Unpopular opinions

[Suspicious Derivative]

Being able to revisit Kanto - It's boring. Aside from battling the Gym Leaders and Red, there really isn't anything noteworthy to do. Kanto was already pretty dull in the original games, but in GSC, the region is about half its original size, the few locations that do remain are really just there for the sake of being there, the player still runs into Lv. 2 Rattatas on Route 1, and there's just nothing else new to look forward to once you get there. It seems to me like this iteration of Kanto was included the way it was just so players could reminisce about their trek through the region the previous generation - which may be a great idea for a museum exhibit, but not so great as a gameplay choice.

This is one of the most common things I see when people say they like the Johto games. Johto fans often mention "Two regions!" as one of their main reasons for liking the Johto games. But I don't think I have ever seen anyone say "Two regions, and it's good." Which I personally don't think it is. It seems like some people prefer quantity over quality when it comes to regions in Pokémon. Personally, I think other games have better post-games in terms of new areas to explore, notably FR/LG, D/P/P, B/W and B2/W2. They might not have an entire new region to explore, but what they have is much better executed than Kanto in the Johto games. Apart from that, I agree with almost everything else you said, just wanted to comment on this.

Regarding how G/S/C felt mysterious, that is something I actually agree with. My first Pokémon game was Blue, but my second one was Silver and my third was Crystal, so the original Johto games were a big part of my childhood. I definitely feel that they had an atmosphere of mystery which I don't think the remakes managed to recreate, though that is partly because of how you nowadays can find out everything you want on the internet, as green_typhlosion said. At least for us older players, I'm not sure if the children of today are able to do the same. If not, perhaps they can get the same feeling of mystery from the modern games that we older players got from the older games which we played when we were younger.

I also remember some specific things about the mysteries in G/S/C. When I was a kid, I managed so solve some of the mysteries in the games on my own, though I had two guidebooks for the Johto games (one for G/S, one for Crystal). They taught me some things I would probably not have figured out on my own, such as where and when you can find Lapras. Though I'm not sure if they featured everything in the games, I don't remember if they even featured all Pokémon or if they showed where to find Lugia/Ho-Oh. Sadly, I do no longer have either of these guidebooks in my possession, so I can't go back and check. That said, I remember that I was able to figure out how to get to the cover legends on my own (partly, at least), which is one of my best memories from G/S/C.

I also disagree with the statement that HG/SS fixed the issues with G/S/C. If anything, I feel that they made minor improvements at best, while keeping most of the flaws from the originals. Notably the level curve, the Pokémon distribution, the terrible story and the lackluster post-game. I played G/S/C before HG/SS, and I remember that when HG/SS were released, I was heavily nostalgia-blinded, thinking they would be the best games ever. But after getting them, I mostly ended up disappointed. The more I played them, the less I liked them, and the blindness caused by the nostalgia eventually wore off. In the end, I did not like HG/SS all that much. They are my least favorite Pokémon games for a good reason. In comparison, I actually like G/S/C better. They are far from perfect, but they were at least fun for their time, which I can't say about HG/SS.

I think I have stated my opinion on everything else regarding HG/SS in earlier posts in this thread, so I won't do it again.

...

This would have been a perfect opportunity to include my upcoming unpopular opinion about the Johto games, but sadly, it is still not quite ready. I have been working on it a fair bit lately though, so I should hopefully be able to post it soon.

 

[pokemon4eva]

I see the gen 2 takes rolling. Gold was my first Pokemon game, it holds many memories and playthroughs, the feel of wonder and excitement, some disappointment where I saw their limits (trainers using kanto starters made me think they were available somewhere, they weren't), but overall a fantastic experience. I consider the travel to Kanto not as postgame but as campaign part 2 but how expansive it is, postgame stuff would be the remaining legendaries, Trainer House, Battle Tower (Crystal); and I'd still say that's a fair amount of stuff, not to mention the daily events that motivate you to come back. As said before, the game has its limits, the Pokemon distribution and the open ended nature mixed with a lack of a proper level curve being the most notable. Eggs and babies were a huge deal in Johto but aside from Togepi, the crystal exclusive Egg and the tedious Tyrogue sidequest, the game doesn't showcase them properly, later games would have baby mons in the wild to train and catch like Magby, Elekid, Budew, Pichu, etc; GS should've done this instead of having wild Magmars chilling. Silver is a great step up from Blue and I like how his character comes around, the Rocket execs were so forgettable they didn't even have names back then nor were any threat whatsoever.

