I was talking about Diamond and Pearl without the inclusion of Platinum.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
As did I. Only reason I have a Switch Lite is because I wanted to play Shield. I should really get more games, but my main goal was to play Pokemon (and luckily they provided a cheaper alternate to buying an entire Switch, plus I got the special Sword & Shield Lite to boot).
However what confuses me is Wcstyles buying two Switches (and sounds like he's going to buy the normal Switch and not Switch Lites). Yes, I agree, it's their money and they can do what they want with it... but just saying a Nintendo Online subscription, Bank subscription, HOME subscription, and DLC combined are all still cheaper than an additional Switch (and they technically don't need the Bank, HOME, nor DLC subscription). Of course this doesn't change they don't feel Sword & Shield are worth getting so that's a moot point. And if they're thinking of getting a second Switch because they don't have someone else to play with or a good internet, personally I'd say completing the dex isn't worth it. You get nothing but a congratulation from GF you did it. Stinks there's some Pokemon you won't be able to play with, though not worth an entire second console to use them.
Agreed, I do think the new Pokemon should get the spotlight thus be one of the more common ones. Like if they have two new Pokemon on the route, fine, maybe make one of them rarer, though at least one of them should be right there to get. Then again, with so many Pokemon I'm sure they could find at least a few popular older mons that they could have be the rarer encounter; in a way it gives the older mon a bit of a prestige you need to work to get it instead of going with the easier to get new Pokemon.
As for alerting a player of certain Pokemon on the route and/or how to get them, well we got all those NPCs just standing around who 99% of the time say nothing useful. Maybe give us the option of asking an NPC what Pokemon they've seen or where they got their Pokemon and they can tell us "This route has a small nest of this Pokemon", "This morning I saw this Pokemon munching on the Berry before running off", "I got my partner on the route over", "if you want this Pokemon you're going to need to do the following", etc..
Eh. While they did use the Mega Pokemon to "fill" out the number of new Pokemon, there is a difference between a new alternate form and a super transformation. Mega Pokemon are merely an extension on the base Pokemon so barely feels different from it while a Regional Variant has had some notable changes done to it which makes it play differently from the normal form of that Pokemon.
Oh yeah, in addition to what others have said, don't forget that most of the Megas weren't even usable in the main game in XY for... unfathomable reasons.
Especially by the fact that it is supposed to be the main gimmick of XY, and yet only the player, a Gym Leader, Lysandre and the Champion uses one. None of your rivals even bothers to use one, making things pretty one-sided against them. This made Mega Evolution more like an afterthought than a real deal.
A lack of third version only seals the deal with the only Gen 6 Pokémon that have one is Diancie. All because GF wanted to get Gen 7 ready for the 20th anniversary, from what I recall.
Honestly, this could be why I felt as if USUM (idk about SM so don't quote me on that) felt more developed balance-wise. A lot of NPCs use Z-Moves (Kahunas, E4, Hau, hell, even some random Ace Trainers, along with the Route kahunas), the NPCs use legit teams (idk bout XY again, so don't quote me) and the fights felt more difficult if you didn't know what to bring to beat them. Could be just me, but I personally found Gen 7 to utilize its concepts better than other games.
And that's only cause they took development time from XY and pushed it to Gen 7
I'm going to fire a potentially unpopular opinion.
I think it is time we stop demonizing GameFreaks for their decisions on the subject of the Pokemon games, and start wondering if The Pokemon Company International is a company that has become too big for their own good.
I think it's time to think that GameFreaks probably has no faults in the issues of the games, while the issues are in the fact we get presented with Games that do not actually exist because possibly at the other edge of the marketing process, they have no idea of what's being developed in first place, or are so far from the actual public that they do not understand what the public wants.
For those unfamiliar with how TPCI works, the company was originally called "The Pokemon Center Company" and was founded in 1998 by 3 other companyes (GameFreaks, Creatures. Inc and Nintendo) in order to manage the marketing of the merchandise of the growing Pokemon franchise (at the time, it was just around Gold and Silver release)
To this day, the company is a independant company that manages the entirety of the marketing of the franchise, from videogames to anime to manga to eevee dolls and whatever other Pokemon-related thing you can think of, with Tsunekazu Ishihara as CEO and president.
The revenue of this company gets split between GF, Nintendo and whatever's left of Creatures Inc, in % not know to the public as far as I know. However, despite the fact their revenue goes to the founders, the company is independant and basically owns the decisionmaking when it comes to all sort of marketing.
As I was listening to some podcast analysis today, they made a interesting point about how the company might have became SO big, with processes so huge, that in the last 3 or so years they've starting to lose pieces in between the creation of a product, and its announcement to the public, which has also caused some of the latest big disasters in communication (such as the announcements of Let's Go, Sword and Shield, and recently Unite).
We have had situations of clear inconsistencies between what gets announced, often having separate announcements with contrasting informations like in the case of Sword and Shield, and mistakes so bad that they can't even be considered as "intentionally hiding informations".
