Little things you like about Pokémon

[Cobalt Empoleon]

You can always twist Super Luck on its head for Pokémon representing misfortune, i.e. getting more critical hits might be lucky for Honchkrow, but it’s very bad luck for its targets.

One thing I find kinda neat about Late Bloomers is that their level-based evolutions bookend the concept of evolution quite nicely for the player. Starter Pokémon and wild Pokémon found on the first couple of routes almost invariably evolve purely by level-up. As you progress through each game you’re introduced to other methods of evolution (time-based, location-based, trade, item, trade+item, level-up+conditions, etc.). Finally, the Late Bloomer brings us back to that core idea of Pokémon training: strength through training and perseverance.

Aside from Goodra’s annoying rain requirement, it’s nice that Late Bloomers act as a kind of pure final test of your patience when raising Pokémon, both to unlock their potential and to complete the Pokédex (although later gens arguably kinda ruin this by making the final form available in the wild or ratcheting up the levels at which you can catch the pre-evos so there’s almost no raising required).

 

[Codraroll]

although later gens arguably kinda ruin this by making the final form available in the wild or ratcheting up the levels at which you can catch the pre-evos so there’s almost no raising required

I'd argue this new trend actually ruins the pseudo-legendaries (sticking to the established term here) in several ways. The final evolution is made readily available only a couple of levels higher than that at which the base form is found, which takes away the entire presence of the pre-evolutions. You don't have to use Jangmo-o or Dreepy for more than a level or two before they evolve out of sight and out of mind. In the case of these two, but particularly the former, the middle evolution is even made somewhat pointless. You can catch Jangmo-o between levels 41 and 44, while Hakamo-o evolves at 45. This means you won't get to train Hakamo-o for more than three levels at most, and in half the cases (assuming an even distribution) it will evolve after being trained a single level. In Dreepy's case, at least there's 7-9 levels of Drakloak action before you get Dragapult, but that's not much either.

However, the real downside comes a generation or two down the road, when our hero the pseudo-legendary is out of the spotlight, and legible to be introduced to the player as a regular Pokémon at an earlier point in the game. Take Dratini, Larvitar, Bagon, or Gible, for instance. Recent games have made them available somewhat early (in Dratini's case, it goes all the way back to RBY, but I digress) where you can catch them and train them as partners throughout your adventure. This is where the perserverance aspect of the pseudo-legendaries comes into play with full force. They are initially weak and require massive investment to reach their final form, but when they do they can shred any opponents into tiny pieces. The middle evolutions are somewhat mediocre too, but help the poor 'mons pull their weight as the level curve of the game begins to climb.

... except for Deino, Goomy, and Dreepy, who don't climb with it. They will stay in their weak, pre-evolved forms until the very end of the game, and you have to grind quite a lot to be able to use the pseudo-legendary final form against the Elite Four. At least Deino has a somewhat helpful Ability, a decent movepool, and stats to pack a bit of punch as it grows. Goomy has the decency to not evolve later than level 40. It's late, but makes Sliggoo usable for a short bit. Dreepy, however, carries only a very limited handful of weak moves and has paper-thin defenses, giving it very little merit in battle. You're dragging around a Pokémon with Wingull-like stats until the doorstep of the Elite Four, and only then can the evolved form pull some weight in battles - except its stats aren't much to cheer for either, given how late in the game it is.

So the problem with the recent pseudo-legendaries is that you'll use the first stage for way too short in their debut games, and for way too long in subsequent games, while the middle stage doesn't stick around for long enough to be memorable or helpful in either case. The threshold for its first evolution is too high, and compensating by making it available at a high level is a poor solution. I'm not saying the old approach of making the pseudo-legendaries available late in the game, but at a low level, was perfect (it made them Exp. Share fodder so you weren't likely to use the base forms in battle at all until they caught up with your team, at which point they would be just about to evolve anyway), but it made the Pokémon much more flexible for use in subsequent games. Larvitar can pull its weight when you find it in USUM. Bagon is a reasonably good catch along Route 8 in XY. The event Beldum in ORAS prodded buttocks all the way, although it needed some event-exclusive moves to do so (Beldum's original movepool is ... not good). And of course, Platinum made Gible available quite early, and it became a mainstay on every player's Platinum team. But I don't see Deino or Dreepy being able to pull their weight during the story mode in future games. They require too much investment that's paid off way too late. Jangmo-o might be more usable, but it's at the very edge. Sometimes the flowers bloom too late to be worth all the gardening.

