BH Balanced Hackmons Central Resources

[Champion Leon]

This set seems pretty cool, but like the Belly Drum Slaking, its also walled by Unaware mons. I haven't done any calcs to see what it might miss out on, but wouldn't Mold Breaker be an alternative ability to Tough Claws? That way it is still self improof but isn't dead weight against things like Unaware Yveltal.

Edit: I guess you miss out on the 25% chance to OHKO +def Registeel without Tough Claws, but I'm not sure if I would count on that OHKO either.

In my original post in the creative and underrated thread, linked here, I explain that Technician can work for Mach Punch, Shadow Sneak and Ice Shard, Dazzling can work to make it Imposterproof and also threaten Priority Pokémon (just add Toxic Spikes so Imposter cannot use Struggle), and Mold Breaker can break Dazzling, Fur Coat, and Unaware.

Tough Claws is nice because it’s the best of each of the first two where it gets a boost like Technician, is Imposterproof like Dazzling, and as for Mold Breaker, I find that they rarely have an Unaware user as most people oft for Prankster Haze.

It just depends on team needs.

Also, I factor 1HKOs on Registeel and Giratina and Zygarde with 1 layer of Spikes or Stealth Rocks.

But ya, I don’t disagree.

Also most Registeel I come across are +SpD over +Def so it could go either way.

Bannette can do Tough Claws better than Kyurem-Black (outlines below), due Imposterproof Immunities and the fact it’s STAB gets a Tough Claws Boost, while Ice Shard doesn’t.

As for Mold Breaker, and Dazzling and Technician, some people may prefer Kyurem-Black, just based on the move Ice Shard KOing the Zygarde and Giratina Prankster users.
—————
Kyurem-Black is better for Non-Tough Claw sets since it’s Ice Shard handles Giratina and Zygarde (Bannette has STAB on Shadow Sneak to KO Tina, but needs Ice Shard to KO Zygarde), and frees up a slot for Storm Throw which 1HKOs all Steels besides Aegislash, in addition to 1HKOing Groudon-P, Fur Coat Chansey and pretty much anything neutral to Fighting. Calcs:

Hide

+6 252+ Atk Technician Kyurem-Black Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 378-446 (103.8 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Technician Kyurem-Black Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 668-788 (132.5 - 156.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Technician Kyurem-Black Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 1324-1564 (208.1 - 245.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO **THIS Means Fur Coat is also KOed**

+6 252+ Atk Technician Kyurem-Black Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 415-489 (99.7 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Technician Kyurem-Black Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 446-526 (100.4 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Fortunately, Kyurem-Black is at a Base Speed of 95, which outspeed the Base 90 Speed Tier, and of course Mega Garchomp, and bc you are faster: your Storm Throw can 1HKO Groudon-Primal going first, something Bannette couldn’t do with Extreme Speed unless it had Stealth Rocks.

As for Unaware Yveltal, Zygarde, Giratina, just use Mold Breaker Kyurem-Black:

Hide

+6 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 524-618 (114.9 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zygarde-Complete: 972-1144 (152.8 - 179.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 446-528 (88.4 - 104.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

You are no longer Imposterproof, but you have literally broken some Unaware mons with Priority moves, and since Kyurem-Black’s Mold Breaker would have Belly Drum, Ice Shard, and Mach Punch, the fourth move can be Filler to handle any other Unaware mons (such as Mega Audino, Arceus, Kyogre-Primal, Fur Coat Mega Slowbro, etc. being KO’d by Bolt Strike).

Kyurem-Black @ Normalium-Z
Ability: Technician / Mold Breaker / Dazzling
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 HP
- Belly Drum
- Ice Shard
- Mach Punch
- Storm Throw / Bonemerang / Bolt Strike / Extreme Speed

Storm Throw works for Technician as the best option, while Bonemerang 1HKOS all Steels besides Celesteela, and 1HKOs Cresselia, Arceus, Mega Slowbro (non-Fur Coat), etc.

+6 252+ Atk Technician Kyurem-Black Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 412-486 (104.5 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As for Mold Breaker, just use Bolt Strike to 1HKO Fur Coat Mega Slowbro, in addition to Unawares like Primal Kyogre, Mega Audino, and Arceus.

Extreme Speed is for Dazzling so it can avoid being outspeed by Prankster if paralyzed (such as switching into Nuzzle) and because it is the strongest neutral priority move.

If you defeat Imposter with a teammate, Kyurem-Black can do some serious KOs.

 

[DarkBeserker]

with OM!'s comment, i think banette should be moved to that ranking due to it pretty much has next to no switchins in the current meta. unless you wanna make a mon designed only to counter that mon.

 

[Rumors]

A little curious here, what are the advantages of this Kyu-B set over these two?

-Refrigerate Belly Drum Kyu-B, who can run stronger priority in Extreme Speed and run a secondary STAB in Return/Frustration to weaken Imposter and deal with opposing Dazzling or Boomburst for Fur Coat (not that it probably matters at max attack, but might be a consideration depending on the numbers.)

-Mewtwo-X on the same set, whose Ice Shard is weaker but has stronger everything else, especially Mach Punch and Storm Throw, and is less likely to be outsped by opposing Dazzling. Aside from specifically targeting Ice-weak opponents, since it does make a trade-off in being able to remove things like Prankster Regi while avoiding a Destiny Bond.


You also should either drop HP EVs to 248 or IVs to 30 to give yourself an odd number so Kyu-B can, if not taking damage, Belly Drum twice or switch into Stealth Rocks up to four times.

 

[Champion Leon]

A little curious here, what are the advantages of this Kyu-B set over these two?

-Refrigerate Belly Drum Kyu-B, who can run stronger priority in Extreme Speed and run a secondary STAB in Return/Frustration to weaken Imposter and deal with opposing Dazzling or Boomburst for Fur Coat (not that it probably matters at max attack, but might be a consideration depending on the numbers.)

-Mewtwo-X on the same set, whose Ice Shard is weaker but has stronger everything else, especially Mach Punch and Storm Throw, and is less likely to be outsped by opposing Dazzling. Aside from specifically targeting Ice-weak opponents, since it does make a trade-off in being able to remove things like Prankster Regi while avoiding a Destiny Bond.


You also should either drop HP EVs to 248 or IVs to 30 to give yourself an odd number so Kyu-B can, if not taking damage, Belly Drum twice or switch into Stealth Rocks up to four times.

The advantage of Technician over Refrigerate is that Mach Punch is Boosted to KO Prankster Haze Registeel, and Mach Punch can also KO others that resist Ice moves like Mega Gyarados. 120 Base power off of Mach Punch, rather than 183 / 2 = 93 Base power for Frustration.

For Dazzling, you don’t risk being KOed by Scarf Imposter, nor Pixelate or Aerilate Pokemon (or the Speed tie from opposing Kyurem-Black who may also use Fake Out). Remember, you are only at 50% HP after a Belly Drum, so Immunity is the only way to survive. Therefore you have to go first at all turns to survive enough to KO.

