more competitive. There's a big difference in the quality of gameplay between those 2 areas.
I've been up to mid 1600s before, but I will agree in that you are usually at the peak of the ladder unlike me. Mid 1600s isn't mid-ladder by any means, but I will note that there's a lot more variety on lower-to-mid ladder, for better or worse...

I have no real desire to continue this conversation either, you're right and I agree with you. I did want to respond one last time.
 
My own noms:
MMX A -> A+
Self explanatory
Solgaleo A- -> B
Simply outclassed by NDM for slow pivoting and offensive sets. Around the same level as the other steels.
Slowbro B -> B+
One of the best physical walls and a fairly reliable answer to mmx and ates with soundproof or general physical attackers with fur coat.
Cele B- -> B
Should be with Aegi Solg and Ferro, it’s not any worse.
Cress C -> B-/B
Kinda like bro but with special bulk it can tank MMY and stuff as well, also not weak to bolt strike which has been used on physical attackers.
Ho-Oh C -> B
Best xern answer with magic guard while hitting hard with Vcreate, forms a very solid defensive core with Dialga and way better than the C stuff
Ampharos D -> C
Dancer Ampharos is not a meme it hits both Kyogre and Yveltal super effectively and is excellent with gar, it’s typing and bulk lets it switch into kyogre better and slow speed let’s it fire a strong slow volt switch.
 
Mewtwo-Mega-X A -> A+: Agree
I'm pretty sure it's been said before, but basically sets like Adaptability and Technician have incredible walling potential and are only consistently walled by bulky Psychic types and Giratina.

Solgaleo drop: Agree
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane is better than it in almost all ways, trading in a bit of bulk in exchange for much less passivity and underspeeding base 90s.

Groudon-Primal rise: Agree
Its raw power and bulk makes it a really nice wallbreaker and tank.

Beedrill-Mega rise: Agree maybe even to B-
Its Poison typing is actually pretty helpful for it, giving it a STAB that beats Xerneas and Audino-Mega, which not no other fast pivots have. It also gives it a slightly better typing over Pheromosa, which allows it to come in on Pixilate Diancie-Mega once.

Sceptile-Mega drop: Abstain
My main opinion is that it's pretty underwhelming as a wallbreaker, mainly because of its STAB combination not being very good. Then again, I've never used it myself, so I don't have enough experience.

Deoxys-Attack drop: Disagree
It still has a niche as a mixed Dazzling wallbreaker, doing huge damage to things like Rayquaza-Mega and Kyurem-Black, as well as walls like Audino-Mega, Giratina, and Zygarde-Complete. It's basically a worse Mewtwo-Mega-X in that sense.

Ampharos-Mega drop/rise: Abstain
See Sceptile-Mega.

Groudon drop: Agree
There's not really any viable use of it other than Regenvest, and Zygarde-Complete does it better (except if you're improofing something with Fairy coverage or something). Even then, Swampert-Mega has a better typing and lower speed.

Aegislash rise: Disagree
Aegislash is deceptively bulky:
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 141-167 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 129-153 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I think the fact it trades the ability to check Specs -ate variants for spinblocking and checking MMX cements it in B rank along with Ferrothorn. Necrozma-Dusk-Mane has a niche over Aegislash because it's much less passive.

Gyarados-Mega drop: Agree
Ever since Mewtwo-Mega-X surged in viability, this mon is hard to justify over Kyogre-Primal or Slowbro-Mega.

Necrozma-Ultra drop: Abstain

Lunala drop: Abstain

Celesteela rise: Disagree
252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 171-201 (43 - 50.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 187-221 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Celesteela: 204-240 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Celesteela doesn't really do things that it wants to do: it doesn't wall MMX, it doesn't wall -ate, and its only good niche it has is avoiding Spikes (at a cost at not resisting SR), beating Ground coverage (which is fairly rare in the first place, plus isn't that effective due to Thousand Arrows existing), and having STAB Beak Blast, which overall doesn't really justify using it over something like Magearna or Ferrothorn, who have more important secondary typings.

Cresselia rise: Agree
I'm surprised this isn't used more, being a decent mixed wall with the ability to check MMX. It can run Regenvest, PH, and Prankster pretty well, which gives it a small niche over Slowbro-Mega.

