Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

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Some noms

:Kommo-O: B- to B+ or A-

At first I thought this thing was bad. Then I found out about Clanger. It’s the best thing HO has had since Zygarde imo, it’s very hard to stop once it’s nabbed a boost. I prefer Mob Barley’s set (4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe) since it smacks hard things with Z and then Clanging Scales after. Sub Belly Drum is very dangerous albeit unreliable, and SpDef is also seeing some use. It’s recently become a popular pick for a variety of archetypes and has proven itself on the ladder and in tours. Underrated.

:Manaphy: B to B+ or A-

Too consistently strong to be down here. It’s become a staple of rain and is appearing on non-rain builds as well. Balance’s prevalence is fantastic for it. +3 Z Surf in the rain kills everything.

:Hawlucha: B to B+

Not much has changed for Lucha but it’s underrated to begin with. Without a healthy Koko or Clef, a Zapdos, or strong priority, this thing wins games reliably. Many teams are not adequately prepared to stop it. The fact that it outruns Swift Swim abusers as well as Excadrill under sand is major. The unpredictable aspect of its last move slot (Roost, Poison Jab, Stone Edge, Drain Punch, etc) makes dealing with it even harder. Definitely underrated.

:Skarmory: C+ to B-

Not too sold on this tbh but it’s been seeing more use on ladder and in tours on fat teams since it’s so damn bulky. It’s a capable spiker as well. Deserves to rise because of the increased attention it’s receiving, and by extension becoming more meta-relevant.
 
Noms I Agree/Disagree with

Skarm-->B- or higher: Agreed

Skarmory really shouldn't be ranked on C+, fattier builds have been on the rise, and Skarm is an absolute staple on Stall and Semi-Stall. Also hazard stacking is pretty good rn and Skarm can get spikes up vs. a lot of things. Besides that, Skarmory has crazy good defense and can check this tier's most fearsome physical breakers, such as Z-Kartana, Banded Bulu, and Garchomp.

Sun-->C: Agreed


If TR is ranked, then I don't see any reasons for sun not to be on the rankings, I've played with this archetype only a few times, against some very unexperienced players, so I don't have much to say, but the arguments used on the last few posts of this thread seemed pretty legit, and the games i've seen of people using Sun prove to me that it is somewhat viable in OU.

Sableye-M-->A-: Agreed

Sab is such a good mon on defensive builds, preventing hazards and being extremely hard to kill, Mega-Sableye has proven to be the best mega in Stall, which has been on the rise since the start of OLT.
Sableye's recent rise to OU shows how good it is right now, with the popularity of Mega-Latias and hazard-stacking, definetely A- material.

Kommo-o-->Higher: Agreed

Kommo-o offers a nice Ash-Greninja and Heatran check for offensive teams, while also not letting go of the offensive pressure, with both of its offensive sets: Z-Clang and Belly Drum, one abuses the most broken Z-Move in USUM OU, which gives Kommo-o great sweeping/breaking potential, and the other makes Kommo-o reach stupid high attacking stats with Belly Drum.
There's also the SPDef set, which is used on more balanced builds, and can provide rocks(Z can too), aswell as an Ash-Greninja, Zard-Y, Heatran, and Blacephalon check.
Being able to defensively check all these different mons while also fitting in offense is incredible, considering how many offensive teams have to sack mons to these powerful offensive threats. All that and it can also set rocks. I'd say B+ is a good ranking for Kommo-o.

Ash-Greninja-->A+: Agreed

I don't have much to say here, it's just that teams nowadays are over-preparing for Ash-Gren, how can you expect AGren to break those defensive teams when Toxapex and Ferrothorn are being spammed everywhere? Or how can it shred offense like it used to when there are so many Seismitoads and Kommo-os running around? The metagame simply isn't in a good spot for Ash-Greninja rn.

Hawlucha-->B+: Disagree

Lucha is a pretty solid late-game cleaner, but I really don't see why would it rise, Mega- Latias and Clef are both very popular at this moment, and Hawlucha simply isn't as good as the other B+ mons, it is very frail, has mediocre attack stats, and is dead weight during the entire game but the end of it, unless your opponent's Lucha check is healthy during the endgame, that is, then your Lucha will just be deadweight until the end of the match.

I did have more elaborated comments on these noms right here, but I ended up losing my text about them, and i'm not going to rewrite those, so please don't mind the low quality of the noms here.

Seismitoad-->Higher: Agreed

Toad offers crazy role compression to offense, being a water and eletric immunity and setting rocks, Toad has also seen good tournament usage in both OLT and SSD.

Zard Y--> B-: Slightly Disagree

Latias and Toxapex are very popular rn, and that's extremely bad for Zard, I would support this nom a few months ago, but not now. I do think Charizard-Y is stronger than C+ tho, so it kinda is on this limbo between C+ and B- for me.

Mantine-->UR: Disagree

Like Seismitoad, Mantine has great role compression, as a water immunity, ground immunity, and Defogger, Tine also has crazy high Spdef, and is one of the best Volcarona checks out there. It faces a lot of competition from Fini tho, so it should remain at C-.
 
Alright as it's the end of the generation, why not post one last thing and leave with a bang until SWSH arrives fully.

:Gliscor: A -> A+
Completely blanks too many good Pokemon with its specially defensive set. Brings a ton of unique traits with it. Has a wide spectrum of sets to fall back on with plenty of room for individual changes, completely negates most sets of 3 S rank Pokemon, making it an amazing anti-meta/meta pick.

:Manaphy: B -> B+
I made an entire post about Manaphy, but to sum it up shortly, Manaphy has done too much for rain to not get rewarded with a rise.

:Slowbro: B -> B-
There are plenty of bulky Water types to draw from in OU and although Slowbro has a very nieche defensive typing and Regenerator, it's really hard to fit on a team and even then, it does its job and not more. It really is not bad, just not as good as other B rank Pokemon.

:Victini: B -> B+
Victini has a wide array of sets, both physical and special, as well as bulky AV sets. It blossoms in sun. Its coverage is difficult to handle for most teams and the blanks of its physical and special sets don't necessarily overlap, forcing a scout. Too good to not rise, it does have its outs though and that needs to be stated.

:Charizard-Mega-Y: B- -> B
Mega Charizard-Y is an amazingly good addition to sand, forming an extremely potent dual-weather core while being a tremendously hard hitting breaker. Coverage is near impeccable. Has good defensive utility despite of a big Stealth Rock weakness. Not very easy to fit, yes, but hugely amazing nontheless.

:Kommo-O: B- -> A-
Why such a big raise? Kommo-O is so amazing in my eyes because it is to some extend interchangable with Garchomp, an A+ rank Pokemon and for good reason. Kommonium Z is an amazing offensive Stealth Rock set that provides better speed control than Rockium Z Garchomp, while providing different coverage, not better, but different and not to underestimate. Specially defensive Kommo-O may seem a bit weird at first glance, but its ability in addition to its typing make it a very good specially defensive wall depending on the matchup. Not the main set, but not to sleep on. It is however, way less flexible than Garchomp.

:Bronzong: C- -> UR
Bronzong's only nieche in OU is Trick Room and even there it is simply outclassed by Uxie. If Bronzong is on the VR, then Golisopod should be here too, just to put this into perspective.
 

