Resource SS NU Viability Ranking Thread

[Rabia]

update:

rises

A -> A+: Flygon has firmly established itself as at worst the second best utility Pokemon in NU. Between its Choice Scarf and defensive sets, Flygon offers a slew of great benefits to teams, including U-turn, Defog, a Volt Switch blocker, and an Earthquake immunity. Additionally, with Gastrodon recently rising to RU, more and more people are relying on Flygon to be that Electric-immune and Rock-resistant option on their teams.
A -> A+: The other contender for best utility option in the tier, Talonflame continues to see insane success. Its a great Copperajah check and very effective at spreading status, helping it disrupt opposing teams. It generally offers teams a lot of options for utility, with Defog, Taunt, U-turn, etc. all being great options depending on your team. Furthermore, its great speed enables it to be a revenge killer for certain frail threats such as Salazzle.
A- -> A: Blastoise is the single most threatening setup sweeper in NU. Very little can offensively answer it after a Shell Smash, and not many Pokemon that can take a +2 attack from it can actually threaten anything in return. It requires very minimal support to perform at a high level and is a threat you must always be cognizant of while teambuilding because of how little it needs to run roughshod over teams.
A- -> A: Sirfetch'd greatly benefits from NU's lack of great Fighting-type checks. Because of how strong its Choice Band Close Combat is, even options like Sylveon and Mudsdale can find themselves quickly overwhelmed by it, with the former being 2HKOed with slight chip damage. Previously solid checks to Fighting-types like Vileplume and Mantine simply aren't consistent anymore because of Sirfetch'd's power and coverage.
B+ -> A-: The glizzy guzzler continues to be a strong presence in the metagame as one of the few durable Ghost-resistant options we have. Toxic-stalling sets are great at slowly breaking down common switch-ins like Mudsdale and non-Heal Bell Vaporeon, while Choice Band ones are excellent at making use of pivots that draw in the prevalent Steel-types---Copperajah and Bronzong---of the tier.
B+ -> A-: Similar to Sirfetch'd, Machamp is very difficult to reliably switch into because of how strong it is after Guts is activated. It's very easy to pair it with several pivots and make up for its poor defensive utility, giving it plenty of opportunities to switch in and wallbreak.
B+ -> A-: Mudsdale has gotten a bit better recently with the rise of Gastrodon, allowing it more places on teams as a Rock-resistant Pokemon that can also handle common wallbreakers like Sirfetch'd, Guzzlord, and Silvally-Ghost.
B+ -> A: Vaporeon is one of the rising stars of NU currently for good reason. It's one of the few consistent answers to offensive Water-types like Starmie and Blastoise, with the latter also being bothered by Roar variants that disrupt its attempts to set up and sweep. Vaporeon synergizes excellently with other common Pokemon like Mudsdale, Guzzlord, and Copperajah that desire its Wish + Heal Bell support, and wallbreakers can really benefit from Flip Turn support.
B -> B+: Heliolisk has mostly seen an increase in usage lately due to its Choice Scarf set, which lets it outpace +2 Blastoise and threaten heavy damage with Thunderbolt. Unfortunately, its niche is rather limited outside of this.
B -> B+: Xatu is pretty much the go-to dual screens setter for hyper offense teams and enjoys Mudsdale's increase in usage, being able to easily block its attempts to set Stealth Rock.
B- -> B: Aerodactyl enjoys there being one less Pokemon to wall its Stone Edges and is the naturally fastest viable option in the tier, giving it great leeway against teams that rely on Pokemon like Talonflame and Salazzle as their revenge killers.
B- -> B: i could not tell you why this is getting a rise
B- -> B: Tauros is a fairly consistent wallbreaker thanks to its coverage and speed, and the ban of Cresselia, while distant, has benefitted it a bit by opening up its fourth moveslot more, as Work Up is no longer as mandatory. This lets it run a coverage move like Iron Head to better deal with Diancie.
B- -> B+: Toxicroak greatly appreciates the surge in Vaporeon usage, as it's quite literally the freest switch opportunity of all time. Additionally, it's a fairly okay soft check to Blastoise, being able to stomach even +2 Ice Beam and retaliate with an attack of its own.
B- -> B: Weezing is a good defensive answer to wallbreakers like Machamp and Guzzlord, with the former especially struggling against Neutralizing Gas variants. Additionally, although grounded-Poison-types are common, Toxic Spikes can be situationally excellent to have.
C+ -> B-: Focus Energy + Agility Kingdra absolutely loves the current metagame trends, particularly the rise of Vaporeon. Although it can be hard to find a chance to use both moves, very little can stop this set from taking over games late.
C -> C+: Golisopod and Roserade leaving means Garbodor is the only viable Spiker available now; it's also an okay answer to Sirfetch'd and Machamp, being able to force great chip damage on them with Rocky Helmet + Aftermath.

drops

A+-> A: Sylveon remains an excellent pick, but with Vaporeon rising, its place on teams looking for Wish or cleric support is a bit less secure. It's also no longer as effective of a Fighting-type check due to past metagame changes.
A+ -> A-: Vileplume is really struggling nowadays because it offers much less defensively than it used to and is much easier to take advantage of with Pokemon like Salazzle and Dragalge.
A- -> B+: Decidueye's place on teams has become much less secure with the bans of Cresselia and Snow Warning; it was a great answer to the former and a mainstay on auto-hail teams. Additionally, Guzzlord's rise is troublesome for it.
A- -> B+: Similar to Decidueye, much of Escavalier's viability stemmed from the presence of Cresselia and Snow Warning, as it was excellent defensive counterplay to such threats.
A- -> B+: Vaporeon is becoming the go-to defensive Water-type for teams, and there exist many other Defoggers that offer a more active role than Mantine, which has made it harder to justify nowadays.
B+ -> B-: Zoroark has failed to establish a solid niche for itself. Wallbreaker sets haven't proven to be very consistent, and although Choice Scarf ones have seen some recent success, they haven't helped Zoroark become an NU mainstay.
B -> B-: Comfey can very frequently become near-deadweight because of how common Pokemon such as Copperajah, Salazzle, and Talonflame are. Although it offers a lot of team support through Defog, U-turn, and Natural Cure, it's generally better to seek these roles through more viable options.
B -> B-: Ninjask is much less effective in current NU than it was in the Snake Draft metagame. Pokemon like Copperajah, Diancie, and Flame Body Talonflame make its life hard, and there exist many more options for speed control nowadays, meaning Ninjask doesn't have as much of a stranglehold on the Speed tiers as it used to.
B- -> C+: Terrain teams are very niche, so Alolan Raichu falls into the territory of very niche options.
B- -> C: The ban of Snow Warning has heavily neutered Arctovish's viability. Although manual hail teams have popped up a bit, they're not anywhere near as viable as what we saw last month.
B- -> C: Centiskorch was previously ranked for being a good defensive team breaker that also could take down Cresselia. With Cresselia's ban, Centiskorch has much less of a reason to be used.
B- -> C: Xatu has essentially usurped Espeon of much of its previous purpose, and offensive sets will always struggle with Copperajah's omnipresence. While it's not unviable by any means, Espeon is very hard to justify using over other options that typically do what it wants to better.
B- -> C+: Psychic Terrain isn't anywhere near a mainstay, and as a wallbreaker, Indeedee-F hasn't impressed.
C+ -> C: Seldom sees use, Blastoise is the better Shell Smash user, and Vaporeon's surge basically removes any reason to use it. I would not be shocked to see it unranked next update.
C+ -> C: Electric Terrain is not very great, although it certainly remains a usable, albeit niche, hyper offense option.
(fairy) C+ -> C: Silvally-Fairy is mostly just inferior to Silvally-Ghost, which is much more difficult for teams to reliably deal with due to its superior Multi-Attack.
C+ -> C: Sneasel struggles to provide players with a reason to use it. Its fragility makes it incredibly easy to revenge kill, and it's not particularly strong relative to previous metagames in which it was a dominant force.
C+ -> C: Vikavolt just doesn't see meaningful use.

new

-> C+: Arctozolt has a really obnoxious dual STAB combination but suffers from being rather limited outside of hail because of its poor Speed tier.
-> C: Expulso's post explains well why you'd use it. For now, the VR council is being cautious with our ranking of Scyther because it's pretty uncommon, but if it sees more success in the near future, then it could see a greater rise.

unranked

:( Rotom-C supremacy and lack of usage to justify ranking it any longer.
This has not been used in a serious capacity since mid-2020.
Snow Warning ban makes these unusable.
Other Pokemon do literally anything it can do but better.
-

 

[Rabia]

some discussion points because why not

literally anything -> S
Right now, Copperajah is the sole S-rank Pokemon in the tier. While many of us in the VR council believe this is accurate, there are certainly a couple Pokemon you could make a case for: Salazzle and Talonflame both come to mind as two potential candidates. Is there any other Pokemon you think rivals Copperajah in terms of defining the metagame? Or do we continue to embrace our elephant overlord?

-> A+
Blastoise is quite a polarizing Pokemon, with some believing it to be too much for the tier---or, at the least, an unhealthy presence. Should its rise on the rankings continue?

