Lower Tiers GSC PU Viability Rankings (Furret-less Post #16)

[DAWNBUSTER]

GSC PU Viability Rankings


Welcome to the GSC PU Viability Rankings! Pokemon are ordered by effectiveness!
​

PUBL
Hitmonchan
Furret


S Rank

S1
01: Venomoth
02: Elekid
A Rank

A1
03: Seaking
04: Noctowl
05: Seadra
06: Hitmontop
07: Delibird

A2
08: Cubone
09: Rhyhorn
10: Tangela
11: Flaaffy
12: Sneasel
13: Gastly
14: Drowzee

B RANK

B1
15: Magcargo
16: Sunflora
17: Golbat
18: Corsola
19: Poliwhirl
20: Bayleef

B2
21: Wartortle
22: Abra
23: Clefairy
24: Voltorb
25: Machoke
26: Murkrow
27: Geodude

C RANK

C1
28: Mantine
29: Ponyta
30: Ariados
31: Beedrill
32: Eevee
33: Staryu

D Rank

D1
34: Charmeleon
35: Koffing
36: Aipom

D2
37: Nidorino
38: Parasect
39: Weepinbell
40: Omanyte
41: Snubbul

 

[DAWNBUSTER]

Just gonna make a few nominations after playing this tier more.



A- to A

These two are very good, and I think both could be moved up to A. Magcargo is one of the best defensive Pokemon available, and I think it’s virtually mandatory on defensive teams. I’ve been using a more offensive set with Fire Blast/Sunny Day/Rest/Sleep Talk that can work well vs quite a lot. Seaking is a hugely threatening offensive threat with decent coverage, Sub Seaking in particular can do well vs defensive teams.


A to A+

Hitmonchan has really established itself as a top Pokemon with Body Slam now legal on it. It’s really tough to switch into Body Slam since a lot of stuff that naturally checks it is ruined by paralysis, Murkrow and Venomoth being good examples. Agility sets seem to have success as well.


A- to B+

Gastly is not amazing atm and seems to be getting dropped on most teams. It has serious downsides being fragility, Murkrow weakness, and all around inconsistency.


B to B+

Both of these are threatening with the right support and can become difficult to stop if your team is paralysed. Geodude has a great STAB Combo and can break open holes for teamates with Explosion. Beedrill can be similarly good with Substitute and Swords Dance


B- to B

Heal Bell is a hugely useful tool for Pokemon like Curse Surf Furret. Snubbull can also fit well on offensive teams with their weakness to status moves

 

[Earthworm]

I really like the Magcargo set, simultaneously boosting your Fire Blast and also nerfing Surf Furret (thanks to Magcargo's actually decent SpDef stat for a Rock-type) sounds like it could potentially be very useful. Seaking is a Pokemon I expected to be really good as well, but it hadn't seemed to be living up to the hype so much. I think now that the metagame has shifted away from Elekid a bit, it is finally showing up.

Beedrill I think is very hit-or-miss. There are some Pokemon it doesn't deal with well, like Psychic Venomoth. But this weakness can probably be overcome since Body Slam Hitmonchan can probably paralyse it now. In fact, I would expect that Body Slam Hitmonchan is going to nerf Venomoth by a huge amount, since it was one of Venomoth's main opportunities to switch in and start wreaking havoc before without having to risk paralysis against Tangela for example, but now most teams seem to have fat Pokemon that can deal with Venomoth pretty easily. I'm curious as to whether Venomoth can somehow switch to a Sleep Talk set itself as an adaptation without losing too much efficacy.

Gastly I think is going to turn out to be decent. I expect that people will be able to get it to work if they try hard enough. It walls RestTalk Body Slam Hitmonchan, after all. I suppose it has some problems getting around Magcargo / Flaaffy / Drowzee / Murkrow though.. Perhaps some of them can be dealt with using coverage moves (Thunder, HP Water or Shadow Ball maybe?) and the others with Explosion? Seems like it might be a good way to get Elekid to work.

 

[Lobissa]

B+ to A-

These 2 are great fits at paralysis based teams, and for that I think they should be ranked a bit higher.


Clefairy's set of Curse/Body Slam/Moonlight/Filler is very simple and effective. The filler can be basically anything that fits your team better, Thunder Wave can spread paralysis against specific targets, Counter can suprise KO a fighting type trying to hit Clefairy for super effective damage and Clefairy's big special movepool is there for testing.

Rhyhorn is a great counter to Curse RestTalk Normals like Furret and Noctowl with its Curse/QuakeSlide/Roar since Rhyhorn can just setup alongside them or just phaze them out, it struggles against Water and Grass types, but with some chip damage and paralysis spreading, it can muscle through them.

