National Dex General Information and Simple Questions Thread

[GoldenSandslash15]

I wonder if a possible solution to this is to say "you can use either a Pokémon that you have in a Gen 7 game, or a Pokémon that you have in a Gen 8 game". Thus, it's not a "pet mod" per say, it's just everything that Game Freak designed to do.

For example, you can have a Gengar that is holding a Gengarite. Or you could have a Gengar that knows Nasty Plot and Encore. Both of these are decisions that Game Freak made to allow you to do. But what you CANNOT do is have a Gengar holding a Gengarite that knows Nasty Plot and Encore. That's something that Game Freak never intended to exist, and never meant for you to have, or for it to affect the meta in any way.

What do you think of this proposal?

 

[gvmgvm40]

I wonder if a possible solution to this is to say "you can use either a Pokémon that you have in a Gen 7 game, or a Pokémon that you have in a Gen 8 game". Thus, it's not a "pet mod" per say, it's just everything that Game Freak designed to do.

For example, you can have a Gengar that is holding a Gengarite. Or you could have a Gengar that knows Nasty Plot and Encore. Both of these are decisions that Game Freak made to allow you to do. But what you CANNOT do is have a Gengar holding a Gengarite that knows Nasty Plot and Encore. That's something that Game Freak never intended to exist, and never meant for you to have, or for it to affect the meta in any way.

What do you think of this proposal?

I like this. It's not on the horizon yet, but there will be future Pokemon games, and if the devs don't bow to fan outrage, we may not see the National Dex again. Right now we have Gen 1-7 and Gen 8 with separate "sets" of Pokemon you're allowed to have on cartridge, but this might get more complicated with each new generation.

A more elegant and logically consistent way of phrasing this could be to say that any Pokemon that was legally obtainable at any point in a main series game, would be allowed in NatDex. Off the top of my head this would make alternate forms like Cosplay Pikachu, LGPE Pikachu/Eevee and Spiky-Eared Pichu (lol) available, as well as previous abilities like Levitate Gengar/Flash Fire Entei etc and a few obscure Gen 2 event moves (Rapid Spin Golem, Encore Phanpy, Petal Dance on a bunch of stuff...). Of course, if you wanted to run Rapid Spin Golem or Levitate Gengar, it could only use its Gen 2 and Gen 3-6 moves respectively.

This would make move legality a bit confusing possibly, but it'd be more consistent.

 

[GoldenSandslash15]

I like this. It's not on the horizon yet, but there will be future Pokemon games, and if the devs don't bow to fan outrage, we may not see the National Dex again. Right now we have Gen 1-7 and Gen 8 with separate "sets" of Pokemon you're allowed to have on cartridge, but this might get more complicated with each new generation.

A more elegant and logically consistent way of phrasing this could be to say that any Pokemon that was legally obtainable at any point in a main series game, would be allowed in NatDex. Off the top of my head this would make alternate forms like Cosplay Pikachu, LGPE Pikachu/Eevee and Spiky-Eared Pichu (lol) available, as well as previous abilities like Levitate Gengar/Flash Fire Entei etc and a few obscure Gen 2 event moves (Rapid Spin Golem, Encore Phanpy, Petal Dance on a bunch of stuff...). Of course, if you wanted to run Rapid Spin Golem or Levitate Gengar, it could only use its Gen 2 and Gen 3-6 moves respectively.

This would make move legality a bit confusing possibly, but it'd be more consistent.

It also lets you use the type-enhancing gems from Gen 5. I'm okay with this. (Yay Flying Gem Acrobatics! Just a shame that nothing gets Gale Wings in Gen 5...)

But... let's talk about the REAL problem with your version of this: it allows you to have Pokémon from Gen 1-2 that have maximum EVs on *every* stat. Max EVs on something like Mewtwo (or Gyarados, in the case of OU) is pretty nuts. And the only cost to doing this is requiring a neutral nature and having no ability? Yeah... sign me up. This is quite broken (especially if a Gen 1 Mewtwo would also keep its "Special" stat as both its Special Attack and Special Defense! Yikes!). Because of this... I think I'm gonna recommend that we stick to Gen 7-forward.

Also, small nitpick: Flash Fire Entei does not exist. While it is programmed into the game's data for Gen 5-6, there is no way to legally obtain it.

