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I also dispute the claim that Gigantamaxing's workings solve the issue of Dynamax's overall unpredictability. If we went this route, I could totally see a situation similar to Megas in Let's Go arising where people stack multiple Gigantamax-capable Pokemon on their team to throw foes off. Remember, no items need to be sacrificed, and a fair amount of the Gigantamax mons (especially the ones for certain Galar originals) are perfectly fine additions to a team on their own, so it isn't like you'd have to gimp yourself to make this work.
If dynamax goes, so should gigantimax. Predictability does "fix" the issue of the mechanic. It's still 3 turns of a mon possibly setting up. This makes most mons still a huge threat. You still have 5 other mons to support that one gigantimax mon. And just like now, maybe to a lesser extent, you will need specific mons to deal with Gigantimax. Which centralizes the meta...again.
Before I state my piece on why I disagree with this I'd like to just say that I'm not opposed to gigantimax being banned, only it being lumped in with dynamax in regards to a blanket ban. In my opinion the thing that makes gigantimax more balanced than dynamax is the mons themselves that can gigantimax. Out of the the 23 (I think I counted correctly) gigantimax mons, only 5 of them are on the list of viable mons. I know that list is by no means a complete viability rankings list, but making a team of Gengar, Corviknight, Duraludon, Grimmsnarl, and Hatterene simply to try an mix up your opponent is a gimmick at best. Even then Corviknight and Duraludon are much better dynamaxed then they are gigamaxed (especially Corviknight, losing access to +1 speed for a slightly better flying version of Brick Break is massive).
Even then Corviknight, Duraludon, and Hatterene are much better dynamaxed then they are gigamaxed (especially Corviknight, losing access to +1 speed for a slightly better flying version of Brick Break is massive).
I'm not so sure about Hatterene. Confusion may not be much, but it's arguably better than taking away the Psychic Terrain from your other STAB max move.
You also mention "its at the very beginning of the generation" as if that is any valid defense of keeping dynamax. We got rid of shadow tag days ago, and not a single fucking soul complained. Because it is obviously broken and uncompetitive, and keeping it around any longer just hampers any real metagame development.
Not that I entirely disagree with your reasoning, just want to mention we at least have been familiar with the bullshittery that is ST for many generations, and its not hard to acknowledge what's changed mechanically (practically nothing) that seperates it from those past generations, it only makes sense not to include it just like it'd be common sense not to include arceus. We haven't seen dynamax before (and half the time we have had it, it wasn't even implemented properly.), or any real comparisons for that matter which makes coming to early conclusions way too hasty. We don't know how retarded the mechanic is in general when atm we're only seeing 3-5 strong abusers teams are building around it, if more were to be cherry picked out of no where (which in galar OU is hard to find, but in national OU where we add landorus, volcarona, kartana, greninja in the mix than its really obvious the problem is dynamax.) then it would be a much easier decision on what this generation's biggest problem is, the abusers or the mechanic.
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Thats my main problem with coming to a conclusion, cause thats literally all I see, is gyarados, hawlucha, ditto, hydreigon, and excadrill. Those are all I see posted as problems in this thread and the policy review thread, those are the hot topics of dynamax abusers, and they're whats leading to most of the frustration, this pool seems too small for to me to confidently say Galar-OU's issue is the mechanic itself and that Galar-ou can't be a competitive environment with the mechanic. We're also under the assumption the "follow up" abusers would be just as broken, but I can't see it since a) they're not being abused much right now, and b) they probably aren't as extreme as the others.
Personally I've been anti-ban on the mechanic, but i'm starting to hate max-air stream more and more, its just way to difficult to revenge something even if you can stall it out when it gets a free stage of speed 1-3 times, the D-max abusers I'm keeping my eye on are the ones that can abuse max airstream (gyarados, togekiss, hawlucha), cause I believe airstream and max knuckle is going to be the main contributor to setting anything over the edge (thankfully very few things have the option of both to use, hawlucha just has the benefit of unburden as well.)
