-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations
- Thread starter Kurona
- Start date
"A consecutive three-spin attack that becomes more powerful with each successful hit."
As simple as that.
Which is precisely why I'm curious about the move description in japanese, and see whether it mentions kicking or not, and either claim that it's a mistake from the translation team (a la Fishious Rend) or not. That being said, I found a description in another language (french) and it also mentions kicking, so unless all translations made the same mistake...
Last edited:
It might be an animation limitation. Ideally, the pokemon jumps up, spins three times, hitting the opponent on each spin, then landing, but the current system for multihit attacks requires the full animation for each hit.
Lombre and Ludicolo are the only Grass-types to learn Fire Punch, and were the only Water-types to learn it until Rapid Strike Urshifu came along. They and Lotad are also the only dual Water/Grass types.
Grass and Water are both very far away from Fire thematically, so why is it that when they come together to form a Pokemon that should be extra not-related-to-fire, it becomes the exclusive user of Fire Punch for both types?
Grass and Water are both very far away from Fire thematically, so why is it that when they come together to form a Pokemon that should be extra not-related-to-fire, it becomes the exclusive user of Fire Punch for both types?
Lombre & Ludicolo are also the only Water-type (aside from Urshifu Rapid Strike) to also learn Thunder Punch and the only Grass-type (aside from the Snover family, but they're part Ice-type) to learn Ice Punch (and Icy Wind, Ice Beam & Blizzard).
Coincidence? I THINK NOT!
- For Fire Punch, it's Grass-type is easily flammable so has no problem setting itself on fire, BUT it's Water-type keeps it's hand from getting burned and the fire spreading to the rest of its body.
- For Thunder Punch, it's Water-type is a easy conductor of electricity so can hold a charge, BUT it's Grass-type cells which resist electricity creates & blocks passageways keeping the electricity from discharging & shocking inside its body.
- For Ice Punch, while Grass-types are normally susceptible to the cold thus wouldn't want frost forming in/on their body, it can use it's Water-type resistance to keep the cold from damaging its cells while allowing enough ice to form within/on itself to perform Ice-type moves whether it's covering its hand in ice, forming ice crystals within its breathe or energy releases, or chilling its entire being to release a blast of cold (Blizzard's low accuracy in this case could be seen as it not getting itself cold enough to adequately release the amount of cold energy needed to do Blizzard).
Last edited:
I'm sure this might have been mooted before, but I've always found Morning Sun to be an oddity for who gets it and who doesn't.
So, this move is typically learned by Bug-, Fire-, and Psychic-types, though the Japanese name of the move is Morning Sunlight so the strongest association is Fire. The few species that get it naturally are:
-Espeon
-Beautifly
-Solrock
-Cherrim
-Necrozma
All five being Pokemon strongly associated with the sun/light. Though all three Necrozma forms learn it, not just the Dusk Mane version.
You'd expect those species that get it to be ones which evolve with a Sun Stone (or Sun Shard in one specific case) but no. Of the five Sun Stone-evolving species, four (Bellossom, Whimsicott, Lilligant, Heliolisk) don't get it even though at least two of those have very strong sun associations. The fifth (Sunkern) only gets it through breeding.
Similarly, Volcarona is one you'd expect to be a natural fit for the move - being both Bug and Fire and having a strong sun connection - but, like Sunkern, it only gets it through breeding. The remaining few species which get it through breeding are Growlithe, Ponyta (both forms), Venonat, Togepi, and Pidove. All fairly unconventional choices there, but there's just enough relevance for them all if you squint. Though really if Ponyta and Growlithe get it I kind of feel like most other Fire-types should too.
Not done yet, though. It's actually surprisingly common as an event move, and the Pokemon which get it are relatively consistent flavour-wise: Butterfree, Weepinbell, Tangela, Scyther, and Moltres.