 

[R_N]

Deino at least has Hustle which, while there's an accuracy drop, gives it a power boost. And there's items to help compensate the accuracy a little. And also, has an actual move pool.

Goomy evolving at level 40 sucks but that at least seems to be playing with it being the "weakest dragon" by design. You really gotta put the effort into it. And then Jangmo-o went with the much more reasonable 35/45 evolutions; the problem was just the place it was put in its initial generation

But Dreepy really out here with nothing at all. It's such a bizarre design space, I can't understand it. If you really want to portray it as "useless" (since its just used as missiles when it grows up), then the Beldum route makes way more sense. A basically useless first stage but you only carry it around until level 20 (much earlier than other pseudos), then you have to wait a longer time (45) for it to evolve again.

 

[Worldie]

But Dreepy really out here with nothing at all. It's such a bizarre design space, I can't understand it. If you really want to portray it as "useless" (since its just used as missiles when it grows up), then the Beldum route makes way more sense. A basically useless first stage but you only carry it around until level 20 (much earlier than other pseudos), then you have to wait a longer time (45) for it to evolve again.

Honestly considering the placement and conditions to obtain Dreepy, it just feels it was put there as postgame-only pokemon. It's highly unlikely you acquire one while playing story (unless you REALLY are looking for it or stars align).

 

[Imperial Magala]

I think you can get Dreepy earlier through Max Raids. I got a Ralts for my in-game team though a raid, otherwise Ralts only show up during heavy fog, which is postgame. Is there a legitimate argument for locking weather behind story progress, besides making raids a more tempting offer, cause it makes Pokemon like Ralts and Mimikyu postgame only.

 

[CoolMan6001]

otherwise Ralts only show up during heavy fog

Actually, there's a 2% chance Ralts appears in the Rolling Fields as an overworld encounter when it's overcast.

 

[NaturalTropius]

I think you can get Dreepy earlier through Max Raids. I got a Ralts for my in-game team though a raid, otherwise Ralts only show up during heavy fog, which is postgame. Is there a legitimate argument for locking weather behind story progress, besides making raids a more tempting offer, cause it makes Pokemon like Ralts and Mimikyu postgame only.

I can second that. I got mine during the main story- after gym 3, actually! Although I have to STRONGLY agree about level for evolution. Jeez.

 

[Suspicious Derivative]

*Crack knuckles* I'll give a whack at it, I'll also include the Alolan forms too:
-snip-

Late reply, but I read all of this and I really appreciate the effort you put into writing all of that, though I don't agree with everything you said. And you went into so much detail that my own opinions are going to seem very lackluster if I ever get around to posting them. I also feel that this thread is the wrong place to post my thoughts on the Alola forms since I don't have positive things to say about all of them. Though I suppose I can share my thoughts on all the Galarian forms and the 11 Alolan forms I like. But not now either. Maybe at a later point.

Instead, here's something else that I like. I saw this on Serebii a few days ago:

The Pokémon Company International have been kind enough to offer us the exclusive official reveal of three of the cards in the upcoming set, Darkness Ablaze. This set is due out on August 14th. We can exclusively reveal the following cards, with their official description

I think this is really cool, TPCI decided to do an official reveal of three new cards through a fan site. While I am personally not into the TCG anymore, I would guess this is really cool for those who are. I don't know how common it is for them to reveal new things through fan sites, I think I have seen it happen a few times before in the past but not very often, so this is really cool.

And here's the rest of the info for the cards from Serebii:

Eternatus VMAX: Harness the power of infinity as Eternatus VMAX enters the TCG for the first time! The chilling Eternmax form of the Gigantic Pokémon possesses the Eternal Zone Ability, allowing you to place up to eight Dark-type Pokémon on your Bench. As their numbers grow, so does the power of the Dread End attack; doing 30 damage for each of your Dark-type Pokémon in play!
Galarian Stunfisk V: Galarian Stunfisk V lies in wait on the battlefield ready to snap! Its powerful jaws give it the Trapping Bite attack, which deals 60 damage and lays a painful surprise for your opponent. If their Pokémon damages Galarian Stunfisk, you place twelve damage counters on it. Best watch your step!
Arctozolt: A storm of Ice and Lightning brews with Arctozolt, one of the four Galar Fossil Pokémon! The Ability Biting Whirlpool zaps your opponent’s Pokémon with two damage counters if they attach any Energy from their hand. This Ability works even from the bench, so Arctozolt can be a real shock to the system for unwary players!