Now, HGSS is a good example of a remake, and not just Pokemon-wise, what a game...While it still has many of its predecessor's flaws, Silver gets more scenes and it's more likable here (even an extra dialogue where he tried giving his stolen mon back, thank you!), some areas were given a new design like the Lighthouse, Lake of Rage, Victory Road (still no trainers but it's a step up), the prev Kanto areas that weren't there before, etc. Kanto trainers and bosses were also much more properly leveled, and in general, it had a lot more content to keep replaying even after beating Red. Now, I would've liked that it had fixed the level curve in Ecruteak-Blackthorne and more Pokemon available before the postgame. There was a notable attempt though, some mons like Misdreavus or the secret Slugma egg as well as the Pokewalker, but then why locking the Dusk and Dawn stones behind postgame? (Togekiss fans will have to wait a little longer). This is a team of my latest HG playthrough with a Pokewalker only challenge, it was an interesting roster to use, composed to Kanto mons that you can only get very late on a regular playthrough.

That's one of the points that HGSS excels that I see few people bringing it up, you get the most out of it by using the new added mechanics like the Pokewalker. Grinding for Red wasn't even necessary since the improved Kanto level curve (and a stronger E4 rematch) was enough to level up my team.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Regarding GSC/HGSS's level curve, while I agree Johto's level curve is very flawed, I think there is one big way to work with the level curve and the structure of the game as a whole. One thing I did in my latest run of HeartGold is that once I had the means to do so, I went out of my way to explore the region's caves and side dungeons. Dark Cave, Union Cave, Mt. Mortar, Whirl Islands, etc. The games ever since GSC itself have more or less taken it as a given that once you have a certain HM, you backtrack and go access locations you didn't have access to beforehand. Union Cave, for example, has the lower floors inaccessible until you get Surf. Once you get Strength, you can get to Route 46 through Dark Cave and find a few Trainers there. In both cases, not only do you find a handful of Trainers, you can also find a handful of Pokemon you wouldn't be able to find otherwise. The Trainers are all in the mid 20's roughly, and in some cases the 30's when you get Waterfall. Union Cave, Whirl Islands, and Mt. Mortar all have wild mons in the mid 20's, and given you can go to the lower floors of Union Cave and Mt. Mortar as soon as you get Surf, while the mons on the main path are all in the lower levels, this is pretty nice for grinding purposes to get EXP faster when necessary. Route 34 also has a few Ace Trainers across the lake who make for a bit of good grinding too once you get Surf.

Given the overall structure of Johto, with its shortcuts to go back to earlier routes here and there, I'm inclined to believe the region was specifically meant to be explored off the beaten path. Granted, the non-linearity is already apparent with how you can choose to go either to Mahogany and the Lake of Rage first, or to Olivine and Cianwood first, but the way many side dungeons have Trainers and Pokemon closer in level to where you will be when you can first access them, they definitely want players to go out of their way to explore every nook and cranny and rewards the player for exploring.

I think one overlooked thing HGSS does that helps with leveling a lot compared to GSC is that it allows you to get almost every Pokegear number you can get, so you can have every rematchable Trainer's number at once, and once you have eight badges and before the League you can call all of them (or they call you) for rematches, and that can help a lot with grinding levels. They level up again after beating the League, which is good grinding before you head into Kanto, and those Trainers are stronger than in GSC so they give you more experience. And there are even more rematchable Trainers in Kanto who offer that extra EXP when you call them for rematches too, and after 16 badges everyone upgrades their teams again, which also adds some sweet EXP too. Another cool thing is the Gym Leader rematches: this is one of the most praised things about HGSS, but it's not only incredibly fun to rematch Gym Leaders, it's also a great source of grinding, especially in tandem with the upgraded Elite Four rematch teams. This means getting to the right levels for Red is even easier than ever with so many new sources of grinding EXP to gain levels.

Granted, there is one problem which is that you have to wait until a certain time of day and a certain day of the week to rematch certain batches of Trainers (or manipulate the system clock accordingly), which makes this less convenient than DPP's Vs. Seeker, but I think it offers a very good source of grinding experience all the same, and using it as a source of grinding is not only fun but helps with EXP gain all that much more easily.

And lastly, Silver’s personality is explained by the abusive relationship between him and Giovanni in HGSS, something that isn’t addressed in Blue and Bede.

It's worth noting that in HGSS it's also revealed through an event cutscene that Silver is actively trying to differentiate himself from his father after being disappointed in his decision to leave and his claims that he will form an even bigger Team Rocket, and how he relies on the potential of his posse of Grunts. Granted, this is only in a special Celebi event, but it's notable. Silver is clearly shown to be angered that Giovanni relies so much on having a big organization of Grunts to feel "powerful", while supposedly being a weak man on his own, and from there he expresses that he wants to be nothing like Giovanni, who derives his strength not from himself but from having a large gang of Grunts to do his bidding, and he wants to be strong all on his own terms.