Also have to consider how many pokemon are *negatively* impacted by removing the mechanic too, just like how we didn't ban speed boost as a whole, we banned blaziken because ninjask and yanmega clearily aren't problematic, but also we verified majority of users of baton pass are broken and banned the move instead of the users.
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I definitely believe G-max is ok though, I can't see somebody justifying why a mechanic only centiskorch, sandaconda, lapras, charizard, and a few others can use is any more overwhelming than megas, hell I'm still trying to see justifactions to use some of them at all over their base dynamax forms.
Before I state my piece on why I disagree with this I'd like to just say that I'm not opposed to gigantimax being banned, only it being lumped in with dynamax in regards to a blanket ban. In my opinion the thing that makes gigantimax more balanced than dynamax is the mons themselves that can gigantimax. Out of the the 23 (I think I counted correctly) gigantimax mons, only 5 of them are on the list of viable mons. I know that list is by no means a complete viability rankings list, but making a team of Gengar, Corviknight, Duraludon, Grimmsnarl, and Hatterene simply to try an mix up your opponent is a gimmick at best. Even then Corviknight, Duraludon, and Hatterene are much better dynamaxed then they are gigamaxed (especially Corviknight, losing access to +1 speed for a slightly better flying version of Brick Break is massive).
Hatterene is absolutely better Gigantamaxed because her Fairy Max Move won't set Misty Terrain, preventing it from conflicting with Psychic Terrain. Either way if we are going to have to ban even one Gigantamax to Ubers (and trust me we WILL have to ban Gigantamax Gengar, at very least, if regular Dynas are banned) then it already defeats the point of trying to salvage the mechanic.
I've taken to using Chandelure to swap in on Galar Darmanitan, provided I know an Earthquake isn't coming. Even better if I know Fire Punch is. Choice Scarf Chandelure is rather speedy so most of the time Darm is either forced to switch or die. Alternatively, if using Calm Mind, switch in once they've locked into Fire Punch and get a free boost.
People like to throw out Darmanitan to deal with Corviknight and while I could just Body Press them, I find getting Chandelure a free boost to start a potential sweep is better.
Hello everyone, I wanted to make a quick post on a pokemon I've been thinking about for a bit; Zamazenta's regular form.
I was testing it out in Ubers (which atm is literally just OU ft the dogs and eternatus) and I came to realize how...terribly regular zamazenta works vs remotely fat OU teams.
To start off, the Non-Crowned form's weakness in comparison to Crowned; it loses its steel typing and Behemoth Bash, leaving it with only CC as a good STAB choice. Its defences are significantly lower (still really good tho). Now, from what I'm seeing, its move pool doesn't seem to help its bulk. It lacks any form of status, it lacks hazards, it lacks recovery, it can't taunt opposing threats. It cant even be a bulky setup mon, save for a work up set which is hit or miss, and agility isnt fixing its problems. It struggled with breaking through pokemon like pex, corviknight, aegis, and corsola-galar was an unstoppable monster for it. It has the coverage for all these pokemon, but without SD (which it doesn't have) or a choice band which is easily pivoted around and scouted, it doesn't do any significant damage. It cant dynamax either, which is just insult to injury, though a +2 speed zamazenta spamming away max knuckle would probably be a bit much (or would it...@hawlucha?).
Now, obviously I am making Zama sound like its the worst thing ever. It can still do a lot to more offensive teams due to its insane speed. As a scarfer it can revenge almost all +1 pokemon, Wild Charging the Gyara's and whatnot, and it has the bulk to take on a good bit of frail offensive mons. It has a wide variety of attacks, and can be unpredictable and run a choice scarf/band set pretty effectively. But overall I think its a bit weak for Ubers and would sit nicely in OU.
I am well aware we are early in the gen and pokemons tiers have barely been considered, but I just wanted to share my thoughts on the pokemon, as I'd love to see it in OU. I'd love to hear what all of you think.