And the cards themselves:

Large

Yes it is all on Serebii but I decided to include it here as well just to make this post more complete.

 

[Ironmage]

Can somebody explain why Eternatus is a Dark type? I recognize that Poison isn't in the tcg, but I think of it as being replaced by Psychic or Grass. It really stands out that it suddenly has a weakness instead of a resistance to fighting.

 

[Nokocchi]

Can somebody explain why Eternatus is a Dark type? I recognize that Poison isn't in the tcg, but I think of it as being replaced by Psychic or Grass. It really stands out that it suddenly has a weakness instead of a resistance to fighting.

For the Gen VIII TCG Poison types are now Dark instead of Psychic(like Gen IV-VII) or Grass(like Gen I-III).

Additionally, the Fairy type was removed completely and rolled into Psychic.

If you REALLY want to see a weird card typing, look at the first HGSS set that made Lugia a Water type card.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Additionally, the Fairy type was removed completely and rolled into Psychic.

Wait, what? They removed Fairy? Why? Like, okay, I get maybe not wanting to have Fairy Energy but they could do what they did with Dragon-types and just have them use the other Types Energy cards.

 

[R_N]

Wait, what? They removed Fairy? Why? Like, okay, I get maybe not wanting to have Fairy Energy but they could do what they did with Dragon-types and just have them use the other Types Energy cards.

Dragon is also gone.

They wanted to clean up the weakness system a little. Dragon & Fairy were both in kind of weird spots in the TCG. Dragon was only weak to itself and Fairy (after Fairy got introduced). Fairy was strong only against Dragon, resistant to Dark, weak to Steel.

So they dropped the 2 extraneous types, shuffled who counted as what type and they reworked the resistance/weaknesses of some of the other types and the resistance modifer got buffed.

The funny thing is they still have to print Fairy energy until everything rotates out, but it doesn't wind up in the sets themselves.

e: Also if we're going to be frank....dragon as a type probably shouldnt have existed. I get they wanted tos hake things up but they were so awkward. Weak only to themselves, strong only against themselves and they all had this really awwkard energy requirements.

 

[Pikachu315111]

They wanted to clean up the weakness system a little. Dragon & Fairy were both in kind of weird spots in the TCG. Dragon was only weak to itself and Fairy (after Fairy got introduced). Fairy was strong only against Dragon, resistant to Dark, weak to Steel.

So they dropped the 2 extraneous types, shuffled who counted as what type and they reworked the resistance/weaknesses of some of the other types and the resistance modifer got buffed.

Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, guess it's kind of too late to introduce new Types and not have them clash with older sets still in rotation.

Maybe instead of introducing new Types they could do what Yu-Gi-Oh does and include a little trait box that mentions if a Pokemon is another Type and then make Trainer/Support cards that work with those additional Traits (as well as Moves and Abilities); could even make special Energy Cards for those Traits. That way they don't mess with the TCG Type Chart but can do things with the other Types in the games.

 

[R_N]

Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, guess it's kind of too late to introduce new Types and not have them clash with older sets still in rotation.

Maybe instead of introducing new Types they could do what Yu-Gi-Oh does and include a little trait box that mentions if a Pokemon is another Type and then make Trainer/Support cards that work with those additional Traits (as well as Moves and Abilities); could even make special Energy Cards for those Traits. That way they don't mess with the TCG Type Chart but can do things with the other Types in the games.

The series does "traits" like this (ie Ultra Beast or Team ____ pokemon) very briefly every so often, if they wanted to do this it would be there the whole lifespan of the game. Its a lot of extra support and complexity to put on top of the game, that you have to support for much longer, for...no real reason.

 

[Kurona]

Even disregarding all those changes, I definitely think dark fits better than psychic or grass for Eternatus. It's maybe less accurate but it would just look weird seeing the grass icon on it, y'know?

