Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

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i think ditto should be A rank.

while some might think this is a sharp overreaction to ditto's recent success, i believe a huge rise is warranted given how much ditto has reshaped the meta. ditto changes the dynamics of pokemon in ways similar to other gimmick pokemon like dugtrio (obviously nowhere near as powerful though). the ranking teams have always struggled with ranking unique pokemon like this, but i think you guys should look past "splashability" given how much ditto changes the way the game is played, lol.

some other minor noms:

chansey could go to A rank imo. SM is a pretty wild tier, making it really hard to counter everything, so chansey is especially good here since it can wall pretty much every special attacker in one. we all knew this already, ofc, but this SSD and OLT has seen chansey balance going from something viable to something viable AND extremely successful.

mawile to S: this pokemon is hella broken, has been probably brought up the most in that PR thread. definitely on par with everything else in S, probably even better honestly. the sub punch sets we've seen lately have been putting in work for sure maybe kartana could rise too.

seismitoad to somewhere in B: rocks + water immunity + ground in one is good, who woulda thought.
 
i think ditto should be A rank.

while some might think this is a sharp overreaction to ditto's recent success, i believe a huge rise is warranted given how much ditto has reshaped the meta. ditto changes the dynamics of pokemon in ways similar to other gimmick pokemon like dugtrio (obviously nowhere near as powerful though). the ranking teams have always struggled with ranking unique pokemon like this, but i think you guys should look past "splashability" given how much ditto changes the way the game is played, lol.

some other minor noms:

chansey could go to A rank imo. SM is a pretty wild tier, making it really hard to counter everything, so chansey is especially good here since it can wall pretty much every special attacker in one. we all knew this already, ofc, but this SSD and OLT has seen chansey balance going from something viable to something viable AND extremely successful.

mawile to S: this pokemon is hella broken, has been probably brought up the most in that PR thread. definitely on par with everything else in S, probably even better honestly. the sub punch sets we've seen lately have been putting in work for sure maybe kartana could rise too.

seismitoad to somewhere in B: rocks + water immunity + ground in one is good, who woulda thought.
I 90% agree, but isn’t A a little far? DEFINITELY B or B+, but I believe A is a bit of a stretch, because Ditto can’t really compare to the A rank gods like M-Latias, M-Medi, M-TTar, all the Tapus, and Rotom-Wash.
 
Nah I don’t think anything has actually changed for ditto. It’s always been an anti cheese pick; it’s just taken people two years to figure out that USUM has broken matchups, and uncoverable range of threats, which is coincidentally why dugtrio trapping was banned.

I’m doubling down on the cofagrigus nom I made above. It comes in on mawile, which not much else can do.

Raise Mttar, celesteela and fat volc. Drop mega zam and ash greninja
 
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Colonel M

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I 90% agree, but isn’t A a little far? DEFINITELY B or B+, but I believe A is a bit of a stretch, because Ditto can’t really compare to the A rank gods like M-Latias, M-Medi, M-TTar, all the Tapus, and Rotom-Wash.
I don't think it's completely unreasonable. Ditto's contributions throughout the entirety of this year alone are very hard to brush off. I'll admit A might be a little much, but I wouldn't even deny it possibly being A- material.

Ditto is a unique specimen because it can control a lot of what's going on in the game. It isn't perfect and there are certainly moments it may not do everything you want it to, but it's an insane control mechanism that gives outs to some problems that teams would otherwise struggle against. You also make their most threatening Pokemon a potential threat against them. Mega Medicham is a great example here. Copying Mega Medicham can be terrifying for teams because sometimes their check is Helmet Torn-T. What makes Mega Medicham even scarier is that it has the opportunity to strike twice - which can be troublesome if Torn-T is a bit more chipped than normal.

A is probably high. B+ is I think a comfort spot, but A- isn't totally out of the question either. It's versatile and very dangerous against certain teams, and much like Kyurem-B it can drastically change games. Either way Ditto, like Kommo-o, really needs to rise.
 
I’m doubling down on the cofagrigus nom I made above. It comes in on mawile, which not much else can do.
How exactly does it come in on Mawile? I know it removes it’s Huge Power, but Play Rough is doing 48-57% to Cofag, and at +2 it has a 75% chance to OHKO. Plus, doesn’t mummy reset after you switch? I’m not 100% sure about this, but I think it does.
 

