Yeah, it would shred even without wicked blow. Shell Smash is banned anyway, so it wouldn't run it.
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Metagame Alphabet Cup
- Thread starter Eli
- Start date
I am back with more fun things (and opinion on our poll here).
I, of course, very much am in favor of allowing it. Quantum Tesseract brought up a fantastic point, even outside of the STABmons precedence one (regarding type changes between evolutions still letting the next evolution learn the move of a type that has been lost/changed, see: Azurill being Normal/Fairy and Azumarill being Water/Fairy), on how evolved Pokemon get the moves of their pre-evos and can learn additional moves as they evolve, with Larvesta as an exception, which ends up meaning nothing anyway with Egg moves and Gen 8 Rare Candy. I also see other people supporting it, and I'm a fan of the increased variety it gives if we ignore the entirely valid points from others.
It's also just more fun with the increased variety in moves Pokemon get, and helps with the viability of additional Pokemon if you're really concerned with that, since some start with not so great letters as a fully evolved Pokemon, but have pre-evos that start with better letters for better moves (Frosmoth/Snom, Excadrill/Drilbur, and Incineroar/Torracat/Litten are the first things that come to my mind).
It isn't very difficult to understand either, if that's an issue with anybody. It's easy to just look at the Pokemon's pre-evo if you really aren't sure in their case, like you can in STABmons or anything else really, because /dt is a very nice function to have around if you ever need it.
Going back to the point made by Quantum Tesseract, I feel like it is incredibly worth mentioning that having that sort of consistency is really good, and it makes sense with respect to how the actual games work as well. I know how much consistency is valued in general, so I just wanted to save it for last since that's usually the thing people remember most.
Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Diamond Storm
- Dragon Dance
Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Lava Plume
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Parting Shot
Bisharp @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Bullet Punch/Sucker Punch
- Behemoth Blade
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Diamond Storm
- Dragon Dance
Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Lava Plume
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Parting Shot
Bisharp @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Bullet Punch/Sucker Punch
- Behemoth Blade
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
Blacephalon @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Blue Flare
- Shadow Ball
- Bolt Strike
- Bonemerang
Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Leech Life
- Bulk Up
- Roost
Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Glare
- Dragon Tail
Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance
Bisharp @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Bullet Punch/Sucker Punch
- Behemoth Blade
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance/Belly Drum
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Blue Flare
- Shadow Ball
- Bolt Strike
- Bonemerang
Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Leech Life
- Bulk Up
- Roost
Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Glare
- Dragon Tail
Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance
Bisharp @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Bullet Punch/Sucker Punch
- Behemoth Blade
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance/Belly Drum
- I know it was touched on earlier in thread, but looking at it more closely, I see it can get a ton of good stuff: Bullet Punch, Behemoth Blade/Bash, Belly Drum, and Bolt Strike without access to Pawniard's moves. With access to them, it gets those previously mentioned in addition to things like Precipice Blades, Parting Shot, Pyro Ball, Play Rough, Plasma Fists, Power Whip, and Psychic Fangs, giving it a ton of really cool coverage options for being able to take on stuff like Toxapex and Magearna more easily.
- Garchomp can be a neat Stealth Rock lead with Glare in its moveset to easy paralyzes
- Incineroar is another cool thing if it gets to take moves from its pre-evos, gaining moves like Lava Plume which more is good for burning opponents without needing to use Will-O-Wisp
- Excadrill was also touched on before, but it getting Extreme Speed is noteworthy to me, and if it gets moves from its pre-evo, then Diamond Storm is also cool
I, of course, very much am in favor of allowing it. Quantum Tesseract brought up a fantastic point, even outside of the STABmons precedence one (regarding type changes between evolutions still letting the next evolution learn the move of a type that has been lost/changed, see: Azurill being Normal/Fairy and Azumarill being Water/Fairy), on how evolved Pokemon get the moves of their pre-evos and can learn additional moves as they evolve, with Larvesta as an exception, which ends up meaning nothing anyway with Egg moves and Gen 8 Rare Candy. I also see other people supporting it, and I'm a fan of the increased variety it gives if we ignore the entirely valid points from others.
It's also just more fun with the increased variety in moves Pokemon get, and helps with the viability of additional Pokemon if you're really concerned with that, since some start with not so great letters as a fully evolved Pokemon, but have pre-evos that start with better letters for better moves (Frosmoth/Snom, Excadrill/Drilbur, and Incineroar/Torracat/Litten are the first things that come to my mind).
It isn't very difficult to understand either, if that's an issue with anybody. It's easy to just look at the Pokemon's pre-evo if you really aren't sure in their case, like you can in STABmons or anything else really, because /dt is a very nice function to have around if you ever need it.
Going back to the point made by Quantum Tesseract, I feel like it is incredibly worth mentioning that having that sort of consistency is really good, and it makes sense with respect to how the actual games work as well. I know how much consistency is valued in general, so I just wanted to save it for last since that's usually the thing people remember most.
Before we published this, we did have a big discussion of whether or not Wicked Blow or Weavile had to be banned, and as funny as Wicked Blow Quagsire sounds, it's
Morytha nailing it as always. Piggybacking off of her commentary, I'd like to add mine:
There are three major axes that should determine one's stance on this, or, frankly, any decision in the Extended Smogon Universe:
- Is this a mechanically/logically accurate simulation to the games?
- Is there precedent? If not, should there be a change?
- Is the meta balanced?
- Does it reward veteran players for their knowledge/experience while being accessible to newer ones?
- Is it fun to play?
Any talking points beyond these are secondary. They can add to the flavor of the position, but these are what should help someone decide.
First one is easy:
It's absolutely incontestable to say that Prevo Clause is consistent with how an equivalent situation would be handled on cartridge. Moves from prevos extend to their evos. Anyone arguing against this is objectively and factually wrong. Super simple. Next.
Things get harder from there, but I'm hoping to break things down:
Obviously Gen 7 Alphabet Cup didn't have a Prevo Clause. It's important to remember that it was also *never even discussed, let alone evaluated*. It's true that there's no perfect parallel, but it's misleading to say that "we've been doing things X way previously". We need to find the next closest thing. Of the major (read: permanent) OMs, the only "purely move-based" OM is STABmons. All of the others add/alter other mechanics - the short is: STAB is our best bet. This reasoning can get more detailed, but I'm hoping you can stick with me here and take me at face value in saying that STAB is what we should use.
STAB does have a ruling dictating that evolutions with type-changes are provided access to those types. Sylveon, the literal face of the format, absolutely loves its access to normal moves. If Sylveon is stuck to only fairy moves, things change a lot, to say the very least.
To answer the original question: in terms of what we have available, there's absolutely precedent. Two questions checked off as "yes" so far.
