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If we are using niche sets as arguments, then altaria isn't a gren check at all, since, protein gunk shot completely annihilates it on a switch. Also, protein based coverage gren is far more common than z ground and z electric . Z electric kommo-o actually only does around 70% to spdef pex, since it gains 0 boosts. Tectonic rage also doesn't ohko (94%max) from non boosted. Another thing to consider is that these versions only exist for pex, meanwhile, the far more common sets have a better matchup against altaria than pex.
My mistake, accidentally calc'd at +1. My main point was however the poison, which suddenly forces out a roost every time kommo-o clicks jab on a switch. It also hinders it from checking a lot of other threats. It can also 2hkos after poison and rocks with pjab.
I don't know why you brought this up, as I already admitted that pex and alt are only comparable in the beating offensive waters and kommo-o department. I compared them because of that alt does nothing to defensive teams, compared to pex, who is quite a pain.
Poison sucks but switches into every other attack and even poisoned checks Kommo-o, Also checking Pert is a big deal, along with Tran with EQ, you have some points to, being passive sucks, but the only mandatory moves are Body Slam and Roost, it can use Heal Bell, Haze or Defog over Toxic in more Defensive teams, and Defog isn't mandatory, in fact, Defoggers like Torn and Skarm have Good synergy with Altaria.
Poisoned doesn't check kommo-o. Checking pert is nice, however, it looses to power up punch which makes ice punch a 2hko after rocks. There are also much better mons for beating pert than alt, for an example skarmory, who does a much better job at beating pert, infact walling every set and being capable of setting up spikes and whirlwinding.
Using eq over defog leaves you open to sr pert, since torn struggles getting a defog off against most rain teams. It's also only really useful for one Pokemon in the entire game so I really wouldn't bother. Toxic is definitely mandatory, as without it it doesn't check things it doesn't hit hard with body slam, those being pert and mzard x. Also, skarm/tang + pex is a objectively better core to use on stall/balance, which is why I really only see this mon as a niche on BO.
I also fail to see why I would ever use this mon on stall over skarm, which is pretty much strictly an upgrade in the physdef department, while providing lots of utility. Tang also has much better utility, as it checks ash gren much better than alt does, while also being a great pivot thanks to regenerator. Both of these mons, when paired with pex, do everything alt does but better.
It's not the best mon obviously but if you need a mon that checks Kommo-o, Swampert and Fire Types in only slot Altaria can be good choice, also the mons that it covers happens to be really good mons in the current metagame, and also I'm aware of his many flaws that's why I'm only asking to be C-,
I really fail to see what it does over most of the defensive mons in OU, it's way too much of a momentum soak to be used on BO, but balance and stall have much better options so I really don't see what it brings to the table. Then there's the problem of it only checking a handful of mons. Most physical attackers actually do really well against alt. As I stated previously, it really only counters pert, Mlop and Mzard X. Every other mon either can effectively cripple it, or just 2hko it after rocks.
I do understand that it's a niche mon, but just because it has a niche that can be explored, doesn't mean that it's any good. By using that logic, I could put blissey all the way up in B tier, since it functions as a bad chansey, which makes it B tier right? Except for the fact that it's completely outshined by chansey in almost every way, giving you basically no reason to use it.
I support Malt for C- but not any higher. I was about to make to question as to why Toxapex and Malt were being compared as as while both are defensive walls, they are still very different than each other but other people beat me to it.
Malt has a fantastic defensive typing and that allows it to wall a variety of threats that Toxapex can't such as Banded Bulu and Heatran. Malt also has a great Matchup vs other Hazard Setters such as Greninja, Garchomp, Heatran and depending on your coverage, other setters like Ferrothorn due to its large movepool. Because of having access to Natural Cure, even Toxic Heatran doesn't annoy it since you not mega initially to scout for that and Heatran has a 50% chance of being OHKO'd from full with uninvested EQ when mega evolved. While Pex can walls threats like Greninja as well, it just lets Greninja hazard stack which isn't ideal.
248+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 162-192 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Malt also has access to other support moves such as Heal Bell which can take the burden of mons such as Chansey, which frees up a moveslot for them. Another thing malt has which most defensive walls don't is offensive presence. While 80 speed isn't great, 110 in both attack and special attack is respectable, considering the boost pixilate gives to Return/Body Slam/Hyper Voice and great coverage for moves such as Ice Beam, Flamethrower and EQ.
With pokemon like Skarmory having dropped off due to the meta trends and even Zapdos suffering from the increase of Z-Giga Kartana which is slowly getting more common, defensive teams now have more options for defoggers and that's where I feel Malt has a niche in the ou metagame.
Both Mega Zards, Lopunny and less common but dangerous waters such as Keldeo, Mega Gyara and Crawdaunt, can also be dealt with nicely.
Now the main drawback is that Malt requires a mega stone and unfortunately there is competition for that. Maggron, MSlowbro, Msab are the primarily ones with all of them having uses that although different than Malt are generally more useful. Maggron and MSlowbro also have respectable coverage and offensives and can cover key threats that Stall can struggle to deal with such as Mega Mawile and Kyub.
I don't think I need to say this but, Malt as an offensive mon is completely outclassed. 110/110/80 for a offensive mon that requires a mega stone just is not worth using when beasts such as Mega Mawile and Mega Cham roam the tier.
I'll update this post with replays as I find them.
EDIT: Sorry for the delay of replays, all the single zards, gyaras and bulus just weren't in the area when I needed them.
TLDR; Malt has a niche as being a defogger that can beat many common hazard setters such as Garchomp, Heatran and Greninja and packs an amazing defensive typing able to beat the dangerous Fire/Water/Grass mons in the tier such as Both Zards, Keld/MGyara and Bulu. Also functions as a nice status absorber pre-mega and packs good support moves and coverage moves with its stats to have offensive presence but has tough competition from other megas so I don't think Malt should be higher than C-.
I support Malt for C- but not any higher. I was about to make to question as to why Toxapex and Malt were being compared as as while both are defensive walls, they are still very different than each other but other people beat me to it.
Malt has a fantastic defensive typing and that allows it to wall a variety of threats that Toxapex can't such as Banded Bulu and Heatran. Malt also has a great Matchup vs other Hazard Setters such as Greninja, Garchomp, Heatran and depending on your coverage, other setters like Ferrothorn due to its large movepool. Because of having access to Natural Cure, even Toxic Heatran doesn't annoy it since you not mega initially to scout for that and Heatran has a 50% chance of being OHKO'd from full with uninvested EQ when mega evolved. While Pex can walls threats like Greninja as well, it just lets Greninja hazard stack which isn't ideal.
248+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 162-192 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Malt also has access to other support moves such as Heal Bell which can take the burden of mons such as Chansey, which frees up a moveslot for them. Another thing malt has which most defensive walls don't is offensive presence. While 80 speed isn't great, 110 in both attack and special attack is respectable, considering the boost pixilate gives to Return/Body Slam/Hyper Voice and great coverage for moves such as Ice Beam, Flamethrower and EQ.
With pokemon like Skarmory having dropped off due to the meta trends and even Zapdos suffering from the increase of Z-Giga Kartana which is slowly getting more common, defensive teams now have more options for defoggers and that's where I feel Malt has a niche in the ou metagame.
Both Mega Zards, Lopunny and less common but dangerous waters such as Keldeo, Mega Gyara and Crawdaunt, can also be dealt with nicely.
Now the main drawback is that Malt requires a mega stone and unfortunately there is competition for that. Maggron, MSlowbro, Msab are the primarily ones with all of them having uses that although different than Malt are generally more useful. Maggron and MSlowbro also have respectable coverage and offensives and can cover key threats that Stall can struggle to deal with such as Mega Mawile and Kyub.
I don't think I need to say this but, Malt as an offensive mon is completely outclassed. 110/110/80 for a offensive mon that requires a mega stone just is not worth using when beasts such as Mega Mawile and Mega Cham roam the tier.
I'll update this post with replays as I find them.
TLDR; Malt has a niche as being a defogger that can beat many common hazard setters such as Garchomp, Heatran and Greninja and packs an amazing defensive typing able to beat the dangerous Fire/Water/Grass mons in the tier such as Both Zards, Keld/MGyara and Bulu. Also functions as a nice status absorber pre-mega and packs good support moves and coverage moves with its stats to have offensive presence but has tough competition from other megas so I don't think Malt should be higher than C-.
This post has actually kind of convinced me. Key word kind of.
As I've previously stated, the toxapex comparison was pretty bad. I compared it to common balance cores to make a point that it's completely outclassed on balance.