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:Slowbro: B -> B-
There are plenty of bulky Water types to draw from in OU and although Slowbro has a very nieche defensive typing and Regenerator, it's really hard to fit on a team and even then, it does its job and not more. It really is not bad, just not as good as other B rank Pokemon.
:Bronzong: C- -> UR
Bronzong's only nieche in OU is Trick Room and even there it is simply outclassed by Uxie. If Bronzong is on the VR, then Golisopod should be here too, just to put this into perspective.
While I agree with most of your post, I disagree with these two points. On Slowbro, it has a very distinct niche over Toxapex and Tapu Fini. Unlike Toxapex, Slowbro provides a Ground neutrality and a decent offensive presence, allowing it handle a number of otherwise dangerous threats that use Toxapex as setup fodder. A great example of these is Gliscor and Mega Charizard X. Gliscor fears an Ice Beam from Slowbro, but will happily setup on Pex even with Haze. Charizard is similar in that it can carry Earthquake, rendering Haze useless while it fears TWave/Toxic. While Slowbro cannot Defog, it has the ability to scout Heatran and Ash-Greninja. It also isn’t nearly as prone to getting worn down over the match like Fini is. See my post above as to why I actually Slowbro to rise.

Onto Bronzong, a Pokemon I feel you have completely looked over. You claim that it is simply a TR mon outclassed by Uxie, which is not its niche at all. Bronzong is an extremely efficient Stealth Rock setter by virtue of its bulk, typing and Levitate, which lets it wall several dangerous wallbreakers. Examples include Garchomp, Z-Landorus, Gliscor, Mega Latios, Mega Latias without Substitute, Tapu Lele and Magearna. Lastly, it can lure Heatran and Magnezone with Earthquake, letting a teammate like Mega Scizor be far more threatening. To conclude, Slowbro should rise and Bronzong shouldn’t be unranked.
 
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B to A- / A
Victini is undoubtedly the best wallbreaker in OU, the reason I think it should go up, is for the simple reason that CB V-Create destroys the entire metagame, apart from that now Charizard-Mega Y had a rise in use , this mon is used a lot with him, obviously he has counters, but definitely an excellent pokemon, V-Create Choice Band and the rise in use of Zard-Y, are the reasons why I consider that Victini should go up, minimum to A- , A rank would be your best classification and as an extra fact, not even Quagsire endures V-Create very well under the sun.
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire in Sun: 220-259 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

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B- to B+ / A-
Zard-Y as I said before, its use rose a lot, is that yes, this mon destroys Fini with Solar Beam and now makes a not good, fantastic core with Victini, this makes Zard Y now a mon to take into account in teams with Victini, so now stall is no longer entirely viable, Zard Y is a good wallbreaker, I would say that the best special wallbreaker, without a doubt B-rank is very small, even B + minimum, A- would be the best classification for Zard -And, Focus Blast + SBeam + Fire Blast + Sun, makes it difficult to count, so it should go up.

Sun
UR to C: Agree
The Suns are really very good, I agree that they are classified, for the simple fact that Venusaur is a good wallbreaker and Torkoal bulky rapid spinner, this makes these two mons are excellent, because the sun has now improved for the simple reason of that now Toxapex and Fini rose slightly, Venusaur stops them very well and Torkoal does not occupy megaslot, so for me they should be classified, up to C.
Hope you like.
 
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Since the generation is gonna end in less than a month so I might as well bring up a stream of my own nominations. But first I’ll address some ongoing nominations.

Gliscor A > A+: Agree

Gliscor has proven to be versatile due to its ability to fit as a rocker/defogger/and wincon allowing it to fit on different styles. This mon has made a huge impact in the metagame in the months players have recognized how crazy good it is rn. Shed Stall has popped out more for non-Knock SD variants of Gliscor, the increase of Bro and Mega Bro on Balance to OHKO all variants with Ice Beam, Offensive Rotom has seen an increase in popularity due to the influx of SpD Gliscor eating usual Wash’s Hydro Pumps and PP stalling them with Roost, and offensive rockers becoming more common in the current meta speaks about the impact it has had in the metagame and its ranking should reflect that.

Manaphy B > B+: Agree

Congrats to Manaphy for making it to OU status before the generation ends. I don’t think there will be a generation where Manaphy isn’t a huge threat to fat teams, its traits are nearly perfect for a wallbreaker. Good overall bulk, a broken move, fantastic coverage, and a good defensive typing. Lando being everywhere as usual, Gliscor rising ever so slightly, and its role in shaping rain to be a serious threat in the metagame. What else is there to say about Manaphy?

Ash-Greninja S > A+: Disagree

Ash-Gren defines offensive teams and still does with an increase of popular threats Greninja loves to exploit like Mega-Lati, Bro, Gliscor, and Victini. Ash Gren isn’t S tier cause of its wallbreaking potential, its good cause it puts offensive pressure on different archetypes cause of how good spikes are on something like Ash. Ferro, AV Mage, Tang, Amoonguss, Gastro, Fini, Hydra, Pex, SpD Kommo, and Seismitoed are good stops to it, but unless your Fini. Gren is just gonna lay spikes and switch out. It helps that all but three of Greninja’s counters/checks are easily worn down by spikes due to the lack of a reliable recovery and Ash scares off many common defoggers. In the case of Pex and Gastro, Gren only really needs to worry about being poisoned or EQ by Gastro so even if they switch, they can’t stop Greninja from laying spikes in their faces. Its ability to fight off its counters whatever it’s through raw power or crippling them with spikes is still S rank material.

Bronzong C- > UR: Highly Disagree

Zong offers a rocker with the benefit of being able to come in on top threats like non-Knock Torn, SD Lando, Chomp, Gliscor, and the Mega-Latis is enough utility to warrant a spot on the vr, but due to the competition in the tier it remains niche.

Skarmory C+ > B- or Higher: Agree

Once thought of as an inferior Celesteela now has made a resurgence in the last few months of USUM OU. Spikes, switch in to Lando, Bulu, Gliscor, Kart, HP Fireless Mega-Latias, and Chomp is huge rn for Balance teams. It offers utility in setting hazards, removing hazards, and talking out dangerous sweepers with Counter. It also has reliable recovery unlike Celesteela. B- or even B tier sounds fitting.

Now for some noms from myself.

Latias C- > UR

Healing Wish + ground immunity isn’t enough to warrant it as a viable scarfer. Its damage is piss poor, it doesn’t really revenge anything notable other than ZardX, Mega-Cham, and Lopunny (and a few others I might’ve missed). Your better off with its Mega, or if you don’t want to use up a mega slot on it and still want a scarfer, use Scarf Tini. It’s damage output is actually really good and provides utility in U-Turn, Trick, and even Final Gambit to surprise Tran. No real good reason to use it rn.

Zygarde 10% C- > UR

How did it even manage to get ranked on here. I get the speed tier, but its outclassed by Lando and Chomp in most scenarios and being locked into Outrage is the worst in a meta where fairies like Clefable are on the rise.

Azumarill C > C+

While not as dominant as Manaphy and Pert on rain teams, its near impossible to stop a sweep from Azumarill once it gets BD off. Once Bulu and Rotom are gone, Azumarill is free to OHKO nearly everything in its path. Some bulkier teams switching to Bro and a rise of SpD Kommo and Mega-Lati helps its case and due to its great typing it can find many opportunities to set-up. It’s definitely alot better than Muk and Krook on the vr.

Keldeo C+ > C-

Keldeo went from a top tier last two gens to garbage and it hasn’t gotten any better for our brony friend. It can’t even function as a wallbreaker anymore. Nowadays, teams almost always have a good answer to it. Pex, Fini, Bulu, Koko, Torn, Bro, Amoonguss, Gastrodon, Latias, the list goes on. It also has not seen any success in tournaments lately and has trouble redeeming itself over Manaphy and Ash Gren. Its just low ladder bait.

Hydreigon B > B+

Its a decent defogger, and a great wallbreaker, but its defensive utility has become more apparent with how well it can provide teams with a ground immunity and a Fire resist. Its an underrated check to Heatran, Bulu, Manaphy, Victini, and Ash-Gren, two of which have rose in popularity. Switch ins like Fini do not appreciate being constantly worn down by Flash Cannons or Earth Powers. Clefable, Magearna, Lele, and other fairies hate being caught by its coverage.