His obsession with pursuing strength and dislike for the weak stems from that, and he's so fixated on his Pokemon being "strong" and picking the best of the best Pokemon, trying to become a strong Trainer on his own terms, but initially he falls into the trap that his father does, in that he doesn't treat his Pokemon well in doing so, just like how Giovanni basically just uses his team for his own gain. Silver learning how to become kinder and more caring towards his Pokemon, and accepting them as his friends and partners, not only allows him to truly achieve better strength, but is what ultimately does separate him from Giovanni and allow him to become strong on his own, and not like Giovanni who straight up just uses his team and his Pokemon without caring that much about them, seeing them as merely tools for his own benefit.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

IMO the easy way to have fixed the level curve in HGSS would have been to force the player to complete the Cianwood City SecretPotion quest - and the gym too - as a condition of going to Mahogany Town (or at the very least meeting Lance at the Lake of Rage). This would have ensured Pryce's levels would have been higher (his team is on par with Chuck's; HGSS boosted him but he's still weaker overall than Jasmine).

Doing this would have been incredibly easy; we all know how much Pokemon loves its broken bridges. You could have blocked the gate leading east from Ecruteak with sightseers eager to get to the LoR and see the rumoured Gyarados rampage. Hell, you could even have forced the player to go to the Safari Zone west of Cianwood after it opens up once you've beaten Chuck to find the medicine guy and make him return to his shop.

But that would detract from the exploratory non-linear feel the originals had, and I also feel like they didn't want to muck with the original storyline too much. Which is a pity as I genuinely feel this would have strengthened the plot overall, while also allowing the designers to bump up the levels of Pryce, Clair, the Rockets in the Radio Tower, etc. The remakes just kind of flippantly go "oh yeah the Safari Zone is there, you can go check it out... if you want to, I guess". And for all that they're pretty and have a wonderful musical accompaniment Route 47 and 48 end up being kind of forgettable as a result.

 

[Siggu]

IMO the easy way to have fixed the level curve in HGSS would have been to force the player to complete the Cianwood City SecretPotion quest - and the gym too - as a condition of going to Mahogany Town (or at the very least meeting Lance at the Lake of Rage). This would have ensured Pryce's levels would have been higher (his team is on par with Chuck's; HGSS boosted him but he's still weaker overall than Jasmine).

I'd say the intended route is that you first battle Pryce (as it's the closest body of water), then you head to Cianwood, then Olivine, and then you deal with Team Rocket.

But, from what I understand (and my own experience), no one ever does that.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I'd say the intended route is that you first battle Pryce (as it's the closest body of water), then you head to Cianwood, then Olivine, and then you deal with Team Rocket.

But, from what I understand (and my own experience), no one ever does that.

I mean, I'm going by the official badge numbering, in which Chuck is 5, Jasmine 6, and Pryce 7. But as they can be fought in any order all ways are viable/valid.

Funnily enough the reverse is true in RBY where you can do the gyms in nearly any order you like (albeit you must beat Misty to access Surge and you must beat Koga to access Blaine), but the levels of the Gym Leaders plainly spell out the order they're meant to be fought in.

 

[lucariomaster2]

Unpopular opinion, though one that might be more sympathetic here on Smogon: I really, really like Pokemon Battle Revolution. I understand why it did poorly; however, it caters exclusively to one type of player - the competitive battler - and I happen to be that type. Besides the animations being gorgeous (somewhat infamously, now, thanks to Sword/Shield) and the announcer being, well, the announcer, the postgame facilities are actually an incredible challenge. They force you to not only have properly EV'd/IV'd Pokemon, but to actually teambuild as well, a feat that I think is only matched by XD's Orre Colosseum which uses the still-somewhat-clunky ADV mechanics. It also used the battle format of bring-6-pick-4 with team preview (also introduced in XD), which of course is now the standard for Game Freak's official competitive format.

 

[jordanthejq12]

Unpopular opinion, though one that might be more sympathetic here on Smogon: I really, really like Pokemon Battle Revolution. I understand why it did poorly; however, it caters exclusively to one type of player - the competitive battler - and I happen to be that type. Besides the animations being gorgeous (somewhat infamously, now, thanks to Sword/Shield) and the announcer being, well, the announcer, the postgame facilities are actually an incredible challenge. They force you to not only have properly EV'd/IV'd Pokemon, but to actually teambuild as well, a feat that I think is only matched by XD's Orre Colosseum which uses the still-somewhat-clunky ADV mechanics. It also used the battle format of bring-6-pick-4 with team preview (also introduced in XD), which of course is now the standard for Game Freak's official competitive format.