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How exactly does it come in on Mawile? I know it removes it’s Huge Power, but Play Rough is doing 48-57% to Cofag, and at +2 it has a 75% chance to OHKO. Plus, doesn’t mummy reset after you switch? I’m not 100% sure about this, but I think it does.
When you switch out your ability will reset, yes.

That said I would say the bigger problem is taking Knock Off from Mega Mawile if you're not too healthy. That's doing about 69% minimum - before Stealth Rock and Spikes factored in. That's enough to 2HKO by the way, so at best you might stop it from going ham once or twice if it has Knock Off (those that lack is a different story I admit). I dont really feel about the mon either way, but I think in terms of stopping Mega Mawile you don't really tell the whole truth on that either.
 
How exactly does it come in on Mawile? I know it removes it’s Huge Power, but Play Rough is doing 48-57% to Cofag, and at +2 it has a 75% chance to OHKO. Plus, doesn’t mummy reset after you switch? I’m not 100% sure about this, but I think it does.
If Mawile clicks any move that isn’t knock off, then cofagrigus can wisp, painsplit, tspike etc. and if you run icium haze, then you take knock too— though I don’t think it’s the optimal set. More importantly, it effectively can pivot on mawile, taking any hit and then peacing-out. Turns out it’s way easier to swap on maw after it doesn’t have 600 attack. A huge reason mawile is so threatening is that it’s so hard to switch around its moves on predictions. And there’s all the other stuff that it walls too that I mention in the earlier post, which I’m not going to rewrite here. (You can’t tell me walling Medicham, lop, kart, or punishing torn u-turn isn’t big stuff)
 
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Hello

View attachment 195098
Cofagrigus to C

Cofagrigus @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Mummy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball / Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Toxic Spikes
- Pain Split / Knock Off / Z-Haze

IDK why this was ever ranked in the first place for its OTR set; defensive so much better. With Mega Mawile and Medicham all over the place, it is a great time to use mummyboi. Use Z haze if you can afford the Z-move, but otherwise, it better to punish with helmet and recover with pain-split. Leave the setup check to pex.

Currently popular stuff that this stops:
  • Mega Mawile
  • Mega Medicham
  • Mega Lopunny
  • Lando-T (Fat and scarf)
  • Torn T (stop regen and get chip on uturn)
  • Hawlucha (loses unburden)
  • Kartana (non-banded)
  • SpD Bulu
  • Mega Swampert (stops sweep)
  • Gliscor (if you can trick one into making contact w/ you)
There are obviously the other non-meta dependent factors like being a nice spin blocker, being FAT, and setting T-spikes, the latter of which is very nice with current psychic spam. But you already know all that.

Page of calcs in case you doubting the beefy-ness
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 154-183 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 121-144 (37.8 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
High Jump Kick 37.8 - 45% (50% crash damage)
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 121-144 (37.8 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
232 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 97-115 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 42.3% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 172-204 (53.7 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 105-124 (32.8 - 38.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO (50% change to KO back with shadow ball after helmet damage)
252 Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus in Rain: 121-144 (37.8 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Jordy you know you love it. One sec for replay pls
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-977052270
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-977079973
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-977084947
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-977089009

Cofagrigus Offense (heh): https://pokepast.es/f9ca5b007d66ba9b
i didnt see this before the man here is very correct. if used correctly, in the current very stale meta, this coffin can ruin teams entire makeup and plans. this set in particular doesnt have to be exact but the idea is to wall and ruin the current huge sweepers. it's particularly cool as an emergency check late game as many mons rely on their abilities in ou, and if pair it with mons that can exploit that it's GG. the otr isnt that good, maybe C rank but the defensive one could be B- imo. it can use a lot more sets than this and can disrupt playing styles if giving the chance, my fav being regen mons
 
One question of mine is how MVenu is only B Tier.
It packs a great ability, bulk, decent SpA, a good movepool( though a sufferer of 4MSS) Leech Seed, and semi-reliable recovery.
I think A- would be appropriate since it hits all Tapus (except Lele which can't switch in) which are A rank rn, hits Clefable, Skarmory, and MScizor and Ferro(ish) and the rare Scizor. All major threats in the current meta
 