Hello everyone, I wanted to make a quick post on a pokemon I've been thinking about for a bit; Zamazenta's regular form.
I was testing it out in Ubers (which atm is literally just OU ft the dogs and eternatus) and I came to realize how...terribly regular zamazenta works vs remotely fat OU teams.
To start off, the Non-Crowned form's weakness in comparison to Crowned; it loses its steel typing and Behemoth Bash, leaving it with only CC as a good STAB choice. Its defences are significantly lower (still really good tho). Now, from what I'm seeing, its move pool doesn't seem to help its bulk. It lacks any form of status, it lacks hazards, it lacks recovery, it can't taunt opposing threats. It cant even be a bulky setup mon, save for a work up set which is hit or miss, and agility isnt fixing its problems. It struggled with breaking through pokemon like pex, corviknight, aegis, and corsola-galar was an unstoppable monster for it. It has the coverage for all these pokemon, but without SD (which it doesn't have) or a choice band which is easily pivoted around and scouted, it doesn't do any significant damage. It cant dynamax either, which is just insult to injury, though a +2 speed zamazenta spamming away max knuckle would probably be a bit much (or would it...@hawlucha?).
Now, obviously I am making Zama sound like its the worst thing ever. It can still do a lot to more offensive teams due to its insane speed. As a scarfer it can revenge almost all +1 pokemon, Wild Charging the Gyara's and whatnot, and it has the bulk to take on a good bit of frail offensive mons. It has a wide variety of attacks, and can be unpredictable and run a choice scarf/band set pretty effectively. But overall I think its a bit weak for Ubers and would sit nicely in OU.
I am well aware we are early in the gen and pokemons tiers have barely been considered, but I just wanted to share my thoughts on the pokemon, as I'd love to see it in OU. I'd love to hear what all of you think.
We definitely need to give that time before we give it a shot. On paper, maybe, given how 1: it can't Dynamax 2: the meta is run by mons that otherwise would wall/maul it given its typing, but the inherent issue atm is how we don't even know if Dynamax is going to stay or not. I think that'll be the ultimate determining factor: if Dynamax ends up sticking around, I can see it maybe drop, but if it doesn't, definitely not. Dynamax, imo, is currently setting the power threshold. With it gone, it would be way too much for OU, even if it sucks in Ubers. That's a fun idea, though! Not quite sure if it'd be balanced on the other hand. Personally, I think we should wait for the meta to develop more, see what the top threats are, and see how it fares in comparison once everything is more stable.
[The biggest surprise for me is that Togekiss is way way down at 44th in usage (2.63%); in my experience it's up there with Lucha, Gyarados and Excadrill as one of the most threatening Dynamax sweepers. To see it below things like Runerigus, Chandelure and Centiskortch feels off.
I feel a lot of this is probably a combination of "new toy syndrome" (though I guess that dismisses Chandelure, guess that one is due to no Pursuit) and Special Attacking Dynamax users have not really been explored much. Hydreigon, Togekiss, and Gengar are quite potent, but they don't get quite the same snowball effects like Hawlucha and Gyarados do. I'd say that is partly an oversight and an underestimation of what these mons can do with Dynamaxing.
I'm glad you brought up Togekiss though because I think Special Attacking Dynamax mons can really tear through bulkier teams at the moment without a lot of issues. Gengar is really nice because Sludge Wave, under Dynamax, gives +1 SpA and then there's Thunderbolt for Electric coverage with some nice terrain bonus. You briefly talked about Togekiss, but Airstream makes Air Slashing foes a lot easier since almost nothing is faster after a couple Airstreams.
I agree it is unfortunate that Togekiss is sitting below what would otherwise be mediocre Pokemon. Hopefully more people realize other Pokemon that use Dynamax effectively other than Hawlucha and co.