Ho-Oh rise: Agree
Shutting down Pixilate Diancie-Mega and Xerneas is pretty amazing, and its Unaware set eats Contrary for breakfast. Maybe put it in B- due to its SR weakness, though.

Ampharos-Mega rise: Abstain

My own nominations:
Chansey B+ -> A-
Fur Coat Chansey is one of the only reliable checks to Sheer Force MMY other than Shedinja, and also tanks hits from other mixed sets like Rayquaza-Mega and Diancie-Mega, which I believe earns it a spot in the A-rank.

Garchomp-Mega B -> B+
Zekrom B- -> B
I lumped these together because both have a high Attack stat and a great offensive STAB synergy that rivals that of other higher-ranked Dragon types. They also are decent defensively, allowing them to take more hits that Kyurem-Black or Sceptile-Mega cannot. Sure, they might not be very fast, but they function more as wallbreakers than all-purpose attackers, which I think puts them in the B or B+ range.

Magearna C -> B- or B
I don't really know why Magearna is ranked so low. It has about the same bulk as Ferrothorn and Celesteela, while boasting a great 4x resistance to Bug, resistance to Dark, and immunity to Dragon, which gives it a definite niche. It has a nice 65 speed and 130 Special Attack too.
 
Garchomp-Mega B -> B+
Zekrom B- -> B
I lumped these together because both have a high Attack stat and a great offensive STAB synergy that rivals that of other higher-ranked Dragon types. They also are decent defensively, allowing them to take more hits that Kyurem-Black or Sceptile-Mega cannot. Sure, they might not be very fast, but they function more as wallbreakers than all-purpose attackers, which I think puts them in the B or B+ range.
I think what separates Mega Chomp and Zekrom from the higher ranked physical breakers is that they are shut down by common Pixilate and Refrigerate users.

Above them, Groudon resists Pixilate and is neutral to Refrigerate while MMX is weak to Pixilate and neutral to Refrigerate. This allows Groudon to 1v1 Diancie and Kyu-B without the help of an ability. Meanwhile MMX can 1v1 Kyu-B and can beat Diancie with Dazzling/Queenly Majesty without being a niche set.

Chomp and Zekrom definitely have nice offensive STABs to mess with the meta's more popular walls, but I think this inherit weakness is what keeps them from rising.

Edit: Somehow I left out Kartana, but it shares Groudon's resistance and neutrality to Fairy and Ice.
 
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I have a nomination of my own, albeit not to the tier list.

Role Compendium -> Defensive Pivot -> Fur Coat -> add Arceus

Why add Arceus when Chansey already is there? Arceus has several useful things going for it...

1) Furry Arceus is bulkier than Furry Eviolite Chansey on the physical side, even when not running a +Defense nature, which can be critical in certain match-ups. Observe...

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus: 186-218 (41.8 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 348-410 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO


2) As an extension of this, Arceus fares a lot better when it comes to items. It is far more flexible on its item slot, able to run Leftovers, Safety Goggles, Z-Crystals, or whatever else you might feel is appropriate. Chansey? It's limited to Eviolite because otherwise it struggles to utilize Fur Coat. As such, its also hyper-vulnerable to Trick/Knock Off, whereas Arceus doesn't care nearly as much. This is important because Arceus' bulk remains consistent throughout the match, whereas Chansey's physical defense can get tanked by any opposing member of the team. As you can see here...

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Chansey: 518-612 (73.5 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


3) Arceus is fast. This lets it do things like run Taunt to prevent Pokemon like Gigas from setting up or putting it to sleep, a Pokemon that Furry Chansey can have trouble with. It can also get a free switch in at low HP and heal in front of most bulky offensive Pokemon if absolutely needed to, whereas Chansey is a sitting duck, and a few of the frail hard hitters too, like Diancie, with the appropriate nature.


4) Arceus has an offensive presence. Base 120 is by no means amazing, but STAB Boomburst compensates with its high base power and is enough. It also can do some damage with Spectral Thief to actually hurt things when stealing boosts. For example, assume safe, healthy switch on both sides and Contrary MMX uses Super Power...