For example, taking the 3 biggest failures I just mentioned.
Pokemon Let's Go:
Those games, nowadays appreciated much more than at their announcement, got announced as "the next main line games". It is funny how simply labeling them "main line" is actually what is getting them tons of criticism that otherwise they would never had. The lack of abilities/items, incomplete pokedex missing even evolutions, weird interactions between 3d pokemon and 2d map, those are all things noone would have cared if the announcement stated "a different way to play Pokemon Yellow". Do you see anyone complaining that Pokemon Mystery Dungeon remake lacks part of the pokedex? Do you see anyone complaining that Pokken lacks abilities and items? No, because those got announced as spinoffs and people do not feel the need to compare them to main line series. To this day, Let's Go is perceived as spinoff, and actually relatively well received, to the point there is a mild request for sequels in Jotho.
Pokemon Sword and Shield (and their DLCs):
Multiple inconsistencies here, biggest ones were obviously the fact and the way the lack of National Dex was announced, the saying that the reasoning for the lack of pokemon was improving on the graphics, and the fact a recent interview confirmed that DLCs were in development way before SwSh release, so it was already planned to re-introduce the pokemon in smaller batches. Once more, I have issues faulting this miscommunication to attempt to predate: the fact the returning pokemon are *free* isn't any different from the past, outside of requiring a one-off subscription to get them to gen 8 (I won't go over this as we've talked about it enough and it's beyond this point anyway), but why would you not reveal right away that the missing pokemon are returning to create further hype for the arrival of DLCs or future titles and even get early preorders?
In this case, I see multiple communication issues:
- It is clear that who made the script for the SwSh reveal perceived that it wasn't important to let fans know that "you will be able to get your favourites eventually"
- It is also clear that they announced features that were not in the game (like the so called massive graphic update, and it could be seen straight up from the gameplay trailers)
- They didn't even actually provide the reasoning to the people to deal with the press, with the result not even Masuda apparently knew (or was not allowed to reveal) that there was no actual cut, simply they would be coming later, and we had that "funny" week where literally every interview had a different reasoning for the natdex cut.
Pokemon Unite:
The latest announcement, which managed to outshadow even SwSh when it comes to dislikes. Gave me a lot if "Diablo Immortals" vibes here: announce a big reveal a week sooner, leave the press and fans to wonder, then reveal a... mobile moba, showcasing basically a League of Legend Dominion map reskinned with mediocre quality Pokemon design.
In this case I can see Tencent pressuring for a "big" reveal obviously, but even then, the way it was orchestrated was awful: rather than announce a "big pokemon project" and fool the fans in thinking it was finally the gen 4 remakes or a let's go jotho, why not specify right away that it was a completely new approach to Pokemon? They did announce collaborations with huge companyes in the past (like that huge movie studio) and didn't pretend it was completely gamebreaking development.
Back to my main point after those examples.
I think that TPCI's marketing machine has become so ridicolously big, they have become disconnected from both GameFreaks AND the actual Pokemon fans: to the point that in the last 4 or so years, lot of announcements and interviews have featured incomplete or flat out wrong infos, multiple of those causing backlash if not turning fans away from trusting the franchise.
I think it is time we stop blaming GameFreaks and Masuda for the problems the Pokemon games have had lately, because in my opinion, GameFreaks is suffering from a disconnection between them, the marketing section, and the players, and Masuda specifically is basically just being used as scapegoat that has to tell the script his marketing section gave him, even if he doesn't agree with it.
TPCI doesn't actually know what their fan want, nor does actually know what's actually being developed, because the franchise has became so huge they have issues managing the ridicolous amount of merchandise, anime, manga and videogames that are being produced, and are basically operating on the belief that "it's Pokemon and everyone will like it". They do not even do it maliciously: they literally have no idea on how to manage a franchise that grew exponentially in the last 20 years since their creation.
I think it is time we stop demonizing GameFreaks for their decisions on the subject of the Pokemon games, and start wondering if The Pokemon Company International is a company that has become too big for their own good.
I think it's time to think that GameFreaks probably has no faults in the issues of the games, while the issues are in the fact we get presented with Games that do not actually exist because possibly at the other edge of the marketing process, they have no idea of what's being developed in first place, or are so far from the actual public that they do not understand what the public wants.
For those unfamiliar with how TPCI works, the company was originally called "The Pokemon Center Company" and was founded in 1998 by 3 other companyes (GameFreaks, Creatures. Inc and Nintendo) in order to manage the marketing of the merchandise of the growing Pokemon franchise (at the time, it was just around Gold and Silver release)
To this day, the company is a independant company that manages the entirety of the marketing of the franchise, from videogames to anime to manga to eevee dolls and whatever other Pokemon-related thing you can think of, with Tsunekazu Ishihara as CEO and president.