 

[Nokocchi]

e: Also if we're going to be frank....dragon as a type probably shouldnt have existed. I get they wanted tos hake things up but they were so awkward. Weak only to themselves, strong only against themselves and they all had this really awwkard energy requirements.

They introduced Dragon Type cards in 2012 because it was the year of the Dragon on the Chinese Zodiac. While this was the second one Pokemon has been around for, during the first in 2000 only the Dratini line and Kingdra existed back then, It was Gen V by then and there was plenty of Dragon types to make such a thing feasible.

Hilariously, with all of the people calling the Pokemon TCG a Magic the Gathering rip-off in the early days of the game, Dragon cards were very magic-like. In Magic gold-colored cards were cards that needed mana of multiple colors to be used, and there was no gold colored mana, much like Dragon cards were gold-colored and used two or more energies of other types instead of having its own.

I will say though that even when Dragon types were Colorless, many of them have been using multiple kinds of energies since the Dratini/Dragonair/Dragonite cards in the late Gen II e-Expedition set, which was released in Japan in 2001 and internationally in 2002. All three cards used a combination of Electric and Water energy.

 

[Codraroll]

Honestly considering the placement and conditions to obtain Dreepy, it just feels it was put there as postgame-only pokemon. It's highly unlikely you acquire one while playing story (unless you REALLY are looking for it or stars align).

Yeah, and that's fine for the purposes of Sword and Shield. Locking the pseudo-legendary to the postgame only was done with Larvitar and Beldum too in the past.

However, Dreepy is explicitly made to be pretty much useless except in the postgame, as if the developers didn't even want players to have the option to trade it over. That decision will affect Dreepy's usability in future games, unless it is later altered to a degree other pseudo-legendaries weren't. In Alola you find Larvitar in Diglett's Cave, Goomy in Lush Jungle, and Metang on Mt. Hokulani. Kalos gave you Bagon on Route 8 and Dratini along Route 21. Deino wander Meteor Falls in ORAS. Pseudo-legendaries have a tendency to be added as regular, but rare encounters in games after their introduction, where you can capture them during the story and use them in your adventure. They tend to require a bit of babying, but can usually hold their own in battle thanks to their typing, stats, or movepool, especially after evolving if that's an option. And so, as R_N explained, even the worst of these has qualities Dreepy severely lacks. Its stats are atrocious and its movepool practically non-existent. Its ability doesn't compensate. And it evolves too late to be redeemed by an evolved form. Beldum, Gible, and Jangmo-o all reach their final forms at a lower level than Dreepy's first evolution.

This means that Dreepy won't be a useful companion in future games even if it were made available to players early on. It will either be dead weight worse than Noibat in USUM, or stay relegated to an introduction in the late forties-levels near the end of the game. The choices made around its availability in SwSh will impact it in all future games to come, and it's getting it worse than all the pseudos that came before it.

 

[Pikachu315111]

This means that Dreepy won't be a useful companion in future games even if it were made available to players early on. It will either be dead weight worse than Noibat in USUM, or stay relegated to an introduction in the late forties-levels near the end of the game. The choices made around its availability in SwSh will impact it in all future games to come, and it's getting it worse than all the pseudos that came before it.

Considering Dreepy's lore it can probably be kept till an end game area only accessible by water. Like if I would have placed Dreepy somewhere in Galar it would be somewhere on Route 9 where Wild Levels range from 38 to 44, meaning you'd only have Dreepy for 12-6 levels before evolving to a Drakloak and then 10 more to a Dragupult... that is if you just don't shove Exp. Candy down its throat to get it where you want it to be.

If Dreepy existed in previous games other locations could be

Kanto: Route 20
Johto: Whirl Islands
Hoenn: Route 133
Sinnoh: Route 213
Unova: Route 18 (BW), Route 21 (B2W2)
Kalos: Azure Bay
Alola: Poni Breaker Coast

 

[Worldie]

However, Dreepy is explicitly made to be pretty much useless except in the postgame, as if the developers didn't even want players to have the option to trade it over. That decision will affect Dreepy's usability in future games, unless it is later altered to a degree other pseudo-legendaries weren't.