252+ Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus: 204-240 (45.9 - 54%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Arceus Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 220-260 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus: 134-162 (30.1 - 36.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Arceus actually wins this match-up assuming no crit hax on Mewtwo's part when MMX is supposed to counter Arceus. Of course, this is a specific example, but I think you see what I mean.



Now mind, I am not advocating replacing Chansey for the role for these reasons...

1) Chansey makes for a much better slow pivot.

2) Chansey is bulkier on the special side, even if Eviolite is lost.

3) Chansey has better Wish support.

4) Minor, but picking a nature for Arceus can be hard since it kinda doesn't want drops to its stats. -Spe with max IVs/EVs still outspeeds Adamant Gigas and non-boosting Base 100s, but barely. You have to go neutral or +Speed to outrun stuff like Mega-Ray if you plan on trying to Taunt their set--up moves. It's easier if you drop Boomburst or don't use/don't mind a damage drop on Spectral Thief.

Simply, Arceus is a viable alternative in a Fur Coat role for teams who don't need a Fur Coat wall/pivot to be very slow. I'd advocate for putting Furry Arceus in a more general wall section, but Fur Coat is only listed under defensive pivots. Hence, my nom for there.


Example set


Arceus @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Sassy / Bold / Calm etc. Nature
- Boomburst
- Spectral Thief / Taunt
- Shore Up
- Taunt / U-Turn / Parting Shot / Baton Pass
 
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morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I’d like to point out that comparing FC Arceus to FC Chansey really doesn’t make much sense as their roles are extremely different...FC Chansey is used mostly as a stop to most -ate users and other similar mixed attackers like MG Diancie and SF Mmy (and a blanket check to many special attackers) while FC Arceus doesn’t rly do any of those things that well...
 
I picked Chansey since it was the other pure normal-type so, as far as type synergy goes, Chansey would be the most direct competition. And as good and as much as I like Fur Coat Chansey, it's ability to check physical side once it loses Eviolite is shaky at best, to the point of not being able to do its job (MG LO Diancie 2HKOs with Head Smash and LO Aerilate Ray 3HKOs with Extreme Speed and 2HKOs with Boomburst, to use some examples). And considering how splashable Knock Off is... yeah... it's gotten shaky in my experience since you have high odds of losing your item when taking a moment to recover.

Mind, again, not saying Chansey sucks or anything, it's great. It just... has a big, major flaw that has let me down more times than I care to count.


Arceus has advantages in it handles pure physical attackers quite a bit better and has more options to deal with them since it's not so passive. For example, its Boomburst will 2HKO Ray with Rocks up, preventing it from getting an easy switch-in like it can on a more passive mon like Chansey (slow pivots notwithstanding) and, even if Ray does switch into it, if Arceus is running +Spe nature, it KOs without eating an 80% damage hit. Heck, to use Diancie, it bops it for 25% which, while not amazing, keeps it from switching in repeatedly without Wish support.

Other notable things Arceus does well include handling Gigas much better due to either Safety Goggles or fast Taunt, handling most Primaldon better, more likely to survive Sunsteel and physical Photon Geyser, able to threaten with Spectral Thief and actually use the stolen stats, can check some MMX sets if healthy, is not Taunt bait, can Taunt or attack opposing walls so they can't switch and heal for (almost) free on it, can fast status opposing attackers and walls, and among other things.

Yeah, some of that is just "Arceus in general", but it still leverages Fur Coat pretty darn well, well enough to be mentioned in the Role Compendium, IMO. Try it out sometime if you haven't, whether my example set or something else that would work better for whatever team you use it on (I vote the latter).
 
Got some UR noms here:
Stakataka to D, abilities Levitate Regenerator Steelworker?
Stakataka is pretty cool as it has great bulk and a neutrality to fire which lets it take V-creates without needing FF making it a decent -ate check (like Ray Kyu-B and maybe Diancie if really healthy. Its quadruple resistance to flying is also cool to troll Ray. Obviously Thousand Arrows suck but its pretty rare outside of Don and Chomp so its not too bad. It has its niche over Registeel just like all the other steels like Ferro Cele Mage and Aegi. I would say it definitely deserves D and maybe C?