One question of mine is how MVenu is only B Tier.
It packs a great ability, bulk, decent SpA, a good movepool( though a sufferer of 4MSS) Leech Seed, and semi-reliable recovery.
I think A- would be appropriate since it hits all Tapus (except Lele which can't switch in) which are A rank rn, hits Clefable, Skarmory, and MScizor and Ferro(ish) and the rare Scizor. All major threats in the current meta
I believe the main problems with Mega Venu are opportunity cost and it's recovery.
Although Mega Venu is bulkier and can blanket check more than other grass types, things such as Amoonguss, Tangrowth, etc. can serve a similar role while not taking up a mega slot. Without leftovers recovery or Regen like some of the other grasses it can be worn down, especially when taking repeated hits. Synthesis also doesn't cut it in a longer game due to its low PP. Synthesis also makes Mega Venu not a very good answer to rain, which is something required by your grass in this meta. Yeah it can stomach hits from rain abusers, but it can be worn down a lot considering it will only gain 25% back in rain and ferro can just absorb leech seed and stack hazards under rain even if venu is packing hp fire. Torn is also a rain staple and can pivot into venu, limiting its effectiveness, and venu offers little to no help against manaphy as it is weak to +3 psychic and doesn't even really have room for a grass move. Venu can also be a nuisance spreading leech seed and fishing for sludge bomb poisons, but other grasses provide utility venu doesn't such as knock off for tangrowth, hazards for ferro, spore/stun spore/clear smog for amoonguss and terrain for bulky bulu. Not to mention sand has been on the rise as well which is another weather condition that hampers synthesis.
Overall, while still an effective all purpose wall that can take on some key threats, the fact there are other grass types that offer a similar role and also extra utility makes it difficult to use your mega on venusaur.
 
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I believe the main problems with Mega Venu are opportunity cost and it's recovery.
Although Mega Venu is bulkier and can blanket check more than other grass types, things such as Amoonguss, Tangrowth, etc. can serve a similar role while not taking up a mega slot. Without leftovers recovery or Regen like some of the other grasses it can be worn down, especially when taking repeated hits. Synthesis also doesn't cut it in a longer game due to its low PP. Synthesis also makes Mega Venu not a very good answer to rain, which is something required by your grass in this meta. Yeah it can stomach hits from rain abusers, but it can be worn down a lot considering it will only gain 25% back in rain and ferro can just absorb leech seed and stack hazards under rain even if venu is packing hp fire. Torn is also a rain staple and can pivot into venu, limiting its effectiveness, and venu offers little to no help against manaphy is it is weak to +3 psychic and doesn't even really have room for a grass move. Venu can also be a nuisance spreading leech seed and fishing for sludge bomb poisons, but other grasses provide utility venu doesn't such as knock off for tangrowth, hazards for ferro, spore/stun spore/clear smog for amoonguss and terrain for bulky bulu. Not to mention sand has been on the rise as well which is another weather condition that hampers synthesis.
Overall, while still an effective all purpose wall that can take on some key threats, the fact there are other grass types that offer a similar role and also extra utility makes it difficult to use your mega on venusaur.
It carries Knock Off, Powders, and even EQ to bait Heatran.
Yes I know it generally doesn't have room, but the main reason I see it hampering it is its severe 4MSS.
However, I don't think this blocks it enough to at least move it up to B+, especially when it checks so many grasses that amoonguss and other grasses you mentioned can't
 

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It carries Knock Off, Powders, and even EQ to bait Heatran.
Yes I know it generally doesn't have room, but the main reason I see it hampering it is its severe 4MSS.
However, I don't think this blocks it enough to at least move it up to B+, especially when it checks so many grasses that amoonguss and other grasses you mentioned can't
Those are really hard for Mega Venusaur to fit in. It really needs Sludge Bomb to be one of the better, if not best, checks to Tapu Bulu (and Koko I guess). Hidden Power Fire is also big so it isnt vulnerable to Kartana switching in freely while also having ammunition against Mega Mawile. Leech Seed is what helps keep Mega Venusaur healthy and not as prone to weather as Synthesis can be.

I think with sand keeping up in strength Mega Venusaur is kind of hurting. Mega Medicham gaining popularity and Kyurem-Black laughing at the mere concept of "Thick Fat" doesn't really help it either. While Leech Seed is annoying Kommo-o can take advantage of it too since its immune to Sludge Bomb. Still an okay Mega - just don't quite think it's B+ material personally. Zard X can swing games harder at the moment, and I think Mega Sableye is more consistent than Mega Venusaur can be too (mostly doing this as a cross-comparison of mons in the B+ tier - not saying they do the same things MVenu does). Either way I dont think you can really dismiss 4 MSS - you should focus on what's changed in the metagame to make it worthwhile to rise and compare it to what's in B+ at the moment.
 