Well yes, but also no. It's not really the only case of pokemon that really isn't meant to be used in game.
See gen 7 Bagon for example, which you can obtain ridicolously early and... from what I heard, it sucks. Even farming the 1% SoS Salamence ends up being a mediocre pokemon that's just carried by its BST.

I don't think there's anything wrong with certain pokemon essentially "locked" to late/postgame scenarios. Besides, nowadays Pokemon games tend to have a lategame & postgame story that do take place on levels hovering from 50 to 70ish, so it's not like those "late bloomers" can't be used if you're willing to get them.
Dreepy doesn't really strike me as a "noibat case", mainly cause it's a pseudo-lege and they tend (not always, but usually) to be relegated to postgame areas to begin with.

 

[R_N]

Regardless that thing has absolutely zero business evolving at level 50

 

[Siggu]

Well yes, but also no. It's not really the only case of pokemon that really isn't meant to be used in game.
See gen 7 Bagon for example, which you can obtain ridicolously early and... from what I heard, it sucks. Even farming the 1% SoS Salamence ends up being a mediocre pokemon that's just carried by its BST.

I won't deny Bagon is mediocre in Gen VII (I used one in USUM and was definetly subpar until I got the Eviolite) but at least it's usable. Dreepy, on the other hand, is the worst traits of Tynamo and Noibat combined.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Regardless that thing has absolutely zero business evolving at level 50

So let's look at all the Levels which Late Bloomers evolve at from the lowest to highest:

Beldum (Level 20) Metang (Level 45) Metagross
Gible (Level 24) Gabite (Level 48) Garchomp
Jangmo-o (Level 35) Hakamo-o (Level 45) Kommo-o
Bagon (Level 30) Shelgon (Level 50) Flygon Salamence
Dratini (Level 30) Dragonair (Level 55) Dragonite
Larvitar (Level 30) Pupitar (Level 55) Tyranitar
Goomy (Level 40) Sliggoo (Level 50) Goodra
Dreepy (Level 50) Drakloak (Level 60) Dragapult
Deino (Level 50) Zweilous (Level 64) Hydreigon

... Okay so when I did this I thought we were going to see some kind of pattern and/or consistency...

I'm going to guess the Levels were probably to scale with the difficulty of the generation they're from, but GF doesn't bother re-adjusting evolution levels so doing it this way it looks like a mess.

Let me see if by averaging all these numbers I can come up with something that maybe could make sense GF could default the Levels to:

Basic to Mid: 20+24+35+30+30+30+40+50+50= 309 / 9 = 34.3
Mid to Final: 45+48+45+50+55+55+50+60+64= 475 / 9 = 52.4

Yeah, that looks good. I've come to the conclusion that no Basic Stage Late Bloomer should evolve at a Level higher than 35 and no Mid Stage Late Bloomer should evolve at a Level higher than 53:

• Beldum, Gible, Jangmo-o & Bagon are a-okay!
• Dratini, Larvitar & Goomy break one of the rules at some point but it's not that bending so they can be given a pass (but Goomy has that annoying gimmick it needs to be raining which to some may push it over the edge of acceptable...).
• Deino and Dreepy are just unacceptable. Unless they're always going to be placed late game/post game it's just stupid to have them evolve at such a high level to their MID stage!

 

[Merritt]

Why does Beldum evolve so early compared to the other pseudos, 20 compared to the usual 30 up to that point? Note of course that Beldum is postgame exclusive in its introductory generation, so it's definitely not due to the point in the game it's obtained like Gible may be. The common argument given is that Beldum is pretty much useless prior to evolution, due to its Take Down lock.

This of course is carried over to the similarly limited Dreepy, who evolves at an equally reasonable level of 50.

 

[R_N]

Why does Beldum evolve so early compared to the other pseudos, 20 compared to the usual 30 up to that point? Note of course that Beldum is postgame exclusive in its introductory generation, so it's definitely not due to the point in the game it's obtained like Gible may be. The common argument given is that Beldum is pretty much useless prior to evolution, due to its Take Down lock.

This of course is carried over to the similarly limited Dreepy, who evolves at an equally reasonable level of 50.

