Honest question. Let’s say future me is living in a world with no police. What is to stop someone who wants to kill me? What is to stop someone who wants to steal from me? I have no idea what your answer might be, so it is important that I ask. Is it something like ‘we won’t call them police, but it will be a bunch of buff dudes with tasers instead of guns’?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Headlines “Politics” [read the OP before posting]
- Thread starter vonFiedler
- Start date
- Status
The hypothetical assumes that there would be no factors that would drive someone to kill. Police exist due to crime so as long as crime is present there will be police. Defunding is the first step in bolstering programs that prevent crime preemptively.
So we aren’t actually talking about no police, just fewer police? Because I currently don’t see any evidence that we have a plan that will result in utopian lawfulness. If any of y’all are legitimately making the case for no more police, please do share your perspective on this. I definitely am in favor of more funding for crime prevention though.
Why do we NEED statues? What purpose do they serve? As historical artifacts they are impractical and unnecessary when we are in the most documented time period of literally all of recorded history. And I'm not just talking about civil war leaders and other arguably racist choices to be immortalized in a waste of brass and copper. I'm talking about literally... everyone. Every statue is redundant and unnecessary if for any other reason than for aesthetics. In my opinion, stop we should stop wasting our precious metals on all this bullshit idolization of dead people. If they were so influential to deserve a statue, then we'll feel their effects on society. I have not once looked at a statue and felt anything other than "oh thats neat"
Do police even do those things (outside of fiction)? I mean I know they do the exact opposite, as in, they kill and steal from people a lot. I guess white supremacists seem to get protected by police? So yeah I guess sadly for white supremacists, they'd be more likely to be killed in a world without police. I can offer no solutions for that one
this is the most ( . ) thing ive seen so far
first off police at all provide the threat that preventative action will take place even if they actually didnt do anything
*even though mental health services can do the same, sometimes they just cant know
second you using 'white supremacists' rubs off the wrong way
well people dont like to be worried that someone is gonna kill them, so there's gonna be some form of law. whenever informal, or some gang takes control and rules with an iron fist. there's also the possibility of neighborhood watches. however none of this is particularly scaleable
Damn that was worse than the guy trying to save the robert e. lee statues or w/e? I mean okay I guess.
I think it's telling that you point out the 'threat of preventative action.' That's kind of an oxymoron, I think what you mean is 'threat of punishment.' Yes, we all know that the police punish people, often by brutalizing/killing/sexually assaulting them, getting them sent to prison etc. I wonder about the degree to which this punishment actually reduces or prevents crime, though. Seems like we have tons of cops, highest prison population, highest prison population *rate*, the cops we have are armed with like batman gear, and also our country is rich as fuck, and yet somehow we 'need cops' or some other cop equivalent to deal with the violent crime that is i guess, only preventable by threat of punishment?
Also the police absolutely protect white supremacists (they also are white supremacists) so I don't know what your objection is to me bringing that up.
Also I had a gun pointed at me by screaming police while naked coming out of the shower once. There's no special point to that or anything I just felt like bringing it up
Last edited:
I never said we need statues, but there's not really a point in defacing / destroying property just because it isn't needed. If you had decorations on your lawn that you didn't need but liked (many people do like the statues as a historical monument or to admire the work people did on it) would you be saying the same thing if people randomly came up and defaced or destroyed your property? If they are already there I don't see what tearing them down and destroying them accomplishes outside of rioting for rioting's sake. Along with this just allowing people to tear down whatever they want because they don't like it is a slippery slope that will and has led to more higher scale destruction of property.
Yes of course I said we should only save Robert E. Lee statues from awful people trying to tear them down, thank you for reading what I said and understanding it rather than getting tunnel vision and seeing "i just wanna save racist statues", this is indeed the correct way to read and process what other people say to try and understand them.
