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Metagame National Dex UU Metagame Discussion - Porygon-Z Banned
- Thread starter N_Mareanie
- Start date
How did we get here?
I don’t see Galarian bro being that good in this tier because of latias being a better psychic type attacker. Rapid strike Urshifu probably is gonna Be a decent choice scarfer and can probably set up on cele that don’t carry air slash. Heattom is probably gonna be a really good mon as it’s typing allows it to switch in to prominent mons like kyu and might even be a good check to mega venu.Gains
OU --> UUBL
View attachment 258989View attachment 258988(rapid-strike) OU --> UU
no apparently zarude is not allowed
Galar Bro is more of a meme pick but it's probably not that bad offensively. It has regen for longevity, as well as pretty decent coverage to blow through steel types that latias might struggle with in the current state. But of course ttar existing is a huge F. You could run a mixed set with earthquake to deal with ttar but i wouldn't recommend it cause you are forgoing either Nasty Plot or Slack Off. Btw Rotom-H shouldn't switch into Venusaur, if Venu sludge bombs and you get poisoned that really cripples oven.
Edit: Never run earthquake that shit does 0 to ttar just calc'd
Ok after seeing and using the new drops i will briefly give my opinions on them.
Honestly i thought Urshifu would be absolutely broken. But after playing with and against it i can proudly say this mon is actually not problematic at all IMO (might be a hot take), but it's definitely a really good mon. 130 base attack with Fighting/Water/Psychic coverage is extremely nice allowing you to completely decimate would be switch ins with some prediction. Not to mention it has U-Turn as momentum which allows it to create some pretty scare VoltTurn. It has a few viable sets, Band and Scarf sets let you abuse the coverage options while acting as a fierce wallbreaker or revenge killer. It also has a Bulk Up Z move set using Psychium which lets it blow past mons that would normally be a pretty safe switch in to stab options (Amoonguss, Venusuar, Tapu Bulu) which is extremely fire. I expect this mon to be pretty high on the VR and you should always have this mon in mind when you are building a team.
If you're a connoisseur of absolute dog shit mons like me then you'll like it. But sadly it is extremely mid and is pretty much outclassed by every other psychic type. F in the chat for our boi.
The fucking GOAT is back and he's proving to be a top pick in the meta if you want a defogger or a really solid pivot. A fire typing (im funny laugh rn), great offensive presence with nasty plot, defog, a decent speed tier and pretty respectable bulk lets Rotom-Heat compress many roles into one slot. It beats so many threats in the tier it is insane from Scizor, to Salamence (if you're carrying wisp or hp ice instead of defog or nasty plot), Mamoswine, Togekiss and other Electric types. Nasty Plot allows it to break down teams pretty easily as well, having a +2 Overheat lets you pretty much 2hko venusaur after the drop, lets you get off a strong volt switch if you need to and even opens up the possibility to use a NP Firium/Electrium set to completely nuke shit. It's a really good asset to any team and it was nuts when i used it.
Honestly i thought Urshifu would be absolutely broken. But after playing with and against it i can proudly say this mon is actually not problematic at all IMO (might be a hot take), but it's definitely a really good mon. 130 base attack with Fighting/Water/Psychic coverage is extremely nice allowing you to completely decimate would be switch ins with some prediction. Not to mention it has U-Turn as momentum which allows it to create some pretty scare VoltTurn. It has a few viable sets, Band and Scarf sets let you abuse the coverage options while acting as a fierce wallbreaker or revenge killer. It also has a Bulk Up Z move set using Psychium which lets it blow past mons that would normally be a pretty safe switch in to stab options (Amoonguss, Venusuar, Tapu Bulu) which is extremely fire. I expect this mon to be pretty high on the VR and you should always have this mon in mind when you are building a team.
If you're a connoisseur of absolute dog shit mons like me then you'll like it. But sadly it is extremely mid and is pretty much outclassed by every other psychic type. F in the chat for our boi.
The fucking GOAT is back and he's proving to be a top pick in the meta if you want a defogger or a really solid pivot. A fire typing (im funny laugh rn), great offensive presence with nasty plot, defog, a decent speed tier and pretty respectable bulk lets Rotom-Heat compress many roles into one slot. It beats so many threats in the tier it is insane from Scizor, to Salamence (if you're carrying wisp or hp ice instead of defog or nasty plot), Mamoswine, Togekiss and other Electric types. Nasty Plot allows it to break down teams pretty easily as well, having a +2 Overheat lets you pretty much 2hko venusaur after the drop, lets you get off a strong volt switch if you need to and even opens up the possibility to use a NP Firium/Electrium set to completely nuke shit. It's a really good asset to any team and it was nuts when i used it.
VR Update
Yes it's been a while, but after a huge amount of changes happening in the tier, we've finally been able to do a complete update on the viability rankings. Here they are:
I gotta go to work now, so an explanation will follow once I am back.
Yes it's been a while, but after a huge amount of changes happening in the tier, we've finally been able to do a complete update on the viability rankings. Here they are:
Drops
A+ --> A
A+ --> A
A --> A-
A --> A-
A- --> B+
A- --> B+
B+ --> B
B+ --> B
B+ --> B
B+ --> B
B+ --> B
B --> B-
B --> B-
B- --> C
B- --> C
B- --> Unranked
B- --> Unranked
C --> Unranked
C --> Unranked
C --> Unranked
C --> Unranked
C --> Unranked
C --> Unranked
C --> Unranked
C --> Unranked
Rises
A+ --> S
A --> S
A --> A+
A --> A+
A --> A+
A --> A+
A- --> A
B+ --> A
B+ --> A-
B+ --> A-
B+ --> A-
B+ --> A-
B --> B+
B --> B+
B --> B+
B --> B+
B- --> B+
B- --> B+
B- --> B
B- --> B
B- --> B
B- --> B
C --> B
C --> B
C --> B-
Unranked --> A+
Unranked --> A+
Unranked --> B-
Unranked --> B-
Unranked --> B-
Unranked --> B-
Unranked --> C
A+ --> A A+ --> A A --> A- A --> A- A- --> B+ A- --> B+ B+ --> B B+ --> B B+ --> B B+ --> B B+ --> B B --> B- B --> B- B- --> C B- --> C B- --> Unranked B- --> Unranked C --> Unranked C --> Unranked C --> Unranked C --> Unranked C --> Unranked C --> Unranked C --> Unranked C --> UnrankedRises
A+ --> S A --> S A --> A+ A --> A+ A --> A+ A --> A+ A- --> A B+ --> A B+ --> A- B+ --> A- B+ --> A- B+ --> A- B --> B+ B --> B+ B --> B+ B --> B+ B- --> B+ B- --> B+ B- --> B B- --> B B- --> B B- --> B C --> B C --> B C --> B- Unranked --> A+ Unranked --> B- Unranked --> B- Unranked --> B- Unranked --> B- Unranked --> CI gotta go to work now, so an explanation will follow once I am back.