Hello

1568661241057.png

Cofagrigus to C

Cofagrigus @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Mummy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball / Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Toxic Spikes
- Pain Split / Knock Off / Z-Haze

IDK why this was ever ranked in the first place for its OTR set; defensive so much better. With Mega Mawile and Medicham all over the place, it is a great time to use mummyboi. Use Z haze if you can afford the Z-move, but otherwise, it better to punish with helmet and recover with pain-split. Leave the setup check to pex.

Currently popular stuff that this stops:
  • Mega Mawile
  • Mega Medicham
  • Mega Lopunny
  • Lando-T (Fat and scarf)
  • Torn T (stop regen and get chip on uturn)
  • Hawlucha (loses unburden)
  • Kartana (non-banded)
  • SpD Bulu
  • Mega Swampert (stops sweep)
  • Gliscor (if you can trick one into making contact w/ you)
There are obviously the other non-meta dependent factors like being a nice spin blocker, being FAT, and setting T-spikes, the latter of which is very nice with current psychic spam. But you already know all that.

Page of calcs in case you doubting the beefy-ness
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 154-183 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 121-144 (37.8 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
High Jump Kick 37.8 - 45% (50% crash damage)
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 121-144 (37.8 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
232 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 97-115 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 42.3% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 172-204 (53.7 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 105-124 (32.8 - 38.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO (50% change to KO back with shadow ball after helmet damage)
252 Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus in Rain: 121-144 (37.8 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Jordy you know you love it. One sec for replay pls
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-977052270
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-977079973
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-977084947
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-977089009

Cofagrigus Offense (heh): https://pokepast.es/f9ca5b007d66ba9b
I disagree with this post heavily, mainly because Cofagrigus barely beats most physical setup mons in the tier, which is it's main niche over the other physical walls in the tier. Sure, it beats most of the physical scarfers and non knock off megas, but that's about it and there are much better mons that already do that, while bring better utility to the table.

My first problem with cofagrigus is that it is extremely status weak but has no reliable recovery to speak of. This hinders it heavily, as it can never check any mons that viably run knock off, hampering it's physical tanking heavily.

My second problem with it is that it's very easy to get it into OHKO range with alot of mons if it's not running leftovers thanks to hazards being very punishing for Cofagrigus. For an example, after two rounds of rocks or after any slight amount of chip damage, it's within +2 rockium z range. Meaning that, unless you're running double defog (which hinders team building greatly), lefties is the only viable item it can run on balance. Which is also another problem, it is extremely 1 dimensional, both on the teamstyles it's viable on and in sets. But unlike say toxapex, it doesn't wall 90% of the metagame (not saying that they're comparable, just saying that being 1 dimensional by itself isn't bad).

My third problem is that it's a terrible hazard setter. Most defogers actually switch into and scare out Cofagrigus, since it only beats physical defogers that hate being burnt. It also does no damage with shadow ball against most of the OU metagame. Here's a list of which defogers it doesn't beat

Serperior: Specifically scarf serperior threatens it out with both knock off and leaf storm while also being capable of defoging.

Zapdos: Discharge hurts, even uninvested and it freely switches in too.

Skarmory: Basically just sets up hazards cuz skarm and pex pair up well.

Pelipper: It's spdef sucks, but rain boosted scalds still sting like hell.

Rotom-wash: Tbf, burning wash hurts it alot but getting burnt also hurts alot so you either trade a burn for a burn, get volt switched on or freely allow a defog.

Tornadus-Therian: Defensive torn soaks up shadow balls and doesn't really mind being burnt. Offensive does the same, except it has to not U-turn on it. Cofagrigus can't stay in, as risking lefties or taking up to 50% from hurricane is a death sentence.

Tapu-fini: Yeah, unless you're using knock off (don't use knock off) it's a hard wall.

The list of mons it stops is actually inaccurate. I will blame this on the loose definition of the word stop, but using stop in this instance makes it seem like it's a full on counter, or atleast it does too me. Here're my explanations

Mega-Mawile: It learns knock off and +2 max attack play rough ohkos. Even if you predict an ice punch, it's still gonna sting like hell.

Mega-Medicham: I'd call Cofagrigus a check at most, zen headbutt does a massive amount of damage, and combined with rocks, cofagrigus isn't gonna do much walling.