As I've stated previously, It doesn't check much aside from a handful of physical offensive waters, Mzard X and Mlop. It still struggles against most of the metagame, now, the checks list is still pretty big, however, it fails to ohko most of the dragons it's supposed to check, so you're basically stuck having to hope that you get that 30% para with body slam.
I still do not think it's viable on most team archetypes, however, I do see it as being somewhat viable on BO. Now, it is still incredibly passive, sucks vs defensive teams and also takes up a mega slot, however, it has a decent matchup vs rain, something BO has a hard time against. Now, it's not the next top tier threat, as having a good matchup against rain on a team archetype who's popularity has declined greatly is still very niche, and as I've stated previously, just because a mon has a niche, doens't mean that it's viable, which was seen in my blissey comparison.
I think the Mega Altaria discussion has dragged enough.
Furthermore, I deleted the Sun posts since replays are mandatory for unranked Pokemon. Please be mindful of the rules set by the tyrant mods of OU that are listed in the OP.
Mega Aggron should rise because of how much better it is compared to stuff in the C ranks, but more importantly it has proven to be more than just a stall pick. It has been experimented with on more balanced teams. Wish support is not that hard to fit on the archetype so its lack of recovery isn't that bad and it has excellent match ups against a lot of the Threats to Balance such as SD Mega Mawile. I personally think its best partner is Wish Chansey because it gets all of its health back when getting the wish.
I have a team here if anyone wants to try out this unexplored Archetype.
Other Noms:
A+ -> A
Mega Alakazam is certainly not a bad Pokemon but as of late the presence of its checks such as Clefable and Mega Latis twins have really made it harder for it to destroy teams like it used to. It really didn't fit with the rest of A+ to begin with anyway.
B -> B+
Slowbro has been giving Toxapex some competition on a few teams because of that lack of ground weakness. Combine that with with pretty good movepool its actually able to threaten stuff offensively thanks to its respectable SpA stat. Amoonguss ability to absorb toxic spikes while having access to one of the most broken moves in the game in spore. It is way above the rest of B so I think a rise to B+ is warranted.
B- -> B or even B+ in Zard Y's case
Both of these Megas have been pretty underrated for a while now. Zard Y has recently been trending with its Fire Spam core with Victini which has gained a reputation for being really hard to wall without a Sand team. Speaking of weather, the amount of weather going around has made Zard Y a very good anti-measure against them. Mega Gallade should rise simply because of how easily it can dismantle common cores like CelePex after a single SD. A better speed stat makes way less prediction reliant against offensive teams than Mega Medicham. Its also better than the other stuff in B- so yeah a rise would be nice.
C- -> UR
When was the last time you saw this thing in a tournament or even on the ladder? Sure its coverage and Intimidate might look nice on paper but in practice it falls flat. Is there really a time you would use this over Koko?
100% Agreeing with Mega Mane for being UR, I haven't seen it in so long I honestly forgot it was even ranked. Koko is almost as fast, but hits harder with electric moves due to Terrain and is able to pivot out safely against grounds because of its access to U-turn. Koko also has the benefit of not being super predictable unlike Mane which you know is running the same 4 moves (gonna post the stats down below), since Koko can be both special or physical, has longevity with roost and has team support with access to moves such as defog, taunt and screens. Intimidate is nice but Electric Terrain provides a useful team immunity to sleep and helps teammates such as Kyub break through walls and allows Lucha to activate unburden.
Volt Switch 95.670% | Hidden Power Ice 91.299% | Thunderbolt 87.713% | Flamethrower 66.318% | Overheat 32.284% | Discharge 4.523% | Hidden Power Grass 4.318% | Other 17.874%
Now all of this is bad enough, but remember Mega Mane takes up a mega slot, and there is really no point using it when Koko is just better for the reasons I stated above. Even if for whatever reason you didn't want to use Koko, It's still outclassed by likes of Zeraora, which packs a nice immunity to Electric to absorb volt switch and a situational immunity to normal with Plasma Fists, is faster, hits harder with LO, has better coverage and also doesn't take up a mega slot. And that's also an UR'd mon.
100% Agreeing with Mega Mane for being UR, I haven't seen it in so long I honestly forgot it was even ranked. Koko is almost as fast, but hits harder with electric moves due to Terrain and is able to pivot out safely against grounds because of its access to U-turn. Koko also has the benefit of not being super predictable unlike Mane which you know is running the same 4 moves (gonna post the stats down below), since Koko can be both special or physical, has longevity with roost and has team support with access to moves such as defog, taunt and screens. Intimidate is nice but Electric Terrain provides a useful team immunity to sleep and helps teammates such as Kyub break through walls and allows Lucha to activate unburden.
Volt Switch 95.670% | Hidden Power Ice 91.299% | Thunderbolt 87.713% | Flamethrower 66.318% | Overheat 32.284% | Discharge 4.523% | Hidden Power Grass 4.318% | Other 17.874%
Now all of this is bad enough, but remember Mega Mane takes up a mega slot, and there is really no point using it when Koko is just better for the reasons I stated above. Even if for whatever reason you didn't want to use Koko, It's still outclassed by likes of Zeraora, which packs a nice immunity to Electric to absorb volt switch and a situational immunity to normal with Plasma Fists, is faster, hits harder with LO, has better coverage and also doesn't take up a mega slot. And that's also an UR'd mon.
TBH none of this remotely matters at this point or at any point in the past (but especially now with a literal month left). However you're forgetting intimidate. Depending on your team structure mega manectric Is harder to take down than koko or zerora. Just because you haven't seen it does not speak much on it's viability. popularity does not equal usefulness, especially in this group think culture that has self fulfilled due to this site. Anyway having access to flamethrower is very useful as well as the hp grass. Would I use it over koko? You could use both on the same team. Taking up a mega slot really isnt that harmful tbh btw. There are only a handful of them and they are by no means mandatory (they are also gone next gen lmao). Forcing one to fit on your team is just foolish, but that's a weaker point.
I wouldnt personally put zerora and manetric in the same point tbh, I actually would argue that they hit vastly different things (not to mention one is physical/mixed), there are also several common situations where the Z cat would get beaten wild manetric wins the matchup but it's all good. just disagreeing with this.
TBH none of this remotely matters at this point or at any point in the past (but especially now with a literal month left). However you're forgetting intimidate. Depending on your team structure mega manectric Is harder to take down than koko or zerora. Just because you haven't seen it does not speak much on it's viability. popularity does not equal usefulness, especially in this group think culture that has self fulfilled due to this site. Anyway having access to flamethrower is very useful as well as the hp grass. Would I use it over koko? You could use both on the same team. Taking up a mega slot really isnt that harmful tbh btw. There are only a handful of them and they are by no means mandatory (they are also gone next gen lmao). Forcing one to fit on your team is just foolish, but that's a weaker point.
I wouldnt personally put zerora and manetric in the same point tbh, I actually would argue that they hit vastly different things (not to mention one is physical/mixed), there are also several common situations where the Z cat would get beaten wild manetric wins the matchup but it's all good. just disagreeing with this.
You say depending on the team structure that Mane lasts longer and that's sort of valid for Zeraora, but Koko just straight up has roost for recovery. Koko can switch into weak hits like scald from pex, choice locked non ash-gren etc or force a switch from a pokemon weak to it, and heal up with roost. Zera kills itself with LO yes, but Zera isn't a good mon anyways and at least has ways to heal, even if inconsistent and unreliable. whatever damage Mane takes even if reduced partly with Intimidate is still permanent. HP Grass just isn't a useful move and how little the move is actually used reflects that. You lose the ability the hit common pokemon like Lando-T, Garchomp, Gliscor and gain the ability to hit Swampert which outspeeds anyways in rain, Quagsire which is stall exclusive and even then stall has multiple pokemon to wall Mane such as Chansey, and then just Gastrodon. The other electrics have access to grass knot so they don't even suffer that problem.
Now taking up a mega slot isn't world ending, but when you are outclassed so heavily in all areas but speed which even then is a slight increase the question still remains of why you would waste it on that when Koko exists. Even if nothing else needed a mega on your team, Koko is still worth the slot over it for reason i've explained in this post and the last one. The reason I compared Zera to Mane is already explained, it hits harder, regardless of being physical/mixed/special, more coverage and has more speed. Mane does not hit anything Zera doesn't, it has trash coverage consisting of Electric, Fire and Hidden Power whereas Zera gets access to moves like Focus Blast and Grass Knot on the special side and there's no reason to compare their physical options.