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Since Mareanie has to work i'll explain why we chose to rise a few specific mons.
To keep it simple here, Scizor is the best mon in the tier if not the second best right behind Mega-Tyranitar. Scizor's variety of offensive and defensive capabilities allow it to have extremely fire role compression. Bulkier spreads allow you to take advantage of scizor's 8 resistances and 1 immunity and as well check both specs Kyurem and Mega-Diancie in the same slot, while at the same time giving your team a pretty good defogger or a good bulky late game cleaner with SD. Offensive sets on the other hand allow Scizor to quite literally have a great match up against every mon in the viability rankings. SD Z/Life Orb and Choice Band sets allow scizor to offensively check so many threats within the tier.
In every sense of the word Mega Tyranitar is broken and doesn't die. It can rock, pursuit trap and break all in the same slot. Doesn't stop there btw, Tyranitar is hands down one of the best screens abusers with Dragon Dance. 100/150/120(+sand boost) behind screens is nigh unkillable and with just a few dragon dances and some hazard chip it will completely obliterate your team by clicking stone edge. The best counter to this mon is Hippo or Pert and both of these dislike taking +1 ice punch after hazard damage.
It's Kyurem. It has 3 defensive switch ins being Spdef Sylveon, Bulky Scizor and Bronzong ffs. You are forced to play offensively against Kyurem if you have none of these, and usually if Kyurem gets a safe switch in from a Volt Switch, U-Turn or a good double it claims a kill or dents something with it's ridiculously strong stabs. Kyurem does hate Hazards though but this can be circumvented by running a heavy duty boots set with sub roost. It's definitely one of the strongest mons in the tier.
With Keldeo, Urshifu, Scizor and Infernape being so common Jellicent is rising in usage. Slap this bad boy on some Balance or Bulky Offense and it will work wonders. It acts as a good water switch in, spinblocker vs tentacruel and starmie to a lesser extent and a pretty good stallbreaker. Though the main reason it rose is because it completely counters Banded and Scarf urshifu, keldeo, scizor and infernape. Access to taunt, strength sap, wisp and many more utility options helps it as well. Though you 100% only run colbur to help the match up vs tyranitar and Knock Off scizor, allows you to get a free wisp and cripple them.
To keep it simple here, Scizor is the best mon in the tier if not the second best right behind Mega-Tyranitar. Scizor's variety of offensive and defensive capabilities allow it to have extremely fire role compression. Bulkier spreads allow you to take advantage of scizor's 8 resistances and 1 immunity and as well check both specs Kyurem and Mega-Diancie in the same slot, while at the same time giving your team a pretty good defogger or a good bulky late game cleaner with SD. Offensive sets on the other hand allow Scizor to quite literally have a great match up against every mon in the viability rankings. SD Z/Life Orb and Choice Band sets allow scizor to offensively check so many threats within the tier.
In every sense of the word Mega Tyranitar is broken and doesn't die. It can rock, pursuit trap and break all in the same slot. Doesn't stop there btw, Tyranitar is hands down one of the best screens abusers with Dragon Dance. 100/150/120(+sand boost) behind screens is nigh unkillable and with just a few dragon dances and some hazard chip it will completely obliterate your team by clicking stone edge. The best counter to this mon is Hippo or Pert and both of these dislike taking +1 ice punch after hazard damage.
It's Kyurem. It has 3 defensive switch ins being Spdef Sylveon, Bulky Scizor and Bronzong ffs. You are forced to play offensively against Kyurem if you have none of these, and usually if Kyurem gets a safe switch in from a Volt Switch, U-Turn or a good double it claims a kill or dents something with it's ridiculously strong stabs. Kyurem does hate Hazards though but this can be circumvented by running a heavy duty boots set with sub roost. It's definitely one of the strongest mons in the tier.
With Keldeo, Urshifu, Scizor and Infernape being so common Jellicent is rising in usage. Slap this bad boy on some Balance or Bulky Offense and it will work wonders. It acts as a good water switch in, spinblocker vs tentacruel and starmie to a lesser extent and a pretty good stallbreaker. Though the main reason it rose is because it completely counters Banded and Scarf urshifu, keldeo, scizor and infernape. Access to taunt, strength sap, wisp and many more utility options helps it as well. Though you 100% only run colbur to help the match up vs tyranitar and Knock Off scizor, allows you to get a free wisp and cripple them.
Attachments
I’ve come back from my 2 year absence (or something like that, might even be 3 years lmao) from the forums to preach Scarf Urshifu-R (and talk about other stuff too but w/e). This thing is legitimately the best scarfer in the tier by a country mile and there’s frankly only one reason to not use this as your speed control (aside from if you’re already using a different Urshifu set), and that is if you need to revenge kill +1 Salamence. Meanwhile, it’s one of bulky offense and volt turn’s only options to deal with broken Mega Tyranitar that aren’t passive offensive momentum sinks.
