Maybe he meant to say 8 PPI don't understand this as Magma Storm has 100 BP
Maybe he meant to say 8 PPI don't understand this as Magma Storm has 100 BP
My bad, but i already corrected. I wanted to say PP. Thanks btwI don't understand this as Magma Storm has 100 BP
While I do agree that most teams have adapted to hail, arctozolt alone doesn’t make the style unbearable.Don't understand Arcto being too good by this point, pretty much every team has learnt to properly adapt to its presence well and its largely with cores and pokemon many already considered great. Its def a threatening piece of the metagame but every steel but Corvi/Skarm is a fairly good check and we do have decent offensive checks in a pinch, most notably Scarfers, which i've noticed a general uptick in. Scarftana specifically has alot of potential for harassment because it forces a larger degree of prediction onto a pokemon that's already usually under a lot of stress to get every turn it can right.
CB
scarf
or +
aka sun as an archetype
depending on the structure
or +a decent ice resist
I can see an argument for Arcto forcing alot of pressure onto stall but I just don't play the playstyle much at all sooooo it's kind of not really something I can touch on. their typical structures can't really handle hail well though, bar some weird goggles shed cheese.
I'm just a pretty average ladderer so take what i say with a grain of salt, but Arcto just really doesn't strike me as something that forces me to overprep or play out of my mind to beat, usually.
I would disagree with saying Scarf Kart and Scarf Lele can be handled easily. Scarf Kart really only needs a teammate to overwhelm Corv on Ox's build (which should be a prerequisite for scarftana) because Torn is a pretty ass check alot of the time, even moreso if you have a team member that makes torn dropping its AV a pretty garbage prospect. The first hail flat out doesn't have a way to beat scarftana beyond predicting and winning first, Knock is incredibly free and could feasibly clean without too much problem. Hell, it getting in and clicking knock might as well let it set up the sweep for itself given boots kyu is the main non rocks weak way to stop that from happening.While I do agree that most teams have adapted to hail, arctozolt alone doesn’t make the style unbearable.
The 2 most common and probably the best hail teams is ox hail and tricking hail which he used during olt.
Let’s look at the cores you listed, scarf kart and scarf lele can both be easily handled with the lost of power without specs/band. Both teams have various switchins that can check those 2 reliably. Scarf blace is a major threat most definitely, but with tran on trickings team and Av torn it can be dealt with. Personally I don’t think scarf gengar and victini is worth mentioning. They r just not common enough to be taken into account. Cb tar also is not faster than arctozolt even out of hail, low kick is also an easy ohko. Hippo and Zwole both get 2hkoed by blizzard (providing you land both).
But my main point is what arctozolt and hail can do for its teammates. Volcanion, lele, kyurem, and many more really benefit from steels being gone/chipped. Some simple doubles/pivoting with the threat of arctozolt in the back can break pass many of its “supposed checks” in melmetal, zone, hippo, zwole and etc.
Some techs have been made more prevalent because of hail most notably defensive rotom-h and lighting rod alowak. Although those 2 r definitely very good counters to arctozolt, they r pretty much dead weight in most other matchups.
TLDR: While I do agree with you, many teams have adapted to the presence of hail. Hail/arctozolt is by no means no longer “very good” even with the meta shifts. Arctozolt is still very limiting in the team builder.
Sorry what? That doesnt sound like… a thing?just an anecdote here.. but I’ve played against similar teams to both of these a lot recently on ladder. Both are easily dealt with by specially defensive Kartana more than scarf Kartana.
i edited my post with a link back to one of the posts where I posted about 252 SpD / 252 Spe Kartana. Have posted quite a bit about it! Running a grass spam no magnezone that never struggles vs hail. So the empirical evidence is there.Sorry what? That doesnt sound like… a thing?
I havent played a lot of OU, but I dont think kartana can have a specially defensive variant. Its know for having paper thin special defense, unless you slap on a assault vest, its not living many special hits...just an anecdote here.. but I’ve played against similar teams to both of these a lot recently on ladder. Both are easily dealt with by specially defensive Kartana more than scarf Kartana. The first variant of the two is a simple cakewalk, as only a scarfed focus blast can revenge a healthy Kartana. I previously posted a replay against the first variant in 1900 ELO.
The second variant has the only real problem Kartana ever has to face … the tornadus therian is difficult to play around due to it being hard to chip into KO range, and you don’t really get rewarded for double switching unless you’re packing koko or weavile. And even then you’re still not really rewarded because it’s the lowest risk switch in on a non banded Kartana there is! Tornadus just U turns out of slower threats or uses knock off on Pokémon that can’t hurt it much. It also couldn’t care less about toxic or burns.
also Tapu lele will also easily dispose of both of these teams, however I’m partial to a calm mind set, as it will stand it’s ground verse everything and at worst it will put great pressure on heatran, whilst disincentivising arctozolt from switching in.
