Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Usage Stats in post #581]

[Quint_]

I'm going to try and answer some of your questions as good as I possibly can, hope you learn a thing or 2!

1: Galarian Corsola is already stupid bulky, but it also gets light screen and reflect. Why have there been no sets running this? Ik it’s probably because corsola only really has one move slot it can change around, as 3 moves are basically required (Nightshade, Will’O’Wisp, and Strength sap,) so why haven’t people put light screen in the final slot because corsola is already great at destroying physical Pokémon, so a 50% decrease from special moves means that corsola won’t die. Also, if you have a prankster grimmsnarl use light screen and reflect before you send out corsola, you don’t need those moves on corsola.

Corsola-G is an extremely passive mon. If you want to run either of the screens, your opponent most of the time won't have trouble just stalling them out because of the reason you are stalling them out for them. The main benefit of Light Screen and Reflect are to give offensive Pokémon extra bulk so they have an easier time setting up/breaking the opponent's team. While it does sound amazing to have a Corsola-G with Eviolite and Screens up, you're opponent won't feel extra threatened because the way to deal with Corsola-G is just set on hold rather than making Corsola-G the unkillable machine you might think it becomes.

2: Why has no one used galarian corsola against the fish himself? Scarf fish is a 2HKO, so if you use strength sap you will lower the fish’s attack by 33.3%, and heal back all health from fishious rend. Use it again to guarantee living the next hit + make his attack half of normal (142 to 71) and you can wear him down from there with night shade. If it’s banded fish, it’s around a 40% to OHKO, so use strength sap 2-3 times to lower the fish’s attack enough to where you are safe. Ik that water absorb and storm drain Pokémon are way better, but not everyone is going to have a Pokémon with either of those abilities, while corsola is a Pokémon most people have.

It's only an emegency check and only IF Dracovish is Scarf AND you are at high HP. As soon as it Choice Band or Rain boosted you have a chance of being OHKOed. The damage from scarf is too high to switch in. If vish kills a thing and you come in for free, he can just switch out and chip Corsola-G down until it is in range. Also, Corsola-G's is way lower than the usage Water Absorb and Storm Drain Pokémon have right now, so it's just better to keep them as a Dracovish check rather than trying to fit Corsola in as an non-answer
Scarf vish calc:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 171-202 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 255-301 (78.7 - 92.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

3: Because I am new to competitive Pokémon, I would like to know some sets using clefable. I had no idea that clefable is one of the best Pokémon in the game, so some sets would be helpful.

Clefable has been seen running Offensive and Utility sets. For more information I'll refer you to these links:
https://www.smogon.com/dex/ss/pokemon/clefable/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/clefable-qc-0-3.3658607/

4: With all of the talk about flinching with galarian darmanitan using icicle crash, it made me think of para-flinch togekiss. Use thunder wave and a move that flinches, and, if you have serene grace, there is a 85% chance of either paralysis or flinching. Idk if bright powder and lax incense are legal, but, if they are, holding either of those will make it a 86.5% chance of not attacking, and that’s if they use 100% accurate moves. For the EVs of my togekiss, I put 252 HP/252 SPE/4 ATK, so it would be fast and bulky.

The percentage of the opponent not attacking is 70% (60% chance for a flinch + 25% chance for para when he doesn't flinch (40%) -> 60% + 25%*40* = 70%). Togekiss actually is pretty good in the current meta, I would recommend running Heavy Duty Boots or Leftovers so you don't get worn down that easily. Grimmsnarl with Twave can be a good partner to spread the paralysis so Togekiss can come in late game and do his flinch thing. This is of course all luck based and won't work 100% of the time.

5: I haven’t seen anything with toxtricity, so I will talk about a set for him. Get a toxtricity that’s amped form, and teach it overdrive, boom burst, toxic, and veno shock. It’s ability should be punk rock, and have it hold either throat spray or a magnet. EVs should be 252 SPA/252 SPE/4 HP, so that it is as fast as possible and plenty of special attack for sound moves. There are some counters, such as excadrill and seismitoad, galarian darmanitan, the fish, and bulky Pokémon. However, these attacks are ridiculously strong, and the base power of a boom burst off the get go is 210, while overdrive is 270 base power if you have a magnet. Toxtricity isn’t the best Pokémon, but it’s a good gimmick Pokémon if they don’t have anything to deal with it.