Tapu Koko A > A+

Koko’s unpredictability and mainstay role on HO and rain can’t be represented by being in A tier. It has so many sets to chose. Specs, Shuca, Defog Pivot, Z-Wild Charge, Screens, and even Scarf have popped up throughout the end of USUM. An entire playstyle (screens) becoming viable is all thanks to Koko. Checking Greninja, ZardY, and Zapdos is incredibly reliable. It fills in too many gaps to be A on the vr.
 
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Since the generation is gonna end in less than a month so I might as well bring up a stream of my own nominations. But first I’ll address some ongoing nominations.

Gliscor A > A+: Agree

Gliscor has proven to be versatile due to its ability to fit as a rocker/defogger/and wincon allowing it to fit on different styles. This mon has made a huge impact in the metagame in the months players have recognized how crazy good it is rn. Shed Stall has popped out more for non-Knock SD variants of Gliscor, the increase of Bro and Mega Bro on Balance to OHKO all variants with Ice Beam, Offensive Rotom has seen an increase in popularity due to the influx of SpD Gliscor eating usual Wash’s Hydro Pumps and PP stalling them with Roost, and offensive rockers becoming more common in the current meta speaks about the impact it has had in the metagame and its ranking should reflect that.

Manaphy B > B+: Agree

Congrats to Manaphy for making it to OU status before the generation ends. I don’t think there will be a generation where Manaphy isn’t a huge threat to fat teams, its traits are nearly perfect for a wallbreaker. Good overall bulk, a broken move, fantastic coverage, and a good defensive typing. Lando being everywhere as usual, Gliscor rising ever so slightly, and its role in shaping rain to be a serious threat in the metagame. What else is there to say about Manaphy?

Ash-Greninja S > A+: Disagree

Ash-Gren defines offensive teams and still does with an increase of popular threats Greninja loves to exploit like Mega-Lati, Bro, Gliscor, and Victini. Ash Gren isn’t S tier cause of its wallbreaking potential, its good cause it puts offensive pressure on different archetypes cause of how good spikes are on something like Ash. Ferro, AV Mage, Tang, Amoonguss, Gastro, Fini, Hydra, Pex, SpD Kommo, and Seismitoed are good stops to it, but unless your Fini. Gren is just gonna lay spikes and switch out. It helps that all but three of Greninja’s counters/checks are easily worn down by spikes due to the lack of a reliable recovery and Ash scares off many common defoggers. In the case of Pex and Gastro, Gren only really needs to worry about being poisoned or EQ by Gastro so even if they switch, they can’t stop Greninja from laying spikes in their faces. Its ability to fight off its counters whatever it’s through raw power or crippling them with spikes is still S rank material to

Bronzong C- > UR: Highly Disagree

Zong offers a rocker with the benefit of being able to come in on top threats like non-Knock Torn, SD Lando, Chomp, Gliscor, and the Mega-Latis is enough utility to warrant a spot on the vr, but due to the competition in the tier it remains niche.

Skarmory C+ > B- or Higher: Agree

Once thought of as an inferior Celesteela now has made a resurgence in the last few months of USUM OU. Spikes, switch in to Lando, Bulu, Gliscor, Kart, HP Fireless Mega-Latias, and Chomp is huge rn for Balance teams. It offers utility in setting hazards, removing hazards, and talking out dangerous sweepers with Counter. It also has reliable recovery unlike Celesteela. B- or even B tier sounds fitting.

Now for some noms from myself.

Latias C- > UR

Healing Wish + ground immunity isn’t enough to warrant it as a viable scarfer. Its damage is piss poor, it doesn’t really revenge anything notable other than ZardX, Mega-Cham, and Lopunny (and a few others I might’ve missed). Your better off with its Mega, or if you don’t want to use up a mega slot on it and still want a scarfer, use Scarf Tini. It’s damage output is actually really good and provides utility in U-Turn, Trick, and even Final Gambit to surprise Tran. No real good reason to use it rn.

Zygarde 10% C- > UR

How did it even manage to get ranked on here. I get the speed tier, but its outclassed by Lando and Chomp in most scenarios and being locked into Outrage is the worst in a meta where fairies like Clefable are on the rise.

Azumarill C > C+

While not as dominant as Manaphy and Pert on rain teams, its near impossible to stop a sweep from Azumarill once it gets BD off. Once Bulu and Rotom are gone, Azumarill is free to OHKO nearly everything in its path. Some bulkier teams switching to Bro and a rise of SpD Kommo and Mega-Lati helps its case and due to its great typing it can find many opportunities to set-up. It’s definitely alot better than Muk and Krook on the vr.

Keldeo C+ > C-

Keldeo went from a top tier last two gens to garbage and it hasn’t gotten any better for our brony friend. It can’t even function as a wallbreaker anymore. Nowadays, teams almost always have a good answer to it. Pex, Fini, Bulu, Koko, Torn, Bro, Amoonguss, Gastrodon, Latias, the list goes on. It also has not seen any success in tournaments lately and has trouble redeeming itself over Manaphy and Ash Gren. Its just low ladder bait.

Hydreigon B > B+

Its a decent defogger, and a great wallbreaker, but its defensive utility has become more apparent with how well it can provide teams with a ground immunity and a Fire resist. Its an underrated check to Heatran, Bulu, Manaphy, Victini, and Ash-Gren, two of which have rose in popularity. Switch ins like Fini do not appreciate being constantly worn down by Flash Cannons or Earth Powers. Clefable, Magearna, Lele, and other fairies hate being caught by its coverage.

Tapu Koko A > A+

Koko’s unpredictability and mainstay role on HO and rain can’t be represented by being in A tier. It has so many sets to chose. Specs, Shuca, Defog Pivot, Z-Wild Charge, Screens, and even Scarf have popped up throughout the end of USUM. An entire playstyle (screens) becoming viable is all thanks to Koko. Checking Greninja, ZardY, and Zapdos is incredibly reliable. It fills in too many gaps to be A on the vr.
Someone who notices Bulky Defog Hydreigon deserves the real MVP.

To add on to potential noms that I already didn't do I'll go over them now.

Torkoal UR to C

Torkoal is the heart of a sun team's ability to function correctly overall as it provides it Rapid Spin, amazing physical bulk, and a ton of helpful utility and coverage moves. Torkoal can even make a mean specs eruption set for TR, but thats the cute stuff.

Shedninja UR to C+

Although I alluded to it earlier I do think this has been long overdue as a official nomination. During the time of OLT it was a staple during each cycle with its ability to just shut down a ton of threatening sweepers such as Magearna, some Kartana, Gliscor, Medicham, Lopunny, and Tapu Lele.

Victini B to A-

This pokemon is way too versatile and powerful to even be in B in the first place, but here is the situation now. The amount of legit Victini sets are endless, z celebrate and banded being the main 2, but there are other sets like fire z, ebelt, scarf, OTR, ___, and av that are also excellent options (___ so good I don't want to reveal).

Hydreigon B to B+/A-

Hydreigon right now is extremely good overall because of the amount of potential viable sets it can honestly run. It has a bevy of potential z move sets ranging from the super easy to click dark z to the solid lure set in z flash cannon. Hydreigon can also run metronome to break down annoying walls such as Toxapex and Ferrothorn. Potentially its best set and quality in general about Hydreigon is the defog set that walls both Heatran and Ash Greninja, a highly valuable trait to have in this meta. Unlike Tapu Fini, who barely counts as a real Tran check, has reliable recovery.

Kommo-o B- to A

Kommo-o as of recently is starting to get explored as a pokemon to a great extent. With the traits to check a huge portion of the metagame, is a gigantic threat to sweep and break with sets like z clang, sub-drum, and a barely looked unto banded set. Kommo-o also has a nasty spedef set that walls off Heatran, Ash Gren, and many other annoying pokemon. We are just scratching the surface of what this pokemon can do, keep exploring and you'll see this thing likely in the A+ or even S tier one day.

