BH Balanced Hackmons Central Resources

GL Volkner

reclaim your crown
is a Tiering Contributor
Thanks to those who supplied new samples. Since I haven't been able to update them yet, I'm still accepting more. I would appreciate teams with limited use of Illusion. As always follow the right format for the same.
sure


https://pokepast.es/485936c02405c8da

description - The Mega Mewtwo X set is a self-Imposterproof offensive Stealth Rock setter and Regigigas set. The gameplan after you wisp Imposter is to hard tina every time, since Icicle Crash does 0 and they're not getting Rocks up. Dialga is a blanket -ate check, MGar check, MMY check, Kyogre check and your form of hazard removal. It is imposterproofed by Primal Groudon. Giratina is a secondary Regigigas check, Primal Groudon check etc. Imposter is good glue, Scarf to beat forms of setup since this team lacks Prankster. Most mons dont set up for free on anything, though. Primal Groudon is for Imposterproofing Dialga, Mega Diancie and checking Kyogre and Xerneas. It's overall being a good offensive threat. It can self-Improof but tina will improof in a pinch. The Mega Diancie set is the centerpiece to this team, and it 2HKOs almost in the tier. Specs Boomburst is spammable as it 2HKOs Registeel after minimal chip which should be a testament to how powerful MDiancie's Specs Boomburst is.

Huge s/o to Quantum Tesseract motherlove and fsk for help on this. I don't have an ELO peak or anything but Tzop used this for reqs and it did well, other people have tried it too and liked it.
 
I'm gonna do like GL Volkner and post a team as a sample, for the same reasons.
1533148830421.png

https://pokepast.es/b720cb29ad5441e3
Brief description: MMY is the first attacker of the team, hitting hard without caring about recoil moves and life orb. Psystrike is mainly for kyogre and for not giving away your ability immediately. Photon geyser hits shedinja and ensures that MMY can hit both defenses with stab. It's improofed by both Fur Coat Chansey and Registeel. Running Earth Power over one of the stab moves means that you no longer are walled by FF steels (not celesteela but it takes a lot from other moves) but it means that Fur Coat Chansey is your only improof.
Registeel: FF to take on fire coverage and to ignore bouncing will-o-wisps. Ideally you'll want to burn as much as you can. It's the defogger of the team.
Giratina: MB to check spraying of hazards, poison heal (not fairies), and opposing dragons due to core enforcer + griseous. Because this team doesn't use poison heal, i'm free to run a moveslot for heal bell. Hard counters arceus' imposter (not a plated one).
Chansey (fur coat): The glue of the team; it serves nothing but passing huge wishes to the rest of the team and punish set up with metal burst if they dare to hit it.
Chansey (imposter): It's eviolite imposter. When it is not, fake out breaks illusion (gonna be pointless if it ends up banned), toxic spikes pressures the opponents, parting shot is for pivoting end encore screws momentum for minimum speed pokemon or predicted setup. It's situational anyway as you need to not transform.

Arceus requires more than a brief description because it's an uncommon set.
It's dragon because giratina can its imposter SE. Normal typing + taunt checks a multitude of anti-setup options and even if they are unaware you can disable their recovery and break them anyway. Arceus has a fair natural bulk of 120/x3 and while it likes to be healthy it can afford to take a hit or two while it sets up tailglow. Speed boost patches up the not so good speed and you can use the chance (once) to lure in fast but frail pokemons and KO 'em with either boomburst or judgement. This usually happens by switching in (on a u-turn or with baton pass), set up a tailglow and let the opponent safe pivot something in; then speed boost start accumulating boosts, in particular after the opponent has switched in something that you can lure. For the same reasons against imposter you have a guaranteed outspeed on non-scarfed variants if it doesn't begin its turn on the field; depending on how much hp it has left and on how much arceus has boosted you can bring it down on the spot. At +0 it's pointless, at +3 you do 39.2% - 46.1%, at +6 you do 62.6% - 73.7%. It's easier without eviolite (suicidal with scarf tho) but it's quite good anyway.
I'm gonna pick the tier list up and including B to show how it does.
Mega Mewtwo Y --> ohkoed at +3 judgement
Mega Rayquaza --> ohkoed at +3 boomburst
Diancie-Mega --> 82.2 - 97% at +3 judgement, ohkoed at +6
Giratina --> 6.3% ohkoed when +spd, 62.5% ohkoed otherwise at +3 judjement, ohkoed at +6 unless +spd assault vest (43.8% of ohko)
Kyogre-Primal --> 82.6% - 97.5% when neutral at +3 boomburst, ohkoed at +6 unless assault vest (25% of ohko) (but what's the plan for "stop +6 arceus while running AV" anyway)
Gengar-Mega --> 68.5% - 80.8% at +0 judgement, ohkoed at +3 judgement (goes past normalize as usual)
Registeel --> 2hkoed at +3 judgement, 80.2 - 94.5% at +6 judgement
Regigigas/Slaking --> ohkoed at +3 boomburst (both)
Mewtwo-Mega-X --> ohkoed at +3 with either move
Xerneas --> ohkoed at +3 boomburst unless +spd
Zygarde-C --> 76.1% - 89.6% at +3 boomburst, ohkoed at +6 boomburst unless assault vest
Audino-Mega --> 81.3% when neutral, 25% when spd+ at +3 boomburst
Dialga --> 2hkoed at +3 with either move, ohkoed at +6 judgement unless AV
Groudon/Pdon --> ohkoed at +3 boomburst
Kangaskhan --> ohkoed at +3 boomburst
Shedinja --> :blobshrug:
Solgaleo --> ohkoed at +3 judgement, at +6 even after AV
Chansey --> 2hkoed at +6 boomburst, you die to metal burst but without it you can taunt to win
Kartana --> 2hkoed at +0 with either move, ohkoed at +3 with either move
Necrozma Dusk-Mane --> ohkoed at +3 judgement, at +6 even after AV
Tyranitar-Mega --> 98.8 2hkoed when spd+ and AV/sand, clean 2hkoed otherwise (at +6 boomburst)
Yveltal --> ohkoed at +3 boomburst unless +spd (68.8% of ohko), at +6 even after AV
Arceus --> 56.3% ohkoed at +3 boomburst when neutral, 6.3% when +spd, +6 even after neutral AV (50% with +spd) (soundproof is like shedinja here)
Aegislash --> ohkoed at +3 judgement
Ferrothorn --> 2hkoed at +3 with either move, 93.6% ohkoed at +6 judgement
Garchomp-Mega --> ohkoed at +3 boomburst
Gyarados-Mega --> 93.8% ohkoed at neutral +3 boomburst (37.5% otherwise), ohkoed at +6 boomburst
Kyurem-B --> ohkoed at +3 boomburst
Sceptile-Mega --> ohkoed at +3 boomburst
Slowbro-Mega --> ohkoed at +3 with either move
Zekrom --> ohkoed at +3 boomburst
Blaziken-Mega --> ohkoed at +3 boomburst
Celesteela --> 2hkoed at +3 with either move
Kyurem-W --> ohkoed at +3 boomburst, 81.3% of ohkoed with spd+, ohkoed otherwise
Necrozma-Ultra --> ohkoed at +3 with either move
Swampert-Mega --> ohkoed at neutral +3 boomburst (93.8% spd+)
Because it's arceus, you never lose access to ghost judgement (switchin on koff and trick with impunity). It keeps healthy by having chansey wishpassing 80% hp. Giratina hard counters the imposter unless it has a plate (in which case you are fried unless it taunts itself and you kill it with metal burst).

