Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations

bit of a nitpick here, but Zapdos actually does have Pluck in its wild Wormhole moveset. For some reason, several wormhole legendaries’ movesets aren’t simply their last four level up moves. Why this is the case is another question entirely.
Zapdos has had Pluck as a level-up move since the move's debut in Gen IV.
 
Nah, that's a partying kappa
technically both Golduck and the Lotad line are based on Kappas, but the latter is way more obvious with it, while the former is more like a real animal
Show me a platypus that's not furry and then we'll talk

also, platypi are well known for looking like a bizarre combination of different animals, what duck billed pokemon is more of a bizarre combination of different elements than Ludicolo?
 

Pikachu315111

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also, platypi are well known for looking like a bizarre combination of different animals, what duck billed pokemon is more of a bizarre combination of different elements than Ludicolo?
One thing does not mean the other. So just because Ludicolo is a combination of things and has a duckbill that makes it a platypus? Aside from the duckbill another notable trait of a platypus is it having a beaver tail and clawed webbed feet (we won't go into males having poison spurs or their bills sensing electrical fields...). Ludicolo has neither of these things: it has no tail and its hands & legs look more like plant stems than clawed webbed feet.
 
Ludicolo is still more of a platypus than Golduck ever was

you'll see when they suddenly give it a poison piercing move as a signature attack
you'll see
YOU'LL ALL SEE

*laughs maniacally*
Isn't it only male platypi that get the venom spine? So that would correspond to a poison-type split evolution more than just a move added.
 
People think Ludicolo is a platypus because they grew up watching Phineas and Ferb, and connect Ludicolo's hat with Perry the Platypus'; change my mind.
LUDICOLO THE- oh wait, that's not a platypus... Anyways.

:ss/nidoqueen: :ss/nidoking: :ss/moltres: :ss/garchomp: :ss/rhyperior: :ss/stunfisk: :ss/runerigus:
Guess what all of these Pokemon have in common? Can't guess? Well, it's that they can all learn RAIN DANCE. WHY?! I mean, there are some logical explanations like Garchomp having shark fins and stuff, but it makes absolutely no sense for Moltres, Rhyperior, and a ton of other unnecessary Pokemon to actually learn it!! These are just only a few of the Pokemon that can learn this move by TM - there are a LOT more Pokemon that actually learn Rain Dance than you think. If you look at this list of Pokemon that can learn Rain Dance by TM, you'll understand that the learnset of this move should be VERY LESS LIKELY THAN YOU THINK.
 
Keep in mind the idea behind Bulldoze is that the user is stomping on the ground very hard to cause the ground to shuffle (and likely have pieces uplift and hit the target). So with that in mind Aerodactyl has feet and is likely heavy enough so just lands and starts stomping around.

No, the Pokemon which I question getting Bulldoze is:
  • Slowpoke family, Shuckle (Do they look like angry stompers to you?)
  • Hitmonchan (Sure it has feet, but it's the punching Pokemon)
  • Gyarados, Lapras, Mantine, Milotic, Sharpedo, Relicanth (While some Pokemon I can see using their tail/long body if they don't have feet, and in some cases flippers for a few Water-types, it's these Water-types in particular I kind of have a hard time see doing any of that)
  • Swalot, Gastrodon (It's essentially piles of slime, how do they stomp? Do they jump up and down with their aBinaclemorphous body?)
  • Wailer family (Earthquake, sure. Bulldoze, I feel its a bit too large for that one (unless we're taking its lighter than air into account softening its flopping around))
  • Lunatone, Solrock, Glalie, Minior (Like, I guess they could just hover, slam down, hover back up, etc. but that sounds like an awful lot of effort)
  • Eon Duo (Similar to Hitmonlee, feels they would be more punching the ground)
  • Binacle (Barbaracle is fine as it has feet, but why also it's prevo? Does it flip itself upside down to act like a makeshift pair of legs?)
  • Phantump (Trevenent is fine, but Phantump is a ghost without legs. Does it headbang the ground?)
  • Cursola (Being its a spirit hiding inside its former body, I have a feeling whats left of its body is kind of fragile already)
What non-Ground-types gets Bulldoze via TM feels a bit random sometimes. And note there's plenty of Ground-types I question how they get Bulldoze but overlook it cause its at least a Ground-type so has earth manipulation power.
I think in most of these cases, the user is simply body slamming the ground to achieve the same effect as stomping. The same goes for pokémon that can learn Stomping Tantrum but have no feet, like Onix.
 
LUDICOLO THE- oh wait, that's not a platypus... Anyways.

