(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

My issue with Falinks is that it's not Bug/Fighting. Yeah, it's not a caterpillar, but it still has some bug traits.
  • Phalanx is a Greek military tactic, and in Greek mythology, Myrmidons are warriors that were once ants.
  • Since they function as a single unit, they have a hive mind.
  • They get First Impression and Megahorn.
  • There is only 1 Bug/Fighting type. (Heracross) Edit: Forgot funny mosquito and cockroach woman
  • Galar needs less pure Fighting types.
Grapploct is in the same boat, but with Water typing.
 
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Imperial Magala said:
My issue with Falinks is that it's not Bug/Fighting. Yeah, it's not a caterpillar, but it still has some bug traits.
  • Phalanx is a Greek military tactic, and in Greek mythology, Myrmidons are warriors that were once ants.
  • Since they function as a single unit, they have a hive mind.
  • They get First Impression and Megahorn.
  • There is only 1 Bug/Fighting type. (Heracross)
  • Galar needs less pure Fighting types.
Grapploct is in the same boat, but with Water typing.
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Like I get the joke is it is meant to look like a caterpillar but isn't one but I definirtely agree it should have been Fighting/Bug. The joke doesn't hold up as well as it does with Lurantis, who I think is fine not being Bug/Grass.
 
Yung Dramps said:
You fool! How could you forget funny mosquito and cockroach woman
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Silvally made short work of them, did you forget that it made to SnS but not a single UB?

"I see no Beasts up here... Other than me." - Silvally

Also, mistyped mons? Shocker.

Seriously, I think every single one of us can point out at least 5 mons that don't really make sense type-wise.

Heck, I'm pretty sure I can do that just for the Fairy-type.
 
Pikachu315111 said:
Probably can do this with all the Normal-type Pokemon.
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No, seriously, take a look at the Psychic legends. How many should've been retyped to Fairy? Celebi is an honestly absurd example by itself.

That stems from the fact that Fairy isn't really well-defined as a type thematically and it's really obvious on legendaries.

Oh, that reminds me, we really got just Play Rough as the one physical Fairy-move and it's actually silly how strong it is. That means all Fairy mons that actually need early Physical moves need to run special moves off potentially low stats. Granbull, Azumarill, Mawile, Galarian Ponyta (Wait, no.)...
 
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
Oh, that reminds me, we really got just Play Rough as the one physical Fairy-move and it's actually silly how strong it is. That means all Fairy mons that actually need early Physical moves need to run special moves off potentially low stats. Granbull, Azumarill, Mawile, Galarian Ponyta (Wait, no.)...
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Not sure if it would helped some, but I think they should have changed Double Slap and Dizzy Punch into Fairy-type moves.
 
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
No, seriously, take a look at the Psychic legends. How many should've been retyped to Fairy? Celebi is an honestly absurd example by itself.

That stems from the fact that Fairy isn't really well-defined as a type thematically and it's really obvious on legendaries.

Oh, that reminds me, we really got just Play Rough as the one physical Fairy-move and it's actually silly how strong it is. That means all Fairy mons that actually need early Physical moves need to run special moves off potentially low stats. Granbull, Azumarill, Mawile, Galarian Ponyta (Wait, no.)...
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I think Fairy does, on a whole, have a theme to most of its pokemon:
-cute/girly
-often pink
-the occasional "trickster" curveball to keep us on our toes and referencing the tricky nature of fae. Grimmsnarl & Mawile are the most extreme versions of this, but there's also things like Klefki
-slight "nature" twinge to them, but imo in a way that differs from grass pokemon

There are Pokemon I think should have been Fairy themed and there are some retyped Pokemon that surprise me at bothering to make Fairy, but on the whole I think it's no more or less thematic than most other types.
I think the only reason they didn't retype more of them is just them not wanting to go overboard, but still wanting to give fairy a bigger foot in the door than Ghost, Dark & Steel's pitiful first outings.

They also just seemed to not want to touch legendary typings. Some I could see for maybe balance or wanting to keep their flavor but I think general they just...didn't want to retype them at all.


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HEY SO did you know Falinks is in the Fairy egg group? And the Mineral egg group??
I figured it'd be in "Field", "Amorphous" or "Monster".
 
In the other thread we were discussing that some kind of bug energy must exist so there is a normal energy too, the energy of total unremarkableness, that is wild.

Tangela is my pet peeve of mistyped mons, I know it's supposed to be covered in vines, but they are blue and the red shoes don't help its case. It was always the odd man out as the only gen I grass type that isn't poison too which only make it look stranger.