Toxtricity is a good pokemon but I would recommend using Life orb Or Choice specs over Magnet. The overall damage boost give Boomburst that extra bit of damage that make the ground switchin really fear it.
I would also not run venoshock and toxic, Toxtricity isn't the fastest pokémon and you're better of with using Shift Gear as setup move or 2 other attacks. Some attacks you can run on it are Snarl, Volt Switch, Sludge Wave or Fire punch (on a Shift Gear set)

8: Ik that corsola is probably one of the best tanks, but what about shuckle? Shuckle has worse stats overall than corsola, but his purpose is to be a tank, and, with 230 defense and special defense, he tanks everything. Can anyone tell me why shuckle isn’t used at all (aside from his other terrible stats)

Shuckle has very low base HP stat, meaning it will still get a lot of damage percentage wise when hit by a move. It also doesn't have many support options other than hazards. The lack of recovery and bad defensive typing makes it impossible for Shuckle to reliable wall the Pokémon you think it should wall

 

[Jordy]

Thank you for the acknowledgement of everyone in the thread (myself included) talking about these niche options. I like to bring them up because I feel as though a lot of these options have a great possibility of going beyond just being niche if people discover them and use them. (Particularly with Pokemon I've talked about such as Toxicroak and Silvally-Steel which have valuable niches in OU, but are ignored because new toy syndrome didn't hit them).

In spirit of this, I'd like to bring up another new Pokemon that I've had some unexpected but more than welcome success with in OU. Eldegoss.

Eldegoss

Eldegoss @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Rapid Spin
- Sleep Powder
- Leaf Storm / Aromatherapy​

You're probably wondering, what the hell can this thing do? Doesn't it have weird stats and a limited movepool? Well, those weird stats and limited movepool just meant that it was a bit harder for people to find a use for it. But here's what I've discovered with my time with this flying cotton ball, it's actually one of the most specifically tailored Rapid Spin Pokemon ever created by Game Freak.

• Eldegoss (and its pre-evolution) is the only Pokemon in the entire game to have access to the uniquely deadly combination of Sleep Powder and Rapid Spin.
• Eldegoss is also the only Pokemon in the entire game to have access to both Rapid Spin and Regenerator, giving Eldegoss a specific longevity that other spinners just don't have.
• Eldegoss is ALSO the only Pokemon in the entire game to have access to both Rapid Spin and Leech Seed, allowing them to set up along with breaking down bulkier switch ins.
• Having access to all these unique niches gives Eldegoss its best reason for existing in OU, unique role compression in a way that no other Pokemon can do.
• 60 / 90 / 120 bulk is solid especially with Regenerator and Leech Seed backing it up. There are a wide variety of Pokemon on the Special side that cannot break Eldegoss.
• Eldegoss has access to a variety of other options if your set requires specific tailoring such as Synthesis for more reliable recovery, Aromatherapy to act as a cleric, Protect and Substitute for scouting, and Stun Spore to spread paralysis.
• Cinderace cannot Court Change Leech Seed, as many players who have come against my Eldegoss have tried to do with no avail.
• Eldegoss has additional offensive coverage options such as Pollen Puff, Hyper Voice, and Weather Ball for 100 BP Fire STAB on Sun Teams.
• Eldegoss can handle Pokemon that Rapid Spinners like Excadrill cannot handle, such as Seismitoad and Gastrodon

Give Eldegoss a try if you need the unique niche of a Rapid Spinner that can set up Leech Seed and put your enemy's Pokemon to sleep.

You mention that Eldegoss can check bulky Water-types, but with the set you provided, that is not the case against most of them. Atleast not with the set you provided. Without Aromatherapy, Seismitoad and Toxapex can just cripple it with Toxic, while Milotic can threaten it by paralyzing it. Other bulky Water-types like Gastrodon can severely annoy it by burning it. However, without Leaf Storm, you can't pressure them at all, besides maybe putting them to sleep, but Sleep Powder is so unreliable that it's not really something you want to crutch on against Pokemon that Eldegoss is supposed to beat, especially when it really needs Sleep Powder to cripple its common checks. Dropping Leech Seed for Aromatherapy would make a lot more sense than dropping Leaf Storm or whatever Grass-type move you're running in my eyes, but Leech Seed is also vital in providing some slight pressure, which Eldegoss can't otherwise.

Moving on from my gripes with the particular set provided, there's a few other issues with Eldegoss that really prevent it from being viable. Eldegoss lets in a lot of top tier threats, such as Hydreigon, Dragapult, Clefable, Corviknight, Rotom-H, Toxapex, Aegislash, Ferrothorn, and many more for almost completely for free; it relies almost entirely on Sleep Powder to punish them, which is unreliable. On top of that, a lot of teams have more than one of these Pokemon, and you can only put one Pokemon to sleep at a time, so Sleep Powder can't alleviate that issue entirely. Eldegoss also doesn't really check anything very well, so the fact that it has access to the coveted combination of Regenerator and Rapid Spin doesn't really mean much in the end because it simply doesn't warrant usage on teams. No, Regenerator + Rapid Spin on a Grass-type that can't even check what it's supposed to well, isn't a defining niche that warrants usage.

I'm not saying Eldegoss is unusable by any means, but usability does not equal viability.

 

[xRiseAboveHatex]

Kommo-o might be better in OU than we thought. Immunity to Shadow Ball is pretty insane, allows it to set up and switch into an Aegislash. DDance/Clang with EQ/Drain Punch/Poison Jab has been pretty nutty. Allows it to break every wall in the game. With Dynamax gone too doesn't need a mixed set to abuse Max Ooze either.