The revenue of this company gets split between GF, Nintendo and whatever's left of Creatures Inc, in % not know to the public as far as I know. However, despite the fact their revenue goes to the founders, the company is independant and basically owns the decisionmaking when it comes to all sort of marketing.
As I was listening to some podcast analysis today, they made a interesting point about how the company might have became SO big, with processes so huge, that in the last 3 or so years they've starting to lose pieces in between the creation of a product, and its announcement to the public, which has also caused some of the latest big disasters in communication (such as the announcements of Let's Go, Sword and Shield, and recently Unite).
We have had situations of clear inconsistencies between what gets announced, often having separate announcements with contrasting informations like in the case of Sword and Shield, and mistakes so bad that they can't even be considered as "intentionally hiding informations".
For example, taking the 3 biggest failures I just mentioned.
Pokemon Let's Go:
Those games, nowadays appreciated much more than at their announcement, got announced as "the next main line games". It is funny how simply labeling them "main line" is actually what is getting them tons of criticism that otherwise they would never had. The lack of abilities/items, incomplete pokedex missing even evolutions, weird interactions between 3d pokemon and 2d map, those are all things noone would have cared if the announcement stated "a different way to play Pokemon Yellow". Do you see anyone complaining that Pokemon Mystery Dungeon remake lacks part of the pokedex? Do you see anyone complaining that Pokken lacks abilities and items? No, because those got announced as spinoffs and people do not feel the need to compare them to main line series. To this day, Let's Go is perceived as spinoff, and actually relatively well received, to the point there is a mild request for sequels in Jotho.
Pokemon Sword and Shield (and their DLCs):
Multiple inconsistencies here, biggest ones were obviously the fact and the way the lack of National Dex was announced, the saying that the reasoning for the lack of pokemon was improving on the graphics, and the fact a recent interview confirmed that DLCs were in development way before SwSh release, so it was already planned to re-introduce the pokemon in smaller batches. Once more, I have issues faulting this miscommunication to attempt to predate: the fact the returning pokemon are *free* isn't any different from the past, outside of requiring a one-off subscription to get them to gen 8 (I won't go over this as we've talked about it enough and it's beyond this point anyway), but why would you not reveal right away that the missing pokemon are returning to create further hype for the arrival of DLCs or future titles and even get early preorders?
In this case, I see multiple communication issues:
- It is clear that who made the script for the SwSh reveal perceived that it wasn't important to let fans know that "you will be able to get your favourites eventually"
- It is also clear that they announced features that were not in the game (like the so called massive graphic update, and it could be seen straight up from the gameplay trailers)
- They didn't even actually provide the reasoning to the people to deal with the press, with the result not even Masuda apparently knew (or was not allowed to reveal) that there was no actual cut, simply they would be coming later, and we had that "funny" week where literally every interview had a different reasoning for the natdex cut.
Pokemon Unite:
The latest announcement, which managed to outshadow even SwSh when it comes to dislikes. Gave me a lot if "Diablo Immortals" vibes here: announce a big reveal a week sooner, leave the press and fans to wonder, then reveal a... mobile moba, showcasing basically a League of Legend Dominion map reskinned with mediocre quality Pokemon design.
In this case I can see Tencent pressuring for a "big" reveal obviously, but even then, the way it was orchestrated was awful: rather than announce a "big pokemon project" and fool the fans in thinking it was finally the gen 4 remakes or a let's go jotho, why not specify right away that it was a completely new approach to Pokemon? They did announce collaborations with huge companyes in the past (like that huge movie studio) and didn't pretend it was completely gamebreaking development.
Back to my main point after those examples.
I think that TPCI's marketing machine has become so ridicolously big, they have become disconnected from both GameFreaks AND the actual Pokemon fans: to the point that in the last 4 or so years, lot of announcements and interviews have featured incomplete or flat out wrong infos, multiple of those causing backlash if not turning fans away from trusting the franchise.
I think it is time we stop blaming GameFreaks and Masuda for the problems the Pokemon games have had lately, because in my opinion, GameFreaks is suffering from a disconnection between them, the marketing section, and the players, and Masuda specifically is basically just being used as scapegoat that has to tell the script his marketing section gave him, even if he doesn't agree with it.
TPCI doesn't actually know what their fan want, nor does actually know what's actually being developed, because the franchise has became so huge they have issues managing the ridicolous amount of merchandise, anime, manga and videogames that are being produced, and are basically operating on the belief that "it's Pokemon and everyone will like it". They do not even do it maliciously: they literally have no idea on how to manage a franchise that grew exponentially in the last 20 years since their creation.
Last edited:
You're not going to convince me that GF has no part in making these bad decisions. Sure, maybe not all of them are their decisions, and I'll even give a passing shrug to they were on a tight time limit. Honestly I think Lockstin did a good analysis of both side of the arguments and their merits.
But hey, I have no problem spreading the blame around.