I think this is the first genuine defense of PBR I've seen, as opposed to the reactionary "re-evaluation" PBR received during the SwSh prerelease.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Anyone feel like a lot of Gen 2 mons don't really....follow up design wise to Gen 1 mons?

I feel that was on purpose. With Gen I generally going for more "realistic" designs, for Gen II they did some more "fantastic" designs; probably out of a feeling they need to have something about the new Pokemon to stand them out when next to the previous mons.

• Sentret isn't just a ferret, it's a ferret that acts like a watchtower by standing on its tail.
• Hoothoot isn't just an owl, it's an owl that stands on one foot all the time.
• Ledyba isn't just a ladybug, it's a ladybug that's wearing gloves & evolves into an alien superhero.
• Spinarak isn't just a spider, it's a spider with a frowny face that evolves into a spider who's font looks like its back.
• Natu isn't just a bird, it's also a totem pole.
• Mareep isn't just a sheep, it's a lighthouse.
• Sudowoodo isn't a Grass-type, it's a Rock-type pretending to be a Grass-type.
• Aipom isn't just a monkey, it's a monkey with a hand on its tail.
• Murkrow isn't just a crow, it's also a witch/part of organized crime.
• Girfaraig isn't just a giraffe, its got a second head growing from it's tail.
• Gligar isn't a scorpion, it's a flying scorpion.
• Remoraid isn't just a fish, it's also a gun.
• etc., etc.

 

[Mova]

I also liked how Johto-native Pokémon had a friendlier look to them, something that wasn't fully established until Hoenn.

 

[Suspicious Derivative]

That's one of the points that HGSS excels that I see few people bringing it up, you get the most out of it by using the new added mechanics like the Pokewalker. Grinding for Red wasn't even necessary since the improved Kanto level curve (and a stronger E4 rematch) was enough to level up my team.

I never used the Pokéwalker all that much when I played HG/SS (only for around a week for SoulSilver back when the game was still new). I think it was a cool idea with a poor execution, like far too much else in the Johto games. I thought it was too inconvenient to send Pokémon from my game to the Pokéwalker so I lost interest in using it pretty quickly.

Either way, I remember back from when I played HG/SS, my teams had barely reached level 60 when I had beaten all Gyms and regular trainers in Kanto. And this was even if I had grinded my teams to level 50 before taking on the E4 the first time. Though I should mention that I did not rebattle any trainers through the PokéGear since I found the whole method to be very badly executed. I could never bother with giving the E4 rematches or Red a chance with my in-game teams either since my teams were at too low levels and I had no motivation to grind them to higher levels because of the bad training spots. Though I should mention that I was very burnt out on Pokémon at the time, which was also a contributing factor.

Regarding GSC/HGSS's level curve, while I agree Johto's level curve is very flawed, I think there is one big way to work with the level curve and the structure of the game as a whole. One thing I did in my latest run of HeartGold is that once I had the means to do so, I went out of my way to explore the region's caves and side dungeons. Dark Cave, Union Cave, Mt. Mortar, Whirl Islands, etc. The games ever since GSC itself have more or less taken it as a given that once you have a certain HM, you backtrack and go access locations you didn't have access to beforehand. Union Cave, for example, has the lower floors inaccessible until you get Surf. Once you get Strength, you can get to Route 46 through Dark Cave and find a few Trainers there. In both cases, not only do you find a handful of Trainers, you can also find a handful of Pokemon you wouldn't be able to find otherwise. The Trainers are all in the mid 20's roughly, and in some cases the 30's when you get Waterfall. Union Cave, Whirl Islands, and Mt. Mortar all have wild mons in the mid 20's, and given you can go to the lower floors of Union Cave and Mt. Mortar as soon as you get Surf, while the mons on the main path are all in the lower levels, this is pretty nice for grinding purposes to get EXP faster when necessary. Route 34 also has a few Ace Trainers across the lake who make for a bit of good grinding too once you get Surf.

I did the same thing when I played HG/SS and I still had to grind a lot against wild Pokémon, notably before the E4. Though I should note that I played both games with a full team of 6, which might have required more training than if I had used less than 6 Pokémon. But at the same time, I did not have that much of a problem grinding in most other games where I also played with full teams of 6 Pokémon (except for in Sword where I used 15 Pokémon during the main game, this was to avoid being overleveled because of the mandatory Exp. Share). So I think this is mostly a fault with the Johto games themselves due to their bad level curve and lack of good training spots. Doing everything in the optional areas never really helped me all that much.

