-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Lati@s in OU??
- Thread starter RaikouLover
- Start date
- Status
The sole reason why I think Specsmence won't be put out of business. Neither Latis learn a Fire move outside of HP, and whatever type they run leaves something open.
I think GF did not give them Flamethrower/blast because it would give them too good of type coverage. I mean every other dragon, barring Kingdra, gets it. Even Altaria.
My main reason against them is that OU already has enough "uncounterable" Pokemon. Things like Porygon Z, Garchomp (any form besides Scarf), and Tyranitar can walk all over their counters just by changing a single move. This means you are reluctant to switch in the counters, allowing them to rip through your team until you find out the set. Nothing besides Steelix likes taking CB (or LO) Crunches + Stone Edges, and it has Earthquake for that and Ice Beam for those Hippos who don't lose Defense. Porygon Z can kill all Ghosts that ever exist with NP + Dark Pulse, 2HKO Blissey, and still carry a filler move for what's left, which isn't much, because Adaptability basically removes the resistance to Normal on Steels and Rocks. CB Outrage from Garchomp is insane, it can deal ~35% to Bronzong.
While all this may sound like the exact damage the Lati@s can cause, could you take a combination of Lati@s and TTar? Only shared weak is Bug, otherwise they can easily switch back and forth. With neither having a surefire counter and each being able to kill the others counter, how would most teams respond? Sending in Weavile or Aerodactyl after a sacrifice sounds like the only surefire way to keep either one from switching right back in.
Basically, OU is already at the bursting point. Adding any more Borderline Uncounterable Pokemon will shift the metagame to close to the one called ubers. There is more than a difference in available pokemon between OU and Ubers, there is a style difference. Adding in the Lati@s would remove the style difference and make it Uber-lite, similar to adding NFEs into UU.
While all this may sound like the exact damage the Lati@s can cause, could you take a combination of Lati@s and TTar? Only shared weak is Bug, otherwise they can easily switch back and forth. With neither having a surefire counter and each being able to kill the others counter, how would most teams respond? Sending in Weavile or Aerodactyl after a sacrifice sounds like the only surefire way to keep either one from switching right back in.
Basically, OU is already at the bursting point. Adding any more Borderline Uncounterable Pokemon will shift the metagame to close to the one called ubers. There is more than a difference in available pokemon between OU and Ubers, there is a style difference. Adding in the Lati@s would remove the style difference and make it Uber-lite, similar to adding NFEs into UU.
TTar used Jolly Nature expecting this and used Earthquake. Yawn, I expected the Metagross counter, but figured it wouldn't be worth playing PBPWM. You also deny the existance of HP Fire Lati@s with that statement. Like I said, you would have to figure out which moves they are running, which isn't likely unless they use HP Fight on Blissey. Otherwise, I would like to keep my Metagross alive.
Agreed, we haven't even fully fleshed out all of the strategies currently allowed in DP. Its not stale yet. Save these two for then.
Saving Lati@s for when the metagame is "stale" has got to be the most counter-productive thing I have heard in a while. We are determining if they are viable for OU play...this has nothing to do with the metagame being stale or not.
As for the topic being dumb, the only dumb thing about it is how everyone is repeating themselves and how we're moving in a circle. I can't believe I am about to say this, but MoP was 100% correct. All arguments for and against Lati@s in OU can be stated for a lot of Pokemon.
I still wonder, however, how many of you against Lati@s in OU have even played against it. MrE, Hyra, Blaziken57 just to name a few are spouting this "theorymon" stuff against it, but what practical experiences with Lati@s in OU play do you all have?
For a specific example, if you check the early part of this topic, I was in the same boat as you guys. I was completely against the thought of Lati@s in OU; however, upon battling various versions against various battlers of various skill levels, my subjective opinion is they aren't gamebreaking by any means.
And in a few hours, I'll post a few logs of Lati@s battles just so we can all see exactly what is going on here. (I'm on a different computer, unfortunately at the moment)
As for the topic being dumb, the only dumb thing about it is how everyone is repeating themselves and how we're moving in a circle. I can't believe I am about to say this, but MoP was 100% correct. All arguments for and against Lati@s in OU can be stated for a lot of Pokemon.