Gliscor A to A+

If you read over what other people said already you get the picture, but to summarize Gliscor's Swords Dance set is insanely good as it can be a defensive check that can also break teams apart with ease. Gliscor also is extremely versatile in what role it can fill, so with the realization that SD Gliscor is super duper good and its other utility moves bulk etc, I think Gliscor being A+ is reasonable at this point in the meta.

Seismatoad C- to C (maybe C+ but idk)

Seismatoad is doing its thing and comparing it to every pokemon in the C- tier I think its fair to say its ahead of the pack due to its solid bulk, useful ability, great typing, solid utility, and good enough offensive stats to be C ranked, it fits right in with the C rank imo.

Mega Altaria UR to C-

Mega Altaria utility sets are very useful in the meta currently as it checks a huge portion of the Meta game thanks to its bulk and typing. Some pokemon it checks are Ash Greninja, Mega Lopunny, Hawlucha, Kommo-o, Latias, Latios, Hydreigon, Kelde...nvm unmon, Char X, Char Y, Bulu, and with coverage options you can check many more pokemon too. Mega Altaria also has solid coverage options and utility moves to lure and deal with many threats such as EQ, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Heal Bell, and Defog. Even before it mega evolves it has the handy ability natural cure to absorb status.

Anything I missed, questions, need to add, or rebuttals, feel free to share them.
 
Victini - - > B+: Tini is an excellent wallbreaker with some useful defensive utility (provides a 1 time switchin for specs lele for offensive teams, kart locked into anything but knock etc), and has a bunch of viable sets that add a helpful layer of unpredictability. Band is obviously the standout set, with AV providing more defensive utility while still threatening walls, scarf being a threatening set due to fast vcreates as well as final gambit and z celebrate being able to clean pretty nicely (although it has notable issues). In general I think its undervalued in B, and deserves to be B+ (A- is a stretch imo as its not the most splashable thing ever, but its very good at what it does).
Zard Y--> B/B+: Theres been some solid teams made with this thing, it got some prominent usage in OLT and the success it had was never reflected here. It has its problems, with pex and mlatias being hard for it to bypass, but with proper support it can be more devastating than all of B- and definitely deserves to be higher.
Sun - - > Ranked: Honestly with the variety of stuff you can do with sun it's clear to see how it deserves to be called viable. Theres a lot of builds threatened by Venu + fire breakers, theres really not a huge amount of Venu checks for BO and I can speak with experience on how stuff like tini in sun decimates fatter teams. Torkoal isnt a horrendous mon either, being a decent rocker with access to spin (even if its not the best spinner, the role compression is nice). Overall I think tork and venu deserve at least C- for being the faces of a niche but solid archetype.
Aero - - > C-: Still think this is the best HO lead due to its speed and access to taunt making it the best choice for getting rocks + keeping them off at the same time. Will edit in a replay in a bit (dont have time to look for one rn, theres some on my old nom). Edit: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-1000507356 I couldve played better and killed the tran on the switch with it but whatever
Hawlucha --> B+: This thing is on pretty much every HO for a reason, its ability to clean is second to none. In terms of building, this mon is much higher up my priorities than higher ranked mons because of the danger it presents, which is not represented by its current rank.
Serp - - > A-: Another mon I feel is under represented, its both potent offensively and has nice support abilities with glare and defog. Its very easy to cater to your needs, while the subseed set is most popular the taunt synth and scarf sets are also solid options. I dont think theres any team that wants to face a serp, in a bad matchup it can still annoy everything with paralysis.
Ninetales-a - - > UR: This is just a bad screens koko, honestly not seen this for months, its niche died out a very long time ago. Unrank.
Shedinja --> C-: Not much to add, just expressing support for this nom.
 
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Katy

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Ninetales-a - - > UR: This is just a bad screens koko, honestly not seen this for months, its niche died out a very long time ago. Unrank.
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I don't think Ninetales-Alola should be unranked - it still sees Usage at SmogTours SM OU and has a decent win/loss ratio there. It was also seen at some WCOP games where it pulled its Veil off successfully. Sure Tapu Koko is much more dominant und superior as a Dual-Screens Setter but unranking the Niche-Mon with veil, which still sees success in tour-games here and there shouldn't be done imo. I think it should stay at C- because I honestly think as a niche-mon Ninetales-Alola is way better than some other stuff in the C- rankings and is much more potent than Trick Room or stuff like Zygarde 10%, Alakazam, Latias and Mega Manectric. Sure its primetime is over by now, but I think the niche of a Veiler is still good enough to justify a C- ranking. Keep at C-

Other noms I agree with:

Gliscor to A+
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this mon has enough utility and enough good traits to be seen as a A+ mon. Its pretty consistent recently, has found its place on Balance (fat) teams with Mega Latias. Gliscors utility is very helpful for balance as it gives them a good Stealth Rock-Setter with enough longevity throuout the entiore game due to its access to Roost + Poison Heal.

Manaphy 1 subrank higher
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this mon is really good in rain-teams and with z-rain dance + Tail Glow is a very potent breaker - it has also coverage options to go against one of the most annoying switch-ins to it, Toxapex with its option in Psychic. Manaphy is also not that easy to revengekill due to 100 across the board, which is very useful and annoying thus u have to weaken it during the game.

Kommo-o B- to B (I think A oversells it)
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Kommo-o is a pretty good Rocker and one good (semi)-check to one of the most dangerous special attackers in the tier being ash-greninja. I think Kommo-o should go higher as it can also threaten Heatran with its specially-defensive set and with protect it is able to burn out a potential z-move coming aimed at it.
 
S -> A+. Huge Disagree

Reading through the VR thread lately and this nom shocked me. Am I the only one who sees insane amounts of irony in the reasoning behind this nomination? People have to run two hard counters for this cleaner because one isn't enough, and this is why cores like Ferro/Fini, Bulu/Pex are almost necessary to beat Ash Gren. Of course there are other dual cores that can handle Ash Gren but when teambuilding, "how is the Ash Gren matchup?" is very often the talking point of a team's viability. This is a level of prep on par with the big S tier threats like Heatran and Magearna (which you also have to double up on just to stand a chance), not the A+ tier. Ash Greninja would easily be the best pokemon in A+ by a huge margin because it forces prep unlike anything else in that tier, and demands S level respect when building. It just doesn't belong in A+.

And all of this ignores how easy it is to support Ash Gren as a cleaner, because its answers are very lureable and the frog doesn't really need much specific team support outside of standard wallbreakers and a good team composition (which every cleaner needs anyway). I just don't understand this drop, do people really expect a cleaner to have to beat almost the entire tier single-handedly to be S? That's a reason to suspect something, not be a top tier.
 
S -> A+. Huge Disagree

Reading through the VR thread lately and this nom shocked me. Am I the only one who sees insane amounts of irony in the reasoning behind this nomination? People have to run two hard counters for this cleaner because one isn't enough, and this is why cores like Ferro/Fini, Bulu/Pex are almost necessary to beat Ash Gren. Of course there are other dual cores that can handle Ash Gren but when teambuilding, "how is the Ash Gren matchup?" is very often the talking point of a team's viability. This is a level of prep on par with the big S tier threats like Heatran and Magearna (which you also have to double up on just to stand a chance), not the A+ tier. Ash Greninja would easily be the best pokemon in A+ by a huge margin because it forces prep unlike anything else in that tier, and demands S level respect when building. It just doesn't belong in A+.