Isn't Psychic type named Esper type in Japan? This could explain some of the incongruencies since Celebi could fit as an Esper, but it would be so much better if they changed it and some of the others to Fairy and create a more widespread physical fairy move.

Is Falinks needed to pass moves to Fairy or Mineral egg group? It's cute so it can be shoehorned in Fairy, but Mineral is a reach.
 
Imperial Magala said:
My issue with Falinks is that it's not Bug/Fighting. Yeah, it's not a caterpillar, but it still has some bug traits.
  • Phalanx is a Greek military tactic, and in Greek mythology, Myrmidons are warriors that were once ants.
  • Since they function as a single unit, they have a hive mind.
  • They get First Impression and Megahorn.
  • There is only 1 Bug/Fighting type. (Heracross) Edit: Forgot funny mosquito and cockroach woman
  • Galar needs less pure Fighting types.
Grapploct is in the same boat, but with Water typing.
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Some more points on this:
  • There's an insect family known as Shield bugs
  • It would give them a fighting resist, which seems decently thematic
  • they would make a great second user of Attack Order (Defend Order is mostly redundant, heal order might be broken with No Retreat)
Fairy egg group makes sense to me, since I can see the physical resemblance to e.g. Chansey. Mineral seems weird since several other "armoured" mons aren't (aron, pawniard, skarmory, tyranitar) and it looks organic underneath the helmets.

Blue glass said:
In the other thread we were discussing that some kind of bug energy must exist so there is a normal energy too, the energy of total unremarkableness, that is wild.
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I think of Normal as what you get when you have 'move/type energy' but don't have one type that dominates, since nearly everything that involves changing between several types ends up leaning towards Normal somewhere and Normal types generally have type-diverse movepools. Most Normal/X mons would be weakly tied to their other element (e.g. wind is a secondary thing for most Normal/Flying types), but some have associations with several (e.g. Heliolisk, whose various weather associations would make it Electric/Fire/Water/Ground).
 
Imperial Magala said:
...Except Falinks is genderless.
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Egg Groups get assigned to all Pokemon even if they're genderless. It's a weird quirk of the egg system.

Oh funnily enough bulbapedia's given some interesting trivia on this: some gen 2 guidebooks and Stadium 2 list a "Gender Unknown" egg group that doesn't actually exist internally.
 
I think something that's important to consider when suggesting retypes is that Game Freak tends to avoid replacing any type except Normal.
True, Rotom's forms did shed Ghost, but they're all alternate forms and Rotom itself is still a Ghost-type Pokémon - I think it's reasonable to draw a line between that and straight-up getting rid of Celebi's Psychic type and leaving no trace of it. (And as much sense as Fairy makes for Celebi, it's also worth noting that Future Sight - a move that has a strong flavor connection to Celebi's time travel powers - is also Psychic, so there's a plausible enough connection there.) No Pokémon except Rotom, but again, not completely has ever been retconned out of a type except Normal, and I think Game Freak wanted to keep it that way.
The real problem is the Lake trio, which exist to keep dragons in check and are named after three different kinds of fairies.

As for what the type actually means... I'm not sure how many people will agree with this, but my interpretation of Fairy includes Pokémon with a few qualities: Pokémon that are defined by their relationship to humans arguably much more so than most - see Gardevoir, Klefki and Mimikyu for examples, Pokémon that are particularly connected and attuned to emotions in general see Togepi, Ralts, Sylveon, Primarina, Cutiefly and Hatterene for examples, and, like R_N said, a fair few of them end up somewhat trickstery or two-faced see Mawile, Whimsicott and Grimmsnarl, often with more than one of these qualities at a time. Emotions in particular seem to be a big one all the more reason why the Lake trio should be Fairy-type....
I might be stretching a bit here - on looking at the actual list, it seems like some of these blur together and some of them might not be as prevalent as I thought - but that's more or less how I've understood the type until now.
It's also pretty common for them to be related to the moon, of course. That's how you get things like Clefairy and Azumarill (moon rabbit), as well as the move Moonblast.