 

[DAWNBUSTER]

View attachment 294531View attachment 294533
B+ to A-

These 2 are great fits at paralysis based teams, and for that I think they should be ranked a bit higher.


Clefairy's set of Curse/Body Slam/Moonlight/Filler is very simple and effective. The filler can be basically anything that fits your team better, Thunder Wave can spread paralysis against specific targets, Counter can suprise KO a fighting type trying to hit Clefairy for super effective damage and Clefairy's big special movepool is there for testing.

Rhyhorn is a great counter to Curse RestTalk Normals like Furret and Noctowl with its Curse/QuakeSlide/Roar since Rhyhorn can just setup alongside them or just phaze them out, it struggles against Water and Grass types, but with some chip damage and paralysis spreading, it can muscle through them.

Regarding Clefairy, I definitely agree with this. It can be tough to stop when it gets going without a Normal-resist and also can spread paralysis reliably for slower threats such as Machoke. Rhyhorn I haven’t used much myself, but it does seem to have success as a stop to Surfless Furret, so I support both of these nominations

 

[toaster04]

B+ to A, possibly A-

In my personal opinion this cute little spiral shell mon does a lot more than you'd expect and should be moved up once (or twice)! Technically speaking, Omanyte has the ability to defensively check some of the most prominent Pokemon in the metagame; examples being Furret lacking HP Grass / Surf and multiple curses, Delibird, etc.

Great physical bulk makes it stand out pretty well. It is also able to defend from +4 Belly Drum Charmeleon with ease, while generally being a great choice for defensive teams. The ability to use Haze and being a great option all around makes this thing a cool mon imo. I think it deserves some more traction, because it's defensive utility can't be let down.

 

[LpZ]

A to low A+ or at least 11. to 7.

Despite of its frailty I'd like to make this nomination, Elekid is such a beast that needs serious respect on teambuilder, it hits decently hard with a good movepool and it has a great speed tier, being one of the fastest mons out there, if you don't have Drowzee, Flaaffy or Sunflora you are in a really painful spot. I consider almost mandatory on every offensive team, being able to matchup well against opposing offense due to its high speed and being able to break common defensive cores. When paired with a layer of Spikes it becomes such a behemoth, every defensive answer needs to heal in order to repeatedly switch in against it and it can win games on its own if the foe lacks a sturdy switchin.

I can't see it being below Abra, Tangela, Magcargo and Drowzee (I do have my doubts on it being higher than Poliwhirl) but it really looks like as effective as an A+ pokemon.


B+ to A-

I understand it is usually overshadowed by Tangela as a bulky Grass-type due to stats allowing it to be one of the only checks to threats like the Hitmons, Poliwhirl and Cubone and the ability to spread status, but I think Sunflora has its space at A-. It is one of the only (if not the only) solid defensive answer to Seadra and a reliable check to Elekid as I mentioned above. It does suffer quite a bit from Venomoth and Murkrow being two of the most used mons in the tier and the dominance of Furret (this thing is stupid) does not help either, but it has the ability to break through walls such as hazeless Mantine and Drowzee with little effort thanks to its access to Growth. Nevertheless I gotta admit I'm kinda backed against the wall doing this specific nomination due to its notable flaws and comparing it with the mons at A- and B+ (Its probably worse than almost everything at A- but I feel that its way better than everything at B+).

Great job with this list ReeceHughes , it looks very accurate overall

 

[darkness_poke2]

Great ranking I think. Just opinion of mine;

C＋→B or B＋
sample sets; Swords dance/Body slam/Synthesis/Hidden power ground
This pokemon has potential as sweeper in this tier. His decent bulk can survive 2 times double-edge of Furret,or 2 times ice punch of Abla, so he can set swords dance easily. After single swords dance, he beats many pokemon 3〜4hits.
Hidden power grownd is for magcargo and gastly.

B-→B or B＋
sample set; Sludge bomb/Stun spore/Synthesis/Encore
Weepinbell is well-known as sleep powder＋swords-dance sweeper in this tier, but he can also fulfill a defensive role. For example, the set abobe can be a great counter of "hitmons". he gets little damage by hitmons unless they have body slam. when they use curse, he can counter completely by using Encore.

B→A-
sample set; Surf/Toxic/Recover/Ice beam or Sandstorm@MystericWater or Leftovers
Just simple; Corsola walls almost evely Furret. This is enough reason to use him in this tier. By having Mysteric water, he maybe defeat Furret 3 times of surf. He also can wall other threats as magcargo, abla, venomoth, seadra, murkrow. You must take care of hidden power glass, but this pokemon can be consider as a "great guardian" in this tier.