Mega-Loppuny: I'd say that Cofagrigus does ok. Hjk does around as much as Mega-Medichams zen headbutt (37.8 - 45%) but mega lop isn't as inclined to go for hjk first thing against most teams with a bulky flying type.

(Bulky and scarf) Lando T: I'd say that it checks this aswell, the fact that eq stings like hell if it's not helmet and that Cofagrigus is a huge momentum sponge is a pain since lando can just bring in anything that viably runs knock off and scare it out.

Hawlucha: Nothing to add, excellent counter were it not for it being worn down easily. Still a counter though.

Tornadus-Therian: Yeah no, it's not even a check. Hurricane from offensive 2hkos most of the time, knock off cripples it heavily and U-turn is huge for momentum (though less stellar than the other two).

Kartana: It gets kncok off, which scarf runs alot. It's a solid check to sd Kartana, but that's about it.

SPD Bulu: It's a good spdef bulu counter, especially since grassy terrain is extremely good for it.

Mega- Swampert: I'd say that checking pert isn't a big deal if you can't check rain, which cofagrigus doesn't do well at all. Even if it's paired with a bulky grass or Toxapex, gren will most likely just spike on the switch, which hi´nders Cofagrigus greatly. I could see Tapu-fini being a good partner for it, but that blocks out Tapu-bulu so it's meh.

Gliscor: It doesn't even check it. Not only does it give gliscor free setup, but it's almost impossible to trick it into making contact with Cofagrigus, since the only time it will make contact is with knock off. The support sets just get a free toxic off or set up hazards. It's actually the opposite, gliscor is a counter to Cofagrigus.

And as a last note, I'd also like to say that Cofagrigus is terrible against stall/balance and needs heavy support to actually beat any of them. Sure, you can just slap on a gliscor, but with it's rise in popularity, people are actually using counters to it on stall. Also, skarm + quag win the pp stall war so it's not really a hard counter.

Thunder Pwoell

I have actually used a defensive variant on a BO I made a few years ago. I wanted something that could counter Mega Medicham but also had room for lefties in it's item slot. But after playing around with it on ladder I realised that it wasn't very impressive. Mine was knock off > T spikes so that part was theory crafted however. I might have been a little harsh on Cofagrigus, which is a mistake I commonly make when it comes to mons I don't feel should be in OU. But I still stand by my opinion of Cofagriguses viability.
 
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I disagree with this post heavily, mainly because Cofagrigus barely beats most physical setup mons in the tier, which is it's main niche over the other physical walls in the tier. Sure, it beats most of the physical scarfers and non knock off megas, but that's about it and there are much better mons that already do that, while bring better utility to the table.

My first problem with cofagrigus is that it is extremely status weak but has no reliable recovery to speak of. This hinders it heavily, as it can never check any mons that viably run knock off, hampering it's physical tanking heavily.

My second problem with it is that it's very easy to get it into OHKO range with alot of mons if it's not running leftovers thanks to hazards being very punishing for Cofagrigus. For an example, after two rounds of rocks or after any slight amount of chip damage, it's within +2 rockium z range. Meaning that, unless you're running double defog (which hinders team building greatly), lefties is the only viable item it can run on balance. Which is also another problem, it is extremely 1 dimensional, both on the teamstyles it's viable on and in sets. But unlike say toxapex, it doesn't wall 90% of the metagame (not saying that they're comparable, just saying that being 1 dimensional by itself isn't bad).

My third problem is that it's a terrible hazard setter. Most defogers actually switch into and scare out Cofagrigus, since it only beats physical defogers that hate being burnt. It also does no damage with shadow ball against most of the OU metagame. Here's a list of which defogers it doesn't beat

Serperior: Specifically scarf serperior threatens it out with both knock off and leaf storm while also being capable of defoging.

Zapdos: Discharge hurts, even uninvested and it freely switches in too.

Skarmory: Basically just sets up hazards cuz skarm and pex pair up well.

Pelipper: It's spdef sucks, but rain boosted scalds still sting like hell.

Rotom-wash: Tbf, burning wash hurts it alot but getting burnt also hurts alot so you either trade a burn for a burn, get volt switched on or freely allow a defog.

Tornadus-Therian: Defensive torn soaks up shadow balls and doesn't really mind being burnt. Offensive does the same, except it has to not U-turn on it. Cofagrigus can't stay in, as risking lefties or taking up to 50% from hurricane is a death sentence.