And all of this ignores how easy it is to support Ash Gren as a cleaner, because its answers are very lureable and the frog doesn't really need much specific team support outside of standard wallbreakers and a good team composition (which every cleaner needs anyway). I just don't understand this drop, do people really expect a cleaner to have to beat almost the entire tier single-handedly to be S? That's a reason to suspect something, not be a top tier.
I’m going to disagree and support a drop to A+ for Ash-Gren. I think it’s long been a overhyped thus over prepared for threat for quite some time.

The reason I think moms like Heatran, Mage, and Lando-T are a tier more useful is that they are offensive threats in their own right that also provide defensive utility and huge versatility in their sets. Lando is the best pivot, scafer, a capable wall and stall breaker, Heatran can stallbreak, Wall things and lay rocks at once and Magearna can be pivot, Wall, sweeper, or trick room support on any literally team.

The only time I find myself double and tripling up Gren checks are in rain builds because the rain powers up Gren immensely. Unevolved Greninja actually sucks and is incredibly easy to Wall pre-evolution and offers literally no defensive utility (prediction spiking?). I often forgo using it because the opportunity cost of unevolved Greninja without rain support is greater than people want to admit (none of the other S mons have such opportunity cost).

As for hard counters - Pex is already on every team. Hydreigon and Kommo-O are seeing increased usage (the former has recovery as well) and the Tapus Bulu and Fini aren’t uncommon. People don’t have to go out of their way to Wall Gren especially in its shit pre-evolved state and the only time I witness people losing their cool over it are due to flinch hax or poor prevention plays.
 
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S -> A+. Huge Disagree

Reading through the VR thread lately and this nom shocked me. Am I the only one who sees insane amounts of irony in the reasoning behind this nomination? People have to run two hard counters for this cleaner because one isn't enough, and this is why cores like Ferro/Fini, Bulu/Pex are almost necessary to beat Ash Gren. Of course there are other dual cores that can handle Ash Gren but when teambuilding, "how is the Ash Gren matchup?" is very often the talking point of a team's viability. This is a level of prep on par with the big S tier threats like Heatran and Magearna (which you also have to double up on just to stand a chance), not the A+ tier. Ash Greninja would easily be the best pokemon in A+ by a huge margin because it forces prep unlike anything else in that tier, and demands S level respect when building. It just doesn't belong in A+.

And all of this ignores how easy it is to support Ash Gren as a cleaner, because its answers are very lureable and the frog doesn't really need much specific team support outside of standard wallbreakers and a good team composition (which every cleaner needs anyway). I just don't understand this drop, do people really expect a cleaner to have to beat almost the entire tier single-handedly to be S? That's a reason to suspect something, not be a top tier.
As you said, every team needs to have more than one way of beating Ash-Greninja, preferrably defensively(with the exception of HO teams that simply can't afford that), and that's exactly why I think A-Gren should drop, in theory it is broken, but in practice there are just so many teams with 2-3 solid Ash-Greninja checks, this mon was just too threatening and now people are overpreparing for it, making it less viable.
The viability of some of its checks are also rising, things such as Kommo-o, Toxapex(this thing seems to always be on the rise), Seismitoad, and Ferrothorn are all pretty popular atm.
So in the end I'd say that Ash-Gren is S tier on the teambuilder, but A+ in practice.

Something i'd like to say too, is that Ash-Greninja is not nearly as unpredictable as the other S Ranks, with the exception of Toxapex, but even that has more moveset variety than A-Gren. all you have to do to know Gren's four moves is to scout to see if it is protean, in the case that it isn't, you only have to worry about is the occasional Ice Beam or Z-Move (i can't remember the last time i saw that tho lol)
 
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last VR changes? OK, big post

Ash Gren S->A+ HUGE disagree. I'd be open to Ash Gren going to S- bc it does admittedly suffer a bit from how overprepped for it the meta is rn but the fact that you have to overprep for it in the first place is indicative of just how effective Ash-Gren can be when paired with pokemon like Tran/Mmaw/Torn/Lele/Koko/etc etc etc that smash its counters. Obvi on its own it gets hard countered by really common stuff like Pex/Ferro/Kommo-o/Fini but its effectiveness comes from how easily it fits onto team compositions that can take advantage of those pokemon. It's not hard to fit ash Greninja on a team with like, Thunder Punch Mega Mawile and Z-Steel Heatran to have a core that naturally preys on Greninja's counters, threatening a Gren sweep. That's not also mentioning the rise in Protean Greninja that makes both Greninja variants better, since pivoting out to a Kommo-o or a Bulu is suddenly risking a hit from Ice Beam or Gunk Shot.

Mega Zam A+ -> A Zam has been up there for way too long, it's still a good pokemon but A+ is too high for it. I honestly don't have much to say about this one, it clearly has its uses but its not the great cleaner it was a few months ago and really pales in comparison to the other stuff in A+.

Mega Mawile A+ -> S OK technically I'd nominate this for S- but that doesn't exist right now so S it is. Mega Mawile does such an effective job at breaking apart balance cores rn that trade raw aggression for bulk and regen. Like the Fini/Ferro or Pex/Latias cores that have been running around. The lack of firepower on these teams makes it fairly easy for Mawile to get to +2 (or get up a sub in some cases) and then shred through the team with whatever combination of moves its decided to run. It does suffer from 4MSS since it can't run Play Rough, Thunder Punch, Fire Fang, Brick Break, Ice Punch, Knock Off, Focus Punch, Swords Dance, Substitute, and Sucker Punch all in one set, leaving it always vulnerable to get walled by something, but the fact that Mawile can have any of these moves puts the opponent in a position where they're relying on intuition and luck to get it right. Maybe they switch in Mega Scizor expecting SD+Play Rough+Knock Off+Thunder Punch to beat Celepex, but they could catch a Fire Fang instead and suddenly they've lost a huge part of their team. Yes Mawile requires team support because it can't break past everything, but the team support its asking for are generally just other good pokemon like Rotom-W/Greninja/Heatran/Koko/Zone/etc, so you end up sacrificing very little to put Mawile on a team.

Greninja A-> A+ Protean Gren has pretty consistently shown over the past few months just how good it is at dismantling balance, and as balance has gotten better recently, so does Protean Greninja. Its wide movepool with access to Z moves (gross) lets it tailor its set to pretty much anything the team needs, which has the added bonus of forcing your opponent to rely on luck and intuition to predict your set before making switch-ins (like I said with Ash-Gren).

Celesteela A -> A- Celesteela imo struggles from being too easy to take advantage of rn. It's a great pokemon for stonewalling certain offensive mons but as is its basically just a free switch-in for mons like Greninja/Magearna/Pex/Heatran/Garchomp/Rotom-W/Latias/Reuniclus/etc, the list goes on but you see my point. Theres so many great pokemon that thrive off of passivity, using Celesteela's single turn of Leech Seed to get off an SD or a TSpike or a Defog or a CM or a SG or Hazards or whatever else its running. There is still merit to Celesteela, esp as a Kartana counter and general gluemon, but its just too easily turned into bait for a bunch of much scarier pokemon.

Gliscor A-> A+ Theres not much I can say here that hasn't already been said but this beast should absolutely be in A+. It offers so much potential role compression as a hazard setter or hazard remover, defensive pivot, sweeper, stallbreaker, toxic absorber, etc with its wide movepool, great typing and good stats; not to mention its great on stall too.

Jirachi B+ -> A- Why is Jirachi so low lmao its such a good gluemon in defensive cores. Both the spdef and scarf sets provide so much defensive utility and role compression, acting as a toxic/psychic absorber, a fast or slow u-turn, a rocker and wish passer for the spdef sets, and a wincon for scarf with iron head. Jirachi's great bulk and defensive typing make it really easy for it to pivot into a lot of attacks in the meta like Protean Greninja's resisted attacks, Pex's scald, Lele's Psychic, Mage's volt switch/fleur cannon/ice beam, Kart's stab attacks, Kyurem-B's ice beam, etc. It's a really solid pokemon to fit onto balance teams as a check to a lot of the pokemon that usually tear balance apart.