I still wonder, however, how many of you against Lati@s in OU have even played against it. MrE, Hyra, Blaziken57 just to name a few are spouting this "theorymon" stuff against it, but what practical experiences with Lati@s in OU play do you all have?
For a specific example, if you check the early part of this topic, I was in the same boat as you guys. I was completely against the thought of Lati@s in OU; however, upon battling various versions against various battlers of various skill levels, my subjective opinion is they aren't gamebreaking by any means.
And in a few hours, I'll post a few logs of Lati@s battles just so we can all see exactly what is going on here. (I'm on a different computer, unfortunately at the moment)
So to break this circular topic...when are we officially going to test this (if we are)? Would one month really be enough? Is it going to be confined to a tournament setting or is Shoddy going to allow Lati@s in non-uber battles for everyone during the testing period?
what about alowing it in only non-ladder matches?
I've already said, I HAVE experienced Lati@s in OU, back when the site I came from didn't yet recognize that they were uber. I had a hell of a time finding a good switch-in (not packing a Blissey at the time). I figured Tyranitar was a safe switch-in, but Draco Meteor followed by Life Orb Earthquake wrecked it. All steels save Heatran, Heat-proof Bronzong, and Empoleon are eaten alive by HP Fire, and just about everything else that isn't Blissey is wrecked by Draco Meteor.
BTW here's a set that was commonly used:
Latios @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
I'm not positive about the EVs, like 220 SpAtt, 100 Att, rest in speed
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- HP Fire
- Earthquake
- Recover
The first three moves hit everything for at least neutral damage. Recover is to recover Life Orb damage, but that is rather filler-ish and can easily be replaced by something like Thunderbolt or Shadow Ball for coverage.
Yeah, and even after it was officially recognized that they were uber, still some people pissed and moaned about them being "favorites", so I saw them most of my time there.
So don't jump to conclusions. If I had never seen them used in OU before I would have been more neutral.
Also, a tournament is VERY unreliable for testing. I'd say the most reliable way to test them is to just stick them in the OU tier for a month, allowing them in all OU matches just to see how well they fare to the current metagame. That way their wouldn't be some mad rush to build a team around them (not that everybody would do that, but still). With just a tournament for testing, you'll have Pursuit Metagross and Careful Tyranitar on a lot of teams, or some random shit like that.
BTW here's a set that was commonly used:
Latios @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
I'm not positive about the EVs, like 220 SpAtt, 100 Att, rest in speed
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- HP Fire
- Earthquake
- Recover
The first three moves hit everything for at least neutral damage. Recover is to recover Life Orb damage, but that is rather filler-ish and can easily be replaced by something like Thunderbolt or Shadow Ball for coverage.
Yeah, and even after it was officially recognized that they were uber, still some people pissed and moaned about them being "favorites", so I saw them most of my time there.
So don't jump to conclusions. If I had never seen them used in OU before I would have been more neutral.
Also, a tournament is VERY unreliable for testing. I'd say the most reliable way to test them is to just stick them in the OU tier for a month, allowing them in all OU matches just to see how well they fare to the current metagame. That way their wouldn't be some mad rush to build a team around them (not that everybody would do that, but still). With just a tournament for testing, you'll have Pursuit Metagross and Careful Tyranitar on a lot of teams, or some random shit like that.
That thing gets countered by a decent amount of stuff.
1) TTar. Even with Orb, EQ does pathetic damage due to the Timid nature
2) Blissey. Okay you have to admit EQ does lol to Bliss..and so does the rest of the moves. Then, it paralyzes you and beats your Recover PP with Seismic Toss...or something. Or it switches into a Tar and you die even faster
3) Milotic. Same deal as Blissey, mostly.
4) Suicune. If it can avoid switching in on Draco Meteor, it can Calm Mind and beat this thing. After the SA drop and the CM boost, Suicune should survive and Rest. And let's not forget pressure
5) Cresselia. Same deal as Bliss/Milotic
6) Snorlax...blahblah
When you know a set has that many counters for a sweeper pokemon with high status, it isn't very good...
Now the metagame is different, and people got smarter, don't they?
Actually, all I know for sure is Draco Meteor / HP Fire / Earthquake / Filler @ Life Orb. I suggested Timid since Latios doesn't want to lower its defenses, but at the same time I suppose the Att is necessary... Also, "Filler" could be just about anything, I suggested Recover to negate Life Orb damage, but it could easily become Thunderbolt/Grass Knot if it makes you happy.