But... for that matter, can we talk about Zacian and Zamazenta? Setting aside whether neither or both deserve to be Fairy-type, what bothers me about them is that Zacian is somehow more Fairy-type than Zamazenta. I'm honestly kind of concerned that Game Freak made it Fairy solely because it's canonically a girl and I resent the implication if so
Honestly, if anything - and I know this is a weird choice, but bear with me - I think I would mind less if they were Fairy/Fighting and Fairy/Steel.
- Fighting is already a type that's been associated with swords as much as Steel (see the Swords of Justice, the move Sacred Sword, and even Sirfetch'd in the very same game), and (seemingly for that reason) Zacian already has a better Fighting movepool than Zamazenta.
- While it might take a bit of stretching (really only some slight tweaks to their Pokédex entries), I think it can also be argued well enough that Zamazenta is "more Steel than Zacian" (at least more easily than "more Fighting than Zacian" or that Zacian is "more Fairy than Zamazenta"), since Steel is so consistently associated with defense and armor.
- As for Fairy, any established Fairy-related quality that could possibly be applied to Zacian is literally exactly the same for Zamazenta: both are connected to the moon (both naturally learn Howl and Moonblast for primarily flavor reasons), both conceal themselves in mist (connected to Fairy through Misty Terrain, Galarian Weezing, Slumbering Weald), both were destined to "slay a dragon" (Eternatus), both were destined to join with human heroes... What about Zacian sets it apart?
- Aside from that, letting Zacian be Fairy/Fighting allows it to be cool and unique like Game Freak clearly wants it's so, so obvious that they had a favorite this time around, while letting Zamazenta be Fairy/Steel gives it something it actually needs in one of the better defensive type combinations in the game.
- also if Zamazenta is the one that's supposed to be a "shield" against Eternatus why is Zacian the one that's immune to both of its STABs

... and okay, ooone more little thing that annoys me. Like I said, it's way too obvious that Game Freak has a lot of favoritism towards Zacian. Consider the following:
- Zacian's Crowned Sword form has an incredibly optimized stat distribution, with +10 Speed (giving it an insanely good Speed tier) and then the remaining 40 added points poured straight into its one important attacking stat. Zamazenta gets -10 Speed (because lowering Speed has a history of making Pokémon better), and since both of its defenses are relevant, it also has to split its stat increases between the two of them.
- Zacian has, statistically speaking, one of the best type combinations in the entire game. Zamazenta actually prefers not to be in its Crowned Shield form because Fighting/Steel is a defensive liability in a metagame surrounded by the specific Ubers Game Freak chose so carefully to carry forward.
- Intrepid Sword gives a free Choice Band-equivalent boost without a Choice lock coming from an already-insane base 170 Attack, so Zacian doesn't even miss any other item for having to hold a Rusted Sword. Zamazenta doesn't even benefit from its Defense boost because it has no recovery.
- Zacian has access to Sacred Sword, a former signature move that's iconically associated with sword Pokémon and essentially nullifies Dauntless Shield outright (as well as being super effective against Zamazenta). Zamazenta does not have access to King's Shield, a signature move that's iconically associated with a shield Pokémon and would effectively nullify Intrepid Sword.
- Zacian learns every Fighting move Zamazenta does and also two Fighting moves Zamazenta would die to have. Every Fighting move Zamazenta can learn has some kind of crippling drawback. The main one it runs, Close Combat, literally defeats its own purpose as the shield Pokémon. Meanwhile, Zamazenta does not get Body Press, the move that was practically made for it-- what, were they afraid it would be broken?
- ... broken like Zacian?
People in Ubers have actually suggested that Zamazenta would be better off moving down to OU - it's just that OU kinda doesn't want it either. It's the bottom of the barrel of banned Pokémon. And Zacian is seemingly designed to one-up Mega Rayquaza in every possible way.
What were they thinking with the balance between this duo??
and they even try to go for a climactic showdown between them like Black and White with the final battle against Hop, and it just makes the Sword bias even more comically exaggerated because of how easily Zacian wins no matter which game it is
 
Hematite said:
I think something that's important to consider when suggesting retypes is that Game Freak tends to avoid replacing any type except Normal.
True, Rotom's forms did shed Ghost, but they're all alternate forms and Rotom itself is still a Ghost-type Pokémon - I think it's reasonable to draw a line between that and straight-up getting rid of Celebi's Psychic type and leaving no trace of it. (And as much sense as Fairy makes for Celebi, it's also worth noting that Future Sight - a move that has a strong flavor connection to Celebi's time travel powers - is also Psychic, so there's a plausible enough connection there.) No Pokémon except Rotom, but again, not completely has ever been retconned out of a type except Normal, and I think Game Freak wanted to keep it that way.
The real problem is the Lake trio, which exist to keep dragons in check and are named after three different kinds of fairies.

As for what the type actually means... I'm not sure how many people will agree with this, but my interpretation of Fairy includes Pokémon with a few qualities: Pokémon that are defined by their relationship to humans arguably much more so than most - see Gardevoir, Klefki and Mimikyu for examples, Pokémon that are particularly connected and attuned to emotions in general see Togepi, Ralts, Sylveon, Primarina, Cutiefly and Hatterene for examples, and, like R_N said, a fair few of them end up somewhat trickstery or two-faced see Mawile, Whimsicott and Grimmsnarl, often with more than one of these qualities at a time. Emotions in particular seem to be a big one all the more reason why the Lake trio should be Fairy-type....
I might be stretching a bit here - on looking at the actual list, it seems like some of these blur together and some of them might not be as prevalent as I thought - but that's more or less how I've understood the type until now.
It's also pretty common for them to be related to the moon, of course. That's how you get things like Clefairy and Azumarill (moon rabbit), as well as the move Moonblast.