-> B+ or lower
Vileplume really struggles nowadays. Its usage is a lot lower than where it was in the last 3-month usage period, and it just doesn't have a lot going for it anymore in terms of what it offers within the metagame. Does A- attribute too much worth to Vileplume? Or do its positives still carry enough weight in April of 2020?

 

[Stories]

some discussion points because why not

literally anything -> S
Right now, Copperajah is the sole S-rank Pokemon in the tier. While many of us in the VR council believe this is accurate, there are certainly a couple Pokemon you could make a case for: Salazzle and Talonflame both come to mind as two potential candidates. Is there any other Pokemon you think rivals Copperajah in terms of defining the metagame? Or do we continue to embrace our elephant overlord?

-> A+
Blastoise is quite a polarizing Pokemon, with some believing it to be too much for the tier---or, at the least, an unhealthy presence. Should its rise on the rankings continue?

-> B+ or lower
Vileplume really struggles nowadays. Its usage is a lot lower than where it was in the last 3-month usage period, and it just doesn't have a lot going for it anymore in terms of what it offers within the metagame. Does A- attribute too much worth to Vileplume? Or do its positives still carry enough weight in April of 2020?

S rank mons

1st Point: I think Copper cements itself above its fellow top-tier comrades, simply because it is much easier to use than something like Salazzle or Talonflame, which must be navigated through their frailty, although I could definitely see Lazzle in S in the future that thing is busted when used right, and as people expand their uses of Talonflame, mixing in offensive sets with Steel Wing or abusing U-Turn momentum for stuff like Fetch'd or TTrum could make it possible S, but less likely than the other 2 imo.

idiot shell smash mon

2nd Point: Okay so besides SDef Roar Vaporeon, lets go over some defensive Blastoise calcs:
Celebi was flinched!
Sylveon was frozen solid!
+2 132 Atk Blastoise Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Copperajah: 386-456 (100.2 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and then some offensive Blastoise answers

252 SpA Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 252-296 (84.2 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
ah wait that doesn't ohko hang on
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 242-288 (80.9 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
gimme a sec I'll find something I swear
252 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 198-234 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sirfetch’d First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blastoise: 165-195 (55.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

etc

Blastoise is much different than other screens cheese-shitting mons; this thing is a literal tank, with a fantastic speed tier, movepool, and offensive stats too. the relative ease this thing has makes it, not ban-worthy (yet), but problematic atm, imo, especially when it feels like it has Super Luck and Serene Grace all the time too.

Plume

3rd Point: Vileplume will always be a solid blanket-physical check to stuff, I think B tier suffices for it. the meta isn't too kind to it atm but we're starved for grass types and plume has a unique niche. it also has started running moves like leech seed to further punish switches and increase longevity while forcing switches and threatening poisons or item removal. decent mon

 

[Pokeslice]

literally anything -> S
Right now, Copperajah is the sole S-rank Pokemon in the tier. While many of us in the VR council believe this is accurate, there are certainly a couple Pokemon you could make a case for: Salazzle and Talonflame both come to mind as two potential candidates. Is there any other Pokemon you think rivals Copperajah in terms of defining the metagame? Or do we continue to embrace our elephant overlord?

This is the only Pokemon at the moment I see as joining Copper in S tier. It's become a tier staple for good reason as our best cleric, status spreader, Roar/Hazer for Glastrier and Stoise, or even defensive backbone that can keep momentum on more offensive squads. It also helps hold back a lot of the broken in the tier while seeming almost mandatory at times. There's a reason that the meta has semi shifted around shutting down Vaporeon with trends like Croak or Jelli seeing higher usage or the use of Dragalge to mess it up consistently. Definitely an S tier mon to me, but at least A+. A feels wayy too low for it, especially when you have it in the same tier as Sylveon, which it currently outclasses as a cleric imo, or Zong, who isn't as splashable nor as good, although definitely an A tier mon.

-> B+ or lower
Vileplume really struggles nowadays. Its usage is a lot lower than where it was in the last 3-month usage period, and it just doesn't have a lot going for it anymore in terms of what it offers within the metagame. Does A- attribute too much worth to Vileplume? Or do its positives still carry enough weight in April of 2020?

Funnily enough, my opinion has definitely changed a bit on Plume over the past two weeks or so. At first, I really hated it because our Fighting-types could easily beat it down and mons like Lazzle and Talon were rampant, but after facing it a bunch of the time when I don't have Fetch'd in the back, I found it genuinely hard to break, especially since it could still Sap off everything or cripple something with C Gas. Plume's typing also really helps in our meta, since it's a reliable switch in to Vaporeon at least. It's no means an A+ demon anymore and I don't know if it belongs in A- either, but it definitely still has merit and like Togkey said, put it in B.

 

[Katy]

some discussion points because why not

literally anything -> S
Right now, Copperajah is the sole S-rank Pokemon in the tier. While many of us in the VR council believe this is accurate, there are certainly a couple Pokemon you could make a case for: Salazzle and Talonflame both come to mind as two potential candidates. Is there any other Pokemon you think rivals Copperajah in terms of defining the metagame? Or do we continue to embrace our elephant overlord?

-> A+
Blastoise is quite a polarizing Pokemon, with some believing it to be too much for the tier---or, at the least, an unhealthy presence. Should its rise on the rankings continue?

-> B+ or lower
Vileplume really struggles nowadays. Its usage is a lot lower than where it was in the last 3-month usage period, and it just doesn't have a lot going for it anymore in terms of what it offers within the metagame. Does A- attribute too much worth to Vileplume? Or do its positives still carry enough weight in April of 2020?

definietely is a metagame defining Pokemon, with forcing players to run Vaporeon and Mantine. On Hyper Offensive teams this Pokemon should definietely never been underestimated, because once the opposing team is weakened, it can just lategame clean after only 1 Shell Smash-boost. Blastoise also can also help against its answers with a flinch due to Dark Pulse, which makes them less reliable. I know this is a weird point, but considering on how effective Blastosie is, especially with its great typing in water and its reasonable bulk which gets improved due to dual screens, it is imho one of the best Pokemon in the tier and one of the best lategame cleaner out there in overall. I feel a rise to A+ is justified.

s best time as THE answer to nearly all physical threats is over, Sirfetchd has coverage and other Pokemon like Machamp do a shitton to it with a Facade. The metagame is against Vileplume atm and its time as the bright star and THE defensive pivot is over. I think B+ or B is currently a better ranking for what it can do.

 

[Expulso]

B -> B+: Heliolisk has mostly seen an increase in usage lately due to its Choice Scarf set, which lets it outpace +2 Blastoise and threaten heavy damage with Thunderbolt. Unfortunately, its niche is rather limited outside of this.

perhaps i use heliolisk differently from others, but I have found it to be good without ever considering scarf on it. scarf helio sounds really bad to me ngl and not worthy of b+ on its own.

i use the following pivot set:

Heliolisk @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hyper Voice
- Volt Switch
- Grass Knot

Hyper Voice is able to hit Flygon hard, easily 2HKOing 0/0 Flyg and being a roll to 2HKO 252/0 Flyg after SR (plus, you also outspeed non-Scarf Flygon). Sylveon falling off really helps it; you can come in freely vs Vaporeon and TBolt -> Volt on the switch to a special sponge such as Copper / Bronzong (or, versus Dragalge, HVoice -> Volt).

It's worth noting that you need to double into it on the Vapo switch (or catch it on a move that isn't Wish; otherwise, they can heal up their special sponge against you.) However, when used well Helio is great at chipping entire teams by overwhelming special sponges.

====


I also think Toxicroak could rise to A-, SD can 6-0 entire teams if played well and NP can break through pretty much every defensive core in the tier unless your opponent either a) dodges Focus or b) pivots perfectly every time. The rise of Vaporeon also means Toxicroak will get plenty of opportunities; even versus non-Vaporeon teams, Toxicroak can put in work upon entering battle with its good Speed tier & STABs, though it does require a pivot or good prediction versus some of those teams.

====


I disagree with blastoise to a+, a is totally sufficient in my eyes. it is the biggest HO threat to prep for, but doesn't OHKO enough neutral threats to warrant a+, because you often need to chip a lot to clear the path for it (which is harder to do now with Boots + Vaporeon healing teammates back to full health). thus I focus on threats like Copper, TFlame, Flygon, and Salazzle a lot more in the builder, and I feel that doing so is warranted.

====

I will make a longer post at some point in the future once I have time to test some more. generally agree with most of the changes in top ranks, indifferent abt the lower ranks' movements

 

[Elias PSY]

literally anything

-> S
Right now, Copperajah is the sole S-rank Pokemon in the tier. While many of us in the VR council believe this is accurate, there are certainly a couple Pokemon you could make a case for: Salazzle and Talonflame both come to mind as two potential candidates. Is there any other Pokemon you think rivals Copperajah in terms of defining the metagame? Or do we continue to embrace our elephant overlord?

Established as the best cleric of the tier,water immunity which is nice and also slow pivot if needed to prevent being too much passive,vaporeon quickly became a staple on most (every?) balanced teams.Was the only reliable hail and now stay on the top with the dangerous threats glastrier and ss blastoise being around.Can adapt his spread to check what it want to check (like the 40+ spdef to reliably check sub blastoise),and some options to destroy his checks (ice beam,substitute+toxic,stored power+work up).
Like said above,he is also one (if not the main reason) of toxicroak,jellicent and heliolisk being popular atm and thus he is clearly meta-defining.