We definitely need to give that time before we give it a shot. On paper, maybe, given how 1: it can't Dynamax 2: the meta is run by mons that otherwise would wall/maul it given its typing, but the inherent issue atm is how we don't even know if Dynamax is going to stay or not. I think that'll be the ultimate determining factor: if Dynamax ends up sticking around, I can see it maybe drop, but if it doesn't, definitely not. Dynamax, imo, is currently setting the power threshold. With it gone, it would be way too much for OU, even if it sucks in Ubers. That's a fun idea, though! Not quite sure if it'd be balanced on the other hand. Personally, I think we should wait for the meta to develop more, see what the top threats are, and see how it fares in comparison once everything is more stable.
I agree, dynamax being the new "power creep" and point of discussion is kind of why I brought it up. I see discussion everywhere of "dynamax needs to be banned" "Oh its so strong", but in the case of a dynamax meta staying, I personally thought bringing Zama down would be awesome. And if Dyna does indeed get banned, at least we'd get some early OU Zamazenta fun before it gets banned along with it. But yeah, as mentioned, bit early to say anything for certain, just wanted to share my findings.
Edit: Real quickly wanted to point out, a lot of Zama's problems I mentioned come from a lot of fat styled teams, which is still gonna be an issue with dynamax gone. Its presence vs opposing offence teams, however, is something we'll have to see to find out.
Something I've been wondering about is what other tiers will do with dynamaxing. For OU, the only thing keeping abusers like lucha and gyarodos in check is ditto for the most part. Without ditto being present, a bad lead at the very beginning of the game can end the game in one fell swoop if the opponent sets up for a sweep with their dynamaxing mon. This too me is an interesting dilemma since OU functions off of ditto's presence; without him, dynamaxing would have no true reliable answers.
That means that only OU and ubers will have dynamaxing(Ubers will still have high ditto usage most likely if dynamxing is allowed) while all the other tiers won't. Unless people think that lower tiers will be able to handle dynamaxed pokemon without ditto, which in all honesty, is kind of ridiculous imo.
Interestingly enough, the only unaware users that can function defensively are quagsire, clefable, and pyukumuku. Clef will be OU almost certainly, which makes me wonder where quagsire and pyukumuku will end up. They might serve as mandatory teamslots in lower tiers to handle dynamaxing, though powerwhip's prevelance leaves me doubtful that they're up to the task.
I was just wondering what other answers people would see forming in other tiers, and maybe that could help OU with finding other answers as well.
Imo, I don't think any tier without ditto can even so much as remotely function with dynamaxing, but that's just me.
I agree, dynamax being the new "power creep" and point of discussion is kind of why I brought it up. I see discussion everywhere of "dynamax needs to be banned" "Oh its so strong", but in the case of a dynamax meta staying, I personally thought bringing Zama down would be awesome. And if Dyna does indeed get banned, at least we'd get some early OU Zamazenta fun before it gets banned along with it. But yeah, as mentioned, bit early to say anything for certain, just wanted to share my findings.
Edit: Real quickly wanted to point out, a lot of Zama's problems I mentioned come from a lot of fat styled teams, which is still gonna be an issue with dynamax gone. Its presence vs opposing offence teams, however, is something we'll have to see to find out.
I don't know about this. Zama is a 130 base attack pokemon with a +1 defense from it's ability. It's physical bulk would be immense, making even G-Corsola look frail by comparison. In these calcs, I replaced conkeldur's hp and defenses with zama's bulk, and I gave him a +1 to his defense to emulate dauntless shield.
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Conkeldurr: 160-190 (41.3 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Conkeldurr: 222-264 (57.3 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Conkeldurr: 97-114 (25 - 29.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Obviously Zama outspeeds all of these threats unless they've boosted their speed, and it Ohko's drill with CC, Ohko's Gara with wild charge, and 2hko's lucha with wild charge or psychic fangs. Not saying Zama is a good uber by any stretch, but 680 base stats and a good ability give it a lot of oomph, especially when combined with its blistering speed tier.