Mold Breaker is unquestionably going to have something over Refrigerate, so no need to explain how it bypasses Fur Coat, Unaware, Dazzling.

For MMX going first when you cut your HP to 50% is a huge risk, because MMX already is known for possibly having setup moves (Contrary), and already attracts Spectral Thief which it is weak to.
Kyurem-Black deters Giratina, a huge Spectral Thief user, and doesn’t always go first without Priority, letting some Spectral Thiefs from say Regigigas happen before it has used Belly Drum.
Also, Ice Shard off of MMX need Technician with hazards to accomplish what Kyurem-Black can do on its own.

+6 252 Atk Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 442-522 (87.6 - 103.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

MMX is also less bulky due to lower HP, and Kyurem-Black already KOs +Def Prankster Registeel, Giratina, Zygarde, Unaware Yveltal, etc. without any hazards, while MMX needs hazards to do the same.

I agree MMX gets STAB and is less vulnerable to Dazzling, but with a Jolly Nature Vs Kyurem-B’s Adamant nature, the difference in their STAB boosted Technician move is noticeable. Also, this means that Bonemerang, Extreme Speed, and Bolt Strike are dealing more damage, basically meaning MMX surpasses it in Fighting coverage damage only, but with Technician Kyurem-Black KOs what it needs to with either Fighting move anyways...

I agree with the EVs/IVs for HP and have edited the set to reflect that, so if people decide to Import it, it will be correct.
EDIT: Rumors, Actually I see that I did have 30 HP IVs all along so we are good.

Also before anyone says “but MMX can heal to 75% with Sitrus!” I wouldn’t suggest Sitrus Berry to MMX, and would rather say Normalium-Z since it can heal you to 100% and then Belly Drum, plus it cannot be Knocked Off or Tricked.

 

[ElMustacho]

Due to my current testing, I'll propose something... unusual.

Rayquaza to D

I'll keep it short; what in earth is ray doing that mray isn't? The answer is Tricking an Assault Vest without being stuck with Klutz.
That's really it, regular ray can do that thing and then mega evolve into megaray to get back the stats and get a non-absolutely-terrible ability. You can trick the assault vest the same turn you mega evolve, and the opponent can still use any status move the turn it receives the assault vest. But then all is definitive. I'll give some replays. (team isn't optimized for the strategy)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-854295800
Showing the combination, nothing else (I forfeit on turn 2).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-853723045
Tricking an assault vest to Xern stops it from boosting with quiver dance, avoiding the chance of it boosting and getting out of control.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-853728814
Despite losing, tricking an assault vest into aegislash stops it from using prank dbond, disallowing aegi to properly function as an improof to the enemy's mmy.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-853734283
This is the most awesome; ray tricks away eviolite from imposter, assault vest from regenvest zygarde and protective pads from shedinja; all of them being determinant in the victory as regenvest zygarde + imposter with bad items cannot stall my imposter and shedinja is KO-ed by an unexpected spiky shield from Chansey.

I forgot to save a replay where I use trick on a all status moves Deo-d and watch it become a struggle bait. Won that one.

I did 4 battles (the showoff doesn't count) and won 3 of them, at 1500-ish ladder.

So yeah, Rayquaza to D for having this niche.

Also deciding to mega without tricking allows mray to take some hits (well, one, but nobody expects that) from ice coverage, such as -ate espeed from kyu-w (never ohkoes at full), ice hammer from mmx (boosted by tc or band, but not both), ice beams from everything up to and including sf mmy (ice beam with rocks ohkoes 6.3% of the times). Stab moves kill the first 2, and mmy is physically frail and takes minimum 59% from neutral dascent; might rkill it. Can mega evolve in front of imposter and deal heavy damage with draco meteor; you outspeed it 100% of the times and deal lots of damage (minimum 67%) because imposter having klutz -> no scarf or eviolite. You live theirs too with AV.
Shuts down norm gengar like no one else too.

 

[Rumors]

It's a cool set and I definitely support it, but I don't think "single niche" currently qualifies for D-rank. There's some Pokemon with two or more niches who don't even get in. Some examples of good one/few niche mons include Aegis-Blade, Darm-Z, Heatran, Manectric-M, Charizard-Y. There's also a lot of manual mega-gimmicks like Gyarados, Mawile, Gardevoir, Salamence, etc. If Ray were to get to D-rank just for being able to Trick an AV and then ditch Klutz, then there's a good handful Pokemon, especially the more versatile ones, who really deserve to get out of UR too.

Meanwhile, it also does have some problems and drawbacks that I feel that should have been mentioned. I'm more than willing to bet you already realized these, but I feel drawbacks to a set should always be included in any set share.

-It requires both your ability and item slot to function.
-Dragon Ascent is a required move, so you must team build around that.
-Ray is allergic to opposing Knock Off and, to a lesser extent, Trick.
-It limits you from running Knock Off as an opponent could switch into it to shake off the vest.
-It also limits you from running multiple Trick users, although that's a rare strat.
-You're making your opponent tankier to special attacks. Especially notable since you have Draco Meteor.
-AV Regen, Z-Crystal, Primal Orb, Megastone, Multitype Plate Arceus, and Sticky Hold all check it (though the last isn't really relevant). I think there's a few other untrickable species/item combos I'm forgetting too.
--If the first attempt fails, you probably won't get Trick off unless their anti-Trick mon is weak to Ray or gets KOed.
-If the set ever became popular, it'd be identified instantly from team preview.
-Ray cannot Trick if it has AV after Mega-evolving. AV isn't a bad item, but you have a dead moveslot as a result. This is particularly an issue if you try to Trick multiple times and they predict and give the AV back.


Again though, its a cool set and one that could be devastating if pulled off right. I dunno if it'd take Ray to D-rank based on the current ranking precedents, however. I'm all for the set being listed somewhere, however. Even if it's like... a separate niche/gimmick section or something.

 

[Champion Leon]

It's a cool set and I definitely support it, but I don't think "single niche" currently qualifies for D-rank. There's some Pokemon with two or more niches who don't even get in. Some examples of good one/few niche mons include Aegis-Blade, Darm-Z, Heatran, Manectric-M, Charizard-Y. There's also a lot of manual mega-gimmicks like Gyarados, Mawile, Gardevoir, Salamence, etc. If Ray were to get to D-rank just for being able to Trick an AV and then ditch Klutz, then there's a good handful Pokemon, especially the more versatile ones, who really deserve to get out of UR too.

Meanwhile, it also does have some problems and drawbacks that I feel that should have been mentioned. I'm more than willing to bet you already realized these, but I feel drawbacks to a set should always be included in any set share.