 

[A BAD TIME]

I'm going to try and answer some of your questions as good as I possibly can, hope you learn a thing or 2!

Corsola-G is an extremely passive mon. If you want to run either of the screens, your opponent most of the time won't have trouble just stalling them out because of the reason you are stalling them out for them. The main benefit of Light Screen and Reflect are to give offensive Pokémon extra bulk so they have an easier time setting up/breaking the opponent's team. While it does sound amazing to have a Corsola-G with Eviolite and Screens up, you're opponent won't feel extra threatened because the way to deal with Corsola-G is just set on hold rather than making Corsola-G the unkillable machine you might think it becomes.


It's only an emegency check and only IF Dracovish is Scarf AND you are at high HP. As soon as it Choice Band or Rain boosted you have a chance of being OHKOed. The damage from scarf is too high to switch in. If vish kills a thing and you come in for free, he can just switch out and chip Corsola-G down until it is in range. Also, Corsola-G's is way lower than the usage Water Absorb and Storm Drain Pokémon have right now, so it's just better to keep them as a Dracovish check rather than trying to fit Corsola in as an non-answer
Scarf vish calc:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 171-202 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 255-301 (78.7 - 92.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock



Clefable has been seen running Offensive and Utility sets. For more information I'll refer you to these links:
https://www.smogon.com/dex/ss/pokemon/clefable/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/clefable-qc-0-3.3658607/


The percentage of the opponent not attacking is 70% (60% chance for a flinch + 25% chance for para when he doesn't flinch (40%) -> 60% + 25%*40* = 70%). Togekiss actually is pretty good in the current meta, I would recommend running Heavy Duty Boots or Leftovers so you don't get worn down that easily. Grimmsnarl with Twave can be a good partner to spread the paralysis so Togekiss can come in late game and do his flinch thing. This is of course all luck based and won't work 100% of the time.

Toxtricity is a good pokemon but I would recommend using Life orb Or Choice specs over Magnet. The overall damage boost give Boomburst that extra bit of damage that make the ground switchin really fear it.
I would also not run venoshock and toxic, Toxtricity isn't the fastest pokémon and you're better of with using Shift Gear as setup move or 2 other attacks. Some attacks you can run on it are Snarl, Volt Switch, Sludge Wave or Fire punch (on a Shift Gear set)


Shuckle has very low base HP stat, meaning it will still get a lot of damage percentage wise when hit by a move. It also doesn't have many support options other than hazards. The lack of recovery and bad defensive typing makes it impossible for Shuckle to reliable wall the Pokémon you think it should wall

Thank you for responding, and this new information will help me out a lot.

 

[Robot7620]

To start, this is my first post, and I’m new to competitive Pokémon. I have a couple of questions to start off with:
1: Galarian Corsola is already stupid bulky, but it also gets light screen and reflect. Why have there been no sets running this? Ik it’s probably because corsola only really has one move slot it can change around, as 3 moves are basically required (Nightshade, Will’O’Wisp, and Strength sap,) so why haven’t people put light screen in the final slot because corsola is already great at destroying physical Pokémon, so a 50% decrease from special moves means that corsola won’t die. Also, if you have a prankster grimmsnarl use light screen and reflect before you send out corsola, you don’t need those moves on corsola.
2: Why has no one used galarian corsola against the fish himself? Scarf fish is a 2HKO, so if you use strength sap you will lower the fish’s attack by 33.3%, and heal back all health from fishious rend. Use it again to guarantee living the next hit + make his attack half of normal (142 to 71) and you can wear him down from there with night shade. If it’s banded fish, it’s around a 40% to OHKO, so use strength sap 2-3 times to lower the fish’s attack enough to where you are safe. Ik that water absorb and storm drain Pokémon are way better, but not everyone is going to have a Pokémon with either of those abilities, while corsola is a Pokémon most people have.
3: Because I am new to competitive Pokémon, I would like to know some sets using clefable. I had no idea that clefable is one of the best Pokémon in the game, so some sets would be helpful.
4: With all of the talk about flinching with galarian darmanitan using icicle crash, it made me think of para-flinch togekiss. Use thunder wave and a move that flinches, and, if you have serene grace, there is a 85% chance of either paralysis or flinching. Idk if bright powder and lax incense are legal, but, if they are, holding either of those will make it a 86.5% chance of not attacking, and that’s if they use 100% accurate moves. For the EVs of my togekiss, I put 252 HP/252 SPE/4 ATK, so it would be fast and bulky.
5: I haven’t seen anything with toxtricity, so I will talk about a set for him. Get a toxtricity that’s amped form, and teach it overdrive, boom burst, toxic, and veno shock. It’s ability should be punk rock, and have it hold either throat spray or a magnet. EVs should be 252 SPA/252 SPE/4 HP, so that it is as fast as possible and plenty of special attack for sound moves. There are some counters, such as excadrill and seismitoad, galarian darmanitan, the fish, and bulky Pokémon. However, these attacks are ridiculously strong, and the base power of a boom burst off the get go is 210, while overdrive is 270 base power if you have a magnet. Toxtricity isn’t the best Pokémon, but it’s a good gimmick Pokémon if they don’t have anything to deal with it.
6: An idea for a prank dracovish set is make it have water absorb, so when they use their fish, it won’t do anything. This is just a thought tho, and probably won’t happen. Use moves that would be supereffective against the fish, such as dragon moves.
7: Galarian mr. mime has a gimmick of being able to OHKO the fish, gyrados, seismitoad, and more. It learns the move freeze dry, which is an ice move that is supereffective against water types. The 3 Pokémon listed above are 4x weak to this move, so it effectively has a base power of 480 against those 3, all of which are very prominent in the meta. The reason you would use galarian mr. mime instead of mr. rime is because mr. mime is faster. The set would be choice scarf held item, screen wiper for ability, and move set just has to have freeze dry. EVs should be 252 SPA/252 SPE/4 HP. This is a potential dracovish counter.
8: Ik that corsola is probably one of the best tanks, but what about shuckle? Shuckle has worse stats overall than corsola, but his purpose is to be a tank, and, with 230 defense and special defense, he tanks everything. Can anyone tell me why shuckle isn’t used at all (aside from his other terrible stats)
Thanks for reading this post, and I hope my ideas weren’t too idiotic.