Using pressure style game flow (rather than scarf revenging) is much easier to stop a hail team than to stop a rain team for example, as all the hail mons dislike hazards and even soft attacks. You get a lot more free turns on defog, Aurora veil, u turns, etc. it’s much harder to find “free” turns on banded flip turns from barraskewda unless you’re happy to forfeit some of your offensive pressure (using slowbro, ferro, etc). if you’re against hail, you really shouldn’t be using valuable turns defogging or roosting whenever you can avoid it!
Nine tails is also the easiest weather setter to switch in on, just pack a fire type. Fire types are more useful than steel types because it’s harder for hail teams to switch into them on average. I’m pretty sure in the current meta fire types are in the discussion for top 5 most essential types to pack on a team.
in the current meta, in no particular order, it would be something along the lines of:
Ground
Flying
Steel
Fire
Fairy
fairy is probably the least likely to deserve a top 5 spot in the current meta, due to steel types surging, but not sure what it could be replaced with. Koko, Fini and Lele are all top tier threats, whilst Bulu is kinda okay as well.
fire types are important right now and can compress a lot of work! Kyurem, arctozolt and Weavile have given fire types some time to shine! Maybe that’s why I’m seeing a lot more victini in high ladder
the logic behind it is not that it acts defensively, but rather that it’s harder to knock out or knock into revenge thresholds.I havent played a lot of OU, but I dont think kartana can have a specially defensive variant. Its know for having paper thin special defense, unless you slap on a assault vest, its not living many special hits...
I don’t think magnet pull can be looked at as “uncompetitive”, as the reality is that usually that definition is reserved for things that manipulate chance, and according to the decision makers “offer no other relevant value”. An example of uncompetitive, using the implied definition, is kings rock on cloyster, which was banned.I saw some previous post and will share some thoughts -
1) Magnet Pull - I never really got why this thing was allowed in the first place. I talked about this a few months back as well and everyone replied one of 2 things - either that Zone is can only trap Steels as opposed to 17 types or Zone is shit if they don't have a steel type.
I think the 2nd point is invalidated as firstly the problem is the ability not the pokemon itself and Zone is atleast good enough to trap Steels and nowadays it has shown to be useful outside of even that by using Expert Belt sets to pressure fairies and Blissey teams, using Air Balloon to Trap Exca and Melly, using Lefties to cheat against physical offense teams with body press etc. Zone being bad and therefore it's trapping be justified is not an argument.
The first point is the one that people just throw out and don't want any rebuttals to. I had written an entire in battle scenario of Zone and friends vs Corvi and how Corvi is so pressurized that the principal is same as Dugtrio vs Pex. The effect is that same as that the metal bird can't counter what it needs to and every turn for it becomes a 50/50 that is completely favoured in the Zone user's benefit. But nobody gives a rebuttal to it and just bring back the 17 types vs 1 type argument.
I genuinely believe that this is case where people know that Magnet Pull is uncompetitive but they want to keep it regardless and take undue advantage of it being in a majority be it because they don't want to change Magnet Pull not being OU after 5 Gens or maybe they hate facing Ferro and Corvi that much.
Believe me, I am not salty about this. I honestly don't care. I have started using Zone myself.
It's better to use the broken tools available to gain every advantage possible than to complain about removing them.
this is simple, if your counter isn’t beating what it needs to. Consider updating the team to rely less on that one Pokémon to counter the threat, or otherwise play the game against a Magnezone with the trap being in mind from turn 1. Usually it’s a combination of the two. I have never found Ferrothorn bad because of a magnezone, usually it’s weakness is fire attacks. Corviknight rarely finds magnezone a true problem, it’s usually high pressure offense built to deal with it.The effect is that same as that the metal bird can't counter what it needs to and every turn for it becomes a 50/50 that is completely favoured in the Zone user's benefit. But nobody gives a rebuttal to it and just bring back the 17 types vs 1 type argument.
I have started using Zone myself. It's better to use the broken tools available to gain every advantage possible than to complain about removing them
That’s awesome!! Keep using it, it helps provide some evidence that magnezone is too good if you can demonstrably show that it improved your performance dramatically and left opponents with little chance to win!! You’ll quickly find magnezone is no cinderace , Zygarde or magearna.
Jolly kartana doesn't boost speedslight like nitpick: i wouldn't describe this set as "specially defensive", i would define it as "timid" or "speed boosting"
Magnet Pull definitely is arguably a bad influence on the metagame/overcentralizing, as it+grass type is pretty hard to check over a game.
