Unpopular opinions

[DrPumpkinz]

Alright so my unpopular opinion is that Brawly is garbage, Drampa is the worst dragon type, and anyone that likes both is a poophead.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Interestingly, the reason many people seem to want D/P remakes is "because they were the good old days". But the things that made the good old days the good old days are actively being stamped out these days. Sprawling areas that take a long time to navigate (and perhaps more importantly, a lot of time and money to re-create with modern graphics), route trainers using several Pokémon, competently designed Gym Leader teams, side quests like Pokémon Contests and the Sinnoh Underground, postgame facilities, and so on. This isn't stuff Game Freak has somehow forgot to make, they're simply choosing not to make them these days, and a remake of D/P would be likely to continue in that spirit. It would not contain all of the stuff that made the Sinnoh games so good.

Why would they leave that stuff out? They didn't for ORAS. Granted Super Contests do have a greater challenge in newer games as one of the differences it had was adding pieces of clothing/decorations to Pokemon. Easy to do with sprites, but models a bit more challenging (though there could be a way to do it but would require GF to let go control of making the Pokemon models look good). However the Underground I don't see any problems them doing (and the Gen IV Battle Frontier was less complicated then the Gen III Battle Frontier in term of design and gimmick).

Also, aside from the Wild Area, they can do with the Sinnoh region what they did with the rest of the Galar region but take design inspirations from Sinnoh's maps. And heck, instead of one giant Wild Area, maybe they could make certain locations be like the Wild Biomes. I'm thinking the top of Mt. Coronet leading up to Spear Pillar, Floaroma Meadow, Great Marsh, Route 217, Route 223, Route 225/226/227/228, (maybe some other Routes), & the Distortion World.

As for the trainers and Gym Leaders, well they could just use the teams they used originally for Platinum, and use the Platinum dex as well but modified for version exclusives.

But of course we'd have to shove in the new mechanics, aka Dynamax, though considering Sinnoh's theme was myths & legends and their mascots are the gods of space and time they can probably come up with some BS. I would even say this could let them also bring back the Ultra Wormholes.

 

[DreamPrince]

Why would they leave that stuff out? They didn't for ORAS. Granted Super Contests do have a greater challenge in newer games as one of the differences it had was adding pieces of clothing/decorations to Pokemon. Easy to do with sprites, but models a bit more challenging (though there could be a way to do it but would require GF to let go control of making the Pokemon models look good). However the Underground I don't see any problems them doing (and the Gen IV Battle Frontier was less complicated then the Gen III Battle Frontier in term of design and gimmick).

Also, aside from the Wild Area, they can do with the Sinnoh region what they did with the rest of the Galar region but take design inspirations from Sinnoh's maps. And heck, instead of one giant Wild Area, maybe they could make certain locations be like the Wild Biomes. I'm thinking the top of Mt. Coronet leading up to Spear Pillar, Floaroma Meadow, Great Marsh, Route 217, Route 223, Route 225/226/227/228, (maybe some other Routes), & the Distortion World.

As for the trainers and Gym Leaders, well they could just use the teams they used originally for Platinum, and use the Platinum dex as well but modified for version exclusives.

But of course we'd have to shove in the new mechanics, aka Dynamax, though considering Sinnoh's theme was myths & legends and their mascots are the gods of space and time they can probably come up with some BS. I would even say this could let them also bring back the Ultra Wormholes.

They would still have to redesign the routes for it being like the Wild Area, making them more expansive an explorable. The Great Marsh would be probably be the best place for a Wild Area, since the Safari Zone is dead now. Though they’d still have to redesign it from scratch for it be comparable to Galar.

And while I don’t think contests and underground will be gone, I do fear the Poke Radar will be. DP effectively had pretty much every Pokémon catchable that wasn’t a Legendary/Starter. This was because of the PokeRadar allowed you to catch these Pokémon. But considering the philosophy now is to ‘catch some’, I wouldn’t be surprised if they removed it from the remakes.

 

[Pikachu315111]

They would still have to redesign the routes for it being like the Wild Area, making them more expansive an explorable. The Great Marsh would be probably be the best place for a Wild Area, since the Safari Zone is dead now. Though they’d still have to redesign it from scratch for it be comparable to Galar.

Would it seem small minded of me to say that, to me, the Wild Area just seemed like it was a big route you had control of the camera? Like for a Pokemon fan it's neat to see such a wide open area which was made up of several locations each having their own list of Pokemon... but individually that list was no bigger then a mid/late game route. And because of that, unless they do something interesting, I don't want another Wild Area like Sword & Shield. That's an example where I'm fine with GF going "been there, done that". SwSh's Wild Area was a test if they could do it, now it's time to make it interesting (sort of like LoZ: OoT's Hyrule Field, for the time it was amazing how big they could make it but looking back its just a big empty field but later 3D Zelda's used what the developers learned to make more interesting in later games). That's why I suggested "Wild Biomes". They would be "smaller" then the Wild Area but they would provide different environments and in some cases act as the challenge themselves to get past. Like my above examples:

Floaroma Meadow: Easy place to put a SwSh-like Wild Area. And when you first get there it's because you're trying to stop Team Galactic from stealing all the honey and nectar. Now in DPPt it was just a few battles at the entrance, but if they make it a Wild Biome they could have it so you need to run around and find & beat all the Galactic Grunts stealing the nectar. After that you're given full access to the Wild Biome (maybe during the story segment intentionally have some locations blocked off), but now you're vaguely familiar with it and may recall interesting locations you saw and want to check out further.
Great Marsh: An unique location as I don't recall another swampy area in Pokemon. You could tell GF wanted to make it feel big by having that train take you to different areas but with the annoying mud mechanic it just felt like they mistook hindering the player for scale of area. However if they make it a Wild Biome that'll fix that. And while it never had any story importance originally, maybe just to make you go through it they can have Crasher Wake having gone into it for some reason so you need to go through it and find him.
Route 217: Similar to the Great Marsh, this is another location meant to feel big but a gimmick just make it feel like a hindrance. But instead of a muddy swamp it's a snow-covered tundra in a blizzard. In a way when the weather in SwSh's Wild Area is a blizzard it kind of does feel like the spiritual successor to what this route was trying to do with blinding snow, so it should be an easy transition to do. The challenge is obviously just get through it though they could add in some interesting stuff as making it a Wild Biome would make it bigger (maybe have us help out Maylene get to Snowpoint).
Top of Mt. Coronet: Think about it, during the game you often have to travel through Mr. Coronet's tunnels of caves. You see how big it must be from the inside, so finally when you go topside you then enter a Wild Biome that's a snowy mountain top. Instead of expanding out in all directions, instead its a vertical climb as you look out and can see all the other nearby towns and cities. I think it would be quite the site plus having to think how you can get higher up rather then just running straight from one end to another would change up the experience and how they handle the size scope.
Route 223: While SwSh had big lakes land wasn't that far away. How about a Wild Biome that's mostly just water like a sea/ocean? It would have little islands of course but for the most part it would be a challenge to see if they could make just an expanse of water as interesting as at least SwSh's Wild Area.
Route 225-228-230: Ah, you know what, also throw in 229 and 230 as well! Make the entire Battle Zone a Wild Biome except for the Fight Area and Survival Area. Let it be a post game reward, a Wild Area for those players that stuck it out and want one they can really sink their teeth into. May even give players who usually don't hang around for post game content something they can latch onto a little bit longer until all there is left are battles.

Anyway, I would take "interesting and fun to explore" over "big but empty" any day. Because, maybe for what we've gotten in so far in Pokemon the Wild Area seemed impressive... many other games have done big expanses and done it better. Pokemon doing it now more feels like it's trying to catch-up and if that's the case maybe making the areas more interesting by making them different environments would at least hide GF's lack of experience in that respect.

And while I don’t think contests and underground will be gone, I do fear the Poke Radar will be. DP effectively had pretty much every Pokémon catchable that wasn’t a Legendary/Starter. This was because of the PokeRadar allowed you to catch these Pokémon. But considering the philosophy now is to ‘catch some’, I wouldn’t be surprised if they removed it from the remakes.

Well we know the next plans for GF are the expansions which are adding in 200+ Pokemon. I would also assume any of future expansions would also add in more Pokemon. From what I'm thinking, if they can add back in at least all the Pokemon that weren't in the Platinum dex via the expansions it would be a nice set-up for the Sinnoh Remakes as not only would all other Pokemon be back but it could then fill in any missing gaps remaining. And in that way they could return PokeRadar in some form.

 

[Clambats]

Alright so my unpopular opinion is that Brawly is garbage, Drampa is the worst dragon type, and anyone that likes both is a poophead.

my unpopular opinion: most dragon types are bad (design wise) compared to dragons in just about any other media

 

[Siggu]

my unpopular opinion: most dragon types are bad (design wise) compared to dragons in just about any other media

To be fair, most Dragon-types aren't stereotypical dragons to begin with. It's more of a "Dinosaur" type than a Dragon-type.

 

[Codraroll]

Why would they leave that stuff out? They didn't for ORAS. Granted Super Contests do have a greater challenge in newer games as one of the differences it had was adding pieces of clothing/decorations to Pokemon. Easy to do with sprites, but models a bit more challenging (though there could be a way to do it but would require GF to let go control of making the Pokemon models look good). However the Underground I don't see any problems them doing (and the Gen IV Battle Frontier was less complicated then the Gen III Battle Frontier in term of design and gimmick).

Also, aside from the Wild Area, they can do with the Sinnoh region what they did with the rest of the Galar region but take design inspirations from Sinnoh's maps. And heck, instead of one giant Wild Area, maybe they could make certain locations be like the Wild Biomes. I'm thinking the top of Mt. Coronet leading up to Spear Pillar, Floaroma Meadow, Great Marsh, Route 217, Route 223, Route 225/226/227/228, (maybe some other Routes), & the Distortion World.

As for the trainers and Gym Leaders, well they could just use the teams they used originally for Platinum, and use the Platinum dex as well but modified for version exclusives.

But of course we'd have to shove in the new mechanics, aka Dynamax, though considering Sinnoh's theme was myths & legends and their mascots are the gods of space and time they can probably come up with some BS. I would even say this could let them also bring back the Ultra Wormholes.

They sure could do a lot of this stuff, question remains if they want to. The last few games have been developed along the path of least resistance, so I don't have that much faith in them bothering to add more than they absolutely have to. And to be an absolute cynic, the reason why the Gen IV games won't be remade is because the bare minimum required to recreate them on a modern console and with their modern design philosophy is still more work than they want to put in. They would either have to re-create the region in its full glory (too much work), re-imagine large chunks of it (which kinda spoils the point of a remake), or go over it tile-by-tile LGPE-style (still a bit of a gamble as they don't have nearly the same level of nostalgia to sell the game to the masses).

And also, I think it's pretty widely accepted that Diamond and Pearl (excluding Platinum) were contenders for the weakest games in the Pokémon core series. They had, sometimes severe, troubles with Pokémon availability, pace, and overworld navigation. So the fact that we even discuss whether the Gen VIII games compare favourably to them says something about the state of the franchise. Diamond and Pearl were developed for a handheld console almost 15 years ago. Of course mistakes were made that seem pretty rookie in hindsight. The problem is that even the most recent Pokémon games commit many of the same mistakes, as if nothing was learned, and they even compare directly unfavourably in some aspects (the size of the world and its dungeons, for one, or the amount of optional side content). It's as if nothing was learned, and as if they think less of the player experience than they did back then. In many other franchises, it would be completely unthinkable to consider a handheld game from 2006 better than the current flagship entry. The game industry has changed a lot since then, but Pokémon hasn't. I think it's starting to bother me.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

The game industry has changed a lot since then, but Pokémon hasn't. I think it's starting to bother me.