Flint has seen the team in action I guess it counts for examples, if not then I'll post replays.
EDIT:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-784607667 --> this replay is relevant as it shows arceus breaking through unaware chansey. Because it is robbed of both recovery and haze, it cannot deal with arceus even if boomburst 7hkoes, and the opponent forfeits (and prankster aegislash switching in on +6 judg didn't help either) as the rest of the team is ohkoed.
 
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I wanted to submit a couple of samples that are somewhat unconventional but have worked really well on the ladder and against various other players.
The two teams are different in practice but follow a very similar build mentality.


https://pokepast.es/3e21c9da963b440d

Wear down the opposing team with SD avalanche Slaking + Shift Gear Koff Slaking. Ideally, koff goggles first before trying to sd wallbreak. The Rays are necessary meta checks and secondary wincons, triage ray is also a very good revenge killer and check to setup. Soundproof + queenly combo is a tried and tested -ate check, scarf Slaking takes a bunch of -ates off guard. Gira is setup check and offensive mmx variants check. Slakings by themselves check PH MMX because low Kick does little.
Slaking is important to run on the queenly slot to bait -ates into staying in and boomburst, works well in turn 1. Shift Gear Slaking should be a Slaking as to not lose to PH MMX, the third Slaking is a Slaking for the confusion.
Entrain Pranktina gives me a more reliable -ate check and various PH check like xerneas or Ttar. Also means I don't have to deal with imposter clicking core.


https://pokepast.es/f551a93f4452e565

Double Koff + spore spam and multiple setup can pressure standard teams really well. Aegislash is an -ate check pivot and last effort check to predicted setup or fat setup. It also means you don't auto lose to shedinja. Sceptiles have good synergy together as soundproof sceptile walls queenly sceptile who can't koff the z item and queenly + soundproof form a strong -ate checking core. Clanging scales goes through sub so you check opposing triage ray and counter your own triage ray. MMX checks various fat PH such as Regigigas and Ttar while also pressuring balance really well and checking -ates. Triage ray is broken a surprisingly good defogger because of its ability to live through the battle, defog on unboosted imposter, and the fact that it switches on some problematic mons like pdon or PH mmx. It's also a good -ate check. Contrary Sceptile is improofed by offensive pressure the two other sceptiles, its own sash and triage ray.
This team has not been as good as the other one on ladder because of the various contrary setup, but it's proven itself in the various battles I had against some other competent players during OMPL.
 

a loser

formerly loser2017
I agree with most of the VR votes but what is up with Beedrill being shown D -> UR? It just got here and if anything people were voting to raise it to C. I see no posts of anyone discussing a drop.
 
I agree with most of the VR votes but what is up with Beedrill being shown D -> UR? It just got here and if anything people were voting to raise it to C. I see no posts of anyone discussing a drop.
Flint said:
a refactoring of D rank to be a stricter in terms of usage and viability when comparing some mons with the others within that rank
They went through every D rank mon afaik. Which has been a subject of discussion.
 

a loser

formerly loser2017
They went through every D rank mon afaik. Which has been a subject of discussion.
Yeah I get that, but nobody in any recent posts had said Beedrill should drop. So I wasn't sure where they got that from. People were saying it should rise. Most of the other votes looked like they were based on what people discussed or nominated.
 

Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

went from brawl to melee, still mediocre
is a Community Contributor
set assumed here is sunsteel/bolt strike/zdraco/smash adapt
Zekrom no longer prefers Galvanize - It didn't lose viability, it just swapped its main set. This set is also arguably better as even though it isn't Imposterproof, it still hits hard as hell and has a freaking epic STAB combination that OHKOs north of 85% of the metagame after a Shell Smash.
yeah maybe it does, but who are you even setting up on? ogre is the only common mon that actually gets threatened out by zekrom (giratina can stay in because it can't be ohko'd bar adapt z draco). pivots like registeel and audino u turn on anything and can go to imposter or one of the many pokemon that outspeed and ohko zekrom, like diancie, scept, cb adapt mmx, dragon move ray, and lo/specs fleur cannon mmy.

additionally, zekrom does pretty poorly against prankster. you can't run taunt or something because you 100% need sunsteel to hit shedinja, so unless you're up against prankster gira/zyg, zekrom is gonna get shut down.

overall zekrom is pretty cool once it gets set up, but its bad attacking stats (draco weaker than naganadel) really hold it back by preventing it from forcing out anything except ogre and the rare gyara.
The only common checks are Prankster Registeel and Ferrothorn and even then Prankster Registeel gets destroyed by Electric Terrain support which is really good for Zekrom.
electric terrain support takes a huge toll on teambuilding where every slot counts to handle all the threats. basically you're giving up prankster or regenvest or magic bounce just so you can kill registeel which dbonds anyway? running electric terrain doesn't help zekrom enough to warrant using it.
It is far from being on the same level as Hoopa U, Deo A, Xurk, Lunala, MAmp and MAero.
aero deo a and xurk aren't rly comparable to this, xurk is a wallbreaker while aero and deo are fast

amp just dropped

lunala can imposter proof itself, meaning it can actually set up on uturn. reasonable bulk + no espeed weakness also basically prevents atespeed from revenge killing. it's also hard to wall considering the recent decline in dark types. set is smash/sword or focus blast/moongeist/psystrike unburden white herb

hoopa is pretty much unwallable at +2 even with dazzling thanks to stab 140 bp trip. smash/trip/sunsteel/cc. you can set up on fast giratina/ogre thanks to base 80 speed and just go to town man. cc kills prank registeel and dark types.