:ss/nidoqueen: :ss/nidoking: :ss/moltres: :ss/garchomp: :ss/rhyperior: :ss/stunfisk: :ss/runerigus:
Guess what all of these Pokemon have in common? Can't guess? Well, it's that they can all learn RAIN DANCE. WHY?! I mean, there are some logical explanations like Garchomp having shark fins and stuff, but it makes absolutely no sense for Moltres, Rhyperior, and a ton of other unnecessary Pokemon to actually learn it!! These are just only a few of the Pokemon that can learn this move by TM - there are a LOT more Pokemon that actually learn Rain Dance than you think. If you look at this list of Pokemon that can learn Rain Dance by TM, you'll understand that the learnset of this move should be VERY LESS LIKELY THAN YOU THINK.
One of those is literally a fish...
Moltres though, now that's just suicide. Nidos and Rhyperior is due to Japanese Titan references
Not sure why Runerigious can learn it, though it might relate to its Viking origins
 

Pikachu315111

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People think Ludicolo is a platypus because they grew up watching Phineas and Ferb, and connect Ludicolo's hat with Perry the Platypus'; change my mind.
Ruby & Sapphire was released in 2002/2003, Phineas and Ferb debut 5 years later in 2007/2008.

Also, this is the first time I've ever heard any suggest Ludicolo was a platypus. I've always heard people saying Psyduck was.

Ludicolo is still more of a platypus than Golduck ever was
No, no it's not. And Golduck isn't a platypus either.

Isn't it only male platypi that get the venom spine? So that would correspond to a poison-type split evolution more than just a move added.
Or they just ignore that fact like they do with some Pokemon which real world animal counterpart has a not-so-major gender difference.

Neither Golduck or Ludicolo remind me of a Platypus tbh.
They're as much as a platypus as Dodrio is to a peacock.

Moltres though, now that's just suicide.
Rain Dance Moltres
Nature:
Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Ability: Flame Body
Item: Life Orb
Moves: Rain Dance, Hurricane, Substitute, Roost
Strategy: Summon the rain, set up a Substitute, Roost when you need healing, and otherwise make it Hurricane season!
 
Rain Dance Moltres
Nature:
Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Ability: Flame Body
Item: Life Orb
Moves: Rain Dance, Hurricane, Substitute, Roost
Strategy: Summon the rain, set up a Substitute, Roost when you need healing, and otherwise make it Hurricane season!
You joke, but there have def been gens/tiers where Moltres was common on rain teams with Fire Blast/Hurricane/HP Grass to counter grasses, waters, and also just sweep with Life Orb Hurricane. Though generally it didn't set it's own rain.
 
You joke, but there have def been gens/tiers where Moltres was common on rain teams with Fire Blast/Hurricane/HP Grass to counter grasses, waters, and also just sweep with Life Orb Hurricane. Though generally it didn't set it's own rain.
It also got Weather Ball this gen.

"Rain" moltres is surprisingly not a meme, though I suppose the only real reason it got Rain Dance is that it ties with the other 2 legendary birds in them being able to mess with weather.
 

Codraroll

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And, since we're re-re-re-re-relitigating ice punch on kyurem let us also once more exclaim: GIVE KYUREM ICICLE CRASH. There's no reason it shouldn't get that
That would make it an Ice-type with a high attacking stat AND a decently-powerful STAB move of the same category. That's a big no-no for Game Freak, apparently. You get one or the other, but not both. Lots of Ice-types get good-BP moves without the stats to use them, and many have high attacking stats but no good moves. A rare few have both, but that seems to come at the cost of an absolutely terrible Speed. At base 95 Speed, Kyurem is apparently much too fast to get good STAB.

I'm starting to think one of their senior game directors got attacked by a snowman as a kid and now wants to take revenge on the concept of snow by making the Ice-type a joke in this franchise.
 
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Weavile got it pretty good but that's all I can really say. Weavile is like the only Ice type Pokemon who's stats match the typing. Offensive and speedy. 90% of Ice types are really slow and die to any attack before they get to move, like Abomasnow. And it's Mega Evolution only made it slower too lmfao
Screen Shot 2021-08-12 at 7.14.29 AM.png
 
That would make it an Ice-type with a high attacking stat AND a decently-powerful STAB move of the same category. That's a big no-no for Game Freak, apparently. You get one or the other, but not both. Lots of Ice-types get good-BP moves without the stats to use them, and many have high attacking stats but no good moves. A rare few have both, but that seems to come at the cost of an absolutely terrible Speed. At base 95 Speed, Kyurem is apparently much too fast to get good STAB.