It revenge kills literally every offensive mon (including sweepers, notably all SD Scizors and especially “why am I not banned yet” Mega Tar) aside from the aforementioned Salamence and Latias. Latias is still taking ~60% from U-turn, though, and can be revenged with Ice Punch if you *really* care about killing the mon you’re using to setup with Mega Tyranitar. Oh yeah, did I mention it gets U-turn? So not only do you revenge 90% of the offensive mons in the tier, you can get momentum doing it as well. And, unlike Keldeo, you have two 110+ BP reliable STABs AND coverage, not to mention your pivot move isn’t immuned by Mantine/Gastro/etc. Surging Strikes breaks subs too which is nice for dealing with broken SubNP Gengar and murdering webs teams that rely on sash Ribombee for webs.
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch
- U-turn
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch
- U-turn
Frankly, this thing’s only issues are Mega Venu/Amoong, water/fighting isn’t amazing stab to be locked in on. Sometimes it’s *too* good at being a scarfer sometimes, to the extent that it feels like a wincon in and of itself against non Balance/Stall teams. Which is fair, considering it rips bulky offense a new one if they don’t have any good pivots for it, the list of which consists of… defensive Primarina and Mega Venusaur… Not that these are bad mons, Mega Venu is still the best defensive mon in the tier behind Hippo, and Flip Turn Prima is a pretty solid pivot, but they’re too passive for most bulky offense teams, even though they’re considerably less passive than many of scarf Urshifu’s other checks.
Band is annoying for BO too but you can revenge kill it with most Mega Venu breakers due to Urshifu having both of Mega Venu’s effective weaknesses, and most teams are running good Urshifu pivots anyways so they can figure out what it’ll be locked into and respond appropriately. Balance is fine against scarf, as it can afford to run stuff like Amoonguss and more importantly Mega Venu without worrying about them killing your offensive momentum, and the same goes for stall. It’s literally every other playstyle that this thing devours if used by a semi competent player. Ignore that it U-turns into their Mega Venu breaker for a sec. Whether or not it'll remain this oppressive on building remains to be seen, and it definitely is more likely to stay than broken Mega Tyranitar.
I think Conkeldurr isn’t A+ material but I feel most of my argument is anecdotal and to be honest I haven’t seen it in ages, though that probably speaks to how hard it is to build a good team with it, which alone should be an argument against it being A+. The long and short of it is it doesn’t offer much utility in the teambuilder outside of a Mega Tar check and wallbreaker, and while it is a great wallbreaker, there are other wallbreakers I’d rather use, due to them being much more splashable, offering much more utility, and being similarly if not more threatening whilst not needing as much team support to be effective. The payoff for using it is often counteracted by how much of a headache it is to get it to work in the first place.
Don’t get me wrong, Conk is still threatening against fat, and scary to be up against, but I’d be hard pressed to say a mon that needs that much support is an A+ mon. I just feel it fits more in with the likes of Mega Garde or Xurkitree, who are actually probably still more splashable thinking about it but also still need a sizeable amount of support to get in safely.
Last, but certainly not least…
Can we please ban it already? I know we have scarf Urshifu which is, again, amazing, and makes MTar tolerable for the teambuilder, but it still feels like we’re obligated to have Urshifu or Keldeo (on non stall/balance anyways), seeing as how few mons can actually reliably revenge MTar at +1 when healthy (which is a lot more likely than you’d think considering it can also bluff being one of the most threatening wallbreakers in the tier to setup) and even less so when behind screens. Not everyone wants to run Hippowdon balance, and some people want to run teams that don’t have Urshifu or Keldeo on them. Even with Urshifu in the tier it feels super oppressive, which is bad considering Urshifu is what we were begging for to deal with MTar (and Urshi is kinda oppressive itself too). I won’t go into it further because I’m sure that’s a horse that has been thoroughly beaten to death, but yeah, ban it already.
I might drop a few noms for the VR some other time but I am awful at keeping posts short, so it won't be in this one as it's gone on a fair while lmao.
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Hello there, finally have some time to make a post. Will go over some 'mons I think are good right now, overrated, broken etc. etc.
One of the newest additions to the tier, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike. Niadev has said most things already, but it is without a doubt the best Scarfer in the tier because of its solid revenge-killing abilities and U-turn giving it constant momentum. Its one of the best offensive checks to DD Mega Tyranitar right now, especially factoring in that Surging Strikes just crits through Screens, the team playstyle DD Mega Tyranitar is very present on rn. U-turn allows Pokemon like Starmie and Latias to not take fully advantage of Urshifu, while CC and Surging Strikes both have a good possibility to clean up some games. Thunder Punch in the last slot is super nice because Gyarados is ever becoming more present. Not even to mention both Band sets, and even BU Z-Move sets aren't horrible at all and can fuck over so many bulkier teams, with Z-Zen Headbutt breaking through its regular checks in Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur. It's super splashable right now, as well as just super consistent at what it does, and I wouldn't be surprised if we'd end up moving this thing to S rank.
I woulda have wanted to quickban this before shifts, but I think the meta has adapted enough to it to the point a quickban is definitely out of question. Urshifu-Rapid-Strike dropping means it rarely sweeps games anymore, Band Mach Punch Infernape / CB Breloom / Conkeldurr are very solid, and especially the former has been seeing a huge rise in use lately. This coupled with the fact that Hippowdon is on nearly every bulky team right now (this was the case before Mega Tyranitar dropped btw), as well as Mega Steelix and on some occasion Mega Aggron seeing more use makes it so Mega Tyranitar isn't as overly busted as it was at the start. However, it is still by far the best Mega and Rocker in the tier, an amazing Pursuit trapper, and DD sets are still extremely threatening under the right conditions since it is SO hard to revenge kill this thing from full. I wouldn't surprise me if we decided the suspect this thing in the future, but it seems fine for this point in time.
These two are the two biggest problems the tier is facing right now. Literally nothing reliably defensively counters these two outside of very specific things, which means both in teambuilding and in practice they are putting so much pressure on you. Gengar literally has zero counterplay outside of AV Alolan Muk which is at full, which is basically impossible since Alolan Muk is just super easy to chip down because of no reliable recovery + hazard weak. Faster threats, sure, but that doesn't mean anything if Gengar is behind a Sub anyway and kills you. Sub also means you can easily outplay Suckers from Bisharp and avoid getting Pursuit trapped by the likes of Weavile/Mega Aero/Scarf Krook. This 'mon is unhealthy in every way or form and you guys can definitely see some sort of tiering action on this in the future.