Also there is flygon.Defog and choice scarf are probably the most splashable sets giving electric immunity who doesn't quickly drop to mowtom's leaf storm,keeping momentum while checking dangerous wallbreakers such as tyrantrum or toxicroak and annoy volturn spam with rocky helmet on defog sets.This make flygon easy to fit on every type of teams especially (fast)defensive defog sets who rised in usages.Last but not least more offensive sets such as dragon dance and choice band can easily make progress with a wide coverage variety and doesn't get real counters.Flygon also benefit from recent entei ban who gived it an hard time to do his job when burned.

 

[Rabia]

-> A-
Dhelmise is much better than B+ suggests. Defensively, it offers teams with a Pokemon that consistently switches into foes like Flygon, non-Will-O-Wisp Rotom-C, and non-Ice Beam Starmie, and it also beats Shell Smash Blastoise (assuming you don't get lucked). Although Spikes' viability is quite low at the moment because of the lack of good setters, Dhelmise being the sole viable spinner remains quite valuable for such teams, and it also has a solid place on double removal teams that aim to support teammates like Focus Sash Salazzle. Dhelmise is also quite solid offensively, even without investment; Power Whip + Poltergeist is quite a potent combination, and being able to OHKO Blastoise through Reflect is excellent. I've heard that many people just simply don't use Dhelmise; try it out some! It's really good.

-> A-
Fuck it, I'll make the post. I don't think Tyrantrum is as good as its current rank suggests and instead believe it's wholly a matter of how threatening it is in the teambuilder carrying its perceived viability. Tyrantrum is without a doubt one of the most daunting foes to try to switch into; STAB Head Smash can claim a KO against any team that lacks a good Rock-resistant Pokemon, and its Speed is by no means bad. Yet, I have consistently been underwhelmed by Tyrantrum's performance in my games. Part of this is because every good team has a Ground-type; Mudsdale and defensive Flygon can really easily prevent Tyrantrum from spamming Head Smash, and while it can obviously fall back on its other STAB attack to catch them for good damage, doing so makes switching into it a lot easier. As a result, Tyrantrum feels like a prediction-reliant wallbreaker that the predictions aren't in favor of. All of this is without considering issues like Head Smash's accuracy woes, Tyrantrum's lack of defensive utility, and general ease with which Tyrantrum is revenge killed. Sure, other sets exist that attempt to mitigate such issues---Hone Claws/Dragon Dance and Choice Scarf sets---but they're much less efficient in practice.

 

[Ren-chon]

A+ -> S
If we're talking about possible S-rank candidates, then Talonflame is without a doubt the best. In a tier that doesnt really have that many viable scarfers (pretty much only Rotom-Mow and the occasional Zoroark), the birds speed tier is unrivaled specially considering how well it can make use of it: it can revenge kill threats with Brave Bird or Flare Blitz (specially with the rise of Fight-types and generally frail offensive threats as of lately), status potentially annoying breakers like Sirfetch'd or AV Copp, or just pivot around with a fast U-Turn. It can also do some other minor yet cool stuff like burning through Flame Body to discourage U-Turns, Defog (altho I rly dont like fog Talon), or even run SD sets that go wild once the opposing team is properly weakened. Talonflame is a rare case of a mon that has a ton of viable options to choose from, and actually excel at all of them.

Stay A
Am I the only one that just... Doesnt get the Vaporeon hype at all? Its rise to the A-ranks was totally justified, but anything higher than a potential A+ is pushing it imo, and even A+ would be too high as of now. The problem I see with Vaporeon is that it has a lot of options to pick for its 4th move, yeah, but all of them just have some really glaring flaws that stop it from truly being a behemoth on the levels of Copperajah or even Talonflame in my eyes. Heal Bell sets are PASSIVE AS HELL, and you can easily take advantage of with mons like Dhel, Decid, Helio, Guzz, Exploud and so on, not to mention some other less common threats such as Specs Sylv or Croak, granted the latter is rising in usage. Toxic alleviates the issue a bit, but then ironically means opposing status just about OHKO Vapo since it suffers from a worrying issue of always being just shy of getting 2HKOd by some stronger moves. And then theres Roar that kinda fixes the sitting duck issue by just phazing threats away, but its in general a little less valuable rn cuz no good spikers + makes you a worse check to Salazzle. All in all, Vaporeon has such huge issues in every single one of its sets, not to mention its overall passiveness that lets certain threats feast on it, that keeps it from really being a top, S-rank contender rn.

B -> B+
This thing should rise more imo, its better than just about every single B-rank. Heck, its better than most B+ as well. Boomburst is such a hugely spammable move rn with Esca being less common, Diancie being easily chipped through hazards and Zong opting into more phys def sets, and thats on a scenario where you dont even try to predict. Exploud has the tools to break through every single one of its counters, be it through Hydro Pump, Fire Blast/Overheat, or even Taunt Silk Scarf sets that dont really seem bad on paper at all. Ofc, its kinda slow and not THAT bulky so you cant throw it in stuff and expect it to always stay above half and break through mons all game long, but its good enough to deserve at least a subrank rise.

Stay A
Honestly? To me, Blastoise should be A+ but I think there hasnt been enough experimentation with it outside HO or with the current meta trends to justify too big of a rise. Blastoise PREYS on some of the common team structures rn, specially ones lacking something like restalk Guzzlord. On Guzz-less teams, the best you can do is hope your Dragalge stays healthy through the game or that you dont let your Roar-less Vapo in when they switch in the turtle. Its best set rn is, imo, Subs Dark Pulse since it can let you sub on status users while getting just about the best coverage possible through Dark Pulse, only really resisted by Guzz and Toxicroak. Also, Ive noticed some mons rising in usage (and staying like that in post-hail meta) like Toxicroak or Helio, and new sets such as Restalk Guzz that can help keep Blastoise in check. I do think its a bit unhealthy for the tier, but Im willing to try and see if the meta will adapt without being overcentralized.

B+ -> B/B-
Is there a reason why this is B+ other than us thinking it could be the new Mienshao? I mean, we're lacking decent scarfers but we arent that desperate, I think.

B+ -> A-
Gotta agree with Rabia there. This thing goes crazy against teams w/o Guzz, and even vs squads that do have the dragon dog you can still very well fill your role of hazard removal. Unfortunately Dhel suffers from the same issue as SM in that you need (or should) to have TSpikes counter measures, be it (preferably) a grounded poison or just Heal Bell. Other than that, Poltergeist + Power Whip is some crazy good coverage that a very little number of mons can safely switch into, not to mention it actually beats hazard setters which is rarer than youd think on a removal lol

A -> A-
Been meaning to make this nom for a bit now but Rabia beat me to it. Ive played with and against the dino and he just doesnt... Seem to do much? Yeah, it can break, setup and all that but Ive always found those to be rather lacking. With Mudsdale and phys def Bronzong on the rise, Ttrum just cant do much most the time. Also, its unfortunately slower than our common scarfers at +1 so even if you do manage to find a turn to setup youre likely gonna get revenge killed right after anyway

 

[Mariannabelle]

A -> A (no change)

T-Rex is dumb and you can't change my mind

I'm gonna go with a different take and say that T-Rex is still one of the most threatening and must-prep-for mons in the tier. Rather than looking at Mudsdale and Bronzong being everywhere and saying 'gee, T-Rex must be worse now' I look at that and say 'gee, T-Rex is so threatening that it's driving usage of these guys up'. Putting aside Mudsdale for a second, Flygon and Bronzong are unsafe options in the first place.

Flygon immediately dies if it switches into the wrong move on Band, 252/252+ or no.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Flygon: 338-402 (92.8 - 110.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

A generic bulky Helmet Flygon EV'd to outspeed Toxicroak or whatever can't even take a Scarf Head Smash without being forced to immediately Roost:
252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Flygon: 122-144 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

All it takes is one good turn for Bronzong to be neutered (also, I think running DEF Zong for Tyrantrum and not SPD Zong for Psychics and Fairies speaks volumes to how much influence Tyrantrum exerts in the builder):
252 Atk Tyrantrum Assurance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 162-192 (47.9 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 178-210 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And if you do go SPD, you don't even qualify as a Tyrantrum answer:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bronzong: 168-198 (49.7 - 58.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

To reiterate: There is only one decent defensive answer to Tyrantrum in this tier.

And, putting aside Band for a second, Scarf is still arguably one of the most threatening offensive mons in the tier, considering that it OHKOs large swathes of the opposing offensive meta, and needs very little chip from the likes of hazards or U-turns or whatever to net other KOs; I'll save you a sea of calcs because you already know what I'm talking about. Offensive Rock resists like Scarf Flygon and Sirfetch'd can literally only come in one time, if at all, on Scarf Head Smash specifically, and just get deleted if they come in on a different move.

TRex is probably the single most menacing thing in the builder, barring maybe Blastoise.

As far as S-rank candidates go, uh... I hesitate to call anything S rank.

S -> something else
I'm not gonna go into a lot of detail on this, but I've used Copper and faced Copper plenty of times. I do not think it's worth an S rank. Your coverage is nice, but you're slow as balls and a typical team probably has multiple checks; it doesn't require a high degree of specificity to beat, offensively or defensively. Best Rocker doesn't mean much in a Boots era, though that might sound ironic coming from mr acrojask.