It also would be very odd seeing what should be an uber get dropped down into OU just because dynamax abusers raise OU's power level that much. Here's an example of how it's uber tier at breaking defensive cores with a wild charge, CC, crunch set. I replaced the respective pokemon's stats with what was necessary. Conkeldur's attack was lowered to 130, and I made sure he wasn't burned or had guts activated. Skarmory's bulk was replaced to 98/105 in the calc. Corsola was switched to 60/100/100 bulk with a +1 defense from eviolite and ghost typing.
252 Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 177-211 (58.2 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 196-231 (49 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Crunch vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 125-148 (37.4 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Damn, Galarian Corsola is made of bricks. Would get worn down with toxic spikes though.)
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 437-515 (124.1 - 146.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
While this isn't legendary breaking potential by any means, it is telling of Zama's potential, especially with his speed tier. He can do this while being VERY physically bulky as well. I don't think that should be allowed in OU.
Something I've been wondering about is what other tiers will do with dynamaxing. For OU, the only thing keeping abusers like lucha and gyarodos in check is ditto for the most part. Without ditto being present, a bad lead at the very beginning of the game can end the game in one fell swoop if the opponent sets up for a sweep with their dynamaxing mon. This too me is an interesting dilemma since OU functions off of ditto's presence; without him, dynamaxing would have no true reliable answers.
That means that only OU and ubers will have dynamaxing(Ubers will still have high ditto usage most likely if dynamxing is allowed) while all the other tiers won't. Unless people think that lower tiers will be able to handle dynamaxed pokemon without ditto, which in all honesty, is kind of ridiculous imo.
Interestingly enough, the only unaware users that can function defensively are quagsire, clefable, and pyukumuku. Clef will be OU almost certainly, which makes me wonder where quagsire and pyukumuku will end up. They might serve as mandatory teamslots in lower tiers to handle dynamaxing, though powerwhip's prevelance leaves me doubtful that they're up to the task.
I was just wondering what other answers people would see forming in other tiers, and maybe that could help OU with finding other answers as well.
Imo, I don't think any tier without ditto can even so much as remotely function with dynamaxing, but that's just me.
What is and isn't a "beast" depends on context. Braviary, Sigilyph, Charizard, Swoobat, Xatu, Noctowl, Butterfree, and Delibird all have the potential to deal serious damage while spamming Max Airstream in whatever tier they end up in.
I don't have too much high level experience in the tier currently, but from what I've played... Dynamax is really powerful, but it specifically pushes setup sweepers over the edge. Pretty much every traditional counterplay to setup sweepers (outside of Ditto and Prankster Power Swap) is just gone once Dynamax is active. The massive bulk increase makes revenge killing noticeably more difficult, and three continuous turns of high power attacks is enough to shred through most walls. In addition to being ridiculously powerful, Dynamax moves also have a ton of fantastic secondary effects that let setup-sweepers easily snowball through the team even after the Dynamax has ended. Gyarados is the best at doing this thanks to Moxie, but I feel this issue extends to a lot of other set up sweepers like Nasty Plot Rotom-H, whose dynamax removes the drawback of both of its STABs on top of setting up Electric Terrain and Sunny Day.
Its likely the mechanic will be banned outright, but I'm hoping that complex bans are tested before this happens (specifically setup move and moxie + Dynamax as I believe this to be the crux of the issue currently). I feel that Dynamax does have potential in benefiting a lot of playstyles, like weather teams since they can setup weather without losing momentum by switching into a weather setter or using weather moves.
Has anyone discussed Drampa?
It seems a really good addition for TR what with Berserk and insanely high SpA
It could potentially use a sub set with even amount of HP until it reaches berserk
of course one of the limiting problems is the low amount of TR turns you get, you can't be using half of them to get to 50% and then sweep in 2 turns or so
but seems really cool regardless especially that a lot of the competing dragons have been removed
I'm cutting off the discussion on dropping Pokemon from Ubers to OU for now. Something like that is way too far down the road to even entertain and discourages from talking about the metagame currently in front of us.
I wont delete these posts now, but if you want to discuss it amongst yourselves feel free to PM each other.