I think one overlooked thing HGSS does that helps with leveling a lot compared to GSC is that it allows you to get almost every Pokegear number you can get, so you can have every rematchable Trainer's number at once, and once you have eight badges and before the League you can call all of them (or they call you) for rematches, and that can help a lot with grinding levels. They level up again after beating the League, which is good grinding before you head into Kanto, and those Trainers are stronger than in GSC so they give you more experience. And there are even more rematchable Trainers in Kanto who offer that extra EXP when you call them for rematches too, and after 16 badges everyone upgrades their teams again, which also adds some sweet EXP too. Another cool thing is the Gym Leader rematches: this is one of the most praised things about HGSS, but it's not only incredibly fun to rematch Gym Leaders, it's also a great source of grinding, especially in tandem with the upgraded Elite Four rematch teams. This means getting to the right levels for Red is even easier than ever with so many new sources of grinding EXP to gain levels.

Granted, there is one problem which is that you have to wait until a certain time of day and a certain day of the week to rematch certain batches of Trainers (or manipulate the system clock accordingly), which makes this less convenient than DPP's Vs. Seeker, but I think it offers a very good source of grinding experience all the same, and using it as a source of grinding is not only fun but helps with EXP gain all that much more easily.

I so wish I could like this system, but it is just too badly executed for my tastes. The only way I could get it to work was by writing down a list of all trainers that could be rebattled, their location, and when they could be rebattled, then print this list and have it by my side when I played. But even so, it was still extremely annoying to use. The Gym Leaders being tied to the same system wasn't very fun either. But at the same time, I don't think any Pokémon game so far have gotten a perfect execution of Gym Leader rematches, they could all have done it better IMO.

Apart from that, the only other way I got the level curve and training spots in HG/SS to work was through trading over Pokémon from other games to let them get boosted Exp. When I played through my second copy of HeartGold, I used a team of three, two of which were from a different game. With that team, I didn't have to grind at all and was at level 50 without issues when I got to the E4. Though I am pretty sure I explored most optional areas during that playthrough. During the post-game of my main files, I used new teams of three Pokémon on each game (my training squads, as I have named them) when I decided to go back and finally try to complete the Pokédex in 2015. As for these Pokémon, I had previously trained them to level 70 on Platinum before I traded over them to HG/SS. Once I had completed the Pokédex, they were all close to level 90 thanks to all the grinding they had gotten as a bonus along the way. So that's how I got it to work. In the end, I found it to be much more annoying to train Pokémon on HG/SS than in any other Pokémon games to date.

I'm not sure if experience groups really matter, but for reference, here are the Pokémon I used:

In-game teams:
SoulSilver:
HeartGold:

Post-game training squads:
SoulSilver:
HeartGold:

And I really wanted to include them somewhere just for fun.

Ultimately, I guess we have different experiences with HG/SS and how we played them, which is one of the reasons as for why we have different opinions on them.

Sorry for the somewhat late replies, but I wanted to try to let this discussion continue a bit further.

I also liked how Johto-native Pokémon had a friendlier look to them, something that wasn't fully established until Hoenn.

This is a very interesting point. I have never really thought about this before, but now that I do, I realize that you are completely right. The Gen 1 Pokémon do for the most part not look very friendly. Especially not in early art and sprites, newer art and sprites made them look a bit more friendly. In comparison, the Pokémon from Gen 2 and especially from Gen 3 and on generally look a lot more friendly. Even when it comes to the Pokémon from Gen 2-8 that don't look friendly, they still look a lot more appealing compared to the unfriendly Pokémon from Gen 1. That's my opinion at least. I guess this is yet another reason as for why Gen 1 has my least favorite designs on the whole, many of the Gen 1 Pokémon do just not look friendly enough for my tastes.

 

[Bakugames]

Maybe this makes no sense, but gen 1 pokemon felt more like random rpg enemies than pokemon to me

 

[ThatOneSpork]

Maybe this makes no sense, but gen 1 pokemon felt more like random rpg enemies than pokemon to me

I can somewhat understand this with things like Oddish, Bellsprout, Wurmple, Cubone, etc. Quite a few of them seem like something you would find in an RPG, but I do feel like a lot of them don't feel like one. Stuff like Growlithe feels like they wouldn't be found as an enemy. I can definitely see what you mean, just don't agree with every gen 1 mon seeming like a random RPG enemy.