A -> A+
Everything resembling a check that isn't Vaporeon better watch their chip really closely, because this thing will eat your lunch and then your children. Yeah, there's stuff you can slap on a team, but the amount of in-battle tiptoeing you have to do to not get immediately washed is obnoxious.

A -> A+
I do think S is excessive.
Vaporeon is the mon by which I personally measure other mons, and one thing you gotta realize is that the last move doesn't really matter that much, because it's just icing- with just Scald, Wish, and Protect, you're already beating a great deal of things with sheer fat, keeping your team Wished up, the works.
Roar isn't even mandatory for the likes of Blastoise; I regret that I didn't save the replay, but I played a test game with quziel (right? I'm not going crazy and remembering fake events?) where my generic Vapes just... fatted Blastoise to death. It was stupid. Sure, an extra Dark Pulse flinch somewhere woulda helped, but damn. And this was with extra Shell Smashing and everything.
This is a mon that you don't even beat with Grass types like Rotom-Mow unless you're running Nasty Plot or whatever, just because of sheer fat.
You ever just wanna try out something new, like Refrigerate Aurorus or whatever, and then scrap the idea because Vapes just beats you with Wish stall? Vaporeon does that for an indeterminate amount of mons, and I think it deserves a higher ranking that reflects that.

 

[Corthius]

B -> B-: Comfey can very frequently become near-deadweight because of how common Pokemon such as Copperajah, Salazzle, and Talonflame are. Although it offers a lot of team support through Defog, U-turn, and Natural Cure, it's generally better to seek these roles through more viable options.

unrank this trash ass mon rfn.

anyway,

B -> B+
This thing should rise more imo, its better than just about every single B-rank. Heck, its better than most B+ as well. Boomburst is such a hugely spammable move rn with Esca being less common, Diancie being easily chipped through hazards and Zong opting into more phys def sets, and thats on a scenario where you dont even try to predict. Exploud has the tools to break through every single one of its counters, be it through Hydro Pump, Fire Blast/Overheat, or even Taunt Silk Scarf sets that dont really seem bad on paper at all. Ofc, its kinda slow and not THAT bulky so you cant throw it in stuff and expect it to always stay above half and break through mons all game long, but its good enough to deserve at least a subrank rise.

I want to take the time and heavily echo this part of Ren-chon's post. I've toyed a lot with Exploud and build the Teambuilding Lab request. I used that exact team vs Finchinator and it was amazing even tho he had a Mantine which can Roost on one Boomburst and a Copper that could follow up afterwards. While I did end up losing that game, it really wasn't because of Exploud but rather me throwing lol. You can click Boomburst for absolut free and you are only really annoyed but opposing Gigalith; every other check is super easy to wear down either with one good prediction or by just brainlessly clicking Boomburst every time it gets in.
On a side note, I've noticed that a lot of teams currently lack a good Ghost resist and Exploud actually forcing those Ghost types out, mainly Dhelmise and Decidueye (unlike you Heliolisk; still my child) is usually enough to discourage the use of Ghost moves on Golurk or Dhelmise.

edit nom:
B- -> A-
Maybe Im feeling this way because I got my ass whooped by Machineae this morning but SD Toxicroak is so scary. Mudsdale is a fine check at first but +2 Life Orb Low Kick actually needs very little chip to OHKO Mudsdale (I'll try to insert the calc when I get home). Sucker Punch is amazing for picking of faster but frail pivots like Talonflame,Salazzle and even weakened Flygon. Obviously its viability is heavily increased from the sky-high Vaporeon usage which other than Roar can't really do anything. A combo I currently like is Vaporen + Mudsdale or physdef Diancie and pretty much Wish every single time you come in. Besides SD it also has the ability to run a special set with Nasty Plot which makes everyone that relies on Mudsdale to check Toxicroak cry. While special sets have great breaking power as well, Vacuum Wave is way weaker than Sucker Punch vs a lot of pokemon that are faster than you.

 

[turtledoggo1]

UR -> C+/ B-

At first glance, it may seem like Scrafty is not a Pokemon worth using in the meta, especially when you could use other fighters such as toxicroak, machamp and sirfetch'd. With all three of the fighters being extremely good wallbreakers. However, I believe that Scrafty still has a niche as a bulky set-up mon, as unlike the other fighters, scrafty actually has bulk and decent recovery in rest +shed skin.

Scrafty is able to make a lot of progress in a longer game due to knock off and great bulk allowing it to come in on many Pokemon such as fat waters, bronzong, choiced locked ghosts and many more. Yes, the other fighters all also have knock off in their arsenal, but their fragilely means they need extra support to get in safely/ do their jobs. With Scrafty, it doesn't need to rely on pivoting moves to get in, and once in, is able to spam knock off. With the current state of the meta, there is way less Sylveon and more vaporeon. Giving scrafty better opportunities to just sweep outright. Of course, Sylveon still exists in the meta, however, it doesn't appreciate knock offs too well and gets chipped relatively easily. It feasts on non-sylveon bulky fat teams, being able to just sweep outright if there's no fairy or fighter on the field, with both of them being crippled by knock off. Rest + Bulk up paired with its natural bulk is a challenge to take down for many teams.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1324645158-91dhq56z0mnq07n6fmpqfkv6xtr8svipw

This replay shows off how Scrafty can do during a longer more drawn-out game, and how deadly it can be with some team support (in this case being spikes). Again, showing how scrafty can abuse meta trends of more vaporeon + poison type usage.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1324666450
this replay showcases scrafty's capabilities as a bulky set-up sweeper, being able to capatlize on the fact that the opponent had vaporeon instead of sylveon as their wish passer. There was a crit on copperajah at the end, but it didn't matter in the long run because scrafty would ultimately out-damage copperajah.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1324669485

this replay highlights Scrafty's bulk, allowing it to tank an offensive starmie's hydro pump as well as a +2 poltergeist from decidueye.

There is also the dragon dance set, which admittedly I have not used for a few weeks nor seen much recently. But with a little team support and potentially a roseli berry, it's able to muscle through what would be checks in diancie and sylveon. Keep in mind that this is not its best set, nor is it very consistent, but it's still a set worth mentioning as it's still able to be threatening in the right conditions.

UR -> C/C+

Qwilfish is a Pokemon that has very valuable utility in the metagame. It has an amazing defensive typing, being able to ward off fighters, steels and fairies. While also being a tspike absorber and a faster taunt user, allowing it to be a nuisance to common Pokemon such as copperajah and vaporeon. It also has some longevity, being able to heal itself with pain split, which is especially good given how much fat, high hp mons currently stand. As if that wasn't enough, qwilfish has the added benifit of being able to set up spikes, something is pretty useful especially with the rises of two prominent spike users.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1324645158-91dhq56z0mnq07n6fmpqfkv6xtr8svipw

In this replay, it shows off how qwilfish can last during a longer duration of a game, and how it can be annoying with taunt + spikes. With the spikes allowing its teammates to sweep late game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1313909685

This replay highlights qwilfish's defensive typing, allowing it to pressure glastrier and hitmonlee, while also providing spikes. It also taunts and prevents the set up of glastrier as well as blocking vaporeon's wish.

-> B-/B

Garbador in my eyes is different than weezing due to the fact that it has aftermath and spikes, something weezing does not offer. Garbador in the meta is able to serve as a decent fighting type switch in, not really being 2 hit ko'd by anything except machamp's facade, which dies to helmet chip + gunk shot + aftermath damage. Garbador forces a lot of trades with physical attackers, attackers that would otherwise be annoying for many teams. Garbador can also spike up if they decide to switch out. Garbador also has an amazing toxicroak matchup, due to the fact that it can decide to run stomping tantrum/ psychic. Weezing also does this, but doesn't do as well vs. special croak and does way worse against salazzle, which garbador can handle decently well. The ability in aftermath is very useful for trading with foes such as machamp, sirfetch'd and makes for some really cluth times. (like luring a +2 drapion to knock off your xatu, but then you switch into your 7% garbador for chip). Speaking of Xatu, Xatu can't freely come in on this as garbodor threatens a poison with gunk shot. There's also more niche moves on it such as corrosive gas which can be handy for crippling the opponent.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1317941073

this replay shows how garbador can do in later stages of a match when the defogger is gone, and how much of a pain hazards are when there isn't something to get rid of them. It's natural bulk allows it to survive for a long time.

 

[Machineae]

UR -> C+/ B-

argument for scrafty

At first glance, it may seem like Scrafty is not a Pokemon worth using in the meta, especially when you could use other fighters such as toxicroak, machamp and sirfetch'd. With all three of the fighters being extremely good wallbreakers. However, I believe that Scrafty still has a niche as a bulky set-up mon, as unlike the other fighters, scrafty actually has bulk and decent recovery in rest +shed skin.