-It requires both your ability and item slot to function.
-Dragon Ascent is a required move, so you must team build around that.
-Ray is allergic to opposing Knock Off and, to a lesser extent, Trick.
-It limits you from running Knock Off as an opponent could switch into it to shake off the vest.
-It also limits you from running multiple Trick users, although that's a rare strat.
-You're making your opponent tankier to special attacks. Especially notable since you have Draco Meteor.
-AV Regen, Z-Crystal, Primal Orb, Megastone, Multitype Plate Arceus, and Sticky Hold all check it (though the last isn't really relevant). I think there's a few other untrickable species/item combos I'm forgetting too.
--If the first attempt fails, you probably won't get Trick off unless their anti-Trick mon is weak to Ray or gets KOed.
-If the set ever became popular, it'd be identified instantly from team preview.
-Ray cannot Trick if it has AV after Mega-evolving. AV isn't a bad item, but you have a dead moveslot as a result. This is particularly an issue if you try to Trick multiple times and they predict and give the AV back.


Again though, its a cool set and one that could be devastating if pulled off right. I dunno if it'd take Ray to D-rank based on the current ranking precedents, however. I'm all for the set being listed somewhere, however. Even if it's like... a separate niche/gimmick section or something.

I agree, except Darm-Z is on the VR list. :)
Also one thing you didn’t mention. It takes the Mega Slot from something on the VR list: Kanga.

Due to my current testing, I'll propose something... unusual.

Rayquaza to D

I'll keep it short; what in earth is ray doing that mray isn't? The answer is Tricking an Assault Vest without being stuck with Klutz.
That's really it, regular ray can do that thing and then mega evolve into megaray to get back the stats and get a non-absolutely-terrible ability. You can trick the assault vest the same turn you mega evolve, and the opponent can still use any status move the turn it receives the assault vest. But then all is definitive. I'll give some replays. (team isn't optimized for the strategy)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-854295800
Showing the combination, nothing else (I forfeit on turn 2).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-853723045
Tricking an assault vest to Xern stops it from boosting with quiver dance, avoiding the chance of it boosting and getting out of control.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-853728814
Despite losing, tricking an assault vest into aegislash stops it from using prank dbond, disallowing aegi to properly function as an improof to the enemy's mmy.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-853734283
This is the most awesome; ray tricks away eviolite from imposter, assault vest from regenvest zygarde and protective pads from shedinja; all of them being determinant in the victory as regenvest zygarde + imposter with bad items cannot stall my imposter and shedinja is KO-ed by an unexpected spiky shield from Chansey.

I forgot to save a replay where I use trick on a all status moves Deo-d and watch it become a struggle bait. Won that one.

I did 4 battles (the showoff doesn't count) and won 3 of them, at 1500-ish ladder.

So yeah, Rayquaza to D for having this niche.

Also deciding to mega without tricking allows mray to take some hits (well, one, but nobody expects that) from ice coverage, such as -ate espeed from kyu-w (never ohkoes at full), ice hammer from mmx (boosted by tc or band, but not both), ice beams from everything up to and including sf mmy (ice beam with rocks ohkoes 6.3% of the times). Stab moves kill the first 2, and mmy is physically frail and takes minimum 59% from neutral dascent; might rkill it. Can mega evolve in front of imposter and deal heavy damage with draco meteor; you outspeed it 100% of the times and deal lots of damage (minimum 67%) because imposter having klutz -> no scarf or eviolite. You live theirs too with AV.
Shuts down norm gengar like no one else too.

What if the Pokémon you Trick to doesn’t care about assault vest? Sometimes even tricking Scarf can backfire as well. The could switch to something that could take advantage of it on the turn you believed you caught say a Fur Coat Chansey off guard.
It’s the type of surprise reliant strategy that wouldn’t work in a rematch, say on a slow Ladder day or Bo3 Tournament.
I feel that because you aren’t using Mega the opponent would know something is up and play conservatively as well.

I get that a lot when I use my Gyarados base form: “You can only Mega once.”
But at least Misty Surge helps my team in the event I have to switch out, as it’s guaranteed to be set. Plus the Mega ability is very useful and compliments its movesets.
——————
Going back to actual noms, I kinda feel like Lugia should be D and not UR.
People constantly compare Cresselia to it and I feel that having more resistances (like Grass, and a greater Fighting resist for Tinted Lens sets), as well as a Ground / Spikes / Toxic Spikes Immunity can help it work well to make up for its additional Flying weaknesses.
At the very least it could be a secondary option if you don’t want Bug weak walls that can wall Fighting, and/or Ground moves coming off Pheromosa, Beedrill, and friends.

Now, while Lugia is the Pokémon people only think of when they talk about other Pokémon, but it’s not so bad it shouldn’t be counted at all.

It has the ability to really take Special hits and can also use Roost to remove its Flying weakness if needed (such as versus Tough Claws Kyurem-Black) due to a fairly fast Speed Tier (or if using Prankster with minimum Speed EVs/IVs due to Core Enforcer).

There are certainly weaker Pokémon that are ranked for defensive purposes, and Lugia can fit teams better than or equal to some currently ranked D listed and UR nominated Pokémon.

I know this may be too late, but I figured it’s one Pokémon people agree with could be listed due to its ability to tank a lot more than many other walls.

Don’t cage this bird!

 

[ElMustacho]

[...]
-It requires both your ability and item slot to function.
-Dragon Ascent is a required move, so you must team build around that.
-Ray is allergic to opposing Knock Off and, to a lesser extent, Trick.
-It limits you from running Knock Off as an opponent could switch into it to shake off the vest.
-It also limits you from running multiple Trick users, although that's a rare strat.
-You're making your opponent tankier to special attacks. Especially notable since you have Draco Meteor.
-AV Regen, Z-Crystal, Primal Orb, Megastone, Multitype Plate Arceus, and Sticky Hold all check it (though the last isn't really relevant). I think there's a few other untrickable species/item combos I'm forgetting too.
--If the first attempt fails, you probably won't get Trick off unless their anti-Trick mon is weak to Ray or gets KOed.
-If the set ever became popular, it'd be identified instantly from team preview.
-Ray cannot Trick if it has AV after Mega-evolving. AV isn't a bad item, but you have a dead moveslot as a result. This is particularly an issue if you try to Trick multiple times and they predict and give the AV back.
[...]

- so does a lot of stuff; regenvest, sf lorb mmy, specs -ate boomburst, red orb pdon, ph...
- dragon ascent is a good move to begin with, it's not a problem
- I don't see how ray is allergic to knock off or trick. It can get an item back from almost everything, and having trick means you can deal with trick users.
- and every time they predict koff and I don't use it, they throw momentum away. You only need to use it more carefully, it creates mind games
- trick is already rare to begin with
- i'll take facing ff av Registeel over ff Registeel with shore up every day, who cares about the bulk if they can't heal it
- you still at least scout them. Arceus cannot lose a plate no matter the ability, name a common enough mon that can mega AND takes 2 hits from ray/mray, primals with orbs get 2hkoed, griseus orb tina cannot take draco meteor twice
- being trick-immune and not weak to ray is really difficult
- it still gives the opponent the doubt (when instead of what). Might make him/her misplay. Also it's not like all other sets are impossible to predict
- nobody forces ray to mega evolve if you aren't satisfied with the trick situation

All in all, having the gimmick: disable many walls by stopping recovery is pretty damn good niche, and then some others

 

[Rumors]

Mind, I said I liked the set. I was mainly pointing out the weaknesses, whether they're share with other sets or not, since you didn't as I think it's generally a good idea since new and inexperienced players may be reading and not having those details makes it harder for them to build properly if they want to try the set out for themselves. (And harder for experienced players too since they still gotta figure it out themselves.)