Kyurem plays a bit different than Gengar, as while offense counterplay is a bit easier to access against this because of the lower speed tier, it doesn't need to set up at all. It just comes in and clicks buttons, and you just have to hope you get the 50/50 right and not switch your Steel type into Earth Power. Freeze-Dry made this thing unwallable af because Primarina doesn't counter it anymore. Bronzong is a good counter to the Specs set, but loses to SubRoost 9/10 times because either a. Gyro Ball will just literally be stalled out (if Kyurem is at full you literally just have to Sub 4 times and boom no more Gyro PP) or b. if it's Psywave, you have to keep relying on rolls to break the sub and Bronzong has no recovery, as well as the fact that Kyurem can just freeze you in the long run. Blissey also loses to SubRoost since Seismic Toss doesn't break the Sub. Scizor is like the most consistent check for it, untill Earth Power drops your SpDef on the switch haha. There is absolutely no reliable counterplay for this 'mon and isn't doing any healthy business in the tier either.
Yeah, that's right. Here's your offensive destroyer. It's simple. Lead Pincurchin, set up some Spikes or smthng then try to get Alolan Raichu in and just start clicking buttons. Literally nothing outside of priority can revenge AloChu under Terrain (you can just run Modest every time too) and Rising Voltage has like absolutely no switch ins on offense and even some BO teams. Tyranitar gets fucked by a +2 Grass Knot (Focus Blast isn't necessary cause we don't have Hydreigon here anymore). To demonstrate this power;
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Electric Terrain: 524-617 (73.3 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah that's right. This shit kills Mega Tyranitar at +2 lmaooo. Now there are obvious problems like getting at actual +2, but you only really need to set up against bulkier teams anyway since you can most of the time just kill literally everything on offense anyway. Just wanna highlight this core and that it's actually very fucking solid and you will not be disappointed. Just Pursuit trap Latias.
!!11!1!! is happy right now.
One of the newest additions to the tier, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike. Niadev has said most things already, but it is without a doubt the best Scarfer in the tier because of its solid revenge-killing abilities and U-turn giving it constant momentum. Its one of the best offensive checks to DD Mega Tyranitar right now, especially factoring in that Surging Strikes just crits through Screens, the team playstyle DD Mega Tyranitar is very present on rn. U-turn allows Pokemon like Starmie and Latias to not take fully advantage of Urshifu, while CC and Surging Strikes both have a good possibility to clean up some games. Thunder Punch in the last slot is super nice because Gyarados is ever becoming more present. Not even to mention both Band sets, and even BU Z-Move sets aren't horrible at all and can fuck over so many bulkier teams, with Z-Zen Headbutt breaking through its regular checks in Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur. It's super splashable right now, as well as just super consistent at what it does, and I wouldn't be surprised if we'd end up moving this thing to S rank.
I woulda have wanted to quickban this before shifts, but I think the meta has adapted enough to it to the point a quickban is definitely out of question. Urshifu-Rapid-Strike dropping means it rarely sweeps games anymore, Band Mach Punch Infernape / CB Breloom / Conkeldurr are very solid, and especially the former has been seeing a huge rise in use lately. This coupled with the fact that Hippowdon is on nearly every bulky team right now (this was the case before Mega Tyranitar dropped btw), as well as Mega Steelix and on some occasion Mega Aggron seeing more use makes it so Mega Tyranitar isn't as overly busted as it was at the start. However, it is still by far the best Mega and Rocker in the tier, an amazing Pursuit trapper, and DD sets are still extremely threatening under the right conditions since it is SO hard to revenge kill this thing from full. I wouldn't surprise me if we decided the suspect this thing in the future, but it seems fine for this point in time.
These two are the two biggest problems the tier is facing right now. Literally nothing reliably defensively counters these two outside of very specific things, which means both in teambuilding and in practice they are putting so much pressure on you. Gengar literally has zero counterplay outside of AV Alolan Muk which is at full, which is basically impossible since Alolan Muk is just super easy to chip down because of no reliable recovery + hazard weak. Faster threats, sure, but that doesn't mean anything if Gengar is behind a Sub anyway and kills you. Sub also means you can easily outplay Suckers from Bisharp and avoid getting Pursuit trapped by the likes of Weavile/Mega Aero/Scarf Krook. This 'mon is unhealthy in every way or form and you guys can definitely see some sort of tiering action on this in the future.
Kyurem plays a bit different than Gengar, as while offense counterplay is a bit easier to access against this because of the lower speed tier, it doesn't need to set up at all. It just comes in and clicks buttons, and you just have to hope you get the 50/50 right and not switch your Steel type into Earth Power. Freeze-Dry made this thing unwallable af because Primarina doesn't counter it anymore. Bronzong is a good counter to the Specs set, but loses to SubRoost 9/10 times because either a. Gyro Ball will just literally be stalled out (if Kyurem is at full you literally just have to Sub 4 times and boom no more Gyro PP) or b. if it's Psywave, you have to keep relying on rolls to break the sub and Bronzong has no recovery, as well as the fact that Kyurem can just freeze you in the long run. Blissey also loses to SubRoost since Seismic Toss doesn't break the Sub. Scizor is like the most consistent check for it, untill Earth Power drops your SpDef on the switch haha. There is absolutely no reliable counterplay for this 'mon and isn't doing any healthy business in the tier either.
Yeah, that's right. Here's your offensive destroyer. It's simple. Lead Pincurchin, set up some Spikes or smthng then try to get Alolan Raichu in and just start clicking buttons. Literally nothing outside of priority can revenge AloChu under Terrain (you can just run Modest every time too) and Rising Voltage has like absolutely no switch ins on offense and even some BO teams. Tyranitar gets fucked by a +2 Grass Knot (Focus Blast isn't necessary cause we don't have Hydreigon here anymore). To demonstrate this power;
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Electric Terrain: 524-617 (73.3 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah that's right. This shit kills Mega Tyranitar at +2 lmaooo. Now there are obvious problems like getting at actual +2, but you only really need to set up against bulkier teams anyway since you can most of the time just kill literally everything on offense anyway. Just wanna highlight this core and that it's actually very fucking solid and you will not be disappointed. Just Pursuit trap Latias.