But... for that matter, can we talk about Zacian and Zamazenta? Setting aside whether neither or both deserve to be Fairy-type, what bothers me about them is that Zacian is somehow more Fairy-type than Zamazenta. I'm honestly kind of concerned that Game Freak made it Fairy solely because it's canonically a girl and I resent the implication if so
Honestly, if anything - and I know this is a weird choice, but bear with me - I think I would mind less if they were Fairy/Fighting and Fairy/Steel.
- Fighting is already a type that's been associated with swords as much as Steel (see the Swords of Justice, the move Sacred Sword, and even Sirfetch'd in the very same game), and (seemingly for that reason) Zacian already has a better Fighting movepool than Zamazenta.
- While it might take a bit of stretching (really only some slight tweaks to their Pokédex entries), I think it can also be argued well enough that Zamazenta is "more Steel than Zacian" (at least more easily than "more Fighting than Zacian" or that Zacian is "more Fairy than Zamazenta"), since Steel is so consistently associated with defense and armor.
- As for Fairy, any established Fairy-related quality that could possibly be applied to Zacian is literally exactly the same for Zamazenta: both are connected to the moon (both naturally learn Howl and Moonblast for primarily flavor reasons), both conceal themselves in mist (connected to Fairy through Misty Terrain, Galarian Weezing, Slumbering Weald), both were destined to "slay a dragon" (Eternatus), both were destined to join with human heroes... What about Zacian sets it apart?
- Aside from that, letting Zacian be Fairy/Fighting allows it to be cool and unique like Game Freak clearly wants it's so, so obvious that they had a favorite this time around, while letting Zamazenta be Fairy/Steel gives it something it actually needs in one of the better defensive type combinations in the game.
- also if Zamazenta is the one that's supposed to be a "shield" against Eternatus why is Zacian the one that's immune to both of its STABs

... and okay, ooone more little thing that annoys me. Like I said, it's way too obvious that Game Freak has a lot of favoritism towards Zacian. Consider the following:
- Zacian's Crowned Sword form has an incredibly optimized stat distribution, with +10 Speed (giving it an insanely good Speed tier) and then the remaining 40 added points poured straight into its one important attacking stat. Zamazenta gets -10 Speed (because lowering Speed has a history of making Pokémon better), and since both of its defenses are relevant, it also has to split its stat increases between the two of them.
- Zacian has, statistically speaking, one of the best type combinations in the entire game. Zamazenta actually prefers not to be in its Crowned Shield form because Fighting/Steel is a defensive liability in a metagame surrounded by the specific Ubers Game Freak chose so carefully to carry forward.
- Intrepid Sword gives a free Choice Band-equivalent boost without a Choice lock coming from an already-insane base 170 Attack, so Zacian doesn't even miss any other item for having to hold a Rusted Sword. Zamazenta doesn't even benefit from its Defense boost because it has no recovery.
- Zacian has access to Sacred Sword, a former signature move that's iconically associated with sword Pokémon and essentially nullifies Dauntless Shield outright (as well as being super effective against Zamazenta). Zamazenta does not have access to King's Shield, a signature move that's iconically associated with a shield Pokémon and would effectively nullify Intrepid Sword.
- Zacian learns every Fighting move Zamazenta does and also two Fighting moves Zamazenta would die to have. Every Fighting move Zamazenta can learn has some kind of crippling drawback. The main one it runs, Close Combat, literally defeats its own purpose as the shield Pokémon. Meanwhile, Zamazenta does not get Body Press, the move that was practically made for it-- what, were they afraid it would be broken?
- ... broken like Zacian?
People in Ubers have actually suggested that Zamazenta would be better off moving down to OU - it's just that OU kinda doesn't want it either. It's the bottom of the barrel of banned Pokémon. And Zacian is seemingly designed to one-up Mega Rayquaza in every possible way.
What were they thinking with the balance between this duo??
and they even try to go for a climactic showdown between them like Black and White with the final battle against Hop, and it just makes the Sword bias even more comically exaggerated because of how easily Zacian wins no matter which game it is
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It's a bit more subjective than the stuff you listed, but there's also a discrepancy in how cool their signature moves look.