And, despite having a rather strong niche when it can be pulled off, there's still a lot of other strong mevo gimmicks and the like that are UR that can 6-0 an opponent if pulled off properly and are (sometimes) a bit more flexible too. Again, unless D-rank is made more inclusive than it is now, or we get an "E rank", I don't feel that set qualifies based on current precedence and it'd be pretty disingenuous to include it over other UR mons that have seen successful high ladder and/or tournament play.

Argue-y stuff

-On the D-Ascent and ability stuff, you miss my point a little, I feel. PH and stuff do have some requirements, but are rather flexible in their use. Doing a "Klutz Mevo set" requires you to use Ray, requires AV, requires Klutz, requires Trick, and requires Dragon Ascent. That leaves you with two move slots to play with. Contrast, P.Don has all four moveslots and a one-shot ability slot, PH has all four moveslots and can be on many Pokemon, -ate Boomburst only requires an ability and moveslot and there's a few users of each version of varying viability, SF Lorb MMY has MMY who is unpredictable until you know the set and also three moveslots, and Regenvest works on a number of Pokemon and has all four moveslots. The Ray-Klutz set is rather limited. Closest comparison is Mega-Mom, but she makes all those trades to 2HKO almost the entire meta, which is ridiculously strong.

-D.Ascent is strong, but weakens your defenses and is a Flying move. Flying coverage is pretty bad and the type is only strong because of Mega-Ray's insane stats, particularly coupled with an item and ability to make your resists pointless. It's in a similar boat as Psychic: crap coverage but amazing STAB users. Either way, unboosted D.Ascent isn't that impressive.

-The catch of being "allergic" is, if they remove the Assault Vest, you lose your ability to shut down a passive Pokemon, which is the main part of the gimmick. You still have Trick to get other items, but then you're just any old Trick user except with a worse ability.

-Mind games work both ways. They can get you into 50/50 situations too. Like, an opponent is right in front of you that you really need to Koff otherwise it'll wreck your face. But they can also switch into Koss to rid that AV you gave them. You mispredict and you'll be in trouble. Of course, they miss and they'll be in trouble.

-Primal Groudon can take two hits from Ray, can potentially Intimidate on the switch, and can potentially use Morning Sun or similar to heal 75%, enabling them to easily take two hits and survive. They also sometimes run Draco Meteor too. Mawile is also not 2HKOed and almost always runs a Mega-gimmick and, if it's OM!'s set, it'll sleep you too. And that's with Adamant D.Ascent as Mega-Ray too, it gets easier if you're stuck as regular Ray.

-Being Trick and not weak to ray is easy: Z-Crystal. Dialga, Duskmane, and Solgaleo all sometimes run Steelium-Z, for example, and resist both STABs. Registeel sometimes runs Z-Haze.

-And Ray isn't forced to Mevo, but its power is a lot lower without MEVOing. Which can be a problem if you really need to increment a KO, like turning a 3HKO into a 2HKO, but also still need Trick to disable a target.


Again, I like the set. It's clever. But it really does have some weaknesses.

 

[Champion Leon]

Hide

THE WALLS

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete in Heavy Rain: 680-800 (106.9 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Greninja-Ash Night Daze vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 440-520 (87.3 - 103.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

THE DEFENSIVE CHECKS

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Greninja-Ash Night Daze vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 292-344 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 464-548 (65.9 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

THE “FASTER” Checks

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Pheromosa in Rain: 348-414 (100.5 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Beedrill-Mega in Rain: 258-306 (77.2 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega in Rain: 468-552 (128.5 - 151.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Adaptability Greninja-Ash Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 328-388 (78.8 - 93.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

WEATHER CHANGER

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Greninja-Ash Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 380-448 (94 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Soundproof who?

Adaptability Ash-Greninja KOs the metagame and doesn’t even care about being +SpA, still outspeeding Ray at 363 Speed, and threatening MMY with Sucker Punch. Got a question? Ash-Greninja is your answer.

Even Pokémon like Red Orb Groudon can’t switch into Dark Pulse, and Zygarde-Complete is 1HKOed, while Mega Beedrill and Mega Aerodactyl can’t risk Water Shuriken under Rain either, breaking their Focus Sash in the process. The set would be:

Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability / Download / Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Water Spout
- Night Daze
- Sucker Punch / Moongeist Beam
- Steam Eruption / Water Shuriken

Overpower, cover your resists, outspeed MMY or KO Shedinja, hit standard damage or have a secondary priority prepared.

While having Rain support might seem tedious, the payoff is huge, as only Red Orb Groudon carries Desolate Land, meaning even resists take hefty damage:

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina in Rain: 263-310 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Adaptability can also be replaced with Download or Soul-Heart to gain even more power with the trade offs impacting the set (remove Sucker Punch if using Soul-Heart).

This is the only Pokémon that can do this, as Primal Kyogre and Palkia lack Dark STAB, and the Speed to use the offensive Abilities.
As the fastest Dark-Type, Greninja can outspeed what it needs to one way or another (Speed or Priority moves), and uses brute force rather than rely on Super Effective hits.

Tinted Lens can also be used to bypass resists, since only Red Orb Groudon would be able to safely switch into a direct Water Spout:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina in Rain: 432-510 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Pick your power ability, in order of importance:

#1. Adaptability
#2. Tinted Lens
#3. Download
#4. Soul-Heart

Now bear in mind, Water Spout, unlike -ates, can be supported by a weather (although Boomburst can be supported by Galvanize + Electric Surge), doesn’t require an ability slot and therefore can abuse Tinted Lens, plus it cannot be blocked except by Desolate Land (Water Absorb and similar abilities are never used).

Soundproof is common enough, and Steels that resist the -ates are common enough, where Water Spout can break through with Tinted Lens when supported by Rain.

—————
I nominate Tinted Lens to be added to Greninja-Ash’s ability listing, for a Water Spout Set, possibly a Setpedia, since it’s power surpasses Specs Mega Rayquaza thanks to Rain, and is really only surpassed by Contrary sets.

Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash / Timid Nature
- Water Spout
- Moongeist Beam / Pursuit
- Earth Power
- Steam Eruption

STAB for power, Earth Power for Red Orb Groudon, Moongeist Beam for Shedinja, Steam Eruption for consistent damage and Pursuit might be a cool surprise if you send in Greninja-Ash on a slow pivot and they predict Water Spout and you Pursuit them on their switch.