I'm up to share the blame or even take upon the questionable design decisions on GF themselves (after all, they make the games). I definitely think that the whole "they purposely advertise games that aren't what they say" however is nothing in their fault, and that Masuda is indeed a scapegoat (They already hate him, let's get him hated more, who cares).
Also thanks for the vid, i'll be watching it at some point soon(tm).
So what you're saying is we should kill the anime, since they focus too much on that for the cash cow it is
You'd be surprised. The big cash cow is actually the merchandise.
Yes, those fancy Eevee plushies you can buy in store.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_media_franchises
or if you prefer
Might as well. They never send the good ones internationally anyway
While this is true, it's possible to import; I've purchased charms of all the Ultra Beasts (though i like them too much to actually put them with my keys
)Regarding Worldie's post, I think that TPCi is definitely responsible for some major gaffes in marketing that put the series in general down a bit in the public's eyes, and is (from my understanding) largely the reason why we're getting yearly "mainline" Pokémon games, the "yearly" bit quite possibly contributing to a lack of polish on Game Freak's most recent games. Merchandising is quite lucrative, but it also causes some creative ideas to fall to the side because they're not "marketable" enough (I don't have any examples in mind but I know I've read about them from other franchises).
On the other hand, I think Game Freak is also responsible for questionable decisions, and has proven their inability (or unwillingness) to add features to their games that have become commonplace today. Good online options are kind of a rarity from Nintendo, but it's still baffling how a series that's founded on interconnectivity has some of the worst online interaction options I've seen.
Late reply time again!
Either way, I don't really agree with you about everything.
Megas and regional variants are completely different from each other in terms of the actual mechanic, I agree about that.
But I disagree about regional variants being more different in terms of design and general mechanics though. First, regarding designs. I think there are a lot of regional variants that look too similar to the orginal form, which is one of my issues with (some) regional variants. The most notable being several Alolan forms such as Geodude, Graveler, Diglett, Rattata and Raticate. From the Galarian forms, the two most notable so far are Slowpoke and Yamask. And even so, I think most other regional variants are still very similar to the original form to the point that you can still tell what Pokémon it is supposed to be. Take Ninetales, for instance. The main difference between original and Alolan Ninetales is the color. Alolan Ninetales also has a little more fluff (or what you should call it) on its fur. Other than that, they are both Nine-tailed foxes. Personally, I think the only regonal variant to be different from the original form to the point that I would have thought it was a new Pokémon rather than a regional variant if the game hadn't told me what it is first is Galarian Meowth. While some parts of it clearly resemble original Meowth, the overall design is way too different.
That said, I think many Megas look far too similar to the base forms as well. The most notable are Pidgeot and the Kanto starters (minus MCX). I remember when I first saw the Kanto starter Megas getting revealed, I thought they looked too similar to their base forms. Looking through all Megas now, I don't think there's any Mega that looks like it could be a completely different Pokémon in the same way as Galarian Meowth. But I guess that's a good thing, Megas and regional variants both need to have resemblance to the original Pokémon.
Regarding stat spreads, that is another one of the issues I have with most regional variants so far. In almost all cases, their stat spreads are too similar or exactly the same as the original form. Taking Ninetales as the example once more, the only difference in terms of base stats is that Alolan Ninetales shifts 9 points from Attack to Speed compared to regular. Now I don't feel like going through every single regional variant, but I think the one that did stat shifts on a bigger level is Galarian Slowbro which has a bit more Attack than Defenses compared to regular Slowbro. Overall, I think regional variants have a lot more potential to be different in terms of stats if Game Freak decides to go even further with them in the future. Which there's a chance for since they continued with regional variants in Gen 8 after all, and we haven't seen everything from Galarian forms yet!
In comparison, I think Megas generally do a better job in terms of stat distributions. Sure, some are just plain upgrades over the originals like Salamence and Metagross, but others go from zero to hero. Lopunny and Mawile for instance, their Megas are just plain better than their base forms. And some do just complete swaps like Pidgeot which goes from an epitome of mediocrity to a decent Special Attacker.
That said, I suppose regional variants can still function very differently from their base forms even if they have the same or almost the same stats. But in Ninetales's case, it seems to be more because of its typing and Ability rather than the stat changes. And regarding Abilities, the two forms of Ninetales do just have two different weather-starting Abilities as their HAs, so they aren't that different on that front either. Though I personally think that is a very cool thing, some regional variants have Abilities that are just variations of the Ability that the original form has.
So I don't really agree that regional variants are a lot more different than regional variants in terms of mechanics and performances.
I also want to say that I really like Alolan Ninetales, it is actually one of my top 5 favorite Alolan forms.