 

[sumwun]

How exactly does Dexit work? Are the missing Pokemon not programmed into SwSh at all? If they're completely nonexistent in the game code, how do we know that Blastoise (which I'm pretty sure was cut) gets shell smash?

 

[Zrp200]

How exactly does Dexit work? Are the missing Pokemon not programmed into SwSh at all? If they're completely nonexistent in the game code, how do we know that Blastoise (which I'm pretty sure was cut) gets shell smash?

It's available via event.

 

[queso]

How exactly does Dexit work? Are the missing Pokemon not programmed into SwSh at all? If they're completely nonexistent in the game code, how do we know that Blastoise (which I'm pretty sure was cut) gets shell smash?

Some unreleased Pokemon are in the game code like blastoise, which gained shell smash according to the code, while others are just not in the code at all.

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

Alright so Mega Ray being able to Dynamax is a bug I may hope?

Yes, as is Kommo-o Dynamaxing after using Clangorous Soulblaze. On that note, how does the council want Zygarde-C and Dynamax to be handled?

Edit: it actually appears Dynamax + Primal/Mega/Z are all bugged, leading to things like Dynamax or PrimalDon or a Kommo-o Dynamaxing after using Clangorous Soulblaze.

 

[10610786d]

It also lets you use the type-enhancing gems from Gen 5. I'm okay with this. (Yay Flying Gem Acrobatics! Just a shame that nothing gets Gale Wings in Gen 5...)

But... let's talk about the REAL problem with your version of this: it allows you to have Pokémon from Gen 1-2 that have maximum EVs on *every* stat. Max EVs on something like Mewtwo (or Gyarados, in the case of OU) is pretty nuts. And the only cost to doing this is requiring a neutral nature and having no ability? Yeah... sign me up. This is quite broken (especially if a Gen 1 Mewtwo would also keep its "Special" stat as both its Special Attack and Special Defense! Yikes!). Because of this... I think I'm gonna recommend that we stick to Gen 7-forward.

Also, small nitpick: Flash Fire Entei does not exist. While it is programmed into the game's data for Gen 5-6, there is no way to legally obtain it.

Would love the gems to come back, the more possibilities the more fun

Though there's merits to keeping it simple (easier for players, and easier for devs to keep track presumably), and include the latest available "version" of each species of Pokémon from the main line games.

 

[Gustavo Neves]

just i found dynamax broken? and should be banned from OU?

 

[sumwun]

just i found dynamax broken? and should be banned from OU?

It would probably be better to post this in the metagame discussion thread, and add an explanation and some replays explaining why you think it's so broken.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Will we have NatDex for the other tiers?

 

[GoldenSandslash15]

Will we have NatDex for the other tiers?

If there is enough demand for it, yes. If not, no.

 

[VCrakeV]

Will Nat OU ban Dynamax if Galar OU bans it? Otherwise, will Nat OU have a separate suspect test or ban?

 

[Ace 流]

Is there going to be more tiers like uu or nu for example?

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Is Libero being available a bug?

 

[MZ]

Is there going to be more tiers like uu or nu for example?

Possibly if there’s a lot of interest, but we’re not committing to anything yet. I also put this in the FAQ

Is Libero being available a bug?

Yes

 

[VCrakeV]

Possibly if there’s a lot of interest, but we’re not committing to anything yet. I also put this in the FAQ

Yes

Aren't hidden abilities supposed to be released in national dex?

 

[MZ]

Aren't hidden abilities supposed to be released in national dex?

No. National dex transfers things from USUM to swish but the unreleased abilities were never available in USUM. Until gamefreak decides to release water absorb suicune or grassy surge rillaboom, we won’t be doing that.

 

[kittenchilly]

It also lets you use the type-enhancing gems from Gen 5. I'm okay with this. (Yay Flying Gem Acrobatics! Just a shame that nothing gets Gale Wings in Gen 5...)

But... let's talk about the REAL problem with your version of this: it allows you to have Pokémon from Gen 1-2 that have maximum EVs on *every* stat. Max EVs on something like Mewtwo (or Gyarados, in the case of OU) is pretty nuts. And the only cost to doing this is requiring a neutral nature and having no ability? Yeah... sign me up. This is quite broken (especially if a Gen 1 Mewtwo would also keep its "Special" stat as both its Special Attack and Special Defense! Yikes!). Because of this... I think I'm gonna recommend that we stick to Gen 7-forward.