C→B
sample set; Earthquake/Explosion/Roar/Toxic
Useful rock/ground pokemon. I think he isn't outclassed by geodude, or even rhyhorn maybe. He can walls baton passer by roar. He outspeeds tangela, and can damage him by Explosion.

B→B＋,

A-→B＋
Ariados has higher bulk than Aibom, and has resistance to fighting type. he also can use spider web＋baton pass, which is very usefull to break opponent's party, and what is great, it isn't walled by haze. I think it is reasonable to put "the two greatest baton passer" in the same rank.

out of rank→C＋
sample set; Hidden power flying/Endure/Reversal/Giga drain@FocusBand or MiracleBerry
Completely foggoten S95, but he seems not so bad. Hp-flying＋Giga drain has good coverage, and Reversal damages Furret and Magcargo.

 

[slayer21809]

i havent played this tier but why is furret s+

 

[LpZ]

He also can wall other threats as magcargo, abla, venomoth, seadra, murkrow

Corsola can take care of some Furret variants, Magcargo and Murkrow, but by no means it can handle well Abra, Seadra and Venomoth.

Abra hits it decently hard and packs Thunder Punch to deal more damage to it. Although Abra can`t 2HKO it, you can`t just try to stall it out because it can drop your SpD with Psychic or para you with Thunder Punch/Thunder Wave.

Calcs

Abra Thunder Punch vs. Corsola: 125-148 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Twisted Spoon Abra Psychic vs. Corsola: 122-144 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Abra Psychic vs. Corsola: 112-132 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- 91.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Corsola Surf vs. Abra: 113-133 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- 20.6% chance to 2HKO

Seadra simply does not care at all about Corsola, in fact Corsola is used as setup fodder by Seadra if it has Substitute (which I can tell you that is most of the time) and anyone who played a decent amount of gsc pu games knows how painful it can be if you give Seadra a free subs.

Calcs

Seadra Surf vs. Corsola: 110-130 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- 80.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Seadra Hydro Pump vs. Corsola: 140-165 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Seadra Surf vs. Corsola in Rain: 165-195 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- 99.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Seadra Hydro Pump vs. Corsola in Rain: 210-247 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Corsola Surf vs. Seadra: 62-73 (20.8 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

The Venomoth mention is not that notable, because the real threat Venomoth can present is Giga Drain, this is not the most used option on Venomoth but I thought I should mention this because it is more common on Venomoth than HP Grass is on Furret.

Calcs

Venomoth Giga Drain vs. Corsola: 180-212 (57.5 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Corsola Surf vs. Venomoth: 95-112 (27.6 - 32.6%) -- 75.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Corsola Rock Slide vs. Venomoth: 158-186 (46 - 54.2%) -- 4.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[JonAmon 25]

i havent played this tier but why is furret s+

Furret is able to sweep using Curse + Double Edge vs. a lot of teams incredibly easily with very little checks in Rock types like Magcargo, Rhyhorn, and Corsola and the rare-ish Gastly. However, any checks it would have are baited and OHKO'd with coverage such as Surf and HP Grass. Without these checks, Furret can very easily spam a now unresisted Double Edge and 2HKO most of the tier.

 

[darkness_poke2]

I now understand that it is difficult to say that corsola can deal with seadra or abra, venomoth. but, I wonder that if corsola carries sandstorm, seadra's substitute isn't so much threats for him, maybe. It's not based on experience, just guess, sry

 

[DAWNBUSTER]

It’s been a while and there’s a few changes I think should be made to this



Hitmonchan is the clear second best Pokemon in the tier and fits into every team without drawback. It 1v1s an absolute ridiculous amount of the tier and the few Pokemon that can switch into it(Slowpoke, Gastly, and Drowzed being good example), mostly all get Pursuited. It shapes the tier to such a degree that I’m suggesting it to be S-Rank.



These three are definitely the 3rd, 4th, and 5th of the tier, but I’m not sure how to order them. I’d personally go with Seadra>Murkrow>Venomoth, as Seadra is almost impossible to wall without a Pokemon such as Sunflora while providing the role of a Hazer that pretty much every team needs. Krow pairs almost perfectly with Hitmonchan and CurseTalk Furret, and having insane speed alongside solid offensive power make it a true wildcard on teams. Venomoth is definitely not the number 2 mon I believe, as while it provides insane utility, the prominence of Body Slam Hitmonchan which can cripple as well as Magcargo has made it worse then it once was.

 

[Hex Poisonous]

What kind of sets would you run on Murkrow?

 

[Dw16]

What kind of sets would you run on Murkrow?