!!11!1!! is happy right now.
I'll be making one of my horribly structured Baker post again. This time about how i feel about the current meta.
The Good:
Alolan-Raichu, i've been using this thing ever since Pincurchin was a thing. And now that it has Rising Voltage it is quite literally a threat, and a huge one at that. There's not much i can add that Mareanie didn't already state above. Raichu definitely has it's own fair share of issues (IE being frail and relying on terrain) but outside of those few things it has many good upsides. Please use Raichu <3! It makes me happy to see him being used, he's goat asf and actually a threat to watch for!
I want to echo both of what Nia and Mareanie said above. Waterbear is really splashable as a scarfer, it allows you to have a fire match up vs Bisharp, Weavile, Tyranitar (mega and band) and plenty of other threats. U-Turn lets you get free momentum off of Latias, Starmie, Amoonguss, Venusaur-Mega and Jellicent (if you click tpunch against this thing you're gonna be doing nothing unless ur fishing for para or already have good chip).
Infernape is one of my favorite mons in the tier rn. Insanely strong stab options (some with priority), good coverage, momentum and a great offensive typing. Band sets often find themselves hard to switch into and SD/NP Z sets can easily blow through your team if you aren't prepped for it. Scarf sets do scarf things. It's typing and defensive utility even allows it to run defensive sets that can check banded scizor, weavile and bish in one slot, while serving as a rocker or just a good defensive pivot.
Edit: Dragalge is also pretty fire. Not the best dragon but it's pretty decent. A good typing which allows it to switch into shit like Keldeo quite easily while having Flip Turn to gain momentum on specs sets. And being extremely strong due to Specs + Adaptibility with high BP stab moves. It pairs nicely with Magneton to make a good DragMag core while having Volt Switch + Flip Turn to spam some momentum.
The Bad:
There honestly really isn't much "bad" lol. The tier is in a fine spot besides a few mons being clear issues.
The Ugly:
Gengar and Kyurem are the product of getting new tools and these new tools pushing them overboard. Gengar getting nasty plot ascended it to a tier that i don't think any mon in this tier can reach. +2 Ghostium allows you to get a free kill essentially as nothing in this tier besides spdef Mandibuzz and AV Muk can deal with it. And offensive counterplay is near impossible due to Substitute allowing Gengar to outplay bisharp's sucker punch or kill something faster due to substitute soaking up the hit for it. It's quite unhealthy and it really pushes it over the edge,
Kyurem. Kyurem got freeze dry which means it can kill every single bulky water which would've been a switch in for it. As Mareanie said offensive counterplay is easier due to lower speed but the ability to click a button and get a kill is extremely wack. Especially when you're playing a coin toss game to guess what they're switching into and if they make the wrong switch they die. This mind you requires no set up and only requires kyurem to click a button and guess right. It has no defensive counterplay besides the sad Bronzong. Which loses to subroost. The only real check defensively is defensive scizor. Which can get annoyed if it switches into a earth power spdef drop. This shit is lame, tl;dr click move get kill.
Tyranitar-Mega is a mon that got a bit easier to play against with the addition of Waterbear. But that imo doesn't make it any less of a hassle to play against. Seeing how you literally NEED Urshifu-R, Hippo or Keldeo to really deal with this. I made multiple post on how annoying this mon is to deal with and how much strain it puts on team building.
The Good:
Alolan-Raichu, i've been using this thing ever since Pincurchin was a thing. And now that it has Rising Voltage it is quite literally a threat, and a huge one at that. There's not much i can add that Mareanie didn't already state above. Raichu definitely has it's own fair share of issues (IE being frail and relying on terrain) but outside of those few things it has many good upsides. Please use Raichu <3! It makes me happy to see him being used, he's goat asf and actually a threat to watch for!
I want to echo both of what Nia and Mareanie said above. Waterbear is really splashable as a scarfer, it allows you to have a fire match up vs Bisharp, Weavile, Tyranitar (mega and band) and plenty of other threats. U-Turn lets you get free momentum off of Latias, Starmie, Amoonguss, Venusaur-Mega and Jellicent (if you click tpunch against this thing you're gonna be doing nothing unless ur fishing for para or already have good chip).
Infernape is one of my favorite mons in the tier rn. Insanely strong stab options (some with priority), good coverage, momentum and a great offensive typing. Band sets often find themselves hard to switch into and SD/NP Z sets can easily blow through your team if you aren't prepped for it. Scarf sets do scarf things. It's typing and defensive utility even allows it to run defensive sets that can check banded scizor, weavile and bish in one slot, while serving as a rocker or just a good defensive pivot.
Edit: Dragalge is also pretty fire. Not the best dragon but it's pretty decent. A good typing which allows it to switch into shit like Keldeo quite easily while having Flip Turn to gain momentum on specs sets. And being extremely strong due to Specs + Adaptibility with high BP stab moves. It pairs nicely with Magneton to make a good DragMag core while having Volt Switch + Flip Turn to spam some momentum.
The Bad:
There honestly really isn't much "bad" lol. The tier is in a fine spot besides a few mons being clear issues.
The Ugly:
Gengar and Kyurem are the product of getting new tools and these new tools pushing them overboard. Gengar getting nasty plot ascended it to a tier that i don't think any mon in this tier can reach. +2 Ghostium allows you to get a free kill essentially as nothing in this tier besides spdef Mandibuzz and AV Muk can deal with it. And offensive counterplay is near impossible due to Substitute allowing Gengar to outplay bisharp's sucker punch or kill something faster due to substitute soaking up the hit for it. It's quite unhealthy and it really pushes it over the edge,
Kyurem. Kyurem got freeze dry which means it can kill every single bulky water which would've been a switch in for it. As Mareanie said offensive counterplay is easier due to lower speed but the ability to click a button and get a kill is extremely wack. Especially when you're playing a coin toss game to guess what they're switching into and if they make the wrong switch they die. This mind you requires no set up and only requires kyurem to click a button and guess right. It has no defensive counterplay besides the sad Bronzong. Which loses to subroost. The only real check defensively is defensive scizor. Which can get annoyed if it switches into a earth power spdef drop. This shit is lame, tl;dr click move get kill.