 

[pokemon4eva]

I'd say the intended route is that you first battle Pryce (as it's the closest body of water), then you head to Cianwood, then Olivine, and then you deal with Team Rocket.

But, from what I understand (and my own experience), no one ever does that.

Level wise, it's baffling that 7th gym leader is weaker than the 6th. Many people prefer going west of Ecruteak, myself included, in order to get Fly as soon as possible. GSC/HGSS has plenty of daily events and I find Fly much more helpful.

Unpopular opinion, though one that might be more sympathetic here on Smogon: I really, really like Pokemon Battle Revolution. I understand why it did poorly; however, it caters exclusively to one type of player - the competitive battler - and I happen to be that type. Besides the animations being gorgeous (somewhat infamously, now, thanks to Sword/Shield) and the announcer being, well, the announcer, the postgame facilities are actually an incredible challenge. They force you to not only have properly EV'd/IV'd Pokemon, but to actually teambuild as well, a feat that I think is only matched by XD's Orre Colosseum which uses the still-somewhat-clunky ADV mechanics. It also used the battle format of bring-6-pick-4 with team preview (also introduced in XD), which of course is now the standard for Game Freak's official competitive format.

The challenge aspect has always been the biggest highlight of Revolution for me. It is less casual friendly and practically demands you to play with a DS AND know the ins and outs of teambuilding and competitive battling in order to get the most enjoyment out of it, while the Stadium games and Shadow games offer more thanks to the rental options and minigames of the former, and campaigns of the latter. I consider Revolution inferior to those because of that (also wifi connection at the time was way worse), but I really had a blast when I brought a "totally legit" well trained team to beat the Master Battles.

 

[Scorpio]

Maybe this makes no sense, but gen 1 pokemon felt more like random rpg enemies than pokemon to me

That’s because they were at least partially designed as such; when Pokémon was still Capumon it was more akin to a ‘standard’ RPG, plus Dragon Quest (aka one of the quintessential standard RPG franchises, at least in Japan) was a major influence on the games.

 

[lucariomaster2]

The challenge aspect has always been the biggest highlight of Revolution for me. It is less casual friendly and practically demands you to play with a DS AND know the ins and outs of teambuilding and competitive battling in order to get the most enjoyment out of it, while the Stadium games and Shadow games offer more thanks to the rental options and minigames of the former, and campaigns of the latter. I consider Revolution inferior to those because of that (also wifi connection at the time was way worse), but I really had a blast when I brought a "totally legit" well trained team to beat the Master Battles.

That's the thing about it, and exactly what I was talking about when I said I understand why it didn't do well - it's appealing to competitive battlers like us, but that's only a tiny percentage of the fanbase. Everyone else, on the other hand? PBR lacks both the minigames of Stadium and the story of Colo/XD.

That said, tearing through the Masters sets with a competitive team after being stuck on them all throughout my childhood was an absolute joy.

 

[Queenzz]

^ is why I don't understand why people think GSC/HGSS are the best games. They're fun, but all the good pokemon are either Kanto or EXTREMELY rare.

hard agree, games are my favorite but replaying them and trying to not use the same 7/8 mons every play through leaves you with almost nothing

 

[PokemonCrusader]

On the topic of Gen 2 and their remakes, I do agree with a lot of points said about their flaws, like how they poorly show off Pokémon and how bad the levels of wild Pokémon are in general are especially in the post game. I played HGSS before I played GS before I go into my post.

Kanto in Gen 2: I actually disagree saying that Kanto harmed Johto. I liked being able to travel Kanto and get all the gym badges in any fashion you want, it provides a sense of openness that no other game has tried to do. But my main reason why I like is the cultural contrast between the two regions. As someone who loves Art History, I love looking at artwork between of different People and how they used art to show off culture and I think Kanto and Johto show off that very well. When you look at Kanto, it’s 100% modern. No ruins, temples, legends, or myths of any kind, the only region to be like that in any Pokémon game. This is referenced by its Pokémon as well, with Porygon being the first artificial Pokémon, Eevee having an unstable genetic code that allows multiple evolutions, Fossils can be resurrected from labs, and even the Legendary Pokémon don’t have any lore: The Legendary Birds are merely stated to be rare Pokémon, and Mewtwo was created from Mew through its DNA. Cities like Saffron are huge modern Metropolises, while Pewter has a museum dedicated to science. Johto on the other hand, pays close attention to traditional rituals passed down through the years. Ecruteak honors old form of dance through a theatre, Pokeballs are created through hand instead of factories like in Kanto, and there are no fossils in Johto because the region does not respect new technology. The legendary Pokémon also reflect the lore as well. The Legendary Beasts were created from Ho-oh after lightning struck the two towers, causing Ho-oh and Lugia, guardians of the towers to flee. The towers remain untouched has a reminder of the past. Celebii is said to punish children by taking them through time.These are nice details that you are supposed to put to notice after playing the Johto games to show off the region.