Now is Mega Mane unusable? Well you probably can use it on a team as an inferior Koko and win some games, but In my opinion Mega Mane does not have enough of a justifiable niche if any to remain Ranked which is why I support its nomination to be Unranked. Also you didn't explain much of what Mega Mane actually has or does or present any reason for it to remain in C-. Simply having access to intimidate with no resistance to any common physical hits and while Flamethrower is nice for a few steels and grasses, common pokemon like AV Tangrowth is only 3HKO'd while Choice Bulu isn't OHKO'd and OHKO's with Horn Leech/Wood Hammer even through intimidate just doesn't seem enough, The amount of time the meta has before SWSH drops is irrelevant and doesn't mean the VR shouldn't have changes.
However you're forgetting intimidate. Depending on your team structure mega manectric Is harder to take down than koko or zerora. Just because you haven't seen it does not speak much on it's viability. popularity does not equal usefulness, especially in this group think culture that has self fulfilled due to this site.
Intmidate is actually a decent point, as it gives it some use on HO, which is the only team archetype I can see it being used on, since it pairs so well with electric terrain and the fast and loose playstyle HO adapts helps mega-mane out alot, as it's lack of reliable recovery hurts. However, being capable of healing in a game of balance vs balance is extremely important, and manectrics lack of sustainability basically makes it dead weight in most balance vs balance matchups. And as for why I don't see it being useful in BO is because of that BO has much better megas and mons in general that perform much better than mega-mane.
Even though popularity itself has nothing to do with viability, it is still a way to see if people are experimenting with it and finding a use for it. Unfortunately, mega-mane is never really used in serious games, which is because of the massive amount of flaws that are written above (andby above I mean the posts above).
Anyway having access to flamethrower is very useful as well as the hp grass. Would I use it over koko? You could use both on the same team. Taking up a mega slot really isnt that harmful tbh btw. There are only a handful of them and they are by no means mandatory (they are also gone next gen lmao). Forcing one to fit on your team is just foolish, but that's a weaker point.
Flamethrower is really only useful against teams that rely on AV tang as their only electric resist, which brings me to my 2nd point, using it as a balance breaker on HO. I've seen alot of balances only have AV tang as their best electric move switchin and with the rise of balance teams, I'm actually starting to see some viability in it. But this is still a niche, and a very small one at that which is also somewhat hindered by bulky heatran (as long as you have hazards up).
Otherwise, it's stall matchup is terrible (residual damage + quag + chansey which wall it cuz hp ice is much better than hp grass in OU and even if you're using hp grass, scouting is an option), it's semi stall matchup is ok? But it still gets chipped and doesn't deal much damage unless you volt on chansey and bring in a pursuit user or something..
I really do think it has a niche but am unsure if that small niche makes it good enough for the rankings
When was the last time you saw this thing in a tournament or even on the ladder? Sure its coverage and Intimidate might look nice on paper but in practice it falls flat. Is there really a time you would use this over Koko?
Mega-Manectric is definitely not a good pick and is mediocre most of the time, but it has a niche in the current meta. Outspeeding Ash Greninja post transformation is helpful in dire situations, and in a situation where Koko could no longer check Greninja (Unless Scarf). Koko’s TBolts hit harder than Mane’s but its HP Ice hits harder than Koko’s letting it more reliably OHKO Lando, Chomp, and Gliscor after rocks. Fire coverage lets it OHKO Bulu and Ferrothorn which are common Koko answers.
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Overheat vs. 84 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 306-360 (101.3 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Overheat vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 384-456 (109 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
People tend to underestimate Intimidate on Mega-Mane, but it gives it the ability to check Scarf Kart a scary mon to face for offensive teams, Scarf Koko needs rocks in order to revenge Kart and even that isn’t guaranteed. With 24 HP EV investment it can survive an EQ from defensive Lando and Gliscor. It doesn’t have a good matchup vs stall but there are examples of good or great mons with piss poor matchups vs Stall so that’s not a major problem.
Its far from fantastic or even good but why UR it when trash like Zydoge are in the same rank as it anyways? Also Idk where Zeraora even came from in this discussion, its not on the VR and shouldn’t be in any discussion on this thread unless it a nomination for Zeraora to be ranked in the VR.
SP attacker koko can also 1 hit ko Lando and Gliscor with HP ice. You also said that Mega-Mane is bad vs stall. Which is other good reason to use Zeraora over it. Zeraora can smash through SP walls like chansey. These are pretty good valid points not even bother with Mega-Mane.
Since theres a discussion around M-Manectric, I thought I might give my take on it.
I feel there isn’t any reason to de-rank Manectric. I’ve seen it quite a few times on the ladder.
It isn’t a good mon, but it has it’s place.
Here are some usage stats to back it up.
83 | Manectric-Mega | 1.184%
84 | Zeraora | 1.146%
105 | Slowbro-Mega | 0.783%
86 | Gengar | 1.131%
Also, the main argument I’ve seen come up is that it’s outclassed by Koko.
It is slightly true, since Koko hits harder due to terrain, Manectric can be used as a Koko partner.
Under terrain it’s electric attacks are incredibly powerful and can 2HKO pretty much anything that doesn’t resist/isn't immune. I feel like it should stay C-, since it’s better than most C- mons in OU anyways.
Can't say the recent discussions people have really whet the appetite. So I've decided to stir the pot with real content and not low-hanging fruit.
Get your angry reacts ready.
Let's start off with the small fry stuffl. I think a lot of the C Rank needs to get rid of some of the garbage mons / re-arrange some mons that might have very low niches in some fringe teams (Trick Room Uxie / Cress is probably fine for example). Overall the tiers are riddled with mons that just aren't good - some of them haven't been good since fucking 2 years ago even.
I'm going to put these in a Hide tag, mostly because the goal of my post is to not dwell too much on these, but just some thoughts on what I feel doesn't belong in the rankings anymore and short quips on why they should be removed.
- UR. This one I think is easy. No one in their right mind would ever use Mega Manectric. First, there's the steep Mega Evolution competition that grows by the day. There are so many better Megas in comparison - Medicham, Mawile, Lopunny, Lati@s just to name a few. Hell I'd take Mega Chomp over this dogshit mon and I don't think anyone would really disagree. Also better bulk than the Pokemon that has Roost? Like wut. The rest of the arguments I've read for this Pokemon to even stay ranked is so nonsensical. Zeraora? What is this, low ladder UU talking?
- UR. No one has touched this Pokemon in like a decade. Magnezone has been used as the primary Magnet Pull mon and I haven't seen a ton of A-Golems.
- UR. Serious question - is this another CBB attempt at Jellicent in SM OU? Because that's what it smells like. I haven't seen this mon, I don't think anyone really has, and while there are some okay paper things about it the mon just screams not worth it. Next.
- UR. Table was a fringe pick when Zygarde was around. I'd really question its usefulness this time around. It doesn't hit Mawile very well, and Medicham is just a no-go. Chomper and Lando-T have Continental Crush, so that's also bad. Maybe it checks Gliscor? THat's about the furthest I can think of.
- UR. Been dead since 2017. Can this poor boy go back home to UR?
See above.
- UR. Another mon that hasn't been touched in God know how long, I can't think of serious reasons to use Mantine since Defog distribution got wider and Gastrodon became the mon of choice to grapple Magearna and Ash-Gren.
- UR. Jirachi is what's used for Healing Wish a lot more. I'd say Latias's role has only dwindled the more popular Mega Latias has become (as in the opportunity cost is far greater).
- C- or UR. This mon also hasn't been very good in a while.
I think for re-arrangement - very fringe niches should be in C-. Araquanid is probably an example that's fine in C-. If C- shrinks, I think some C Pokemon can simply drop on the account of just almost never being used or questionable to use in the metagame.
Next are some rises.
- B-. Unfortunately Joycapjosh won't be playing with Skarmory in UU this generation. Skarmory has slowly crept back into existence, and it's been fit on some bulkier teams as a Spiker, Defogger, and still checking some physically offensive Pokemon. While Counter has some moments where it sucks, it usually prevents some sweepers from getting too ham and can create some headaches to bypass. Overall, the Pokemon has only gotten better throughout the latter stages of the generation and I feel C+ is too low for it.
- B+/A-. This Pokemon really needs to rise. Kommo-o has been a very big headache to a lot of teams between the SpD Toxic set and DD. It's a very versatile beast with typing that's pretty fitting for a lot of metagame threats like Ash-Gren and Tyranitar. B+ is for more conservative argument, but I know some people in the mods chat have agreed with it A- and I wouldn't be opposed.
- B (maybe B+?). You hate this thing. I hate this thing. I think we all can agree B- is way too low for this mon.