1） Gcor simply can't afford to run Light Screen.
Even if you found another rocker, phazing is too valuable.
Sure, it's bulky physically, but I'm sure it won't survive more than 2 hits of anything at +6.
2) GCor is not a good fish check precisely because it's 2hko'd. Band can even OHKO (i think it one-shots after rocks) so you'd need to bring it in safely via VSwitch or Turn or revenge killing. It's a much better idea to go to Toad or Jelli or just a water immunity instead of risking a OHKO from Band.
3)

spdef clef

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Wish
- Moonblast
- Thunder Wave / Stealth Rock

LO Clef

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Moonlight
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt

4) No one is using Togekiss because it is quite easy to revenge kill as well as requiring more than ideal team support.
5) GDarm is banned so I have no idea why you listed him as a counter for Tox.
And Drill is definitely not a counter, it can not switch in for free, it is 2hko'd by Specs Boomburst.
6) No one is using water absorb vish because if the opponent does not have a vish that's a wasted ability. You would almost always rather have the 1.5x boost to rend.
7) The problem is mr . rime has mediocre stats, plus it's movepool is nothing to brag about. ngl, it's pretty bad, but it does have rapid spin so ;-;
8) Shuckle has a friggin' 20 HP stat. It is 2hko'd by strong attackers like Choiced Aegis, as well as being setup fodder for substitute users and steels/poisons that can afford to take an Infestation.
hope i helped :)

Kommo-o might be better in OU than we thought. Immunity to Shadow Ball is pretty insane, allows it to set up and switch into an Aegislash. DDance/Clang with EQ/Drain Punch/Poison Jab has been pretty nutty. Allows it to break every wall in the game. With Dynamax gone too doesn't need a mixed set to abuse Max Ooze either.

Kommo-o isn't receiving too much hype rn because while it is decent that isn't exactly a new revelation.
Besides, being immune to Sylveon's Hyper Voice is much more valuable, and one last point Specs Aegis isn't its only moveset, Band exists too, and personally I favor it more.

 

[robofiend]

I'm just curious, not making any claims here, but do people think Aegislash is banworthy/potentially banworthy this generation?

 

[Robot7620]

I'm just curious, not making any claims here, but do people think Aegislash is banworthy/potentially banworthy this generation?

Probably not.
While it is very good this generation, it is rather managable with the nerf to King Shield and it's defenses/offenses.
Not only that, it lost Toxic, so it can no longer stall out pokemon. Plus, it's just smacked by common pokemon like Excadrill, Rotom-Heat, etc.
That being said, you shouldn't undersell it. It's still very good, and I've been loving it's Band set. It's just so friggin' powerful.

 

[Finchinator]

I'm just curious, not making any claims here, but do people think Aegislash is banworthy/potentially banworthy this generation?

Ever since the choice band and choice specs sets took over, I definitely have thought about it. I am not convinced in either direction yet, but it may warrant serious discussion in the future.

 

[UnfortunateSal]

Is it appropriate to talk about things that we consider to be potentially worthy of a suspect test, either now or in the future in this thread? Right now I don't think anything is outright broken to a fairly noticeable degree, but there are a couple things I worry might be not be good for the tier as it currently stands. I'm not sure if this thread is the right place to discuss this though.

 

[ILUOfficial]

So I deeply understand that Darmanitan is a threat and that Ice/fire/ground coverage is insane, but why did they decide to ban Darmanitan as a whole instead of making a gorilla tactics clause?

 

[DrPumpkinz]

So I deeply understand that Darmanitan is a threat and that Ice/fire/ground coverage is insane, but why did they decide to ban Darmanitan as a whole instead of making a gorilla tactics clause?