Drill Peck
Haze
Hidden Power Dark
Pursuit
Or
Drill Peck
Curse
Hidden Power Ground
Return.
Only Use this Second set on Baton Pass Chains

 

[Aurist]

Hello all, we finally have an update for the GSC PU Viability Rankings in the post-Furret ban metagame!

To qualify to vote on the VR, the criteria was the following: Top 2 in Furret banned tour, Top 2 in GSC PU Open 1, Top 3 in GSC PU Open 2, 1 GSC PU win in ALT PL, 1 GSC PU win in PUBD. This led to the following qualified voters:

QUALIFIED VOTERS

BeeOrSomething, Estarossa, BloodAce, LpZ, dawnbuster, vani, DiannieRatson, MrSoup, Aurist, SANKE CARP, Amaranth (abstained), zben, BigFatMantis

We asked each of the voters to rank available pokemon in order, input them into a data sheet, and used vapicuno method to produce the subtiers based on that data.

The ranks are as follows:

S1:
S2:
A1:
A2:
B: (presumed cutoff)
C1:
C2:
C3:
D:

Peoples' votes are below, and for the mathematically inclined and the data curious, you will also find info on how the tiers were developed.

VOTES AND DATA

The original voting sheet with everyone's votes is located here. The "Graphical" tab is where you will find the overall picture of peoples' voting order.

The OP of this thread will be edited ASAP with the up to date VR.

Thank you to Wanted in 49 States and DiannieRatson for your help in getting this all together, would have been a much longer and more difficult process without you!

 

[BeeOrSomething]

S tier

The moth can truly do it all. There is nearly no downside to using it and it has incredibly flexibility, power, and speed. Sludge Bomb and Psychic is all it really needs and it has a really good movepool. Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Hidden Power Water, Giga Drain, Curse, Curse + BP, RestTalk, Screech, and other more fringe picks like Whirlwind, Thief, and Reflect are all great options. Moth is extraordinarily oppressive and never ineffective and it's the sole S tier in PU. Anyone who doesn't agree with Moth being #1 is silly to me.

A+ tier

The most oppressive pokemon, even more so than Venomoth. Admittedly due to how oppressive it is its own effectiveness is somewhat diminished because it forces the opponent to build to shut it down. That quality though and Seadra's great defensive traits, forcing of certain lines and sometimes awkward play, end game power, ability to BS with crit or freeze, and ofc the ability to destroy everything if the opponent doesn't built properly results in Seadra being incredible and a serious pain in the ass.
By far the most common lead and one of the most common mons in general, Kid is extremely easy to throw on a team and it will usually do something. Electric STAB is strong and it has a variety of other good moves. Psychic and Ice Punch are mainstays on RestTalk sets to let Kid mess with other Kid or Flaaffy, and Psychic hits Hitmontop while Ice Punch hits grounds and grasses. RestTalk is definitely the most common, but there are other good sets. I'm particularly a fan of Thunder/Ice Punch/HP Ground + Pursuit or Thief if you can fit it (s/o zben) since it grants utility while directly breaking through other Kid, its most common check. Great mon but definitely not #1. I can see #2 though.
Amazing pokemon. The most common set is SD RestTalk which compresses so much utility with checking Venomoth, Ice Beam Seadra, Drowzee, and more, and when supported properly or against a poorly equipped team will completely blow through everything. Non-RestTalk is underrated but significantly more difficult to fit on a team. SD/Return/HP Ground + Protect, Agility, or Sub has solid potential since HP Ground is really great for all the normal resists (though it doesn't help with Tangela), and the other moves do other things. Protect is good Leftovers healing, Agility can let you outrun Elekid if you get it off safely, and Sub blocks Giga Drain Tangela. RestTalk is often forced though bc of how much it does, and it's checked by all the normal resists and Tangela, and Elekid and sometimes Noctowl are annoying.
One of a few definitively forceful progress makers. Noctowl and Tangela are the only true stops, though Delibird, Bayleef, Sunflora, and Seadra can be annoying. Eq 2HKOes everything else and Bone is useful defensively.

A tier

Similar to Seaking, though different. Worse into Seadra but better into Cubone and grasses.
Normal resists are mandatory for a lot of teams and Rhyhorn is a great one. Fairly strong threat that can fit Toxic for the grasses, and helps out against electrics and Drowzee. Seadra is a pain in the ass though and random coverage moves are a serious danger. Also doesn't have an easy time breaking through even poisoned Tangela.
Normal resist that has Explosion, which is really great. Sometimes feels limited though bc it wants to boom Elekid but it wants to stay alive for their normal type, so tends to want some help in builder. Boom is really great though and some teams are just totally unprepared to handle it. Last slot has good flexibility; I usually tend towards HP Water, but Ice, Sub, and Thief are good too.
My opinion of Top has fallen drastically. Feel like a lot of the time its relegated to crit fishing or hoping the opponent brought Spikes or some other fragile team. Still fairly good but sometimes flaccid offensively.