- B+. Rain archtypes with Manaphy can apply a lot of pressure with just a single Tail Glow. I wouldn't say it's the face of rain in that there are other Pokemon that fit nicely in rain, but the gap between Manaphy and Mega Pert are way too large IMO. Either way this mon should rise.
- A-. This Pokemon has resurged again and has been pretty dangerous for a lot of teams to face. Correct clicking has broken a lot of teams. Also while its typing isn't the best it can occasionally be a help to deter some mons like Gleam-less Koko.
- A. Sand Balance has been a solid archtype. Driller has contributed a lot to those teams alongside its partner(s), the Tyranitar(s). Being an optional spinner or just going gun-ho with SD has made this mon really difficult for teams to stop effectively if they don't have rain or certain checks just don't exist / severely chipped.
- A. Sorry Jordy, you can explain more if you want in your nomination, but I think Clefable has been a pretty driving force in the metagame lately with Life Orb sets taking the storm. Utility or offense - this Pokemon has it both.
- A+. I'm sure this is where a lot of people are going to glare at me. Mega Medicham, while it may not be the Pokemon that wins games all the time, has definitely made a major impact as of late on the metagame. Pex has picked up Baneful Bunker partly as a reaction to Mega Medicham too. I can probably agree this one is a little ambitious, but it's really hard to deny Mega Medicham in the metagame right now.
- A+. Another nomination I'm sure that will make people disagree, but it's been the backbone on a lot of bulkier teams. While the offensive sets need some support to take off properly it's such a great check to a lot of Pokemon (when used properly...) and helps teams patch a lot of vulnerabilities. While it doesn't have an astounding win rate, it's also been the top 3 Pokemon used in Snake - something that's really hard to shake off.
- S. I already feel Finch ripping off my moderator badge. This is not driven in any way by the PR thread, so I don't want people to take this post as me saying we need to suspect or ban anything (I'll also edit / delete posts that even allude to this). That all being said, I think Kartana has driven itself to be a huge metagame presence while also being fairly versatile that it has a lot of qualities, if not the qualities to S Rank.
First we have the classic Choice Band Kartana - it's a fairly good breaker that also can create pressure early game with Knock Off. Removing items such as Rocky Helmet or Leftovers can be huge for Kartana later in the game when it's time to clean up or during mid game where it needs to start applying pressure to break threats.
Next is the utility set - which gives Kartana some versatility in being more than just an offensive Pokemon. While it still can apply offensive pressure with Bloom Doom, having Synthesis make Kartana very appealing to check some threats such as Gliscor. Having Defog is also great since it helps alleviate pressure when switching around. It also has an okay handling against Landorus-T, which is one of the more common Stealth Rock Pokemon in the tier (though it has to be careful because SSSS and a +2 EQ will still do a lot).
We also have Scarf and Swords Dance. Both of these sets have different appeals to them - SD being similar to Band in breaking but having more freedom to select a move and different Z Crystal if desired. Corkscrew or Breakneck can overwhelm Helmet Tangrowth while also keeping Helmet Torn-T from switching in safely. Scarf is a nice cleaner / revenge killer.
II can't think of much more, but it's been a Pokemon that I feel has been a driving impact on the USUM OU metagame and I think A+, while it is fine here, I feel there are compelling reasons to raise it to S. I get that some people, council included, might disagree with me, but I figured I would be "that guy" and still nominate it.
For a few other drops:
- B+. Gastrodon usage hurts this a bit. I know that isn't much to say, and it's still nice at checking some threats, but I don't think it's been as dominant as it was in previous iterations of the metagame.
- B-. I think rain teams have enough abusers to where Kingdra is a bit more niche in them. Manaphy, Ash-Gren, and Mega Pert just offer a lot more for rain IMO and it's not been used enough to convince me to be B.
- B-. Look man when Pex exists I just have a hard time thinking of reasons to use Suicune. Probably the only meta trend that might be going for it IMO is that Pex's sometimes drop Haze so its easier to PP stall a Pex, but at what cost really?
I think that's about it. There's a lot here and probably not a ton of details as to why things rise or fall, but hopefully I provided just enough context to get balls rolling on discussion for some Pokemon or continue driving discussion for Pokemon. I don't future posts to nitpick C tiers from me. It's not because "I don't care", it's more "there are way bigger fish to fry than worrying about schmuck Pokemon like Terrakion and where it belongs".
Sorry if this isn't a good post, as it's literally my first ever. But here are my thoughts on M-Manectric:
I think M-Manectric should drop. It gets worn down easily with U-turns (which is used by many pivots like Landorus-T and a lot more) and rain teams (as most of them use M-Swampert). I don't think it functions well as a wallbreaker since it gets walled by AV Magearna and Heatran or any specially defensive walls, the first two mons being extremely popular (though Heatran usage has dropped) and, as mentioned before, utterly outclassed. The one advantage it has over Tapu-Koko is fire coverage, but that doesn't do well against rain teams, as mentioned before.
The other issue with M-Manectric is that its moveset is predictable. Volt switch, thunderbolt, overheat/flamethrower, and hidden power ice. This staple set is used by almost all M-Manectric users, as its movepool is really shallow (except for the rare occasional hidden power grass, but c'mon, it's hidden power). This makes it really easy to counter and switch in, as most teams will have proper counters if they are built properly. If you notice all the top tier threats, most of them are up there because they are not as easy to predict; Landorus has scarf, 2 z-variants, focus sash, etc, Magearna can go av, trick room, leftovers, or z move, Greninja could either be protean or battle bond, which might be hard to tell on the first turn. You get the point. In fact, even Koko, who utterly outclasses it, has many variants as well. It also lacks in bulk, meaning priority moves like fake out, A-Greninja's water shruiken, can wear it down even further. Sticky web completely shuts down M-Manectric if it's also out, taking away whatever niche in speed it had. Mons that are similarly fast like M-Lopunny, A-Greninja, and M-Medicham at least have a decent priority move to fall back on if they have their speed lowered.
If you take a look at the other pokemon in the C- tier, most of them actually have a niche in the tier. I won't go over all of them, but pokemon like Ribombee and Araquanid can almost always get sticky webs out while dishing additional damage after, which is often game changing on offensive and balanced teams. Marowak-Alola, Bronzong, Cresselia, M-Camerupt are really great on trick room teams, especially with Magearna, who is one of the top tier threats. Dragonite with multiscale and d-dance allows it to have the chance to sweep. Golem-Alola, who is outclassed by Magnezone, can actually stand up to Heatran with an earthquake, who Magnezone is wary of and most of the time, does not stand a chance against. Uxie and Ninetales-Alola offer great support, with Uxie giving out stealth rocks and exploding and Ninetales-Alola getting out aurora veil, which is really hard to play against as it almost always give the user a couple free turns to set up. You get the point. Each mon in C- is basically outclassed by another member in the tier, but has its unique niche that some may not have up the tier. M-Manectric really doesn't. It's just an electric type that's fast and deals decent special attack damage, but doesn't have something that really makes it stand out or apart from other pokemon that are wallbreakers.
Final nitpick at M-Manectric: It requires a mega stone. There are better megas that can be used in place of M-Manectric, namely M-Alakazam which is (arguably) the best mega in the OU tier and has an even higher special attack/speed.
M-Manectric, Tapu-Koko's Phione:
Lacks a diverse movepool, is predictable, outclassed by the bird guardian, and has low bulk.
Therefore: should be oofed out of the OU tier in terms of viability.
- S. I already feel Finch ripping off my moderator badge. This is not driven in any way by the PR thread, so I don't want people to take this post as me saying we need to suspect or ban anything (I'll also edit / delete posts that even allude to this). That all being said, I think Kartana has driven itself to be a huge metagame presence while also being fairly versatile that it has a lot of qualities, if not the qualities to S Rank.
First we have the classic Choice Band Kartana - it's a fairly good breaker that also can create pressure early game with Knock Off. Removing items such as Rocky Helmet or Leftovers can be huge for Kartana later in the game when it's time to clean up or during mid game where it needs to start applying pressure to break threats.
Next is the utility set - which gives Kartana some versatility in being more than just an offensive Pokemon. While it still can apply offensive pressure with Bloom Doom, having Synthesis make Kartana very appealing to check some threats such as Gliscor. Having Defog is also great since it helps alleviate pressure when switching around. It also has an okay handling against Landorus-T, which is one of the more common Stealth Rock Pokemon in the tier (though it has to be careful because SSSS and a +2 EQ will still do a lot).