...oh, and Nidoran-male. Oh, okay, Nidoran-female gets Moonlight as an event move so I suppose it's a counterpart thing. Except both Pokemon evolve by Moon Stone, so you'd think that Moonlight would just be a better fit for both of them. They're not day/night counterparts like Solrock/Lunatone, Espeon/Umbreon, Solgaleo/Lunala, and Beautifly/Dustox are.
So, this move is typically learned by Bug-, Fire-, and Psychic-types, though the Japanese name of the move is Morning Sunlight so the strongest association is Fire. The few species that get it naturally are:
-Espeon
-Beautifly
-Solrock
-Cherrim
-Necrozma
All five being Pokemon strongly associated with the sun/light. Though all three Necrozma forms learn it, not just the Dusk Mane version.
You'd expect those species that get it to be ones which evolve with a Sun Stone (or Sun Shard in one specific case) but no. Of the five Sun Stone-evolving species, four (Bellossom, Whimsicott, Lilligant, Heliolisk) don't get it even though at least two of those have very strong sun associations. The fifth (Sunkern) only gets it through breeding.
Similarly, Volcarona is one you'd expect to be a natural fit for the move - being both Bug and Fire and having a strong sun connection - but, like Sunkern, it only gets it through breeding. The remaining few species which get it through breeding are Growlithe, Ponyta (both forms), Venonat, Togepi, and Pidove. All fairly unconventional choices there, but there's just enough relevance for them all if you squint. Though really if Ponyta and Growlithe get it I kind of feel like most other Fire-types should too.
Not done yet, though. It's actually surprisingly common as an event move, and the Pokemon which get it are relatively consistent flavour-wise: Butterfree, Weepinbell, Tangela, Scyther, and Moltres.
...oh, and Nidoran-male. Oh, okay, Nidoran-female gets Moonlight as an event move so I suppose it's a counterpart thing. Except both Pokemon evolve by Moon Stone, so you'd think that Moonlight would just be a better fit for both of them. They're not day/night counterparts like Solrock/Lunatone, Espeon/Umbreon, Solgaleo/Lunala, and Beautifly/Dustox are.
Last edited:
Crabominable, the mon that got Ice Hammer as a sig move, does not learn Hammer Arm.
Troll Freak at it again.
Troll Freak at it again.
So can we talk about Empoleon for a second? Final form of the Water Sinnoh Starter, Piplup. Pretty neat design, unique Typing with Water/Steel, and I guess alright stats (it's more of a well-rounded Pokemon). Special Attack is its highest at 111 and Attack are a meh 86; you're pretty much going to be using it as a Special Attacker but that's alright as most of the strong Water moves are Special.
Now let's talk about the oddity/issue here. Even today (or, rather, in Gen VII as the Piplup family aren't in SwSh), the only Steel-type move Empoleon learns leveling up is 50 Power Physical Metal Claw. Now, it can learn Flash Cannon via TM (and Steel Wing in the gens it's a TM)... though that's all the other Steel-type moves it can learn other than Iron Defense via Move Tutor. 4 Steel moves.
"Well, what other Steel moves would it get?". Well when it comes to Special not much, only one I can see is Mirror Shot which I doubt it would care for, in a way it gets Flash Cannon and that's all that matters. Status Moves doesn't offer much more either, Metal Sound would probably be useful for it as a Special Attacker (there's also Autotomize but it's Speed is its lowest stat). But it's other Physical moves where there's some strangeness. First off, doesn't it feel like it's missing a common Steel-type move many other Pokemon get, even non Steel-types? Iron Head. Yeah, it doesn't learn it. And I think 60 Speed is good enough for a Gyro Ball user. It has a tail and horn so could also get Metal Tail and Smart Strike. Then there's Metal Burst. So that's 6 Steel-type moves that it's kind of oddly missing even if it wouldn't use more than half of them.