Tapu-fini: Yeah, unless you're using knock off (don't use knock off) it's a hard wall.

The list of mons it stops is actually inaccurate. I will blame this on the loose definition of the word stop, but using stop in this instance makes it seem like it's a full on counter, or atleast it does too me. Here're my explanations

Mega-Mawile: It learns knock off and +2 max attack play rough ohkos. Even if you predict an ice punch, it's still gonna sting like hell.

Mega-Medicham: I'd call Cofagrigus a check at most, zen headbutt does a massive amount of damage, and combined with rocks, cofagrigus isn't gonna do much walling.

Mega-Loppuny: I'd say that Cofagrigus does ok. Hjk does around as much as Mega-Medichams zen headbutt (37.8 - 45%) but mega lop isn't as inclined to go for hjk first thing against most teams with a bulky flying type.

(Bulky and scarf) Lando T: I'd say that it checks this aswell, the fact that eq stings like hell if it's not helmet and that Cofagrigus is a huge momentum sponge is a pain since lando can just bring in anything that viably runs knock off and scare it out.

Hawlucha: Nothing to add, excellent counter were it not for it being worn down easily. Still a counter though.

Tornadus-Therian: Yeah no, it's not even a check. Hurricane from offensive 2hkos most of the time, knock off cripples it heavily and U-turn is huge for momentum (though less stellar than the other two).

Kartana: It gets kncok off, which scarf runs alot. It's a solid check to sd Kartana, but that's about it.

SPD Bulu: It's a good spdef bulu counter, especially since grassy terrain is extremely good for it.

Mega- Swampert: I'd say that checking pert isn't a big deal if you can't check rain, which cofagrigus doesn't do well at all. Even if it's paired with a bulky grass or Toxapex, gren will most likely just spike on the switch, which hi´nders Cofagrigus greatly. I could see Tapu-fini being a good partner for it, but that blocks out Tapu-bulu so it's meh.

Gliscor: It doesn't even check it. Not only does it give gliscor free setup, but it's almost impossible to trick it into making contact with Cofagrigus, since the only time it will make contact is with knock off. The support sets just get a free toxic off or set up hazards. It's actually the opposite, gliscor is a counter to Cofagrigus.

And as a last note, I'd also like to say that Cofagrigus is terrible against stall/balance and needs heavy support to actually beat any of them. Sure, you can just slap on a gliscor, but with it's rise in popularity, people are actually using counters to it on stall. Also, skarm + quag win the pp stall war so it's not really a hard counter.
question before the response: before I respond to this fully, please tag me in an edit that you make in your original post so that I am sure. Have you actually used cof or are all of these just theories of yours and pessimism. The way I respond is going to be very different depending on your answer

ok so you did use it but you admit on being harsh. Not that it matters at this point, but when using this mon you should have a plan and keep it for late game or an emergencies. removing huge power or scrappy is not a small feat at all, and it can win u the game. IS it the best mon in the tier - no, but it deserves recognition for sure. It can wall bulky mons and stop physical sweeps that rely on abilities such as rain sweeps and sand sweeps. Since you have used it, I won't be mean and say a bunch of non sequiturs but I will say that just because you havent had success with it, does not mean that there is evidence of it being bad.


pomfpomfpluff
 
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Those are really hard for Mega Venusaur to fit in. It really needs Sludge Bomb to be one of the better, if not best, checks to Tapu Bulu (and Koko I guess). Hidden Power Fire is also big so it isnt vulnerable to Kartana switching in freely while also having ammunition against Mega Mawile. Leech Seed is what helps keep Mega Venusaur healthy and not as prone to weather as Synthesis can be.

I think with sand keeping up in strength Mega Venusaur is kind of hurting. Mega Medicham gaining popularity and Kyurem-Black laughing at the mere concept of "Thick Fat" doesn't really help it either. While Leech Seed is annoying Kommo-o can take advantage of it too since its immune to Sludge Bomb. Still an okay Mega - just don't quite think it's B+ material personally. Zard X can swing games harder at the moment, and I think Mega Sableye is more consistent than Mega Venusaur can be too (mostly doing this as a cross-comparison of mons in the B+ tier - not saying they do the same things MVenu does). Either way I dont think you can really dismiss 4 MSS - you should focus on what's changed in the metagame to make it worthwhile to rise and compare it to what's in B+ at the moment.
It also checks Fini, and Lele can't switch in on Sludge Bomb
Honestly, since all Tapus are A tier and as MVenu hits them all so hard, as well as Serp, Tang, and Clefable, it should be B+, possible A-
Also how do you see the metagame trends I just base it off experience
(like percentages that they're being used and stuff)
 