A- tier

One of my biggest risers. Tangela does really well in its specialized role as a physical stopper and boosting threat. Should always be Growth/Giga/Synth, and then HP Psy or HP Ice last. I usually prefer psychic.
Building with Delibird is atrocious but Spikes are indeed good and it learns Thief too.
Delibird is mandatory with it which greatly diminishes its value to me because Sneasel is quite cool. One of the best Seadra answers, really good against Tang and Flora, and does solid damage with Spikes up. Doesn't actually have too many checks (Top, Choke, Cargo, Clef, Corsola) which makes building to account for it somewhat annoying.
Cool boosting threat with Twave and Moonlight for instant recovery. Noctowl does cool things that it can't like checking Cubone and Venomoth but Clefairy is still a threat and standing in the way of Sneasel and spreading para is v cool.
Check to Moth, Top, Elekid, Gastly, and Tang and spreads paralysis very easily. Fairly passive though so mostly a defensive piece.

B+ tier

Notable difference between usage vs how much it does in battle. It has a nice collection of good traits; blocks the mononormal sweepers, stonewalls Sneasel, good against Seadra, and good against most Magcargos. Often walled or severely inconvenienced in-game though by Elekid, Venomoth, all the grasses, Hitmontop, and Machoke.
Somewhat difficult to build w and to a degree inconsistent in-battle due to speed and accuracy, but it's very powerful. Very little can switch into Thunder + HP Ice consistently asides from other Electrics, which u can use to your advantage.
Midground of stats between Tang and Flora. Has good bulk on both physical and special side. Very poor at using special attacks though so you have to run Curse/Bslam/Razor/Synth (s/o zben btw). Walled by Noct and Cargo and Gastly is annoying for it (unlike for Tang and Flora generally), but can pose a serious threat in some cases. Can cheese through Venomoth too if you land para and Sleep Powder is unvailable.
Other side of the Tangela coin. Can't check Seaking or Hitmontop and is worse vs Cubone, but much stronger and is specially fatter. Bayleef sometimes feels better but other times u want Flora bc not only is it a special attacker but it's also a pretty good Gastly switch.

B tier

Extremely demanding threat that is unfortunately difficult to build with due to a lack of any defensive use and being outran by Elekid.
I was p low on this thing cause it's inconsistent but very recently I've found use for it. It's a good Sneasel and Hitmontop check with CC/Bslam/Rest/Talk that generally does good damage and can annoy Moth with chip and paralysis. Being such a strong physical mon is also appreciated against the electrics.
I had this a bit higher but I tanked the placing a bit. Even on Spikes Bat feels difficult to truly justify, not to mention that it's unviable without them which imposes its own restrictions upon teambuilding. Its ability to check Top and non-Bayleef grasses just isn't super necessary when there's stuff like Seadra, Moth, and Noctowl to check them, but it can definitely be a threat with its coverage and Screech with Spikes up.

B- tier

Pokemon that is only really good at exactly like 2 things because it's made of complete paper. Really great stop to Noctowl, Talk Seaking, and Clef just like Horn, and can spin away Spikes. It's so hard to switch it in though since it's so fragile. It takes nearly 50 from Moth and Kid's psychics. At least it can threaten out Elekid though if u get it in on Thunder. Also so much worse than Horn if you don't play against Spikes.
Exploder with Twave and incredible speed is really cool, but again, difficult to fit. HP Water is definitely right bc it pops Rhyhorn and Twave is good enough to annoy the grasses. Solid at luring Elekid, Hitmontop, and Rhyhorn and exploding (or hidden powering) which can enable threats. Also has screens which is perhaps underexplored.
One of the most overrated mons. It so rarely makes a standout impact on the battle and its defensive roles are so replaceable. Fire Blast/Grass/RestTalk demands it be used with another normal resist and Curse/Blast/Slide/Protect has so many issues with status and longevity, and regardless Cargo will struggle with Seadra, fighting types, and grounds. Not to say it does nothing. It still needs to be accounted for on certain teams (i.e. Kid/Seaking/Bay/Gastly/Moth + Cubone/Delibird/Flaaffy is not very good into Cargo) but largely it's quite poor.
Pretty cool mon that I haven't gotten to use yet but is quite interesting. Surf/Zap Cannon/Spin/Protect makes for a good Ice Beam Seadra answer that can spin away Spikes, be a decent temporary switch to the grounds, and be annoying with ZC. Seaking and Seadra give it a ton of competition though and it doesn't do a whole lot into non-Spike mus.