Silver: Definitely my favorite of all the “ Jerk “ Rivals. I feel like Silver is less of a criminal and more of someone who need a warm hug. In all seriousness, I find Silver a lot more interesting because he’s less of a snob compared to Blue and Bede ( The only rivals I consider jerks ). Unlike Blue, who doesn’t change at all even when you beat him ( In the Sevii Islands he is still saying “ Smell you later “. ) while Bede just vanishes during the half of the story and makes a random appearance in the Climax as a gym leader. While Silver does do a lot behind the screens, he also shows the most change between the two, becoming different person in the end of the Johto games. And lastly, Silver’s personality is explained by the abusive relationship between him and Giovanni in HGSS, something that isn’t addressed in Blue and Bede. In HGSS, he even lets his starter follow him. That being said, most of Silver’s growth was explained in the remakes, not the original, so understandable why you may not like Silver.

Type Distrubution: I’m playing through the virtual console version of Silver, and OMG, I never realized how bad type distribution is.You thought DP had terrible Fire type distribution? Well GS, has it just as bad. No Fire Stone available means that Flareon, Arcanine, and Ninetales are unavailable until Kanto, while Entei is roaming legendary Pokémon who is incredibly difficult to catch. This leaves Magmar as your only option for a Fire type in the wild. Umbreon is the only Dark type available until the post game, and most Steel types are also quite rare, with Scizor and Steelix being unavailable. And they only introduced only one Ghost and Dragon type in Gen 2, despite being the rarest types in Gen 1. Thankfully, Crystal and HGSS fix these issues by allowing stones to be obtained before Kanto and letting lines like Houndour and Misdreavus be obtainable before Kanto giving more diversity.

Personally, I’d say Gen 2 is completely obsolete by HGSS.Most of the flaws that plague the original Johto games are more or less fixed in the remakes, the same way how Platinum fixed DP.

No, the mortal wounds weren't fixed, They put a band-aid on a grapeshot wound and didn't disinfect anything. It is like dabbing frosting (Following Pokemon) on a stale cake. It distracts for a few bites but nothing can hide the staleness that repeated bites provide.

HGSS didn't fix the awful Pokemon distribution, the lack of Johto Pokemon in the Johto Gym Leaders rosters, the terrible level curve, the lack of good training spots, an empty Kanto, and the lackluster TR plot. Johto Pokemon still felt like an overthought in their own region (provided they even appeared there).

 

[Bakugames]

Dunsparce doesnt need an evo. Its perfect the way it is :)

 

[DreamPrince]

On the topic of Johto and Kanto's role in the games, in Tamashii Hiroka's retro review of Gen 2, where she defends Gen 2 from all the criticisms we give it, including Joe Merrick, who openly claimed Gen 2 is the worst for the reasons mentioned above. In her review, she notes the early staff of GF including Ken Sugimori and Satoshi Tajiri were inspired heavily by DragonQuest games, and Kanto and John were designed in a similar fashion to DragonQuest games. Actually, Sugimori's artwork of Gen 1 and 2 Pokemon are done in a similar style to Toriyama's work.

Comparison

As you can see, they both have a very watercolor feel to them. On the topic of Kanto in Gen 2, Tamashii notes that GS was designed to be similar to DragonQuest game, hence why the non-linear direction for Kanto. In fact, post game-Kanto is very similar DQ11S is post game. In the DQ11S, you get to explore the entire continent again, and each town and dungeon has a new activity going for it, including a boss, who is usually just a more powerful version of the one fought in the storyline. In the end, it results in a final showdown with the Ultimate boss. Doesn't that sound familiar to the post game of GS? That's probably why the postgame of Kanto lacks a proper level curve, you are supposed to prepare in any order you'd like for the final boss.

And lastly, I never found the level curve of John to be an issue. When playing through Soulsilver for the first time, I remember my team being evenly leveled throughout the adventure throughout both Kanto and Sinnoh. Compared to the original Silver which I am playing on virtual console, HGSS did massive improvements to GS to the point that I consider them obsolete. One of them being updating the levels for the gym laeders, especially the Kanto ones. One thing to note I played the remakes before the originals, which explain my more positive note. I probably will do a post later on explaining everything I like about HGSS in a future post.

 

[Rapti]

I never understood what the appeal of Marnie was.