both these mons are around as good as zekrom i think.

the problem with cb zekrom is that it's pretty outclassed by tc cb kyurem. kyurem ohkos giratina and zyg with ice hammer, unlike zekrom with dragon hammer. outside of that zekrom's stronger bolt strike doesn't really accomplish much because kyub still ohkos ogre/gyara and 2hkos ff registeel with bolt strike. zekrom's only real niche is better defensive typing.

tldr i think c might be a bit too much but zekrom shouldn't be b. move it to b-.

ok let's move on

ttar to b

building with this mon is so hard because it's weak to literally everything. it's a bad mmy check, a bad mray check, and even a bad gengar check because it gets dunked by sword. everyone else just eats it for breakfast. steels? fairies? ogre? pdon? mmx??? u turn does like 20-30 depending on the mon which stacks up stupidly quickly. this pokemon checks pretty much only ph regi, shed, and other dark types. drop

lunala to ur, necrozma dawn wings to c

necro is literally just better lunala because of his higher spa. speed doesn't matter if u click shell smash anyway

deoxys s to the SHADOW REALM this pokemon is literally never used outside of low ladder why has it stayed here for so long

mega aggron to d. fc aggron is actually the dumbest thing in the game and i think it deserves d if lix is c

why is cosmoem blacklisted if deoxys defense isn't??? FREE MY MAN JIMMY NEUTRON

that's all for today
 

GL Volkner

reclaim your crown
is a Tiering Contributor
set assumed here is sunsteel/bolt strike/zdraco/smash adapt

yeah maybe it does, but who are you even setting up on? ogre is the only common mon that actually gets threatened out by zekrom (giratina can stay in because it can't be ohko'd bar adapt z draco). pivots like registeel and audino u turn on anything and can go to imposter or one of the many pokemon that outspeed and ohko zekrom, like diancie, scept, cb adapt mmx, dragon move ray, and lo/specs fleur cannon mmy.

additionally, zekrom does pretty poorly against prankster. you can't run taunt or something because you 100% need sunsteel to hit shedinja, so unless you're up against prankster gira/zyg, zekrom is gonna get shut down.

overall zekrom is pretty cool once it gets set up, but its bad attacking stats (draco weaker than naganadel) really hold it back by preventing it from forcing out anything except ogre and the rare gyara.

electric terrain support takes a huge toll on teambuilding where every slot counts to handle all the threats. basically you're giving up prankster or regenvest or magic bounce just so you can kill registeel which dbonds anyway? running electric terrain doesn't help zekrom enough to warrant using it.

aero deo a and xurk aren't rly comparable to this, xurk is a wallbreaker while aero and deo are fast

amp just dropped

lunala can imposter proof itself, meaning it can actually set up on uturn. reasonable bulk + no espeed weakness also basically prevents atespeed from revenge killing. it's also hard to wall considering the recent decline in dark types. set is smash/sword or focus blast/moongeist/psystrike unburden white herb

hoopa is pretty much unwallable at +2 even with dazzling thanks to stab 140 bp trip. smash/trip/sunsteel/cc. you can set up on fast giratina/ogre thanks to base 80 speed and just go to town man. cc kills prank registeel and dark types.

both these mons are around as good as zekrom i think.

the problem with cb zekrom is that it's pretty outclassed by tc cb kyurem. kyurem ohkos giratina and zyg with ice hammer, unlike zekrom with dragon hammer. outside of that zekrom's stronger bolt strike doesn't really accomplish much because kyub still ohkos ogre/gyara and 2hkos ff registeel with bolt strike. zekrom's only real niche is better defensive typing.

tldr i think c might be a bit too much but zekrom shouldn't be b. move it to b-.

ok let's move on

ttar to b

building with this mon is so hard because it's weak to literally everything. it's a bad mmy check, a bad mray check, and even a bad gengar check because it gets dunked by sword. everyone else just eats it for breakfast. steels? fairies? ogre? pdon? mmx??? u turn does like 20-30 depending on the mon which stacks up stupidly quickly. this pokemon checks pretty much only ph regi, shed, and other dark types. drop

lunala to ur, necrozma dawn wings to c

necro is literally just better lunala because of his higher spa. speed doesn't matter if u click shell smash anyway

deoxys s to the SHADOW REALM this pokemon is literally never used outside of low ladder why has it stayed here for so long

mega aggron to d. fc aggron is actually the dumbest thing in the game and i think it deserves d if lix is c

why is cosmoem blacklisted if deoxys defense isn't??? FREE MY MAN JIMMY NEUTRON

that's all for today
Ogre is the only common mon you set up on?

Yveltal, MGyara, Prank Aegi and Regi, ZygC, Tina (which are forced out either by the threat of Z Draco, LO Draco or just not being at 100%) are all Pokemon it can set up on.

Sunsteel is definitely not needed, Zekrom should not be your Shedinja check and as a result it doesn't need Sunsteel. What is needed is SR or Spikes support bc they let Zekrom wallbreak unboosted, which helps Zekrom bypass Shed. Sunsteel has only 8 PP. It is not great on Zekrom. As a result, you can run Taunt, CC or other filler. These let you beat Pranksters.

Bad attacking stats? The thing can wallbreak like crazy with entry hazard support..

Electric Terrain is good on teams which need sleep answers but have a dragon, plus it's a benefit and not a requirement. DBond gets taunted

Sure DeoA is fast but it's still a setup sweeper and far less good without setup since it's such spectral bait and it cant even outslow/speed tie a lot of spectral users. Lunala is bad, its weak to koff spectral can only self improof once and on top of all that still gets 1v1ed by fakespeed mray unless its naive w sr up which is still a roll.
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Lunala: 307-363 (64.2 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252- SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 297-351 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Also if you can just dbond and that counts as not doing well vs pranks then ig pranks can dbond vs lunala too?

Hoopa is hard to wall once it sets up but w slowturn slowthief and imposter being as common as they are that opportunity will be rly hard to find.