We also have Scarf and Swords Dance. Both of these sets have different appeals to them - SD being similar to Band in breaking but having more freedom to select a move and different Z Crystal if desired. Corkscrew or Breakneck can overwhelm Helmet Tangrowth while also keeping Helmet Torn-T from switching in safely. Scarf is a nice cleaner / revenge killer.
I actually agree with most of your points.
However, here are my thoughts:
Kartana is really great. It has probably the best wallbreaking potential in the game with minimal/zero setup. But, it gets walled by Skarmory, which as you mentioned, has increased in usage. It also does not like sticky webs. A lot. With sticky webs up, any variant gets shut down by Greninja, M-Latios, etc. The colossal issue Kartana has (and I'm pretty sure everyone knows) is its really low special defense. A hidden power fire on a Ferrothorn with no special attack investments can actually OHKO Kartana.
0 SpA Ferrothorn Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 252-300 (97.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Pretty sad.
Let's not linger there though. Kartana also lacks priority, which would be nice to have. Water shruiken can cripple Kartana (though not OHKO it), intimidate from Mawile (which then megas), Landorus-T, and M-Manectric (just kidding) makes it a tad bit weaker, giving it less wall breaking potential. One point you probably though I would've mentioned earlier when I talked about being walled is that it gets demolished by Toxapex. Utterly walled, then allows scald/t-spikes to be set up.
If you look at the S tier, all of those pokemon define the USUM metagame. Toxapex literally walls 90% of the tier, Landorus is a pain in the ass to deal with since it's incredibly diverse, and same goes for Magearna. Ash-Greninja is probably the worst in the S tier, but, cmon. It's Ash-Greninja, which literally OHKO's so many things that aren't resistant to STAB hydro pump with choice specs on a base 150 special attack. Heatran - uh ok why is it in s tier.
Kartana doesn't live up to any of those threats. It's more of a prick than a mon that you might have to build your entire team around to counter. Sure, with proper setup, it can devastate teams mid-late game, but I'd say is really manageable to deal with. It's almost a physical foil to M-Alakazam, which lies in the A+ tier. Both have skyrocket high special attacks, decent bulk on one side, and good speed (though Kartana needs to run choice scarf to be on par). I rarely have to worry too much about Kartana.
In conclusion, Kartana, the steel pokemon which is a version of something I might have made in origami class:
Is great, but not as meta defining as others in S-tier (except for phat heatran). Definitely commend the A+ tier it is in.
I actually agree with most of your points.
However, here are my thoughts:
Kartana is really great. It has probably the best wallbreaking potential in the game with minimal/zero setup. But, it gets walled by Skarmory, which as you mentioned, has increased in usage.
It's true that Skarmory can check Kartana fairly well. That being said Skarmory is one of the few Pokemon that can really brag this (the other being Mega Scizor). While increased usage does hurt Kartana, we have to remember that Skarmory's spike in usage is not quite high enough to where I would say this is a problem. Even then, mind games can happen if Skarmory isn't quite at full health and Skarmory relies on Counter (or Whirlwind to reset the problem).
It also does not like sticky webs. A lot. With sticky webs up, any variant gets shut down by Greninja, M-Latios, etc.
This could be said against a lot of non-levitating (or Serperior / Bisharp) Pokemon. I would also argue that Webs aren't very common either - or at least enough to make me agree with your statement.
The colossal issue Kartana has (and I'm pretty sure everyone knows) is its really low special defense. A hidden power fire on a Ferrothorn with no special attack investments can actually OHKO Kartana.
0 SpA Ferrothorn Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 252-300 (97.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
In exchange Kartana is fairly strong in physical Defense, which allows it to check some of the mentioned Ground-types I talked about in the utility set. We also have to remember running Hidden Power Fire on Ferrothorn has a rather steep cost because you're dedicating a moveslot for this. This means you could lose out on Protect which otherwise could have you sometimes wrestle 1v1 against Magnezone. Losing Leech Seed means Ferrothorn won't keep itself as healthy as it normally can. Losing Spikes or even Stealth Rock are a big problem too. Then if you're lacking Power Whip... well... hopefully you're not scared of Water-types.
Point is, sure, Ferrothorn can and has been seen on a rarity to use Hidden Power Fire, but it has a steep cost tied behind it.
Let's not linger there though. Kartana also lacks priority, which would be nice to have.
Can't say this has personally bothered me barring some scenarios late game maybe, but in exchange for lacking priority Kartana has access to moves like Knock Off which can make switching into Kartana more difficult. Sacred Sword, though not perfect, also prevents the rarer sets like Curse Mega Scizor beating you one-on-one if you have Swords Dance.
I mean sure I guess it would be nice, but wouldn't say its mandatory.
Water shruiken can cripple Kartana (though not OHKO it), intimidate from Mawile (which then megas), Landorus-T, and M-Manectric (just kidding) makes it a tad bit weaker, giving it less wall breaking potential.
Water Shuriken only matters in scenarios like Scarf Kartana or their Ash-Gren is paralyzed. Otherwise, you're probably not going to have Kartana try to tackle Ash-Gren unless you lack a choice. While Intimidate can be annoying, let's not forget that Sworda Dance can still put Landorus-T and its teammates at a severe disadvantage if Kartana is healthy enough. Mawile also has to beware of Corkscrew Crash or even All-Out Pummeling. Its not to say Mega Mawile can't check Kartana and it's not to say Kartana is never bothered by Intimidate, but sometimes (mostly Lando-T's case) you're probably having your Beast Boost cancelled or, in Mega Mawile's case, Intimidate is only happening prior to Mega Evolution, which under most circumstances are less than a few times.
One point you probably though I would've mentioned earlier when I talked about being walled is that it gets demolished by Toxapex. Utterly walled, then allows scald/t-spikes to be set up.
Don't really follow this one honestly. Kartana can still do a lot of damage with its Z Moves and Pex can't really switch into Swords Dance. Band is pretty dangerous too since Banded Leaf Blade can 2HKO after Stealth Rock (unless you're maybe like max Def Pex).
If you look at the S tier, all of those pokemon define the USUM metagame. Toxapex literally walls 90% of the tier, Landorus is a pain in the ass to deal with since it's incredibly diverse, and same goes for Magearna. Ash-Greninja is probably the worst in the S tier, but, cmon. It's Ash-Greninja, which literally OHKO's so many things that aren't resistant to STAB hydro pump with choice specs on a base 150 special attack. Heatran - uh ok why is it in s tier.
Kartana doesn't live up to any of those threats. It's more of a prick than a mon that you might have to build your entire team around to counter. Sure, with proper setup, it can devastate teams mid-late game, but I'd say is really manageable to deal with. It's almost a physical foil to M-Alakazam, which lies in the A+ tier. Both have skyrocket high special attacks, decent bulk on one side, and good speed (though Kartana needs to run choice scarf to be on par). I rarely have to worry too much about Kartana.
In conclusion, Kartana, the steel pokemon which is a version of something I might have made in origami class:
Is great, but not as meta defining as others in S-tier (except for phat heatran). Definitely commend the A+ tier it is in.
I disagree with a lot of the principles here. Kartana is fairly versatile - almost similar to Landorus-T - in how versatile it is. Let's break down Lando-T sets that are commonly used in OU:
- Scarf
- SD Z Edge
- SD Z Fly
- Sash
- Defensive (bit rarer here)
Now compare that to Kartana:
- Band
- Bulky
- Scarf
- Swords Dance
Realistically you could argue the two SD Z Moves for Lando-T can be merged. I get there are some more desireable traits for utility that Lando-T has, Kartana exchanges some of the utility for snowballing potential. Beast Boost is what helps keep Kartana threatening in comparison to some of the offensive sets Lando-T has. Like Magearna Kartana can make sacks very dangerous (well unless it dies to Rocks or Spikes). Kartana also has some utility with Defog on its Scarf set while using Knock Off. It's not U-turn nor Volt Switch, but both of these can be safe middle grounds to take in some scenarios. Kartana's Speed is also critical vs Lando-T. Lando-T is slower than Garchomp for example and Tapu Lele. There's also Kartana having recovery on one of its sets which Lando-T almost always lacks. I think you undervalue some of the utility Kartana brings by comparing it to Mega Zam, which its utility is fairly limited to being fast and having Trace as an ability (which helps against some mons like Heatran).
Overall I get there's a lot to disagree with Kartana being S, but think about how a lot of your counterpoints are more nitpicks against the Pokemon than actual flaws. I would say the Skarmory tidbit is true for example, but it's still not terribly common enough. Even with it being common it has to get certain turns correct against Swords Dance Kartana, and it can just flat out lose against All-Out Pummeling. It's definitely flawed in some aspects, but it's also very sharp in a lot of its pros too.