Also, you listed four counters (Tyranitar doesn't count), two of which are BL, meaning Blissey and Cresselia seems to be the only common counter. And Cresselia has no reliable recovery move, meaning its switch-ins to Draco Meteor are limited, not to mention its Ice Beams (coming off of 75 Base Attack to 110/130 Base Special Defense) don't hurt Lati@s significantly, unlike their Mixed counter-part, Salamence.
Also, I'd just like to point out that I don't have a problem with testing, but I'm just saying that it probably will end up being pretty moot.
Also, I say 'also' too much. The words have lost all meaning.
Also, you listed four counters (Tyranitar doesn't count), two of which are BL, meaning Blissey and Cresselia seems to be the only common counter. And Cresselia has no reliable recovery move, meaning its switch-ins to Draco Meteor are limited, not to mention its Ice Beams (coming off of 75 Base Attack to 110/130 Base Special Defense) don't hurt Lati@s significantly, unlike their Mixed counter-part, Salamence.
Also, I'd just like to point out that I don't have a problem with testing, but I'm just saying that it probably will end up being pretty moot.
Also, I say 'also' too much. The words have lost all meaning.
Now, to set this thing off, the twins, will really have true counter, just maybe revenge killers. The worst part
Tyranitar
Scizor
Heracross
etc
The twins can outspeed all of them, and CS Heracross is basically used by noobs ( no offense )
This set has the ability to beat Blissey, and any other pokemon no problem
Latias @ leftovers
- Calm Mind
-Recover
-Draco Meteor
- Refresh
Blissey, Cresselia, Heatran really can't do a damn thing about it, all Blissey and Cresselia can do, is Calm Mind with the thing, but either way Ice Beam i doubt is even scratching this thing. The stats are VERY good, it lacks intimidate like Salamence. Has a Pursuit weakness, but hell lets face it, Pursuit didn't stop Starmie for being the best Infernape counter, just know to battle and predict, to try and avoid it's revenge killers, mainly Weavile.
Tyranitar
Scizor
Heracross
etc
The twins can outspeed all of them, and CS Heracross is basically used by noobs ( no offense )
This set has the ability to beat Blissey, and any other pokemon no problem
Latias @ leftovers
- Calm Mind
-Recover
-Draco Meteor
- Refresh
Blissey, Cresselia, Heatran really can't do a damn thing about it, all Blissey and Cresselia can do, is Calm Mind with the thing, but either way Ice Beam i doubt is even scratching this thing. The stats are VERY good, it lacks intimidate like Salamence. Has a Pursuit weakness, but hell lets face it, Pursuit didn't stop Starmie for being the best Infernape counter, just know to battle and predict, to try and avoid it's revenge killers, mainly Weavile.
You Calm Mind just to lower your Special Attack two stages every time you attack? Not just that but you are sacrificing a few moveslots where better moves can be used to have more type coverage over other Pokémon. This set is novelty pushed to the extreme which means it will only work under very few circumstances.
How did you conclude that CSHera was mainly used by noobs?
That set looks good "on paper" but have you tested that set out personally yourself?
Of course your little tidbit about prediction could hold water if....you can predict perfectly 100% of the time. Can you do that? That set is walled by steels and your basically wasting your CM's with Draco Meteor. Dragon Pulse would be a much better option but it still has trouble getting past steel pokemon.
Also it seems like your hinting at "well if Latios counters are gone then it sweeps". Tell me one sweeper type pokemon that can be stopped if it's counters are gone.
I've been testing both Latias and Latios on shoddy and I've noticed first hand that Latios cannot take physical attacks at all; it's durability to those attacks are horrible. Of course I could run reflect on it and make it more defensive but Latias is better suited to that and that's exactly what I use her for.
Latios seems to be a great special sweeper overall but it's shoddy physical durability combined with it's weakness to Dark attacks (most notably Pursuit) is really unattractive.
I'm looking forward to seeing more Latias/Latios testing results in the near future.
there really isn't a good reason to keep this thread open, as much as i love reading (GOOD) theorymon. we may learn more from the ongoing tournament but probably not, so this issue needs to be returned to if and when it can be orchestrated formally. again, the administration is talking about this in our Inside Scoop forum, so something will come of it eventually
- Status