Regarding Megas being used very little during the main story in X/Y, I always got the impression that they wanted to make Megas feel more "special" in X/Y. Only a small number of trainers are capable of using it (the player, the main rival, Korrina, Lysandre and Diantha - five in total), there is some heavy lore surrounding it and how not everyone can master it. It was also possible to only find Mega Stones during a certain hour of the day during the post-game. But it seems like they more or less dropped this whole idea after X/Y since Megas got a lot more prominent in OR/AS. The same goes for Gen 7 where you can buy Mega Stones at the Battle Tree shops, and a lot of opposing trainers at the Battle Tree can use Megas as well (since some Battle Tree sets are just Mega sets). Perhaps an unpopular opinion of mine is that I actually liked the approach X/Y had to Megas and how they managed to make them feel special in a quite good way by making them a bit elusive. But I understand that many others don't like this approach, and I guess that might be the reason why they changed things in the games after X/Y. Though I'm okay with the post-X/Y approach to Megas as well. It also makes me curious about how Megas would have been handled in "Z" if that had been a thing.
Lastly, I want to say that I do not consider either Megas or regional variants to be "new Pokémon". Both of them are just different forms to me. Neither have separate Pokédex numbers, so they are not new Pokémon by strict definition. Regional evolutions on the other hand, those are new Pokémon in every way since they do have new Pokédex numbers.
This is actually a very good point, and something D/P doesn't get enough praise for. The same goes for Gen 4 in general since Platinum and HG/SS also included a vast majority of all Pokémon that existed at the time. Sure, some of them require inconvenient/tricky methods to get, such as GBA insertion for the Sinnoh games or the Pokéwalker and the horrible Safari Zone for HG/SS, but even so, there's no denying that they wanted to include as many Pokémon in all games. And it is possible to get every single non-mythical Pokémon between all Gen 4 games.
In comparison, let's take a look at how the other generations did in terms of including all Pokémon that existed at their respective time:
Gen 1: Had all existing Pokémon by default
Gen 2: Had almost all, only missing Gen 1 starters, legendaries and fossils
Gen 3: Had several Pokémon missing from each individual game installment, but it was possible to get all Pokémon across R/S, FR/LG and Emerald
Gen 5: Also had most Pokémon but not all, and some had to be obtained through various annoying means like White Forest, Hidden Grottoes or Dream World, the latter which no longer exists
Gen 6: Same as Gen 3, though X/Y on their own featured a lot of Pokémon, almost 600 I think? Not sure though, and still less than D/P in terms of percentages
Gen 7: S/M had less than half of all existing Pokémon, while US/UM have considerably more but far from all,
Gen 8: Dexit. That said, they will still have at least 2/3 of all existing Pokémon once the Crown Tundra is out. And I guess even after that, the generation isn't over yet
So I think Gen 4 did very well when it comes to including as many Pokémon as possible in the games. It was by far the best in terms of including as many Pokémon as possible (in terms of percentages) in each individual game installment.
Even if regional variants don't have unique Pokedex entries and the like, they're functionally unique Pokemon. They're not like Rotom, Deoxys, or Megas where there's a single Pokemon who can shift between forms. If someone says "I have a Blablamon" there's a distinct difference between asking "what form is it?" and "what form is it in?"
I find it confusing that even though regional forms have legitimate differences from one another, they're still lumped together, on top of regional evolution existing. I never understood that when some such as Galarian Meowth look much different from their Kantonian and Alolan forms and can only evolve into Perrserker, rather than Persian.
Regional formes have a few things going for it over megas:
1. Color
While the designs may be the same, anyone who's ever done an art analysis will show the importance of colors. Ninetaless-K is a golden fox, majestic, while Ninetales-A is more "alone" in a sense, calm, relaxed. Megas don't really change color, other than Zard-X which uses zard's shiny scheme: and while they often add details, they are attached to the real mon's base form. People here are really underestimating the potency of color psychologically
2. Playstyle
An ice type certainly has a different role in teambuilding than a fire type, in the story and in competitive. Some pokemon, like Ninetales, take it up to the extreme by being an AVeil setter vs a sun setter. For another example: Linoone-H abusing bellyspeed while Obstagoon is a breaker (Linoone-G is a bulky pivot I think). Three Megas: Mega Pidgeot, Zard X, and MMX change the "main" attacks, but without the dramatic type change they end up being similar enough to the base mon. Mega Gyara can use DDance like its base form, while subtaunt exists as more of a sideline. A bigger example of "remains the same" would be the mega Kanto starters (Zard-Y): special attacker w. bonus drought, wall with power, special attacker. Also megas like Pidgeot, Sable, and Mawile change roles from base competitive-wise mainly due to their low stats [PU warps the base form's purpose].
note: didnt read too far above and didnt see the reply, still keeping this
3. Permanance
Pretty self explanatory: megas are connected to their base formes, regionals are not. B/c of the above the regional formes are different enough to be different mons. Also important bc mons remain sr weak/resistance on first switch
also regional formes can "save" the mon as well as megas... obstagoon, muk-a, maro-a...