Now for the hardest one to answer. This is easily where most of the discussion lies. This could be its own essay, and I'm going to intentionally skip it. Since this is the hardest to use formal logical constructions, it'd be unfair for me to pretend that I (or anyone) could argue there's a mathematical basis here, given the relative youth of the format. For those who want my stance here, please ask and I'd be happy to elaborate. Two "yes" and one "inconclusive".
This one is probably the second-hardest to argue about logically, primarily because we don't really have any extensive data to use. That said, I would argue as such:
It absolutely rewards knowledge of the game. So many of us forget that many of the prevos exist, and the veteran builder will take a pokemon like Frosmoth and go "oh yeah! Snom! Scorching Sands! Shore Up!", while someone with less experience will have "less to work with"
I understand that my access to data is relatively limited, but from what I have experienced with conversation in the PS OM Room, people who didn't even know ABC existed very quickly picked up. I won't call anyone by name so they don't feel pressured to add in, but if you're one of those people, tell us how it went if you're comfortable!
Assuming you're willing to wait for the "testimonials" (and especially if you'll take my word for it) this is a third one in the "yes" column.
The last one follows similar logical constructs to the previous one. Barring some really really grandiose arguments, there isn't a way to numerate fun. That said, the best way to handle this one is by asking others. The best thing beyond that is to play with your own teams, but if you don't want to, I hope it goes without saying that from how much both of the leaders, the folks in the OM Room, and the face of anyone who you tell about some dumb and hilarious move choice idea you have (cotton guard body press conversion haze blissey is one of my current favorites) love to come up with sets that just perfectly hold the position of "this is really stupid but also I can definitely make this work".
This is a fourth "yes".
I hope this lengthy logic layout lures positive-position polling picks!
That dumb bit aside, I hope to see everyone help carry these votes for the better!
P.S. I should also add that even if someone does find something really busted, it's super easy to just adjust accordingly. Worst case scenario, we can go back and remove it. I do think it's worth playing with!
Last edited:
This is a fun meta to build for.
Moltres-Galar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Milk Drink
- Magma Storm
- Fiery Wrath
- Taunt
Stallbreaker Moltres-G kinda like stallbreaker heatran. Uses Magma Storm+Taunt to chip defensive pokemons and heals with milk drink. It's still useful outside of more defensive matchup due to its bulk and its ability to get many berserk boosts thanks to milk drink. It also gets moonblast which is very good coverage when combined with fiery wrath. Overall, Moltres-G improves a lot and seems to have the potential to be quite the threat.
Thundurus (M) @ Chill Drive
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Techno Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Nasty Plot
- Topsy-Turvy
It's kind of insane how there's been so little talk about this. It's probably gonna be THE best pokemon in the meta thanks to having prankster topsy-turvy to destroy any set-up attempts and having powerful bolt-beam coverage with nasty plot. Seriously this thing is ALWAYS a threat and an amazing support pokemon.
Tapu Koko @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Axel
- Wild Charge
- U-turn
- Roost
Koko could run a special set with ice techno blast but I figured that was a waste of an item slot and a waste of koko's high attack stat. Now, with Triple Axel, it becomes a really dangerous attacker. Understandably, Wild Charge recoil is annoying but it's not a move you should underestimate.
Porygon-Z @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Parting Shot
Parting Shot really helps PZ's choiced sets since it gives it a way to pivot which was one of its main downside before. Not only that, it also gets psystrike which deals heavy damage to blisseys trying to wall it.
Rillaboom @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Grav Apple
- Grassy Glide
- Triple Axel
- Thousand Waves.
With ice+ground coverage, Rillaboom can hit a bunch of mons super effectively and has great coverage. Grav Apple can also be a nice move to stallbreak but Swords Dance is probably better. Thousand Waves is a really interesting move since it (seemingly) doesn't have its power lowered by grassy terrain, is fully accurate and traps the target.
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Heavy Slam
Who was it that leaked Cosmic Power Celesteela? I hope you're happy. Anyway this thing also gets access to corrosive gas, court change and clangorous soul. Looks like hell to deal with both the bulky variants and the set-up variants.
Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- No Retreat
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
This seems incredibly difficult to answer due to it outspeeding every scarfer except regieleki who can't hit it and it's still a pain to deal with defensively because of its insane coverage. I'm surprised No Retreat hasn't been limited yet.
Noivern @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Roost
- No Retreat
- U-turn
No Retreat+Pivoting+Healing. Have fun.
Moltres-Galar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Milk Drink
- Magma Storm
- Fiery Wrath
- Taunt
Stallbreaker Moltres-G kinda like stallbreaker heatran. Uses Magma Storm+Taunt to chip defensive pokemons and heals with milk drink. It's still useful outside of more defensive matchup due to its bulk and its ability to get many berserk boosts thanks to milk drink. It also gets moonblast which is very good coverage when combined with fiery wrath. Overall, Moltres-G improves a lot and seems to have the potential to be quite the threat.
Thundurus (M) @ Chill Drive
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Techno Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Nasty Plot
- Topsy-Turvy
It's kind of insane how there's been so little talk about this. It's probably gonna be THE best pokemon in the meta thanks to having prankster topsy-turvy to destroy any set-up attempts and having powerful bolt-beam coverage with nasty plot. Seriously this thing is ALWAYS a threat and an amazing support pokemon.
Tapu Koko @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Axel
- Wild Charge
- U-turn
- Roost
Koko could run a special set with ice techno blast but I figured that was a waste of an item slot and a waste of koko's high attack stat. Now, with Triple Axel, it becomes a really dangerous attacker. Understandably, Wild Charge recoil is annoying but it's not a move you should underestimate.
Porygon-Z @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Parting Shot
Parting Shot really helps PZ's choiced sets since it gives it a way to pivot which was one of its main downside before. Not only that, it also gets psystrike which deals heavy damage to blisseys trying to wall it.
Rillaboom @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Grav Apple
- Grassy Glide
- Triple Axel
- Thousand Waves.
With ice+ground coverage, Rillaboom can hit a bunch of mons super effectively and has great coverage. Grav Apple can also be a nice move to stallbreak but Swords Dance is probably better. Thousand Waves is a really interesting move since it (seemingly) doesn't have its power lowered by grassy terrain, is fully accurate and traps the target.
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Heavy Slam
Who was it that leaked Cosmic Power Celesteela? I hope you're happy. Anyway this thing also gets access to corrosive gas, court change and clangorous soul. Looks like hell to deal with both the bulky variants and the set-up variants.
Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- No Retreat
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
This seems incredibly difficult to answer due to it outspeeding every scarfer except regieleki who can't hit it and it's still a pain to deal with defensively because of its insane coverage. I'm surprised No Retreat hasn't been limited yet.