It genuinely baffles me not only how Pokemon has remained so popular, but also how it became so popular in the first place. Sure, the creature design is on point and the PvP is unique, insanely deep, and just generally immaculate, but while the creatures are easy crowd pleasers, PvP doesn't seem like the main focus for many people. From what I've read and watched (I don't trust my rose-tinted memory of Emerald), practically every mainline Pokemon game is ludicrously flawed when played single player. Outside of Gen 5, the first pair of Gen 7, and the finale of Gen 1, the narratives seem consistently poor, and the combat is like a shallow parody of the PvP. I'm talking Seltzer and Friedberg levels of shallow parody.

I mean sure, advertising and merchandising will get you a good head start, but consumers (including young me) can't be that blind to the faults in these games, right?



Right?

 

[Worldie]

I mean sure, advertising and merchandising will get you a good head start, but consumers (including young me) can't be that blind to the faults in these games, right?

Allow me to introduce you to todays AAA market....

 

[CPU]

To be fair, most Dragon-types aren't stereotypical dragons to begin with. It's more of a "Dinosaur" type than a Dragon-type.

Are they really, though? That mostly applies to the pseudo-legendaries, i feel, but even then I don't think it's super accurate.

long, possibly faulty analyses of all Dragon Types

Dratini line: inspired by sea serpents and general mythological dragons (not sure if Dragonite has a specific inspiration)
Horsea line: sea horses, specifically the weedy sea dragon
(Charmander line: mythological salamanders and western dragons/kaiju)
(Alolan Exeggutor: the Dracaena genus, palm trees, and the Jinmenju)
(Mareep line: sheep/lighthouses)
Swablu line: chinese bird of myth, according to bulbapedia, and possibly other miscellaneous sources
Trapinch line: Antlions and their visually-similar-to-dragonflies adult forms
Bagon line: traditional dragon myths
Latis: Jets
Rayquaza: Ziz from Jewish mythology, Chinese puppets, and possibly other myths like ouroboros/quetzalcoatl
Gible line: Hammerhead sharks, airplanes, and yeah, probably some dino in here
Creation trio: I think their Dragon typing is more to reinforce their status as myths than as a specific inspiration
Axew line: Axes and dinosaurs
Druddigon: Gargoyles, maybe some dino but it's probably a side-effect of it being Dragon-Type
Deino line: Probably a little dino in the early stages (hah), but eventually takes inspiration from the Hydra, King Ghidorah, and it retains remnants as its time as a tank dragon.
Tao trio: Again, more of a vehicle to show their legendary status and power. Definitely take more dino-like aspects than the Creation trio, though.
Skrelp line: Leafy sea dragons
Tyrunt line: It's a fossil and blatantly a T. Rex. You got me here.
Goomy line: Slugs and the Lou Carcolh (also, apparently, a yokai called the "shussebora")
Noibat: Bats, sound in general, and wyverns (and yeah, a little pterosaur)
Zygarde: Flatworms, dogs, and giants; as a whole, various Norse mythological figures, especially nidhoggr
Turtonator: Mata mata turtles and explosions
Drampa: Eastern dragons and old men
Jangmo-o line: Definitely some dino in this one, along with tribal warriors and a general scale theme.
Guzzlord: garbage disposals, black holes, and a general kaiju vibe.
Necrozma: Prisms and western dragons
Applin line: Apples, and worms in apples.
Draco fossils: Again, fossils that are Dragon-Type. Clearly dinos.
Duraludon: Kaiju, duralumin, and skyscrapers
Dreepy line: Diplocaulus and fighter jets
Eternatus: not sure, possibly a dragon-shaped comet seen by King Arthur's father? The beast in Revelation???

Pokémon's Dragons are all over the place, but I don't think having dinosaur-like features is really more common than, say, mythological dragon features.

On another note, I LOVED the Pokéradar and Gen 5's shaking grass spots.

 

[DreamPrince]

Are they really, though? That mostly applies to the pseudo-legendaries, i feel, but even then I don't think it's super accurate.

long, possibly faulty analyses of all Dragon Types

Dratini line: inspired by sea serpents and general mythological dragons (not sure if Dragonite has a specific inspiration)
Horsea line: sea horses, specifically the weedy sea dragon
(Charmander line: mythological salamanders and western dragons/kaiju)
(Alolan Exeggutor: the Dracaena genus, palm trees, and the Jinmenju)
(Mareep line: sheep/lighthouses)
Swablu line: chinese bird of myth, according to bulbapedia, and possibly other miscellaneous sources
Trapinch line: Antlions and their visually-similar-to-dragonflies adult forms
Bagon line: traditional dragon myths
Latis: Jets
Rayquaza: Ziz from Jewish mythology, Chinese puppets, and possibly other myths like ouroboros/quetzalcoatl
Gible line: Hammerhead sharks, airplanes, and yeah, probably some dino in here
Creation trio: I think their Dragon typing is more to reinforce their status as myths than as a specific inspiration
Axew line: Axes and dinosaurs
Druddigon: Gargoyles, maybe some dino but it's probably a side-effect of it being Dragon-Type
Deino line: Probably a little dino in the early stages (hah), but eventually takes inspiration from the Hydra, King Ghidorah, and it retains remnants as its time as a tank dragon.
Tao trio: Again, more of a vehicle to show their legendary status and power. Definitely take more dino-like aspects than the Creation trio, though.
Skrelp line: Leafy sea dragons
Tyrunt line: It's a fossil and blatantly a T. Rex. You got me here.
Goomy line: Slugs and the Lou Carcolh (also, apparently, a yokai called the "shussebora")
Noibat: Bats, sound in general, and wyverns (and yeah, a little pterosaur)
Zygarde: Flatworms, dogs, and giants; as a whole, various Norse mythological figures, especially nidhoggr
Turtonator: Mata mata turtles and explosions
Drampa: Eastern dragons and old men
Jangmo-o line: Definitely some dino in this one, along with tribal warriors and a general scale theme.
Guzzlord: garbage disposals, black holes, and a general kaiju vibe.
Necrozma: Prisms and western dragons
Applin line: Apples, and worms in apples.
Draco fossils: Again, fossils that are Dragon-Type. Clearly dinos.
Duraludon: Kaiju, duralumin, and skyscrapers
Dreepy line: Diplocaulus and fighter jets
Eternatus: not sure, possibly a dragon-shaped comet seen by King Arthur's father? The beast in Revelation???

Pokémon's Dragons are all over the place, but I don't think having dinosaur-like features is really more common than, say, mythological dragon features.

On another note, I LOVED the Pokéradar and Gen 5's shaking grass spots.

Dialga and Palkia are based off Sauropod and Theropods, while Giratina has dinosaur inspiration as well. Origin form is probably based off a serpent. Necrozma draws inspiration from a Hawaiian Draconic God. Applin’s line may also be a play on the wyrm. Keep in mind that when they discovered Dinosaurs, they were thought to be dragon bones, so I don’t blame people for having the idea that Dinosaur = Dragon. That history may explain Dracovish and Dracozolt’s typing.

 

[CPU]

Dialga and Palkia are based off Sauropod and Theropods, while Giratina has dinosaur inspiration as well. Origin form is probably based off a serpent. Necrozma draws inspiration from a Hawaiian Draconic God. Applin’s line may also be a play on the wyrm. Keep in mind that when they discovered Dinosaurs, they were thought to be dragon bones, so I don’t blame people for having the idea that Dinosaur = Dragon. That history may explain Dracovish and Dracozolt’s typing.

I guess that's fair with palkia/dialga.

I just basically wanted to point out that "Dragon Type = Dinosaur attributes" isn't really always accurate with Pokémon.

 

[Suspicious Derivative]

I wanted to make a post here to summarize all of my unpopular opinions about HG/SS. These games are almost universally praised and they don't get anywhere near enough of the criticism they deserve, so I'm going to give them some of it. I have posted most of these unpopular opinions in various posts earlier in this thread, but there are also some new ones that I have never posted here before. I have been thinking about making a post like this for a while, but I had originally decided to not make it since it felt pointless. So why am I doing it now? Because of a discussion I had with Yung Dramps a while ago. He encouraged me and convinced me to do this, so I want to give my thanks to him for that.

To start with, I disliked the following Pokémon feature in HG/SS. It was horribly executed, added nothing to the gameplay, slowed down the games and couldn't be turned off. It made my Pokémon feel more like slaves than friends or companions. There was nothing I liked about it. I have written a somewhat longer post regarding my thoughts about it here, decided to link to it instead of copypasting it into this post. Though there is one thing I should expand on that I didn't mention in that post. One more reason as for why I really dislike how the following Pokémon is constantly moving is that it seems to steal my attention and makes it hard for me to focus on other things in the game when my player character is standing still. On the whole, the following Pokémon is one of my least favorite features in the series, it was my very least favorite feature before Gen 7. I'm very happy that it has not been featured in any other main series except LGP/E (which I didn't play, though it seems to have been way better executed there from what I have understood). I hope this feature never returns in any proper Pokémon game in the future.

I'm not sure if this is unpopular, but it is at least an opinion I don't think I have seen posted anywhere in this thread before. I thought the trainer rematch system in HG/SS was really bad. It is actually my biggest issue with HG/SS, I consider it to be a bigger problem than the level curve, the Pokémon distribution or anything else in these games. So perhaps that's another unpopular opinion? The bad rematch system was also the reason as for why it took me five years before I finally got around to completing the Pokédex in HG/SS. I have often talked about it here on the forums before, I prefer to label it "the lack of training spots", though I suppose that is a bit incorrect since training spots do exist in the games, they are just very poorly executed. This is something I don't think the games get enough criticism for. I occasionally see people complain about having problems training in games with great training spots, yet everyone is apparently okay with this awful system in HG/SS? Personally, I couldn't stand it. First you had to receive the numbers from trainers, then you had to call them on specific times in order to get a rematch (and you can't be on the same route as the trainer in question when you call them since it won't work unless you are on a different route) and only after having gone through all that you can walk up to the trainer and talk to them in order to start a battle. I thought it was way too unnecessarily overcomplicated compared to the simpler means of training spots and trainer rematches that exist in other modern games. The Gym Leader rematches suffered from the same issue since they were also tied to this awful system with an added complication as you first had to find the Gym Leader at a specific time and place in order to get their number. I think this is one of the worst rematch systems in the series, I prefer the better systems in the better games, like the PokéNav and Secret Bases in the Hoenn games, the VS. Seeker in FR/LG and D/P/P, the Nimbasa Stadiums and Black Tower/White Treehollow in the Unova games, and the Battle Chateau in X/Y.