Scrafty is able to make a lot of progress in a longer game due to knock off and great bulk allowing it to come in on many Pokemon such as fat waters, bronzong, choiced locked ghosts and many more. Yes, the other fighters all also have knock off in their arsenal, but their fragilely means they need extra support to get in safely/ do their jobs. With Scrafty, it doesn't need to rely on pivoting moves to get in, and once in, is able to spam knock off. With the current state of the meta, there is way less Sylveon and more vaporeon. Giving scrafty better opportunities to just sweep outright. Of course, Sylveon still exists in the meta, however, it doesn't appreciate knock offs too well and gets chipped relatively easily. It feasts on non-sylveon bulky fat teams, being able to just sweep outright if there's no fairy or fighter on the field, with both of them being crippled by knock off. Rest + Bulk up paired with its natural bulk is a challenge to take down for many teams.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1324645158-91dhq56z0mnq07n6fmpqfkv6xtr8svipw

This replay shows off how Scrafty can do during a longer more drawn-out game, and how deadly it can be with some team support (in this case being spikes). Again, showing how scrafty can abuse meta trends of more vaporeon + poison type usage.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1324666450
this replay showcases scrafty's capabilities as a bulky set-up sweeper, being able to capatlize on the fact that the opponent had vaporeon instead of sylveon as their wish passer. There was a crit on copperajah at the end, but it didn't matter in the long run because scrafty would ultimately out-damage copperajah.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1324669485

this replay highlights Scrafty's bulk, allowing it to tank an offensive starmie's hydro pump as well as a +2 poltergeist from decidueye.

There is also the dragon dance set, which admittedly I have not used for a few weeks nor seen much recently. But with a little team support and potentially a roseli berry, it's able to muscle through what would be checks in diancie and sylveon. Keep in mind that this is not its best set, nor is it very consistent, but it's still a set worth mentioning as it's still able to be threatening in the right conditions.

everything not scrafty

UR -> C/C+

Qwilfish is a Pokemon that has very valuable utility in the metagame. It has an amazing defensive typing, being able to ward off fighters, steels and fairies. While also being a tspike absorber and a faster taunt user, allowing it to be a nuisance to common Pokemon such as copperajah and vaporeon. It also has some longevity, being able to heal itself with pain split, which is especially good given how much fat, high hp mons currently stand. As if that wasn't enough, qwilfish has the added benifit of being able to set up spikes, something is pretty useful especially with the rises of two prominent spike users.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1324645158-91dhq56z0mnq07n6fmpqfkv6xtr8svipw

In this replay, it shows off how qwilfish can last during a longer duration of a game, and how it can be annoying with taunt + spikes. With the spikes allowing its teammates to sweep late game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1313909685

This replay highlights qwilfish's defensive typing, allowing it to pressure glastrier and hitmonlee, while also providing spikes. It also taunts and prevents the set up of glastrier as well as blocking vaporeon's wish.

-> B-/B

Garbador in my eyes is different than weezing due to the fact that it has aftermath and spikes, something weezing does not offer. Garbador in the meta is able to serve as a decent fighting type switch in, not really being 2 hit ko'd by anything except machamp's facade, which dies to helmet chip + gunk shot + aftermath damage. Garbador forces a lot of trades with physical attackers, attackers that would otherwise be annoying for many teams. Garbador can also spike up if they decide to switch out. Garbador also has an amazing toxicroak matchup, due to the fact that it can decide to run stomping tantrum/ psychic. Weezing also does this, but doesn't do as well vs. special croak and does way worse against salazzle, which garbador can handle decently well. The ability in aftermath is very useful for trading with foes such as machamp, sirfetch'd and makes for some really cluth times. (like luring a +2 drapion to knock off your xatu, but then you switch into your 7% garbador for chip). Speaking of Xatu, Xatu can't freely come in on this as garbodor threatens a poison with gunk shot. There's also more niche moves on it such as corrosive gas which can be handy for crippling the opponent.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1317941073

this replay shows how garbador can do in later stages of a match when the defogger is gone, and how much of a pain hazards are when there isn't something to get rid of them. It's natural bulk allows it to survive for a long time.

I can vouch for Scrafty too! I've been exploring DD quite a bit the past few days and have had surprising success across different elo/gxe on alts. While Turt is advocating based mostly on a slower paced Rest+BU set, I've been going full pedal to the metal with DD+Sitrus and have seen plenty of other esteemed users touting their success with it. The team in particular I have been using is over a year old by Oathkeepre but performs excellently still (tho go for Dhelm>Gourg, Flash Cannon>Spin on Turt.) With prior chip/stacking offensive typings (Croak+Scraft) you're easily able to muscle past checks and get the boost train rolling.

the set

Scrafty @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Moxie
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Iron Head

 

[skierdude101]

-> A- to B+

Vileplume seems a bit outclassed by the other A- tier mons, and I really feel like it belongs with the rest of the B+ mons and not lower. I built a team with Plume for the first time since Pangoro times and honestly I was pretty impressed by it still. As long as you're not relying on it as your sole Sirfetch'd/Machamp check, its a relatively safe switchin into so many pokemon in the tier, like and with Corrosive Gas, you can really cripple switchins like .

-> UR to C

Sorry I forgot to save the replays for this, but how is this mon UR? It is such a fantastic utility mon that can offer something really unique to a team.

Standard Set

Uxie @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Psychic
- U-turn

This is what I imagine the standard set would pretty much look like for most teams, but it has many other options including Heal Bell, Toxic, Healing Wish, ThunderWave, Trick, Encore, Memento, Yawn. I get that it doesn't really have reliable recovery, but with how good our clerics are right now, its easy to pair Uxie with something else to provide it a bit of longevity.

 

[Rabia]

I'm gonna be organizing the next voting slate soon after the Glastrier suspect test results, but I have a couple of nominations to make beforehand.

-> B-
I don't have replays, so take my word here. Alolan Exeggutor has felt very sufficient as a strong wallbreaker whose typing lets it exploit common defensive options like Vaporeon, Flygon (mostly non-U-turn variants), and Arcanine. The set I've been using is Life Orb with Draco Meteor / Giga Drain / Flamethrower / Synthesis, and you end up with a lot of leverage in those situations where Choice Specs sets would have to predict between say, a Steel-type switching in or just some generic specially bulky Pokemon. Synthesis is particularly nice because Alolan Exeggutor really wants to use its typing and passable bulk to find chances to switch in. It's a Pokemon that has worked fine in test games and on ladder but obviously has some opportunity cost to it with other Dragon- and Grass-types like Dragalge, Guzzlord, Decidueye, and Dhelmise being so great, but I definitely think Alolan Exeggutor has a place in this metagame. Here's a team with it if you'd like to try it out for yourself: https://pokepast.es/19bb86563232ef22

-> A-
Right, so I nominated this down last slate, but as I've used it a lot more lately, Decidueye has felt worth moving back up. I think part of it is that Guzzlord is the most common Dark-type we have right now, and well, U-turn is super easy to fit on Choice Specs and Choice Band Decidueye. As I look at the rest of B+ and even a couple of the options in A-, Decidueye just feels better than them and has been more present in the metagame too.

-> B/B+
I will continue shoving CritDra down everyone's throats until it stops getting disrespected...

edit:

-> B
In terms of strong Dark-types, NU really only has Choice Band Guzzlord, which is sort of exploitable because well, it locks into an attack and isn't the strongest attacker ever. Absol is really hard to defensively deal with if you lack a Fairy-type, and even then you risk getting bonked by Iron Tail. Sucker Punch giving this thing a reasonable offense matchup is really cool too and helps set it apart from the other offensive Dark-types in the tier, which all struggle a bit more with offense teams. Here's a replay featuring Absol: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1329210260-n89uygw9moonmik5j3a77vb7pankgvnpw It isn't the best showing ever because all Absol does is come in twice and use Knock Off, but I think it shows how it matches up decently well into how a lot of common balance structures work.

 

[Rabia]

Post-Glastrier update time :)

NEW

-> A-: A bit of a mixed bag in terms of voting from our council, but overall Glastrier still retains a solid position in the metagame for its setup sets and wallbreaking sets due to its stats and coverage being great. Its defensive typing is really unfortunate and means you can't make as much use out of its bulk as you'd like, but it still remains an effective pick that's pretty straightforward to support.
-> C+: One of the few offensive Dark-types in the tier, which immediately establishes a niche for it. It's super damn strong, and Sucker Punch is really nice against offense teams and potential revenge killers. Being stonewalled by Fairy-types---assuming no Iron Tail---can be tough, but STAB Knock Off + Close Combat can break through many teams quite easily.
-> C+: Much like SM NU, Alolan Exeggutor is still really hard to wall. STAB Draco Meteor hurts like a motherfucker, and its coverage is just a really good complement. Competition with Dragalge, Guzzlord, and Decidueye is obviously a detriment to it, but Synthesis + raw power helps set it apart from those few.
-> C+: Welcome back I guess. Dark-types are a luxury, and Scrafty can certainly win games late with its Bulk Up set. Just get rid of the Fairy-types first.
-> C: After losing Golisopod and Roserade earlier this month, NU has had to resort to some other Spikers, and Qwilfish is more than serviceable, being able to bother many physical attackers like Sirfetch'd and Copperajah.
-> C: Good utility Pokemon with useful moves like U-turn, Knock Off, Stealth Rock, etc.. SubCM sets also have some potential a la Cresselia, albeit worse.