Hi, I'm here with some nominations rather than a moderation post for once.
→ A+
I'm aware that this nomination is a bit controversial, and I'm not even entirely sure of it myself, however, I'd still like to bring it up. Throughout Snake Draft, we have seen a big increase in Kommo-o usage, one of the best counters to Ash-Greninja, giving it a pretty hard time. On top of that, it's also facing a lot more competition from Protean Greninja in the current meta, which is an excellent wallbreaker and Spikes setter right now. Because of this, Ash-Greninja isn't quite as splashable as it used to be and I don't think it's on the same level as the other S rank Pokemon right now.
→ A
Garchomp has been struggling a bit within the current metagame. For one, it has a particularly hard time picking between Dragonium Z and Rockium Z, essentially having to pick between breaking through Mega Latias or Celesteela, Tapu Bulu, and Skarmory. This really makes it hard for Garchomp to consistently break down teams, especially with the small rise of bulkier Landorus-T variants too. On top of that, Garchomp faces pretty significant competition from other Stealth Rock users, such as Kommo-o and Gliscor. All things considered, I don't think Garchomp fits among Pokemon like Mega Mawile and Tornadus-T; I think it fits a lot better in A rank.
→ A
Clefable has a lot going for it in the current metagame. It's one of the best balance breakers with its Life Orb set, and its defensive sets are great checks to common Pokemon such as Mega Lopunny and Kommo-o. As Clefable has been experimented with more over time, its only gotten more threatening with sets like Calm Mind + Thunderbolt + Life Orb to break through Toxapex and Celesteela seeing more and more usage.
→ C+
Mega Garchomp struggles a lot right now. With Clefable and Gliscor gaining more popularity, it has a really hard time against a lot of bulkier teams, which really isn't desirable for a dedicated wallbreaker. Its below average Speed tier is also a big issue right now, as it struggles to keep up with other Pokemon such as Greninja, Kartana, and Mega Lopunny, which are dominating the metagame right now.
→ Higher
Not much has changed for Seismitoad in terms of the metagame, but it's really proven its worth throughout recent tournaments so a higher ranking is definitely justified.
Also unrank everything that was brought up by Colonel M.
Can't say the recent discussions people have really whet the appetite. So I've decided to stir the pot with real content and not low-hanging fruit.
Get your angry reacts ready.
Let's start off with the small fry stuffl. I think a lot of the C Rank needs to get rid of some of the garbage mons / re-arrange some mons that might have very low niches in some fringe teams (Trick Room Uxie / Cress is probably fine for example). Overall the tiers are riddled with mons that just aren't good - some of them haven't been good since fucking 2 years ago even.
I'm going to put these in a Hide tag, mostly because the goal of my post is to not dwell too much on these, but just some thoughts on what I feel doesn't belong in the rankings anymore and short quips on why they should be removed.
- UR. This one I think is easy. No one in their right mind would ever use Mega Manectric. First, there's the steep Mega Evolution competition that grows by the day. There are so many better Megas in comparison - Medicham, Mawile, Lopunny, Lati@s just to name a few. Hell I'd take Mega Chomp over this dogshit mon and I don't think anyone would really disagree. Also better bulk than the Pokemon that has Roost? Like wut. The rest of the arguments I've read for this Pokemon to even stay ranked is so nonsensical. Zeraora? What is this, low ladder UU talking?
- UR. No one has touched this Pokemon in like a decade. Magnezone has been used as the primary Magnet Pull mon and I haven't seen a ton of A-Golems.
- UR. Serious question - is this another CBB attempt at Jellicent in SM OU? Because that's what it smells like. I haven't seen this mon, I don't think anyone really has, and while there are some okay paper things about it the mon just screams not worth it. Next.
- UR. Table was a fringe pick when Zygarde was around. I'd really question its usefulness this time around. It doesn't hit Mawile very well, and Medicham is just a no-go. Chomper and Lando-T have Continental Crush, so that's also bad. Maybe it checks Gliscor? THat's about the furthest I can think of.
- UR. Been dead since 2017. Can this poor boy go back home to UR?
See above.
- UR. Another mon that hasn't been touched in God know how long, I can't think of serious reasons to use Mantine since Defog distribution got wider and Gastrodon became the mon of choice to grapple Magearna and Ash-Gren.
- UR. Jirachi is what's used for Healing Wish a lot more. I'd say Latias's role has only dwindled the more popular Mega Latias has become (as in the opportunity cost is far greater).
- C- or UR. This mon also hasn't been very good in a while.
I think for re-arrangement - very fringe niches should be in C-. Araquanid is probably an example that's fine in C-. If C- shrinks, I think some C Pokemon can simply drop on the account of just almost never being used or questionable to use in the metagame.
Next are some rises.
- B-. Unfortunately Joycapjosh won't be playing with Skarmory in UU this generation. Skarmory has slowly crept back into existence, and it's been fit on some bulkier teams as a Spiker, Defogger, and still checking some physically offensive Pokemon. While Counter has some moments where it sucks, it usually prevents some sweepers from getting too ham and can create some headaches to bypass. Overall, the Pokemon has only gotten better throughout the latter stages of the generation and I feel C+ is too low for it.
- B+/A-. This Pokemon really needs to rise. Kommo-o has been a very big headache to a lot of teams between the SpD Toxic set and DD. It's a very versatile beast with typing that's pretty fitting for a lot of metagame threats like Ash-Gren and Tyranitar. B+ is for more conservative argument, but I know some people in the mods chat have agreed with it A- and I wouldn't be opposed.
- B (maybe B+?). You hate this thing. I hate this thing. I think we all can agree B- is way too low for this mon.
- B+. Rain archtypes with Manaphy can apply a lot of pressure with just a single Tail Glow. I wouldn't say it's the face of rain in that there are other Pokemon that fit nicely in rain, but the gap between Manaphy and Mega Pert are way too large IMO. Either way this mon should rise.
- A-. This Pokemon has resurged again and has been pretty dangerous for a lot of teams to face. Correct clicking has broken a lot of teams. Also while its typing isn't the best it can occasionally be a help to deter some mons like Gleam-less Koko.
- A. Sand Balance has been a solid archtype. Driller has contributed a lot to those teams alongside its partner(s), the Tyranitar(s). Being an optional spinner or just going gun-ho with SD has made this mon really difficult for teams to stop effectively if they don't have rain or certain checks just don't exist / severely chipped.
- A. Sorry Jordy, you can explain more if you want in your nomination, but I think Clefable has been a pretty driving force in the metagame lately with Life Orb sets taking the storm. Utility or offense - this Pokemon has it both.
- A+. I'm sure this is where a lot of people are going to glare at me. Mega Medicham, while it may not be the Pokemon that wins games all the time, has definitely made a major impact as of late on the metagame. Pex has picked up Baneful Bunker partly as a reaction to Mega Medicham too. I can probably agree this one is a little ambitious, but it's really hard to deny Mega Medicham in the metagame right now.
- A+. Another nomination I'm sure that will make people disagree, but it's been the backbone on a lot of bulkier teams. While the offensive sets need some support to take off properly it's such a great check to a lot of Pokemon (when used properly...) and helps teams patch a lot of vulnerabilities. While it doesn't have an astounding win rate, it's also been the top 3 Pokemon used in Snake - something that's really hard to shake off.
- S. I already feel Finch ripping off my moderator badge. This is not driven in any way by the PR thread, so I don't want people to take this post as me saying we need to suspect or ban anything (I'll also edit / delete posts that even allude to this). That all being said, I think Kartana has driven itself to be a huge metagame presence while also being fairly versatile that it has a lot of qualities, if not the qualities to S Rank.
First we have the classic Choice Band Kartana - it's a fairly good breaker that also can create pressure early game with Knock Off. Removing items such as Rocky Helmet or Leftovers can be huge for Kartana later in the game when it's time to clean up or during mid game where it needs to start applying pressure to break threats.
Next is the utility set - which gives Kartana some versatility in being more than just an offensive Pokemon. While it still can apply offensive pressure with Bloom Doom, having Synthesis make Kartana very appealing to check some threats such as Gliscor. Having Defog is also great since it helps alleviate pressure when switching around. It also has an okay handling against Landorus-T, which is one of the more common Stealth Rock Pokemon in the tier (though it has to be careful because SSSS and a +2 EQ will still do a lot).
We also have Scarf and Swords Dance. Both of these sets have different appeals to them - SD being similar to Band in breaking but having more freedom to select a move and different Z Crystal if desired. Corkscrew or Breakneck can overwhelm Helmet Tangrowth while also keeping Helmet Torn-T from switching in safely. Scarf is a nice cleaner / revenge killer.