I thought the touch screen controls and menus in HG/SS were poorly done and not really worthy of any praise. They were very badly executed. I got enthusiastic at first since I thought it could be great like in other DS games I had played which made great use of the touch screen, but once I tried them in HG/SS, I found them to be really poorly done. They were slow and chunky, they slowed down everything regarding menus and selections. They were also very forced, it was hard to use the menus with the buttons like in other Pokémon games. The way the box system worked in HG/SS was really terrible as well, it did not utilize the touch screen controls well at all. I think the box system in HG/SS is the most inconvenient one in the series since the introduction of the new box system in R/S, the way it worked in HG/SS was beyond awful. I'm glad the Gen 5/6/7 games improved upon the touch screen controls for the menus and the boxes because it became really great in the end, it just had a very rough start.

I have never cared much for Silver as a rival or a character. I think his "character development" is massively overhyped. It is too little, too late, and way too much of it happens off-screen, notably some very interesting things that it would have been great if they actually showed the player, such as Silver trying to return his starter Pokémon to Professor Elm. I never really felt that Silver changed at any point during the game, I thought he was still too much of a jerk even during the post-game. I think he is a considerably less interesting rival than a majority of the other rivals, many who which have actual growth throughout their games. Silver is my second least favorite rival in the series, beaten only by Blue who I think is worse since he is literally just a jerk with no character development at all. I am also not a fan of jerk rivals in general if that wasn't obvious already, I prefer friendly rivals. Bede is the closest the series has gotten to a good jerk rival, but I think he could have been handled better too.

Not sure if this is unpopular, but I think the Johto games weren't all that great in terms of being sequels. While they did make Kanto different in many ways, it was not always for the better. To me, they never really felt like true sequels in the same way that B2/W2 did. I also don't like how they included Red in the games as an NPC. It just feels wrong because he is not really an NPC, he is supposed to be you - the player from the Kanto games. This might have worked if they have had some sort of Memory Link like in B2/W2, but since they didn't, it didn't work. In comparison, I think B2/W2 were much better when it came to being sequels. Apart from everything they had from the base game, they also had Memory Link which allowed you to see some flashback scenes, they also included the name you gave to your player character from B/W, which was amazing. You also never actually got to meet the player from the previous game, you just heard about them, which I prefer over meeting them as a silent NPC like Red. I'm also annoyed at how HG/SS featured Red but not Green/Leaf from FR/LG, I think she should have appeared as well alongside Red. I can kind of forgive G/S/C for failing at being sequels since they were supposed to be the last Pokémon games and they were still an early installment in the series, but HG/SS can't be forgiven because they had an excellent opportunity to improve upon this mistake from the originals, but they failed.

I said this rather recently in another post, but I'll say it again: I think HG/SS gets way too much credit for "keeping everything from Crystal", something they don't really deserve. Aside from the story parts, everything they kept from Crystal were either minor things, features that became standard in the series after Crystal had introduced them, or features that were standard in the series when HG/SS were released. And one important thing from Crystal that they didn't keep was the changes Crystal made to the Pokémon distribution, which is a shame since that is a big and important thing that would have made HG/SS better. And even if HG/SS kept "everything" from Crystal, that does not give them an excuse for having some of the biggest gameplay flaws in the series. In comparison, OR/AS often gets a lot of complaints for not keeping everything from Emerald, but I don't mind. I think OR/AS are good games even if they didn't keep everything from Emerald, they have great gameplay and much better executed content which makes them better games on the whole.

Another thing HG/SS often gets credit for which I don't think they deserve is the claim that improved upon G/S/C, which I don't think they did as they did basically nothing to fix the flaws from the originals. I think FR/LG and OR/AS did way more to improve upon their originals compared to what HG/SS did to improve upon G/S/C. HG/SS only did minor improvements at best, which was nowhere near enough to fix any of their massive gameplay issues.

I'm not super happy about how HG/SS copypasted the Platinum Battle Frontier. I'll admit that I have mixed opinions about this on the whole, but I'm definitely not as happy about it as many other fans seem to be. I like Battle Frontiers, but I think they should only appear once a generation at most. I don't mind single facilities being copypasted like the Maison to OR/AS, but copypasting a whole Frontier feels wrong. HG/SS had an excellent opportunity to do something new and innovative in terms of battle facilities, but they didn't. And even so, they could at least have done something to made the Frontier different from Platinum, like having different Frontier Brains, as well as new and different Stat Trainers to team up with in Multi battles. But they didn't, and that's a big shame. I'll give them props for one thing: the fact that they had the Frontier was good for those who wanted to give it a spin but didn't play Platinum. But that's the only thing I can think about that was relatively positive regarding this.

I wasn't very fond of having 2 regions in one game. It could have worked if it had been properly executed, but now it was a big failure because of the poor execution. Johto can't stand on its own because it relies on Kanto for post-game and final bosses, while Kanto is a shadow of its former self from R/B/Y and FR/LG, it feels more like wasteland than an actual region. There isn't a lot to do in Kanto, there's barely any story to motivate you to go through 8 more gyms, while the regular trainers and wild Pokémon are way too weak to give any sort of challenge or good training. The wild Pokémon in Kanto should definitely have been at higher levels, there's no reason you should face wild Pokémon at level 2 right next to the city which has a Gym Leader with a level 60 Pidgeot. In addition to this, Johto and Kanto often get credit for being "non-linear" or "open world", but I found them to be extremely poorly executed regarding this. They can't compare to actual non-linear or open world games, and I'd personally much rather play a game with a linear region that is executed well instead of a non-linear or more open region with a bad execution.

Adding in to the above, another unpopular opinion I have which is partly related is this: I think HG/SS has a lackluster post-game. They often get credit for having a good post-game or even for having the best post-game in the series, but I really disagree with that. They aren't anywhere near the greatness of games that actually have good post-games like B2/W2, Platinum and US/UM. I also think they are worse than other games like B/W, D/P, OR/AS, Emerald, FR/LG, X/Y and S/M. HG/SS didn't have a lot to do, and the few things they had were poorly executed for the most part. Kanto was just plain bad all around with basically no story as well as weak trainers and wild Pokémon. Trainer rematches were poorly executed as I talked about earlier. Completing the Pokédex wasn't very fun because of the bad Pokémon distribution/availability and the lack of good training spots. I didn't find the minigames very enjoyable, and the Battle Frontier was copypasted from Platinum. The Shiny Leaves took me about 20 minutes to complete and it wasn't very fun since I disliked the following Pokémon. The rest were just minor things that made no difference on the whole. The only things I liked were the large amount of legendaries to catch, and how breeding was mostly easier in HG/SS (the negative being that there was no good place to hatch eggs easily, at least I never found such a place). I think HG/SS have a bad post-game on the whole, and I find it massively overrated. I wouldn't say that it is the worst in the series, but if I were to rank the Pokémon games in terms of post-game, HG/SS would be closer to the bottom than the top.

I found the HM requirements in HG/SS to be very annoying, much worse than in the Sinnoh games or in any other games in the series. They were especially annoying when I tried to explore optional areas, such as a certain room in Mt. Mortar which required you to surf over a lot of small ponds over and over in order to get all items, or when you needed cut to access certain Apricorn trees. Another example is how you need Rock Climb in order to reach Red, something that is most likely forcing you to give up a team slot or at the very least a move slot on a team member. That feels like a good example of bad game design if you ask me. In comparison, the amount of HMs never annoyed me that much in the Sinnoh games. I also found it a lot more annoying to withdraw my HM slaves in HG/SS compared to other games just because of the awful box system and poorly utilized touch screen controls.

I always thought HG/SS felt very slow in terms of most things related to their gameplay, much slower than Platinum. While they didn't have any of the annoying delays that D/P suffered from, there were many other things that slowed down the games like the following Pokémon, the HM usage as well as the menus and the touch screen usage. HG/SS always felt slow to me, this was very noticeable when I went back to them after having played the newer games from Gen 5 and on. In comparison, Platinum never felt quite as slow when I went back to playing it after playing the newer games. While Gen 4 is fairly slow on the whole, I thought HG/SS were among the slowest games along with D/P, they were not as fast (relatively speaking) as Platinum.

Let's throw in a positive unpopular opinion in the mix! I really like the Dowsing Machine in HG/SS, I think it is by far the best feature in these games and one of the very few features in them that was properly executed since it actually worked very well. I always used it to look for and find hidden items while playing through these games. I think it is the second best Dowsing Machine in the series (the best one is of course the one in Gen 5). It is a shame that the rest of HG/SS weren't this well executed, it could have helped them a lot.

I talked a little about minigames earlier, so here's an unpopular opinion regarding that. I didn't like the Pokéathlon all that much. I think this is unpopular since it is often praised and many consider it to be their favorite minigame, but I disagree. I thought it was very badly done. A minigame that relies on touch screen usage, and then the touch screen doesn't properly react to your commands... that is basically an instant failure. I thought most of the events weren't very fun, and it often felt like the opponents were ganging up on me instead of making it fair with a split focus on the player and the other opponents. And from what I have understood, it is only because of the Pokéathlon that we got the awful following Pokémon feature, so that's another minus. While I don't think the Pokéathlon is the worst minigame in the series, it is definitely among the worse ones.

I didn't find HG/SS to be that good or impressive in terms of graphics. They often get praise for their graphics, but I disagree. When it comes to the main series games for the DS, I think that the Sinnoh games (Platinum especially) and the Gen 5 games are way more graphically impressive than HG/SS. The Johto remakes do have some pretty-looking overworld areas and some good sprites, but on the whole, I think there is a lot more bad than good. In general, I find them bland and overdesigned. Many areas look the same to me, both routes and caves. There are no real differences between areas, while several areas in Sinnoh and Unova look very different from each other. Several sprites are also really bad compared to the Sinnoh games, I also find the design of grass and trees to be really boring, as well as most caves.

On a similar note, I'm not very fond of the music and the soundtrack in HG/SS. There are some good tracks for sure, but on the whole, the music is not quite as great as in most other Pokémon games. This is mostly notable for a lot of the music in Kanto which I think is very bland and boring, some notable examples are the wild Pokémon and trainer battle themes, the general city music and the standard music used for most routes. I am also not a fan of some of the tracks in Johto such as Goldenrod City (which was one of my favorites in G/S/C, the fact that the remakes ruined it is a big shame), Route 29 and New Bark Town. The soundfont (or what you should call it) is another thing I'm not all that fond of, many sounds and instruments sound very sharp and annoying to me. The same thing happens regarding certain tracks in other Pokémon games too, but I recall being extra annoyed by it in HG/SS. I find the music in HG/SS overrated on the whole, and I think it is below average when it comes to Pokémon soundtracks.

Lastly, and this should be obvious by now, but I wasn't very fond of HG/SS on the whole. They are my least favorite Pokémon games. They have so many issues, all of the above plus a lot of others I haven't mentioned here (since they aren't unpopular). I think HG/SS are massively overhyped and overrated games. When it comes to the things I think are the most important in Pokémon games, they did basically everything wrong and almost nothing right. They also failed for me when it comes to the very most important thing in Pokémon (and video games in general): they weren't fun to play. HG/SS had the potential to be epic, but they blew it all on poorly executed features, bad gameplay and lackluster content. In the end, they are just a big shame. If anyone wonders why I liked G/S/C better, it is mainly because I thought they were at least fun for their time, which I can't say about HG/SS. Maybe that's also an unpopular opinion.