RISES

-> S-: Rotom-C is legit unpunishable at times. Its Volt Switch is super hard to block because of the threat of Leaf Storm and Will-O-Wisp, and its set versatility between Choice Scarf, Defog, Nasty Plot, etc. further contributes to how good this Pokemon is.
-> S-: It's still insanely effective in a metagame where Vaporeon sees significant usage. It's really good at slowly winning games with Toxic + Knock Off, and all variants of Nasty Plot sets (Focus Sash w/ Dragon Pulse, Toxic + NP/Encore) see great success. SubToxic is also still unfair.

-> A+: Heatproof Bronzong rising has led to it being a much more effective answer to foes like Salazzle and Copperajah and also gives it a better Talonflame matchup.
-> A+: It's by far the best slow pivot in the tier, and this is great for enabling many of the deadly wallbreakers in the tier (Sirfetch'd is the big one). It's also an incredibly proficient wallbreaker even when running bulkier sets because of Adaptability + great coverage.
-> A+: Leek is increasing in usage and is just really convenient given Sirfetch'd's already great natural power. Not having to predict is a huge benefit, and being able to cheese past checks like Mudsdale with critical hits is exemplary. Swords Dance is also a little more common now, which further messes up counterplay.
-> A+: Lol another Pokemon rising back up, some people thought Sylveon should never have dropped, but offensive sets picking up in usage and being really good at their job makes contending with it quite unfun.

-> A: Diancie is getting more usage as a Stealth Rock setter, typically alongside AV Copperajah, Offensive sets are also great and deserve a lot more usage than they currently get!!!!
-> A: Generally competent check to a lot of Pokemon, i.e. Starmie, Decidueye, Silvally-Ghost, and more, plus its wallbreaker sets are still quite effective because STAB Knock Off and good coverage.

-> A-: Because the metagame is a bit slower right now, Drapion is a bit more effective in playing the long game spreading poisons with Poison Jab and removing items. It's also a Dark-type :D and those are good
-> A-: Vaporeon hype? Okay Toxicroak time! It can soft check Dark- and Fighting-types somewhat, and +2 Adamant Life Orb Low Kick OHKOing Mudsdale is hilarious.

-> B+: Balanced Boomburst does lots of damage. Even resistant Pokemon like physically defensive Bronzong can take nearly 40%, which is insane. Taunt sets also are great at bothering foes like specially defensive Mantine.
-> B+: My campaign to make Kingdra S rank continues... It's another great example of a Pokemon that can exploit high Vaporeon usage, and it has actually insane late-game potential comparable to Shell Smash Blastoise with its CritDra set.
-> B+: Lots of hype behind Tauros because of coverage + power + Speed tier making it really annoying to contend with. It's great at all states of the game and just generally easy to get mileage out of.

-> B-: Viable Spiker + can trade KOs with Sirfetch'd. I don't have much else to say here.

-> C+: Substitute sets take major advantage of Vaporeon, and Water Bubble can make its Liquidation fairly punishing to play around. It also has enough natural special to sort of check Blastoise, which is nice.

DROPS

-> A-: Although Tyrantrum's Head Smash is legit one of the strongest moves ever conceived, every team generally has several ways to deter the dinosaur from spamming its move. NU definitely has means to compensate for Tyrantrum's defensive shortcomings and help it get it into play, but it still falls short compared to other breakers.

-> B+: Vileplume can still check a good amount of physical attackers and deters pivot from foes like Flygon really well, as well as supplying so much annoying bullshit to deal with i.e. Corrosive Gas and Strength Sap. But as the metagame has developed, its ability to just hard shut down entire teams has been left behind.

-> B: Vaporeon and Talonflame outclass it heavily as utility/defensive Water- and Flying-types, and it generally seems a lot easier to overwhelm nowadays.
-> B: Hasn't managed to catch on too much as a Choice Scarf user. The ubiquity of Talonflame also sucks for it because you're pretty much forced into Rock Slide, which means Poison- and Fairy-types just wall it forever. It isn't SM NU Passimian.

-> B-: I couldn't tell you why it ever rose to B in the first place.

-> C:
-> C: Both of these guys are dropping for the same reason: terrain teams aren't very common nor effective. They're matchup-based offense teams that aren't very good at finding those dream matchups. Dual screens is basically the superior offense build at this point.

UNRANKED

(fairy)
Arctovish is not good without auto hail. Centiskorch has not been a great wallbreaker for quite some time now, although it probably still has some merit. Charizard < Talonflame, and sun teams aren't really present at all right now. Silvally-Fairy is just not good at finding opportunities to sweep in this metagame. Sneasel has not been seen since 2020.

Will get the discussion points post up ASAP too! Happy posting :)

 

[Rabia]

DISCUSSION POINTS

-> S-
These are the two other Pokemon the VR council considered raising to S-, although they ultimately didn't make the cut. Should they have? Or are they still a noticeable step below Salazzle and Rotom-C?

-> higher
Heliolisk has a pretty good spot in this metagame in soft checking offensive Water- and Ghost-types. It's a nice wallbreaker because of its coverage and Speed tier and a good enough revenge killer to see use in that regard. Is B+ underselling it?

-> literally anywhere else
Glastrier received ranking votes ranging from B to S rank LMAO so obviously the voting council is really split on it. Is A- a fair compromise/indicative of how good it is? Or does the frozen horse need to migrate?

 

[Minimizing]

Rhydon to B+ through A​

The reason I am nominating Rhydon is because is quite possibly the most underrated mon in the entire NU metagame and in my opinion outclasses mudsdale. Rhydon's best set is the set listed below and depending on what the 3rd move slot is rhydon can do different things.
Rhydon @ Eviolite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast/Stone Edge/Smack down
- Swords Dance
I like rock blast the most since it connects more often than stone edge and can break through and OHKO annoying mons such as substitute toxic Salazzle. Stone Edge gives Rhydon more power but misses more often and does not have nearly as much pp. Also the extra added power is not really needed unless you want to confirm a 2hit ko vs something like dhelmise. Smack down has some good utility allowing Rhydon to hit Levitate mons such as flygon, bronzong, or weezing. The best thing about Rhydon is unlike Mudsdale Rhydon can break through Defensive and balance teams with swords dance. Rhydon also outruns the many slow offensive/defensive pokemon in the tier such as Vaporeon, Sylveon, Dragalge, Copperajah, Diancie, Guzzlord, Glastrier, Mudsdale, Dhelmise, Escavalier, and Vileplume. Rhydon can threaten all of these mons and nothing likes switching into rhydon in this tier. On top of this rhydon can always get an attack off because of it's immense defense.

Calcs on Rhyperior's wallbreaking ability
After Swords Dance​

+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 288-339 (81.3 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 352-415 (75.8 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 337-397 (85.5 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mudsdale: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stamina + Leftovers
+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise: 358-423 (110.1 - 130.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise: 273-324 (84 - 99.6%) -- approx. 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Escavalier: 342-403 (99.4 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 432-510 (118.6 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Glastrier: 360-432 (89.1 - 106.9%) -- approx. 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 104 Def Guzzlord: 504-594 (85.8 - 101.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Without Swords Dance​

252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 254-300 (83.5 - 98.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 392-464 (117.3 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Copperajah: 488-576 (115 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise: 180-213 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 234-276 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Smack Down
252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 216-255 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Smack Down
252+ Atk burned Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Talonflame: 422-500 (117.2 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 216-255 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Mow: 169-201 (70.1 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Rhydon Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 414-492 (149.4 - 177.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 288-342 (75 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 308-366 (100.9 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Drapion: 332-392 (118.1 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Rhydon Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Braviary: 348-414 (102 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Mantine: 374-444 (100 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO





Rhydon is able to wall many highly ranked S tier and A tier pokemon in NU such as Talonflame, Salazzle, Drapion, and Tyrantrum it's bulk allows it multiple switch in chances which can be improved by a partner such as wish support sylveon.

Rhyperior's Impressive Defense​

252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz/Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 41-48 (11.6 - 13.6%) -- possible 8HKO
252 SpA Salazzle Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 82-97 (23.2 - 27.5%) -- 75.2% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Drapion Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 98-116 (27.8 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Tyrantrum Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 138-164 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Mudsdale Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 152-180 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Copperajah Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 300-356 (85.2 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Guzzlord Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 116-138 (32.9 - 39.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 315-374 (89.4 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 160-190 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Sirfetch’d Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 254-300 (72.1 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Braviary Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 146-172 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Rhydon's Switch in opportunities/Viability as a Stealth Rocker​

As shown in the calcs above there are many opportunites for Rhydon to switch in since it walls so many pokemon. While Rhydon can be worn down wish support can make it last a lot longer than usual. Also as mentioned above Rhydon outspeeds the many slow defensive and offensive breakers in the tier allowing it more chances to break through teams. The best part about rhydon is it's great matchups against other rockers in the tier. Mudsdale is not a good counter after swords dance Rhydon will always 2HKO with earthquake even after stamina while mudsdale only has a 3% chance to 2HKO with Earthquake. Rhydon outspeeds stealth rock copperajah and also threatens a OHKO. Power whip only has a 12.5% chance to OHKO rhydon with Max attack copperajah. Rhydon outspeeds Diance and hits Diance hard. Rhydon does not take much from Diance in return. Bronzong is outspeed and can be easily threatened after an Swords Dance or Smack down. Just about every Hazard removal mon hates switching into Rhydon as well. Talonflame will be OHKO even if Rhydon is burned. After a Swords dance flygon is easily 2HKO by Rhydon with Stone Edge/Rock blast while flygon can only 3HKO Rhydon in return. Rhydon Outspeeds and also can 2HKO Dhelmise not allowing it to switch in. Mantine gets OHKO by Rhydon.