II can't think of much more, but it's been a Pokemon that I feel has been a driving impact on the USUM OU metagame and I think A+, while it is fine here, I feel there are compelling reasons to raise it to S. I get that some people, council included, might disagree with me, but I figured I would be "that guy" and still nominate it.
For a few other drops:
- B+. Gastrodon usage hurts this a bit. I know that isn't much to say, and it's still nice at checking some threats, but I don't think it's been as dominant as it was in previous iterations of the metagame.
- B-. I think rain teams have enough abusers to where Kingdra is a bit more niche in them. Manaphy, Ash-Gren, and Mega Pert just offer a lot more for rain IMO and it's not been used enough to convince me to be B.
- B-. Look man when Pex exists I just have a hard time thinking of reasons to use Suicune. Probably the only meta trend that might be going for it IMO is that Pex's sometimes drop Haze so its easier to PP stall a Pex, but at what cost really?
I think that's about it. There's a lot here and probably not a ton of details as to why things rise or fall, but hopefully I provided just enough context to get balls rolling on discussion for some Pokemon or continue driving discussion for Pokemon. I don't future posts to nitpick C tiers from me. It's not because "I don't care", it's more "there are way bigger fish to fry than worrying about schmuck Pokemon like Terrakion and where it belongs".
I haven't used it in ages, and I'm probably not the best one to discuss its viability, but I would like to point out that Alolan Golem can OHKO Heatran, which Magnezone cannot. This can be achieved with a scarf set and something like the classic eject button Toxapex. Of course, you can also just try to double, but that's risky. Golem also hits Magearna much harder than Magnezone, and deals with every other relevant steel type bar Skarmory. Heatran and Magearna are top tier threats, and eliminating them or softening them up can open up a sweep for Lele, Serperior, Magearna, and other setup sweepers that get stopped by these threats.
But what I really want to talk about is Avalugg. You make some good points, but Avalugg still provides great role compression for stall teams. Not many Pokemon can check icium Kyurem-black, Mega Mawile, SD rocks Lando, and SD rocks Garchomp. Yes, +2 continental crush OHKOs after sturdy is broken, but it can still check flynium/dragonium sets, and there aren't many options for stall anyway. Zapdos drops, Mew drops, Gliscor drops, and Buzzwole lets rocks get up. Avalugg can also beat Mega Gyarados with EQ if it doesn't have taunt (you kind of need to recover, but you can still win if you attack on a predicted taunt). And on the note of Mega Mawile, SD sets can beat you if they SD as you switch in, but EQ and rocky helmet easily puts it in range to be revenge killed by Moltres, Gliscor, or Quagsire. Again, stall has few options to deal with Mawile. Volcarona is great, but it doesn't provide any utility to its team, meaning you'll somehow have to find Pokemon that can spin/defog against relevant threats and check Pokemon that usually require a Pokemon that doesn't get these utility moves. For example, Jirachi can check Lele and Bulu, but if you're also using Volcarona, you'll be strapped for team slots. You'll want Chansey, an unaware Pokemon, and probably Mega Sableye (there's Mega Aggron, but in that case you don't need Volcarona or Jirachi, but you'll struggle with SD rocks Lando/Chomp without Avalugg).
Edit: Malt, while not on the vr (yet?), can check rockium Lando and Garchomp, but drops to flynium Lando. The other threats Avalugg checks can be accounted for with Volcarona, for example, and you won't be strapped for team slots because Malt is your mega. But if you want Sableye, Avalugg is a great pick, and so I think it should stay where it is.
From the Smogon dex: Camerupt's Fire / Ground typing provides a valuable immunity to Electric-type moves and a resistance to Fairy-type moves.
It still does the same thing its always done, and with mons like Clefable, Mega-Mawile, Tapu Koko, and Magearna running around, none of which are below A- (and clefable you just nommed for a raise in viability to A, in which case A would be the lowest), I don't see a reason why it should drop, since it's niche is still there.
Also here is a replay from June 2019 where Mega Cam does its thing against Clefable :
From the Smogon dex: Camerupt's Fire / Ground typing provides a valuable immunity to Electric-type moves and a resistance to Fairy-type moves.
It still does the same thing its always done, and with mons like Clefable, Mega-Mawile, Tapu Koko, and Magearna running around, none of which are below A- (and clefable you just nommed for a raise in viability to A, in which case A would be the lowest), I don't see a reason why it should drop, since it's niche is still there.
Also here is a replay from June 2019 where Mega Cam does its thing against Clefable :
this man just stirring the pot and just to be clear I’m talking about Colonel M
ignoring the dumb useless non reason of i HaVeNt SeEn iT oN lAdDeR oR tOur, they are just wrong reasons
I already talked about mega manetric so ill just go down 1 by 1
"
- UR.*redacted non reason * - Magnezone has been used as the primary Magnet Pull mon *redacted non reason*."
it's main thing Is that it kills heatran and steela. thats super useful
"- UR. Serious question - is this another CBB attempt at Jellicent in SM OU? Because that's what it smells like. *redacted non reason* and while there are some okay paper things about it the mon just screams not worth it. Next."
this is actually pretty decent and to answer I have actually seen it, many times. the band set is nice and the sub set has picked up traction.
"- UR.*redacted non reason* I'd really question its usefulness this time around. It doesn't hit Mawile very well, and Medicham is just a no-go. Chomper and Lando-T have Continental Crush, so that's also bad. Maybe it checks Gliscor? *redacted non reason*"
- ur just a hater, it also is the only thing that counters z kyub but Ive already said this
the rest I really dont care about buty you shouldnt down the ghost fire cubone.its fire
Yh I support Avalugg dropping to UR, but first let me address some false claims.
While Avalugg is able to counter Z Kyub yes, it is by far not the only pokemon that is capable of this. You have pokemon like Jirachi which can do the same, while also beating Lele and Magearna in addition to avoid pursuit trapping from choice users such as Weavile or TTar with protect to scout and then clicking Iron Head if pursuit and switching it if it isn't. Slowbro is another pokemon that can live 2 fusion bolts, has an amazing ability in regen and with a mega evolution if you want even more bulk. Alomomola is another pokemon that comes to mind with amazing bulk and able to support other teammates such as Maggron or Alomuk with wish. These are the first 4 that come to mind and you can see the calcs below.
4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 188+ SpD Jirachi: 116-138 (28.7 - 34.2%) -- 99.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 134-158 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 11.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 180-214 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 222-262 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Now Avalugg is able to check Mega Maw if they are both in and Mawile doesn't have a SD up, but so many other common pokemon are capable of doing the same such as Zapdos and Gliscor which can live a Play Rough + Sucker, and then pokemon like Hippowdon which lives 2 Play Roughs. Checking something with stall doesn't mean much because Stall is both heavily switch-based and susceptible to being voltturned on which could get Mega Maw in on something like Chansey.
The Meta is not the same as it was when Avalugg had a niche. In the Zygarde Meta not only could Avalugg handle most variants of it, but it also benefited from what Zygarde did to the meta which was causing in a rise in more defensive grasses like Tang and defensive sets of Bulu. However, that time has passed. Even pokemon like Swampert which Avalugg could deal with even in rain has started running sets that Avalugg would lose to such as Sub to avoid Toxic or PuP which allows it to break through. Let's not forget that Avalugg also has a horrible defensive typing, especially on stall which is the only playstyle you would use Avalugg in. Having weaknesses to Fighting, Fire and Rock are not ideal when Chansey also has a fighting weakness, many defoggers are part flying and steels like Jirachi and Magearna, one of the few ways to counter dangerous psychics like Lele and CM Mega Zam are also weak to fire.
Avalugg is able to take up a role of hazard removal but even then its only good against a very small portion. Due to its trash spd, any special setters are out of the question and even with some physical setters like Garchomp, it has to be careful due to it having access to Fire Blast which is on more defensive sets. Avalugg also doesn't force out any defensive hazard setters bar Hippowdon, since pokemon like Chansey, Ferrothorn, Skarm and Toxapex just don't care about it. Yes rapid spin has more PP but that doesn't matter when they can either status you with Toxic/Scald Burns and force you out or do something like Leech Seed.
Avalugg is also weak to all forms of hazard removal which makes it even harder to use for that role. I know someone will bring this up so I'll say the difference between Malt and Avalugg is Malt can choose to not mega and so be immune to status and spikes/tspikes so at least the player can make the decision on when to mega. Avalugg on the other hand does not get that choice and switching into spikes + rocks will either put it in range of a lot of moves, or Avalugg will be forced to recover and possibly be forced out next turn which means hazards will be left intact. Also Avalugg has trash speed so unlike defoggers such as Zapdos/Gliscor which can switch into something defensive like Tangrowth or Celesteela at low health and then Roost next turn due to being faster, Avalugg can't even switch into something like Toxapex at 50% because its still 2HKO'd by Scald and its faster.