I think those are all of my unpopular opinions about HG/SS, I hope I didn't forget anything. I could have said more on most of these subjects, but I wanted to keep things short. Though I didn't really succeed since this became pretty long in the end. I have also been thinking about making another post in the annoyances thread where I go over every single thing I disliked about HG/SS, including everything I didn't post here. I'm not sure if I'll ever get around to making that post though, I have been thinking about making it for several years but it hasn't happened... yet. And it will probably not happen anytime soon either, but I might try to get it done at some point in the future.

 

[Jerry the great]

I wanted to make a post here to summarize all of my unpopular opinions about HG/SS. These games are almost universally praised and they don't get anywhere near enough of the criticism they deserve, so I'm going to give them some of it. I have posted most of these unpopular opinions in various posts earlier in this thread, but there are also some new ones that I have never posted here before. I have been thinking about making a post like this for a while, but I had originally decided to not make it since it felt pointless. So why am I doing it now? Because of a discussion I had with Yung Dramps a while ago. He encouraged me and convinced me to do this, so I want to give my thanks to him for that.

To start with, I disliked the following Pokémon feature in HG/SS. It was horribly executed, added nothing to the gameplay, slowed down the games and couldn't be turned off. It made my Pokémon feel more like slaves than friends or companions. There was nothing I liked about it. I have written a somewhat longer post regarding my thoughts about it here, decided to link to it instead of copypasting it into this post. Though there is one thing I should expand on that I didn't mention in that post. One more reason as for why I really dislike how the following Pokémon is constantly moving is that it seems to steal my attention and makes it hard for me to focus on other things in the game when my player character is standing still. On the whole, the following Pokémon is one of my least favorite features in the series, it was my very least favorite feature before Gen 7. I'm very happy that it has not been featured in any other main series except LGP/E (which I didn't play, though it seems to have been way better executed there from what I have understood). I hope this feature never returns in any proper Pokémon game in the future.

I'm not sure if this is unpopular, but it is at least an opinion I don't think I have seen posted anywhere in this thread before. I thought the trainer rematch system in HG/SS was really bad. It is actually my biggest issue with HG/SS, I consider it to be a bigger problem than the level curve, the Pokémon distribution or anything else in these games. So perhaps that's another unpopular opinion? The bad rematch system was also the reason as for why it took me five years before I finally got around to completing the Pokédex in HG/SS. I have often talked about it here on the forums before, I prefer to label it "the lack of training spots", though I suppose that is a bit incorrect since training spots do exist in the games, they are just very poorly executed. This is something I don't think the games get enough criticism for. I occasionally see people complain about having problems training in games with great training spots, yet everyone is apparently okay with this awful system in HG/SS? Personally, I couldn't stand it. First you had to receive the numbers from trainers, then you had to call them on specific times in order to get a rematch (and you can't be on the same route as the trainer in question when you call them since it won't work unless you are on a different route) and only after having gone through all that you can walk up to the trainer and talk to them in order to start a battle. I thought it was way too unnecessarily overcomplicated compared to the simpler means of training spots and trainer rematches that exist in other modern games. The Gym Leader rematches suffered from the same issue since they were also tied to this awful system with an added complication as you first had to find the Gym Leader at a specific time and place in order to get their number. I think this is one of the worst rematch systems in the series, I prefer the better systems in the better games, like the PokéNav and Secret Bases in the Hoenn games, the VS. Seeker in FR/LG and D/P/P, the Nimbasa Stadiums and Black Tower/White Treehollow in the Unova games, and the Battle Chateau in X/Y.

I thought the touch screen controls and menus in HG/SS were poorly done and not really worthy of any praise. They were very badly executed. I got enthusiastic at first since I thought it could be great like in other DS games I had played which made great use of the touch screen, but once I tried them in HG/SS, I found them to be really poorly done. They were slow and chunky, they slowed down everything regarding menus and selections. They were also very forced, it was hard to use the menus with the buttons like in other Pokémon games. The way the box system worked in HG/SS was really terrible as well, it did not utilize the touch screen controls well at all. I think the box system in HG/SS is the most inconvenient one in the series since the introduction of the new box system in R/S, the way it worked in HG/SS was beyond awful. I'm glad the Gen 5/6/7 games improved upon the touch screen controls for the menus and the boxes because it became really great in the end, it just had a very rough start.

I have never cared much for Silver as a rival or a character. I think his "character development" is massively overhyped. It is too little, too late, and way too much of it happens off-screen, notably some very interesting things that it would have been great if they actually showed the player, such as Silver trying to return his starter Pokémon to Professor Elm. I never really felt that Silver changed at any point during the game, I thought he was still too much of a jerk even during the post-game. I think he is a considerably less interesting rival than a majority of the other rivals, many who which have actual growth throughout their games. Silver is my second least favorite rival in the series, beaten only by Blue who I think is worse since he is literally just a jerk with no character development at all. I am also not a fan of jerk rivals in general if that wasn't obvious already, I prefer friendly rivals. Bede is the closest the series has gotten to a good jerk rival, but I think he could have been handled better too.

Not sure if this is unpopular, but I think the Johto games weren't all that great in terms of being sequels. While they did make Kanto different in many ways, it was not always for the better. To me, they never really felt like true sequels in the same way that B2/W2 did. I also don't like how they included Red in the games as an NPC. It just feels wrong because he is not really an NPC, he is supposed to be you - the player from the Kanto games. This might have worked if they have had some sort of Memory Link like in B2/W2, but since they didn't, it didn't work. In comparison, I think B2/W2 were much better when it came to being sequels. Apart from everything they had from the base game, they also had Memory Link which allowed you to see some flashback scenes, they also included the name you gave to your player character from B/W, which was amazing. You also never actually got to meet the player from the previous game, you just heard about them, which I prefer over meeting them as a silent NPC like Red. I'm also annoyed at how HG/SS featured Red but not Green/Leaf from FR/LG, I think she should have appeared as well alongside Red. I can kind of forgive G/S/C for failing at being sequels since they were supposed to be the last Pokémon games and they were still an early installment in the series, but HG/SS can't be forgiven because they had an excellent opportunity to improve upon this mistake from the originals, but they failed.

I said this rather recently in another post, but I'll say it again: I think HG/SS gets way too much credit for "keeping everything from Crystal", something they don't really deserve. Aside from the story parts, everything they kept from Crystal were either minor things, features that became standard in the series after Crystal had introduced them, or features that were standard in the series when HG/SS were released. And one important thing from Crystal that they didn't keep was the changes Crystal made to the Pokémon distribution, which is a shame since that is a big and important thing that would have made HG/SS better. And even if HG/SS kept "everything" from Crystal, that does not give them an excuse for having some of the biggest gameplay flaws in the series. In comparison, OR/AS often gets a lot of complaints for not keeping everything from Emerald, but I don't mind. I think OR/AS are good games even if they didn't keep everything from Emerald, they have great gameplay and much better executed content which makes them better games on the whole.

Another thing HG/SS often gets credit for which I don't think they deserve is the claim that improved upon G/S/C, which I don't think they did as they did basically nothing to fix the flaws from the originals. I think FR/LG and OR/AS did way more to improve upon their originals compared to what HG/SS did to improve upon G/S/C. HG/SS only did minor improvements at best, which was nowhere near enough to fix any of their massive gameplay issues.

I'm not super happy about how HG/SS copypasted the Platinum Battle Frontier. I'll admit that I have mixed opinions about this on the whole, but I'm definitely not as happy about it as many other fans seem to be. I like Battle Frontiers, but I think they should only appear once a generation at most. I don't mind single facilities being copypasted like the Maison to OR/AS, but copypasting a whole Frontier feels wrong. HG/SS had an excellent opportunity to do something new and innovative in terms of battle facilities, but they didn't. And even so, they could at least have done something to made the Frontier different from Platinum, like having different Frontier Brains, as well as new and different Stat Trainers to team up with in Multi battles. But they didn't, and that's a big shame. I'll give them props for one thing: the fact that they had the Frontier was good for those who wanted to give it a spin but didn't play Platinum. But that's the only thing I can think about that was relatively positive regarding this.

I wasn't very fond of having 2 regions in one game. It could have worked if it had been properly executed, but now it was a big failure because of the poor execution. Johto can't stand on its own because it relies on Kanto for post-game and final bosses, while Kanto is a shadow of its former self from R/B/Y and FR/LG, it feels more like wasteland than an actual region. There isn't a lot to do in Kanto, there's barely any story to motivate you to go through 8 more gyms, while the regular trainers and wild Pokémon are way too weak to give any sort of challenge or good training. The wild Pokémon in Kanto should definitely have been at higher levels, there's no reason you should face wild Pokémon at level 2 right next to the city which has a Gym Leader with a level 60 Pidgeot. In addition to this, Johto and Kanto often get credit for being "non-linear" or "open world", but I found them to be extremely poorly executed regarding this. They can't compare to actual non-linear or open world games, and I'd personally much rather play a game with a linear region that is executed well instead of a non-linear or more open region with a bad execution.

Adding in to the above, another unpopular opinion I have which is partly related is this: I think HG/SS has a lackluster post-game. They often get credit for having a good post-game or even for having the best post-game in the series, but I really disagree with that. They aren't anywhere near the greatness of games that actually have good post-games like B2/W2, Platinum and US/UM. I also think they are worse than other games like B/W, D/P, OR/AS, Emerald, FR/LG, X/Y and S/M. HG/SS didn't have a lot to do, and the few things they had were poorly executed for the most part. Kanto was just plain bad all around with basically no story as well as weak trainers and wild Pokémon. Trainer rematches were poorly executed as I talked about earlier. Completing the Pokédex wasn't very fun because of the bad Pokémon distribution/availability and the lack of good training spots. I didn't find the minigames very enjoyable, and the Battle Frontier was copypasted from Platinum. The Shiny Leaves took me about 20 minutes to complete and it wasn't very fun since I disliked the following Pokémon. The rest were just minor things that made no difference on the whole. The only things I liked were the large amount of legendaries to catch, and how breeding was mostly easier in HG/SS (the negative being that there was no good place to hatch eggs easily, at least I never found such a place). I think HG/SS have a bad post-game on the whole, and I find it massively overrated. I wouldn't say that it is the worst in the series, but if I were to rank the Pokémon games in terms of post-game, HG/SS would be closer to the bottom than the top.

I found the HM requirements in HG/SS to be very annoying, much worse than in the Sinnoh games or in any other games in the series. They were especially annoying when I tried to explore optional areas, such as a certain room in Mt. Mortar which required you to surf over a lot of small ponds over and over in order to get all items, or when you needed cut to access certain Apricorn trees. Another example is how you need Rock Climb in order to reach Red, something that is most likely forcing you to give up a team slot or at the very least a move slot on a team member. That feels like a good example of bad game design if you ask me. In comparison, the amount of HMs never annoyed me that much in the Sinnoh games. I also found it a lot more annoying to withdraw my HM slaves in HG/SS compared to other games just because of the awful box system and poorly utilized touch screen controls.

I always thought HG/SS felt very slow in terms of most things related to their gameplay, much slower than Platinum. While they didn't have any of the annoying delays that D/P suffered from, there were many other things that slowed down the games like the following Pokémon, the HM usage as well as the menus and the touch screen usage. HG/SS always felt slow to me, this was very noticeable when I went back to them after having played the newer games from Gen 5 and on. In comparison, Platinum never felt quite as slow when I went back to playing it after playing the newer games. While Gen 4 is fairly slow on the whole, I thought HG/SS were among the slowest games along with D/P, they were not as fast (relatively speaking) as Platinum.