Now let's talk about the oddity/issue here. Even today (or, rather, in Gen VII as the Piplup family aren't in SwSh), the only Steel-type move Empoleon learns leveling up is 50 Power Physical Metal Claw. Now, it can learn Flash Cannon via TM (and Steel Wing in the gens it's a TM)... though that's all the other Steel-type moves it can learn other than Iron Defense via Move Tutor. 4 Steel moves.
"Well, what other Steel moves would it get?". Well when it comes to Special not much, only one I can see is Mirror Shot which I doubt it would care for, in a way it gets Flash Cannon and that's all that matters. Status Moves doesn't offer much more either, Metal Sound would probably be useful for it as a Special Attacker (there's also Autotomize but it's Speed is its lowest stat). But it's other Physical moves where there's some strangeness. First off, doesn't it feel like it's missing a common Steel-type move many other Pokemon get, even non Steel-types? Iron Head. Yeah, it doesn't learn it. And I think 60 Speed is good enough for a Gyro Ball user. It has a tail and horn so could also get Metal Tail and Smart Strike. Then there's Metal Burst. So that's 6 Steel-type moves that it's kind of oddly missing even if it wouldn't use more than half of them.
I’ve got another very strange one that I actually discovered just this morning. While replaying X and Y I caught a Hawlucha and accidentally stepped in the spot for one of the sky battles. Hawlucha couldn’t participate which makes sense it does really “Fly”. It uses the Flying type for a different reason compared to other Pokémon. HOWEVER that would be all cool and fine if Hawlucha couldn’t learn Fly, but Hawlucha does learn Fly by HM which makes for awkward logic.
The reason it's not allowed in sky battles is because its model stands on the ground in its default pose. That's it.
Elgibility for Sky Battles is determined by the Pokemon's 3D model being actually off the ground. Hawlucha is probably the most infamous example of this; Gengar is another one despite having Levitate at the time (which counts for Weezing, Bronzong, etc.)
EDIT: Greninja'd by mere seconds.
I'm trying to find the connection between Psycho Shift and Bird-Like pokemon. By level up, the only pokemon that aren't flying type that learn it by LvL up are the ones with Levitate. Even then, Latias, Latios, and Cresselia look kinda like Bird-Dragon-Jets and a Moon-Duck. By breeding the only non-flying is togepi, which evolves into a flying type. In old gens, Murkrow Line got it too. Deoxys disrupts the pattern, but whatever. It's Japanese name translates to Psycho Shift, so no Splash = Hop revelation... I need help
Abra, Spinda, and female Indeedee also get it through breeding, though it's worth noting that Abra and Spinda were only able to do so starting in gen 6, despite the move existing since gen 4.
The move's description notes that it is performed through the "psychic power of suggestion" though how that is relevant is beyond me.
This is a real mystery.
Well the birds that do get it I mostly understand why they get it it but I never noticed why its primarily birds....
e: Also I'm adding this to the list of moves that feel like they probably should've been snapped. It's a niche effect on a small pool of pokemon.
Also Abra lost the ability to use it for some reason
e: Also I'm adding this to the list of moves that feel like they probably should've been snapped. It's a niche effect on a small pool of pokemon.
Also Abra lost the ability to use it for some reason
It might be some obscure Japanese pun that isn't obvious upon direct translation, sort of like Huge Power and its connection to rabbits.
Can anyone here who knows Japanese weigh in?
Can anyone here who knows Japanese weigh in?
I'm not convinced that there's an inherent association with bird Pokemon - just that those Pokemon that get the move happen to be bird-like. "Suggestion" is an odd word in this context but throws up associations with illusion and telepathy. Most of the Pokemon that get Psycho Shift tend to be ones which use their psychic (or Dark, Fairy, etc) powers for these purposes rather than manipulating the elements, and learn similar moves that mess with the opponent's stability or perceptions.