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Hello, I'd like to suggest the following, as I disagree with Manaphy's placement in the VR:

Pokémonsprite_490_XY.gif


Manaphy B -> B+

Reasoning: Manaphy is not a meta defining Pokemon, I think we can all agree on it being too passive to be worthy of the A- rank, but I don't think it gets credited enough for what it does for the rain playstyle. Tail Glow lets it rapidly boost its Special Attack to staggering heights and Rest gives it immediate perfect recovery in rain, removing status and fully healing it. It is without a doubt the best breaker option for rain, a playstyle which is sort of known for breaking its teeth on stall due to a slight disability of reliably sustaining a breaking effort as most rain staples tend to be passive support Pokemon (Ferrothorn, AV Magearna, Pelipper), or nimble sweepers/fast punchy pivots (Tornadus-Therian, Tapu Koko (/, Hawlucha), Ash-Greninja, Mega Swampert). There are numerous breaker options for rain outside of Manaphy, Crawdaunt and Azumarill immediately come to mind, but those lack the recovery required to be as over the board effective as Manaphy, which doesn't have this problem. Overall my summed up reasoning is, that it elevates rain to a new height instead of just augmenting strengths that are already prevalent, which is why I think of it as deserving of the B+ rank.
 
It also checks Fini, and Lele can't switch in on Sludge Bomb
Honestly, since all Tapus are A tier and as MVenu hits them all so hard, as well as Serp, Tang, and Clefable, it should be B+, possible A-
Also how do you see the metagame trends I just base it off experience
(like percentages that they're being used and stuff)
Mega veno is fine were its at. Its slow speed and and damage is kind lacking. Also it can't come in on Lele, unless it wants to get 1 hit ko by psychic. If tornadus is going to rise in the ranks, thats also not good. Most of the time you are better using amoonguss or tangrowth. Nothing wants to switch on amoonguss most of the time unless you want to get hit by spore. And most mons do not want to switch in on tangrowth, cause of knock off. The worst mega veno is going to hit you with is leech seed like 98% of the time.
 
- B-. Look man when Pex exists I just have a hard time thinking of reasons to use Suicune. Probably the only meta trend that might be going for it IMO is that Pex's sometimes drop Haze so its easier to PP stall a Pex, but at what cost really?

I think that's about it. There's a lot here and probably not a ton of details as to why things rise or fall, but hopefully I provided just enough context to get balls rolling on discussion for some Pokemon or continue driving discussion for Pokemon. I don't future posts to nitpick C tiers from me. It's not because "I don't care", it's more "there are way bigger fish to fry than worrying about schmuck Pokemon like Terrakion and where it belongs".
Sorry for the short post but I'd like to quickly address your Suicune nomination.

With Knock Off support Suicune is able to pressure (I know, funny choice of words) Toxapex a great deal since burn will cut into its HP significantly, forcing it to Recover more than Toxapex would like to. Toxapex is also relatively easy to Knock Off if you build your team with the intent to do so as it is the main switch-in to a myriad of different Pokemon learning the move and it usually doesnt get crippled a great deal by it, either. It is noteworthy that Haze, too, is affected by pressure.

Overall, Suicune vs. Toxapex is more of a stalemate that eventually favors Suicune (in most instances) than a terrible matchup for Suicune, especially if Toxapex has been knocked.

Pretty good post otherwise tho :blobthumbsup:
 

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Sorry for the short post but I'd like to quickly address your Suicune nomination.

With Knock Off support Suicune is able to pressure (I know, funny choice of words) Toxapex a great deal since burn will cut into its HP significantly, forcing it to Recover more than Toxapex would like to. Toxapex is also relatively easy to Knock Off if you build your team with the intent to do so as it is the main switch-in to a myriad of different Pokemon learning the move and it usually doesnt get crippled a great deal by it, either. It is noteworthy that Haze, too, is affected by pressure.

Overall, Suicune vs. Toxapex is more of a stalemate that eventually favors Suicune (in most instances) than a terrible matchup for Suicune, especially if Toxapex has been knocked.

Pretty good post otherwise tho :blobthumbsup:
That's true. You are right - Knock Off support and burning Pex will eventually wear it out one-on-one and Pressure will help it win in the PP war too. I apologize for the poor wording on that and didn't mean to intentionally provide false information, and thank you for pointing that out.
 