Zacian has its sword double in size, then it leaps at the opponent, makes one big slash, hangs in the air for dramatic effect, then like five more slashes appear out of nowhere as if Zacian slashed so quickly that they're just now showing up (classic cartoon sword stuff) before Zacian finally falls down to the ground and strikes a pose as the target explodes behind it (classic cool guy stuff). Zamazenta has its shield slot into place, then it rams the opponent, and then there's an explosion. I know I'm the one who a few days ago was saying how it isn't fair to directly compare the aesthetics of Zacian and Zamazenta, but like... if they couldn't make a shield attack look cool, why limit it to being an attack? It's a shield. Have Zamazenta's signature move be something like "Max Guard but it also protects your ally" where it forms a massive barrier through presumably the same method that Zacian uses to grows its sword and jams it into the ground so hard that the earth shakes and clumps of rock and dirt fly into the air. Something that says "this is an awesome impenetrable shield" to the same degree that Behemoth Blade says "this is an awesome powerful sword slash".
 
Pikachu315111 said:
Probably can do this with all the Normal-type Pokemon.
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Come to think of it ... I think Normal as a typing is undergoing a pretty major identity crisis at the moment.

It used to be the "quirky creatures" type, monsters that didn't have the same mastery of elements or amazing martial skills of the other Pokémon, but did a bit of everything. They had amazingly wide movepools to make up for Normal's lack of type chart interactions. Gen I fit in Normal-types throughout the entire game, from the early Rattata and Pidgey to the late, rare, Kangaskhan, Chansey, Tauros, Porygon, Lickitung, Snorlax... and that's not even mentioning all of them. There used to be a lot of exotic Normal-types out there.

But as the generations have gone by, other types have begun to encroach on Normal's territory. Both Dark and Fairy have to a certain degree taken over the "regular animal, but with a twist" niche. Movepools in general are much wider now, making Normal-types less special in that sense. Everyone has got a lot to work with these days, and they tend to do it better than Normal-types as they bring both resistances and supereffective STAB to the table. And with the smaller pools of new Pokémon in recent generations, there isn't as much room for quirky Normal-types as there once was. Normal has gone from the "jack of all trades" type to the "just bland" type.

What Normal seems to have retained is, ironically, a thing for changing into other types. As if Normal is the blank slate that could and should be written over. It started with Ditto, Eevee, and Porygon, then continued with Kecleon, Castform, Arceus, and Silvally. Normal also has a few reserved spots in the early Pokédex (regional birds and rodents), then a couple cutemons a little later (Jigglypuff/Clefairy, Teddiursa, Skitty, Glameow, Minccino, Litleo, Stufful, Wooloo - there is amazing consistency here), and that tends to be it for the most part. Maybe there are a couple of single-stage gimmick 'mons later in the dex, but these are rarely more than underwhelming. Recent generations have attempted to tack a secondary Normal-type on to other Pokémon, like Helioptile or Drampa, but the reasoning is never really there. It's as if it was done just to bolster the ranks of the Normal-type. The attempts to give some Normal-types a secondary typing (that isn't flying - Girafarig was actually alone in this regard until Gen VI) seem to have been more successful, although in many cases one might also question why the Pokémon is Normal at all and not just the secondary type.

The characteristics of Normal-types seem to be overwritten by any secondary attributes they're given. It's not really a type that does its own things anymore, and it just tends to be worse than all the other types. It's rarely good to have as a secondary typing, as it adds no resistances, only one immunity (to one of the worst attacking types in the game, no less), but a fairly common weakness. It's not just a very advantageous typing to have.

If I were put in charge of revamping Pokémon in a major way, I'm not sure if I would keep the Normal-type. Its whole shtick thrived best in an environment where every other type was restrained and lacked options, but now that options are available for everyone, Normal doesn't have anything to stand out. It's in its name, after all. A decent chunk of its best Pokémon were retyped to Fairy already, many others could probably follow suit, Normal/Flying types might as well be pure Flying, make the rodents Ground or Dark, then Fighting would fit a surprising number of the rest. Something could probably be figured out for any remaining ones (knowing Pikachu315111, he'll probably make a list). It's a little harder to do anything about the Normal-type moves, since they are the bread and butter of the early-game, so maybe the type could live on exclusively for moves. Or I guess one could re-type a few and scrap the rest. The designers seem to struggle with Normal-type moves as well, since for each consecutive generation, there have been fewer and fewer new ones, and they are getting more and more gimmicky.

So yeah, Normal was conceived as a benchmark when the non-Normal types tended not to have any coverage options, or powerful moves of their own type. Normal was a standard the others couldn't meet, but now they can, and then some. Normal is left in the dust. To paraphrase The Incredibles: "When everyone is special, special takes over the role of normality".
 