252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zekrom Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 404-476 (80.1 - 94.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

You say it cant ohko without posting the calc lul.. it can still ohko. Just run adamant or get some chip, or run spikes which is rly good w zek and get 2 layers. Zygardee ill admit doesnt get ohkoed as easily (calc: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zekrom Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 440-522 (69.1 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) but it cant switch in reliably or anything. Zekrom also has the benefit of 2hkoing ff steels just w stabs and doesnt need coverage to bypass most of the meta while also rking triage mray and vcreate mray. Its niche is also not needing coverage as much meaning it can run cc and that's p much all, your kyub needs cc bolt strike coverage and ig you don't need dragon stab but the movesets become p similar. kyub also has an sr weakness, though, which means it can generally come in less often. at this point its a q of if you prefer the sr weakness and power vs zygc or if youre fine w a 2hko for a lack of an sr weakness and a better defensive type. granted for me it depends on the team but zek doesnt get as outclassed as youre saying it does.
 

Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

went from brawl to melee, still mediocre
is a Community Contributor
Yveltal, MGyara, Prank Aegi and Regi, ZygC, Tina (which are forced out either by the threat of Z Draco, LO Draco or just not being at 100%) are all Pokemon it can set up on.
ok

i forgot about yveltal, fair enough
gyara is not common, it was used literally once in ompl and it's a very niche mon in general
aegi/regi just u turn into a revenge killer or stay in and recover
i mean yeah you can threaten to ohko dragons, but setting up on them is a really risky idea. spectral obviously stops you and core/waves from zyg do a million
Sunsteel is definitely not needed, Zekrom should not be your Shedinja check and as a result it doesn't need Sunsteel. What is needed is SR or Spikes support bc they let Zekrom wallbreak unboosted, which helps Zekrom bypass Shed.
how are you getting this hazard support? again you're assuming that you can afford to run mons that are more aggressive (otherwise you don't get rocks vs shed) when you're already railroaded into a) running an imposter proofer for zekrom and b) running hazard removal and an imposter proofer for this hazard setter. if you're going to have counterplay to all the offensive threats, this isn't a very feasible setup.

also cc has 8 pp like sunsteel

252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zekrom Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 404-476 (80.1 - 94.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

You say it cant ohko without posting the calc lul.. it can still ohko. Just run adamant or get some chip, or run spikes which is rly good w zek and get 2 layers.
85 isn't an ohko. you know what is? this

252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kyurem-Black Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 494-584 (98 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

if we're assuming zekrom/kyub coming in on giratina, this is actually a huge difference. kyub gives you the freedom to run passive slow uturn mons. with zekrom, you can't do that because the giratina can just recover on the uturn and suddenly you can't kill him, you need like hazards + uturn mmx.

Its niche is also not needing coverage as much meaning it can run cc and that's p much all, your kyub needs cc bolt strike coverage and ig you don't need dragon stab but the movesets become p similar.
the kyub set is ice hammer/cc/bolt strike/filler. unless we're looking into shedinja or very rare fc users, it literally only needs these three attacks to hit everything. "coverage" doesn't really mean much here when kyub's coverage is as strong as zekrom's dragon hammer

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kyurem-Black Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 258-304 (58.1 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zekrom Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 244-288 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Zekrom also has the benefit of 2hkoing ff steels just w stabs
yeah but you're running cc anyway which ohkos no matter what dragon it's on

the thing with kyub is that unlike any of zekrom's moves, ice hammer is such a spammable move that you don't get punished as much if you mispredict.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zekrom Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 103-122 (28.2 - 33.5%) -- 96% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kyurem-Black Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 126-149 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- 64.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

also, the other player can't switch in their fairy type after you click ice hammer, unlike with dragon hammer.

zekrom was used only once in ompl, and it lost. in comparison, kyub was used three times, winning two out of the three games.

i think zekrom is definitely worse than kyub, so it should drop a subrank.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Battle Server Moderator
Community Leader
I am late but I thought I'd push through multiple changes and then post because there have been some significant ones
--
Announcements
  • VR
    • update is complete post feedback from the thread (this was the easy part). Most notably, Imposter has been moved again due to recent confusion and some rethinking about the "meta" rank (which really shouldn't exist above S rank). The new thought process of treating Imposter as the "mon" and listing its 3 most viable users seems like the proper way to go
    • after a lot of work, we've reformatted Setpedia so that it can be linked together with the VR closely. this change is now complete! Now mon's on the vr link to their sets on the setpedia (see more under setpedia later)
    • as a result of the above, and post feedback from multiple users, I've also reformatted the VR itself to remove the hide tags as I think it is now not as cluttered!
    • some of the mons may not be linked (usually those that have gone to UR, or come from UR). We will work on getting those set up. If you have suggestions at what sets should be included for them, we can check them out. In the meantime, for these mons, the top 3 is listed as before.
  • Setpedia
    • thanks to the efforts of the BHC and myself we have reformatted the Setpedia to be linked together with the VR
    • mons on the VR are given sets on the setpedia. these are divided into:
      • "viable sets": these are the sets that got the mon the rank they deserved
      • "other sets": these are more niche sets that are often seen on ladder or in discussion. They can be used but are not usually recommended
    • there are also links/bookmarks to a specific mon. No more scrolling!
  • Speed Tiers: I reformatted the speed tiers to be in a new format (without hide tags again! Listening to the feedback on that front again). I will work on the Slow Tiers later as I already feel like killing myself now after this work
  • Sample Teams: are updated from suggestions in the thread. Remember again, it's not just being an effective team on ladder, but being an intuitive one that newcomers can use! Also, some teams may be similar to each other, so in general I pick the one that was submitted first (make sure to submit yours quicker next time too!) or if it is unique or cool in some way
  • Banners: As promised from last time, I have created some more new banners! Check them out (I am proud of the Slow Tiers one). I will slowly try to get the rest
  • Willdbeast has joined BHC staff as a full member!
What's Next?
  • OM Analyses: are back up and we are slowly working on getting them QC'd. The team consists of the BHC and myself for now, but we may add other members as per demand later. We will also be working on improving our speed of response
  • Links to the OMPL and BH BanHappy Tours have been added in the OP. Check them out for some more BH replays and in the former case, check out some more high-quality meta play. The Post-OMPL Thread also contains a bunch of teams that you might want to check out!
  • Similar formatting treatment will be given to the slow tiers, and I am also thinking of reformatting the Role Compendium
Thanks for your patience!
 