Also, small nitpick: Flash Fire Entei does not exist. While it is programmed into the game's data for Gen 5-6, there is no way to legally obtain it.

I think the best way to go about this is by treating the same pokemon but from different gens as different forms, with different sets and strategies. That way we can ban Mewtwo-1 (first gen mewtwo) from OU if it's too powerful with its uncapped EVs just like you would any other powerful Uber pokemon/form, but keep Mewtwo-2,-3,-4, etc. legal.
Basically this idea would make National Dex the literal combination of all the metas.
Same pokemon from different gens would still file under species clause, all I'm saying is that they're treated as different forms.

 

[Zrp200]

I think the best way to go about this is by treating the same pokemon but from different gens as different forms, with different sets and strategies. That way we can ban Mewtwo-1 (first gen mewtwo) from OU if it's too powerful with its uncapped EVs just like you would any other powerful Uber pokemon/form, but keep Mewtwo-2,-3,-4, etc. legal.
Basically this idea would make National Dex the literal combination of all the metas.
Same pokemon from different gens would still file under species clause, all I'm saying is that they're treated as different forms.

Ehh, that deviates from the intention, and whether or not this is a pet mod is already very debatable, with more evidence saying that this is a pet mod. NatDex is intended to be a meta where GEN 8 removals didn't happen, thus the presence of z-moves, megas, cut moves like Hidden Power and Pursuit, and of course the 52%(?) of the dex that was cut.
I really like this format, and I don't want to start expanding its scope any further than it is now. It's the slippery slope that was talked about so much when the meta was being proposed, and one that I was worried would do it in.
In accordance with that, I argue the offending gems should be banned and we just go on with our days.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Gems would also be pretty outclassed. A one-time 30% power boost is not as good as the 30% from Life Orb or the constant 20% power boost from plates. Plus, it doesn’t even get rid of the drawbacks from moves like Dig or any two-turn moves/low-accuracy/recharge turns.

 

[658Greninja]

Anyone have any thoughts regarding the viability of Gen 8 OU staples like Dragapult, Corviknight, and Dracovish?

 

[Cabneet]

Removing Melmetal was an absolute war crime. Who thought it was so necessary to remove unreleased shit?
W H Y?
Because you are trying to be accurate to cartridge? Wtf? We are already breaking that rule!!! Why would you make this mode and not let us use THE VERY FIRST GEN 8 MON TO BE REVEALED?
It's an OM that by definition is already an impossibility on cartridge. Removing Melmetal (and to a lesser extent things like the HAs on Cinderace and Rillaboom) seriously borders on being petty.

 

[MZ]

Removing Melmetal was an absolute war crime. Who thought it was so necessary to remove unreleased shit?
W H Y?
Because you are trying to be accurate to cartridge? Wtf? We are already breaking that rule!!! Why would you make this mode and not let us use THE VERY FIRST GEN 8 MON TO BE REVEALED?
It's an OM that by definition is already an impossibility on cartridge. Removing Melmetal (and to a lesser extent things like the HAs on Cinderace and Rillaboom) seriously borders on being petty.

Removing Melmetal was an error, I don't know who introduced it, it's hopefully going to be fixed. The HAs though are completely different, addressed higher on the page, and were never intended to be legal by anyone.

 

[Cabneet]

Removing Melmetal was an error, I don't know who introduced it, it's hopefully going to be fixed. The HAs though are completely different, addressed higher on the page, and were never intended to be legal by anyone.

Not really "addressed" so much as one guy saying "we ain't doing it"
I mean I'm happy Melmetal being cut is an error that will be fixed but removing the unreleased HAs is still pretty stupid and pointless.
Why try so hard to be accurate to cartridge when the thing we are concerned about only has a very tiny chance of being inaccurate anyway and, again, we are already breaking the rule of cartridge accuracy?

Also it just occurred to me, couldnt you make the argument that all the moves we can only get through bank are "unreleased"? How do we know those mons will keep those moves? Havent they removed moves in between generations before? So, should we remove Bisharp's knock off and Mew's roost just to *make sure* we are being accurate to future cartridge?

ALSO ALSO I just noticed that randoms get to use unreleased HAs. I just fought a Rillaboom with Grassy surge. Why do they get to break this "rule" but we can't?