I think I do mostly agree on Normals making more sense in early....actually no, basically just gen 1. maybe gen 2? Gen 1-3 definitely have a lot of constrained move pools but it is at its apex in gen 1. So many move poolss are short and full of Normal moves, with only light peppering of assorted other moves. Though there are an assortment that go against this because gen 1 is, as always, a bit inconsistent and messy.

At the same tiem though, I dunno, I just can't imagine throwing the type away even if they were into sweeping retcons. Pure Normal may not be used as often but they still show up and I still think yeah, this has a use. These look normal. These normal moves have a use. Guess the years where it was more prevelant help, though.

Even a lot of the Normal Dual Types I think are just really interesting visually. Helioptile & Indeedee is probably the most "why are you normal" of the bunch, but if you look at al of them (bar the flying brigade). Normal's associations in this case seems to be White and Black (rather than the more used Brown), using the other element as an accent color. It's striking if nothing else. I look at Drampa and believe, yeah, this is a normal/dragon.

But I do want to spot a correction: Girafarig wasn't the only /Normal pokemon before gen 6. You've forgotten Bibarel (Normal/Water), Deerling/Sawsbuck (Normal/Grass) and Meloetta (Normal/Fighting or Normal/Psychic)




Weird observation I don't know what to do with: Rookidee & Corvisquire are pure Flying.
 
On the topic of types that are generally overshadowed, there's also Bug. In it's case, it seems to be because Bug focuses more on utility and secondary effects over just straight damage (e.g. Bug enables Volcarona to be a strong fire type). Normal kind of runs into the opposite of that, in that it's trying to be basic but strong and can't quite make it to "strong" anymore. Arguably, normal started out as also having good utility, but utility options became more specific over time, and thus less able to be found on basic Normal mons (compare Toxic, Stealth Rock, and weather/terrain-setting abilities).

The issue seems for me to be Normal is trying to be both basic and generic, when those two goals don't necessarily align. Being basic involves having as few intereactions as possible, whereas being generic involves covering as many situations as possible. For example, many versions of D&D are combat engines foremost. An expansion that flashes out Player/NPC interactions thus makes them more generic (less tied to one specifc type of game) but less basic (there's another rulebook to learn). In pokemon, porygon is genericially typed (has no one specific type) and rattata is basically typed (i.e. the simplest interaction set). I would also consider Exploud and Slaking to be normal for General reasons, since they have a specific concept but said concept is not tied to any specific type. That said, both of them lack mechanics that encourage actually using their gimmick rather than ignoring or removing it (hence why Exploud is beaten at its own game by Toxtricity). This extra support is arguably more necessary for Normal types, since they can't be carried by a strong secondary type.

I don't mind shifting Normal from being the basic type to the general type, because I don't think there needs to be a significant amount of new basic content. Since being basic is defined by fewer interactions, that inherently means there is less content that can be explored within that space.
 
R_N said:
I think I do mostly agree on Normals making more sense in early....actually no, basically just gen 1. maybe gen 2? Gen 1-3 definitely have a lot of constrained move pools but it is at its apex in gen 1. So many move poolss are short and full of Normal moves, with only light peppering of assorted other moves. Though there are an assortment that go against this because gen 1 is, as always, a bit inconsistent and messy.

At the same tiem though, I dunno, I just can't imagine throwing the type away even if they were into sweeping retcons. Pure Normal may not be used as often but they still show up and I still think yeah, this has a use. These look normal. These normal moves have a use. Guess the years where it was more prevelant help, though.

Even a lot of the Normal Dual Types I think are just really interesting visually. Helioptile & Indeedee is probably the most "why are you normal" of the bunch, but if you look at al of them (bar the flying brigade). Normal's associations in this case seems to be White and Black (rather than the more used Brown), using the other element as an accent color. It's striking if nothing else. I look at Drampa and believe, yeah, this is a normal/dragon.

But I do want to spot a correction: Girafarig wasn't the only /Normal pokemon before gen 6. You've forgotten Bibarel (Normal/Water), Deerling/Sawsbuck (Normal/Grass) and Meloetta (Normal/Fighting or Normal/Psychic)




Weird observation I don't know what to do with: Rookidee & Corvisquire are pure Flying.
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Whoops, bit of a brainfart on the secondary Normals thing. Should have remembered Bibarel, at least, but to be fair, Bulbapedia's colours for Flying and Water are almost the same. And yeah, should have written Gen V instead of VI.