i personally think regionals are different mons in practicality, being inspired but different enough design wise
1. Color
While the designs may be the same, anyone who's ever done an art analysis will show the importance of colors. Ninetaless-K is a golden fox, majestic, while Ninetales-A is more "alone" in a sense, calm, relaxed. Megas don't really change color, other than Zard-X which uses zard's shiny scheme: and while they often add details, they are attached to the real mon's base form. People here are really underestimating the potency of color psychologically
2. Playstyle
An ice type certainly has a different role in teambuilding than a fire type, in the story and in competitive. Some pokemon, like Ninetales, take it up to the extreme by being an AVeil setter vs a sun setter. For another example: Linoone-H abusing bellyspeed while Obstagoon is a breaker (Linoone-G is a bulky pivot I think). Three Megas: Mega Pidgeot, Zard X, and MMX change the "main" attacks, but without the dramatic type change they end up being similar enough to the base mon. Mega Gyara can use DDance like its base form, while subtaunt exists as more of a sideline. A bigger example of "remains the same" would be the mega Kanto starters (Zard-Y): special attacker w. bonus drought, wall with power, special attacker. Also megas like Pidgeot, Sable, and Mawile change roles from base competitive-wise mainly due to their low stats [PU warps the base form's purpose].
note: didnt read too far above and didnt see the reply, still keeping this
3. Permanance
Pretty self explanatory: megas are connected to their base formes, regionals are not. B/c of the above the regional formes are different enough to be different mons. Also important bc mons remain sr weak/resistance on first switch
also regional formes can "save" the mon as well as megas... obstagoon, muk-a, maro-a...
i personally think regionals are different mons in practicality, being inspired but different enough design wise
Also the only reason Bald Dugtrio doesn't completely shit on Fabio Lanzoni Dugtrio is that Arena Trap is banned.
Regional variants/forms also have the advantage over Megas in terms of flavor. While Megas are absolutely cool and do well to make some Pokemon better competitively and have absolutely rad designs, regional variants are cooler in terms of in-universe flavor, so much so that it's neat learning about their differences from the original region forms in the Pokedex. Like how Darumaka, Sandshrew, and Vulpix all gained their regional forms in an attempt to adapt to a colder environment, as well as Galarian Darmanitan being more calm and friendly than Unovan Darmanitan (also the exact opposite being true for their Zen Mode forms). Or like how Galarian Meowth becomes an entirely new species called Perrserker, and how Perrserker is more of a violent, battle thirsty Pokemon than Persian who is classy and snobbish, and how the two species dislike each other (relationship between regional variants!). And vice versa. There's room for flavor and shows a diversity in how some species become different depending on regional circumstances through the Pokedex, whereas the Megas are explicitly an artificially induced transformation that the Pokemon cannot afford to sustain for a long time even with the bond of a Trainer to help control it. In that sense, regional variants become more interesting flavor-wise in their own right and it's more tied to real world species evolution and adaptation, which in itself is very cool.
That's more a consequence of most of the Pokemon that get regional forms initially being terrible competitively to begin with. Most of the Alolan forms are from Kanto, and it's no secret most of the Pokemon in Gen 1 are horrible competitively barring a select few exceptions.
On the other hand, some Pokemon have *not* been rendered obsolete at all by their regional forms. Xaviere has already brought up Galarian Slowbro (Kantonian Slowbro is really, really good and there was no topping it), but Hoenn Linoone has also not been made obsolete at all. Hoenn Linoone is totally different from Galarian Linoone and is still a powerful lower tier threat with a unique niche in its Belly Drum+Extreme Speed+Gluttony sweeping set that sweeps late game. Galarian Linoone, and by extension Obstagoon, still don't have this, and as mentioned they function differently from Hoenn Linoone as G-Linoone is a Parting Shot pivot and Obstagoon is more of a wallbreaker (Obstagoon also completely lacks priority, which Hoenn Linoone has). Runerigus and Cofagrigus are also two fundamentally different Pokemon in how they play because their movepools are pretty different. Both Rapidash forms are also different because Fire and Psychic/Fairy are two extremely different types so they end up not really affecting each other's viability at all.
Also while some regional forms are better than their originals, the original still finds merit somewhere in its own right. Galarian Darmanitan is obviously superior to Unovan Darmanitan, but Unovan Darmanitan is still a very solid Pokemon in UU. Same with Stunfisk in PU.
Point being, it really varies as to whether or not the actual older Pokemon is "rendered obsolete" in competitive. Many regional forms are completely different from their original forms, some are even better than the regional form simply because of a difference in typing or movepool differences (case in point, Linoone), while others function a lot differently, and others are still good in a lower tier.
If any original form is "rendered obsolete" by the regional variant/form, it's usually because the Pokemon in question was already inherently bad in competitive to begin with. It happens to be the case with a lot of Alolan forms because many Kanto Pokemon are absolutely terrible in battle and many of those terrible Pokemon are the ones who happened to get Alolan forms.