Tyranitar-Mega is a mon that got a bit easier to play against with the addition of Waterbear. But that imo doesn't make it any less of a hassle to play against. Seeing how you literally NEED Urshifu-R, Hippo or Keldeo to really deal with this. I made multiple post on how annoying this mon is to deal with and how much strain it puts on team building.
Is DD base Ttar viable? it actually OHKOs Hippo with +1 Z Aqua Tail or can opt to run Fightium Z to OHKO FIghting types which is something Mega Ttar can't do without prior damage or a couple of DDs. Seems good on paper but idk. I really wish there was a ladder for this meta.
Couldn't agree more. Alolan-Raichu is like Deoxys A, frail as fuck but doesn´t even matter when you´re outspeeding the entire metagame anyway. Raichu´s Rising Voltage actually rivals Deoxys A LO Psycho Boost to put things into perspective.
Couldn't agree more. Alolan-Raichu is like Deoxys A, frail as fuck but doesn´t even matter when you´re outspeeding the entire metagame anyway. Raichu´s Rising Voltage actually rivals Deoxys A LO Psycho Boost to put things into perspective.
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I think it's not worth using over just straight Band TTar. DD regular ttar lacks the speed tier and extra bulk that mega ttar has that would make it in a great sweeper.
I wouldn't recommend it personally. DD Mega Ttar is good due to having insane bulk and more powe along with screens bolstering its bulk. You're better off running Band regular ttar or even mixed with life orb to lure hippo with hydro pump which 2hkos.
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Announcement time!
Following the Scolipede and Thundurus quickban, Gengar and Kyurem have stood out to be tremendous threats to the tier. The buffs these mons received elevated them to insane heights, both Gengar and Kyurem have an offensive presence that is almost unrivaled in the entier tier. They are insanely hard to prepare for and put immense stress on teambuilding to the point where defensive play was almost impossible and you needed to play extremely aggressive against them to limit how often they could set up (Gengar) or click buttons to claim a kill (Kyurem). This lead to the decision that these mons needed to be voted on and unsurprisingly the votes were quite unanimous. Here are the results of the slate:
Despite Watermess not being available for the voting process the votes would not have changed. Meaning...
Gengar and Kyurem have been quickbanned from National Dex UU!
Gengar was banned due to having virtually 0 defensive counterplay and extremely limited offensive counterplay. The introduction of nasty plot to Gengar's movepool allowed it to easily set up behind a substitute and blast through teams that were not "prepared" for it. Z-Shadow Ball at +2 was capable of dismantling defensive teams like nothing, and the only real check for these teams was running max spdef mandibuzz which in itself had to keep itself healthy and not lose boots throughout the match so that it couldn't be chipped by stealth rocks. Carrying Focus Blast also meant it could 2hko Blissey easily. +2 Ghostium as well was capable of destroying offensive teams, ignoring priority by hiding behind a sub allowed it to completely outplay Bisharp and delete it with Focus Blast. Your best bet was to either use a scarfer/anything naturally faster than 110 or chip it enough where it was capable of being revenge killed by a Scizor bullet punch. With all this said Gengar was banned and found to be too oppressive for the metagame which resulted in its ban.
Kyurem was banned due to having perfect coverage against the entire tier and nigh unwallable power when accompanied by Specs. Kyurem was not played the same as Gengar for the most part, Kyurem was played a bit more methodical if you want to put it that way. Kyurem having a very high special attack accompanied by specs and strong stabs allowed it to pressure teams every game it was present in. If you played against Kyurem and made one bad play and Kyurem got in for free via momentum or a double then it usually claimed a kill or clicked a button and did absurd amounts of damage. It had its downsides of course, being hazard weak is incredibly lame and allows it to be revenge killed much easier than Gengar. Not to mention base 95 speed isn't the best. But the fact this mon had no good counterplay defensively besides bulky scizor, bronzong and blissey (which both lose to subroost) and you're forced to play a 50/50 when it comes in makes this mon extremely unhealthy. Which resulted in Kyurem being banned. So long space cowboy, nobody will miss you.
Following the Scolipede and Thundurus quickban, Gengar and Kyurem have stood out to be tremendous threats to the tier. The buffs these mons received elevated them to insane heights, both Gengar and Kyurem have an offensive presence that is almost unrivaled in the entier tier. They are insanely hard to prepare for and put immense stress on teambuilding to the point where defensive play was almost impossible and you needed to play extremely aggressive against them to limit how often they could set up (Gengar) or click buttons to claim a kill (Kyurem). This lead to the decision that these mons needed to be voted on and unsurprisingly the votes were quite unanimous. Here are the results of the slate:
Despite Watermess not being available for the voting process the votes would not have changed. Meaning...
Gengar and Kyurem have been quickbanned from National Dex UU!
Gengar was banned due to having virtually 0 defensive counterplay and extremely limited offensive counterplay. The introduction of nasty plot to Gengar's movepool allowed it to easily set up behind a substitute and blast through teams that were not "prepared" for it. Z-Shadow Ball at +2 was capable of dismantling defensive teams like nothing, and the only real check for these teams was running max spdef mandibuzz which in itself had to keep itself healthy and not lose boots throughout the match so that it couldn't be chipped by stealth rocks. Carrying Focus Blast also meant it could 2hko Blissey easily. +2 Ghostium as well was capable of destroying offensive teams, ignoring priority by hiding behind a sub allowed it to completely outplay Bisharp and delete it with Focus Blast. Your best bet was to either use a scarfer/anything naturally faster than 110 or chip it enough where it was capable of being revenge killed by a Scizor bullet punch. With all this said Gengar was banned and found to be too oppressive for the metagame which resulted in its ban.