Like all of you, I also wanted to try the new generation of sw / sh, and, after reaching first place on the betta ladder and not playing again, yesterday I created an account once again and I was able to reach first place, I know it isn't the best gxe because I was testing things at the beginning and seeing if those could work and how to counteract the mons that abuse dynamax (Gyarados, Hawlucha, Darmanitan, etc.) I made 3 teams with different styles.
First I thought about testing if stall still worked with things like skamory / slowbro / chansey out of the meta, and I realized it can be a very good style if you have the a good build and you play correctly.
After losing 5 battles at 1450, I decided to create a HO, which is still a very dangerous style, but it can work, although it is very risky due things like ditto that in gen 8 using dynamax it doesn't get locked on a move.
Using HO I lost most of the battles I played (like 15), so I decided to build a balance that in my opinion is the best style I've seen in this first week of the tier.
These are the 3 teams I made in case anyone is interested (I'm not very good at evs):
And my opinion about this generation and the dynamax is that I don't think is as broken as they say since dynamax duplicates the HP, you have the chance to revenge kill the Pokémon that uses it,I have seen teams from other players which are very solid so playing and using dynamax require some skill if you want to win.
I’m disappointed there isn’t more hype for Pringles Fish.
Jellicent getting Strength Sap is a big deal because this mon just perpetually shits on any physical attacker lacking Guts (so just Conkeldurr). Scald limits switch in opportunities from even something like Barraskewda or Hawlucha trying to switch in, and protects you from Dynamax. Or just Wisp everything because nothing switches into Jellicent for free. And with Water Absorb + Taunt, you shut down Pex from trying to set up TSpikes.
Water Absorb is huge right now given the rain meta. You come in on Barraskewda who now can’t set rain, and you just sap for three turns do it can’t Crunch.
Ghost type also means you block Max Knuckle, so which blocks the most popular benefit of snowballing. I’ve even had success with Rindo Berry to stall out Gyarados, as you survive the whip and neuter it via sap.
I’ve also had success running some extra speed investment to get the taunt off on Corviknight, preventing the subs, BUs and Defog. And you can afford to do so much with it because it never dies.
Once the Galar Corsola hype comes down (it’s basically Eviolite Dusclops with Rocks and Sap), I think a lot of people will switch to Jelly because it’s such a solid blanket check to so much right now. Even DarmG struggles to break it due to resisting Ice.
I’m disappointed there isn’t more hype for Pringles Fish.
Jellicent getting Strength Sap is a big deal because this mon just perpetually shits on any physical attacker lacking Guts (so just Conkeldurr). Scald limits switch in opportunities from even something like Barraskewda or Hawlucha trying to switch in, and protects you from Dynamax. Or just Wisp everything because nothing switches into Jellicent for free. And with Water Absorb + Taunt, you shut down Pex from trying to set up TSpikes.
Water Absorb is huge right now given the rain meta. You come in on Barraskewda who now can’t set rain, and you just sap for three turns do it can’t Crunch.
Ghost type also means you block Max Knuckle, so which blocks the most popular benefit of snowballing. I’ve even had success with Rindo Berry to stall out Gyarados, as you survive the whip and neuter it via sap.
I’ve also had success running some extra speed investment to get the taunt off on Corviknight, preventing the subs, BUs and Defog. And you can afford to do so much with it because it never dies.
Once the Galar Corsola hype comes down (it’s basically Eviolite Dusclops with Rocks and Sap), I think a lot of people will switch to Jelly because it’s such a solid blanket check to so much right now. Even DarmG struggles to break it due to resisting Ice.
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 163-192 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 104-123 (25.7 - 30.4%) -- 98.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 114-135 (28.2 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I’m disappointed there isn’t more hype for Pringles Fish.
Jellicent getting Strength Sap is a big deal because this mon just perpetually shits on any physical attacker lacking Guts (so just Conkeldurr). Scald limits switch in opportunities from even something like Barraskewda or Hawlucha trying to switch in, and protects you from Dynamax. Or just Wisp everything because nothing switches into Jellicent for free. And with Water Absorb + Taunt, you shut down Pex from trying to set up TSpikes.