Noivern @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Roost
- No Retreat
- U-turn
No Retreat+Pivoting+Healing. Have fun.
I guess it's my turn to share some sets!
(Pretend there is a picture of dugtrio here)
Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Destiny Bond
- Earthquake
- Diamond Storm
- Sucker Punch
I honestly think that Dugtrio will be a huge threat. It only has access to D moves, but that still gives it access to great moves such as Diamond Storm and Destiny Bond. Diamond Storm allows Dugtrio to dispatch of flying types and pokemon with levitate as well as possibly getting +2 defense. Destiny Bond is really nasty thanks to Dugtrio's whopping 372 speed stat, making him difficult to kill without sacking a mon. Combine that with a Choice Scarf and then he outspeeds max speed Regieleki by 10 points. Good luck dealing with this thing.
(Pretend there is a picture of Flygon here)
Flygon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Volt Tackle
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
I've been toying with Flygon a good bit and this is my favorite set so far. Flygon has access to Fake Out, Volt Tackle, V-Create, Flip Turn, Volt Switch, and a bunch of other moves. With Fake Out and Volt Switch/Flip Turn, Flygon makes a decent pivot and can rack up some damage. Dragon Dance allows Flygon to set up and sweep. Volt Tackle is a powerful coverage move that lets Flygon evaporate water types, while V-create makes ice types cower in fear. Earthquake is there as a powerful no drawback stab move to spam.
(Pretend there is a picture of Grimmsnarl here)
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Fake Out
- Memento
Grimmsnarl becomes a decent suicide lead for hyper offense by chipping the opponent, setting screens and neutering an opponent, forcing a switch allowing you to set up a sweeper. This can also be saved for a bit later in the game too. He can also be a solid wall breaker with Milk Drink and Multi Attack which along with his stabs gives him whatever coverage you want. He also has prankster glare, making it easy to spread status, giving you speed control and some free turns on top of that.
(Pretend there is a picture of Palossand here)
Palossand @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Perish Song
- Shore Up
- Protect
Perish trap. Plain and simple.
(Pretend there is a picture of Lurantis here)
Kevin Lurantis (Lurantis) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 152 HP / 104 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Fleur Cannon
- Giga Drain
- Freezing Glare
Lurantis gains fairy Leaf Storm, granting coverage, and freezing glare to hit poison types. Other than that, I don't know what else would really help Lurantis, but I DID pull off a 6-0 sweep using Lurantis as my lead when facing alaserdolphin :D
(Pretend there is a picture of Blissey here)
Blissey (F) @ King's Rock
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Beat Up
- Cotton Guard
- Soft-Boiled
- Cotton Guard
Easily the most fun Blissey set. Not at all viable, but imagine this in a box battle with 24 pokemon. Cotton Guard so you don't die to physical attacks in an instant, and Cotton Spore is blissey's only option to outspeed opponents pokemon.
Sadly I didn't save the replay of this in a 24 pokemon battle, but it was epic.
(Pretend there is a picture of dugtrio here)
Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Destiny Bond
- Earthquake
- Diamond Storm
- Sucker Punch
I honestly think that Dugtrio will be a huge threat. It only has access to D moves, but that still gives it access to great moves such as Diamond Storm and Destiny Bond. Diamond Storm allows Dugtrio to dispatch of flying types and pokemon with levitate as well as possibly getting +2 defense. Destiny Bond is really nasty thanks to Dugtrio's whopping 372 speed stat, making him difficult to kill without sacking a mon. Combine that with a Choice Scarf and then he outspeeds max speed Regieleki by 10 points. Good luck dealing with this thing.
(Pretend there is a picture of Flygon here)
Flygon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Volt Tackle
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
I've been toying with Flygon a good bit and this is my favorite set so far. Flygon has access to Fake Out, Volt Tackle, V-Create, Flip Turn, Volt Switch, and a bunch of other moves. With Fake Out and Volt Switch/Flip Turn, Flygon makes a decent pivot and can rack up some damage. Dragon Dance allows Flygon to set up and sweep. Volt Tackle is a powerful coverage move that lets Flygon evaporate water types, while V-create makes ice types cower in fear. Earthquake is there as a powerful no drawback stab move to spam.
(Pretend there is a picture of Grimmsnarl here)
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Fake Out
- Memento
Grimmsnarl becomes a decent suicide lead for hyper offense by chipping the opponent, setting screens and neutering an opponent, forcing a switch allowing you to set up a sweeper. This can also be saved for a bit later in the game too. He can also be a solid wall breaker with Milk Drink and Multi Attack which along with his stabs gives him whatever coverage you want. He also has prankster glare, making it easy to spread status, giving you speed control and some free turns on top of that.
(Pretend there is a picture of Palossand here)
Palossand @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Perish Song
- Shore Up
- Protect
Perish trap. Plain and simple.
(Pretend there is a picture of Lurantis here)
Kevin Lurantis (Lurantis) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 152 HP / 104 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Fleur Cannon
- Giga Drain
- Freezing Glare
Lurantis gains fairy Leaf Storm, granting coverage, and freezing glare to hit poison types. Other than that, I don't know what else would really help Lurantis, but I DID pull off a 6-0 sweep using Lurantis as my lead when facing alaserdolphin :D
(Pretend there is a picture of Blissey here)
Blissey (F) @ King's Rock
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Beat Up
- Cotton Guard
- Soft-Boiled
- Cotton Guard
Easily the most fun Blissey set. Not at all viable, but imagine this in a box battle with 24 pokemon. Cotton Guard so you don't die to physical attacks in an instant, and Cotton Spore is blissey's only option to outspeed opponents pokemon.
Sadly I didn't save the replay of this in a 24 pokemon battle, but it was epic.
Nice sets! Some commentary:This is a fun meta to build for.
Moltres-Galar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Milk Drink
- Magma Storm
- Fiery Wrath
- Taunt
Stallbreaker Moltres-G kinda like stallbreaker heatran. Uses Magma Storm+Taunt to chip defensive pokemons and heals with milk drink. It's still useful outside of more defensive matchup due to its bulk and its ability to get many berserk boosts thanks to milk drink. It also gets moonblast which is very good coverage when combined with fiery wrath. Overall, Moltres-G improves a lot and seems to have the potential to be quite the threat.
Thundurus (M) @ Chill Drive
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Techno Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Nasty Plot
- Topsy-Turvy
It's kind of insane how there's been so little talk about this. It's probably gonna be THE best pokemon in the meta thanks to having prankster topsy-turvy to destroy any set-up attempts and having powerful bolt-beam coverage with nasty plot. Seriously this thing is ALWAYS a threat and an amazing support pokemon.