Mega veno is fine were its at. Its slow speed and and damage is kind lacking. Also it can't come in on Lele, unless it wants to get 1 hit ko by psychic. If tornadus is going to rise in the ranks, thats also not good. Most of the time you are better using amoonguss or tangrowth. Nothing wants to switch on amoonguss most of the time unless you want to get hit by spore. And most mons do not want to switch in on tangrowth, cause of knock off. The worst mega veno is going to hit you with is leech seed like 98% of the time.
Speed doesn't need to be mentioned, there are plenty powerhouses that are slow like MMawile and Banded Bulu.
And I know it cant come in on Lele which is why I said "all tapus except for Lele which can't come in" and it deals sufficient damage to pokemon that are pretty relelevant in the current metagame to be a notable threat. Addressing amoongus or tang, amoongus can't check the number of pokemon MVenu can, MVenu carries Sleep Powder, and no one likes coming in on leech seed. Tangrowth can't blanket check nearly as many grasses or Tapus (not even Fini), and Mvenu is not relying on leech seed for its main source of damage. There's also a reason Amoonguss is in UU
 
Speed doesn't need to be mentioned, there are plenty powerhouses that are slow like MMawile and Banded Bulu.
And I know it cant come in on Lele which is why I said "all tapus except for Lele which can't come in" and it deals sufficient damage to pokemon that are pretty relelevant in the current metagame to be a notable threat. Addressing amoongus or tang, amoongus can't check the number of pokemon MVenu can, MVenu carries Sleep Powder, and no one likes coming in on leech seed. Tangrowth can't blanket check nearly as many grasses or Tapus (not even Fini), and Mvenu is not relying on leech seed for its main source of damage. There's also a reason Amoonguss is in UU
I said its speed and low damage. It doesn't mater if MM is slow since it has sucker punch, it doesn't matter if tapu bulu is slow cause top threats don't want to get hit by choice band stone edge. Which also makes it a more useful grass type, not only by taking out tornadus, but steel types as well. Which Mega veno can only chip away at. While bulu runs super power. Tangrowth permanently damages teams from knock off. Mega veno doesn't permanently cripple teams, leech seed does like no damage. While other grass types permanently damage teams. And at the higher ranks around 2300s-2400s no one runs sleep powder on mega veno. Its a bad move to use. And I've never seen Mega veno not use leech seed. So ya it uses that move more then any other move. And it doesn't matter if amoonguss is UU, spore is way more useful then sleep powder.
 
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It doesn't mater if MM is slow since it has sucker punch
Which requires prediction
it doesn't matter if tapu bulu is slow cause top threats don't want to get hit by choice band stone edge
yeah, not unless top threats take it out first
While bulu runs super power
dude, all relevant steel types excluding ferro have a secondary type to negate their fighting weakness, and bulu can't do diddly squat to skar
Tangrowth permanently damages teams from knock off
kinda untrue, you have z-moves and megas to absorb hits like that
Mega veno doesn't permanently cripple teams, leech seed does like no damage. While other grass types permanently damage teams.
I'm confused by this on. Mega venu doesn't rely on Leech Seed on it's main source of damage, it uses Sludge Bomb and fishes for poison. it often does cripple teams, losing a tapu can be detrimental to a team gameplay, and it can chip switch-ins and annoy them with poisons.
And at the higher ranks around 2300s-2400s
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dude the top player is only at 2075 what are you even saying
doesn't matter if amoonguss is in UU
whaaaaa
so it doesn't matter if tauros is in PUBL, it's perfectly viable in OU . are you disregarding tiers now lol
 
Before Mega Venu gets blacklisted, I have a few things to say.

Which requires prediction
It also forces your opponent to play around Sucker Punch. Sure, it's not ideal, but it's less of a problem than you think.

dude, all relevant steel types excluding ferro have a secondary type to negate their fighting weakness, and bulu can't do diddly squat to skar
Heatran.

kinda untrue, you have z-moves and megas to absorb hits like that
This is a good point.

whaaaaa
so it doesn't matter if tauros is in PUBL, it's perfectly viable in OU . are you disregarding tiers now lol
Tiers only say how much a mon is used. It says nothing direct about how good a mon is. Reuniclus is amazing in OU despite being RUBL. Meanwhile, Jolteon is complete ass in RU despite being tiered there.
 
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