Kyurem-B B+-> A- Speaking of pokemon that tear apart balance, it's really hard for balance to switch in to Kyurem-B when it has to predict around the possibility of Ice Beam/Fusion Bolt/HP Fire/Earth Power/Z-Freeze Shock/Substitute. Kyurem can pretty consistently take 1-3 mons off of balance, opening holes for its teammates to come in and win the game later. Again there's not a ton I can say that hasn;t been said already but this mon is criminally low rn and deserves a rise.

Kommo-o B- -> A- We all know Kommo-o is insane, right? Clanger, SpDef, Sub-Salac, DD, plus any other sets its absurd typing and movepool let it concoct make it a great pokemon. It's super versatile & effective and the only reason its as low as it is is bc it took ppl so long to figure out its actually good sets. Kommo-o is so much better than everything in B-, B and B+ and should be way higher.

Azumarill C -> B Azumarill- specifically its perish trap set- is a pokemon I'm surprised hasn't caught on with the advent of passive Pex/Fini/Ferro-centric balance teams. Azu is easily able to switch in on a weak attack or hazard setup, trap them, and Perish Song them to death while they have no real way to pressure Azumarill. Perish song is also super useful on its own for dealing with the setup sweepers used to beat balance like Reuniclus, SG Mage, SD Gliscor, Volcarona, SD MMaw by limiting the number of turns they can stay in to dismantle your team. Belly Drum Azu has also seen an increase in use on rain, which itself merits a rise, but the fact that the primary counters to BD Azu are walls like Bulu/Ferro/Pex that Trapper Azu is trying to take out, means that Trapper Azu has a much easier time doing its job.
Ranking Sun: Defs agree, its a super underexplored archetype this gen but definitely has merit and should be ranked.
Manaphy Rise: Yeah Manaphy is pretty good, I wouldn't put it higher than A- just cuz its pretty much a rain mon exclusively, but its proven that its better than the stuff in B
Alolan Ninetales -> UR: Disagree, I'm not gonna pretend that ninetales is amazing but aurora veil is still efficient enough for offense that I feel like there's merit to keeping Ninetales ranked.
Victini -> B+: Agree, All of Victini's sets are great rn and it should be higher.
Zard Y Rise: Yeah Zard has gotten gradually better lately as its found its way onto cores like the abovementioned sand that have good hazard removal while smacking Pex. Defs deserves to be B or B+
Seismitoad Rise: This mon's recent tour success has shown how good a Gastrodon that trades Recover for Rocks can be. Defs deserves at least C/C+
Keldeo drop: when was the last time Keldeo was widely successful this gen? I do think the horse has a niche but with the increase in Toxapex its increasignly harder to justify running a breaker that can't break the most common wall in the tier. Not to mention that competiton with Ash-Gren, plus the meta's overall overpreparedness for Ash Gren, really make it hard to run Keldeo.
Skarm rise: ibr Skarm has been underrated this entire gen, Celesteela comparisons really fall flat when you consider that Skarm has a pretty different niche in hazard setting/removal. Skarm is great on stall as a defogger/Kartana answer, its a good balance mon with spikes, and its overdue for a rise.
Mega Lop Rise: Agree, Lop offers good speed control for offensively orineted teams and its unresisted stab combo + access to a good variety of coverage moves, fake out, PuP, encore and quick attack give it great offensive utility for beating both offensive and bulky teams.
 

Solaros & Lunaris

You will now face something you will hardly forget
is a Community Contributor
More noms here you go

Not gonna elaborate too much here but I support the following UR noms and the mons that should go to UR

Mons that should be C/C-: :chesnaught: :cloyster: :torkoal: :venusaur: :altaria-mega: :shedinja::glalie-mega:

Mons that should be UR: :zygarde-10%: :latias::manectric-mega: :gengar::alakazam:

Onto others

:charizard-mega-x: to A-

A lot of what ZardX can do has already been covered extensively by users like Zaza, BUT it has niches outside of sun. First off, +1 Flare Blitz is impossible to switch into with or without Sun unless you’re Balloon Tran (lmao). Second, the four best scarfers in the tier (imo) are Kartana, Landorus, Victini and Jirachi. Barring Landorus locked into EQ/Edge, ZardX uses all of these mons as setup fodder, and these mons are the general equipment that balance/bulky offense use to check fast offensive threats. Read Zaza’s post as to why this is also the best sun sweeper.

:gliscor: to A+

You’ve seen this nom 100 times, and there’s a reason why. Shitting on both Pex and Tran, defogging their hazards and using them as fodder is just hilarious. This mon is so threatening we’ve seen drop a move in favor of Gastro Acid to actually manage it, which is crazy to me. It had crazy high usage above Lando during Snake, which says something. It also can beat certain answers if they lack a certain attack, like Celesteela. Really, it only needs Pursuit support to be a great wincon, while being a fantastic wall and offensive threat in one package.

Creation of S-: :greninja-ash: :toxapex: to S-

I actually wanted to bring up S- again after seeing people mention Kart to S and Gren to A+, but it seems I’ve been sniped. Anyway, these two exist in a limbo between S and A+. My thoughts on Ash-Greninja are similar to above posts, it is S rank in the builder and A+ in practice. It still sets Spikes like nothing else, as only two mons can check and Defog on it. Fini has no recovery to speak of (Rest doesn’t even work lol) and Mantine is a bit of an awkward fit on teams. Even so, teams will carry at the very least one Water-resist and a Dark-resist, which will make it hard for Greninja to get it’s way. Meanwhile, Pex has been steadily falling as many teams just don’t want a momentum sponge to Gliscor, Heatran and Mega Medicham. Guss and Bro have both been observed as alternatives (successful ones at that), so I think it dropping is also pretty accurate.

:hydreigon: to B+

Drei is in quite the good spot right now. It’s defensive typing is great for the meta despite Fairy-types, as it lets check it Heatran and Ash-Greninja in tandem with Roost, a Spikes immunity, a Rocks neutrality and Defog. In addition, like Kommo-o, people have really found a lot of set permutations for the mon. It really only needs Dark Pulse+Roost, and maaybe Earth Power to immediately threaten Heatran. The last slot can get to pretty much. Need a Defogger? Grab your Lefties (or your Groundium Z to mess with MegaTar) and go bulky to get some major role compression. Wanna check Mawile and hit Ferrothorn hard? Slap on Fire Blast. Wanna annoy non-MSab fat like a lot? Use Dark Pulse/Earth Power/Taunt/Roost with Metronome to eventually break past all your neutralities (Celepex un particular, can only annoy Chansey though). Very strong mon right now thats only issue is being a bit hard to fit on a team.
 
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I'm gonna do some kinda controversial nominations

Tornadus-Therian: A+ to S

I think it has been brought before but I think this mon is just too good, it pivots into everything, removes items, defogs, it's the most realiable check to Kartana, everyone knows what it does but is just so splashable, it lives a lot and is also very customizable, like it can run Hurricane, Defog, Taunt, Knock, U-Turn, Heat Wave, HP Ice, mentioning this because I think is an underrated characteristic of this mon, like I think the main problem of this mon is that Mawile can be annoying while running this but you can just run Z Fire and boom Mawi, also as good as the Pivot set is, the offensive Z Flying sets are really good as well and can be really threatning, I usually don't like using usage as an argument but currently is the second most used mon in Snake.