 

[SuperSkylake]

nominating xerneas to move from A- to A+
People have lately been trying out new moves on the Poison Heal set, since you really only need Quiver Dance and Moonblast to be effective. That's because Fairy on its own is an awesome STAB and QD means that Xerneas can boost to levels where non-unaware walls are killed despite resistances. That leaves space for two moves, and the versatility is insane. Remember, Xerneas can run any two of these moves and be effective. The most notable moves:

Earth Power: hits Registeel, mega gengar, dialga, Pdon, Mega Steelix, Mega Aggron
Magma Storm: hits Registeel, Mega Steelix, Mega Aggron, kills Shed, can beat non-imp Chansey when combined with lucky sleep or paralysis rolls
Spikes: weakens grounded steels on switchin. It is quite easy to set up three layers against unprepared opponents. After you set the spikes, it is easy for Xerneas or another wallbreaker to clean up since most grounded walls can't handle three layers of spikes damage and avoid the 2hKO. This is actually the move that sets Xerneas over the edge, because it lets xerneas sweep and provide insane team support all on the same set. Good luck finding a rapid spinner on the viability rankings, besides Magic Guard Ho-Oh, that can actually remove those spikes
Toxic Spikes: Can also support teams. THis is useful along with Mega Gengar for hex + merciless spam.
Spore/Lovely Kiss: has become way less effective now that people are adapting to sleep. Still, the possibility of running it means you need a sleep absorber that can beat Xerneas or you'll lose to it.
Nuzzle: A very useful move, ensuring that Xerneas will get free turns to set up or attack. Since no relevant Ground-type wants to switch into a moonblast, Nuzzle is safe to run, as it goes through Magic Bounce.
Substitute: Yes, Xerneas can even fit room for Substitute, but it will probably easily get broken thanks to Steels' access to Anchor Shot which cracks it in 1 hit. IT's very useful against Topsy Turvy users though, so worth mentioning.

How to stop it:
Unfortunately there is no true counter. The best one is probably Magic Guard Ho-Oh, but Xerneas can set spikes on it or set up with Quiver Dance. After 2 quiver dances, Moonblast does about 30%, whereas Ho-Oh's Anchor Shot does about 35% back which becomes 23 after Poison Heal (a 5H KO).. After factoring in that Ho-Oh will have to heal at least once during this sequence, you can see that Ho-Oh does win against Xerneas, but barely.


Flash Fire Ferrothorn is another good counter, but it again can't prevent spikes being set up, and can be slept via lovely kiss.

Flash Fire Celesteela, again, can't prevent spikes being set up, and since it usually runs Defog, it for hazard control, Spikes will out-pp it easily.

Other Flash Fire Steel types suffer from the same faults as Celesteela, but Earth Power will kill them.

Unaware Chansey: this has a pretty okay chance of walling Xerneas, but killing it, definitely not. It also, again, can't prevent spikes setup.

Magic Bounce Magearna: If it can get in successfully at the same time as Xerneas and Xerneas has no boosts, it can at least Worry Seed Xerneas, block its sleep moves and also bounce Spikes, but takes a huge number from +1 Earth Power or Magma Storm which will wear it down easily.

Magic Bounce Ho-Oh is a good counter, if you can keep Stealth Rock off the field. Unfortunately, if Xerneas runs Nuzzle, lucky Paralysis roles can take Ho-Oh out of the game.

In my opinion, Xerneas might be the most reliable spikes setter in the current metagame because no bouncer wants to switch into it and get set up on or trapped or whatever. This is why it deserves the promotion.

 

[Champion Leon]

nominating xerneas to move from A- to A+
People have lately been trying out new moves on the Poison Heal set, since you really only need Quiver Dance and Moonblast to be effective. That's because Fairy on its own is an awesome STAB and QD means that Xerneas can boost to levels where non-unaware walls are killed despite resistances. That leaves space for two moves, and the versatility is insane. Remember, Xerneas can run any two of these moves and be effective. The most notable moves:

Earth Power: hits Registeel, mega gengar, dialga, Pdon, Mega Steelix, Mega Aggron
Magma Storm: hits Registeel, Mega Steelix, Mega Aggron, kills Shed, can beat non-imp Chansey when combined with lucky sleep or paralysis rolls
Spikes: weakens grounded steels on switchin. It is quite easy to set up three layers against unprepared opponents. After you set the spikes, it is easy for Xerneas or another wallbreaker to clean up since most grounded walls can't handle three layers of spikes damage and avoid the 2hKO. This is actually the move that sets Xerneas over the edge, because it lets xerneas sweep and provide insane team support all on the same set. Good luck finding a rapid spinner on the viability rankings, besides Magic Guard Ho-Oh, that can actually remove those spikes
Toxic Spikes: Can also support teams. THis is useful along with Mega Gengar for hex + merciless spam.
Spore/Lovely Kiss: has become way less effective now that people are adapting to sleep. Still, the possibility of running it means you need a sleep absorber that can beat Xerneas or you'll lose to it.
Nuzzle: A very useful move, ensuring that Xerneas will get free turns to set up or attack. Since no relevant Ground-type wants to switch into a moonblast, Nuzzle is safe to run, as it goes through Magic Bounce.
Substitute: Yes, Xerneas can even fit room for Substitute, but it will probably easily get broken thanks to Steels' access to Anchor Shot which cracks it in 1 hit. IT's very useful against Topsy Turvy users though, so worth mentioning.

How to stop it:
Unfortunately there is no true counter. The best one is probably Magic Guard Ho-Oh, but Xerneas can set spikes on it or set up with Quiver Dance. After 2 quiver dances, Moonblast does about 30%, whereas Ho-Oh's Anchor Shot does about 35% back which becomes 23 after Poison Heal (a 5H KO).. After factoring in that Ho-Oh will have to heal at least once during this sequence, you can see that Ho-Oh does win against Xerneas, but barely.

Flash Fire Ferrothorn is another good counter, but it again can't prevent spikes being set up, and can be slept via lovely kiss.

Flash Fire Celesteela, again, can't prevent spikes being set up, and since it usually runs Defog, it for hazard control, Spikes will out-pp it easily.

Other Flash Fire Steel types suffer from the same faults as Celesteela, but Earth Power will kill them.

Unaware Chansey: this has a pretty okay chance of walling Xerneas, but killing it, definitely not. It also, again, can't prevent spikes setup.

Magic Bounce Magearna: If it can get in successfully at the same time as Xerneas and Xerneas has no boosts, it can at least Worry Seed Xerneas, block its sleep moves and also bounce Spikes, but takes a huge number from +1 Earth Power or Magma Storm which will wear it down easily.

Magic Bounce Ho-Oh is a good counter, if you can keep Stealth Rock off the field. Unfortunately, if Xerneas runs Nuzzle, lucky Paralysis roles can take Ho-Oh out of the game.

In my opinion, Xerneas might be the most reliable spikes setter in the current metagame because no bouncer wants to switch into it and get set up on or trapped or whatever. This is why it deserves the promotion.

I agree, but I know some others could be listed as options to handle Xerneas.

Hide

Kyogre-Primal can use Poison Heal to stop Lovely Kiss, and Leech Seed + Quiver Dance to add to its healing and eventually overpower it.

Magic Bounce Dialga can also come in before it boosts to bounce back Spikes, Spore, and threaten with a Z-Doom Desire.