1) One of Smogon's fundamental philosophies is to "ban the Pokemon, not the part." Banning abilities and moves are only done in extreme cases.

2) Banning Gorilla Tactics while not banning the objectively superior Huge Power would be fucking stupid.

 

[Eeveeto]

While people are mentioning potential suspects, I would like to bring what I believe are the best targets for a Suspect Test in the current Meta.

1: Arena Trap. In the past Generations I was opposed to this Ban, as I believed that Arena Trap brought something positive to OU Meta, namely acting as a punishment for those who used some otherwise Top OU threats: Heatran, Mawile, Magearna, Tyranitar, Tapu Lele, etc. In SS this is no longer the case. In SS Dugtrio traps almost no Top OU threats ( between S and A- in the VR only Tyranitar is reliably trapped, with Drill, Toxapex, Clef, Hatterene and Dracovish being also situational targets, depending on the set). Dugtrio doesn't trap Corviknight, doesn't trap Rotom, doesn't trap Dragapult or Aegislash. What Dugtrio traps are less used Mons that become almost inviable due to Dugtrio existance. Every Electric or Fire type not named Rotom, Chandelure or Charizard ( lol) becomes almost unviable due to Dugtrio, making BU Corviknight an even better Mon that it already is. Sylveon and Snorlax, are trapeable, which makes Hydreigons and Lo Clefs life easier. Bisharp and Obstagoon could act as ( not very reliable but still) switch -in to Aegi or Dragapult, but they are susceptible to trapping too.

In short, I believe that Arena Traps influence is unhealthy for OU since it centralizes the Tier by making already amazing mons even better and more niche Mons worse.

2: Dracovish. You should know the reasoning of this one by now. It's almost useless against teams with Seismitoad, Gastro, Quag ( who has never ran Water Absorb since it got Unaware in Bw until Dracovish appeared) and Vaporeon. It will always kill a Mon against teams without those Mons. Dracovish has just enough Speed to outspeed every wall with a Band and every offensive Mon with a Scarf. It also has just enough bulk to survive every unboosted non fairy/dragon Move. Seismitoad is a good Mon and I have used it in every OU Tier since Bw. It would still be a good Mon even if Dracovish didn't exist, as it has a good role compresion and typing which lets it check Rotoms and Dracozolt among other things. But the fact that it's the 4th most used Mon in the Tier despite its flaws ( low Stats, no recovery outside of Rest) should be enough to see the huge restrictions that Dracovish puts on team-building.

I could speak about Dracovish and Arena Trap forever, but I think that most of it has already been said by someone, so take this post as a yet another reminder about the fact that something needs to be done with the mole and the monster that suffers every second of its life.

 

[UnfortunateSal]

Okay, I'll bite. I think Hydreigon might be a bit too much for the current OU tier. It is just so effective against such wide a variety of teams, to an extent that I don't think anything else in the tier is right now.

Currently, it has 4 viable sets: NP LO, Specs, Sub NP and Scarf. I ordered them this way since I feel like the sets operate on a sliding scale from most effective vs defensive teams, which would be NP LO (has zero answers besides Sylveon at full health) to most effective against offensive teams (which is Scarf for being a great revenge killer, cleaner and pivot). Specs is easily the least popular, and probably the least viable, but it can fuck over switchins like Sylveon thanks to the extra immediate damage, and the fact that it makes it easier to outlive these checks due to the lack of LO recoil. Plus it fares better against stuff trying to tank a hit or switch in on Nasty Plot and revenge kill it. Sub NP has fallen off recently because it fails to break a handful of defensive Pokemon, but it is still good as hell and Leftovers allows it to remain a consistent check to the Rotoms and certain bulky Water types.

You could argue that the versatility is a point against it, since the more it increases its ability to check and counter stuff, the easier it is to check and counter itself, Scarf being fairly inneffective against defensive teams. And the more it increases its wallbreaking potential, the harder it is for it to come in on stuff, the LO set being worn down particularly easily. However, I feel like the versatility makes it a lot harder to play around than something like Dracovish (the main reason I think Dracovish isn't as much of an issue as Hydreigon right now), and even just a single set contains so much in one package.

I don't know if I'd consider Hydreigon to be suspect-worthy right now, but I do think it at least deserves to be looked at and considered as a potential banworthy Pokemon.

 

[A BAD TIME]

1） Gcor simply can't afford to run Light Screen.
Even if you found another rocker, phazing is too valuable.
Sure, it's bulky physically, but I'm sure it won't survive more than 2 hits of anything at +6.
2) GCor is not a good fish check precisely because it's 2hko'd. Band can even OHKO (i think it one-shots after rocks) so you'd need to bring it in safely via VSwitch or Turn or revenge killing. It's a much better idea to go to Toad or Jelli or just a water immunity instead of risking a OHKO from Band.
3)

spdef clef

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Wish
- Moonblast
- Thunder Wave / Stealth Rock

LO Clef

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Moonlight
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt

4) No one is using Togekiss because it is quite easy to revenge kill as well as requiring more than ideal team support.
5) GDarm is banned so I have no idea why you listed him as a counter for Tox.
And Drill is definitely not a counter, it can not switch in for free, it is 2hko'd by Specs Boomburst.
6) No one is using water absorb vish because if the opponent does not have a vish that's a wasted ability. You would almost always rather have the 1.5x boost to rend.
7) The problem is mr . rime has mediocre stats, plus it's movepool is nothing to brag about. ngl, it's pretty bad, but it does have rapid spin so ;-;
8) Shuckle has a friggin' 20 HP stat. It is 2hko'd by strong attackers like Choiced Aegis, as well as being setup fodder for substitute users and steels/poisons that can afford to take an Infestation.
hope i helped :)

Thank you for responding. In response to my question about toxtricity, excadrill can OHKO if toxtricity isn’t invested in defense or special defense with a ground type move. I have seen Pokémon like excadrill OHKO tox with high horsepower, so, if you get a safe switch in, such as a teleport or when one of your Pokémon is knocked out, you can out speed the tox and one shot with a ground move. And, if they get stuck using either overdrive or an electric or poison move, excadrill destroys tox in that situation. That’s just what I wanted to respond to, and thanks for helping me out.

 

[ThatMangoLife]

I've been playing for some time and here are my thoughts.

Firstly I'd like to say how much fun I'm having. I enjoyed the previous 2 gens, but this is even better, feels balanced after Dynamax went. Hope The new expansion doesn't change that.

Secondly I think there are two pokemon which dominate Dragapult and Hydreigon. Both should be S tier, I think Dragapult warrants a suspect, maybe Hydreigon too.

Dragapult has too many sets, physical or special. It's speed tier means it even outspeeds slow scarfers, e.g. Dracovish. It's physical is easier to prepare for, but special worse. The most problematic set however is Hex, Sub, will-o-wisp, disable. It's the best mon in the tier IMO.

Hydreigon sub nasty plot is also an issue. It subs on a favourable pokemon, nasty plot ups. Good typing allowing it to live/switch in on pokemon, coverage, it sweeps teams once the sub is set up. You often have to let a pokemon go just to kill the sub. You can argue it's worth in versatility, you can run scarf,sub, specs etc.

The bad thing about these pokemon as usually you have to use a turn to work out what set they are. This can sometimes cost you a game, they sub it's game over, or they take out a vital pokemon instead via specs/scarf when you predicted them to be sub. These two pokemon are just so versatile, it's extremely difficult to prepare for all of their sets, one of their sets will run through your team.

I think the rise of Sylveon is mainly to deal with these two mons. In fact Sylveon arguably might be the only counter to these mons (especially Dragapult). As it has a sound move attack that bypasses sub and decent special defense. The issue is outside these two mons, Sylveon is found lacking. And even then Sylveon struggles against a physical Dragapult set with Phantom Force, or can be killed by Hydreigon with Flash Cannon if not at full health.

 

[Robot7620]

I've been playing for some time and here are my thoughts.

Firstly I'd like to say how much fun I'm having. I enjoyed the previous 2 gens, but this is even better, feels balanced after Dynamax went. Hope The new expansion doesn't change that.

Secondly I think there are two pokemon which dominate Dragapult and Hydreigon. Both should be S tier, I think Dragapult warrants a suspect, maybe Hydreigon too.

Dragapult has too many sets, physical or special. It's speed tier means it even outspeeds slow scarfers, e.g. Dracovish. It's physical is easier to prepare for, but special worse. The most problematic set however is Hex, Sub, will-o-wisp, disable. It's the best mon in the tier IMO.

Hydreigon sub nasty plot is also an issue. It subs on a favourable pokemon, nasty plot ups. Good typing allowing it to live/switch in on pokemon, coverage, it sweeps teams once the sub is set up. You often have to let a pokemon go just to kill the sub. You can argue it's worth in versatility, you can run scarf,sub, specs etc.

The bad thing about these pokemon as usually you have to use a turn to work out what set they are. This can sometimes cost you a game, they sub it's game over, or they take out a vital pokemon instead via specs/scarf when you predicted them to be sub. These two pokemon are just so versatile, it's extremely difficult to prepare for all of their sets, one of their sets will run through your team.

I think the rise of Sylveon is mainly to deal with these two mons. In fact Sylveon arguably might be the only counter to these mons (especially Dragapult). As it has a sound move attack that bypasses sub and decent special defense. The issue is outside these two mons, Sylveon is found lacking. And even then Sylveon struggles against a physical Dragapult set with Phantom Force, or can be killed by Hydreigon with Flash Cannon if not at full health.

Dragapult is handled the exact same way as the standard Specs.
Plus Infiltrator and Sylveon always exist.
Hydreigon is even worse; Sylveon and even Clefable can deal with it extremely well.
Sylveon doesn't even struggle against a physical Dragapult, it can just switch out ;-;
Plus Mandibuzz always exists, just run Foul Play if you struggle with Dragapult.