C+ tier

Pokemon that does a lot of damage but in practice tends to be way too fragile and often will get stopped by Noctowl/Seaking, Drowzee, or Sneasel. Also difficult to build with because it contributes nothing defensively.
Pursuit and Thief is cool but difficult to build bc again, it does very little defensively and also it's severely annoyed by Elekid, Seadra, Seaking, Noctowl, Sneasel, Clefairy, Flaaffy, Corsola, Magcargo, and Rhyhorn which sucks a lot. Also wants 3 different hidden powers. Dark for Seadra, Water for Rhyhorn and Cargo, and Ground for Cargo and to chip Elekid and Flaaffy and regardless of what u pick there's still so much more left to sit in front of Murkrow or hurt it.
Agility Pass can be cool. Should be using Sludge Bomb + Giga Drain/HP Water IMO bc of Roar Horn.
Somewhat similar to Golbat but a lot lower down. Very specialized role on Spikes teams (Moth + Grass check) but worse at getting stuff done cause it's less of a threat. Should be using HP Grass, doing something to Seadra and Horn is a lot more important than an extra move for like Elekid.

C tier

Agility passer but Ariados is better at it bc of bulk.

There are other miscellaneous Pokemon that may be somewhat useful i.e. ZU poison types, but to me they aren't regularly useful enough and are mostly limited to checking Hitmontop which is a role that is largely not necessary to have a dedicated pokemon towards. Of these, Koffing and Grimer are the most useful since they can explode and handle grasses somewhat in the scenario where you do not play Hitmontop, but largely they are limited beyond boom and often fail to catch actually good boom targets like Elekid. Eevee also does not make the cut because it is extremely difficult to switch into battle and even if you get +1 sp. atk off the pass recipient often will not sweep (Seadra is outran by Elekid and Elekid is fragile and has coverage issues on RestTalk).

Thank you torkonpeter for being so dedicated to prepping with me and asking for games btw. You popped off too.

 

[DiannieRatson]

Post-GSCPL V thoughts

VR



I’ll just discuss some of the changes ig instead of repeating what I also had written about these mons already in previous posts.

”Tier 1”

First up is hitmontop going down. I’ve seen some started to build without hitmontop and I don’t know how to explain it actually how this mon that could be a blanket check to most special atkers while being a progress maker since at least it could hp rock moth has been replaced in builder. Maybe it’s also that there’s just overlaps and hitmontop can get overwhelmed anyways inbattle. So in general, the common mons that check it in drowzee and golbat fell. Drowzee is still passive and has a harder time breaking noctowl than venomoth. Speaking of venomoth, this mon isn’t affected at all by the lower hitmontop usage trend as it does so many things aside from checking top. This mon is also not weak to elec unlike golbat.

Moving on to elekid and seadra, these mons are still game deciders. I had elekid higher since its speed really helps it to do wonders and personally had games being decided by it. And the reason why I have cubone at 4 now is also because it is one of the best progress makers in this tier. It could paraslam tangela and resttalk for longevity. Then list goes on with the usual seaking noctowl then the normal check rhyhorn.

This gscpl, I used spikes in all games except vs torkonpeter since I really expect spikeless in this matchup. My thought in teambuild and inbattle has also been kinda leaned towards delibird lately and going back to the hitmontop trend, I also find it tough to teambuild with spikes as if not cursetop, it seems it will just get overwhelmed trying to check everyone. This is where it being slower than the likes of seadra and gastly comes in.




Speaking of gastly, I put it in the next tier below rhyhorn. Spikes is more annoying for gastly especially if it wants the magnet thunder to 76% ohko murkrow instead of lefties or thief’ing lefties. I was actually thinking if I should gastly above or below sunflora but since sunflora checks elekid and seadra, I kinda value that part over. Then below gastly is the other top check in drowzee, then tangela which is lowkey rising as it is really threatening aside from being a better ground check than sunflora. Then I have magcargo that could keep these grasses in check then clefairy, the next normal type in this list.

”Tier”

I kinda classify sneasel as normal but its not a curse normal unlike clef. What makes clef unique is twave while sneasel is fast meaning it could atk twice an incoming check so if worn enough, especially with spikes, sneasel could lowkey sweep. I am also not sure though if it should be above machoke, a mon that could paraslam nonresttalk moth. I actually tried eq vs horodro and seems fine too. Corsola is tricky as it also involves taking its teammates in consideration since on its own, still looks vulnerable to a lot like the grasses and hitmontop. Elekid would respect rock slide but it still wants a solid check to that too so here comes a reliable partner in flaaffy. This electric could lose to seadra because it is slow and takes a lot from hydro pump. Murkrow is another tricky for me to rank since it doesn’t check hitmontop but its fast but also can’t make progress anyways coz even elekid could come in vs drill peck and it wants the right hidden power in the team.