That's more a consequence of most of the Pokemon that get regional forms initially being terrible competitively to begin with. Most of the Alolan forms are from Kanto, and it's no secret most of the Pokemon in Gen 1 are horrible competitively barring a select few exceptions.
On the other hand, some Pokemon have *not* been rendered obsolete at all by their regional forms. Xaviere has already brought up Galarian Slowbro (Kantonian Slowbro is really, really good and there was no topping it), but Hoenn Linoone has also not been made obsolete at all. Hoenn Linoone is totally different from Galarian Linoone and is still a powerful lower tier threat with a unique niche in its Belly Drum+Extreme Speed+Gluttony sweeping set that sweeps late game. Galarian Linoone, and by extension Obstagoon, still don't have this, and as mentioned they function differently from Hoenn Linoone as G-Linoone is a Parting Shot pivot and Obstagoon is more of a wallbreaker (Obstagoon also completely lacks priority, which Hoenn Linoone has). Runerigus and Cofagrigus are also two fundamentally different Pokemon in how they play because their movepools are pretty different. Both Rapidash forms are also different because Fire and Psychic/Fairy are two extremely different types so they end up not really affecting each other's viability at all.
Also while some regional forms are better than their originals, the original still finds merit somewhere in its own right. Galarian Darmanitan is obviously superior to Unovan Darmanitan, but Unovan Darmanitan is still a very solid Pokemon in UU. Same with Stunfisk in PU.
Point being, it really varies as to whether or not the actual older Pokemon is "rendered obsolete" in competitive. Many regional forms are completely different from their original forms, some are even better than the regional form simply because of a difference in typing or movepool differences (case in point, Linoone), while others function a lot differently, and others are still good in a lower tier.
If any original form is "rendered obsolete" by the regional variant/form, it's usually because the Pokemon in question was already inherently bad in competitive to begin with. It happens to be the case with a lot of Alolan forms because many Kanto Pokemon are absolutely terrible in battle and many of those terrible Pokemon are the ones who happened to get Alolan forms.
The discussions here seem to never end! But I guess that's a good thing, a forum wouldn't be anything without active discussions.
And since it seems like most people disagree with me on this matter (in this thread, if nothing else), I guess I should just make this into an unpopular opinion of my own: I do not consider regional variants to be new/separate/original Pokémon. Nor do I consider Megas or any other forms to be separate Pokémon, but that seems to be a more popular opinion.
With that said, I want to say that I still really like the regional variants. I liked the concept of them in Gen 7 even if I felt that the execution could have been better. But in Gen 8, they really succeded with the execution as well, Galarian forms are so awesome! Really looking forward to getting more of them in the Crown Tundra. And even so, I still like 11/18 of the Alola forms as well, as I have said at earlier points. However, I still think there's a lot of room to improve upon regional variants even further. Although they already took a huge step forward with Galarian forms, so they have started improving them compared to when they first started in Gen 7, which is good.
But as said, I do not consider the regional variants to be separate Pokémon from the original forms. I guess there are two things that are needed in order for me to consider a Pokémon separate from another: a unique Dex number and a unique species name. Regional variants have neither, thus I do not see them as new Pokémon. New forms, yes. New Pokémon, no. Regional evolutions on the other hand, those are new and separate Pokémon in every way. But not the regional variants.
I don't really agree. While that's true for some of the regional variants, it can't be said for all of them. For instance, I feel that Diglett and Slowpoke are almost identical to their original forms. Some others are also very similar in far too many ways, such as Geodude, Graveler, Rattata, Raticate and Yamask. And if we look on the other side of the coin, there are a lot of other Pokémon with form differences that are different enough to the same degree as many of the regional variants. These Pokémon have multiple forms with distinctive designs and they can't change between their forms. There's Unown, Wormadam, Shellos/Gastrodon, Vivillon, the Flabébé line, Pumpkaboo/Gourgeist, Lycanroc, Minior, Toxtricity, Alcremie and Urshifu. That's quite a lot. I just looked through the list of Pokémon with form changes on Bulbapedia, and it was way more than I thought! I think they could all be considered "functionally unique Pokémon" in the same way as regional variants.
And since it seems like most people disagree with me on this matter (in this thread, if nothing else), I guess I should just make this into an unpopular opinion of my own: I do not consider regional variants to be new/separate/original Pokémon. Nor do I consider Megas or any other forms to be separate Pokémon, but that seems to be a more popular opinion.
With that said, I want to say that I still really like the regional variants. I liked the concept of them in Gen 7 even if I felt that the execution could have been better. But in Gen 8, they really succeded with the execution as well, Galarian forms are so awesome! Really looking forward to getting more of them in the Crown Tundra. And even so, I still like 11/18 of the Alola forms as well, as I have said at earlier points. However, I still think there's a lot of room to improve upon regional variants even further. Although they already took a huge step forward with Galarian forms, so they have started improving them compared to when they first started in Gen 7, which is good.