Replays
Sorry if these dont work literally worked on this post for like 1-2 hours and its 12:30am dont feel like fighting more battles

file:///C:/Users/Vande/Downloads/Gen8NU-2021-04-30-minimizing-peedrin.html Able to kill 3 mons

file:///C:/Users/Vande/Downloads/Gen8NU-2021-04-30-bootlegusername-minimizing.html Able to kill a bronzong in 1v1

file:///C:/Users/Vande/Downloads/Gen8NU-2021-04-30-minimizing-edfinn.html Beats Shuckle as a Lead and damages dhelmise enough to Threaten with Machamp through colbur berry


Sorry if thoughts were no coherent enough

TLDR: Fills Same role as Mudsdale with wall breaking ability outclasses it imo

 

[Finchinator]

Rhydon is a strong and can rank physical hits well, but it struggles to find its way into many teams due to its typing and various more convenient/practical options both as SR setters and physical attackers. I think moving anything up from UR to the B or A ranks is a stretch as is, but Rhydon in particular struggles to find a consistent niche and does not see much usage on the ladder or in tournaments. I think a placement in the C rank makes a lot more sense than much further up for now. This can always change in the future if it sees actual usage moving forward, too.

 

[Catalisador]

C tier? I barely know her! A review of the most powerful non-ranked NU-viable pokémon!


A bulky Water-type option over Vaporeon, Jellicent is able to check the likes of Toxicroak and Glastrier while providing extreme defensive value in the current metagame. Also, access to Taunt makes Jellicent a decent stallbreaker in conjunction with Hex and a status move (WoW or Toxic). It is definitely a fantastic pick right now and should not be underrestimated.


I get the reasoning behind unranking Centiskorch, but I firmly believe it still has a niche in the current metagame. I, personally, have ben toying around with this little millipede friend as of recently and it still proves to be a decent pokémon in the current metagame. Being able to force Knock Off onto defensive, boots-reliant pokémon such as Talonflame and Arcanine is invaluable. Furthermore, its STAB Fire Lash drops the defense of common switch-ins, improving its breaking potential, and access to great coverage in Power Whip, destroying bulky Water-types such as Vaporeon and Jellicent, as well as Leech Life, punishing the likes of Guzzlord while providing decent recovery, makes Centiskorch a powerful breaking force in NU.

-Fairy
Offensive Fairy-types are extremely good right now, in my opinion, and these two are prime examples. The former provides U-Turn momentum while breaking through defensive core with a spammable STAB Mooblast (with Trick support to cripple Steel-types and/or Quiver Dance in order to work as a late-game sweeper once said Steels are weakened enough), while the later provides insane defensive and offensive utility thanks to great all around 95/95/95 bulk and access to Swords Dance with great STAB Multi-Attack and coverage options in Flame Charge, Rock Slide and even U-turn or Psychic Fangs.


I think both of these pokémon deserve some recognition. As mentioned earlier, Rhydon has great breaking potential while keeping some defensive utility. As for Regirock, I've been playing with a SubID set that takes advantage of metagame trends such as Salazzle and Vaporeon + Steel-types to act as a secondary, late-game win condition and overall defensive glue, destroying unaware bulkier builds. Not exactly a defining force in the metagame, but definitely a fun one!


Druddigon is another unranked mon with great potential in the metagame. Its defensive utility is outstanding, being able to check the likes of Copperajah, Rotom-Mow, Talonflame, Vaporeon, Ninjask and even Blastoise if SpDef invested and all in a single slot. Furthermore, its newfound Mold Breaker utility set allows it to setup hazards and spread status comfortably in the face of the new meta-trend Xatu. Also, thanks to our Wish-heavy metagame, it is easy to find opportunities to keep this dragon alive and well for a long, long while.


One of the few surviving Spikes users of the NU tier, Froslass is blessed with amazing offensive coverage in Ice and Ghost, being able to bully common defoggers and hazard-deterrant pokémon such as Xatu with its powerful STAB moves. Furthermore, access to utility moves in Taunt and Dual Screens makes it a valuable pick in the current SS NU metagame.


Togedemaru is not exactly a fantastic, metagame defining threat, but it can fulfill a unique niche: a Steel-type that can check Rotom-Mow. Furthermore, being able to spread status succesfully with either Nuzzle or Toxic, provide momentum with U-Turn, provide Wish support or even chip damage with Spiky Shield + Iron Barbs damage is extremely valuable for more passive builds. Its Speed tier is also enough to outpace the mighty Sirfetch'd with little investment and its dual STAB combination can threaten a wide margin of NU pokémon (Vaporeon, Flare Blitz-less Talonflame, Sylveon, Ninjask, Articuno-Galar, Dragalge, choice-locked Tyrantrum, Mantine, etc.).

C -> B/B+
Lastly, I wanted to propose a rise. Vikavolt is an extremely good and underrated pivot in the current SS NU metagame. Being able to check the likes of Rotom-Mow, Mudsdale, defensive Flygon and Vaporeon while providing outstanding breaking potential thanks to 145 SpA and nearly-uncontested momentum-grabbing utility thanks to Volt Switch + Energy Ball/Bug Buzz to punish common Volt Switch deterrents makes this bug extremely powerful. Furthermore, access to reliable recovery in Roost keeps this pokémon healthy throughout the game and access to utility moves in Thunder Wave, Toxic or even Agility makes it even more supportive or able to pull of a win-condition role for more offensive builds (Throat Spray Vika is a threat!). I hope you guys give it a try!

I'll be leaving below a list of teams showcasing these lesser used pokémon and I hope you guys give them a try and give your opinions on them!

Spex Decidueye Toxic Spam:


SubID Regirock:


QD Ribombee:


AoA Centiskorch:
-Fairy

Vikavolt:


SD Darkvally:
-Dark

SD Rhydon:


Scarf CM Indeedee-F:
-Fairy

SD Virizion:


Scarf Inteleon:



Edit:
added some more teams!

 

[Lucario]

I wrote this while it was late, so some stuff may not sound "correct" so blame humans needing sleep :/

So I was going through the shitmons of ZU and stumbled across
UR --> C

Frosty Moth

This Pokemon has some potential to be good, especially with checking Blastoise. Ice Scales is an amazing ability that allows Blastoise's Surf at +2 be a potential 3hko. I haven't really had much time to build or battle lately, so currently there won't be any replays, only stats (I may edit some in eventually).
Firstly, this thing does not get OHKO'd by a single Special Wallbreaker except for Overheat Exploud, Salazzle, and Flamethrower Zoroark. There are other small things like Goodra that sometimes run Fire Blast and Arcanine being Arcanine, but they aren't too too common enough as of right now. Sure, it has piss poor Defense, but it makes up for that in Quiver Dance and good coverage.
Secondly, it is strong. After 1 Quiver Dance it will hit hard while outspeeding a lot of the tier aside from common Scarfers, Intel, Salazzle, Starmie, etc (unless you're Timid). With that said, it can hit hard. The tier is insanely weak to the Ice-type right now with Steel-types being your best bet, I will get more on the Steels later.
Thirdly (is that even a word?), it switches in on Blastoise, Dragalge, Mowtom, and so much more. If it is a Special Wallbreaker, it does not like Frosmoth.
Now, it does have common checks like the supreme Copperajah and common Bronzong and somehow has 5% usage Silvally-Steel. This is why it should be in C tier and not C+/B-. Physical attackers and Steel types are too much for it, so all stats/calcs will be of It versus walls and special wallbreakers versus it, no physical wallbreakers.
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ice Scales Frosmoth: 131-155 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Frosmoth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 154-182 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ice Scales Frosmoth: 146-172 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ice Scales Frosmoth: 69-81 (24.5 - 28.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
124+ SpA Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ice Scales Frosmoth: 124-146 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ice Scales Frosmoth: 142-168 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ice Scales Frosmoth: 106-125 (37.7 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Indeedee-F Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ice Scales Frosmoth in Psychic Terrain: 167-197 (59.4 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Frosmoth Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 248-294 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Frosmoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong: 187-222 (55.3 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Frosmoth Bug Buzz vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 169-199 (52.1 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Frosmoth Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mantine: 160-190 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1334561289-mhjjr8upszc2foervmzxq4bw7aifg56pw Here is a replay, versions of this team have been doing we on ladder!

Some other Pokemon I wanted to make note of include:
(Ghost)

Passimian

B --> B/B+ (Stay/Rise)
Passimian is often hated on for being not as good of a Scarf Pivot as Mowtom or Flygon, which I get. But, Pass is still really strong right now. Base 120 Attack, access to Defiant to counter Defog, and being a Fighting-type makes it an amazing Pokemon. It has access to Rock Slide for Talonflame and Mantine, Gunk Shot for Sylveon and Comfey, CC as STAB does a lot of damage to a lot of Pokemon. This is a very underrated Pokemon and should not go any lower than B (and should go back to B+).