Let's throw in a positive unpopular opinion in the mix! I really like the Dowsing Machine in HG/SS, I think it is by far the best feature in these games and one of the very few features in them that was properly executed since it actually worked very well. I always used it to look for and find hidden items while playing through these games. I think it is the second best Dowsing Machine in the series (the best one is of course the one in Gen 5). It is a shame that the rest of HG/SS weren't this well executed, it could have helped them a lot.

I talked a little about minigames earlier, so here's an unpopular opinion regarding that. I didn't like the Pokéathlon all that much. I think this is unpopular since it is often praised and many consider it to be their favorite minigame, but I disagree. I thought it was very badly done. A minigame that relies on touch screen usage, and then the touch screen doesn't properly react to your commands... that is basically an instant failure. I thought most of the events weren't very fun, and it often felt like the opponents were ganging up on me instead of making it fair with a split focus on the player and the other opponents. And from what I have understood, it is only because of the Pokéathlon that we got the awful following Pokémon feature, so that's another minus. While I don't think the Pokéathlon is the worst minigame in the series, it is definitely among the worse ones.

I didn't find HG/SS to be that good or impressive in terms of graphics. They often get praise for their graphics, but I disagree. When it comes to the main series games for the DS, I think that the Sinnoh games (Platinum especially) and the Gen 5 games are way more graphically impressive than HG/SS. The Johto remakes do have some pretty-looking overworld areas and some good sprites, but on the whole, I think there is a lot more bad than good. In general, I find them bland and overdesigned. Many areas look the same to me, both routes and caves. There are no real differences between areas, while several areas in Sinnoh and Unova look very different from each other. Several sprites are also really bad compared to the Sinnoh games, I also find the design of grass and trees to be really boring, as well as most caves.

On a similar note, I'm not very fond of the music and the soundtrack in HG/SS. There are some good tracks for sure, but on the whole, the music is not quite as great as in most other Pokémon games. This is mostly notable for a lot of the music in Kanto which I think is very bland and boring, some notable examples are the wild Pokémon and trainer battle themes, the general city music and the standard music used for most routes. I am also not a fan of some of the tracks in Johto such as Goldenrod City (which was one of my favorites in G/S/C, the fact that the remakes ruined it is a big shame), Route 29 and New Bark Town. The soundfont (or what you should call it) is another thing I'm not all that fond of, many sounds and instruments sound very sharp and annoying to me. The same thing happens regarding certain tracks in other Pokémon games too, but I recall being extra annoyed by it in HG/SS. I find the music in HG/SS overrated on the whole, and I think it is below average when it comes to Pokémon soundtracks.

Lastly, and this should be obvious by now, but I wasn't very fond of HG/SS on the whole. They are my least favorite Pokémon games. They have so many issues, all of the above plus a lot of others I haven't mentioned here (since they aren't unpopular). I think HG/SS are massively overhyped and overrated games. When it comes to the things I think are the most important in Pokémon games, they did basically everything wrong and almost nothing right. They also failed for me when it comes to the very most important thing in Pokémon (and video games in general): they weren't fun to play. HG/SS had the potential to be epic, but they blew it all on poorly executed features, bad gameplay and lackluster content. In the end, they are just a big shame. If anyone wonders why I liked G/S/C better, it is mainly because I thought they were at least fun for their time, which I can't say about HG/SS. Maybe that's also an unpopular opinion.

I think those are all of my unpopular opinions about HG/SS, I hope I didn't forget anything. I could have said more on most of these subjects, but I wanted to keep things short. Though I didn't really succeed since this became pretty long in the end. I have also been thinking about making another post in the annoyances thread where I go over every single thing I disliked about HG/SS, including everything I didn't post here. I'm not sure if I'll ever get around to making that post though, I have been thinking about making it for several years but it hasn't happened... yet. And it will probably not happen anytime soon either, but I might try to get it done at some point in the future.

Now, that is one long fucking post, so I skipped out on a lot of it, so if I miss anything, then understand I don't have the patience to read such long posts. But! Yes, I'll gladly admit it received too much praise. Now yes, sure it has the battle against Red, which you may already know how I feel about that (but in case you don't, I'll just say the battle with Red in HGSS is my favorite in the entire series) but yeah I'll admit, revisiting Kanto and Follower Pokemon are way overhyped. People treat it like it's the best things ever, but I could care less about both. Anyways, I made this post as a way this stuff you find bad could've been made a lot better. Anyways, I'll explain this like the way I explained why I felt Diamond and Pearl were better than gen 8 where I'll have dots and spaces. Here we go!

• Make it to where you have the option to turn follower Pokemon off

• Have it to where you can register all Gym Leaders phone numbers right at their gym after getting Rock Climb at any time on any day, and have the phone system for regular trainers be like the vs seeker for much quicker training and have it to where all the trainers that give items and stuff give them daily

• Sorry, but I cannot say ANYTHING about Silver. I agree with most of your unpopular opinions (such as poor level curves, bad training options, following Pokemon contributing nothing, ect) but that's why I'm making this post, because a lot of your points I fully agree with, and ways I feel as if I feel as if they could've been executed better. However, I freaking love the Jerk rivals and wish GF still regularly made them. So I'll make this clear: I understand this is an unpopular opinion thread, and I accept your opinions! There is no such thing as you not being allowed to speak your mind on games. In fact, I'm glad you even mentioned this about Silver despite me thinking he's such a great rival! And Yung Dramps, if you're reading this, thank you for motivating this user to make this post.

• Give more options to the post game besides Kanto and the Battle frontier... And give the battle Frontier entirely new people to control them and entirely different options!

• And lastly, for the last one I actually bothered to read (sorry if me mentioning this for the second time sounds offensive because I REALLY don't mean for it to): Instead of you waiting to have all 16 badges you can get to have the item to play retro music, make it an option in the settings right from the beginning

Also, why do we need Kanto in this game anyways? If we want to Experience Kanto at it's finest, why not play FRLG or RBY?

Edit: Also I have one huge major issue with Neo Team Rocket, which is minus designs, they haven't really been much improved. And I can tell from the games RIGHT before it they know how to make an evil team now. They gave the executives their own individual design, but that's it. The whole point of a remake is to improve upon the originals, right? Then why does Proton in his second battle still have only one Raticate and Golbat, Archer still not have his koffing be a weezing, and Proton HAVE 5 KOFFINGS AND A WEEZING?!?! I swear, the last one goes too far for me! Especially considering in the previous battle he had an actual team! A remake is a remake for a reason! You could've given Proton an extra Pokemon or two, evolved Archer's koffing into a weezing, and given Proton more than just a bunch of koffings!

Edit 2: Just thought I'd say I only mentioned the GB sounds because you said the music sucked and I was just getting my opinion out on my first edit because I couldn't resist

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Disclaimer: I have only ever played Emerald, and that was many years ago, so I'm speaking only from a theoretical perspective.

To start with, I disliked the following Pokémon feature in HG/SS. It was horribly executed, added nothing to the gameplay, slowed down the games and couldn't be turned off. It made my Pokémon feel more like slaves than friends or companions. There was nothing I liked about it. I have written a somewhat longer post regarding my thoughts about it here, decided to link to it instead of copypasting it into this post. Though there is one thing I should expand on that I didn't mention in that post. One more reason as for why I really dislike how the following Pokémon is constantly moving is that it seems to steal my attention and makes it hard for me to focus on other things in the game when my player character is standing still. On the whole, the following Pokémon is one of my least favorite features in the series, it was my very least favorite feature before Gen 7. I'm very happy that it has not been featured in any other main series except LGP/E (which I didn't play, though it seems to have been way better executed there from what I have understood). I hope this feature never returns in any proper Pokémon game in the future.

If following Pokemon in HGSS is really that slow, then I can understand why you'd feel the games would be better without it. That said, hoping the feature never returns seems a bit much. I think all it needs is an option to turn it off. Taking measures to make it less clunky and slow would of course be amazing, but even if it slows the game to a crawl, having your favorite Pokemon follow you around is an inherently charming idea. In general, I'm in the camp of giving players as many options as possible when it comes to stuff like this. The people who don't mind slowing the game down a bit can pretend to be Ash, while the players who are bothered by the slowdown can simply turn it off.

I have never cared much for Silver as a rival or a character. I think his "character development" is massively overhyped. It is too little, too late, and way too much of it happens off-screen, notably some very interesting things that it would have been great if they actually showed the player, such as Silver trying to return his starter Pokémon to Professor Elm. I never really felt that Silver changed at any point during the game, I thought he was still too much of a jerk even during the post-game. I think he is a considerably less interesting rival than a majority of the other rivals, many who which have actual growth throughout their games. Silver is my second least favorite rival in the series, beaten only by Blue who I think is worse since he is literally just a jerk with no character development at all. I am also not a fan of jerk rivals in general if that wasn't obvious already, I prefer friendly rivals. Bede is the closest the series has gotten to a good jerk rival, but I think he could have been handled better too.

I have no inherent preference of jerk rival vs nice rival, but there is one thing about Blue that I think was executed incredibly well. You've toppled the Elite 4, Lance begins to congratulate you on becoming the champion, only to pull a "lol jk there's a fifth trainer you have to fight, and it's that guy you hate". In my opinion, Kanto, Alola, and Galar are the only regions to get the finale right. The precedent of a known "Elite 4 + Champion" is a dumb one, because it might as well just be called "Elite 5". Kanto and Alola buck the trend by pretending to not have champion before pulling the rug out from under you at the last minute, though I think Kanto does it a bit better because the stronger emotional response. You go from "that son of a bitch!" to finally giving Blue his comeuppance and wiping his smug grin off his face. Compare that to a mentor's final test or one final battle with your bud. Sportsmanship aside, it's much more satisfying to say "damn right I'm better than you, Blue" than it is to say "gg wp Hau". And obviously Galar bucks the trend in the opposite direction.

I guess what I'm saying is that asshole rivals are great if the game delivers on the payoff of finally putting them in their place. The best way to use a friendly rival would probably be to have them help you in the climax, though care needs to be taken to avoid them being annoyingly clingy before then. Looking at you, Hop.

[a whole lot of Kanto dragging Johto down]

Kanto is an odd predicament. Some of the issues you laid out seem more like issues with the originals, and while they are definitely issues, I'm not sure how they could have been solved in HGSS. For example, how would you have done the Elite 4 differently?

As for the Kanto postgame, it might have interesting to utilize the dual cartridge capabilities of the DS. Like, if you become the champion in your copy of Fire Red or Leaf Green and plug it into the GBA slot, when you climb Mt. Silver in HGSS, you'll find your Kanto avatar in Red's place, rocking your most recent Hall of Fame team.

I dunno. Having Kanto as a sort of new game plus is certainly a super cool idea on paper, but it's super difficult to make it work in practice.

I don’t understand why people like the quiz gimmick. The questions were very trivial answers that are all personal to a character that we just met. How am I supposed to know whether you like purple or pink? The worst was the final question though. She asks you how old she is, and when you say 70, the right answer, she’s like, “ Aww, you hurt my feelings ! Stat drop! “ Imagine if you got points subtracted on a test even when you got the right answer just because the teacher didn’t like your answer. If the questions were more general knowledge like, “ what games was Fairy Type introduced? “ it would have been more fair and tolerable. But the questions she asks are trivial to the point that they are guessing games.