Much earlier I said that Dreepy should evolve at level 20 because it was basically in the same boat as Beldum: useless

Beldum only knows Take Down. That's it. It took until Platinum to get any move tutors and even by gen 6, move tutors (& TRs, presumably, when it comes in the Tundra) are the only way it learns moves other than Take Down. And so: it evolves at 20, because there's nothing else you can really do with it other than baby it and get some potshots in, and then at level 20 you get a still-not-great pokemon but one that can fend for itself before reaching the coveted-gyarados-but-more that is Metagross.

By design it's basically magikarp if magikarp was a pseudo.

 

[lucariomaster2]

Another factor that needs to be considered when looking at the evolution levels of pseudo-legendary Pokemon is the level curve of the games they're found in.

For example, consider Platinum. Gible can be caught and evolved when you only have 2 badges, and while Gabite is a fine Pokemon when you first get it, it'll be in that stage for most of your adventure. But due to its second evolution being attained at level 48, if you grind a bit in Mt. Coronet you can kick Cyrus's ass with a newly evolved Garchomp and then still have the eighth badge, Victory Road, and Elite Four to enjoy. Compare this to Black and White; the Elite Four's strongest Pokemon are all level 50. That is, the first time that Deino evolves the first time. Sorry to disappoint you if you wanted a Hydreigon - you'll have to be content with getting pummeled by Ghetsis's (which, incidentally, is 10 levels underleveled, as if to rub it in even more).

But as this is the "little things you like about Pokemon" thread and not the other one, I'd like to talk about my favourite pseudo-legendary instead.

The first point I have for Metagross is that it breaks the mold. Every other Pseudo-legendary is Dragon-type except for Tyranitar, which is still obviously reptilian/draconic in nature; Metagross, on the other hand, is a hyperintelligent, robot-like creature. I feel like in a world where the other pseudo-legendaries were rampaging and causing wanton destruction, Metagross would be built specifically to stop them. Regardless, it's different, and it stands out accordingly.

Second, imagine that you're playing Ruby or Sapphire for the first time. It's been tough, but you've finally managed to fight your way to the end of the Pokemon league, to the final battle against Steven. He opens with Skarmory - not a common Pokemon, but one that you've battled before in Fortree City. He follows up with Cradily and Armaldo - two strange Pokemon indeed, but ones that you eventually realize are the evolved forms of the Lileep or Anorith that you picked up ages ago, tried to use, and then promptly boxed. Then comes Claydol, which hardly warrants a raised eyebrow, followed by Aggron which you might realize is the final evolution of Aron, that Steel-type you encountered all the way back in Granite Cave. All of these Pokemon, even if you've never seen them before, it's easy enough to guess their types and dispatch them accordingly.

Then comes Metagross, a Pokemon that looks nothing like anything you've battled before. You try to hit it, but its defenses are so high that it takes practically no damage, all the while obliterating your team with Meteor Mash, a move you had never heard of before. You at manage to take it down and become the champion, but the question still remains: "Where on Earth in Hoenn do I find this Pokemon? I want to catch one myself!" But alas, the Pokedex merely displays those two dreaded words "AREA UNKNOWN".

Some time after, you're wandering around Hoenn and for some reason enter Steven's house in Mossdeep City. There, you find a Pokeball containing a... Beldum, whatever that is. But looking at its summary, it definitely looks familiar. And then you see that it's level 5 and can learn exactly one move. It's going to be a long road, but if you persevere, the reward will definitely be worth it.

Looping back to, and somewhat contradicting the first point I made in this post, I don't think there's anything wrong necessarily with pseudo-legendary Pokemon being either explicitly restricted to postgame or made impractical to use during the story. In fact, I think it's great design for the champion to have that one awe-inspiring Pokemon that you've never seen anything like before, thereby making you want to get it yourself and encouraging postgame exploration for it. Although this happened as well with Garchomp, Dragapult, and Hydreigon on the teams of champions or champion-equivalents and then Dragonite and Salamence used by final E4 members, Metagross has the best execution because it's guaranteed to be the first time you see any member of its evolution line at all.

In conclusion: Metagross's first reveal on Steven's team is terrifying, and when you finally get the opportunity afterwards to try to raise it you're stuck with the near-useless Beldum and the below-average Metang for ages, but when it fully evolves, it is fully worth the effort.

(Also: Everyone who found a Bagon in Hoenn on your own without looking at a guide, raise your hand. Yeah, me neither.)