Kommo-o: B- to A+

I just think is that good, Offensive sets are really good against most teams, everyone knows how good Clanger sets and how versatile they are, the Defensive sets checks a good amount of pokemon (Gren, Tran, Volc, etc) also a really good set, but I like to mention the DD sets, like people say they are just lures but I also think they are very consistent as well, CC, Ice Punch and EQ/T-Punch (usually with Z Elec/Z Ground) covers a lot of pokemon and the ability to lure Gliscor and Pex is just amazing, I'm not a big fan of Belly Drum sets but they are very deadly if you're not careful, he's easy to put on teams because of how much he covers, I think anything less than A is underselling but I think he deserves A+


Just wanted to point those two but I agree with Gliscor in A+, Sun being Ranked, Manaphy Raising and Ditto Raising and Latias/Manectric/Alolem/Gengar/Nihilego to UR

I'm gonna elaborate on Alolem because people will probably ask

It's just a really bad mon by itself and the only thing that does is trap Heatran and some other steels (Steela and Mag I guess?) but in a tier like SM where you have to cover a lot of mons you can't afford to run a mon with only one niche that is really unrealiable (even w shit like eject button pex) and also doesn't offer any defensive or offensive utility outside of that, basically really unrealiable matchup fish
 
Creation of S-: :greninja-ash: :toxapex: to S-
OK technically I'd nominate this for S-
All in all, Tornadus is incredibly good and is deserving of a S- ranking.
This is actually a pretty interesting idea, I've seen a lot of noms regarding the S ranks recently, and it might be because there are so many mons in A+ that feel better than the other in the same tier, the same can be said about the S rank, I think we can agree that there's a gap between the S rank, Lanorus, Heatran, and Magearna seem to be better than Greninja and Pex, and that both Kartana and Mawile are better than the rest of A+. S- might be a good way to represent the viability of those mons. I'm not sure about Tornadus rising up tho, that thing always seemed very underwhelming for me.

Now for my own nom:

Crawdaunt--> C+

Whenever people say that "x mon literally 6-0s stall dude", I never take it seriously, I mean, yeah there are some mons with good mus vs. stall, but saying they 6-0 it might be a little exaggerated, unless you're referring to Crawdaunt, because that mon literally 6-0s stall dude; switch your Pivot in a mon it will scare out, double/u-turn/volt switch into Crawdaunt, and boom, click Knock Off and see something either die, lose >50% of their health, or get severely crippled by your removal of their items, even Skarmory, one of the physically bulkiest mons of USUM OU, gets beaten by Crawdaunt, Buzzwole has a 72% chance to be 2HKOed by Crabhammer from Daunt after lefties, and Mega Aggron has a 78% chance to drop to the same move if it switches in.

Crawdaunt doesn't only wreck stall, it takes advantadge of Balances too, mainly Calm Mind Latias Balance, Lati cant hit you hard, and you can just drop a Knock Off or Crabhammer(predicting the switch) for free. Crawdaunt can take advantadge of pretty much any passive mon that takes a lot from one of its STABs

Daunt isn't higher for one reason tho: it's frail and slow, making it effective only against weak attackers, slow mons, and resisted moves(Crawdaunt cant even take those sometimes), this weaknesses make it specially weak vs. offense, which is full of strong and fast attackers. Daunt can only Aqua Jet or throw suicide hits vs. those kind of teams, which is less than desireable. So that's why our big bad lobster can't rise to B ranks, but even then, judging as it is such a strong weapon vs. fat builds, I think it should be C+, alongside other strong wallbreakers such as Mega Pinsir and Keldeo.
 
U don’t need 2 hard counters for this mon what
Maybe every team doesn't need hard counters but Ash Greninja puts a insane amount of pressure when team building so you have to account for it every time because of how big of a threat it is. For every team, you must pay attention to the fact that Greninja is always a threat, so I must have something for it both defensively and offensively on any OU team. Some teams may even need multiple ash switch ins and a way to revenge kill it just to get by against it. Those teams will also may not have a insane amount of hazard removal, so for every team you need to either get hazards on gren or defog on it, if your team can't do either of these things its pretty much unviable. Greninja shouldn't go any lower then S- because of how it messes with team building to the extent it does and how effective in battle it is. Ash Greninja should stay in S tier.
 
Maybe every team doesn't need hard counters but Ash Greninja puts a insane amount of pressure when team building so you have to account for it every time because of how big of a threat it is. For every team, you must pay attention to the fact that Greninja is always a threat, so I must have something for it both defensively and offensively on any OU team. Some teams may even need multiple ash switch ins and a way to revenge kill it just to get by against it. Those teams will also may not have a insane amount of hazard removal, so for every team you need to either get hazards on gren or defog on it, if your team can't do either of these things its pretty much unviable. Greninja shouldn't go any lower then S- because of how it messes with team building to the extent it does and how effective in battle it is. Ash Greninja should stay in S tier.
We say it requires multiple checks but I think the counter to that argument is that you don’t have to go out of your way to check Ash-Gren to the same extent as other S mons Pex, Heatran, Mage. Speed control is already a given requirement on most teams to deal with a plethora of fast strong shit, not just Ash-Gren. So that’s the revenge killer built in. The other mon is your Gren “counter.”

Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, Kommo-O, Tapu Fini, Tapu Bulu, Chansey are all useful Pokemon in their own right and common enough in the meta game. Heck, even Tapu Lele on fast teams annoys Greninja. Hydreigon is rising somewhat due to Gren usage but it also checks Heatran and Blacephaleon as well as provides Defog support and is a textbook perfect fit for sun builds.

And again the elephant in the room is everyone just overlooks how poor Ash-Greninja is before it evolves. It is outsped by key mon, weak, and frail and not guaranteed an evolution without team support or stashing him away completely until the late game. This is an opportunity cost and requirement that other S tier mons simply do not have.

I lose more sleep over Kartana tbh. That thing literally requires speed + a switch in + a special attack to beat and your switch can easily fall to the wrong Z crystal.
 
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Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, Kommo-O, Tapu Fini, Tapu Bulu, Chansey are all useful Pokemon in their own right and common enough in the meta game. Heck, even common Tapu Lele is enough for hyper fast teams to thrawt Greninja. Hydreigon is rising somewhat due to Gren usage but it also checks Heatran and Blacephaleon as well as provides Defog support and is a textbook perfect fit for sun builds.

And again the elephant in the room is everyone just overlooks how poor Ash-Greninja is before it evolves. It is outsped by key mon, weak, and frail and not guaranteed an evolution without team support or stashing him away until the late game. This is an opportunity cost that other S tier mons simply do not have.
The main problem I see with "there are so many ash gren checks" is that ash gren can just spike on the switch, which is a huge pain for bulkier teams. Sure, it requires prediction, which is pretty mediocre, but the fact that it's such a big threat to most mons in the tier makes it pretty easy to predict with spikes. The fact that ash gren stays a threat despite being walled is huge, and is definately worth S tier.

Pre evo ash gren is pretty weak, I'll give you that, but with it's stabs being so easily thrown around and it becomes a massive threat IF it evolves. Pre evolve ash gren is still a massive threat, since specs hydro and dark pulse still do a ton of damage after spikes, especially hydro if you're using a rain team.

Which is another thing, rain is still an amazing archetype that abuises ash grens spammable stabs while also giving it amazing team support.

Overall, I still think that it's worth S tier over some other mons like toxapex and heatran, as it's just such a menace to both offensive and defensive teams. IF S- becomes a thing, then I think that ash gren, tran, pex, torn and maybe mega maw and kart should move there, as they're kinda stuck in the limbo between S and A+.
 
We say it requires multiple checks but I think the counter to that argument is that you don’t have to go out of your way to check Ash-Gren to the same extent as other S mons Pex, Heatran, Mage. Speed control is already a given requirement on most teams to deal with a plethora of fast strong shit, not just Ash-Gren. So that’s the revenge killer built in. The other mon is your Gren “counter.”

Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, Kommo-O, Tapu Fini, Tapu Bulu, Chansey are all useful Pokemon in their own right and common enough in the meta game. Heck, even Tapu Lele on fast teams annoys Greninja. Hydreigon is rising somewhat due to Gren usage but it also checks Heatran and Blacephaleon as well as provides Defog support and is a textbook perfect fit for sun builds.