 

[Jordy]

Hydreigon is even worse; Sylveon and even Clefable can deal with it extremely well.

This isn't really the case. Life Orb Hydreigon has a pretty easy time overwhelming them all things considered.

Anyways, I'd like to talk about a certain Pokemon, Togekiss.


Many people have argued against Togekiss's niche since the Dynamax ban, including myself, but after having used it pretty extensively, I think it's genuinely still quite solid. The fact that Togekiss's offensive coverage good isn't something that can be understated; Flying + Fire coverage is almost impossible to handle reliably, especially when factoring in Air Slash's significant chance to flinch. The only Pokemon that really handles this combination is Rotom-H, which can definitely be worked around pretty well. Togekiss can also take advantage of Pokemon like Toxapex and Seismitoad very well. If it ever manages to use Substitute, Togekiss is bound to be annoying. Another thing that Togekiss has going for it right now that makes it really annoying is that a decent amount of Conkeldurr, a Pokemon that is rising in usage right now, have started to drop Facade or Thunder Punch in favor of Bulk Up and Close Combat, making Togekiss quite useful as a pivot into it.

 

[Pro_Hybrid]

I wanted to share a Shedinja team I had some moderate success with on the ladder.

https://pokepast.es/61f5ae7c8837f022

The lack of Pursuit really helps Shedinja. The double Magic Bounce core of Hatterne and Xatu, as well as Corviknight to Defog, helps to keep Shedinja safe on the field. I'm been experimenting with a few specific move techs, like Thief on Shedinja to steal an item after the Focus Sash is used. Heavy-Duty Boots is probably another decent option, maybe dropping one Magic Bounce user for another wall.

 

[Amadeus9]

I wanted to share a Shedinja team I had some moderate success with on the ladder.

https://pokepast.es/61f5ae7c8837f022

The lack of Pursuit really helps Shedinja. The double Magic Bounce core of Hatterne and Xatu, as well as Corviknight to Defog, helps to keep Shedinja safe on the field. I'm been experimenting with a few specific move techs, like Thief on Shedinja to steal an item after the Focus Sash is used. Heavy-Duty Boots is probably another decent option, maybe dropping one Magic Bounce user for another wall.

Your team completely crumbles to any ghost type. Specs Gengar and Aegi both 6-0 you lol. That's not something you can really rectify without taking this team completely back to the drawing board. The prevalence of Ghost-types definitely has made Shedinja very difficult to use in my experience. I don't think it's viable.

edit: Additionally the set used is a bit suspect... sash thief is one hell of a gimmick and does not seem worth using over heavy duty boots to me at all

 

[Kioskate]

I wanted to share a Shedinja team I had some moderate success with on the ladder.

https://pokepast.es/61f5ae7c8837f022

The lack of Pursuit really helps Shedinja. The double Magic Bounce core of Hatterne and Xatu, as well as Corviknight to Defog, helps to keep Shedinja safe on the field. I'm been experimenting with a few specific move techs, like Thief on Shedinja to steal an item after the Focus Sash is used. Heavy-Duty Boots is probably another decent option, maybe dropping one Magic Bounce user for another wall.

I tried using Shedinja on stall a little after Darm was banned. I thought the next most likely ban would be Arena Trap so if Shedinja is going to be viable in OU it would be best before that happens. I ended up finding that the only things it really beat for me were Conkeldurr and Toxtricity. Looking through all the S and A rank mons everything beats it except some Corviknight, which will happily come in and defog, Clefable not running fire moves, which it does too often to depend on, Conkeldurr and Rotom-Wash if it isn't hex/dark pulse.

If it had U-Turn and could spin block Excadrill it might be useful, but as is it needs too much support to do too little for your team.

 

[chimp]

2: Dracovish. You should know the reasoning of this one by now. It's almost useless against teams with Seismitoad, Gastro, Quag ( who has never ran Water Absorb since it got Unaware in Bw until Dracovish appeared) and Vaporeon. It will always kill a Mon against teams without those Mons. Dracovish has just enough Speed to outspeed every wall with a Band and every offensive Mon with a Scarf. It also has just enough bulk to survive every unboosted non fairy/dragon Move. Seismitoad is a good Mon and I have used it in every OU Tier since Bw. It would still be a good Mon even if Dracovish didn't exist, as it has a good role compresion and typing which lets it check Rotoms and Dracozolt among other things. But the fact that it's the 4th most used Mon in the Tier despite its flaws ( low Stats, no recovery outside of Rest) should be enough to see the huge restrictions that Dracovish puts on team-building.

I could speak about Dracovish and Arena Trap forever, but I think that most of it has already been said by someone, so take this post as a yet another reminder about the fact that something needs to be done with the mole and the monster that suffers every second of its life.