Inteleon

B- --> B
I've states before my thoughts on Inteleon, it is an amazing Special wallbreaker, and with Scarf it can be even better. My only issue is that when I look at B- I see 2.5 good Pokemon, Inteleon, Garbodor, and somewhat Ninjask. To me, it just stands out as far superior to all B- Pokemon, being ranked with Celebi and Virizion while below Goodra and Silvally-Ghost is kind of sad. Scarf sets are probably its second best, behind Scope Lens + Sniper as that is Sirfetch'd 2.0. Specs sets are also phenomenal as it hits like a truck, it also can pivot on foes like Vaporeon and Mantine, which is nice.

(Ghost)

Lol

B/B- --> C+ (For all 3)
Silvally-Ghost is ruined by the likes of Sirfetch'd and the rise of Dark-types like Guzzlord and Absol (Scrafty too??). This thing hasn't been great since Cresselia. Normal-types are also becoming good all of a sudden, which hurts it.
Goodra is just awful. CritDra is a better Draco Meteor spammer right now as it can basically ignore the SpA drop. It has nice coverage and SpDef, but all in all it isn't great. Tyrantrum and Flygon existing also hurt it.
Virizion... I don't really have much to say other than ask 'what does it do?'

Drapion

A- --> B+
Similarly to Silv-Ghost, this was better during Cress meta. Now, it's meh. Mudsdale and Flygon quickly KO it while not caring about what it used, other than Toxic. It doesn't stand out compared to other A- Pokemon.

 

[Expulso]

dropping drapion is tomfoolery. balderdash. malarkey, even. here's why:

most flygon aren't roost, i believe; defensive is the 3rd most common set or so, behind Scarf and DD (argubaly not DD, but def less common than Scarf). losing your scarf from needing to switch into drapion is an often-frustrating interaction that can really weaken you versus the rest of your opponent's team, and teams with scarf flygon (the most common flygon) often have no other way to handle drapion.

rather than being walled by mudsdale, it cripples it, making chip damage stay on more easily and permanently. drapion + another Pokemon that draws in and chips Mudsdale (think Flygon, Copper, your own Muds, Passimian (which is bad), Talonflame, etc.) can easily put Muds in a position where it's in range of a +2 Knock (65BP). Mudsdale is fairly exploitable, too, so cores like Drap + Celebi/Decid/Rotom-Mow/insert grass here or Drap + Xatu can consistently weaken and force out Mudsdale until it cant check Drap.

these 2 mons are also the only two reliable, good answers to drap! and even they lose their item in the process of checking it. Mudsdale will usually wind up in range if they are unable to pass a Wish to it, which is fairly easy to prevent (you can't pass vapo -> muds if they go to a grass type on vapo, you also cant rly pass sylv -> muds if they go to pwhip copper or lazzle -- prob the most common switch-ins to salazzle. Defensive Flygon does well, but that is like its 3rd most common set right now; even the S-ranks have solid but uncommon counters.

its speed tier is also great

tl;dr - keep drap a- or higher, id propose it goes to A rank if anything

thanks :] - #1 drap stan

 

[Stories]

dropping drapion is tomfoolery. balderdash. malarkey, even. here's why:

most flygon aren't roost, i believe; defensive is the 3rd most common set or so, behind Scarf and DD (argubaly not DD, but def less common than Scarf). losing your scarf from needing to switch into drapion is an often-frustrating interaction that can really weaken you versus the rest of your opponent's team, and teams with scarf flygon (the most common flygon) often have no other way to handle drapion.

rather than being walled by mudsdale, it cripples it, making chip damage stay on more easily and permanently. drapion + another Pokemon that draws in and chips Mudsdale (think Flygon, Copper, your own Muds, Passimian (which is bad), Talonflame, etc.) can easily put Muds in a position where it's in range of a +2 Knock (65BP). Mudsdale is fairly exploitable, too, so cores like Drap + Celebi/Decid/Rotom-Mow/insert grass here or Drap + Xatu can consistently weaken and force out Mudsdale until it cant check Drap.

these 2 mons are also the only two reliable, good answers to drap! and even they lose their item in the process of checking it. Mudsdale will usually wind up in range if they are unable to pass a Wish to it, which is fairly easy to prevent (you can't pass vapo -> muds if they go to a grass type on vapo, you also cant rly pass sylv -> muds if they go to pwhip copper or lazzle -- prob the most common switch-ins to salazzle. Defensive Flygon does well, but that is like its 3rd most common set right now; even the S-ranks have solid but uncommon counters.

its speed tier is also great

tl;dr - keep drap a- or higher, id propose it goes to A rank if anything

thanks :] - #1 drap stan

For April, Rocky Helmet was Flygon's most used item sitting at about 37.5% usage, with Choice Scarf at second place in about 26.6% usage. I must agree with you though that Drapion is definitely underrated as an enabler for other Pokemon to succeed against the best of the tier. Every single Pokemon either needs its item, or hates being Poisoned, and Drapion easily cripples things in both ways while not being passive in any regard. Drapion also has a fantastic speed tier and natural bulk, along with one of the best offensive and defensive typings with great coverage to boot. I agree with Ex here that Drapion deserves A Rank simply for its ability to threaten or cripple the entirety of S through A rank

 

[Stories]

Look, I'm not gonna say it deserves a place on the VR yet, I just wanted to report my findings here. We already have 2 horses up high on the VR anyway, what's one more?

we've already seen what a fast and powerful Fire type can do to the tier, with Salazzle and Talonflame well above A rank, and Entei banned, and there aren't any other fast, strong Fire types available besides the underrated Arcanine and not-good Charizard. This is where I bring up Rapidash. I'm sure you already think you know what this thing does, but I would like to go over how hard this thing demolishes balance after a Swords Dance boost, which it can get fairly easily in the face of Pokemon such as Sylveon, Bronzong, Copperajah, and Rotom-C.

Damage Calcs

+2 252 Atk Rapidash Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Vaporeon: 464-548 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Rapidash Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 394-464 (108.2 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Rapidash Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 104 Def Guzzlord: 920-1084 (156.7 - 184.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Rapidash High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 376-444 (112.5 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Rapidash High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 242-286 (79.6 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 307-363 (77.9 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Rapidash Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blastoise: 326-384 (109 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Rapidash High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 298-352 (97.7 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Rapidash Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 282-332 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Rapidash High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salazzle: 1036-1220 (374 - 440.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Rapidash Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 430-508 (144.7 - 171%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Rapidash High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 416-490 (108.3 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now Rapidash obviously struggles with common forms of speed control such as Choice Scarf Flygon, and the faster Pokemon of the tier like Starmie or Aerodactyl, but against those classic bulky balance teams with Copperajah, Defensive Flygon, and one of the broken Eeveelutions, Rapidash will wall break extremely well to allow another Pokemon to clean up later. The fact that I'm even considering Rapidash just really shows how starved we are for physical Fire-types, but I think Rapidash could fulfill a genuine niche in the tier even if its not that good, so I figured I'd make a little post about it

 

[roxie]

A+ -> lower
Talonflame's high Speed and support in Defog is great on paper but I feel like this suffers entirely too much from its Fire / Flying typing to be sitting at A+. Knock Off is such a spammable move on pretty much anything with access to it. This includes Fighting-types like Sirfetch'd, Machamp, and Passimian. I feel like on certain builds, this mons shines but it's just extremely vulnerable to Stealth Rock. Fighting-types like Passimian and Virizion and other common Pokemon like Copperajah has access to Rock coverage and it's pretty much a 50 / 50 risking being OHKOed by a predict attempting to switch this bird in.

A-
I've glanced over discussion on this Pokemon and from experience, it was choosing between using Aqua Tail to hit Mudsdale or Ice Fang to hit defensive Rocky Helmet Flygon. Shuca Berry allows it to survive an Earthquake from the mentioned Pokemon and retaliate. Earthquake Guzzlord is also a thing that's common and its definitely hard to break through cores with Mudsdale + Guzzlord | Flygon + Guzzlord or even just Guzzlord itself assuming there isn't a Swords Dance boost. Sadly, it does not have access to recovery outside of passive recovery and Wish support from Vaporeon and Sylveon and it's not known for having fantastic bulk, pretty much making it a little difficult to keep this healthy throughout the match. I support keeping it at A- and I'd rather see some usage or replays from NUPL to vouch for this to move up a rank again.

B-
Celebi feels like a top Grass-type to me especially because of its overall bulk to help with Pokemon like Blastoise, Rotom-C, Starmie and set Stealth Rock, allowing Copperajah to opt for a non-SR set like Assualt Vest or something creative like Choice Band. What brings it down sadly is the common U-turn users in Flygon, Passimian, Talonflame and Sirfetch'd making it a check as opposed to a counter due to its access to First Impression. Nasty Plot sets have been seen because of its Coverage moves like Psychic, Giga Drain, and Aura Sphere/Earth Power also. I do think this mon is interesting and ig I just wanted to credit its ability in helping with some special attackers in the tier.

higher
Defensive Arcanine is a top answer to Glastrier now and because of Intimidate, it can outspeed physical attackers like Sirfetch'd and Machamp and use Flamethrower/Toxic + recovery with Morning Sun. Teleport is also a safety move to bring wallbreakers in without taking damage.

I have some nominations but I want to use the usage stats and replays from nupl to help support my arguments