252 SpA Xerneas Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga: 144-170 (35.6 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

What about Primordial Sea Scizor-Mega? Not weak to Earth Power, resists Moonblast, and immune to Fire moves. Safety Goggles can block Spore, while Sunsteel Strike can KO Xerneas.

Want it to handle Spikes? It switching in, will deter Xerneas from staying in and using Spikes. Spectral Thief can remove boosts as well.

252 Atk Scizor-Mega Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 296-350 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Xerneas Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Scizor-Mega: 129-152 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It may have Spectral Thief, Shore Up, Sunsteel Strike, and a Filler, which would hardstop Xerneas.
———
On the VR, while rarely used, Flash Fire Venusuar-Mega pretty much counters this perfectly: Immunity to Magma Storm and Spore, absorbs Toxic Spikes, resists Moonblast, etc.

A Setpedia moveset isn’t listed for this VR Pokémon, but if it used Worry Seed/Entrainment/Gastro Acid, Spectral Thief, etc. it can further put Xerneas in its place. It also can use Poison STAB for utility (Clear Smog), or for more powerful Super Effective damage against it like Sludge Wave or Venoshock, as a coverage hit vs a Fairy-type.
Niche, but definetely something that happens to function particularly well against Xerneas, intended or not.
—————
As for Celesteela, according to the Setpedia, it could just run Entrainment and Anchor Shot, which pairs well with Spectral Thief in its moveset. Thanks to Entrainment, it can stall out Toxic Damage on Xerneas once it is trapped with Anchor Shot, staying awake with Safety Goggles, and Spectral Thiefing any boosts. Since it is a Flying-Type, it won’t be impacted by switching into Spikes, and a teammate can Rapid Spin or Defog later on.

Likely the same or similar can be said about Flash Fire Entrain Ferrothorn.

I agree Lovely Kiss can bypass Grass and Safety Goggles Immunity, but it also has to land the hit and not get Anchor Shot in the process

Overall, good posts, you also made great points!

 

[a loser]

I agree, but I know some others could be listed as options to handle Xerneas.

Hide

Kyogre-Primal can use Poison Heal to stop Lovely Kiss, and Leech Seed + Quiver Dance to add to its healing and eventually overpower it.

Magic Bounce Dialga can also come in before it boosts to bounce back Spikes, Spore, and threaten with a Z-Doom Desire.

252 SpA Xerneas Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga: 144-170 (35.6 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

What about Primordial Sea Scizor-Mega? Not weak to Earth Power, resists Moonblast, and immune to Fire moves. Safety Goggles can block Spore, while Sunsteel Strike can KO Xerneas.

Want it to handle Spikes? It switching in, will deter Xerneas from staying in and using Spikes. Spectral Thief can remove boosts as well.

252 Atk Scizor-Mega Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 296-350 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Xerneas Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Scizor-Mega: 129-152 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It may have Spectral Thief, Shore Up, Sunsteel Strike, and a Filler, which would hardstop Xerneas.
———
On the VR, while rarely used, Flash Fire Venusuar-Mega pretty much counters this perfectly: Immunity to Magma Storm and Spore, absorbs Toxic Spikes, resists Moonblast, etc.

A Setpedia moveset isn’t listed for this VR Pokémon, but if it used Worry Seed/Entrainment/Gastro Acid, Spectral Thief, etc. it can further put Xerneas in its place. It also can use Poison STAB for utility (Clear Smog), or for more powerful Super Effective damage against it like Sludge Wave or Venoshock, as a coverage hit vs a Fairy-type.
Niche, but definetely something that happens to function particularly well against Xerneas, intended or not.
—————
As for Celesteela, according to the Setpedia, it could just run Entrainment and Anchor Shot, which pairs well with Spectral Thief in its moveset. Thanks to Entrainment, it can stall out Toxic Damage on Xerneas once it is trapped with Anchor Shot, staying awake with Safety Goggles, and Spectral Thiefing any boosts. Since it is a Flying-Type, it won’t be impacted by switching into Spikes, and a teammate can Rapid Spin or Defog later on.

Likely the same or similar can be said about Flash Fire Entrain Ferrothorn.

I agree Lovely Kiss can bypass Grass and Safety Goggles Immunity, but it also has to land the hit and not get Anchor Shot in the process

Overall, good posts, you also made great points!

You forgot to mention Levitate Nihilego, who resists Moonblast and Magma Storm and is immune to Earth Power. Keep in mind this won't absorb Toxic Spikes, however. (Also watch out for the rare Thousand Arrows Xern)

 

[DarkBeserker]

yeah but who would even run levitate Nihilego, because thats neiche

 

[Champion Leon]

You forgot to mention Levitate Nihilego, who resists Moonblast and Magma Storm and is immune to Earth Power. Keep in mind this won't absorb Toxic Spikes, however. (Also watch out for the rare Thousand Arrows Xern)

True, but-

yeah but who would even run levitate Nihilego, because thats neiche

I guess since it’s on the Setpedia... but overall- totally correct. Perfect point.

Quick question: since Nihilego is 4x weak to ground, does that mean Thousand Arrows will still deal neutral damage on the first hit? Wasn’t sure since it says neutral on the first hit even if Super Effective on bulbapedia, but wanted to confirm since it might be based on 2x weak Pokémon like Aerodactyl.

 

[urkerab]

Quick question: since Nihilego is 4x weak to ground, does that mean Thousand Arrows will still deal neutral damage on the first hit? Wasn’t sure since it says neutral on the first hit even if Super Effective on bulbapedia, but wanted to confirm since it might be based on 2x weak Pokémon like Aerodactyl.

The neutral damage on the first hit only applies to airborne Flying types.

 

[SomeIrish]

Been a while since I've done anything in BH, busy with other interests but something that I want to talk about wth my brief return is Poison Heal MMY. It serves as a strong check to Poison Heal Xerneas, forcing it out with strong Psystrikes that don't give its Quiver Dances the time of day as it sets up its own or removes/steals the ones that Xerneas has. With MMY's high special defense it can take a hit from Xerneas even after boosting up a bit
+4 252 SpA Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 325-384 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Though only gets a 3hko without boosts by using Psystrike
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 181-214 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It's a pretty good late game cleaner too, has problems with shed if you pick a set without Moongeist Beam though and whatever flavor of steel type if you don't pick the right coverage move. You can also run more of a support set that I think has really good potential that I saw Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request) using (which was a total pain to kill btw) with Taunt to annoy a ton of defensive mons and stop setup if you predict right. That's all for now though, probably gonna come back in a few months or whenever gen 8 comes out

 

[E4 Flint]

Announcements:

• VR is updated based on Community Feedback (see changelog): Link
• The completed analyses was updated with new ones and staff members, and also got a nice facelift!: Link

The next steps will be revamping the Role Compendium and the Slow Tiers' formatting. I invite the community to discuss how the RC should be laid out and what should be included in it!

We will also be reaching out for updated samples soon. My plan of action is to perform an update after the current Sleep Clause suspect wraps up with a more specific timeframe depending on its outcome.