Hoothoot and Noctowl have always learned tricky Psychic moves of that sort - they're honorary Psychic-types (there was a discussion about Pokemon of this nature a while back possibly on a different thread). Latias and Latios both have an affinity with perception and illusory, suggestion-related moves, as do Cresselia and G-Articuno. The same goes for Abra, Sigilyph, Indeedee, Woobat, Murkrow, and Spinda - albeit with some of those you have to really squint, but it's just enough of a connection in most cases. Murkrow in particular is often found in dark, shadowy caves and forests and though none of its Pokedex entries link it with illusory abilities, it's not hard to imagine it using these sorts of powers, particularly as it gets a lot of moves like Haze, Night Shade, Mean Look, and Confuse Ray.
Natu and Xatu are associated with premonition and otherworldly second sight, so it's not a total stretch to link that with "the psychic power of suggestion". Other Psychic mons, such as Hypno and Mr. Mime, don't have that association as they have other kinds of psi power. Quite why all four Deoxys forms get it is puzzling as it seems a move more suited to the Defence form alone, but all four formes learn moves like Recover and Night Shade so it's not a total stretch.
Togepi's the really odd one imo, though much like Hoothoot it does learn a lot of tricky Psychic moves like Extrasensory and Telekinesis. I guess "suggestion" in this case is similar to the intuitive power utilised through Metronome - which Togepi is heavily associated with - and through the suggestive power of moves like Tail Whip and Charm.
Though I'm surprised that the Ralts line doesn't get the move, nor Audino - they're strongly linked to empathic powers of that nature.
Despite both Kecleon and Camouflage both being released in Gen 3, Kecleon couldn't learn Camouflage until XY, and even then only as an egg move. It can learn it by leveling up starting in ORAS, though.
I would also complain about Galarian Stunfisk not getting it, but a) Camouflage can't be used in SwSh and b) Unovan Stunfisk gets it, so Galarian almost certainly would if it could.
Edit: Speaking of Galarian Stunfisk, why is Snap Trap (its signature move) a Grass type move? Its animation looks like a metal trap, even.
I would also complain about Galarian Stunfisk not getting it, but a) Camouflage can't be used in SwSh and b) Unovan Stunfisk gets it, so Galarian almost certainly would if it could.
Edit: Speaking of Galarian Stunfisk, why is Snap Trap (its signature move) a Grass type move? Its animation looks like a metal trap, even.
i remember a lockstin video saying that its grass type for carnivine.
if its true, i dont know if it means it was 1. meant to be a new signature move for it (a la fire slash on heatmor) before dexit happened, and gstunfisk got it instead
or
2. created for gstunfisk but made grass type, because signature moves often aren't signature after one or two games, and they wanted the stab on carnivine more/coverage on gstunfisk or something similar
btw this is the same case with jaw lock. signature of dreadnaw, made dark type
Everything about Snap Trap honestly feels desgined for Stunfisk-G specifically except the typing.
The animation is literally an iron trap! The name references it specifically (the japanese name is even foothold trap). I feel if they were trying to future proof it, they'd either keep it more vaguely trap ish (I'm thinking akin to the Genius Sonority bite animations) or even go for a more venus fly trap visual. Maybe even change the name to something like "Hidden Trap"
The animation is literally an iron trap! The name references it specifically (the japanese name is even foothold trap). I feel if they were trying to future proof it, they'd either keep it more vaguely trap ish (I'm thinking akin to the Genius Sonority bite animations) or even go for a more venus fly trap visual. Maybe even change the name to something like "Hidden Trap"
Honestly, these two options are the only ones I could think of to explain the grass type. Maybe theyre just playing around non-stab stuff for signatures and decided to just change the type for thatEverything about Snap Trap honestly feels desgined for Stunfisk-G specifically except the typing.
The animation is literally an iron trap! The name references it specifically (the japanese name is even foothold trap). I feel if they were trying to future proof it, they'd either keep it more vaguely trap ish (I'm thinking akin to the Genius Sonority bite animations) or even go for a more venus fly trap visual. Maybe even change the name to something like "Hidden Trap"
It's Grass-type because the other move designed to snatch people's ankles, Grass Knot, is Grass-type. 