From my understanding, the quiz has two main appeals.

First, it paints Opal as a mischievous old coot. The age question sounds exactly like something my own grandmother would pull (she's 27 with 63 years of experience), and she is quite the entertaining character.

Second, have any gym leader battles ever had a gimmick like that? Like, there have been a few double battles here and there, but to my knowledge, Opal is the only one to shake up the gameplay in a non-standard way. Hell, it's super rare for gyms in general to shake up the battle mechanics. Aside from Opal's quizzes, there's Kabu's catching competition, and... I think one of Norman's trainers plays under Battle Arena rules? And Brawly's gym arguably counts because its trainers award you with light? I don't feel like going through every gym to check for more, but for the most part, gym puzzles are divorced from the battling, with the battles only serving as check points or punishments for failure.

I guess what I'm saying is that gyms should take inspiration from Frontier facilities. Hey, maybe that could have been a neat way to make the Kanto postgame better. Turn Kanto into functionally a giant Battle Frontier, with each of the eight gyms being the facilities.

 

[greentyphlosion]

I guess what I'm saying is that gyms should take inspiration from Frontier facilities. Hey, maybe that could have been a neat way to make the Kanto postgame better. Turn Kanto into functionally a giant Battle Frontier, with each of the eight gyms being the facilities.

One thing I saw someone suggest on the Bulbagarden forums prior to HGSS's release was bringing back the Sevii Islands by way of the Emerald Frontier (with each facility being on one of the different seven islands - iirc One Island had the Arena, Two Island the Factory, Three Island the Palace, Four Island the Dome, Five Island the Pike, Six Island the Pyramid, and Seven Island the Tower replacing FRLG's Trainer Tower). Was way too far-fetched to ever happen (and I doubt the games had the space for it) but it would have been incredible, especially if the Platinum Frontier was still north of Olivine.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Looks like I created quite a convo! Lemme hop in...

I didn't find HG/SS to be that good or impressive in terms of graphics. They often get praise for their graphics, but I disagree. When it comes to the main series games for the DS, I think that the Sinnoh games (Platinum especially) and the Gen 5 games are way more graphically impressive than HG/SS. The Johto remakes do have some pretty-looking overworld areas and some good sprites, but on the whole, I think there is a lot more bad than good. In general, I find them bland and overdesigned. Many areas look the same to me, both routes and caves. There are no real differences between areas, while several areas in Sinnoh and Unova look very different from each other. Several sprites are also really bad compared to the Sinnoh games, I also find the design of grass and trees to be really boring, as well as most caves.

I think the issue here is less the actual graphics and moreso map design. From footage I've seen I actually think HGSS are very pretty games with some beautiful colors and sprites, it's just that a lack of variety in locations could hamper the appeal (for example the caves look very drab with boring gray colors unlike the bright brown of games like DPP).

Another thing HG/SS often gets credit for which I don't think they deserve is the claim that improved upon G/S/C, which I don't think they did as they did basically nothing to fix the flaws from the originals. I think FR/LG and OR/AS did way more to improve upon their originals compared to what HG/SS did to improve upon G/S/C. HG/SS only did minor improvements at best, which was nowhere near enough to fix any of their massive gameplay issues.

I agree with a lot of the other points you raised or at the very least am neutral/inexperienced on, but this one in particular SPEAKS TO ME, especially as a big fan of ORAS. When you come down to it HGSS added a lot of fun bells and whistles to the original titles, sure, but they didn't fix any of the fundamental problems such as the atrocious level curve. For a premiere example of this, look no further than how HGSS and ORAS handled their respective villain squads. Whereas HGSS Team Rocket basically got nothing aside from superficial appearance changes and names for their very underwhelming executives, ORAS Team Magma and Aqua enjoyed a host of major and minor updates, including:

list

-Everyone from grunts to leaders getting great redesigns
-Admins' personalities changing significantly to make them more memorable
-Koffing/Grimer being added to the two teams' Pokemon roster (admittedly not much but better than what HGSS Team Rocket got)
-Completely rewritten dialogue for Archie and Maxie that SIGNIFICANTLY improved their characterization (in the originals the two leaders shared dialogue making them a lot more generic)
-Encounter themes for both leaders
-Use of Mega Evolution by leaders as well as admins in Delta Episode
-Redemption arcs that extended into the postgame, including having them as assist characters in Multi Battles at the Battle Maison

Now don't get it twisted: They ain't perfect. Their Pokemon selection is still very underwhelming, and honestly if you asked me they dropped the ball with the final Maxie and Archie fights thanks to inexplicably terrible movesets especially for the former. But it's clear that a ton of time and effort was invested into making Team Aqua and Magma stand out more from their original incarnations, and considering the very positive fan response it more than paid off. Same goes for other dudes like Brendan/May, Wally and I guess even Zinnia although she's a new character.

I wasn't very fond of having 2 regions in one game. It could have worked if it had been properly executed, but now it was a big failure because of the poor execution. Johto can't stand on its own because it relies on Kanto for post-game and final bosses, while Kanto is a shadow of its former self from R/B/Y and FR/LG, it feels more like wasteland than an actual region. There isn't a lot to do in Kanto, there's barely any story to motivate you to go through 8 more gyms, while the regular trainers and wild Pokémon are way too weak to give any sort of challenge or good training. The wild Pokémon in Kanto should definitely have been at higher levels, there's no reason you should face wild Pokémon at level 2 right next to the city which has a Gym Leader with a level 60 Pidgeot. In addition to this, Johto and Kanto often get credit for being "non-linear" or "open world", but I found them to be extremely poorly executed regarding this. They can't compare to actual non-linear or open world games, and I'd personally much rather play a game with a linear region that is executed well instead of a non-linear or more open region with a bad execution.

Hit the nail on the head here as well. I've always stood by the fact Johto was essentially gimped to make way for the Kanto stuff, including being a huge culprit behind the aforementioned terrible level curve since they had to scale everything down to fit the Kanto Gym roster and other bosses without reaching absurdly high levels. Coupled with the seemingly mediocre payoff and yeah, it was probably not worth it. But seriously, people complain about Alola having too much Kanto tie-in stuff, but Johto is so swamped by it it has basically no real identity of its own with the potential threads of one like the legendary role being cast to the wayside.

 

[Suspicious Derivative]

• Make it to where you have the option to turn follower Pokemon off

• Have it to where you can register all Gym Leaders phone numbers right at their gym after getting Rock Climb at any time on any day, and have the phone system for regular trainers be like the vs seeker for much quicker training and have it to where all the trainers that give items and stuff give them daily

• Sorry, but I cannot say ANYTHING about Silver. I agree with most of your unpopular opinions (such as poor level curves, bad training options, following Pokemon contributing nothing, ect) but that's why I'm making this post, because a lot of your points I fully agree with, and ways I feel as if I feel as if they could've been executed better. However, I freaking love the Jerk rivals and wish GF still regularly made them. So I'll make this clear: I understand this is an unpopular opinion thread, and I accept your opinions! There is no such thing as you not being allowed to speak your mind on games. In fact, I'm glad you even mentioned this about Silver despite me thinking he's such a great rival! And Yung Dramps, if you're reading this, thank you for motivating this user to make this post.

• Give more options to the post game besides Kanto and the Battle frontier... And give the battle Frontier entirely new people to control them and entirely different options!

• And lastly, for the last one I actually bothered to read (sorry if me mentioning this for the second time sounds offensive because I REALLY don't mean for it to): Instead of you waiting to have all 16 badges you can get to have the item to play retro music, make it an option in the settings right from the beginning

Also, why do we need Kanto in this game anyways? If we want to Experience Kanto at it's finest, why not play FRLG or RBY?

Edit: Also I have one huge major issue with Neo Team Rocket, which is minus designs, they haven't really been much improved. And I can tell from the games RIGHT before it they know how to make an evil team now. They gave the executives their own individual design, but that's it. The whole point of a remake is to improve upon the originals, right? Then why does Proton in his second battle still have only one Raticate and Golbat, Archer still not have his koffing be a weezing, and Proton HAVE 5 KOFFINGS AND A WEEZING?!?! I swear, the last one goes too far for me! Especially considering in the previous battle he had an actual team! A remake is a remake for a reason! You could've given Proton an extra Pokemon or two, evolved Archer's koffing into a weezing, and given Proton more than just a bunch of koffings!

I agree with you on all of these except Silver (already mentioned my thoughts on him, not going to do that again). But that's just my opinion, and if you or others disagree, then that's fine.

I never mentioned the GB sounds in my post, and I do honestly not care much for it. While I can sort of agree that it should have been available from the start, it was also a reward for beating all 16 Gyms, so I'm not sure. Either way is fine for me. I guess that's one thing I don't mind about HG/SS.

Why is Kanto in the games? Because HG/SS are remakes of G/S/C, and Kanto was in these games. But why was it in these games? Because they were sequels and the original Johto games (G/S at least) were supposed to be the last games in the series, so they wanted us to re-visit Kanto from the original games. Did we need Kanto in the Johto games? If you ask me, no. Perhaps that's yet another unpopular opinion, but I think that Johto and the Johto games would have been better if they didn't feature Kanto since that would have allowed them to give full focus on Johto instead, something it would have needed.

And I agree that Team Rocket in HG/SS are garbage (though that seems to be a popular opinion, which is why I didn't mention them in my last post). If anything, a possible unpopular opinion is that I liked the situation better in G/S/C because they were unnamed Executives, which made them a bit more interesting and mysterious. If they now choose to give them proper names and designs in the remakes, they really need to go all out and make them memorable instead of just keeping them the way they were in the originals apart from their designs and names.

If following Pokemon in HGSS is really that slow, then I can understand why you'd feel the games would be better without it. That said, hoping the feature never returns seems a bit much. I think all it needs is an option to turn it off. Taking measures to make it less clunky and slow would of course be amazing, but even if it slows the game to a crawl, having your favorite Pokemon follow you around is an inherently charming idea. In general, I'm in the camp of giving players as many options as possible when it comes to stuff like this. The people who don't mind slowing the game down a bit can pretend to be Ash, while the players who are bothered by the slowdown can simply turn it off.

I guess I exaggerated a bit there. I agree that it needs to be optional. And while we're at it, it should have been better executed too. Heck, if they were to give it a better execution, I might even start liking and using it myself. I also agree that making as many things as possible optional is something they should strive to do, I think that's one way to do good game design. Another topic that was recently discussed in this thread is the Exp. Share in Gen 6/7. It is optional, you can choose whether to use it or not, which I think was great. The following Pokémon should have been the same.

I have no inherent preference of jerk rival vs nice rival, but there is one thing about Blue that I think was executed incredibly well. You've toppled the Elite 4, Lance begins to congratulate you on becoming the champion, only to pull a "lol jk there's a fifth trainer you have to fight, and it's that guy you hate". In my opinion, Kanto, Alola, and Galar are the only regions to get the finale right. The precedent of a known "Elite 4 + Champion" is a dumb one, because it might as well just be called "Elite 5". Kanto and Alola buck the trend by pretending to not have champion before pulling the rug out from under you at the last minute, though I think Kanto does it a bit better because the stronger emotional response. You go from "that son of a bitch!" to finally giving Blue his comeuppance and wiping his smug grin off his face. Compare that to a mentor's final test or one final battle with your bud. Sportsmanship aside, it's much more satisfying to say "damn right I'm better than you, Blue" than it is to say "gg wp Hau". And obviously Galar bucks the trend in the opposite direction.