Thanks guys

 

[Ren]

some role compendium suggestions at Funbot28's request oo

Role Compendium​

This resource lists some viable users for a specific role. This is not a conclusive list so feel free to suggest add-ons/build from here!

Note: Everything here is ordered by Name, not Viability.

General Roles:
(Offense)
Wallbreakers:

Hide

Adaptability:

add mega rayquaza, zekrom (potentially) and mega tyranitar. remove mega sceptile.

Aerilate:

Galvanize:

Normalize:

remove gigas and slaking

Pixilate:

Refrigerate:

Sheer Force:

remove all of these except for mega mewtwo y.

Steelworker:

Sturdy:

Technician/Skill Link:

mmx should be the only mention here, the rest are unviable.

Tinted Lens:

tinted is an oo on analysis for mmx, idk if that warrants a mention here or not because the role compendium seems pretty weird atm.

Tough Claws:

add zekrom, kyub, kartana, mega ray, mega beedrill, mega blaziken and potentially mega tyrannitar. remove regigigas and slaking.

potentially add a mold breaker category for mblaze and mchomp.

Setup Sweepers:

Hide

APS*:

remove sceptile imo. add

Contrary:

add unecro.

Poison Heal:

Simple:

remove lunala. potentially add blue moon.

Triage:

remove marshadow, mega pidgeot and potentially mmx.

Unburden:

remove lunala and ashgren.

(Balance)
Stallbreakers:

Hide

Mold Breaker (Status):

remove deos.

Mold Breaker (Offense):

mmy

Parental Bond**:

Perish Trap:

mega gengar's outdated, remove.

(Defensive)
Defensive Pivots:

Hide

Fur Coat:

remove fini if it's unranked? unsure if it still is

Magic Bounce:

mbounce aegi is svkk

Poison Heal:

idk where mmx would go but i would put it here potentially

Regenerator:

Setup Checks

Hide

Imposter:

Prankster:

add giratina, remove mega venusaur.

Unaware:

Specific Roles:

Hide

Gengar-Mega Checks:

remove muk, and i'd remove tyranitar as well due to sword mgar being nearly ubiquitous.

Groudon-Primal Checks:

buzzwole wat.jpeg, remove. mgyara isnt a good check either, as is kyogre.

Kyogre-Primal Checks:

remove aegislash and mega venusaur.

Psychic Checks:

Rayquaza-Mega Checks:

add mega diancie

Zygarde-Complete Checks:

remove aegislash and buzzwole, add mega diancie.

Imposter-Proof Setup Sweepers:

Hide

{Multitype w/ Spooky Judgment, Poison Heal w/ Status} soundproof set

{Spooky Judgment, Normalize w/ Ghostium-Z}

{Unburden w/ Belly Drum Sitrus Berry + Fire Attack(s)}

{Simple w/ Spooky Judgment, Unburden w/ Imprison} remove this

{Dry Skin w/ Flame Judgment} ...remove, idk how this got here ngl

{APS w/ Ghost Multi-Attack, Triage w/ Ghost Multi-Attack} remove marshaodw

{Contrary w/ Scarf, Quick Feet w/ Flame Orb} quick feet is pretty bad and scarf contra is only situationally self improof, remove this entirely.

{Poison Heal w/ Status} add kyogre, xerneas, mega tyranitar, mega gyarados and other ph sweepers`

{Scarf Contrary} mscept of all things shoudlnt be running scarf

{Unburden w/ Imprison and White Herb}

{Galvanize w/ Draco Judgment} outdated

{Poison Heal w/ Status} not really a sweeper

Banned:

Hide

Primal Groudon {Pixilate, Galvanize, Refrigerate, Tinted Lens, APS, Kyogre-Primal Checks, Imposter-Proof Sweepers}

Innards Out***:

Psychic Surge: (Banned)

Shadow Tag*this should be two asteriks:(Banned)

Stakeout: (Banned)

Water Bubble: (Banned)

* Anti-Priority Setup: The use of Dazzling/Queenly Majesty/Psychic Surge (before its ban) and setup like Shell Smash
** Must use Mega-Evolution/Primal Reversion
*** Key mons listed, but this was used on anything during time of Ban

e:

We will also be reaching out for updated samples soon.

who needs updated samples when you have the critically acclaimed vd sample approved by bh connoisseur highlighter himself t b h

 

[aki0s]

some role compendium suggestions at Funbot28's request oo


e:

who needs updated samples when you have the critically acclaimed vd sample approved by bh connoisseur highlighter himself t b h

I have been dead for many months, but I must nitpick some suggestions:

1: Kyurem-B is a great skill-link user.
Take this example set:
Kyurem-Black @ King's Rock / Expert Belt
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Bullet Seed
- Bone Rush
- Stealth Rock
Not many things can switch in on this. There are only 4 common things that would switch in on this, namely: Ho-oh; Celesteela; Chansey; Audino. Of these, only Fur Coat Chansey and Fur Coat Audino have a chance of actually surviving and doing something back.
Example calcs:
252 Atk Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 200-240 (48 - 57.6%) -- approx. 92.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 180-215 (45.2 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rocks
252 Atk Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 165-200 (23.4 - 28.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Audino-Mega: 80-95 (19.5 - 23.1%) -- approx. 6.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
(Ignoring the fact that no-sane person runs +def Ho-oh, Celesteela or Audino)
Taking further into account other variables such as flinch chance from kings rock and things start to look a bit grim for many teams. In short: I disagree with removing Kyurem-B as a user of skill link.

2: Buzzwole is a check to Primal-Groudon.
It's a niche check, but it does offer an option against it. Notably: you have to use either flash fire or primordial sea. Also, the immortal dictate of user Motherlove prevents Buzzwole from being removed.

Thanks for reading.

 

[a loser]

I'm glad Beedrill is finally good enough to earn two spots on the VR

E4: fixed thanks!

 

[Ren]

I have been dead for many months, but I must nitpick some suggestions:

1: Kyurem-B is a great skill-link user.
Take this example set:
Kyurem-Black @ King's Rock / Expert Belt
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Bullet Seed
- Bone Rush
- Stealth Rock
Not many things can switch in on this. There are only 4 common things that would switch in on this, namely: Ho-oh; Celesteela; Chansey; Audino. Of these, only Fur Coat Chansey and Fur Coat Audino have a chance of actually surviving and doing something back.
Example calcs:
252 Atk Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 200-240 (48 - 57.6%) -- approx. 92.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 180-215 (45.2 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rocks
252 Atk Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 165-200 (23.4 - 28.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Audino-Mega: 80-95 (19.5 - 23.1%) -- approx. 6.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
(Ignoring the fact that no-sane person runs +def Ho-oh, Celesteela or Audino)
Taking further into account other variables such as flinch chance from kings rock and things start to look a bit grim for many teams. In short: I disagree with removing Kyurem-B as a user of skill link.

2: Buzzwole is a check to Primal-Groudon.
It's a niche check, but it does offer an option against it. Notably: you have to use either flash fire or primordial sea. Also, the immortal dictate of user Motherlove prevents Buzzwole from being removed.

Thanks for reading.