Tapu Koko @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Axel
- Wild Charge
- U-turn
- Roost
Koko could run a special set with ice techno blast but I figured that was a waste of an item slot and a waste of koko's high attack stat. Now, with Triple Axel, it becomes a really dangerous attacker. Understandably, Wild Charge recoil is annoying but it's not a move you should underestimate.
Porygon-Z @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Parting Shot
Parting Shot really helps PZ's choiced sets since it gives it a way to pivot which was one of its main downside before. Not only that, it also gets psystrike which deals heavy damage to blisseys trying to wall it.
Rillaboom @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Grav Apple
- Grassy Glide
- Triple Axel
- Thousand Waves.
With ice+ground coverage, Rillaboom can hit a bunch of mons super effectively and has great coverage. Grav Apple can also be a nice move to stallbreak but Swords Dance is probably better. Thousand Waves is a really interesting move since it (seemingly) doesn't have its power lowered by grassy terrain, is fully accurate and traps the target.
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Heavy Slam
Who was it that leaked Cosmic Power Celesteela? I hope you're happy. Anyway this thing also gets access to corrosive gas, court change and clangorous soul. Looks like hell to deal with both the bulky variants and the set-up variants.
Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- No Retreat
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
This seems incredibly difficult to answer due to it outspeeding every scarfer except regieleki who can't hit it and it's still a pain to deal with defensively because of its insane coverage. I'm surprised No Retreat hasn't been limited yet.
Noivern @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Roost
- No Retreat
- U-turn
No Retreat+Pivoting+Healing. Have fun.
I like the Moltres! It's a pokemon I haven't been using and I can see it really putting in some work!
Thund-T is absolutely going to be amazing in this format, and while I'm surprised in myself for not mentioning it more explicitly in the thread, it's definitely up there with Silvally and Rotom for being a real beautiful anchor to just about any team. Don't forget that Thunderous Cage exists!
Koko is one of those mons that suffers from one of the most unfortunate combos of stats relative to its move pool. The even bigger shame is that it's still forced to use wild charge, even in ABC. It does get access to Thunderous Kick (a fighting move because GF be like) and of course Triple Axel, but it would really love something like Bolt Strike or even Plasma Fists. If Tail Glow ever does come around, Arceus help us.
Porygon-Z is a pokemon I've been wanting to make work in ABC. While it doesn't get anything spectacular, it doesn't really need it: Parting Shot and Psystrike are great for the reasons you listed; they're not boomburst, but such is life.
I really like the Rillaboom. Nothing too crazy, but like Porygon, it doesn't need anything too crazy either.
A couple things:
Clang Celesteela sounds... Interesting. I'm not sure it's better than running Corvi with the equivalent set (and actual recovery), but interesting nonetheless. If this set does gain traction, I can see it becoming quite a monster to deal with.
Nidoking is definitely troublesome at the very least. All of the Omni-Boosts have been immediately on our radar, and this thing has the potential to definitely cause problems. Fortunately, things like Haze Blissey/Chansey exist (along with the Topsy Cloud Guy himself), but in terms of sheer revengability, it's definitely tough. I believe sash Terrak OHKOs it and I'm sure plenty of others are similar, but not being (realistically) prone to priority will definitely give cause to No Retreat and its shenanigans.
Not sure what to think about Noivern. Getting an opportunity to boost definitely makes it scary, but it still has to fear Ice Shard and the like, along with the forever powerful walls in the format. U-turn evading the lock-in does make things interesting!
Good work!
Okay guys, I create the code to play the current meta, feel free to use it.
/challenge NICKNAMEPLAYERHERE, [Gen 8] OU @@@Alphabet Cup Move Legality, -Cinderace, -Scolipede, -Blaziken, -Melmetal, -Pheromosa, -Spectrier, -Weavile, -Zygarde, +Zamazenta, +Zamazenta-C, *Acupressure, *Astral Barrage, -Baton Pass, *Bolt Beak, *Double Iron Bash, *Electrify, *Fishious Rend, *Geomancy, *Glacial Lance, *Lovely Kiss, *Shell Smash, *Shift Gear, *Sleep Powder, *Spore, *Surging Strikes, *Thousand Arrows, -Arena Trap, -Moody, -Power Construct, -Shadow Tag
/challenge NICKNAMEPLAYERHERE, [Gen 8] OU @@@Alphabet Cup Move Legality, -Cinderace, -Scolipede, -Blaziken, -Melmetal, -Pheromosa, -Spectrier, -Weavile, -Zygarde, +Zamazenta, +Zamazenta-C, *Acupressure, *Astral Barrage, -Baton Pass, *Bolt Beak, *Double Iron Bash, *Electrify, *Fishious Rend, *Geomancy, *Glacial Lance, *Lovely Kiss, *Shell Smash, *Shift Gear, *Sleep Powder, *Spore, *Surging Strikes, *Thousand Arrows, -Arena Trap, -Moody, -Power Construct, -Shadow Tag
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Hi Hello I have some trash I want to litter about the thread
Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: Liquid Voice
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Moonblast
- Psystrike
- Flip Turn
It might be too late for this to work but I thought STAB Boomburst sounded really funny, and indeed it is pretty funny.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Liquid Voice Primarina Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 283-334 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Psystrike does more damage to targets like Blissey and Toxapex, but really you could click Boomburst against anything without a 4x resist/immunity and get mileage. There's plenty more coverage options you can run if you want like Blue Flare to smack Grass types.
Aegislash @ Metal Coat/Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Doom Desire
- Anchor Shot
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball
Switch into something that doesn't threaten you, and depending on the situation you can either get a trap off with Anchor Shot and then Doom Desire, or skip the first step and just fire off a Doom Desire. Pair with some really strong Fighting/Dark/Dragon type to pressure Fairies looking to block you. I don't know about the rest of the set just make it do Aegislash things. Big shame it doesn't get a pivot move outside of Healing Wish.
Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Cage
- Protect
- Substitute
- Taunt
Loses to ground-types but you can literally just ruin the will to live of your opponent should they not have an Electric immunity
Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: Liquid Voice
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Moonblast
- Psystrike
- Flip Turn
It might be too late for this to work but I thought STAB Boomburst sounded really funny, and indeed it is pretty funny.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Liquid Voice Primarina Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 283-334 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Psystrike does more damage to targets like Blissey and Toxapex, but really you could click Boomburst against anything without a 4x resist/immunity and get mileage. There's plenty more coverage options you can run if you want like Blue Flare to smack Grass types.
Aegislash @ Metal Coat/Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Doom Desire
- Anchor Shot
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball
Switch into something that doesn't threaten you, and depending on the situation you can either get a trap off with Anchor Shot and then Doom Desire, or skip the first step and just fire off a Doom Desire. Pair with some really strong Fighting/Dark/Dragon type to pressure Fairies looking to block you. I don't know about the rest of the set just make it do Aegislash things. Big shame it doesn't get a pivot move outside of Healing Wish.
Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Cage
- Protect
- Substitute
- Taunt
Loses to ground-types but you can literally just ruin the will to live of your opponent should they not have an Electric immunity
I'm getting too carried away with creating sets...
Also I know how to add these now
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Fairy Memory
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Darkest Lariat
- Milk Drink
- Glare
This is my personal favorite Grimmsnarl set right now. It has a much more powerful stab attack in Multi Attack, which can be changed for coverage, Darkest Lariat hits defence boosted mons as normal, and prankster recovery+Glare. Comes with 2 immunities to boot.
Pory-Be-Gon-Z (Porygon-Z) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Plasma Fists
- Ice Beam
- Parting Shot
Mixed Porygon-Z set. His attack is boosted based on the opponents weaker defense, and Photon Geyser uses your higher attack stat. He has bolt-beam coverage as usual, and p-shot for pivoting. Scarfed variants appreciate webs/tailwind, and non-scarfed variants even more so.
Wickedpedeia (Scolipede) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wicked Blow
- V-create
- Swords Dance
- Spiky Shield
This is very disgusting. Originally I had Speed Swap over V-Create thinking I could give opposing Topsy-Turvy mons the lowered speed, but it didn't work. Then I remembered V-Create. I wouldn't be surprised if SOMETHING gets banned because of this.
I have more, but I'll save them for another time and leave sets for you guys to discover!
Also I know how to add these now
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Fairy Memory
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Darkest Lariat
- Milk Drink
- Glare
This is my personal favorite Grimmsnarl set right now. It has a much more powerful stab attack in Multi Attack, which can be changed for coverage, Darkest Lariat hits defence boosted mons as normal, and prankster recovery+Glare. Comes with 2 immunities to boot.
Pory-Be-Gon-Z (Porygon-Z) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Plasma Fists
- Ice Beam
- Parting Shot
Mixed Porygon-Z set. His attack is boosted based on the opponents weaker defense, and Photon Geyser uses your higher attack stat. He has bolt-beam coverage as usual, and p-shot for pivoting. Scarfed variants appreciate webs/tailwind, and non-scarfed variants even more so.
Wickedpedeia (Scolipede) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wicked Blow
- V-create
- Swords Dance
- Spiky Shield
This is very disgusting. Originally I had Speed Swap over V-Create thinking I could give opposing Topsy-Turvy mons the lowered speed, but it didn't work. Then I remembered V-Create. I wouldn't be surprised if SOMETHING gets banned because of this.
I have more, but I'll save them for another time and leave sets for you guys to discover!
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Noting that while I think the pre-evolution clause is fun due to the variety it introduces, i found it to be completely unintuitive while thinking about sets. I don't know the names of 90% of the NFE pokemon
Thanks for your perspective; do you feel like the format itself is limiting you from looking this up? We do have a list in the resources already of all of the extra letters everyone has the potential to gain. Is there a better way for us to make that info accessible to you and other new players? /dt does let you look at Evo lines through the provided link, and 90% of the time, you can do /ds with one of the abilities and find the prevos (blaze will show you all of the fire starters, etc)
I'm genuinely asking because if there's anything we can do to make things easier, we'd love to help!
Personally, I think if abc was an option in the team builder, then it could be made so you see all the moves each pokemon has access to. Much like how hackmons lists all the moves. I know this would probably take a while though.
Another idea is if there was a command to look at the letters each pokemon has access to.
/abc [pokemon]
For example, if it was Blaziken, when you enter the command, it tells you Blaziken has access to moves that start with B, C and T.
The second option I imagine is easier and more likely to be done.
I really like pre-evo clause because it just makes the game more fun. A bunch of pokemons get new options that make them more viable and logically speaking, it follows the rule that "If your pre-evolution has a move, you can have it too."
Here are a couple of sets:
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Poltergeist
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
Gets Close Combat from cubone. That's it but it's still really good for one of the best trick room mon in the game.
Exploud @ Choice Band
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Hammer Arm
- Wicked Blow
- Explosion
Scrappy Espeed+Fighting is perfect coverage so last 2 slots can be whatever you want. Explosion is able to nuke anything that doesn't resist it while wicked blow is just a funny move from whismur. Main thing here is this is a great revenge killer thanks to stab banded espeed.
Necrozma @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- No Retreat
- Moonlight
- Photon Geyser
- Heat Wave
Prepare your prankster topsy-turvys everyone.
Xatu @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Roost
- No Retreat
- U-turn
- Air Slash
Ok but what if you couldn't get prankster turvy'd?
Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Apple Acid
- Flip Turn
- Synthesis
- Spore
Flip Turn+Regen is ridiculously good and apple acid is also really annoying to go up against. Just a good bulk pivot.
Bewear @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shore Up
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Double-Edge
Ghost+Fighting is great coverage and spectral thief is a broken move. Shore up lets you heal with bewear's good physical bulk (against contact moves) and last slot can be literally anything.
Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Thunderous Kick
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off
Wow this is actually really cool. Obliterate fairies with gunk shot, set up trick room, you have thunderous kick (CC would still probably be better though). It also gets gyro ball and becomes a great trick room setter/abuser.
Dragalge @ Black Sludge
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Shore Up
- Spikes
- Flip Turn
- Toxic Spikes
Bulky with hazard stacking and pivoting. Not quite pex but the type is better and it gets more hazards and defog so that's nice
Crobat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Glare
- Gunk Shot
- U-turn
- Roost
Glare is good team support. Yeah that's it. Fast para is quite good.
Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Secret Sword
- Psychic
- Strength Sap
- Calm Mind
Secret Sword is always really good for it no matter how you use reuniclus. Crushing blissey and having an accurate special fighting move is just good for it. Also strength sap makes it even worse to fight against.
Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Behemoth Blade
- Bolt Strike
- Milk Drink
- Stealth Rock
Behemoth moves, Bolt Strike for bulky waters and then you just run whatever you want. Seems like a good bulky steel type though since it has recovery now.
Here are a couple of sets:
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Poltergeist
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
Gets Close Combat from cubone. That's it but it's still really good for one of the best trick room mon in the game.
Exploud @ Choice Band
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Hammer Arm
- Wicked Blow
- Explosion
Scrappy Espeed+Fighting is perfect coverage so last 2 slots can be whatever you want. Explosion is able to nuke anything that doesn't resist it while wicked blow is just a funny move from whismur. Main thing here is this is a great revenge killer thanks to stab banded espeed.
Necrozma @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- No Retreat
- Moonlight
- Photon Geyser
- Heat Wave
Prepare your prankster topsy-turvys everyone.