Anyways, you are obviously 100% correct that police never do anything to help anyone. https://listverse.com/2019/02/20/10-notable-times-the-police-saved-someones-life/
http://www.rescuehumor.com/2015/01/12/police-save-people-kill/
You can find many stories of police saving people and the threat of punishment does keep people from committing crimes. There are good cops, plenty of them and the goal should not be abolishing but reforming, fixing up the standards for becoming a cop, better auditing of current cops, and better background checks for new cops. Calling police "white supremacists" and saying they will probably just brutalize / kill / sexually assault you, (especially if you comply and take your grievances to court later), is almost entirely untrue. You should try moving to some more lawless countries/area and see how little to no policing works out for you.
lol i love how the listverse article mostly consists of "this cop gave first aid to people in a medical emergency they happened to bump into" because thats definitely something only militarized cops could do. imagine if they defunded the police and invested part of that money into giving more people first aid training!
anyway i linked an article in my previous poat that you obviously didnt read that goes into how most of the things cops do have fuck all to do with saving lives or catching dangerous criminals, maybe go over that and actually try reading the arguments made by abolitionists instead of throwing around anecdotal wholesome chungus stories and going "not every cop believes in white supremacy" (we know, this was never the argument)
anyway i linked an article in my previous poat that you obviously didnt read that goes into how most of the things cops do have fuck all to do with saving lives or catching dangerous criminals, maybe go over that and actually try reading the arguments made by abolitionists instead of throwing around anecdotal wholesome chungus stories and going "not every cop believes in white supremacy" (we know, this was never the argument)
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...emacists-militias-infiltrate-us-police-report
the american police are just crazy ppl equipped with guns and their behaviors have been totally lawless lately.
the american police are just crazy ppl equipped with guns and their behaviors have been totally lawless lately.
My only opinion on the state of cops is that I feel like it's necessary for them to be demilitarized(there's no reason for them to ever have tanks and the fact that they do boggles my mind, cops are cops not soldiers) and requirements should be a lot stricter because training is inadequate and it's really not a difficult process to become a cop at all rn.
Just wondering with people who want to abolish the police, what to do about rape/kidnapping/runaway cases that get reported to the police. I had a runaway case in my family and we reported it to the cops and their investigation was the only way we knew that they were even still safe(and returned home). There could be other groups made for these specific types of cases possibly
Just wondering with people who want to abolish the police, what to do about rape/kidnapping/runaway cases that get reported to the police. I had a runaway case in my family and we reported it to the cops and their investigation was the only way we knew that they were even still safe(and returned home). There could be other groups made for these specific types of cases possibly
ok i guess i'll just link the same article i linked on the last page: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html
here's a quote for your convenience (although you should read the full article so as to prevent you from asking any further questions already answered in the article):
Where is your source to prove that is the case? I am just taking him to his word, as you conservatives oh so love to do. This seems like you are twisting the narrative to justify his words here.
What dangerous criminals? You keep claiming that Sanctuary cities just house "dangerous criminals" (very racist if you ask me) without providing any backing towards to prove that illegal immigrants the main cause of dangerous crimes (note I am using these as parameters for dangerous crimes)
Its just Trump doing fearmongering to scare people and radicalize the nation into an "Us vs Them" narrative, using the threat of vague crimes to get his supporters to rally against them.
Apparently you just skipped out the entirety of the breakdown, but let me put it to you nicely. Trump is making it his damn hardest to ensure that immigrants have no reason to enter America unless they have family here, whether it be legally or illegally. I can't say for sure what is his end goal, but clearly Trump plans on expelling EVERY immigrant in the country that lacks familial ties. And if you are confused as to how he plans in doing so, take a nice long read through my post.
Why should they be denied basic human aide? If illegal immigrants are are supported by society, ince they do become citizens, they become incentivized to put in their work, because not only would they now be supporting themselves, but they will be supporting another set of immigrants who follow in their footsteps. I figured that working hard and supporting your fellow man was what being an American was all about, but I apologize if that is not the case.
Its not a fuck you to legal immigrants, because the reason people immigrate illegally is because they lack the resources to do so legally. Legal immigrants have the means to do so, so why would they be pressed that people who are coming from dire circumstances are also getting the support they need in order to become citizens just like how legal ones would? I know trump supporters have the Us vs Them mentality I highlighted earlier, but don't project that unto others.