While if I wanted to use Skill Link, KyuB would be the first Pokemon I went to, I don't think Skill Link is worth using over Refrigerate, Tough Claws, Tinted Lens, or Mold Breaker.

Buzzwole may check other types of Groudon but the main one is better checked by much of the other Pokemon in the Primal Groudon checks section (the main one being smash) as they can do more while also checking more Pokemon, Primal Groudon sets or otherwise. As Buzz is ur now, I think it's a good idea to remove it unless the Setpedia is meant to be a catch-all? In which case I don't mind seeing these two things stay.

Weba

 

[Rumors]

Skill Link Kyu-B notably breaks Sash and the occasional Sub without losing a turn and also gets amazing coverage in just two moves (Icicle Spear/Bone Rush). Since it only needs two moves to do its job, it's pretty free to tweak he rest of its set to its needs, such as running Smash and Bullet Seed to sweep or moves like Taunt to harass walls. King's Rock is also trolly as hell. It's biggest drawback right now is the low to mid ladder is too dumb to fall for the Refrigerate bluff, so they'll just use their +4 Core Enforcer when they would have been OHKOed by Fake Out or something.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out why you'd run Mold Breaker on Kyu-B. It's gonna struggle with most Fur Coat users regardless, Giratina and Zygarde aside, and Ice Hammer isn't anywhere near "who needs boosts" level of V-Create for stuff like Moldy Blaziken.


Also disagree on removing Quick Feet Mega-Ray. It is status immune, doesn't mind terribly if it gets hit by Poison/Toxic or Paralysis, outspeeds the whole unboosted meta without the "only works once" issues of Unburden, self-heals, OHKOs Eviolite Imposter (after set-up), doesn't care if it loses its item after the first turn, hates Core Enforcer less than some other Ray sets, and ignores Dazzling. It lacks immediate wall breaking potential of Aerilate sets, but its power is otherwise the same as a non-damage item Triage set. Triage can run LO or something, yeah, but its coverage moves aren't going to have boosted speed and it can't take on Imposter without some hijinks. Quick Feet can also check Triage and Aerilate Ray due to the faster Ice Beam without setting up, which is neat. (Triage needs to be no higher than +2 boost when holding LO though).



Meanwhile, suggesting an addition of Cresselia for Unaware. Yes, it struggles with Moongeist and Power Trip, but Cress otherwise has great bulk, enough to take a couple of Draco Meteors from Mega-Ray, resists Superpower, Psycho Boost, Stored Power, and Photon Geyser, has a lot of HP for passing a Wish if you're into that, and has lowish speed for pivoting away. It also gets STAB on Stored Power if you feel like running Spectral Thief to make up for its lowish power, which can wreck an unprepared offensive team, although this is pretty niche. Hilarious, but niche.


I'll think about other suggestions/removals, need to go deal with Real Life™ stuff right now. >.>

 

[Ren]

Skill Link Kyu-B notably breaks Sash and the occasional Sub without losing a turn and also gets amazing coverage in just two moves (Icicle Spear/Bone Rush). Since it only needs two moves to do its job, it's pretty free to tweak he rest of its set to its needs, such as running Smash and Bullet Seed to sweep or moves like Taunt to harass walls. King's Rock is also trolly as hell. It's biggest drawback right now is the low to mid ladder is too dumb to fall for the Refrigerate bluff, so they'll just use their +4 Core Enforcer when they would have been OHKOed by Fake Out or something.

You shouldn't be advocating for a set because "people are too dumb" if it's not actually good, otherwise we'd be having FEAR everywhere. Sure, its niche is breaking Sashes - and that's a decent niche, just not what I would run KyuB for. Though yeah, that's fair, and I'm convinced. I'm fine with keeping KyuB in Skill Link category now.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out why you'd run Mold Breaker on Kyu-B. It's gonna struggle with most Fur Coat users regardless, Giratina and Zygarde aside, and Ice Hammer isn't anywhere near "who needs boosts" level of V-Create for stuff like Moldy Blaziken.

Mold Breaker's niche is moreso shitting on Shedinja while also having immense wallbreaking power, I run it occasionally for the same reason I run Mold Heracross. Mold Priority is awesome, as is breaking past Fur Coats and Ice/Dragon STAB is really nice offensively.

Also disagree on removing Quick Feet Mega-Ray. It is status immune, doesn't mind terribly if it gets hit by Poison/Toxic or Paralysis, outspeeds the whole unboosted meta without the "only works once" issues of Unburden, self-heals, OHKOs Eviolite Imposter (after set-up), doesn't care if it loses its item after the first turn, hates Core Enforcer less than some other Ray sets, and ignores Dazzling. It lacks immediate wall breaking potential of Aerilate sets, but its power is otherwise the same as a non-damage item Triage set. Triage can run LO or something, yeah, but its coverage moves aren't going to have boosted speed and it can't take on Imposter without some hijinks. Quick Feet can also check Triage and Aerilate Ray due to the faster Ice Beam without setting up, which is neat. (Triage needs to be no higher than +2 boost when holding LO though).

It has all these niches but realistically, why would you not run another set over Quick Feet? Sure, it can take status, but that's a very small niche compared to the power of Aerilate or the priority of Triage. Beating Prankster is a bigger niche I would argue. Also, why does it hate Core Enforcer less than other Ray sets? You're being worn down by status, if anything it should hate it more. I guess I can kind of see why it'd hate Core less than Aerilate, but I disagree with it because its capability of taking hits compared to its offensive power isn't all too good. Triage does technically have boosted speed alongside Giga Drain, but that's a strawman - My main concern is that you don't really need a boost in speed other than those two moves, since those two moves shit on everything save for Registeel which a coverage move can do and doesn't need boosted Speed for. I'd argue that the potency of other Mega Ray sets is much more valuable than being Imposterproof and taking status.

 

[Rumors]

The bluff works on higher ladder and tournament scenes. The "low ladder dumbness" is just a general thing, you can lose games on low ladder by trying to play mind games that'd work on more skilled opponents. One of Skill Link's biggest strengths is it bluffs Refrigerate, since 99% of Kyu-B are Fridge, so you get a free set-up turn and lure in a check that isn't actually a check, like Dazzlesash MMY. Or they swap to Registeel and take a lot of damage from Bone Rush, even if they haze. Taunt on the set also keeps Regi from healing, D.Bonding, etc. Of course, low ladder folk don't think about that stuff, so Skill Link Kyu-B is just another set-up sweeper or attacker down there.


For Ray, meant to remove the bit about Core Enforcer but forgot. My mistake. Quick Feet's perk though is the set is pretty independent because it checks its own Imposter and can pick its other checks with the right moves. Whereas Triage or Aerilate Ray mean you need to have a wall on your team that checks your Ray, at minimum, or doing some set building gymnastics for Ray to check its own Imposter. Quick Feet trades a couple of perks and power to loosen up your team building, requiring only a pivot to ensure Imposter coming in before it can Tail Glow, and loosens up your coverage options since you don't need to worry so much about Imposter turning them on you.