And again the elephant in the room is everyone just overlooks how poor Ash-Greninja is before it evolves. It is outsped by key mon, weak, and frail and not guaranteed an evolution without team support or stashing him away completely until the late game. This is an opportunity cost and requirement that other S tier mons simply do not have.

I lose more sleep over Kartana tbh. That thing literally requires speed + a switch in + a special attack to beat and your switch can easily fall to the wrong Z crystal.
Now I'll admit Greninja base form isn't the strongest, but the amount of pressure it gives is still very much like ash greninja because if the threat it turns into ash form. Base from can still click spike against defensive pivots and use dark pulse and hydro pump against someone who thinks its a smart idea to stay in, so the "Greninja is weak" argument is true but still kinda pointless.

To the other point you made with Kartana, I agree with Kartana being insane to check as sd z giga impact rn is insanely good while you also have to take notice of scarf and banded as usual, but the last point "and a special attack" isn't that hard to find and also Kartana is fast but not insanely fast, this means that it can be revenge killed with ease. Most teams has switch ins and ways to revenge kill it, as Kartana can be one set that destroys you Greninja can click spikes/become ash form and cause some serious annoyance. I would say right now Ash Greninja is slightly better but they're in the same league as as threats overall, so similar to Ash Greninja Kartana should go to S- if created.

Edit: Pomfpomfpluff similar things to me about Ash Greninja and beat me to it so go view what he/she said about Ash Greninja
 
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Pre evo ash gren is pretty weak, I'll give you that, but with it's stabs being so easily thrown around and it becomes a massive threat IF it evolves. Pre evolve ash gren is still a massive threat, since specs hydro and dark pulse still do a ton of damage after spikes, especially hydro if you're using a rain team.

Which is another thing, rain is still an amazing archetype that abuises ash grens spammable stabs while also giving it amazing team support.
Not to keep going back and forth but this is the chief argument for me Of exactly why Gren is not S tier. S tier mons don’t need support and offer sufficient value to carry teams. They’re splashable. Gren benefits from rain more than vice versa. It’s flat out weak pre-evo without rain support. That’s the master point: Heatran, Lando, Mage just don’t need that kind of support. They can fill any role and do it well.
 
Not to keep going back and forth but this is the chief argument for me Of exactly why Gren is not S tier. S tier mons don’t need support and offer sufficient value to carry teams. Their splashable. Gren honestly benefits from rain more than vice versa. It’s flat out weak pre-evo without rain support. That’s the master point: Heatran, Lando, Mage just don’t need that kind of support. They can fill any roll and do it well.
Ash gren doesn't *need* team support to function, as it can support itself with spikes and such and is an absolute menace if rain's up. But it doesn't need rain to be good, it just abuses rain to become even better than it already is. I wouldn't call it "flat out weak" before it evolves, since dark and water are both extremely spammable stabs and it also has spikes for added annoyance.

The reason for why ash gren is S rank is not because of it's limitless power, but because of that it can actually threaten all team archetypes with spikes while also remaining a massive offensive threat, which can flat out carry games if played right. Barely any other mons can do this in OU (the only mons I could find was Diggersby, which is trash in OU so meh).
 

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Noms time bois

A+ -> S

I feel like I am one of those people who think Tornadus-T is a Top 5 pokemon in the meta at this point, because this mon just has unbelievable role compression and general utility, it can remove hazards, cripple mons by removing items, pivot and be a special wallbreaker all in one slot, also one of the best Kartana checks in the tier by far with the Rocky Helmet variant, it isn't really effected by SR via its ability and it can really just fit onto any team, it's high usage in Snake speaks to its effectiveness, so I think it's worthy of S.

A -> A+

Everyone is nomming this, and I am no different, destroys defensive cores and dismantles stall with SD, and completely dealing with Tran and Pex by either just defogging their hazards or using them as setup fodder because it is immune to status, it's not only incredibility threatening to teams, but also has a lot of roles that allow it to fit into so many team archtypes, also having one of the highest usage stats in Snake to show for this makes Gliscor a no-brainer A+ rank mon.

Also, my thoughts on Ash Gren



I have to disagree Ash-Gren dropping because it's still one of the most threatening mons in the tier, Spikes is just awesome because that little chip damage can be useful utility for its team, and it just puts so much pressure on a teambuilding perspective because of the fact that not prepping for this mon will put you at a disadvantage, it is centralizing enough to be S rank, the fact that people are prepping for it, as well as the rise of Kommo-o and to an extent Hydreigon speaks for itself. So yeah, don't drop Ash-Greninja.
 
I’m going to disagree and support a drop to A+ for Ash-Gren. I think it’s long been a overhyped thus over prepared for threat for quite some time.

The reason I think moms like Heatran, Mage, and Lando-T are a tier more useful is that they are offensive threats in their own right that also provide defensive utility and huge versatility in their sets. Lando is the best pivot, scafer, a capable wall and stall breaker, Heatran can stallbreak, Wall things and lay rocks at once and Magearna can be pivot, Wall, sweeper, or trick room support on any literally team.

The only time I find myself double and tripling up Gren checks are in rain builds because the rain powers up Gren immensely. Unevolved Greninja actually sucks and is incredibly easy to Wall pre-evolution and offers literally no defensive utility (prediction spiking?). I often forgo using it because the opportunity cost of unevolved Greninja without rain support is greater than people want to admit (none of the other S mons have such opportunity cost).

As for hard counters - Pex is already on every team. Hydreigon and Kommo-O are seeing increased usage (the former has recovery as well) and the Tapus Bulu and Fini aren’t uncommon. People don’t have to go out of their way to Wall Gren especially in its shit pre-evolved state and the only time I witness people losing their cool over it are due to flinch hax or poor prevention plays.
The fact teams overprep for Ash-Greninja is a strong point for its stay in S. Because just because it isn‘t murdering everyone on the ladder doesn‘t mean it wouldn‘t murder on an equal playfield. If we‘re going by those rules Toxapex‘d need to drop as well and that‘s not going to happen.
 
Ash gren doesn't *need* team support to function, as it can support itself with spikes and such and is an absolute menace if rain's up. But it doesn't need rain to be good, it just abuses rain to become even better than it already is. I wouldn't call it "flat out weak" before it evolves, since dark and water are both extremely spammable stabs and it also has spikes for added annoyance.

The reason for why ash gren is S rank is not because of it's limitless power, but because of that it can actually threaten all team archetypes with spikes while also remaining a massive offensive threat, which can flat out carry games if played right. Barely any other mons can do this in OU (the only mons I could find was Diggersby, which is trash in OU so meh).
The other pokemon that is a offensive spiker you were looking for was Mega Galalie, a offensive spiker that can put great pressure on Bulky teams and has the bulk to take a hit and boom to kill a mon, thats a real threat so spikes can go up and you break. This smoothly transitions into my next point being that Mega Galalie should be ranked C-, Not only does this pokemon break a ton of stuff and has good enough bulk to take hits, its a offensive spiker who isn't choiced locked and has the ability to lure and kill a ton of pokemon with Explosion like Ferrothorn, Kyurem, and a bunch of other pokemon. Galalie gets a solid coverage move with Earthquake that takes on would-be switch ins like Toxapex and Heatran. It also gets other moves like Ice Shard for solid priority, HP fire to target Scizor on switch-in, and a powerful STAB move in Return/Frustration for solid wall-breaking damage that doesn't kill Galalie off. In a SD Gliscor meta, wouldn't you like the option to just always force a 50/50 on Gliscor with spikes or just killing it?

Any rebuttals, questions, or anything I missed, feel free to express that along with anything else that comes to mind.
 
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