Well my actual question was
As I mentioned I have personal experience here where a family member ran from home and without getting to detailed it involved a pedophile who knew where we lived(and was on our property in at least 1 if not multiple instances) and explicitly threatened mine and my family's lives. What is the alternative to keep people safe in those instances should police be abolished, you can't just pretend it doesn't happen or disregard it because it isn't common. In my experience the local police did return my family member home and arrested the pedo so that was done. I don't even 100% disagree with that article but no, it doesn't cover this so do actually try honey. It helps not to be dismissive when you don't even answer what's being asked
The alternatives to policing in situations such as runaways and pedophiles that were brought up itt are organized citizen groups made up of members of the community willing to intervene in situations involving such things as pedophiles or runaway children. The community needs to be empowered to organize itself rather than give up this power to a police force with legal impunity. These types of organizations already exist in places where the police are corrupted to the point of being just another criminal organization.
The police are supposed to be a big stick that hurts bad guys when they do something wrong ("breaking the law"). An ideal world should have no police, because nobody breaks the law. Hence, police being a negative impact of society. Of course we don't live in the ideal world, we live in the real one.
The problem with people's thoughts on the police, is that they think the police are always lawful good. In the real world where crime happens, crime happens because people want power. Power corrupts people. Unfortunately for america police have some of the highest levels of power available. Why would the police WANT to de-corrupt themselves, when they aren't liable for their actions (qualified immunity) and the city pays lawsuits for anything they do wrong?
Why would police want to arrest fewer people a year (progressive drug legalization laws), when they get paid by prisons for locking people up? Why would police want civil forfeiture laws to go away, when they get year end bonus checks for confiscated cash? Why would they want to shoot fewer people when you shoot somebody and get a vacation + overtime pay for testifying?
Police are supposed to be a punishment for criminals...and the data shows they failed. What's the old saying? Gun control doesn't work cause criminals shoot people anyway? When was the last time a criminal said "better not rape somebody, police might catch me". It is pointless to spend such large chunks of money somewhere that doesn't benefit us. Your local™ (not local actually since it's staffed by cops from 20 miles away) police force has become the equivalent of a military dictatorship that starts wars to make itself more important. Har har, comparison to the us military industrial complex aside...military leaders don't WANT war. Politicians do. Police forces just cracked the secret code and realized the easiest way to get rich was to shoot a bunch of kids ever year.
i have no experiences in my life that suggest they would be helpful in stopping soon-to-occur violent crime situations, but i have several experiences suggesting they will be more than helpful in exacerbating non violent situations, so your question doesn't really make a ton of sense to me as posed.
edit: i write the above as a victim of multiple violent crimes over the course of my life most notably a pretty brutal beating a few years back in nyc after i moved back from australia that left me w/ a bad concussion that ruined my memory lol
edit2: admittedly i am stupid as fuck and have put myself in a handful of situations where one would reasonably expect to have found themselves surrounded by those crimes so please do not think i am just a bad luck magnet or something like that but i ahve been alcohol adjacent a lot throughout my 20s which DOES explain it
Police certainly aren't what are stopping anyone from doing those things to you right now. Indeed, America has the highest murder rate in the developed world, despite having the most police per capita and being by far the most heavily funded and militarized. That making police more numerous and powerful is going to have any benefit to your personal safety is easily disproven with empirical data. In fact, doing so demonstrably makes you less safe, as you are far more likely to die at the hands of a police offer in America than in any other developed country.
The only real way to reduce crime is to give people better lives, better upbringings and more opportunities by creating a more equal and unified society. By defunding the police, we can reallocate those funds to improve education, housing, healthcare and other important social services which will lift people from poverty and disenfranchisement and greatly lower their inclination to commit serious crimes.
^ that post is like if someone looked at the dril tweet about candles and told him to buy less food
Can somebody please translate to English
https://www.qiaocollective.com/en/articles/american-revolution-tu-zhuxi
i thought this would be fun to share. americans are very used to presenting their own views on other societies, here is a chinese person giving such an "outside looking in" view of america for a change (imo a better analysis than pretty much anything americans have to say on china). relevant for this thread given that it goes into the issues with american political culture and its continuing widespread belief that one can change the country by simply voting someone else into office rather than looking for systemic solutions
i thought this would be fun to share. americans are very used to presenting their own views on other societies, here is a chinese person giving such an "outside looking in" view of america for a change (imo a better analysis than pretty much anything americans have to say on china). relevant for this thread given that it goes into the issues with american political culture and its continuing widespread belief that one can change the country by simply voting someone else into office rather than looking for systemic solutions
You've identified a problem (homelessness) that could be solved by defunding the police and spending that money on helping directly eradicate the problem (homelessness).
- Status