Xatu @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Roost
- No Retreat
- U-turn
- Air Slash
Ok but what if you couldn't get prankster turvy'd?
Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Apple Acid
- Flip Turn
- Synthesis
- Spore
Flip Turn+Regen is ridiculously good and apple acid is also really annoying to go up against. Just a good bulk pivot.
Bewear @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shore Up
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Double-Edge
Ghost+Fighting is great coverage and spectral thief is a broken move. Shore up lets you heal with bewear's good physical bulk (against contact moves) and last slot can be literally anything.
Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Thunderous Kick
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off
Wow this is actually really cool. Obliterate fairies with gunk shot, set up trick room, you have thunderous kick (CC would still probably be better though). It also gets gyro ball and becomes a great trick room setter/abuser.
Dragalge @ Black Sludge
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Shore Up
- Spikes
- Flip Turn
- Toxic Spikes
Bulky with hazard stacking and pivoting. Not quite pex but the type is better and it gets more hazards and defog so that's nice
Crobat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Glare
- Gunk Shot
- U-turn
- Roost
Glare is good team support. Yeah that's it. Fast para is quite good.
Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Secret Sword
- Psychic
- Strength Sap
- Calm Mind
Secret Sword is always really good for it no matter how you use reuniclus. Crushing blissey and having an accurate special fighting move is just good for it. Also strength sap makes it even worse to fight against.
Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Behemoth Blade
- Bolt Strike
- Milk Drink
- Stealth Rock
Behemoth moves, Bolt Strike for bulky waters and then you just run whatever you want. Seems like a good bulky steel type though since it has recovery now.
I just wanna throw it out there that the Regis get recovery now (in Recover or Roost). This is especially useful for Registeel, as it has 150 defense and special defense, plus a steel typing. Along with this, they all get access to Rapid Spin, so here's a set I'm thinking of:
Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body / Light Metal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold / Impish Nature
- Recover / Roost
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic / Stealth Rock
- Body Press / Seismic Toss / filler
This set aims to have a bulky spinner who can stay alive as long as possible. Along with this, Registeel naturally gets Stealth Rock in its moveset, so if you wanna run it as a bulky hazard setter / remover, that's always an option. Not to mention it resists rock, which means it takes 1/16 damage from rocks, which is really nice. Overall, Registeel looks good in this metagame, and I can't wait to see it used as it's one of the Pokemon I like a lot.
Darmanitan @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Drum Beating
- Fire Punch / Flare Blitz
- Earthquake
Dragon Dance on this thing seems...terrifying, to say the least. Especially with Sheer Force and Life Orb, this thing will hit like a 2004 Ford F-150. It's a bit frail though, so do keep that in mind, but if your opponent switches out on the turn you set up Dragon Dance, it almost certainly spells doom for them.
Shuckle @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Toxic
- Infestation
- Shore Up
- Knock Off
Good ol' Shuckle, infamous for its sky-high defenses but awful other stats. It can't abuse its insane defenses because of its lack of recovery...until now. Shuckle getting Shore Up is a blessing, as it can now not be a suicide lead, but instead be a toxic and infestation stalling wall. It can definitely run more than this being a S mon, being able to run moves like Sacred Fire, Spikes, Seismic Toss, Spiky Shield, Spectral Thief, Super Fang, and Sweet Kiss. This thing has tons of options, and honestly it's terrifying.
I'm also gonna post more sets soon so stay tuned
Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body / Light Metal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold / Impish Nature
- Recover / Roost
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic / Stealth Rock
- Body Press / Seismic Toss / filler
This set aims to have a bulky spinner who can stay alive as long as possible. Along with this, Registeel naturally gets Stealth Rock in its moveset, so if you wanna run it as a bulky hazard setter / remover, that's always an option. Not to mention it resists rock, which means it takes 1/16 damage from rocks, which is really nice. Overall, Registeel looks good in this metagame, and I can't wait to see it used as it's one of the Pokemon I like a lot.
Darmanitan @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Drum Beating
- Fire Punch / Flare Blitz
- Earthquake
Dragon Dance on this thing seems...terrifying, to say the least. Especially with Sheer Force and Life Orb, this thing will hit like a 2004 Ford F-150. It's a bit frail though, so do keep that in mind, but if your opponent switches out on the turn you set up Dragon Dance, it almost certainly spells doom for them.
Shuckle @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Toxic
- Infestation
- Shore Up
- Knock Off
Good ol' Shuckle, infamous for its sky-high defenses but awful other stats. It can't abuse its insane defenses because of its lack of recovery...until now. Shuckle getting Shore Up is a blessing, as it can now not be a suicide lead, but instead be a toxic and infestation stalling wall. It can definitely run more than this being a S mon, being able to run moves like Sacred Fire, Spikes, Seismic Toss, Spiky Shield, Spectral Thief, Super Fang, and Sweet Kiss. This thing has tons of options, and honestly it's terrifying.
I'm also gonna post more sets soon so stay tuned
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These are some great sets!I really like pre-evo clause because it just makes the game more fun. A bunch of pokemons get new options that make them more viable and logically speaking, it follows the rule that "If your pre-evolution has a move, you can have it too."
Here are a couple of sets:
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Poltergeist
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
Gets Close Combat from cubone. That's it but it's still really good for one of the best trick room mon in the game.
Exploud @ Choice Band
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Hammer Arm
- Wicked Blow
- Explosion
Scrappy Espeed+Fighting is perfect coverage so last 2 slots can be whatever you want. Explosion is able to nuke anything that doesn't resist it while wicked blow is just a funny move from whismur. Main thing here is this is a great revenge killer thanks to stab banded espeed.
Necrozma @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- No Retreat
- Moonlight
- Photon Geyser
- Heat Wave
Prepare your prankster topsy-turvys everyone.
Xatu @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Roost
- No Retreat
- U-turn
- Air Slash
Ok but what if you couldn't get prankster turvy'd?
Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Apple Acid
- Flip Turn
- Synthesis
- Spore
Flip Turn+Regen is ridiculously good and apple acid is also really annoying to go up against. Just a good bulk pivot.
Bewear @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shore Up
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Double-Edge
Ghost+Fighting is great coverage and spectral thief is a broken move. Shore up lets you heal with bewear's good physical bulk (against contact moves) and last slot can be literally anything.
Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Thunderous Kick
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off
Wow this is actually really cool. Obliterate fairies with gunk shot, set up trick room, you have thunderous kick (CC would still probably be better though). It also gets gyro ball and becomes a great trick room setter/abuser.
Dragalge @ Black Sludge
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Shore Up
- Spikes
- Flip Turn
- Toxic Spikes
Bulky with hazard stacking and pivoting. Not quite pex but the type is better and it gets more hazards and defog so that's nice
Crobat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Glare
- Gunk Shot
- U-turn
- Roost
Glare is good team support. Yeah that's it. Fast para is quite good.
Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Secret Sword
- Psychic
- Strength Sap
- Calm Mind
Secret Sword is always really good for it no matter how you use reuniclus. Crushing blissey and having an accurate special fighting move is just good for it. Also strength sap makes it even worse to fight against.
Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Behemoth Blade
- Bolt Strike
- Milk Drink
- Stealth Rock
Behemoth moves, Bolt Strike for bulky waters and then you just run whatever you want. Seems like a good bulky steel type though since it has recovery now.
Some notes to keep in mind:
Clangorous Soul Maro exists; if you decide to run clang + flame charge, you can outspeed a lot of things rather quickly! Even if you don't run flame charge, if your team can accommodate you enough to get a second clang (and heal with milk drunk if need be), this thing is a monster! One of my favorite lure sets!
Exploud is interesting. I saw that it got E-Speed (and I believe it's the only STAB user besides Eevee?) but I totally overlooked that it got explosion too! I feel like you're keeping us on our toes every time Wicked Blow shows up.
No Retreat really is becoming a potential issue. This + the Nidoking set and the Noivern set in particular I think might be problematic enough to need intervention. I'll talk with my co-leader and we'll have to figure out where we think this move should go.
Conk is going to be great: it also gets Gear Grind, Triple Axel, and you name it. I can even see it behind used outside of TR teams
Don't forget Reunc gets magic guard steel beam!
Here's a set that seems odd, but it hits obscenely hard.
Fairy And Balanced (Sylveon) @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Explosion
- Swords Dance
- Stealth Rock
Yes. Physical Sylveon. Unboosted, it's attack stat only hits 251, but 1 Swords Dance and you will deal a stupid amount of damage with espeed to even resisted targets. Espeed has a base power of 172 with Pixilate, Pixie Plate and stab. Explosion is actually absurd. Explosion hits with a base power of 540. Yeah. Here's how hard +6 Explosion hits.
+6 252+ Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 437-515 (143.7 - 169.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 252+ Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 328-387 (107.8 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This deletes pretty much everything, except max defense Heatran.
+6 252+ Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 283-333 (73.3 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Swords dance is there for obvious reasons. The 4th slot is really up to you, but Earthquake is a good choice so you don't need to go boom on pex and a weakened Heatran, but hazards or recovery is nice too.
EDIT: I didn't realize I had the calcs set on doubles. Oops!
Fairy And Balanced (Sylveon) @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Explosion
- Swords Dance
- Stealth Rock
Yes. Physical Sylveon. Unboosted, it's attack stat only hits 251, but 1 Swords Dance and you will deal a stupid amount of damage with espeed to even resisted targets. Espeed has a base power of 172 with Pixilate, Pixie Plate and stab. Explosion is actually absurd. Explosion hits with a base power of 540. Yeah. Here's how hard +6 Explosion hits.
+6 252+ Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 437-515 (143.7 - 169.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 252+ Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 328-387 (107.8 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This deletes pretty much everything, except max defense Heatran.
+6 252+ Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 283-333 (73.3 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Swords dance is there for obvious reasons. The 4th slot is really up to you, but Earthquake is a good choice so you don't need to go boom on pex and a weakened Heatran, but hazards or recovery is nice too.
EDIT: I didn't realize I had the calcs set on doubles. Oops!
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There are two facets: in building, and my opponent's pokemon in battle.
The firm of those is easier to solve for. The existing resources of the "letters" available works, but it's slower than the ideal experience of just knowing what something gets. I.e. the dream is "I want to set my metagame in the builder, and have the properties of the pokemon updated in the pokedex". Obviously a larger effort for all OMs and showdown generally.
For in battle, without playing enough to know the common sets, I am never going to know what something *could* have, unless I know the prevos. Something like the inheritance overlay for the letters available would help.
We were talking and we definitely agree that the teambuilder portion of your suggestion would be great! A lot of the scaffolding is already there and metas like STAB have their own equivalent. At least on paper, this should be relatively easy to do. If/When the Prevo Clause poll succeeds, we'll see what we can do!
In terms of in-game overlays, currently we feel that it might be "too much". The reasoning is that in other metas (even the tiered ones), the onus is on the player to know the potential moves their opponent's Pokemon could have. STAB has a similar policy in that Pokemon with "extra access" like Sylveon and Rotom don't get an overlay, despite those additional types.
That said, I'm not necessarily opposed and we can see how things go!
Is there anything else we can do?
Prevo Clause has officially passed! 
Anyone who was hesitant to make sets, now is your time! 
Thank you to everyone that voted and took place in the conversation!
pinging Kris and The Immortal for help in implementation
Keep in mind Doom Desire will only trigger from Blade Aegislash if its active in the field.Hi Hello I have some trash I want to litter about the thread
Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: Liquid Voice
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Moonblast
- Psystrike
- Flip Turn
It might be too late for this to work but I thought STAB Boomburst sounded really funny, and indeed it is pretty funny.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Liquid Voice Primarina Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 283-334 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Psystrike does more damage to targets like Blissey and Toxapex, but really you could click Boomburst against anything without a 4x resist/immunity and get mileage. There's plenty more coverage options you can run if you want like Blue Flare to smack Grass types.
Aegislash @ Metal Coat/Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Doom Desire
- Anchor Shot
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball
Switch into something that doesn't threaten you, and depending on the situation you can either get a trap off with Anchor Shot and then Doom Desire, or skip the first step and just fire off a Doom Desire. Pair with some really strong Fighting/Dark/Dragon type to pressure Fairies looking to block you. I don't know about the rest of the set just make it do Aegislash things. Big shame it doesn't get a pivot move outside of Healing Wish.
Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Cage
- Protect
- Substitute
- Taunt
Loses to ground-types but you can literally just ruin the will to live of your opponent should they not have an Electric immunity
I'm back to drop a few bits of wisdom cool sets for y'all!
(Also, I see that I managed to get scolipede on the watchlist XD)
Beedrill Wannabe (Escavalier) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 52 Def / 116 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- King's Shield
- Extreme Speed
- Megahorn
- Iron Head
Escavalier doesn't gain much, but what he does gain is really good for him. King's Shield is great for walling physical attackers, stalling out turns, and scouting for any kind of fire type move that may threaten him. Espeed is really great on Escavalier, giving him great spammable priority that deals a hefty chunk of damage, especially when paired with Life Orb. Also thanks to Espeed, he isn't as reliant on having Trick Room up. Iron Head and Megahorn for stab.