Maybe this is where I personally would have the PU-ZU cutoff. Abra is tricky since it wants thunderpunch versus like seaking but then firepunch for sunflora and sneasel. So even with less murkrow around, there’s also noctowl anyway and drowzee. Ponyta also seems has a potential. It is not much of a moth check since it still takes a lot and like walled by magcargo so here comes a possible 4atk ponyta set ig. Voltorb is also something that could still be useful despite its screens has seen less since trappass ban. It could still like give support to like tangela ig. It is fast and could boom and twave. Poliwhirl is also tricky to rank. I already mentioned resttalk elekid makes it harder for this mon to bd sweep and seems it is still tough to look for its other uses aside from that. Then ariados is here affected by not only trappass but also drop in hitmontop usage.



Spinners in geodude and wartortle is here which I both used in gscpl. Staryu lower since I failed to create a spikes team with it. Prob could work in spikeless but only bring vs someone with high spikes usage xd. I haven’t tried bayleef but it could also support with screen while having that usefulness of being a grass type. Beedrill sweeping is also tough despite having double dance. Omanyte just further drops as it aint checking sd seaking in the long run xd. Charmeleon is something I tried with bp but still tough for me to use. Then there’s mantine that still have a hard time to find its place in this metagame full of waters and there’s elekid threatening it.

”The rest”

Aipom
Koffing
Grimer
Nidorina
Nidorino
Weepinbell
Tentacool

I kinda just lump in the poisons along with aipom

Onix
Parasect
Eevee
Slowpoke
Teddiursa
Ivysaur

Then in here the rest that I’ll also maybe try to have fun around with in indiv tours.

Here’s my vr list for now. I might do a teamdump post later which is also the teams I submitted to aurist for samples collection. (Looking forward to the wartortle spikes comp)

 

[Aurist]

I'm going to be posting the GSC PU sample teams shortly, but while I work out a couple details I wanted to make a post-GSCPL personal viability ranks post.

Anyone who watched GSCPL PU games will notice the fall off of Hitmontop , last voted close to unanimously #1 on the VR. Over time Top has felt simply less mandatory, being a good switch in to a huge portion of the tier but often finding itself struggling to make real progress. Despite that, Top still has many good matchups, is never a bad pick and is also seeing a bit of a resurgence of Curse sets including some cool non-sleep talk brings in the tour. I can't rightfully put it in S tier right now, but it's still pretty much a top 5 level mon.

Venomoth and Elekid have emerged as the clear top 2 in my mind, with Veno the definite #1 imo as the best utility and progress mon in the tier while Kid is still the fastest key meta mon and one of the hardest mons to properly switch into to the extent that its main check is itself.

More of a hot take but maybe not, is Seaking in 3rd, I personally feel no other mon can supplant it from this spot. The level of compression and threat this mon provides is unmatched, with its high natural bulk allowing it to be one of the few reliable (outside of hp elec crits) Seadra switch ins, a good Veno check that lasts through the game, a late game wincon and a mon that can race some of our curse users. While most of the time not wanting to deviate from SD/Return/Rest/Talk, the capacity to switch to a mixed set or run curse cannot be overlooked.

Delibird I've finally budged and thought of this as a top tier mon in my time playing and testing for GSCPL. It's no longer a dead slot that runs spikes, but a genuinely useful (but frail and limited switch ins) mon that can make progress and defines a whole teamstyle. While I've placed grasses quite low in my VR a lot of players are relying on them right now and Delibird is thriving.

A tier is loaded up with the top 3 curse normal checks (Rhyhorn, Magcargo, Gastly), the chief curse normal guy (Noctowl), the best breaker in the tier (Cubone) and one of the best utility/progress mons in Sneasel , who I feel is sorely underrated and underused. Screech Sneasel is one of the best mons available on Spikes which I also view as the best playstyle in the tier - it's a threat vs non-magcargo rocks, an off-curse check in itself which allows you to flex your team outside of running the same curse rock types or Gastly, it's capable of stalling Seadra/Veno/Elekid even through status and is just an all round threat. Gastly is also on the rise big time right now, feeling very consistent as a curse normal check that doesn't take chip to do it, with a bit more speed and initial power while also having quite a bit of flex with its moveset. It's much more limited in switch ins than Rhyhorn + Magcargo, but is nonetheless really useful on more aggressive builds, enough that I think it belongs pretty close to the top 10.