I'm starting to think one of their senior game directors got attacked by a snowman as a kid and now wants to take revenge on the concept of snow by making the Ice-type a joke in this franchise.
So for this, I assume you mean "high Attack stat" and not "high attacking stats (ie special and phsyical)" since just about every single ice type gets Ice Beam & Blizzard (& many of them even get freeze dry, how nice)

So with that in mind I started looking at ice types with "good" physical Attack (my baseline is 100 base attack, which does leave those in the 90s in the lurch I'll admit) and see how that shakes out for the strongest generic ice moves which wow okay i guess are just Icicle Crash and Ice Punch alright cool cool:

Darmanitan-G: 140 attack, 95 speed (goes to 160/135 in Zen Mode) gets Icicle Crash and Ice Punch.
Beartic: 130/50 (does get Swift Swim at least?) gets Icicle Crash & Ice Punch
Avalugg: 117/28 gets neither, rip. Least this one makes sense not to get Ice Punch
Glastrier: 145/30 gets Icicle Crash
Sandslash-A: 100/65 (gets Slush Rushh) gets Icicle Crash & Ice Punch
Mamoswine: 130/80 gets Icicle Crash
Weavile: 120/125 gets Ice Punch & Icicle Crash
Crabominable: 132/43 gets Ice Punch. It doesn't get Icicle Crash, but it is the only pokemon that gets Ice Hammer, which is 100 BP
Arctozolt: 100/55 gets Icicle Crash (though this at least has a flavor reason, i suppose; the "back half" is associated with all the ice moves and not the "front half" which gets thunder punch)
Calyrex Ice Rider: 165/50. Gets Icicle Crash. Also gets the signature move Glacial Lance, the 130 BP spread ice move.

And finally, Kyurem
Base Form: 130/95 gets uhhh *checks notes* mmmm *doubles checks charts* alright it literally only gets one physical ice type move and that's Icicle Spear thanks to the gen 8 TM. I really thought this thing got Ice Shard....
Black Form: 170/95. Freeze Shock the devestating 140 BP ice move that can paralyze!!!!! Takes 2 turns to use. bad.


So I'm just gonna say that the only "physical ice type" who gets really ruined here is avalugg (how doesnt this thing have icicle crash...?) and Kyurem. And Kyurem feels the far more eregious one because it's not just a legendary it's a traditionally banned legendary. Those usually get some good stuff see also Kyurem! Whose special move pool gets about every ice move it'd ever want to go with its 130/170 special attack.
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
So for this, I assume you mean "high Attack stat" and not "high attacking stats (ie special and phsyical)" since just about every single ice type gets Ice Beam & Blizzard (& many of them even get freeze dry, how nice)

So with that in mind I started looking at ice types with "good" physical Attack (my baseline is 100 base attack, which does leave those in the 90s in the lurch I'll admit) and see how that shakes out for the strongest generic ice moves which wow okay i guess are just Icicle Crash and Ice Punch alright cool cool:

Darmanitan-G: 140 attack, 95 speed (goes to 160/135 in Zen Mode) gets Icicle Crash and Ice Punch.
Beartic: 130/50 (does get Swift Swim at least?) gets Icicle Crash & Ice Punch
Avalugg: 117/28 gets neither, rip. Least this one makes sense not to get Ice Punch
Glastrier: 145/30 gets Icicle Crash
Sandslash-A: 100/65 (gets Slush Rushh) gets Icicle Crash & Ice Punch
Mamoswine: 130/80 gets Icicle Crash
Weavile: 120/125 gets Ice Punch & Icicle Crash
Crabominable: 132/43 gets Ice Punch. It doesn't get Icicle Crash, but it is the only pokemon that gets Ice Hammer, which is 100 BP
Arctozolt: 100/55 gets Icicle Crash (though this at least has a flavor reason, i suppose; the "back half" is associated with all the ice moves and not the "front half" which gets thunder punch)
Calyrex Ice Rider: 165/50. Gets Icicle Crash. Also gets the signature move Glacial Lance, the 130 BP spread ice move.

And finally, Kyurem
Base Form: 130/95 gets uhhh *checks notes* mmmm *doubles checks charts* alright it literally only gets one physical ice type move and that's Icicle Spear thanks to the gen 8 TM. I really thought this thing got Ice Shard....
Black Form: 170/95. Freeze Shock the devestating 140 BP ice move that can paralyze!!!!! Takes 2 turns to use. bad.


So I'm just gonna say that the only "physical ice type" who gets really ruined here is avalugg (how doesnt this thing have icicle crash...?) and Kyurem. And Kyurem feels the far more eregious one because it's not just a legendary it's a traditionally banned legendary. Those usually get some good stuff see also Kyurem! Whose special move pool gets about every ice move it'd ever want to go with its 130/170 special attack.
Avalugg gets Avalanche. 120BP (180 with STAB) and it's always moving last anyway; it doesn't get anything else because it would only ever use Avalance to start with.