Bro, I highly encourage you to check your facts before trying to correct someone else. That RNG thing is one example of what is considered uncompetitive, not the entire scope of it. Look at literally any Trapping Ability suspect and they call it uncompetitive, why? because switching is a fundamental part of singles and it is not far from saying that singles is built on the principle of switching. One party being able to prevent the opposition from doing one of the very basic move in Mons, that is exactly the what being "Uncompetitive" is. Literally nobody ever said Magnet Pull is "Too Much for OU".I don’t think magnet pull can be looked at as “uncompetitive”, as the reality is that usually that definition is reserved for things that manipulate chance, and according to the decision makers “offer no other relevant value”. An example of uncompetitive, using the implied definition, is kings rock on cloyster, which was banned.
Magnet pull being ”too good for OU” on the other hand, is a different topic.
First things first, I always find it so funny when people add their own pointers and COUNTER them on their own to strengthen their argument. I never said "Ferro is Bad", and I never even mentioned Rilla in these posts.this is simple, if your counter isn’t beating what it needs to. Consider updating the team to rely less on that one Pokémon to counter the threat, or otherwise play the game against a Magnezone with the trap being in mind from turn 1. Usually it’s a combination of the two. I have never found Ferrothorn bad because of a magnezone, usually it’s weakness is fire attacks. Corviknight rarely finds magnezone a true problem, it’s usually high pressure offense built to deal with it.
if magnet pull is too good for OU, ban it. It doesn’t seem like it is, as it’s best user isn’t necessarily overbearing. Just try running a different team architecture if zone is a problem. Corviknight isn’t a “hard” counter to Rillaboom and friends. It’s usually a check that can get momentum and defog, this is assuming you’re running it’s standard defog set of course. If you want a harder counter try or most flying types that resist fighting and run super effective moves, like , and
Sire, I humbly apologize for putting a small anecdote after an actual argument (Hey that's unintentional 5 word alliteration). I am truly ashamed that you had the misfortune of having to look at that, that monstrosity of a post while everything you wrote was so insightful and knowledgeable.That’s awesome!! Keep using it, it helps provide some evidence that magnezone is too good if you can demonstrably show that it improved your performance dramatically and left opponents with little chance to win!! You’ll quickly find magnezone is no cinderace , Zygarde or magearna.
lol im blind mbJolly kartana doesn't boost speed
It's worth noting that "hey if we ban x, y is too good/broken/bad influence" is not a valid argument in this case- broken checks broken is something that is often brought up in similar discussions, and it's considered as like, not a good point. The only thing we're concerned about is is magnet pull broken/uncompetitive/whatever else, not if we ban it will other stuff become broken. We just ban corv after if we have an issue w itOn the Magnet Pull discussion, I think simply put Corviknight in a magnet pull-less meta is just near unpunishable and almost too good to not put on every other team. Momentum, removal, an answer to grounds, grasses, weavile and bisharp, lele and most melmetals all in one untrappable slot. Its ability to check so much is only hindered by the fact that u have to consider "what if X mon I'm checking is paired with Zone", and even then, the zone has to play around obnoxious shed shell sets and the now slowly increasing usage of the 241 timid Corv.
"None of this should be any new info, but I am trying to point out that unlike previous trapping abilities or even currently existing things like Heatran's magma storm, Magnet Pull isn't exactly the free take-a-mon-out card you expect it to be, and teching against it isn't that much of a hassle for a lot of these mons (bar maybe Ferro)."It's worth noting that "hey if we ban x, y is too good/broken/bad influence" is not a valid argument in this case- broken checks broken is something that is often brought up in similar discussions, and it's considered as like, not a good point. The only thing we're concerned about is is magnet pull broken/uncompetitive/whatever else, not if we ban it will other stuff become broken. We just ban corv after if we have an issue w it
It's also worth noting that the post also put heavy emphasis on Magnet Pull's limitations vs other prevalent Steels and its limitations as a trapping ability in general. If anything mention of how existing things keep other meta-threats in check is a worthwhile point to make in some cases provided that there's strong enough other support against that thing being broken (which in this case there is). There's no use pushing for a not really necessary suspect test that's likely to cause more problems via domino effect than solve any.It's worth noting that "hey if we ban x, y is too good/broken/bad influence" is not a valid argument in this case- broken checks broken is something that is often brought up in similar discussions, and it's considered as like, not a good point. The only thing we're concerned about is is magnet pull broken/uncompetitive/whatever else, not if we ban it will other stuff become broken. We just ban corv after if we have an issue w it