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GL Volkner

reclaim your crown
is a Tiering Contributor
ok

i forgot about yveltal, fair enough
gyara is not common, it was used literally once in ompl and it's a very niche mon in general
aegi/regi just u turn into a revenge killer or stay in and recover
i mean yeah you can threaten to ohko dragons, but setting up on them is a really risky idea. spectral obviously stops you and core/waves from zyg do a million

how are you getting this hazard support? again you're assuming that you can afford to run mons that are more aggressive (otherwise you don't get rocks vs shed) when you're already railroaded into a) running an imposter proofer for zekrom and b) running hazard removal and an imposter proofer for this hazard setter. if you're going to have counterplay to all the offensive threats, this isn't a very feasible setup.

also cc has 8 pp like sunsteel


85 isn't an ohko. you know what is? this

252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kyurem-Black Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 494-584 (98 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

if we're assuming zekrom/kyub coming in on giratina, this is actually a huge difference. kyub gives you the freedom to run passive slow uturn mons. with zekrom, you can't do that because the giratina can just recover on the uturn and suddenly you can't kill him, you need like hazards + uturn mmx.


the kyub set is ice hammer/cc/bolt strike/filler. unless we're looking into shedinja or very rare fc users, it literally only needs these three attacks to hit everything. "coverage" doesn't really mean much here when kyub's coverage is as strong as zekrom's dragon hammer

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kyurem-Black Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 258-304 (58.1 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zekrom Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 244-288 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


yeah but you're running cc anyway which ohkos no matter what dragon it's on

the thing with kyub is that unlike any of zekrom's moves, ice hammer is such a spammable move that you don't get punished as much if you mispredict.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zekrom Dragon Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 103-122 (28.2 - 33.5%) -- 96% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kyurem-Black Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 126-149 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- 64.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

also, the other player can't switch in their fairy type after you click ice hammer, unlike with dragon hammer.

zekrom was used only once in ompl, and it lost. in comparison, kyub was used three times, winning two out of the three games.

i think zekrom is definitely worse than kyub, so it should drop a subrank.
Gyarados is the 20th most used Pokemon in Balanced Hackmons as of last month. 20's really impressive when you consider stuff like Kartana, MRay, and MMY are there to compete w/ for the usage spots.
Aegislash and Registeel U-turning is a losing play if your rker isn't diancie or kyub. staying in and recovering is also a losing play (we're talking about setting up here why is that the play at all? they just smash bolt strike and taunt and smash again/bolt again lol)
setting up on them isnt really risky.. if the opp has a zek check theyre gonna hard into it, if they dont you dont need to set up anyway bc they wont be able to handle it regardless

you run hazard support on other mons. yes, you can afford to run more aggressive or mold breaker mons - you're talking about the stuff you need on a zek team without compressing any of them. flash fire/unaware ferrothorn can do 2/3 of the things you listed, maybe all and at tha tpoint it's prob bad team building but the point that it can is there.

also cc hits more important stuff zek shouldnt be your shed counter but hitting thorn is good

its an ohko after p minimal chip lul not that hard to get? like ye kyub hits tina harder but it still isnt that difficult to get the required chip on tina so idt this matters all too much

you missed the point. it matters that it 2hkos steels w stabs bc that means if steels are still alive and your opp has no elec resists you can spam elec stab easily.

ice stab is spammable vs dino, it isnt as spammable vs Registeel. Bolt strike is spammable vs both, which zekrom gets stab on. Ice stab is spammable vs tina, bolt isnt but tina isnt switching in on zek anyway.

"Zekrom was only used once in OMPL and it lost. KyuB was used three times and it won two of them."

Alright this is the main reason I made this post. I guess if stuff has a higher winrate than other mons in ompl its suddenly more viable right?? In that case MDiancie to D, KyuB to S and MMY to A. It's pretty ridiculous to look at the raw statistic instead of looking at overall games, since the players vs kyub were generally not favored in mu. Ill refrain from commenting on the qt game he can do that himself
 
I didn't lose that game because of Zekrom. I lost because I spent the week prepping for an entirely different player, and had to scramble last minute to try and answer someone new because halliday decided to fuck off; this resulted in me being unprepared for Choice Specs Mega Gengar. Zekrom still managed to get 2 kills and could have won me the game if I got sleep turns.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-775820114
This is an example of the same team, in a different game (Vs Aki0s, SSNL Finals). It ended up shattering his defensive core, and almost got a xerneas as well before missing the roll. Kyub couldn't have done that, and I had one in both games!


E:
ice stab is spammable vs dino, it isnt as spammable vs Registeel. Bolt strike is spammable vs both, which zekrom gets stab on. Ice stab is spammable vs tina, bolt isnt but tina isnt switching in on zek anyway.
I mean...
Turn 18
aki0s! withdrew ChancE (Chansey)!
aki0s! sent out Greattimea (Giratina)!

Zekrom used Close Combat!
It doesn't affect the opposing Greattimea...

Turn 43
aki0s! withdrew ChancE (Chansey)!
aki0s! sent out Greattimea (Giratina)!

Zekrom used Bolt Strike!
It's not very effective...
The opposing Greattimea lost 35% of its health!

Turn 50
Kyurem, come back!
Go! Zekrom!

The opposing ChancE used U-turn!
Zekrom lost 5% of its health!

The opposing ChancE went back to aki0s!!
aki0s! sent out Greattimea (Giratina)!

Turn 67
Cresselia, come back!
Go! Zekrom!

The opposing ChancE used U-turn!
Zekrom lost 4% of its health!

The opposing ChancE went back to aki0s!!
aki0s! sent out Greattimea (Giratina)!


Turn 105
aki0s! withdrew ChancE (Chansey)!
aki0s! sent out Greattimea (Giratina)!

Zekrom used Dragon Hammer!
It's super effective!
The opposing Greattimea lost 57% of its health!

The opposing Greattimea fainted!
aki0s! sent out XernYASSSS (Xerneas)!
 