But as said, I do not consider the regional variants to be separate Pokémon from the original forms. I guess there are two things that are needed in order for me to consider a Pokémon separate from another: a unique Dex number and a unique species name. Regional variants have neither, thus I do not see them as new Pokémon. New forms, yes. New Pokémon, no. Regional evolutions on the other hand, those are new and separate Pokémon in every way. But not the regional variants.
some galar forms have unique species names though. ponyta for example has fire horse in kanto form, and unique horn in galar form, zapdos has electric / strong legs, darm has blazing / zen charm etc
hoopa's a similar case with it being mischief in confined form, and djinn in unbound. hoopa galar form confirmed?
I mean yeah, I would also consider the forms you listed as functionally unique Pokemon (except for the purely aesthetic ones like Gastrodon and Alcremie).
Out of curiosity do you consider the Regional Variant Evolutions that "replaced" the non-variant's evolution as a new Pokemon? Or to put it more simply, do you consider Perrserker & Runerigus new Pokemon? They technically take the place of Persian and Cofagrigus but have new dex numbers (in a way they're sort of like a branched evolution except they're only accessible by the Regional Variant).
But overall I can see what you mean and I do agree with you. While they mostly serve a different role from the original they are still a different form from the original. A Regional Variant is no different from the alternate forms of Unown, Wormadam, Shellos family, Basculin, Vivillon, Flabebe family, Pumpkaboo family, Lycanroc, Minior, Magearna, Toxtricity, Sinistea family, Alcremie, and all the Pokemon with gender differences.
The Snover line is a fun choice to use in the Sinnoh games.
Sure, it has seven weaknesses, so in general, it's definitely not easy to use, but honestly? It's really fun!
In Platinum, Snover can come as high as level 35, which is only one level away from learning Wood Hammer. It also gets Blizzard at level 41 if you hold off on evolving into Abomasnow just one level, or you can just TM it on if you want. Combined with Snover evolving just a few levels away at level 40, it's not that bad to get it evolved by the time you face Candice, and even Snover itself doesn't have terrible stats unevolved.
So you'll basically have this behemoth Abomasnow unleashing 120 Base Power Blizzards and Wood Hammers off decent 92 offenses pretty soon, and while the weaknesses never get any easier, Amomasnow actually has pretty balanced stats all around - not even 60 base Speed prevents it from outpacing a good deal of things in-game, and even if they do, Ice Shard can sometimes pick them off. Abomasnow also has a pretty wide movepool too, which is unusual for a part-Grass type. Water Pulse, Shadow Ball, Brick Break, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Focus Blast, and even Iron Tail, bizarrely enough.
Is it a better Ice type than Weavile or Mamoswine? Nah, probably not. But if you want to try something unique with a wide movepool, you could honestly do a lot worse than Abomasnow. It's leagues better than crap like Drapion where an interesting type and statspread gets shafted by an absolutely terrible movepool (Poison Fang until Crunch at level 49, Cross Poison at 58, yes you can TM Poison Jab on but it's still...Poison STAB, also getting something from the Great Marsh kinda sucks, and the elemental fangs aren't all that worth using imo, as boosting item + 80 BP STAB mostly matches them in power if the fangs are super-effective on something).
Sure, it has seven weaknesses, so in general, it's definitely not easy to use, but honestly? It's really fun!
In Platinum, Snover can come as high as level 35, which is only one level away from learning Wood Hammer. It also gets Blizzard at level 41 if you hold off on evolving into Abomasnow just one level, or you can just TM it on if you want. Combined with Snover evolving just a few levels away at level 40, it's not that bad to get it evolved by the time you face Candice, and even Snover itself doesn't have terrible stats unevolved.
So you'll basically have this behemoth Abomasnow unleashing 120 Base Power Blizzards and Wood Hammers off decent 92 offenses pretty soon, and while the weaknesses never get any easier, Amomasnow actually has pretty balanced stats all around - not even 60 base Speed prevents it from outpacing a good deal of things in-game, and even if they do, Ice Shard can sometimes pick them off. Abomasnow also has a pretty wide movepool too, which is unusual for a part-Grass type. Water Pulse, Shadow Ball, Brick Break, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Focus Blast, and even Iron Tail, bizarrely enough.
Is it a better Ice type than Weavile or Mamoswine? Nah, probably not. But if you want to try something unique with a wide movepool, you could honestly do a lot worse than Abomasnow. It's leagues better than crap like Drapion where an interesting type and statspread gets shafted by an absolutely terrible movepool (Poison Fang until Crunch at level 49, Cross Poison at 58, yes you can TM Poison Jab on but it's still...Poison STAB, also getting something from the Great Marsh kinda sucks, and the elemental fangs aren't all that worth using imo, as boosting item + 80 BP STAB mostly matches them in power if the fangs are super-effective on something).