The thing with Normal nowadays, though, is that it doesn't seem like they're committing to it in any direction. New Normal-types are added almost as if by checklist. They're there to be a vanilla option in the early-game, the type that doesn't really do anything, and which you'll replace later. When they make Normal-types outside of the checklist, the word "filler" springs to mind more often than not. The likes of Bouffalant, Furfrou, or Komala exist, and that's pretty much the most notable thing about them (okay, Furfrou has its gimmick, but still). Dual Normal-types lean very heavily on their secondary typing, as if the Normal bit doesn't really count and is only there so there is a certain number of Normal-types in the generation. And there's the aforementioned issue that seemingly all Normal-type moves that need to be in the game were created in the first few generations. There's the basic damage-dealing moves, and a slew of gimmicky status moves, because Normal was always the type for gimmicky status moves - but with status moves, it's often completely irrelevant what type they are. Moves like Laser Focus, Tearful Look, Teatime, or Confide might as well have been any other type without changing anything - bar the very rare immunity, that is.

I think Normal needs a lot of anything to break the cycle. It doesn't matter as much what is done, as long as it is significant. Either give it a new niche to occupy, change its type chart interaction, or make more interesting Pokémon that are Normal-type. Something worth catching for its battle prowess and not just for Pokédex completion. Something that can stick on your team for the entire length of your journey. I think the Lillipup line was a great addition, being essentially a fourth starter, with a neutral typing, excellent coverage, and reliable stats all the way to the endgame. That's the sort of thing that works well. The Slakoth line was also interesting to play with in Gen III, owing to a unique (if somewhat frustrating) gimmick. The Chansey line has an interesting thing about walling every Special move ever, but requires a playstyle that doesn't suit in-game runs very well. The Porygon line is the last three-stage Normal-type line that isn't part Flying, and it's cool too (SpA for days! Adaptability! Hyper Beams that can punch through mountains!), but it's often too rare to be put to use. Well, there's also the Whismur line, which is a little too weak and slow to level to be fun to play with. But it was an attempt, at least. Please note too that all of these are from Gen V or earlier: Stoutland is still the newest three-stage, non-Flying Normal-type. Normal really is the type of birds and one- and two-stage filler 'mons. To be a better type, something has to change there.

Ironmage brings up the Bug-type, which I think has an interesting approach to mostly being seen as an early-game type: There are the boring, garden-variety Bugs that show new players their first type chart interactions, teach them about evolution, and are discarded from most teams around the third Gym, but there are also exotic, strong, late-game Bugs. Beyond Butterfree and Ledian, you have the likes of Heracross, Scizor, Volcarona, or Golisopod that look as if they can tear creatures limb from limb, and act the part too. Normal used to have something similar with Chansey, Snorlax, or Porygon, but the approach has since mostly been abandoned. I guess there's only so much that can be done when you stick to a basic role that decree a lack of secondary typings. You run out of possibility space really quick.

So I think Normal is stuck in a vicious cycle: 1) It really hasn't been given any new niche to explore after its original one was made redundant, so 2) it has run out of things to offer. And as it doesn't offer much that the other types don't, while retaining its original drawbacks, 3) Pokémon of the Normal-type are seen as weaker and more boring than other types. And since the number of Pokémon in newer generations is lower than it used to, the designers have to prioritize, so 4) new Normal-types don't get any priority since that goes to the "cooler" types. This leads to 5) Normal-types being designed by checklist: Early bird, early rodent, maybe a cutesy two-stage family or two, lategame filler one-stage, that's enough. And then we're back to 1) - As the Normal-types are designed by checklist, the designers aren't doing anything new with them.

I think it's time to re-think the role of Normal-types, and either change it up or add some new Pokémon that represent the role better. For instance, a good generalist line with coverage moves by level-up. One can also dream about Normal-type pseudo-legendaries, but I guess Game Freak wants to reserve that role for the "cooler" types: Dragon + one of either Fairy, Ghost, Steel, Dark, Psychic, or Fighting. Those types get all the fun, and using at least one of them as a primary or secondary typing is practically mandatory for final starter evolutions, legendaries, Mythicals, cover legends, pseudos, regional forms, or really any notable Pokémon in the latter half of a regional Pokédex. Why can't Normal be in that company?
 
Maybe it's time for Normal to get some SE damage? It has one weakness, one immunity (which is really saying something because there's what 6 total immunities in this series and 3 of those were put on newly introduced types), let's give it one strength. Preferably not against normal types, even if that would complete the dragon comparisons. Maybe Psychic could be fun, put it in a rivalry where it's the jack of all/master of none against the hyper focused psychics & fighting types.