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Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

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This is an example of the same team, in a different game (Vs Aki0s, SSNL Finals). It ended up shattering his defensive core, and almost got a xerneas as well before missing the roll.
hmmm

Zekrom used Bolt Strike!
It's not very effective...
The opposing Greattimea lost 32% of its health!
The opposing Greattimea is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

The opposing Greattimea is paralyzed! It can't move!
Kyub couldn't have done that, and I had one in both games!
yeah it couldn't. and the reason for that is because you were using a totally different set, refrigerate, which is more comparable to galvanize zekrom if anything.

choice band kyub would have been able to kill gira without relying on chip, which zekrom needed. aside from that, it didn't really have a worse matchup than zekrom vs anything else.

ice hammer was more spammable than bolt strike in that game because aki0s's ice resist was the physically frail ogre while the electric resist was giratina, and imposter could easily switch in on a 4x resisted bolt strike from zekrom once it was revealed.
Gyarados is the 20th most used Pokemon in Balanced Hackmons as of last month. 20's really impressive when you consider stuff like Kartana, MRay, and MMY are there to compete w/ for the usage spots.
it's still used significantly less than other dark types. yveltal is at 16% and ttar at 15.5%, while gyara is only at 7.2%. you're less likely to run into gyara than you are shed, which zekrom needs significant team support to overcome if you're not running sunsteel.

Aegislash and Registeel U-turning is a losing play if your rker isn't diancie or kyub.
what about imposter??? prank steels + imposter is a really common combo and it shuts down zekrom no matter what you do. your only play is to hit them for 60 or whatever then switch out on imposter

you missed the point. it matters that it 2hkos steels w stabs bc that means if steels are still alive and your opp has no elec resists you can spam elec stab easily.
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kyurem-Black Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 200-236 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

unless ur opp is out here running mega aggron stab doesn't matter

Alright this is the main reason I made this post. I guess if stuff has a higher winrate than other mons in ompl its suddenly more viable right?? In that case MDiancie to D, KyuB to S and MMY to A.
this is a stupid strawman. i'm literally asking for a pokemon to be moved by 1 subrank, and it's not like ompl stats are irrelevant to the discussion
It's pretty ridiculous to look at the raw statistic instead of looking at overall games, since the players vs kyub were generally not favored in mu.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-763362749
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-786131531

here are the two replays where kyub won. while yeah you could argue that the players had some miscellaneous matchup advantages, like for example me having solid counterplay to halliday's offensive mons, there's no denying that kyub put in tons of work both games.

if anything the matchup point should be in its favor, because it shows that it's a mon that not many people prep for.

bottom text
 

GL Volkner

reclaim your crown
is a Tiering Contributor
it's still used significantly less than other dark types. yveltal is at 16% and ttar at 15.5%, while gyara is only at 7.2%. you're less likely to run into gyara than you are shed, which zekrom needs significant team support to overcome if you're not running sunsteel.
stealth rock support isnt significant, and gyara being less common than other darks doesnt make it uncommon? like it's still p common and common enough to be brought up, so i don't really understand what you're saying here.

what about imposter??? prank steels + imposter is a really common combo and it shuts down zekrom no matter what you do. your only play is to hit them for 60 or whatever then switch out on imposter
ye sure, imposter forces zek out. i forgot to include that. however, in that event you agree that youre likely clicking bolt strike, which leaves them unable to "check" zekrom again.

252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kyurem-Black Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 200-236 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

unless ur opp is out here running mega aggron stab doesn't matter
sure it does, bc being able to click your stab move on other targets is huge. kyub cant click its stab vs its intended targets without being concerned about registeel coming in. so sure it can still click its cb bolt strike in the same scenarios zekrom can, but in that event why not just use zekrom?

this is a stupid strawman.
not really. if you include it in your post, it's gonna get addressed.

i'm literally asking for a pokemon to be moved by 1 subrank, and it's not like ompl stats are irrelevant to the discussion
no, but you should look at the battles behind the stats and quite honestly more than just the raw numbers, bc there are factors involved in getting those raw numbers up. it's just like looking at the scoreline, seeing someone went 1-5 and assuming they're a bad player when in reality they got unlucky 3 of those games.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-763362749
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-786131531

here are the two replays where kyub won. while yeah you could argue that the players had some miscellaneous matchup advantages, like for example me having solid counterplay to halliday's offensive mons, there's no denying that kyub put in tons of work both games.
sure, kyub put in work. how does that make zekrom bad? i'm comparing zek to kyub to get it to keep a rank, im not trying to argue against a kyub rise...?

if anything the matchup point should be in its favor, because it shows that it's a mon that not many people prep for.
diancie is p common, so is mmx, kart etc. checks aren't lacking. the difference between kyub and zekrom is zekrom doesnt have a sr weakness and handles more offensive mons better.
 
uhh its not on here so nomming ditto for c/d rank (whatever whoever runs this shit thinks)


Ditto @ Quick Powder
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Lovely Kiss/Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Explosion/Taunt

suicide lead set is really all you'd want to use.
pros:
- IMPROOF. this is so cool for a suicide lead. when you run another suicide lead, getting chansey'd on is awful.
- fast. faster than mmy. WITH QUICKPOWDER HITS 428 SPEED
- effective rocker/sleeper. with turboblaze you can just sleep shit and set up hazards. and if you get defogged you can sleep that and then set up more hazards.
cons:
- no sash/frail
- in some matchups overrelies on lovely kiss
- slower than deos

id show replays of it but i dont save replays of me winning. when i look up my replays its all me losing. but this mon is very simple and easy to understand, and absolutely has a niche in bh.

s/o Adrian Marin for showing me this mon
 
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Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

went from brawl to melee, still mediocre
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uhh its not on here so nomming ditto for c/d rank (whatever whoever runs this shit thinks)


Ditto @ Quick Powder
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Lovely Kiss/Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Explosion/Taunt

suicide lead set is really all you'd want to use.
pros:
- IMPROOF. this is so cool for a suicide lead. when you run another suicide lead, getting chansey'd on is awful.
- fast. faster than mmy. WITH QUICKPOWDER HITS 428 SPEED
- effective rocker/sleeper. with turboblaze you can just sleep shit and set up hazards. and if you get defogged you can sleep that and then set up more hazards.
cons:
- no sash/frail
- in some matchups overrelies on lovely kiss
- slower than deos

id show replays of it but i dont save replays of me winning. when i look up my replays its all me losing. but this mon is very simple and easy to understand, and absolutely has a niche in bh.

s/o Adrian Marin for showing me this mon
ok i might b missing something but what does this offer over lum berry/mental herb deos? being able to run sleep+taunt on the same set sounds nice but the problem is that you're a lot weaker to priority, and you're also slower than stuff like deoa and phero. i'm not convinced it's worth it