All 3 main grasses (Tangela , Bayleef , Sunflora ) find themselves in the B tier for me with Tangela rising above them in B+ due to being the best check to Cubone and Rhyhorn. I feel that grasses offer a lot of utility but are under too much pressure to get their job done half the time, often ending up a near-dead slot praying it doesn't get full para'd every time it comes in. A well placed, and lucky, grass type is a top 10 level mon but you simply don't get that in a lot of games right now I feel.

Other smaller notes:

• Abra feels like it's improving with people picking up Rest Talk, could be better than we feel.
• Murkrow continues its drop as it just simply doesn't do the things its stats promise it would.
• I might be underrating Clefairy though I feel it lacks parity with some of the meta due to relying on twave para while often needing to eat para itself.
• Geodude and Wartortle both feel cemented now as "not joke mons", in some matchups winning the spike war is as good as winning the game.

Baton Pass is still unhealthy without Spider Web. Our best mon in the tier being a Curse Passer is a volatile state for the tier to be in, and Agilipass to Cubone just autowins a number of non Tangela or Roar Rhyhorn matchups. I feel that Baton Pass is both unhealthy and offers nothing worth preserving, it would be nothing but a gain to ban that move and move on with our lives.

I am still of the mind that it would be great to take our next steps to consider phased unfreezing of NU low tier mons with E tier mons (Arbok and Azumarill) being first phase and evaluating from there if we want to introduce D tier mons. I haven't changed my mind particularly from my tiering hub posts but I can also understand people who are happy enough with the current state of PU that they don't see a need to change things.

That's all for now

 

[PorygonBG]

Personaly is my Gen 2 PU VR (ZUBL or PU only) .

: is the most offensive mon with the and he's Restalk set is very bulky.

: is the best lead, he is bulky, he's have Giga Drain and Sleep Power is very Strong vs othet leads like or .

: Great speed control and he's have a Great coverage vs or he's have Ice Punch for check or and Psychic for .

: he is a very bulky Pokémon. He is a great screen seter and support. He's a good support for Pokémon like .

: he is the best Thieffer in the tier. He is also à great speed control. He's Pursuit punish and he's STAB Drill PECK is very dangerous

 

[Aurist]

The VR update for GSC PU is here! Thanks once again to Wanted in 49 States for helping.

Thanks also to the voters, who qualified on the metric of: Semi Finals or later in Aurist individual tournament, 1 GSC PU win in GSC PL V, 1 GSC PU win in PUBD II, Semi Finals or later in GSC PU Open III. The users who qualified were the following: DiannieRatson, Alice Kazumi (abstained), BeeOrSomething, zben, torkonpeter, Aurist, BloodAce, feen (abstained), Horodro, BigFatMantis, vani, LustfulLice, Estarossa, gastlies (abstained), NotVeryCake, Real FV13, SANKE CARP.

The votes can be found here and stay tuned to the end of the post for some of the interesting data tables.

Here are the results:

Mini sprites version
S:
A1:
A2:
B1:
B2:
C:
D1:
D2:

S

01. Venomoth (+1)
02. Elekid (+1)

A1
03. Seaking (+4)
04. Noctowl (+1)
05. Seadra (-1)
06. Hitmontop (-5)
07. Delibird (+5)

A2
08. Cubone (~)
09. Rhyhorn (+1)
10. Tangela (+10)
11. Flaaffy (+2)
12. Sneasel (+6)
13. Gastly (+2)
14. Drowzee (-5)

B1
15. Magcargo (-1)
16. Sunflora (-10)
17. Golbat (~)
18. Corsola (+3)
19. Poliwhirl (+7)
20. Bayleef (+14)

B2
21. Wartortle (+21)
22. Abra (-3)
23. Clefairy (~)
24. Voltorb (+1)
25. Machoke (-3)
26. Murkrow (-15)
27. Geodude (+1)

C
28. Mantine (+12)
29. Ponyta (-5)
30. Ariados (-14)
31. Beedrill (-1)
32. Eevee (-3)
33. Staryu (-2)

D1
34. Charmeleon (+3)
35. Koffing (+1)
36. Aipom (-9)

D2
37. Nidorino (-4)
38. Parasect (+8)
39. Weepinbell (-1)
40. Omanyte (-8)
41. Snubbull (NEW)

The list of Pokemon who became unranked due to a lack of votes (less than 2 across the slate):
Grimer Ivysaur Onix Slowpoke

and here's some fun data visualisations for you:

Dissimilarity

Dendrogram (similarities) across mons

Dendrogram (similarities) across users in ranks S/A1/A2

Dendrogram (similarities) across users in ranks S/A1/A2/B1/B2

Dendrogram (similarities) across users in ranks C/D1/D2

Rank improvement graph

z-score improvement graph