Also...while I get what you mean by "filler"...I think that's a little unfair and these recent generations have an Issue with type distribution to begin with due to their small size. Remember how Gen 6 had one bug line and 2 ground types? Vivillon was the token starter bug, Diggersby was the default rodent and Zygarde was a legendary. The fact Normal got to have its "filler" Furfrou along side three (THREE!) dual types is a small miracle, most types didn't get to have the luxury of filler at all. Or how Alola had to rely heavily on Alolan forms to get around the fact it had one ice type & 2 dark types.

I guess it's kind of interesting how they keep going out of their way to include Normal in this fashion? WIth the dual types, I mean. They don't need to by any means, they have no qualms about leaving even common types at low representation per generation, but they never the less keep doing it.
 
I think that the area where Normal-Type is trying to stand out is with regards to sound-based moves. The vast majority of them are Normal-Type, with the exceptions being the signature moves Chatter, Overdrive, Clanging Scales, & Sparkling Aria; and regular moves Bug Buzz, Snarl, and Disarming Voice. On the other hand, Normal-Type has Uproar, Round, Echoed Voice, Boomburst, Hyper Voice, and Relic Song which is signature to Meloetta who's only Normal-Type for its relationship with sound. There are also status moves, most of which are also Normal-Type.

This gives Normal-Type a niche in high level play where Snarl and Disarming Voice see little to or no play respectively, because they're the best counters to Substitute, a fairly ubiquitous move in battle facilities and the competitive scene. It's small, and I'd like to see a physical sound-based Normal-Type move to complete this niche and further set it apart from Bug Buzz as a niche, but this relationship to sound has been developing for generations at this point, starting from Gen III with the Whismur family.

Or, well, it hasn't seen any further development since Gen VI and the introduction of Boomburst. And then in Gen VII they made Primarina, who's a glaring exception to this entire relationship thanks to Liquid Voice, an ability created just to retype these Normal-Type sound-based moves into its stab Water-Type instead of just making it Water/Normal to begin with like they did with Pyroar to accentuate the roaring aspect of its design that fsr they pushed to the forefront. So perhaps making Normal-Type the de facto Sound-Type has been forgotten by the new directors heading these games. If so, that'd be a real shame.
 
Hematite said:
I'm honestly kind of concerned that Game Freak made it Fairy solely because it's canonically a girl and I resent the implication if so
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Zacian is genderless.

Hematite said:
No Pokémon except Rotom, but again, not completely has ever been retconned out of a type except Normal, and I think Game Freak wanted to keep it that way.
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Neat, Game Freak is still stuck in tradition despite picking game features out of a roulette wheel.

They're still trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Codraroll said:
Normal has gone from the "jack of all trades" type to the "just bland" type.
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Here's the thing, while I agree with you, Normal-types were always better defined as the "just bland/too quirky to fit other types".
The wide movepools were always just extra depth to them as a type, making them versatile jack-of-all-trades, not their primary defining trait.

Codraroll said:
If I were put in charge of revamping Pokémon in a major way, I'm not sure if I would keep the Normal-type.
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Now that's something I don't agree with. Normal, as a type, may not be the greatest boon in the world, but it's not a bad one and their niche as the bland type is important.

Things *do* get weird on dual-typed Normal mons though, Heliolisk was mentioned earlier and I agree that it's a good example. There's nothing bland or too quirky about it.

Codraroll said:
or make more interesting Pokémon that are Normal-type. Something worth catching for its battle prowess and not just for Pokédex completion. Something that can stick on your team for the entire length of your journey.
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I agree with that.

Let's go back to RBY for a bit. You had the early game normal trash mons, but you also had stronger options like Tauros, Kangaskhan, and Chansey if you wanted to pursue them. (Shame pretty much all of them were on the Safari Zone.)

Adding strong mons, not necessarily late-game mons like RBY Tauros, would be a boon to the type. STAB Hyper Voice/Boomburst/Double-Edge are moves that hit like freight trains and are actually pretty hard to deal with if you have potent users of these moves because Normal-types tend to have the coverage to deal with Rock, Steel, and Ghost-types.

Porygon-Z is a good example of this. You'd be hard-pressed to outright wall it, the best option to deal with it is really going on the offense because if it gets a Download/Nasty Plot boost or even if it just isn't choice-locked, it will hit whatever is on its way very hard.

When you think about it, it's the same problem the Ice-type has. Poor representation.

Game Freak really needs to ditch the idea of using icebergs as a base for Ice mons. The type is not defensive. It was never good defensively. Aurora Veil is nice, but not enough. Even Hail is the worst weather.

What happened when we got an offensively-designed Ice mon? We got Weavile!

Weavile is an Ice-type that really takes what's good about the type. (Except the STAB move. Now imagine it with Refrigerate.)

Normal-types need good reps. That type is severely underrated.
 
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