Kyurem was banned due to having perfect coverage against the entire tier and nigh unwallable power when accompanied by Specs. Kyurem was not played the same as Gengar for the most part, Kyurem was played a bit more methodical if you want to put it that way. Kyurem having a very high special attack accompanied by specs and strong stabs allowed it to pressure teams every game it was present in. If you played against Kyurem and made one bad play and Kyurem got in for free via momentum or a double then it usually claimed a kill or clicked a button and did absurd amounts of damage. It had its downsides of course, being hazard weak is incredibly lame and allows it to be revenge killed much easier than Gengar. Not to mention base 95 speed isn't the best. But the fact this mon had no good counterplay defensively besides bulky scizor, bronzong and blissey (which both lose to subroost) and you're forced to play a 50/50 when it comes in makes this mon extremely unhealthy. Which resulted in Kyurem being banned. So long space cowboy, nobody will miss you.
Here is Watermess' vote btw if anyone wanted to know. Didn't see the ping earlier.
WE HAVE NEW SAMPLES
Hyper Offense build by Niadev, Baker and N_Mareanie -
Mega Diancie Bulky Offense build by Niadev, Baker and N_Mareanie -
DragMag build by Niadev, Baker and N_Mareanie -
SkarmBliss Stall build by Niadev, Baker and N_Mareanie -
MegaVenu + Celesteela Balance build by Niadev, Baker and N_Mareanie -
Hyper Offense build by Niadev, Baker and N_Mareanie -
Mega Diancie Bulky Offense build by Niadev, Baker and N_Mareanie -
DragMag build by Niadev, Baker and N_Mareanie -
SkarmBliss Stall build by Niadev, Baker and N_Mareanie -
MegaVenu + Celesteela Balance build by Niadev, Baker and N_Mareanie -
WE HAVE NEW SAMPLES
Hyper Offense build by Niadev, Baker and N_Mareanie -
Mega Diancie Bulky Offense build by Niadev, Baker and N_Mareanie -
DragMag build by Niadev, Baker and N_Mareanie -
SkarmBliss Stall build by Niadev, Baker and N_Mareanie -
MegaVenu + Celesteela Balance build by Niadev, Baker and N_Mareanie -
Ok I just want to point out the only contribution I had to the stall team is Amoonguss please don't break into my house and kill me for helping build sample team stall please I'm begging you
Also remember when I said scarf urshifu is amazing? Yeah, I think it being on every non HO/Stall team says it all lmao
Set compendium is outdated, i will be updating it for the tour. This message will get edited when it is fully up to date <3 .
Edit: Finished
Edit: Finished
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Before i get into this post i wanna say thanks to everyone joining the tour. This is high key hype <3. I wanna say first and foremost that this is not a post to say that i hate HDB or i think they should be banned, but more along how much they have impacted the tier! Also this might be a bit sloppy so i'm sorry.
The Impact On The Meta
Pretty much when NDUU was created everyone realized how important this item was. The tier dropped with insane amounts of mons that could abuse the utility these boots gave, a few to name are Rotom-H, Moltres, Starmie and many more loved being able to consistently come in safely and clear hazards or check a specific mon. This helped bulkier playstyles be pretty good in that meta. Though previously BO, Balance and Stall were very uncommon and completely overshadowed by HO and Offense due to the tier dropping with Zard X and Y, Mawile-Mega, Mega-Zam and many others. But, fast forward to now the tier is much more stable and the meta much much slower comparing to what it was before. Balance now is the best playstyle currently, which means bulkier boots abusers are seen much more and can thrive in this metagame. The mons listed previously + more are now even better than what they were before and i'll a bit in depth on a few of the abusers below.
Abusers
Bruh when someone says boots this is the first demon that comes to mind. Rotom-H was good in Gen-7 UU but this is a whole new level, an extremely good defensive typing (8 resistances/1 immunity), very flexible moveset when it comes to utility, a good wallbreaker with nasty plot and now u can add in an immunity to hazards. This item allows rotom to consistently check fairies, consistently pivot into Mega Manectric, Moltres (has to worry about toxic), Scizor, Mamoswine, Togekiss, Salamence and many more. This item also means Rotom is free to play a lot more aggressive and take advantage of the fact it has a pretty good offensive typing and Nasty Plot in it's moveset. Giving your team a very valuable Venusaur breaker and pivot in a single slot, this is a role believe it or not i feel most teams need. Especially in the current meta, cores like Diancie-Mega + Rotom-H are extremely strong because Rotom-H can deal with Venusaur and Scizor/Steela/Skarm which lets Diancie do Diancie things much easier.
Starmie despite having no weakness to hazards loves the ability to spin with no worries of taking hazard damage. I personally feel this item is mandatory on Bulky Starmie sets, leftovers gives longevity yes, but it has instant recovery in Recover and the utility of being able to check the stuff you need to check more often should never be overlooked. It allows Starmie to consistently come in and check shit like scarf Urshifu that is locked in CC or Surging Strikes, choice locked Nape, Keldeo and Cobalion. Accompanied with Natual Cure it lets Starmie be a status absorber for your team while not worrying about getting chipped throughout the game.
I'm not memeing when i say this, but do not use bulky defog moltres. It's really fuckin bad rn with ttar and Rotom-H on most teams, it really struggles to do what it wants which is check scizor and other steel tyoes abd defog. Though boots are really nice on offensive Moltres with U-Turn since you can just pivot out against them. This item allows Moltres to be a huge throughout the game due to roost giving it longevity and having a base 125 special attack with a pretty good offensive typing. While also giving your team a pretty potent scizor check if they aren't carrying the coveted Knock Off banded Sciz. Of course this item means Moltres misses out on the possible Z-Move it could be using, but the fact it doesn't take 50% on entry is enough for it to be warranted over Life Orb/Grass-Z. Most teams struggle against this set due to how consistently it can come in and out while either bringing in a Rotom-H or Ttar check or clicking a stab move and chunking one of your mons. There's not much else to say about Moltres tbh, it clicks stab moves or clicks bug move while checking some pretty big threats. Boots only made it's job much safer.