252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ditto: 291-343 (97 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ditto: 289-341 (96.3 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Deoxys-Speed: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Deoxys-Speed: 203-239 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

stealth rock support isnt significant
it is if you're trying to get up hazards vs shed teams which means you can't just run it on some random fat mon and expect it to work. you need like mold breaker or good offensive pressure, which i'd say is pretty significant

kyub cant click its stab vs its intended targets without being concerned about registeel coming in.
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kyurem-Black Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 115-136 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 87.4% chance to 3HKO

you're barely losing any momentum in this situation actually. they have to recover here to avoid getting 2hkod the next time they come in. dragon hammer does like 25 so zekrom just gets forced out there

this is a stupid strawman.
not really. if you include it in your post, it's gonna get addressed.
ok hold on. so you say something ludicrous like
In that case MDiancie to D, KyuB to S and MMY to A.
knowing full well that that wasn't what i meant, and now you're putting the blame on me for bringing up ompl stats at all???

if you actually want a good argument, tell me why ompl stats are bad compared to other forms of bh, because other things don't seem very reliable to me in comparison. ladder replays can be cherry picked and often the other player isn't trying hard, theorymon is unreliable, and smaller tours have tiny sample sizes and run into the same issues as ladder replays. meanwhile we have 23 ompl replays where both players are trying their best
it's just like looking at the scoreline, seeing someone went 1-5 and assuming they're a bad player when in reality they got unlucky 3 of those games.
ok sure, but even then, we should look at something else: usage.

the fact that zekrom was only used once tells me that ompl-level players aren't confident in its ability to succeed. it's more equivalent to a manager choosing not to field a player, and it's not reliant on game factors. kyub was used three times out of 23 games, which puts it at about 11-12%. kind of a small sample size, but it showed that it can work.
 

GL Volkner

reclaim your crown
is a Tiering Contributor
it is if you're trying to get up hazards vs shed teams which means you can't just run it on some random fat mon and expect it to work. you need like mold breaker or good offensive pressure, which i'd say is pretty significant
it's not, really. fitting sr isn't hard at all if you're trying to work around shed teams.

252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Kyurem-Black Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 115-136 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 87.4% chance to 3HKO

you're barely losing any momentum in this situation actually. they have to recover here to avoid getting 2hkod the next time they come in. dragon hammer does like 25 so zekrom just gets forced out there
The only reason zek has dragon hammer is to deter tina - youll prob be clicking bolt strike more often anyway, if tina's coming in on zek then it's already done its job of being really hard to check bc tina shouldnt be switching in on zek


ok hold on. so you say something ludicrous like

knowing full well that that wasn't what i meant, and now you're putting the blame on me for bringing up ompl stats at all???
I mean, I'm not the one going like "this won more times so it's more viable", to say that at all implies a lot of shit that just shouldn't be true - replace the ranks w/ close ranks like a- a+ and a and it's still ridic, and that's bc winrate is not a good metric alone

if you actually want a good argument, tell me why ompl stats are bad compared to other forms of bh
they're not, but winrate isn't an independent factor in making a pokemon more viable. you need to look at the games too

, because other things don't seem very reliable to me in comparison. ladder replays can be cherry picked and often the other player isn't trying hard, theorymon is unreliable, and smaller tours have tiny sample sizes and run into the same issues as ladder replays. meanwhile we have 23 ompl replays where both players are trying their best
i agree ladder isn't a great factor either, but it's kinda important to look at the overall picture. not sure why you brought up winrate without looking at the games at all

ok sure, but even then, we should look at something else: usage.

the fact that zekrom was only used once tells me that ompl-level players aren't confident in its ability to succeed. it's more equivalent to a manager choosing not to field a player, and it's not reliant on game factors. kyub was used three times out of 23 games, which puts it at about 11-12%. kind of a small sample size, but it showed that it can work.
kyub does put work in, i'm not gonna lie. i really like the mon. but zekrom is also a good mon, it just had a bad showing where the team was put together a few hours before the match and the mu wasn't that good. it still puts in work quite frequently - as a vivid user of zekrom i have to say that while it didnt get an opportunity to put much work into ompl, the only reason i at least didnt use it was because flash fire ferrothorn was rising in popularity and i've used zekrom a lot, which didn't really make me feel confident that someone wouldn't prepare for it. for other people, i'm attributing it to lack of experience and stuff - afaik, there are very few people who actually use zek at a high level, so i'm not too surprised at all that it's not getting much usage bc in contrast, a lot of people have used kyub at one point. sure, that can imply kyub is more viable, but having used both i feel they're equally risk/reward - zek needs slightly more support, but i don't feel it's enough to drop it.
 

Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

went from brawl to melee, still mediocre
is a Community Contributor
zekrom vs kyub argument is getting stale

mmx to a+

this is definitely one of the best mons in the tier. it just has so many sets and even if you know the set it can still be a huge threat if you don't have specific defensive counterplay.

first off, the cb set is a huge threat on its own because it can run so many moves. you don't even need photon, you can just run like cc/spectral/ice hammer/sunsteel and it works. the only mon that walls pretty much anything it has is mega slowbro, which fears uturn.

then we add the mixed sets into the equation and you can see how scary this pokemon really is. technician and ate are both crazy good sets because they're so hard to switch into. contrary is more team specific because of imposter, but it can spiral out of control super quickly.

there really are no consistent answers to this pokemon. you can't really say this for something like gengar, which is a threat but definitely a very one-dimensional one.

slaking/regi to a-

slaking has been getting a bunch of hype recently but i don't really get it, it's literally just regi that lives mmx low kick like ???? it still loses to all the other things regi loses to.

everyone is prepared for the ph set at this point, with many teams having sleep immunity so this mon puts in almost no work. other sets are not a rank because they all lose to imposter.

i think this mon is definitely worse than xern at this point. yeah it does well vs hyper offense, but that's bad and uncommon.
 
I have to fully agree with SL42. It is completely baffling to me that Mega Mewtwo X is only A rank. It makes its mark due to the fact that it is the strongest Fighting-type in all of Pokemon. People look at it and compare it to Mega Mewtwo Y, but they're not comparable. Mega Mewtwo X's main niche is it's dual typing. While Mega Mewtwo Y is definitely a better Psychic-type and I guess a better Pokemon overall due to 140 base Speed, Mega Mewtwo X is much less easily walled.