Honestly I think Avalugg exists because the devs think Avalance and Payback are good move concepts but no one was using them. Avalugg and Avalanche even share the first half of their names.

But I think Codraroll is also right because physical Ice-Type moves suck anyway. I mean, many Pokémon forego running Ice Punch as coverage nowadays because the BP of the move is too low, in spite of Ice-Type being a great coverage type. Most Pokémon do the same or more with a neutral STAB attack as a super-effective non-STAB Ice Punch, and Icicle Crash is barely more powerful than Ice Punch at the cost of consistency. There's a reason many Ice-Type Pokémon in higher tiers run their other STAB and Ice Shard only.
 
Avalugg gets Avalanche. 120BP (180 with STAB) and it's always moving last anyway; it doesn't get anything else because it would only ever use Avalance to start with.

Honestly I think Avalugg exists because the devs think Avalance and Payback are good move concepts but no one was using them. Avalugg and Avalanche even share the first half of their names.

But I think Codraroll is also right because physical Ice-Type moves suck anyway. I mean, many Pokémon forego running Ice Punch as coverage nowadays because the BP of the move is too low, in spite of Ice-Type being a great coverage type. Most Pokémon do the same or more with a neutral STAB attack as a super-effective non-STAB Ice Punch, and Icicle Crash is barely more powerful than Ice Punch at the cost of consistency. There's a reason many Ice-Type Pokémon in higher tiers run their other STAB and Ice Shard only.
yeah physical ice moves really need a nice meaty 90-95 BP move with no downside


Honestly every time i see Icicle Crash I keep thinking it's 95 with poor accuracy, not 85. Poor typing.
 

KaenSoul

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Does anyone know why Triple Axel is mostly given to 'feminine' mons when you exclude ice-types?
Kirlia, Milotic, Lopunny, Cinccino, Primarina, Tsareena and Pheromosa get the move and outside of that there is Hitmontop because is just Ice-type Triple Kick and Gallade because Kirlia i guess.
 
Rain Dance Moltres
Nature:
Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Ability: Flame Body
Item: Life Orb
Moves: Rain Dance, Hurricane, Substitute, Roost
Strategy: Summon the rain, set up a Substitute, Roost when you need healing, and otherwise make it Hurricane season!
Life orb kinda proves my point, but huh
 

KaenSoul

FuegoAlma
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Moreover, I won't necessary say "feminine", but rather "pokemon with a good footwork". Hitmontop who's not feminine at all learn it while Gothitelle who's not doesn't.
That doesnt really explain Milotic and Primarina, and there are many other good 'kickers' like Hitmonlee and Zapdos-G. Or other stuff than learns multiple kick moves and Ice-moves.
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
Yeah I think there's four groups of Pokémon who learn Triple Axel, and where two of them overlap you can interpret it as a feminine bias but I don't think it's necessarily the case or intention:

Good at Spinning: Sandshrew-Alola; Mr. Mime-Galar; Hitmontop; Cryogonal (all learn Rapid Spin and aside from Hitmontop are Ice-Type. It fits, but could apply to more than these 4.)
Prominent Legs: Lopunny, Tsareena, Pheremosa (Can be conflated with femininity in these examples but I think it's just because all are prominent kickers. They all learn Jump Kick, for instance.)
Particularly Graceful: Ninetales-Alola, Articuno, Gardevoir, Milotic, Glaceon, Froslass, Primarina, Frosmoth (This is kinda ambiguous but essentially who would look good while using the move.)
Just Gameplay: Cinccino because Skill Link; Delibird and Weavile probably just to give them a new physical STAB as they're Ice-Type physical attackers.

Triple Axel has fairly nonsense distribution, anyway. If Cryogonal learns it, then something like Forretress should too, considering both are fairly circular Pokémon that are good at spinning, with something sharp to strike the opponent with during the spin. I guess Forretress has no way to create the Ice-Type effect, but then you get onto the Pokémon with prominent legs, where Tsareena in particular should have no ability to generate a chilling effect. The third category of "particularly graceful" is also somewhat of a bust but is the only explanation; it feels less like a this is why this Pokémon can execute this move and more like a what Pokémon would look the best doing this move. That explains fairly inexplicable choices like Milotic at least, because a Milotic spinning around would look great, similarly to Gardevoir.

But these also aren't the most feminine Pokémon out there. If they were just choosing based on femininity, then Vespiquen and Salazzle would be first in line to learn the move. There's some type of method to the madness and it kind of makes sense to me, despite not being rational lol.
 

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