Skull Dragin' (Flapple) @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- False Surrender
- Grav Apple
- Flip Turn
Flapple feels kinda like Dracovish with how much damage it does, but with more versatility in it's moves. First Impression lets Flapple bypass it's lower speed and hits really hard making it great for revenge killing, at the cost of having to switch the next turn. False Surrender is a 80 bp dark type move that ignores Hustles accuracy drop, making it his safest move. Grav Apple is his strongest attack thanks to stab, great for stall breaking, and deals over 50% to max defense Toxapex. Flip Turn lets him pivot, while dealing good damage and providing water coverage.
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Flapple Grav Apple (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 153-181 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
(This calc doesn't even take Grav Apples defense drop into account.)
Works better on rain teams as it reduces damage taken from fire types, and Flip Turn hits as hard as First Impression does.
Santa Bird (Tornadus-Therian) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Thunder
- Weather Ball
- Teleport
Tornadus becomes a solid offensive attacker in rain with it's access to Hurricane and Weather Ball, and gains Thunder. He also now has the option of being a slow pivot with Teleport, in order to bring in frailer pokemon safely.
For the record, I've created at least 150 different sets so far.Where's my guinness world record at?
(Also, I see that I managed to get scolipede on the watchlist XD)
Beedrill Wannabe (Escavalier) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 52 Def / 116 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- King's Shield
- Extreme Speed
- Megahorn
- Iron Head
Escavalier doesn't gain much, but what he does gain is really good for him. King's Shield is great for walling physical attackers, stalling out turns, and scouting for any kind of fire type move that may threaten him. Espeed is really great on Escavalier, giving him great spammable priority that deals a hefty chunk of damage, especially when paired with Life Orb. Also thanks to Espeed, he isn't as reliant on having Trick Room up. Iron Head and Megahorn for stab.
Skull Dragin' (Flapple) @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- False Surrender
- Grav Apple
- Flip Turn
Flapple feels kinda like Dracovish with how much damage it does, but with more versatility in it's moves. First Impression lets Flapple bypass it's lower speed and hits really hard making it great for revenge killing, at the cost of having to switch the next turn. False Surrender is a 80 bp dark type move that ignores Hustles accuracy drop, making it his safest move. Grav Apple is his strongest attack thanks to stab, great for stall breaking, and deals over 50% to max defense Toxapex. Flip Turn lets him pivot, while dealing good damage and providing water coverage.
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Flapple Grav Apple (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 153-181 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
(This calc doesn't even take Grav Apples defense drop into account.)
Works better on rain teams as it reduces damage taken from fire types, and Flip Turn hits as hard as First Impression does.
Santa Bird (Tornadus-Therian) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Thunder
- Weather Ball
- Teleport
Tornadus becomes a solid offensive attacker in rain with it's access to Hurricane and Weather Ball, and gains Thunder. He also now has the option of being a slow pivot with Teleport, in order to bring in frailer pokemon safely.
For the record, I've created at least 150 different sets so far.
Buzzwole @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 140 HP / 112 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Bullet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Leech Life
I have no idea how good Belly Drum actually is, I just wanted to make a funny set with Buzzwole. EV spread is weird so Beast Boost can raise Defense to make Buzzwole tough to kill physically instead of just wasting the ability. Bullet Punch is for picking off opponents that can tank a +6 Buzzwole's STABs, or just weak opponents.
Moltres-Galar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Milk Drink
- Fiery Wrath
- Hurricane / Air Slash / Moonblast
Like seeing me proc Berserk? Wanna see me do it again and have you do the offensive setting up for me? There's probably a better way to do this, but I'm too tired right now to think up a better set. (Moonblast is its strongest one-turn non-suicidal special coverage move.)
Don't have sets for these two, but they're notably the only non-Diancie rock types that now get Diamond Storm, giving them a reliable Physical Rock STAB that has a high chance of raising defense. There's probably something with that able to make the two of them at least a little relevant...
Big banlist updates!
is banned.
is banned.
Double Iron Bash returns to restricted.
Thousand Arrows returns to restricted.
Electrify is banned.
Also made some removals and additions with the watchlist. We will probably not make explicit updates for this, so keep an eye out!
is banned. is banned.Double Iron Bash returns to restricted.
Thousand Arrows returns to restricted.
Electrify is banned.
Also made some removals and additions with the watchlist. We will probably not make explicit updates for this, so keep an eye out!
Could you explain your reasoning for this
So i played some games with alaserdolphin today to test a team, and i wanted to post my thoughts on a team archetype.
WEATHER
I've only tested rain and built for sun, but so far they seem like they can be pretty solid in the metagame.
RAIN
For rain there's a lot you can abuse, something that stood out to me was
potential specifically and how op can be under rain.
From Alphabet cup barraskewda gets electric coverage so it isn't walled by pex, and thundurus gets boltbeam coverage with nasty plot and focus blast (no switch in). Another mon that's amazing for rain is
it gets flip turn, spikes and slack off, all it needs. I can definitely see this archetype thriving early meta as many teams aren't prepared for it.
SUN
For sun, there's less you can abuse but I can still see it being viable, some pokemon i've tried are
and 
Yes, blue flare venusaur and bolt strike blaceph, the only thing i can really see countering venusaur is pex (and ditto), as long as they make the correct plays at least. but overall I can see sun being viable in the early meta as well.
That's it for now, hopefully alphabet cup can take omotm, and I'm excited to be able to ladder in the next few days.
WEATHER
I've only tested rain and built for sun, but so far they seem like they can be pretty solid in the metagame.
RAIN
For rain there's a lot you can abuse, something that stood out to me was
potential specifically and how op can be under rain.Thundurus (M) @ Chill Drive
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Techno Blast
- Thunder
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast
Barraskewda @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Bolt Strike
- Close Combat
- Flip Turn
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Techno Blast
- Thunder
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast
Barraskewda @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Bolt Strike
- Close Combat
- Flip Turn
From Alphabet cup barraskewda gets electric coverage so it isn't walled by pex, and thundurus gets boltbeam coverage with nasty plot and focus blast (no switch in). Another mon that's amazing for rain is
it gets flip turn, spikes and slack off, all it needs. I can definitely see this archetype thriving early meta as many teams aren't prepared for it.SUN
For sun, there's less you can abuse but I can still see it being viable, some pokemon i've tried are
and Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Growth
Blacephalon @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Blue Flare
- Shadow Ball
- Bolt Strike
- Bonemerang
(shoutout to Flaming Deoxys for the set)
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Growth
Blacephalon @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Blue Flare
- Shadow Ball
- Bolt Strike
- Bonemerang
(shoutout to Flaming Deoxys for the set)
Yes, blue flare venusaur and bolt strike blaceph, the only thing i can really see countering venusaur is pex (and ditto), as long as they make the correct plays at least. but overall I can see sun being viable in the early meta as well.
That's it for now, hopefully alphabet cup can take omotm, and I'm excited to be able to ladder in the next few days.