I guess what I'm saying is that asshole rivals are great if the game delivers on the payoff of finally putting them in their place. The best way to use a friendly rival would probably be to have them help you in the climax, though care needs to be taken to avoid them being annoyingly clingy before then. Looking at you, Hop.

I prefer friendly rivals myself, I think that's also an unpopular opinion.

And I disagree about Blue. I didn't find him and his role as the Champion to be very well executed. Though I'll admit that I had been spoiled on the final battle and 95% of the story in the Kanto games before I played them, so it might have had an impact on my experiences and opinions on their story and characters. Either way, I don't see what makes things different with Blue in the final fight. As you play through the game, you have already battled him a bunch of times (and beaten him every time unless you lose the first fight against him). He never changes after any of the battles, he just keeps saying that he's better than you even if he clearly isn't. I'll give you that he is constantly one or several steps ahead of you, but that's it. I wish they had given him some actual character development and making him admit that he isn't better than you, but that never happens. So I never felt any real satisfaction when beating him in the final battle (apart from having beaten the game, of course). Guess another unpopular opinion is that Blue is my least favorite Champion too. I thought Alola handled the "surprise" Champion battle better (even if I had been partly spoiled by it regarding S/M and figured it out when I played US/UM). I didn't mind the other regions/games having a set Champion during their story. Though it was different in B/W, where they changed things by having the real Champion only available after beating the story, while the final battle in the main story was against the antagonists, one of which is technically the Champion at that point. I thought that was great.

And I agree with yout second point, but I have never felt that the games have succeeded with having a great jerk rival. They came close with Bede but as I said before, he could have been done better. As far as friendly rivals go, I prefer them. Especially when they have a bit of development during the game. My favorite is Bianca, but I am also a huge fan of Cheren, Hugh, Barry, Wally, Hau, Gladion, Hop and Marnie. As well as N if you consider him a Rival. They don't need to be involved in the final battle in any way, though it is cool when they are. A potential unpopular opinion here is that I really liked Hop, I consider him to be an ultimate rival but not quite the very best in the series. Definitely my favorite rival from S/S though.

Kanto is an odd predicament. Some of the issues you laid out seem more like issues with the originals, and while they are definitely issues, I'm not sure how they could have been solved in HGSS. For example, how would you have done the Elite 4 differently?

As for the Kanto postgame, it might have interesting to utilize the dual cartridge capabilities of the DS. Like, if you become the champion in your copy of Fire Red or Leaf Green and plug it into the GBA slot, when you climb Mt. Silver in HGSS, you'll find your Kanto avatar in Red's place, rocking your most recent Hall of Fame team.

I dunno. Having Kanto as a sort of new game plus is certainly a super cool idea on paper, but it's super difficult to make it work in practice.

Elite Four? I would have made sure to have a way better level curve and training spots before it, as well as explain what happened to Agatha and Lorelei (why are they nowhere in the games and never mentioned?) and expand on why Koga retired from being a Gym Leader. Also make Karen and Will more interesting. I would also have kept a stonger Elite Four on rematches (but again, with better training spots beforehand), maybe also with different teams for some of the members. I would also have made some sort of big note to the player to challenge the E4 again after beating all the Kanto gyms, and given some really cool reward after beating it a second time. I guess that's it? Not sure why you wanted my ideas on just the Elite Four but I'm happy to share the ideas I have about how HG/SS could have been better.

I agree about utilizing the GBA Slot the DS had, that was something HG/SS didn't do while D/P/P did, which is annoying. They could have used some kind of Memory Link from that, I like your idea about changing Red to making him have your Hall of Fame team from FR/LG, or maybe have it like with Cheren/Bianca in B2/W2 where his team varies depending on the starter you chose in FR/LG. And have Leaf/Green instead of Red if you chose to play as her in FR/LG.

And I agree with your last point. It is a cool idea, but it is hard to make it work properly. But as I have said already, I think it can work, they just need to put a lot more effort into it and make sure it is as good as it can be instead of the half-baked thing we got in the Johto games.

I think the issue here is less the actual graphics and moreso map design. From footage I've seen I actually think HGSS are very pretty games with some beautiful colors and sprites, it's just that a lack of variety in locations could hamper the appeal (for example the caves look very drab with boring gray colors unlike the bright brown of games like DPP).

Fair enough. I guess this is partly what I was trying to say, you just worded it better than me. But I still think there are some sprites that look really bad such as Pinsir, Jolteon, Vaporeon, Scyther and Moltres. Though there are good ones too such as Dragonite and the legendary beasts. I still prefer the sprites in D/P/P and Gen 5 on the whole, though I might be biased.

I agree with a lot of the other points you raised or at the very least am neutral/inexperienced on, but this one in particular SPEAKS TO ME, especially as a big fan of ORAS. When you come down to it HGSS added a lot of fun bells and whistles to the original titles, sure, but they didn't fix any of the fundamental problems such as the atrocious level curve. For a premiere example of this, look no further than how HGSS and ORAS handled their respective villain squads. Whereas HGSS Team Rocket basically got nothing aside from superficial appearance changes and names for their very underwhelming executives, ORAS Team Magma and Aqua enjoyed a host of major and minor updates, including:

list

-Everyone from grunts to leaders getting great redesigns
-Admins' personalities changing significantly to make them more memorable
-Koffing/Grimer being added to the two teams' Pokemon roster (admittedly not much but better than what HGSS Team Rocket got)
-Completely rewritten dialogue for Archie and Maxie that SIGNIFICANTLY improved their characterization (in the originals the two leaders shared dialogue making them a lot more generic)
-Encounter themes for both leaders
-Use of Mega Evolution by leaders as well as admins in Delta Episode
-Redemption arcs that extended into the postgame, including having them as assist characters in Multi Battles at the Battle Maison

Now don't get it twisted: They ain't perfect. Their Pokemon selection is still very underwhelming, and honestly if you asked me they dropped the ball with the final Maxie and Archie fights thanks to inexplicably terrible movesets especially for the former. But it's clear that a ton of time and effort was invested into making Team Aqua and Magma stand out more from their original incarnations, and considering the very positive fan response it more than paid off. Same goes for other dudes like Brendan/May, Wally and I guess even Zinnia although she's a new character.

Yeah, that's another thing I tried to say. The didn't improve upon major issues such as the level curve, the lack of good training spots or the Pokémon distribution. They often get credit for bringing back areas like the Viridian Forest, Cerulean Cave and Seafoam Islands, but what's the point if they are still filled with weak Pokémon and trainers as well as few to no new Pokémon? That's not really improvement in my book. I definitely agree that OR/AS improved not only upon the character designs for the villain teams, but also for important NPCs in general as well as the story and characters on the whole. As you say, they and their improvements aren't perfect, but they are way better than what HG/SS did.

Hit the nail on the head here as well. I've always stood by the fact Johto was essentially gimped to make way for the Kanto stuff, including being a huge culprit behind the aforementioned terrible level curve since they had to scale everything down to fit the Kanto Gym roster and other bosses without reaching absurdly high levels. Coupled with the seemingly mediocre payoff and yeah, it was probably not worth it. But seriously, people complain about Alola having too much Kanto tie-in stuff, but Johto is so swamped by it it has basically no real identity of its own with the potential threads of one like the legendary role being cast to the wayside.

Yeah. Johto definitely suffered from having way too much Kanto and relying on it too much on the whole.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

He never changes after any of the battles, he just keeps saying that he's better than you even if he clearly isn't. I'll give you that he is constantly one or several steps ahead of you, but that's it. I wish they had given him some actual character development and making him admit that he isn't better than you, but that never happens.

He doesn't get much development, though I'd argue that Blue goes through some very subtle development.

All of Blue's defeat dialouge

First encounter (Oak's Lab)

"WHAT? Unbelievable! I picked the wrong Pokémon!"​

"Okay! I'll make my Pokémon fight to toughen it up! Red! Gramps! Smell you later!"​

Blue blames the Pokemon he chose, and not himself for just using random moves.

Second encounter (Route 22)

"Awww! You just lucked out!"​

"I heard Pokémon League has many tough trainers! I have to figure out how to get past them! You should quit dawdling and get a move on!"​

Blue attributes your victory to luck.

Third encounter (Cerulean City)

"Hey! Take it easy! You won already!"​

"Hey, guess what? I went to Bill's and got him to show me his rare Pokémon! That added a lot of pages to my Pokédex! After all, Bill's world famous as a PokéManiac! He invented the Pokémon Storage System on PC! Since you're using his system, go thank him! Well, I better go rolling! Smell ya later!"​

A rare moment of weakness. Blue just wants to brush off your victory, but can't think of a snarky retort.

Fourth encounter (S.S. Anne)

"Humph! At least you're raising your Pokémon!"​

"I heard there was a Cut master on board. But, he was just a seasick, old man! But Cut itself is really useful! You should go see him! Smell ya!"​

Blue sees that you are getting stronger.

Fifth encounter (Pokemon Tower)

"What? You stinker!" I took it easy on you too!"​

"How's your Pokédex coming, pal? I just caught a Cubone! I can't find the grown-up Marowak yet! I doubt there are any left! Well I better get going! I've got a lot to accomplish, pal! Smell ya later!"​

Blue admits he messed up, but doesn't accept that you're actually better than him.

Sixth encounter (Silph Co.)

"Oh ho! So, you are ready for Boss Rocket!"​

"Well, Red! I'm moving on up and ahead! By checking my Pokédex, I'm starting to see what's strong and how they evolve! I'm going to the Pokémon League to boot out the Elite Four! I'll become the world's most powerful trainer! Red, well good luck to you! Don't sweat it! Smell ya!"​

Blue, uh, admits that you're strong. Okay, this scene is so weird. Why is he acting as Giovanni's bouncer?

Seventh encounter (Route 22)

"What!? I was just careless!"​

"That loosened me up! I'm ready for Pokémon League! Red, you need more practice! But hey, you know that! I'm out of here. Smell ya!"​

Like in Pokemon Tower, Blue admits he messed up, but doesn't accept that you're actually better than him. Though in this case, he realizes the messing up wasn't deliberate.

Eighth encounter (Indigo Plateau)

"NO! That can't be! You beat my best! After all that work to become League champ? My reign is over already? It's not fair!"​

"Why? Why did I lose? I never made any mistakes raising my Pokémon… Darn it! You're the new Pokémon League Champion! Although I don't like to admit it."​

Blue is finally realizing that even at his best, he can't beat you. He's also finally realizing that the problem may have been with himself all along, as he wracks his brain for he might have done wrong. Oak then comes along and spells it out for him:

"Red! So, you won! Congratulations! You're the new Pokémon League champion! You've grown up so much since you first left with Charmander! Red, you have come of age! Blue! I'm disappointed! I came when I heard you beat the Elite Four! But, when I got here, you had already lost! Blue! Do you understand why you lost? You have forgotten to treat your Pokémon with trust and love! Without them, you will never become a champ again! Red! You understand that your victory was not just your own doing! The bond you share with your Pokémon is marvelous! Red! Come with me!"