Scizor to D, abilities Flash Fire Regenerator Fur Coat?
Scizor is also pretty cool since it has a very solid typing which gives it neutrality to Ground and Fighting while providing STAB U-turn, which is pretty good at chipping. I have been experimenting with Fur Coat and Powder which lets it beat Gigas, tank MMX, while not immediately losing to fire coverage by forcing 50-50s. I run U-turn spectral shore up Powder with Ghostium for Gengar.

For Stakatakatakatakatakataka
252 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stakataka: 137-162 (42 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Diancie-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Stakataka: 104-123 (31.9 - 37.7%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Diancie-Mega Light of Ruin vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stakataka: 123-146 (37.7 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Diancie-Mega Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Stakataka: 91-108 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stakataka: 111-131 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stakataka: 93-110 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Stakataka: 114-135 (34.9 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 252+ Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Stakataka: 132-156 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

For Scizor
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Scizor-Mega: 148-176 (43 - 51.1%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Regigigas Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Scizor-Mega: 103-122 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- 26.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Scizor-Mega: 152-179 (44.1 - 52%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Scizor-Mega: 123-145 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Scizor-Mega First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 324-384 (77.8 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Scizor-Mega U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 109-129 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Scizor-Mega Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 386-456 (119.1 - 140.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Scizor-Mega Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 418-494 (100.4 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I picked Chansey since it was the other pure normal-type so, as far as type synergy goes, Chansey would be the most direct competition. And as good and as much as I like Fur Coat Chansey, it's ability to check physical side once it loses Eviolite is shaky at best, to the point of not being able to do its job (MG LO Diancie 2HKOs with Head Smash and LO Aerilate Ray 3HKOs with Extreme Speed and 2HKOs with Boomburst, to use some examples). And considering how splashable Knock Off is... yeah... it's gotten shaky in my experience since you have high odds of losing your item when taking a moment to recover.

Mind, again, not saying Chansey sucks or anything, it's great. It just... has a big, major flaw that has let me down more times than I care to count.


Arceus has advantages in it handles pure physical attackers quite a bit better and has more options to deal with them since it's not so passive. For example, its Boomburst will 2HKO Ray with Rocks up, preventing it from getting an easy switch-in like it can on a more passive mon like Chansey (slow pivots notwithstanding) and, even if Ray does switch into it, if Arceus is running +Spe nature, it KOs without eating an 80% damage hit. Heck, to use Diancie, it bops it for 25% which, while not amazing, keeps it from switching in repeatedly without Wish support.

Other notable things Arceus does well include handling Gigas much better due to either Safety Goggles or fast Taunt, handling most Primaldon better, more likely to survive Sunsteel and physical Photon Geyser, able to threaten with Spectral Thief and actually use the stolen stats, can check some MMX sets if healthy, is not Taunt bait, can Taunt or attack opposing walls so they can't switch and heal for (almost) free on it, can fast status opposing attackers and walls, and among other things.

Yeah, some of that is just "Arceus in general", but it still leverages Fur Coat pretty darn well, well enough to be mentioned in the Role Compendium, IMO. Try it out sometime if you haven't, whether my example set or something else that would work better for whatever team you use it on (I vote the latter).
Just because Chansey is reliant on Eviolite doesn't mean it should be compared to Arceus lol, that's just an inherent weakness of Chansey. Two mons shouldn't be compared with each other just because they have the same typing either; you don't see people comparing Mega Garchomp to Zygarde-C (this is because they do two completely different things in the meta). You even kind of agree with me in your post when you say that Arceus handles Gigas and Pdon, mons neither of which FC Chansey is meant to check (or is even capable of checking, for that matter). Yes, Chansey won't be able to do its job if Eviolite is removed but that just means it's reliant on its item; it doesn't mean that FC Arceus is a good alternative for checking the mons that FC Chansey checks (-ate can still 2HKO FC Arceus with Boomburst for example, MG Diancie can 2HKO with LoR, and SF Mmy can 2HKO with Psychic). If anything, I would compare FC Chansey to RegenVest or Soundproof Arceus instead since in that case they would be checking similar threats (and spoiler alert on that one: Chansey is better than Regenvest almost objectively and for the most part better than Soundproof Arceus, Soundproof Arceus' only advantage is being less item-reliant and also being able to check Specs Ray better).
 
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