Water Absorb is huge right now given the rain meta. You come in on Barraskewda who now can’t set rain, and you just sap for three turns do it can’t Crunch.
Ghost type also means you block Max Knuckle, so which blocks the most popular benefit of snowballing. I’ve even had success with Rindo Berry to stall out Gyarados, as you survive the whip and neuter it via sap.
I’ve also had success running some extra speed investment to get the taunt off on Corviknight, preventing the subs, BUs and Defog. And you can afford to do so much with it because it never dies.
Once the Galar Corsola hype comes down (it’s basically Eviolite Dusclops with Rocks and Sap), I think a lot of people will switch to Jelly because it’s such a solid blanket check to so much right now. Even DarmG struggles to break it due to resisting Ice.
Jellicent major flow is the lack of toxic even tho it got sap , with how threatening Sub Np hydreigon is right now , which destroys defensive meta core and slower bulkier team , I would honestly not dare touching it like I actually do with corsela , boy you better get that taunt on the switch .
I’m disappointed there isn’t more hype for Pringles Fish.
Jellicent getting Strength Sap is a big deal because this mon just perpetually shits on any physical attacker lacking Guts (so just Conkeldurr). Scald limits switch in opportunities from even something like Barraskewda or Hawlucha trying to switch in, and protects you from Dynamax. Or just Wisp everything because nothing switches into Jellicent for free. And with Water Absorb + Taunt, you shut down Pex from trying to set up TSpikes.
Water Absorb is huge right now given the rain meta. You come in on Barraskewda who now can’t set rain, and you just sap for three turns do it can’t Crunch.
Ghost type also means you block Max Knuckle, so which blocks the most popular benefit of snowballing. I’ve even had success with Rindo Berry to stall out Gyarados, as you survive the whip and neuter it via sap.
I’ve also had success running some extra speed investment to get the taunt off on Corviknight, preventing the subs, BUs and Defog. And you can afford to do so much with it because it never dies.
Once the Galar Corsola hype comes down (it’s basically Eviolite Dusclops with Rocks and Sap), I think a lot of people will switch to Jelly because it’s such a solid blanket check to so much right now. Even DarmG struggles to break it due to resisting Ice.
I think the main difference between Jellicent and Corsola comes down to raw bulk and Corsola's acess to stealth rocks. If you use water absorb, then curse body can be added to that list as well, as it comes in clutch quite a bit. Here's a calc from a +1 gyarodos using bounce, assuming 130 BP from dynamaxing.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 363-426 (89.8 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So that's not good. After rocks are set up, the gyarodos doesn't need to predict to Ohko jellicent, and that isn't even adamant gyarados. Compare that calc to Glarian Corsola, assuming 60/100/100 bulk with ghost typing, and a +1 to emulate an eviolite boost.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Bounce vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 195-230 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Crunch(Used 130 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 260-307 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Accidentally left leftovers in there, but it doesn't change the value of the calcs. So it can switch into gyarados DDing without worrying about getting ohkoed if rocks are on the field if it uses bounce, and it has a chance to live even if the gyarados uses an empowered crunch. That's a pretty staggering difference in usable physical bulks. Corsola also gets stealth rocks, and it lacks the weakness to power whip, which is much more common this gen. Another few calcs to show the difference in special bulk, assuming their both physically invested.
252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Jellicent: 242-288 (59.9 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Vs
252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Corsola: 170-204 (52.4 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So Corsola is also more specially bulky, and in this instance, can't die to a crit from dark pulse while jellicent can. Flinching is a definite reality here, and your only hope is that curse body activates before that happens, but that difference can come in clutch some games.