I would say that this is good enough character development for someone who's less of a character and more of a device to build up to a cathartic "Fuck you, I won", but FRLG kinda backpedals with the Sevii Island encounters:

"Hey! Red! What are you doing here in the Sevii Islands? You should quit copying me, you know? Anyways, I already got my Pokémon Egg so I'm done with this island. Heh, I bet you don't even know about Pokémon Eggs. You'll never fill your National Pokédex that way. By the way, I saw someone we both know on this island. Why don't you go look around if it makes you curious? Me, I don't have time to waste. Be smelling ya!"​

​

"Hey, Red! How's your Pokédex filling up? It looks like it's impossible to get all the Pokémon by hanging around just these parts. Maybe there are Pokémon we don't know about somewhere far away… … … … … … … … … … Well, if I can't do it, there's no way for you to get it done. I'm not going to get all desperate over this. I'll keep collecting Pokémon at my own pace while I train them. That's what I'll do. So there's no point staying here. I may as well leave for home. That's that, then! Smell ya later!" ​

At least he mellowed with age, as his appearances in Johto, Unova, Alola, and Let's Go paint him in a much better light. He's still very confident in himself, and even a little cocky, but he's someone who's more concerned with enjoying tough Pokemon battles than actually being the best. A bit of a Blood Knight. Not only do I just generally find that character archetype fun, but I find it especially enjoyable in the context of Pokemon, where the main reason I still care about the franchise is because the PvP is so incredible.

Elite Four? I would have made sure to have a way better level curve and training spots before it, as well as explain what happened to Agatha and Lorelei (why are they nowhere in the games and never mentioned?) and expand on why Koga retired from being a Gym Leader. Also make Karen and Will more interesting. I would also have kept a stonger Elite Four on rematches (but again, with better training spots beforehand), maybe also with different teams for some of the members. I would also have made some sort of big note to the player to challenge the E4 again after beating all the Kanto gyms, and given some really cool reward after beating it a second time. I guess that's it? Not sure why you wanted my ideas on just the Elite Four but I'm happy to share the ideas I have about how HG/SS could have been better.

One of the gripes you mentioned in passing was that Johto doesn't have its own Elite 4.

Johto can't stand on its own because it relies on Kanto for post-game and final bosses

A good portion of your complaints of HGSS was related to how Johto relies too heavily on Kanto, but because many of those issues were pretty heavily baked into the originals, I was curious what you thought could have been done to remedy the issue in HGSS. That's all.

 

[Suspicious Derivative]

He doesn't get much development, though I'd argue that Blue goes through some very subtle development.

I see. Well, fair enough. I guess it is just too little and too subtle for my tastes.

I have some ideas for how I would improve upon Blue's character and character development if there were to be a proper Kanto re-remake in the future, but I'm not sure how relevant it is so I'll keep it to myself unless someone wants to hear about it.

At least he mellowed with age, as his appearances in Johto, Unova, Alola, and Let's Go paint him in a much better light. He's still very confident in himself, and even a little cocky, but he's someone who's more concerned with enjoying tough Pokemon battles than actually being the best. A bit of a Blood Knight. Not only do I just generally find that character archetype fun, but I find it especially enjoyable in the context of Pokemon, where the main reason I still care about the franchise is because the PvP is so incredible.

I also liked Blue better in the Johto, Unova and Alola games (haven't played Let's Go so no opinion there). I think the fact that he actually had character is a good trait in those games because he is found alongside Red who has literally no character at all as an NPC.

And I kind of like such character archetypes too, they are fun if they are done correctly.

One of the gripes you mentioned in passing was that Johto doesn't have its own Elite 4.

A good portion of your complaints of HGSS was related to how Johto relies too heavily on Kanto, but because many of those issues were pretty heavily baked into the originals, I was curious what you thought could have been done to remedy the issue in HGSS. That's all.

I realized after making my previous post that I had mentioned the E4 in my first post, but forgotten about it while writing my reply. So I'm sorry if I was a bit blunt in my previous post. I felt so stupid afterwards when I made this realization.

Either way, I think I partly answered your question already (how would I have improved the E4 in HG/SS while still being mostly faithful to G/S/C), but one thing I forgot to mention was that if I had been in charge of HG/SS, I would have done a Regional Pokédex revamp or at least an expansion as well as give more focus on the Johto Pokémon. With this, I would have altered the teams of the E4 and Lance on the first battles against them, not only during their rematches. For instance, I would have given Karen a Sneasel/Weavile and maybe a Tyranitar instead of Vileplume and Gengar, as well as a Kingdra to Lance. Why doesn't he have one in the actual Johto games? That's a mystery. Yes, it was Clair's ace Pokémon but that doesn't mean Lance can't have one too as a regular member of his team. And I would have given him some other dragons too. He doesn't need to have a full Dragon-type team but more than three Dragonite at least, one or two of his Gyarados/Charizard/Aerodactyl can be removed. Probably Aerodactyl first and foremost, it is the least "Dragon-like" out of those three IMO.

But I should clarify on one thing. When I said "I wasn't very fond of having 2 regions in one game", I meant in both G/S/C and HG/SS. So I guess an alternate question could be how I would have handled the E4 better in G/S/C and how that would have carried over to HG/SS. And the answer to that is that... I'm not really sure. But I can think of two alteratives. The first one is to not include Kanto in the Johto games at all (or make it 100% post-game) and have Johto have an Elite Four and Champion of its own, not sure where it would be located though. Maybe west of Cianwood (close to the Safari Zone in HG/SS), above or around Mt. Silver (maybe even have Mt. Silver as the Pokémon League itself? At least partly) or north/northwest of Routes 38/39. And if Kanto was still in the games, it could have had it's own Elite Four as well. As said, I think the 2-region system can work, it just needs a better execution. The second alternative could have been to make a completely new and original Elite Four for Johto but have it at the Indigo Plateau in Kanto, though with new trainers. Those would have been Will and Karen as well as two new members and a new Champion. Looking back at this now though, I think I would have preferred the first alternative.

I hope that's a better answer to your question, and sorry about my somewhat crude answer in my last post!

Lastly, somewhat unrelated but it was one thing I thought about and just felt that I needed to say. I am really curious about how the Johto games would have been if the final product had been like the original demo/prototype (the one that was leaked in 2018). Would have it been better or worse? It would at least have been very different, that's for sure.

 

[Moulin Rouge!]

One thing I HATE about HGSS is just how short it is. I managed to beat Red around 30~ hours in. For reference, it took me about 80~ hours to beat BW2 and I think I have 70 hours in my current playthrough of Platinum and I haven't reached the climax at Spear Pillar/ Distortion World yet.

You'd expect a lot more from a game that has "TWO REGIONS!!!!1!!!"

 

[Yung Dramps]

One thing I HATE about HGSS is just how short it is. I managed to beat Red around 30~ hours in. For reference, it took me about 80~ hours to beat BW2 and I think I have 70 hours in my current playthrough of Platinum and I haven't reached the climax at Spear Pillar/ Distortion World yet.

You'd expect a lot more from a game that has "TWO REGIONS!!!!1!!!"

Fully agree on these games being too short, but just out of curiosity how is it taking you upwards of 70 hours to beat other games? Do you squeeze every single bit of side content? Completing the Pokedex?

 

[Zneon]

I personally find Oleana's theme in SWSH to be better than Marnie's and frankly better than every single track in the game, not sure if you guys feel the same, let me know if you do.

 

[Clambats]

I personally find Oleana's theme in SWSH to be better than Marnie's and frankly better than every single track in the game, not sure if you guys feel the same, let me know if you do.

You know what, you right.

I didn’t really notice it the first time around, but listening to it again I kinda love it.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I think the fact that he actually had character is a good trait in those games because he is found alongside Red who has literally no character at all as an NPC.

This got me thinking, and the more I try to read character into Red, the more unsettling he becomes.

Now, making Red mute in reference to his role as a silent protagonist is kinda cute, and in theory he's a good foil to Blue, who is nearly equally as talented, but very charismatic, personable, and extroverted. But like, there's a pretty big difference between being quiet and introverted and being a robot. When you challenge him in Johto's finale, maybe give him two or three lines of dialogue, something like "...... ...... / ...... Sometimes I come out here to clear my head. / ...... ...... / ...... Wanna battle?" When you run into him and Blue in Alola, give them a sort of Phineas and Ferb dynamic. Blue does most of the talking, but Red chimes in once or twice. Or if you're adamant on keeping him completely mute, have him, I don't know, smile occasionally?

Since the beginning, Red and Blue were designed to contrast one another. In Gen 1, Blue only cared about himself. He saw his Pokemon as nothing more than tools, and he didn't concern himself with the plights of others (seriously, why the fuck was he in Silph Co. during the Rocket invasion?). In contrast, Red treated his Pokemon with respect, and lent a hand to those in need. And as Oak explains at the end of the game, this is why Red ultimately succeeded over Blue.

Jump forward to Gen 2. After being knocked down a peg in the last game, Blue seems to have reevaluated himself and became a better man (er, boy? He's like 13 at this point.) He learns to be respectful and sympathetic to the people around him, he finds intrinsic satisfaction in competition instead of relying on the extrinsic satisfaction of victory, and as a result, he finds happiness.

What does this say about Red? What became of the boy who loved his Pokemon and went out of his way to help others? By the time of Gen 2, Red no longer seems to care about helping others, instead choosing to isolate himself from the rest of the world. It's hard to tell if he even still cares about his Pokemon. His Kanto starters know the elemental Hyper Beams in HGSS, which can only be taught to Pokemon with max friendship, but unlike Return or Frustration, this isn't necessarily indicative of their current state. But either way, this is a very different Red than the one we see in Gen 1. What could have caused this? The best case scenario is that the champion's limelight became too stressful for Red to handle, and he fled to Mt. Silver to escape from the public eye. The worst case scenario is that becoming the champion and dethroning Blue corrupted the boy. Just as Blue came to adopt some of G1 Red's traits, Red began to morph into G1 Blue. Power became his only motivation, and being the champion wasn't enough. Red left for Mt. Silver, where he could fully devote himself to becoming stronger, with no one around to slow him down. In this scenario, the setting becomes symbolic of Red's fate. He'll keep training and training until he becomes as strong as he could possibly be, but to what end? He will have made it to the top, but the top is cold and lonely.

Both scenarios are pretty dismal, but if we take the worse to be true, then we have to consider what this says about the player. As the character of Red began as an avatar for the player, his eventual isolation in pursuit of power comes across as a harrowing prophecy from the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come, a grim demonstration of what befalls those who allow the lust for power to consume their life. Most chilling of all, it seems to suggest that the player is already on their way to this hellish fate. Johto puts the player in control of Ethan, and the game concludes with Ethan taking Red's place atop Mt. Silver. At this moment, the player can no longer claim innocence, no longer find comfort in telling themselves that Red would not have ended up like this if they had remained in control. As the game ends and credits role, the player is forced to accept that, through their own autonomy, they have led Ethan to follow in Red's footsteps and take his place at the cold and lonely peak of Mt. Silver.









Fuck, that was depressing. I need something wholesome to help take my mind off this.

Thank you, Maru. I can always count on you to brighten my day.