She's very bland yes, that said this

Waifu.

is just disturbing

she's like eleven

do not equate eleven year olds with masturbation aids, no, not even the fictional ones, I can't believe I even need to say this

 

[Imperial Magala]

She's very bland yes, that said this


is just disturbing

she's like eleven

do not equate eleven year olds with masturbation aids, no, not even the fictional ones, I can't believe I even need to say this

I don’t like Marnie being considered a waifu either, but I swear 99% of her popularity is from people finding her cute. If the second collection focused on the rest of her team, her relationship with Piers, or her being a Gym Leader, I wouldn’t’ be suspicious, but it’s instead her trying to act more cute.

 

[Rapti]

I don’t like Marnie being considered a waifu either, but I swear 99% of her popularity is from people finding her cute. If the second collection focused on the rest of her team, her relationship with Piers, or her being a Gym Leader, I wouldn’t’ be suspicious, but it’s instead her trying to act more cute.

Ah, yes

this may be as old a Go Nagai but I personally blame Ken Akamatsu for plunging japanese cartoons into the frankly horrible depths in which the industry finds itself in (they're making anime about how great it would be to have sex slaves sex slaves!)

and you'd think that when chinese cartoons inevitably replace their now clearly in decline japanese counterparts the chinese communist party would at least prevent this from happening again but that's not what's gonna happen will it Tencent?

anyway POKEMON

you'd think that when Masamitsu Hidaka said that "they like to switch up the girls because it gives the boys some new eye candy every once in a while" he must be clearly joking
because a writer of a literal children's cartoon couldn't possibly be serious about sexualizing literal children right?

WHY? just...

look

I like animation and comics, I've seen animation and comics from, if not all over the world, a few different countries; the medium in and of itself has huge potential in stories that can't be told otherwise either feasibly or at all
but this shit right here? that's not normal! you don't see this in Tintin or in Mortadelo & Filemon or in the Yellow Woodpecker Farm or in the Moomins or in Hijitus or in the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
you don't see this in el Chavo or in Chip & Charlie or in Miraculous or in Steven Universe

and don't bring stuff like Barbarella or Cybersix up, those are explicitly for adults and we are talking about Pokemon here
and yes japanese cartoons like the Knight Ramune series are much worse about sexualizing underage girls while still being intended for children but that's not exactly an excuse now is it?


so in conclusion, yes, your first statement was probably right but that doesn't mean we shouldn't condemn it
(oh and just to be clear this isn't an indictment on Imperial Magala or anything like that
is a statement on how we shouldn't tolerate people sexualizing children, fictional depictions or not, we don't tolerate Scrub Me Mama With a Boogie Beat now do we?)

 

[Pikachu315111]

Dunsparce doesnt need an evo. Its perfect the way it is :)

Yeah, but the suggestion of it becoming a Feathered Serpent is too good of an idea to pass up. Maybe a Regional Variant? Base Dunsparce remain as is and get a new Dunsparce which evolves.

is just disturbing

she's like eleven

do not equate eleven year olds with masturbation aids, no, not even the fictional ones, I can't believe I even need to say this

Agreed, but you know the otaku culture has this problem. It's not new with Pokemon but GF sadly plays into it. In addition to the above example with Serena, have you forgotten about Lillie so quickly? Or how about Mallow and Lana who they made a bit too obvious with their waifu teasing in SM (Lana talking about wanting to meet a handsome swimmer, the mini-game with Mallow has you looking at her crotch while making a gooey drink) they had to backup their characterizations up in USUM. Going back to XY, we also had Shauna who, notably if you played as the boy, during the Parfum Palace sequence watching the fireworks she mentions this is the first time she's been alone with a boy. Heck, going back to Gen I we've had Misty often made to be a pin-up girl in several media.

and you'd think that when chinese cartoons inevitably replace their now clearly in decline japanese counterparts the chinese communist party would at least prevent this from happening again but that's not what's gonna happen will it Tencent?

... I'm sorry, that paragraph gave me whiplash. Where did THAT come from?!

because a writer of a literal children's cartoon couldn't possibly be serious about sexualizing literal children right?

WHY? just...

Pfft, softcore, I see your Serena dressing up as a Fennekin and raise you:

Dawn dressed as a maid

Though it did give us the funny scene of Ash in a maid outfit.

May dressed as a belly dancer

Misty in a bikini

And note this isn't the only time and only bikini she has, and let's not even discuss what they had her wearing in the Electric Tales of Pikachu manga...

 

[Worldie]

Mfw mentions of bikini and not mentioning the best scene ever of the anime with James wearing one and putting both Misty and Jesse to shame.