I do agree that jellicent is slept on. It is much better than it's usage likely indicates. At the same time, I think there's a sizeable sentiment that Galarian Corsola is just a fad, but I disagree. I can see the comparisons between dusclops and corsola, but corsola has a few crucial tools that dusclops lacks. Stealth rocks and strength sap make corsola less passive while having access to reliable recovery. It also has curse body compared to dusclop's frisk/pressure. Curse body is a very underrated utility that can ruin someone's day if it activates at the wrong time. For dusclops, those are useless abilities. These traits make Corsola vastly superior.
Personally, I think Corsola will be one of the walls that every team will have to contend with in their team builder, and any team that can't break it, will most likely end up being poor in the upper echelons of play.
I think the main difference between Jellicent and Corsola comes down to raw bulk and Corsola's acess to stealth rocks. If you use water absorb, then curse body can be added to that list as well, as it comes in clutch quite a bit. Here's a calc from a +1 gyarodos using bounce, assuming 130 BP from dynamaxing.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 363-426 (89.8 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So that's not good. After rocks are set up, the gyarodos doesn't need to predict to Ohko jellicent, and that isn't even adamant gyarados. Compare that calc to Glarian Corsola, assuming 60/100/100 bulk with ghost typing, and a +1 to emulate an eviolite boost.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Bounce vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 195-230 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Crunch(Used 130 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 260-307 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Accidentally left leftovers in there, but it doesn't change the value of the calcs. So it can switch into gyarados DDing without worrying about getting ohkoed if rocks are on the field if it uses bounce, and it has a chance to live even if the gyarados uses an empowered crunch. That's a pretty staggering difference in usable physical bulks. Corsola also gets stealth rocks, and it lacks the weakness to power whip, which is much more common this gen. Another few calcs to show the difference in special bulk, assuming their both physically invested.
252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Jellicent: 242-288 (59.9 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Vs
252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Corsola: 170-204 (52.4 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So Corsola is also more specially bulky, and in this instance, can't die to a crit from dark pulse while jellicent can. Flinching is a definite reality here, and your only hope is that curse body activates before that happens, but that difference can come in clutch some games.
I do agree that jellicent is slept on. It is much better than it's usage likely indicates. At the same time, I think there's a sizeable sentiment that Galarian Corsola is just a fad, but I disagree. I can see the comparisons between dusclops and corsola, but corsola has a few crucial tools that dusclops lacks. Stealth rocks and strength sap make corsola less passive while having access to reliable recovery. It also has curse body compared to dusclop's frisk/pressure. Curse body is a very underrated utility that can ruin someone's day if it activates at the wrong time. For dusclops, those are useless abilities. These traits make Corsola vastly superior.
Personally, I think Corsola will be one of the walls that every team will have to contend with in their team builder, and any team that can't break it, will most likely end up being poor in the upper echelons of play.
On top of your argumentation , good or not Corsola somehow learns Haze , and I also believe this guy calc is mostly wrong since banded Darm 2HKo jellicent all day with eq :
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 233-275 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
On top of your argumentation , good or not Corsola somehow learns Haze , and I also believe this guy calc is mostly wrong since banded Darm 2HKo jellicent all day with eq :
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 233-275 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I don’t have too much to add that hasn’t already been said, but I did want to draw some attention to a couple psychic birds since they're not on the preliminary VR.
I think Xatu is great right now since OU desperately lacks good defoggers, and it won’t get much better with Rotoms, Silvallys, and a few others learning it. It’s the only good defensive counterplay to ferropex and fits great on volt-turn teams with things like Darm, Rotom, and Dugtrio and it benefits from pursuit getting the axe. Furthermore, it stands out from other magic bounce users thanks to reliable recovery and decent all-around stats. Tyranitar, Mamoswine, tbolt Duraludon are notable rocks users that beat Xatu but two of them are susceptible to Duggy and there are mindgames to play especially if you can put offensive pressure on the opposing team.
Sigilyph is a cool anti-set up mon that isn’t ditto. With t-wave and 3 attacks it functions like sash zam, though it does lack power especially vs dynamax mons. It has some other options like specs tinted lens and life orb magic guard and it should get defog when pokebank/home comes out.