People resort to using a mon which should technically be an unmon (Mega Sableye) just to have a chance at walling it, but even then if Mega Mewtwo X is Pixilate, then Mega Sableye is going to die. Mega Mewtwo Y has Specs and Tinted Lens alongside Contrary to hit Steel-types, but Mega Mewtwo X has Fighting-type STAB and can run Adaptability to further boost its power. The biggest reason it should be A+ is that Fighting-type STAB hits all bulky Steels, Psychic-type STAB hits all bulky Dragons, and you still have one or two coverage moves to hit niche Pokemon like Aegislash, Mega Sableye, and Mega Slowbro or other bulky Psychic-types. It also has STAB Photon Geyser which makes it top-tier. Mega Mewtwo X arguably gets more use out of Photon Geyser than Mega Mewtwo Y does because of the fact that Photon Geyser is the best Physical Psychic-type move.

Other than that...

Groudon: A- -> A

This is a great mon that is fairly underrated in the meta as it is. Walls Kyogre and can outright counter it if Groudon has Electric Terrain and Bolt Strike, can set a terrain up temporarily, annoys weather teams with Desolate Land, and it's one of the few Pokemon that can consistently fit Stealth Rock into it's moveset without losing any important coverage. I also believe it's defensive set is more viable than it's offensive set now because of the Illusion ban. Another cool thing about Groudon is that even though Sacred Fire is normally a weak move compared to V-Create, with Desolate Land it can be both strong and serve a utility purpose for the team in burning targets and thus crippling offensive targets while whittling down defensive ones.

Solgaleo: A- -> B+

Remind me why Solgaleo is A- while Dusk Mane is B+? Both are barely different at all and I don't believe the higher Speed justifies Solgaleo's spot in A-. Apart from Regenvest sets, Solgaleo is one mon that I believe is horribly overrated in the meta as it currently is, especially when compared to Dusk Mane. I've been using both on and off and neither Pokemon has impressed me as of recently. Normally for Solgaleo, it runs defensive sets, and it's neutrality to Fighting-type coverage is what draws its appeal other than trapping passive mons, but I've found that Solgaleo has more weaknesses than strengths. Occasionally, these Pokemon would even serve as a liability rather than actually assisting me, especially due to their weakness to the ever common Spectral Thief and vulnerability to Pursuit-trapping which is getting more common recently.

Nihilego: UR -> D Rank

It bothers me that Nihilego was removed from the viability rankings. Even though I felt like it was a very poor Special wall and that Mega Tyranitar was better as a specially defensive Sand Steam wall, I still feel it carves a niche in that it can check all -ate Pokemon except for Zekrom. It's somewhat passive, but it could even check Normgar too as it carried Revelation Dance and Topsy-Turvy. The problem was that Nihilego was hard to improof as Chansey would end up walling Nihilego and Poison Fang could poison allies if you didn't have a Poison Heal or Comatose Pokemon on the team.

Other than that... I think the Viability Rankings are just about what I'd expect. I guess I'd agree with Slaking going down in rank but I feel like the above Pokemon are more important to me.
 
magearna to B

shits broken man

pros
1. bulky
2. very nice typing in bh resists most -ates and also is immune to ate
3. can run either magic bounce or flash fire so you have to scout before you can hit it with a vcreate or try to put up rocks
4. magic bounce set checks regigigas/slaking/mgar/most sleep users
5. there's probably more but i haven't used it much but for the time I have it's been pretty good

cons
1. fire moves if not ff
2. shed
3. kart but what doesn't lose to kart?
4. that about it that i thought on the top of my head

all in all magearna is a pretty GOOD pokemon in bh and does not deserve to be C-
 
Right. Sometimes I legitimately forget that Rock doesn't resist Ice. My bad. As for Mega Mewtwo X, most people wouldn't switch Nihilego into it anyways because Refrigerate and Pixilate aren't as common as Band Adapt or Contrary sets. Also afaik even though the Sand Stream sets are mediocre, they still beat White Kyurem.

magearna to B

shits broken man
Magearna is hardly any different than other Steels. Solgaleo and Dusk Mane are both stronger than it, while not being nearly as slow. Fairy-type doesn't really help it at all when Steels already resist Dragon and Magearna still loses to most mons who carry Fighting coverage. People seem to gravitate towards Steel-types that are neutral to Fighting when in reality pretty much all of them will lose to the same mon, Mega Mewtwo X anyways.
 
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Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

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Magearna is hardly any different than other Steels. Solgaleo and Dusk Mane are both stronger than it, while not being nearly as slow. Fairy-type doesn't really help it at all when Steels already resist Dragon and Magearna still loses to most mons who carry Fighting coverage. People seem to gravitate towards Steel-types that are neutral to Fighting when in reality pretty much all of them will lose to the same mon, Mega Mewtwo X anyways.
something notable about gear is that you can counter ph mmx with bounce which is cool, dark resist is also very nice. gear has a significantly better typing than most walls

honestly the biggest flaw with it is its low bulk. being significantly less bulky than registeel hurts this mon a lot. ff is also weak to ground unlike celesteela so it has more trouble checking ates.

i'm not completely opposed to a rise, but not with this reasoning. all the pros listed apply to every bulky steel. what does gear do in particular? what makes it as valuable as celesteela's ground immunity?
 

morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Also afaik even though the Sand Stream sets are mediocre, they still beat White Kyurem.
The most common KyuW set is specs, which easily 2HKOs Sand Stream Nihilego with Boomburst (not to mention If Nihilego is anything but Levitate, any ground coverage would easily 2HKO or OHKO it). In fact, even Icicle Plate KyuW has a very good chance to 2HKO Sand Stream Nihilego after rocks (and this is assuming the KyuW doesn't have Earth Power which isn't really a good assumption). At least calc the damage before you say stuff like this...
 

spirit

Banned deucer.
I'd like to nominate Levitate Nihilego from unranked to D rank. It has a viable niche in the format in that it is able to check Diancie-M and Rayquaza-M that don't carry thousand arrows. Its bulk is good enough to withstand physical fire coverage (v-create):

252 Atk Diancie-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Nihilego: 140-165 (33.1 - 39%) -- 11% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Nihilego: 153-180 (36.2 - 42.6%) -- 96.6% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

It has a niche as being an ate wall that isn't a steel type. This allows you greater team flexibility in the same manner that Ho-oh or soundproof Slowbro-M operates.
 

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