Yes this item is good on Bliss. This item allows Blissey to not worry about hazards chipping it down and gambling a roll to not get 2hko'd. It lets Blissey be Blissey, checking the many special threats in the tier much more consistently. This mon can literally be placed on most playstyles with this item and if you give it teleport it becomes obnoxious to play against cause of how often it can come in, check most special attackers in the tier and pivot out while having reliable recovery on the side AND having natural cute to status absorb. This mon is a fucking menace if you play it right.
Alo just like Blissey and Starmie appreciate this item despite not having any weakness to hazards. Alo unlike Blissey doesn't have Natural Cure so it fears the toxic spikes wearing it down if they happen to get set. But it also appreciates being able to check most of the physical attackers in the tier. Being able to consistently come in and check Nape, Sciz and many more while spreading burns or passing fat wishes to teammates is appreciated. I really don't have much to elaborate on as everything i said with Bliss pretty much applies here. Except for the fact that Alo has arguably more longevity due to Regenerator + Wishect.
Niche Abusers
Mantine really appreciates the addition of boots to its moveset. It's main role in the meta is to be a solid check to physical attackers like choice locked Urshifu, Nape, Scizor, Cobalion and be a hard counter to most offensive water types like Keldeo. It had issues before coming in constantly due to rocks hindering how often it could sponge hits. Not to mention it's extremely good at pressuring the many hazard setters with scald such as hippo and nidoking, though against special rockers having a calm nature with a bit of spdef investment helps. Mantine has extremely good role compression due to this, though if you want a better check to the mons listed before and already have a defogger you're better off using Jellicent. Due to jellicent not being 2hko'd by Scarf Urshifu thunder punch.
Mandibuzz imo was a lot better when Gengar was here, but it's still fairly decent. Mandibuzz enjoys boots due to it giving Mandibuzz the ability to check psychic types and fighting types more often. It allows Mandibuzz to easily pivot in on Urshifu and never worry about being 2hko'd by surging strikes (if scarf) as well as cucking breloom if they are SD + Spore due to overcoat. Not to mention never worrying about rocks means you never have to worry about getting 2hko'd by band infernape stabs, unless you take some slight prior chip damage.
Chandelure appreciates boots for a few reasons. The first main reason is that it never has to worry about being out of range of subs unless it takes a bunch of damage throughout the match. Sub CM Chandelure is arguable one of the better sets, this allows it to act as a late game wincon much better. The second reason is that if ur running flame body ur able to deal with scizors stabs a bit and threaten it back with a burn. Though Chandelure of course struggles currently with all the Tyranitars running around and it's low speed is fairly exploitable in the current meta.
Tentacruel just like Starmie really appreciates the addition of boots so it can spin more often. As well as be a solid check to Scizor, Infernape and choice locked Urshifu. The typing is also extremely valuable due to the fact it allows tentacruel to hard wall Keldeo which is a fairly huge threat, though it needs to be wary of Z Hyper Beam sets. Though it faces heavy competition from Starmie as a spinner currently, mainly because Starmie is faster and has instant recovery, along with the fact Starmie can pivot out with Flip Turn AND status absorb with natural cure. Starmie can also switch into Pert and Hippowdon much more comfortably than Tentacruel. Though this shouldn't undermine how good Tentacruel is at its specific niche.
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Because this threshold was changed with the release of Pokemon SS. You can find more about that here.
August tier shift!
Gains: Absolutely nothing, we actually got nothing.
Losses:
An actual pogchamp moment. ngl
Gains: Absolutely nothing, we actually got nothing.
Losses:
An actual pogchamp moment. ngl
Hi, i want to make a nom
B+ to A-
Thanks to Gengar and Kyurem's ban, Sylveon has become one of the best checks for Latias, Breelom and Weavile as she is no longer forced to carry SpDef on her sets and this ability to be a good check for those pokes is something Good at various balanced teams (especially when Sylveon is a great partner for Venusaur-Mega, which is great).
I also mention that Sylveon is never a deadweight in a battle (at least for me), because he always does something, for example offers wish support in emergencies or heal bell for pokemon with status issues or avoids substitute in gyarados / salamence, honestly I could go away and rise it to A rank, it offers a lot of contributions to your team, but I think A- it's ok, you can still press it, but I think it's a great choice in balanced and BO.
Despite all, Sylveon has competition with Blissey that is more bulky and pretty similar to she, Sylveon has a bunch of tools like Mystical Fire and a fairy typing that is pretty good.
Sylveon is also versatile, because he has enough freedom in the last slot, you can carry Toxic to weaken various walls such as Rotom Heat or Swampert, Yawn is to weaken setup sweepers, Calm Mind can be to be more powerful and so we have a semi offensive wisher, Mystical Fire wears down special attackers, and Heal Bell is for status issues.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexuu-1158714736
Btw, Sylveon improves a bit with the Ttar's rise too, because now Latias is way more common.
Thanks to Gengar and Kyurem's ban, Sylveon has become one of the best checks for Latias, Breelom and Weavile as she is no longer forced to carry SpDef on her sets and this ability to be a good check for those pokes is something Good at various balanced teams (especially when Sylveon is a great partner for Venusaur-Mega, which is great).
I also mention that Sylveon is never a deadweight in a battle (at least for me), because he always does something, for example offers wish support in emergencies or heal bell for pokemon with status issues or avoids substitute in gyarados / salamence, honestly I could go away and rise it to A rank, it offers a lot of contributions to your team, but I think A- it's ok, you can still press it, but I think it's a great choice in balanced and BO.
Despite all, Sylveon has competition with Blissey that is more bulky and pretty similar to she, Sylveon has a bunch of tools like Mystical Fire and a fairy typing that is pretty good.
Sylveon is also versatile, because he has enough freedom in the last slot, you can carry Toxic to weaken various walls such as Rotom Heat or Swampert, Yawn is to weaken setup sweepers, Calm Mind can be to be more powerful and so we have a semi offensive wisher, Mystical Fire wears down special attackers, and Heal Bell is for status issues.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexuu-1158714736
Btw, Sylveon improves a bit with the Ttar's rise too, because now Latias is way more common.
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