I wanna throw my hat into the ring with the talk on Dracovish, because I think it brings up an interesting discussion on the difference between overpowered and over-centralizing. I'm sure not many here would argue that Dracovish is overpowered, because it is easy to play around if you have the right counters. But the key here is exactly that: the right counters. Seismitoad is a cool 'mon, but certainly not one whose currently usage is reflective of its actual capabilities, in my opinion (see below for more on that). Dracovish absolutely can tear through teams that are not prepared to take it on. And while that can be said for many other Pokemon, I do think that the ridiculous usage of Seismitoad is symptomatic of the how looming the threat of a well-played Dracovish really is. If anything, it brings up an interesting paradox in the competitive Pokemon world- where the better something is, the seemingly worse it gets. The few things that do check Dracovish check it hard, but is that healthy for the metagame? I genuinely am unsure. Because on the other hand, having to prep for certain Pokemon is the nature of the game. But at what point does the threat of a single Pokemon become too great?
Disclaimer: This isn't necessarily a call to arms or anything, and I'm not even sure I think it should be banned. However, I would like to seem more discussion on this phenomenon, because its been something I've been thinking about ever since the usage stats dropped and we saw Toad at #4 (#3 on the 1825 ladder... higher than Darmanitan-Galar).



Shifting gears a little bit: SPL XI started, and as of right now 4 SS OU matches have been played:
[TIG] robjr vs Twixtry [RUI]
[TIG] 1 True Lycan vs Empo [RUI]
[BIG] Ima vs Lopunny Kicks [SCO]
[CRY] Updated Kanto vs insult [CLA]

Here are just some thoughts on the matches and what they might imply about the metagame:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-470814
robjr vs. Twixtry

This match seemed like a really good showing for Dugtrio. I'm really digging the simple core of Duggy + Dragapult. Once Twixtry was able to trap Robjr's Clefable on Turn 16, he was able to spam Draco Meteors without much hesitation, which he does to eliminate Mandibuzz on Turn 33, then Seismitoad on Turn 41 and finally Rotom-Heat on Turn 46 to win the game. Speaking of 'Toad, you can really feel how much of a dead weight it was in this match-up, allowing Twixtry to get a free switch in to Ferrothorn nearly every time to keep the Stealth Rock pressure up.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-470762
1 True Lycan vs. Empo

This match was a 191 turn slog which is longer than I care to watch right now, sorry mates. One thing thats kinda interesting is that Dugtrio didn't end up coming out until turn 159 (and only did so because of Whirlwind), proving the stalling power of the rest of Lycan's team.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-470818
ima vs. lopunny kicks

I really like how Lopunny kicks used their Ditto in this match. It was sort of like an 'anti-pivot.' Thats not the greatest term for it, but generally when you think of ditto you think of it as a sweeper-stealing, anti-offensive Pokemon, but Lopunny kicks used it to frustrate ima's Rotom-Heat and Corviknight, all the while both revealing their movesets and getting a source of Volt Switch / U-turn. It was also able to block ima's Rotom-Heat's Trick, which is seemingly like a very devastating tech in the metagame right now.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-470730
Updated Kanto vs. INSULT

Here's another match-up where Seismitoad very much felt like dead weight, being too scared of Toxic from Toxapex and Trick from Rotom to really reliably do much. Sure it got rocks up twice, but it wasn't able to provide any assistance in keeping them up, nor was it really able to take advantage of them in anyway. This is how I've been feeling about Seismitoad as well, though I've really only used it on the ladder. You need to play it with some surgery-like precision to avoid losing momentum, and it generally hasn't been a particularly fun Pokemon to use.

Anyway, that was only four matches of many that still need to happen for SS OU this week, and I am looking forward to watching them. I'd like to hear others thoughts on the matches so far as well as their own analyses: anything I missed or you disagree with? Let me know.

 

[Finchinator]

Absolutely love the analysis -- please keep it coming! But keep in mind that we also have an SPL OU Discussion thread to post about those matches, too. So feel free to make similar posts in that thread moving forward!

 

[Deleted User 229847]

This match was a 191 turn slog which is longer than I care to watch right now, sorry mates. One thing thats kinda interesting is that Dugtrio didn't end up coming out until turn 159 (and only did so because of Whirlwind), proving the stalling power of the rest of Lycan's team.

He came a bit earlier, I think turn 130 or something, but otherwise you are correct. It was an interesting match and I think empo was a bit unlucky (receiving a crit, not doing one with flash cannon on sylveon + no para when needed) and also missplayed ( setting rocks when sylveon could have been killed with EQ and remained paralized so he could not protect, probably using thunderwave on hydreigon in any point of the match when trying to toxic with toxapex was better I think?).

 

[theotherguytm]

The 4th match was interesting with Thunder rolls. Despite it having a 30% chance to miss, it missed once out of 11 times, but more significantly, out of 10 hits it did not trigger the 30% paralysis once, allowing Ttar to repeatedly force Reuniclus out and beat it 1v1 again and again.

 

[Jordy]

Absolutely love the analysis -- please keep it coming! But keep in mind that we also have an SPL OU Discussion thread to post about those matches, too. So feel free to make similar posts in that thread moving forward!

Just want to make this explicitly clear one more time. I won't bother moving posts to the SPL discussion thread and will just delete them instead.