(0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 96-114 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- 99.3% chance to 4HKO)
A bit long I know, but this sums up my thoughts on Avalugg and why it should be UR. TLDR; what it does isn't unique, it can't remove hazards against a majority of setters, bad defensive typing and low speed plus being vulnerable to all hazards in addition to unfavourable shifts in the meta is why I feel its niche is long gone.
First, THANK GOD somebody finally addressed this. It really is a terrible argument. Although the low ranks could definitely use some cleaning, saying stuff should be UR for this sole reason is not a good look, especially when their niche is still there.
Next I want to add a little bit to the discussion of avalugg. Mons mentioned above (Jirachi, Slowbro, Alo) are not true counters to Z-Kyub considering that it's usually paired with Koko (seriously when was the last time you saw Kyub without Koko) and with an adamant nature (idc what anybody says adamant is definitely superior) and terrain boost, Fusion Bolt can deal massive damage to these. Avalugg takes very little damage from all of its attacks. Also, Mega Aggron is a more popular catch all physical wall on stalls than Avalugg, but it is more vulnerable to repeated Earth Powers with teravolt and terrain boosted Fusion Bolts due to it's lack of recovery. Aggron is paired with wish support pretty much all the time though which makes Avalugg's niche less needed so table probably shouldn't be very high at all if it remains ranked. But the niche is still there considering Aggron takes up the mega slot.
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi in Electric Terrain: 220-259 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Electric Terrain: 296-350 (75.1 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega in Electric Terrain: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Electric Terrain: 366-432 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lastly, I just want to talk about some of the noms.
The fact Kommo and Manaphy haven't risen yet still blows my mind. Both of these mons are practically faces of their respective team archetypes (HO for clanger, rain for mana). It's all been said before but Kommo is way too versatile and deadly to be ranked as low as it is. Outside of it's patented Clangorous Soulblaze set, the belly drum set with screens still can steal games and sometimes win at preview, it's defensive set gives it use outside of offense, and there are other weird things I've seen like band and SD which aren't that great but demonstrate its versatility.
And then Manaphy is pretty much the third staple on rain, having the ability to turn once painful stall match ups to relatively easy wins; something rain desperately needed. I personally don't see a reason as to why it shouldn't be ranked alongside Pelipper and Swampert at this point, but B+ works too. I think the fact that stuff like Shedinja, Gastro, Ditto, CM unaware Clef are either popping up or making resurgances on bulky teams shows how it's impacted the meta.
I agree with most of the other rises like Skarm, Clef, Kyub, Ditto, Drill, but I'm really not sure about some of the noms that involve the A+ and S ranks. Ash Greninja to A+ is really ballsy; even though it has common answers it can still get through them alongside team support while offering spike support for offensive partners. Ash Gren still breaks all sorts of teams and is probably the #1 thing you must prepare for, alongside Mag, if you want to have an enjoyable game lol. Gliscor might've peaked like last month and with adaptations rising and some more time I think Gliscor won't be A+ worthy anymore fairly shortly, so I'm not sure if it's too late to bother raising it or not. Medicham and Kart noms are things I am both unsure of and would have to abstain.
Next I want to add a little bit to the discussion of avalugg. Mons mentioned above (Jirachi, Slowbro, Alo) are not true counters to Z-Kyub considering that it's usually paired with Koko (seriously when was the last time you saw Kyub without Koko) and with an adamant nature (idc what anybody says adamant is definitely superior) and terrain boost, Fusion Bolt can deal massive damage to these. Avalugg takes very little damage from all of its attacks
This statement is actually wrong in so many ways. First of all, when kyurem is paired with koko it's usually life orb, which, according to smogon, runs either hp fire or earth power. It also runs much more spatk investment to actually deal damage with ice beam. But if we theoretically say that it is life orb + physical attacks then Avalugg still doesn't do too well, as the extra special coverage move still 3hkos. Also, adamant being better is a subjective opinion, and most kyurems still run jolly.
Here are the calcs for comparison.
Against LO kyurem with min spatk.
4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 182-214 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 188+ SpD Jirachi: 151-179 (37.4 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Against kyurem with z move
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Avalugg: 65-77 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi in Electric Terrain: 201-237 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Against kyurem with max spatk LO
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 188+ SpD Jirachi: 185-218 (45.9 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 222-263 (56.3 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
PS: Standard avalugg doesn't run lefties, so don't come at me saying that I removed avaluggs lefties to prove my point.
These calcs are heavily based on it being max attack, and jirachi still does a better job when it comes to countering ALL kyurem B sets compared to avalugg, which only counters the Z move set. Overall, jirachi is a much safer mon to use, since it checks the max attack Z set + electric terrain while countering the LO set. Avalugg counters the Z set but doesn't even check the LO set.
I've used avalugg (charmflashes team) and while I don't think it's unviable, I do think that it's niche is starting to become less and less relevant as the generation has passed and even though it does really well against some mons, it struggles heavily against most of the current metagame.
Here’s a controversial one, which I think many won’t agree
Tornadus-T from A+ —> S-
Ever since USUM, Torn has gotten a lot of tour usage.
It’s an amazing offensive and defensive pivot, and with Z-Hurricane, it can easily KO stuff
like Garchomp, Clefable, Ferrothorn, Landorus-T, etc. and defog away all their rocks
Helmet Torn is easily one of my favorite OU Pokèmon, and can be super useful in
most situations, because it’s one of the premier Kartana and CB Bulu switch ins.
Another HUGE buff to Torn was defog. In USUM, it gets defog as a tutor move,
and that caused it viability to go way up, taking it from B- rank all the way up
to a A+ ranking. All in all, Tornadus is incredibly good and is deserving of a S- ranking.
TL;DR: Defog and Z-Moves gave it a huge buff, and that should be enough give it S status.
Latias from C- to UR
Seriously? Why even bother with this mon, when there are scarfers like Jirachi or Lando, who provide pretty much the same things, but with a few other tools, like U-Turn. Theres really no point in using Latias when you could literally be using any other scarfer. It’s a waste of a team slot, and I hate to be the one to say “wEll, whEn WaS tHe lAsT tiMe yOu saW iT oN The lAdDer??” but I mean, when was the last time you saw it in any serious game? lol
Skarmory from C+ to B or B+
Skarm is definitely at it’s highest point in the entire gen 7 meta. It’s on all kinds of teams, and I’ve seen it used on way more squads than 3 or 4 months ago. Stall and balance could use a Skarm, since it naturally walls SO much stuff, like Kartana, Bulu, Lele, Landorus, Clefable, Excadrill, Mawile (kind of), Garchomp, Scizor, and many more. It’s a hazard machine, and due to it’s immense bulk and amazing typing, it has no trouble setting them up.
ZyDog from C- to UR
Why the hell did we even rank this anyways? It’s comepletely and utterly useless in this meta. It does have a niche, but
it’s niche isn’t good enough to give it a ranking. Many people have compared it to Jellicent, since it was also ranked, but it was not good. At all. Just like Zygarde-10%. It’s only decent trait is Thousand Arrows, which I guess is pretty good, but it’s a terrible mon. There’s literally no reason to NOT de-rank it.
while some might think this is a sharp overreaction to ditto's recent success, i believe a huge rise is warranted given how much ditto has reshaped the meta. ditto changes the dynamics of pokemon in ways similar to other gimmick pokemon like dugtrio (obviously nowhere near as powerful though). the ranking teams have always struggled with ranking unique pokemon like this, but i think you guys should look past "splashability" given how much ditto changes the way the game is played, lol.
some other minor noms:
chansey could go to A rank imo. SM is a pretty wild tier, making it really hard to counter everything, so chansey is especially good here since it can wall pretty much every special attacker in one. we all knew this already, ofc, but this SSD and OLT has seen chansey balance going from something viable to something viable AND extremely successful.
mawile to S: this pokemon is hella broken, has been probably brought up the most in that PR thread. definitely on par with everything else in S, probably even better honestly. the sub punch sets we've seen lately have been putting in work for sure maybe kartana could rise too.
seismitoad to somewhere in B: rocks + water immunity + ground in one is good, who woulda thought.
A+ -> A
B -> B+
B- -> B or even B+ in Zard Y's case
C- -> UR
→ A+
→ A
→ A
→ C+
→ Higher
:
