Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Heavyweapons Mann]

I don't understand this as Magma Storm has 100 BP

Maybe he meant to say 8 PP

 

[MrMonochromatic]

I don't understand this as Magma Storm has 100 BP

My bad, but i already corrected. I wanted to say PP. Thanks btw

 

[Gomi]

Don't understand Arcto being too good by this point, pretty much every team has learnt to properly adapt to its presence well and its largely with cores and pokemon many already considered great. Its def a threatening piece of the metagame but every steel but Corvi/Skarm is a fairly good check and we do have decent offensive checks in a pinch, most notably Scarfers, which i've noticed a general uptick in. Scarftana specifically has alot of potential for harassment because it forces a larger degree of prediction onto a pokemon that's already usually under a lot of stress to get every turn it can right.

examples of cores and individual pokemon who i find do well vs hail

CB
scarf

or +
aka sun as an archetype
depending on the structure
or +a decent ice resist

I can see an argument for Arcto forcing alot of pressure onto stall but I just don't play the playstyle much at all sooooo it's kind of not really something I can touch on. their typical structures can't really handle hail well though, bar some weird goggles shed cheese.

I'm just a pretty average ladderer so take what i say with a grain of salt, but Arcto just really doesn't strike me as something that forces me to overprep or play out of my mind to beat, usually.

 

[Negative Charge]

Many months ago there was a discussion in this thread of magnet pull and its impact on building in OU, which heavily skewed towards anti-ban. I think when one really boils down why people use Magnezone, it is to enable teammates by removing checks/counters and not on the traits of Magnezone as a mon (much like Dugtrio and Goth). It’s not brain surgery to pair zone with grass types like Kartana and Rillaboom, just as Zard Y + Dugtrio worked well. I don’t have any particularly strong feelings on the matter but Magnezone traps what it needs to.

It might be worthwhile to at least touch on how Little Cup handles trapping abilities and the differences between the tiers as well (with the high damage output but added eviolite bulk of battling at level 5).

Trapping abilities narrow the possible game states substantially and force the opponent into suboptimal plays just to avoid the trap. I think at a bare minimum there needs to be a more cognizable defense of Magnet Pull other than “it traps less things”. Is some amount of trapping abilities desirable? Could we test diglett? Wynaut? I think the status quo has continued without any serious examination on why MP remains and why we do/do not want it to.

 

[Scarfire]

Random post about normalizing shadow ball on specs Lele.

Tapu Lele @ Choice Specs
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball

Slowking has basically been a dead relic (also shadow ball hits it hard anyways) and Corvs in tour have mostly been either physdef or the rly fast timid ones we've been seeing, such as on the avalugg stall used in OLT. Essentially, 2hko'd by focus blast Corvs. Hitting 2 can be scary but generally hitting one and forcing the corv out is enough, and leaves it in psyshock 2hko range later. Point is, dropping tbolt for sball seems totally reasonable atm, turning the Shedinja stall matchup from "Lele kills nothing" to "Lele kills all 6". It also helps in sniping other random checks such as the slowly popularizing Victini, and less so common but still existent shit like Aegislash and Jirachi. Also hits opposing Lele hard, for whenever that situation arrises.

 

[Zeno420]

Don't understand Arcto being too good by this point, pretty much every team has learnt to properly adapt to its presence well and its largely with cores and pokemon many already considered great. Its def a threatening piece of the metagame but every steel but Corvi/Skarm is a fairly good check and we do have decent offensive checks in a pinch, most notably Scarfers, which i've noticed a general uptick in. Scarftana specifically has alot of potential for harassment because it forces a larger degree of prediction onto a pokemon that's already usually under a lot of stress to get every turn it can right.

examples of cores and individual pokemon who i find do well vs hail

CB
scarf

or +
aka sun as an archetype
depending on the structure
or +a decent ice resist

I can see an argument for Arcto forcing alot of pressure onto stall but I just don't play the playstyle much at all sooooo it's kind of not really something I can touch on. their typical structures can't really handle hail well though, bar some weird goggles shed cheese.

I'm just a pretty average ladderer so take what i say with a grain of salt, but Arcto just really doesn't strike me as something that forces me to overprep or play out of my mind to beat, usually.

While I do agree that most teams have adapted to hail, arctozolt alone doesn’t make the style unbearable.

The 2 most common and probably the best hail teams is ox hail and tricking hail which he used during olt.




Let’s look at the cores you listed, scarf kart and scarf lele can both be easily handled with the lost of power without specs/band. Both teams have various switchins that can check those 2 reliably. Scarf blace is a major threat most definitely, but with tran on trickings team and Av torn it can be dealt with. Personally I don’t think scarf gengar and victini is worth mentioning. They r just not common enough to be taken into account. Cb tar also is not faster than arctozolt even out of hail, low kick is also an easy ohko. Hippo and Zwole both get 2hkoed by blizzard (providing you land both).

But my main point is what arctozolt and hail can do for its teammates. Volcanion, lele, kyurem, and many more really benefit from steels being gone/chipped. Some simple doubles/pivoting with the threat of arctozolt in the back can break pass many of its “supposed checks” in melmetal, zone, hippo, zwole and etc.

Some techs have been made more prevalent because of hail most notably defensive rotom-h and lighting rod alowak. Although those 2 r definitely very good counters to arctozolt, they r pretty much dead weight in most other matchups.

TLDR: While I do agree with you, many teams have adapted to the presence of hail. Hail/arctozolt is by no means no longer “very good” even with the meta shifts. Arctozolt is still very limiting in the team builder.

 

[Gomi]

While I do agree that most teams have adapted to hail, arctozolt alone doesn’t make the style unbearable.

The 2 most common and probably the best hail teams is ox hail and tricking hail which he used during olt.




Let’s look at the cores you listed, scarf kart and scarf lele can both be easily handled with the lost of power without specs/band. Both teams have various switchins that can check those 2 reliably. Scarf blace is a major threat most definitely, but with tran on trickings team and Av torn it can be dealt with. Personally I don’t think scarf gengar and victini is worth mentioning. They r just not common enough to be taken into account. Cb tar also is not faster than arctozolt even out of hail, low kick is also an easy ohko. Hippo and Zwole both get 2hkoed by blizzard (providing you land both).

But my main point is what arctozolt and hail can do for its teammates. Volcanion, lele, kyurem, and many more really benefit from steels being gone/chipped. Some simple doubles/pivoting with the threat of arctozolt in the back can break pass many of its “supposed checks” in melmetal, zone, hippo, zwole and etc.

Some techs have been made more prevalent because of hail most notably defensive rotom-h and lighting rod alowak. Although those 2 r definitely very good counters to arctozolt, they r pretty much dead weight in most other matchups.

TLDR: While I do agree with you, many teams have adapted to the presence of hail. Hail/arctozolt is by no means no longer “very good” even with the meta shifts. Arctozolt is still very limiting in the team builder.

I would disagree with saying Scarf Kart and Scarf Lele can be handled easily. Scarf Kart really only needs a teammate to overwhelm Corv on Ox's build (which should be a prerequisite for scarftana) because Torn is a pretty ass check alot of the time, even moreso if you have a team member that makes torn dropping its AV a pretty garbage prospect. The first hail flat out doesn't have a way to beat scarftana beyond predicting and winning first, Knock is incredibly free and could feasibly clean without too much problem. Hell, it getting in and clicking knock might as well let it set up the sweep for itself given boots kyu is the main non rocks weak way to stop that from happening.

as for scarf gar, I didn't list it due to its commonality and more just to show that scarfers that bypass zolt's speed tier are just threats as a whole.

I listed Victini fr boots forcing kills and checking Zolt in a pinch, i havent seen a non gambit scarf tini in like months.

I listed CBtar because it overrides weather and hails tend to lack proper switchins to the mon, meaning if you ever get it in, they're forced onto the backfoot while you very likely get a kill/force huge damage.

Yea of course the cores are largely prediction reliant but they force zolt to continually get turns right or just spam sub and waste its own hail turns, which is usually a net positive scenario for you. Its not like Zolt is gonna get every turn right vs you either, and in hippo's case the punishment is similarly an override of your supportive weather while having to connect 2 blizzards even if you do predict correctly.

Yea Zolt has teammates to support it in overwhelming steel types but most of the time, those breakers let in hard to handle breakers in their own right, so at worst you can usually trade for KOs while denying Zolt free turns to do whatever it wants. Its the same as handling most of the other weather archetypes even with Hail's added flexibility, you try your best to get rocks up, force KOs and trades w/ ur own breakers, and work from there.

I still think hail is good, I just don't think its too good, the builder restriction is pretty light and mostly devolves into motivating non Corv/Skarm steels bc unless ur running super fat shit you can usually force trades to make up for not having consistent defensive outs.

 

[airfare]

as someone who's been spamming hail a lot, i agree that it isn't exactly broken at the moment
as others have already noted, pretty much every archetype has begun to adapt to arctozolt:

• using double/triple steel cores on bo/balance with things like melmetal, scizor, ferrothorn, and heatran to try and limit arctozolt's progress and entry with good pivoting
• using scarfers like tapu lele and kartana on offenses that would otherwise get lead 6-0d to try and force it out after a safe switchin or sacrifice
• using gastrodon/avalugg/goated goggles shedinja on fat in order to not autolose to sub blizzard zolt

there's not really much more to explain beyond that - losing to arctozolt is more of a teambuilder issue than a playing one nowadays and isn't really necessary to consider from a balance standpoint atm imo

i wanted to break down my favorite iteration of hail so far built by Ox the Fox

some of the more distinctive parts of the team:

• my absolute favorite thing about this team is the dynamic it uses with defog. corv + lando are exceptionally good at keeping rocks off for the entirety of the game (until u win first), opening opportunities for the insane wallbreaking core and giving options for far more aggressive play while conditioning in the hazards game.
• sub + lefties zolt gives you the option of turning your brain off while guaranteeing a kill with substitute, bypassing the pivoting mindgames altogether, and giving you a solid midground/scouting option when needed
• the offensive core of volcanion + zolt means that almost every "losing" matchup will be outplayable (besides gastro and some more niche cteamy shit) with solid, aggressive play from both of these near-unwallable breakers
• av torn is a decent pivot into most special attackers, giving outs to dragapult, slowking-g, and even something like turn 1 kyurem with knock. really good at generating momentum even vs koko and special scarfers
• lastly, np alolatales is a surprisingly ok cleaner and can even function as an interim wallbreaker vs teams lacking a real ice resist, managing to setup on things like pex. it also means that u have actual offensive presence and aren't taken advantage of by something like fog torn or corv

few replays of me using it in a competitive premier league (you can find several more in olt playoffs)
vs Kenix
vs Raj.Shoot
vs HANTSUKI

 

[Ctann]

The 2 most common and probably the best hail teams is ox hail and tricking hail which he used during olt.

just an anecdote here.. but I’ve played against similar teams to both of these a lot recently on ladder. Both are easily dealt with by specially defensive Kartana more than scarf Kartana. The first variant of the two is a simple cakewalk, as only a scarfed focus blast can revenge a healthy Kartana. I previously posted a replay against the first variant in 1900 ELO.

The second variant has the only real problem Kartana ever has to face … the tornadus therian is difficult to play around due to it being hard to chip into KO range, and you don’t really get rewarded for double switching unless you’re packing koko or weavile. And even then you’re still not really rewarded because it’s the lowest risk switch in on a non banded Kartana there is! Tornadus just U turns out of slower threats or uses knock off on Pokémon that can’t hurt it much. It also couldn’t care less about toxic or burns.

also Tapu lele will also easily dispose of both of these teams, however I’m partial to a calm mind set, as it will stand it’s ground verse everything and at worst it will put great pressure on heatran, whilst disincentivising arctozolt from switching in.

Using pressure style game flow (rather than scarf revenging) is much easier to stop a hail team than to stop a rain team for example, as all the hail mons dislike hazards and even soft attacks. You get a lot more free turns on defog, Aurora veil, u turns, etc. it’s much harder to find “free” turns on banded flip turns from barraskewda unless you’re happy to forfeit some of your offensive pressure (using slowbro, ferro, etc). if you’re against hail, you really shouldn’t be using valuable turns defogging or roosting whenever you can avoid it!

Nine tails is also the easiest weather setter to switch in on, just pack a fire type. Fire types are more useful than steel types because it’s harder for hail teams to switch into them on average. I’m pretty sure in the current meta fire types are in the discussion for top 5 most essential types to pack on a team.

Most Important/useful Types in OU

in the current meta, in no particular order, it would be something along the lines of:

Ground
Flying
Steel
Fire
Fairy

fairy is probably the least likely to deserve a top 5 spot in the current meta, due to steel types surging, but not sure what it could be replaced with. Koko, Fini and Lele are all top tier threats, whilst Bulu is kinda okay as well.

fire types are important right now and can compress a lot of work! Kyurem, arctozolt and Weavile have given fire types some time to shine! Maybe that’s why I’m seeing a lot more victini in high ladder

 

[Aberforth]

just an anecdote here.. but I’ve played against similar teams to both of these a lot recently on ladder. Both are easily dealt with by specially defensive Kartana more than scarf Kartana.

Sorry what? That doesnt sound like… a thing?

 

[Ctann]

Sorry what? That doesnt sound like… a thing?

i edited my post with a link back to one of the posts where I posted about 252 SpD / 252 Spe Kartana. Have posted quite a bit about it! Running a grass spam no magnezone that never struggles vs hail. So the empirical evidence is there.

The metagame just moves faster than most people talk about. You might remember the time when Weavile was in UUBL and people thought it was crap, lol. It then surged in use out of nowhere, and retained decent usage in the temporary zamazenta meta and is now considered possibly the best wincon in the game.

before that Volcarona was languishing in UU for sometime before some players figured out that with a little bulk, Volcarona can steamroll teams. Now I’d argue it’s bulkiest sets are A+ to S tier, whilst it’s offensive sets are B tier at best.

usually what happens is ladder experiments with things, some do decently well. An experienced player spots a threat and then develops it. Then a player who participates in competitions “techs” a set, and suddenly it is “discovered”. Example: When I saw someone tech a phys def Slowking-G on me in ladder I fell in love with the utility of the thing and started using a similar variant myself.

Kartana is possibly in the discussion for top 3 wincons right now.

Example of how experimental sets can be further developed: editing this post after witnessing another cool idea !! Trick room glo-king seems like another anti meta mon, the top teams are all offensive and combined with a slow teammate or two, I can see it being highly viable! Replay:https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1413196163

 

[Parin]

just an anecdote here.. but I’ve played against similar teams to both of these a lot recently on ladder. Both are easily dealt with by specially defensive Kartana more than scarf Kartana. The first variant of the two is a simple cakewalk, as only a scarfed focus blast can revenge a healthy Kartana. I previously posted a replay against the first variant in 1900 ELO.

The second variant has the only real problem Kartana ever has to face … the tornadus therian is difficult to play around due to it being hard to chip into KO range, and you don’t really get rewarded for double switching unless you’re packing koko or weavile. And even then you’re still not really rewarded because it’s the lowest risk switch in on a non banded Kartana there is! Tornadus just U turns out of slower threats or uses knock off on Pokémon that can’t hurt it much. It also couldn’t care less about toxic or burns.

also Tapu lele will also easily dispose of both of these teams, however I’m partial to a calm mind set, as it will stand it’s ground verse everything and at worst it will put great pressure on heatran, whilst disincentivising arctozolt from switching in.

Using pressure style game flow (rather than scarf revenging) is much easier to stop a hail team than to stop a rain team for example, as all the hail mons dislike hazards and even soft attacks. You get a lot more free turns on defog, Aurora veil, u turns, etc. it’s much harder to find “free” turns on banded flip turns from barraskewda unless you’re happy to forfeit some of your offensive pressure (using slowbro, ferro, etc). if you’re against hail, you really shouldn’t be using valuable turns defogging or roosting whenever you can avoid it!

Nine tails is also the easiest weather setter to switch in on, just pack a fire type. Fire types are more useful than steel types because it’s harder for hail teams to switch into them on average. I’m pretty sure in the current meta fire types are in the discussion for top 5 most essential types to pack on a team.

Most Important/useful Types in OU

in the current meta, in no particular order, it would be something along the lines of:

Ground
Flying
Steel
Fire
Fairy

fairy is probably the least likely to deserve a top 5 spot in the current meta, due to steel types surging, but not sure what it could be replaced with. Koko, Fini and Lele are all top tier threats, whilst Bulu is kinda okay as well.

fire types are important right now and can compress a lot of work! Kyurem, arctozolt and Weavile have given fire types some time to shine! Maybe that’s why I’m seeing a lot more victini in high ladder

I havent played a lot of OU, but I dont think kartana can have a specially defensive variant. Its know for having paper thin special defense, unless you slap on a assault vest, its not living many special hits...

 

[Ctann]

I havent played a lot of OU, but I dont think kartana can have a specially defensive variant. Its know for having paper thin special defense, unless you slap on a assault vest, its not living many special hits...

the logic behind it is not that it acts defensively, but rather that it’s harder to knock out or knock into revenge thresholds.

252 Atk EV is approx 15% power boost
252 SpD EV is approx 64% survivability boost

I have evidence to support this logic works in the current meta , currently at 2k ELO with a team that is deliberately designed to be gimped by flying types. Kartana pulls heavy weight vs the Tapu trio. Kartana surviving a hit has become more important than squeezing out that little extra KOing power

watch a few replays, I posted one that shows how it disposed of arctozolt, and forced a lele to reveal scarf. The one after shows how predictions from a fini couldn’t get it into KO range for a conk Mach punch.

when you’re playing offensive, it’s less about defending against threats and more about avoiding thresholds to be KOd whilst bringing your opponents Pokémon into KO range.

the set is very simple:


Kartana @ leftovers
252 SpD / 252 Spe / 4 Hp
Jolly Nature
- swords dance
- leaf blade
- knock off
- sacred sword

Not a fan of synthesis, as the three attacks are important, and swords dance let’s you muscle past things in the end game. Against some team structures like hail, you can have an end game begin in as little as 4-5 turns if you lure the main checks into KO thresholds!

 

[Jokler]

I saw some previous post and will share some thoughts -

1) Magnet Pull - I never really got why this thing was allowed in the first place. I talked about this a few months back as well and everyone replied one of 2 things - either that Zone is can only trap Steels as opposed to 17 types or Zone is shit if they don't have a steel type.

I think the 2nd point is invalidated as firstly the problem is the ability not the pokemon itself and Zone is atleast good enough to trap Steels and nowadays it has shown to be useful outside of even that by using Expert Belt sets to pressure fairies and Blissey teams, using Air Balloon to Trap Exca and Melly, using Lefties to cheat against physical offense teams with body press etc. Zone being bad and therefore it's trapping be justified is not an argument.

The first point is the one that people just throw out and don't want any rebuttals to. I had written an entire in battle scenario of Zone and friends vs Corvi and how Corvi is so pressurized that the principal is same as Dugtrio vs Pex. The effect is that same as that the metal bird can't counter what it needs to and every turn for it becomes a 50/50 that is completely favoured in the Zone user's benefit. But nobody gives a rebuttal to it and just bring back the 17 types vs 1 type argument.

I genuinely believe that this is case where people know that Magnet Pull is uncompetitive but they want to keep it regardless and take undue advantage of it being in a majority be it because they don't want to change Magnet Pull not being OU after 5 Gens or maybe they hate facing Ferro and Corvi that much.

Believe me, I am not salty about this. I honestly don't care. I have started using Zone myself. It's better to use the broken tools available to gain every advantage possible than to complain about removing them.


2) Hail : I definitely don't think it is broken at all. I don't have a very strong opinion on it as I spam Sun like no tomorrow and I am one of the few people who still says, "Damn, Pert is a good mon in OU." and have it on like 50% of all my teams. So facing it, it didn't really seem overwhelming and all that good to be honest at first. I used it myself coupled with Sandslash Alolan and that team had major weaknesses and Sandslash really hindered more than it helped. However I started to see what the hype was about for Arctozolt and why is it being put in such high regard.

It CAN definitely decimate unprepared teams but that is the thing, people need to be unprepared for it. There are 2 problems I saw it have -

1) It is not a like traditional Weather. What I mean by that is that normal weather teams make up for stocking on similar mons by having overwhelming offense and Speed presence. While on the other hand you stock up 2 Ice types just to make Arctozolt faster than just the unboosted Meta game (You are outsped by base 91 scarfers and up) with no additional power boost. Also the Hail as a whole doesn't help your team out outside of 100℅ Blizzards, 4 turn Aurora Veil and countering Rain.

2) It is actually quite weak when not clicking Bolt Beak vs offensive mons. Mons like Koko, Zeraora, Hippo, Kyurem, Zone etc. Easily retaliate vs it and mons like Melmetal, Ferro, Scizor using Bullet Punch, Swampert survive multiple hits.

3) I think it's biggest issue is that it is a mon that was good as a result of the builder rather than the actual battle, meaning the meta was caught a bit off guard by it. Don't get me wrong I have been downplaying it too much but I understood why it was where it was and it was extremely good for a while but I definitely see it falling back down as people get more used to it and start running more durable steels or even multiple steels, opposing weather, more scarfers etc. I predict it to be a one hit wonder because at the end of the day, dedicating 2 team slots to it won't seem as appealing when it doesn't instantly destroy entire teams.

 

[Ctann]

I saw some previous post and will share some thoughts -

1) Magnet Pull - I never really got why this thing was allowed in the first place. I talked about this a few months back as well and everyone replied one of 2 things - either that Zone is can only trap Steels as opposed to 17 types or Zone is shit if they don't have a steel type.

I think the 2nd point is invalidated as firstly the problem is the ability not the pokemon itself and Zone is atleast good enough to trap Steels and nowadays it has shown to be useful outside of even that by using Expert Belt sets to pressure fairies and Blissey teams, using Air Balloon to Trap Exca and Melly, using Lefties to cheat against physical offense teams with body press etc. Zone being bad and therefore it's trapping be justified is not an argument.

The first point is the one that people just throw out and don't want any rebuttals to. I had written an entire in battle scenario of Zone and friends vs Corvi and how Corvi is so pressurized that the principal is same as Dugtrio vs Pex. The effect is that same as that the metal bird can't counter what it needs to and every turn for it becomes a 50/50 that is completely favoured in the Zone user's benefit. But nobody gives a rebuttal to it and just bring back the 17 types vs 1 type argument.

I genuinely believe that this is case where people know that Magnet Pull is uncompetitive but they want to keep it regardless and take undue advantage of it being in a majority be it because they don't want to change Magnet Pull not being OU after 5 Gens or maybe they hate facing Ferro and Corvi that much.

Believe me, I am not salty about this. I honestly don't care. I have started using Zone myself.

It's better to use the broken tools available to gain every advantage possible than to complain about removing them.

I don’t think magnet pull can be looked at as “uncompetitive”, as the reality is that usually that definition is reserved for things that manipulate chance, and according to the decision makers “offer no other relevant value”. An example of uncompetitive, using the implied definition, is kings rock on cloyster, which was banned.

Magnet pull being ”too good for OU” on the other hand, is a different topic.

The effect is that same as that the metal bird can't counter what it needs to and every turn for it becomes a 50/50 that is completely favoured in the Zone user's benefit. But nobody gives a rebuttal to it and just bring back the 17 types vs 1 type argument.

this is simple, if your counter isn’t beating what it needs to. Consider updating the team to rely less on that one Pokémon to counter the threat, or otherwise play the game against a Magnezone with the trap being in mind from turn 1. Usually it’s a combination of the two. I have never found Ferrothorn bad because of a magnezone, usually it’s weakness is fire attacks. Corviknight rarely finds magnezone a true problem, it’s usually high pressure offense built to deal with it.

if magnet pull is too good for OU, ban it. It doesn’t seem like it is, as it’s best user isn’t necessarily overbearing. Just try running a different team architecture if zone is a problem. Corviknight isn’t a “hard” counter to Rillaboom and friends. It’s usually a check that can get momentum and defog, this is assuming you’re running it’s standard defog set of course. If you want a harder counter try or most flying types that resist fighting and run super effective moves, like , and

I have started using Zone myself. It's better to use the broken tools available to gain every advantage possible than to complain about removing them

.

That’s awesome!! Keep using it, it helps provide some evidence that magnezone is too good if you can demonstrably show that it improved your performance dramatically and left opponents with little chance to win!! You’ll quickly find magnezone is no cinderace , Zygarde or magearna.

 

[pulsar512b]

slight like nitpick: i wouldn't describe this set as "specially defensive", i would define it as "timid" or "speed boosting"

Magnet Pull definitely is arguably a bad influence on the metagame/overcentralizing, as it+grass type is pretty hard to check over a game.

 

[Clone]

slight like nitpick: i wouldn't describe this set as "specially defensive", i would define it as "timid" or "speed boosting"

Magnet Pull definitely is arguably a bad influence on the metagame/overcentralizing, as it+grass type is pretty hard to check over a game.

Jolly kartana doesn't boost speed

 

[Jokler]

I don’t think magnet pull can be looked at as “uncompetitive”, as the reality is that usually that definition is reserved for things that manipulate chance, and according to the decision makers “offer no other relevant value”. An example of uncompetitive, using the implied definition, is kings rock on cloyster, which was banned.

Magnet pull being ”too good for OU” on the other hand, is a different topic.

Bro, I highly encourage you to check your facts before trying to correct someone else. That RNG thing is one example of what is considered uncompetitive, not the entire scope of it. Look at literally any Trapping Ability suspect and they call it uncompetitive, why? because switching is a fundamental part of singles and it is not far from saying that singles is built on the principle of switching. One party being able to prevent the opposition from doing one of the very basic move in Mons, that is exactly the what being "Uncompetitive" is. Literally nobody ever said Magnet Pull is "Too Much for OU".

this is simple, if your counter isn’t beating what it needs to. Consider updating the team to rely less on that one Pokémon to counter the threat, or otherwise play the game against a Magnezone with the trap being in mind from turn 1. Usually it’s a combination of the two. I have never found Ferrothorn bad because of a magnezone, usually it’s weakness is fire attacks. Corviknight rarely finds magnezone a true problem, it’s usually high pressure offense built to deal with it.

if magnet pull is too good for OU, ban it. It doesn’t seem like it is, as it’s best user isn’t necessarily overbearing. Just try running a different team architecture if zone is a problem. Corviknight isn’t a “hard” counter to Rillaboom and friends. It’s usually a check that can get momentum and defog, this is assuming you’re running it’s standard defog set of course. If you want a harder counter try or most flying types that resist fighting and run super effective moves, like , and

First things first, I always find it so funny when people add their own pointers and COUNTER them on their own to strengthen their argument. I never said "Ferro is Bad", and I never even mentioned Rilla in these posts.

Either way, this what I mean when I say that I never got a decent Pro Magnet Pull argument. I will break this reply down in three sentences for ya guys, "Your team is bad, I personally can play around Zone, Run different counters to those mons if they get trapped." I don't get in what world this is a valid counter argument of the breakdown of my scenario of Corvi vs a Zone team, the plays that are forced and how disadvantaged the Corvi user is in the weight of prediction.

That is the root of the very problem. Why is "playing around" Zone to that degree acceptable for these Steel types? Are steel types really that head and shoulders above the rest of them that they need to be balanced out by being trapped? IMHO, I definitely don't believe this.


I will give ya people a very simple scenario to illustrate this, say, your counter to the DD Roost Wingbeat EQ Dnite is Corvi (Let's just assume for a minute, despite everyone and their mother running Ice Punch now) and they have a Zone in the back. Now, Corvi is a perfectly good counter as Dnite just has 8 Wingbeats against it and it's not a 2HKO but in this scenario it's completely flipped, you LITERALLY can't outplay this as the Corvi user. They can keep staying in with Dnite and double to Zone any turn they feel like. That's already very rough and low odds for you but also consider that somehow you lucked out and got it right, they could just repeat this do it until Corvi get's trapped. You are not outplaying here, you are both playing slots that the other person will double or not.

This might seem like a very specific scenario but it's not impossible to come across in a battle. The argument that run "a different counter then" is invalid imo as I think it is only valid if they are able to overwhelm your counter with good switched and offensive pressure, not one double switch that you can't escape from.

That’s awesome!! Keep using it, it helps provide some evidence that magnezone is too good if you can demonstrably show that it improved your performance dramatically and left opponents with little chance to win!! You’ll quickly find magnezone is no cinderace , Zygarde or magearna.

Sire, I humbly apologize for putting a small anecdote after an actual argument (Hey that's unintentional 5 word alliteration). I am truly ashamed that you had the misfortune of having to look at that, that monstrosity of a post while everything you wrote was so insightful and knowledgeable.

See? these people start to attack when they don't have an actual point. I wrote some actual points against Magnet Pull and this dude picks up the one satirical line from the post and goes of on that. Also it's quite hypocritical that this dude is the one who says that I provide no evidence when he literally talked in the air the whole time without one point to illustrate.

Also bro why the hell are you comparing Zone to Cind, Zyggy and Mag? ATLEAST compare it to Dugtrio or Goth if you really want to.

That is all I have to say. Honestly, I have nothing against dude. I am not trying to have a battle of words with him but I always find it so sad that people are just sitting there ready to pounce on a random kid on internet. I am just discussing my views on the meta game here and nothing else but these guys for some reason just want to make it personal over mons, heck, over an ability.

 

[pulsar512b]

Jolly kartana doesn't boost speed

lol im blind mb
timid kart go stonks tho

 

[Negative Charge]

DP Analysis

Magnezone's ability Magnet Pull, which allows it to trap Steel-types and effectively cripple or remove most of them, is unmatched by any other Pokemon. The consistency that comes with trapping as opposed to luring a target can enable a variety of setup sweepers and physical attackers. In particular, trapping Skarmory, Jirachi, Empoleon, and even Bronzong can be extremely desirable.

BW Analysis

Magnezone has one job in the BW OU metagame, and it does that job well: trap and remove Steel-type Pokemon, particularly Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Excadrill. Thanks to Magnezone's typing and ability, it can come in on most Steel-type Pokemon without much trouble and remove them. This makes Magnezone an enabler for Pokemon that are stopped by Steel-types, such as Latios, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Gliscor, and Amoonguss; making it the cornerstone of the famous DragMag style, where Magnezone clears the way for a collection of Dragon-type Pokemon to fire off powerful attacks. In addition, its ability to trap common entry hazard setters such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory and a common spinner and wallbreaker in Excadrill can make it a valuable teammate and take pressure off your spinner by reducing the need to spin as soon as possible.

XY Analysis

At first glance, there seems to be little reason to use Magnezone in OU. It's slow, has crippling weaknesses to common attacking types, and faces stiff competition from other, better Electric-type options available, such as Thundurus. However, its signature ability, Magnet Pull, gives it the excellent niche of being able to trap and remove many common Steel-types, making it a good partner for certain sweepers, such as Mega Pinsir and Dragonite

SM Analysis

Magnezone's near-exclusive access to Magnet Pull gives it a very unique and valuable niche in the OU metagame as a trapper and eliminator of Steel-types such as Ferrothorn, Scizor, Skarmory, and Celesteela. It also functions as a solid revenge killer with Choice Scarf, being able to check a number of dangerous Pokemon like Kartana, Mega Scizor, and weakened Celesteela.

SS Analysis

Magnezone's main draw is trapping and removing Steel-types such as Corviknight, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn with Magnet Pull. This support greatly enables many of the strongest sweepers and wallbreakers in the tier, such as Garchomp and Rillaboom. Its coverage is limited but effective, with different options to trap additional foes

All of this is to say that there has been a long held acknowledgement Magnet Pull boosts the viability of teammates that cannot deal with steels. In my view, this is an implied statement that some level of trapping abilities are desirable. Following this logic (if it actually is the case), I would like to discuss testing other weaker trappers. In particular, I think Trapinch is one particularly notable candidate. In LC, it can trap Onyx and Pawniard and Abra/Grookey with First Impression. It has a base speed of 10. I just don't see much of a compelling reason that Corviknight must live in fear but Heatran doesn't. I just don't think we've had a sustained and serious discussion on trapping since the XY era. The current policy is a strange limbo.

 

[Scarfire]

On the Magnet Pull discussion, I think simply put Corviknight in a magnet pull-less meta is just near unpunishable and almost too good to not put on every other team. Momentum, removal, an answer to grounds, grasses, weavile and bisharp, lele and most melmetals all in one untrappable slot. Its ability to check so much is only hindered by the fact that u have to consider "what if X mon I'm checking is paired with Zone", and even then, the zone has to play around obnoxious shed shell sets and the now slowly increasing usage of the 241 timid Corv.

As for other steels, skarmory is kind of dwindling regardless of Zone I feel, its seemingly just worse as a steel-bird than Corviknight and as a spiker Ferrothorn seems to offer more (water resist, koko check, lele check, so on). Ferro is another zone target that can easily get away with shed shell sets which we saw a bit of on OLT ladder (mainly cycle 1, where Zone seemed to peak), and also we managed to get a glimpse of ID Press Ferro's that can check threats like Weavile, Corv, and Melmetal, while also being able to 1v1 Zones. Melmetal and Kart require very specific plays to go your way in order to trap them and both warrant the need of a chople berry generally, and in Melm's case you also need magnet rise to get it trapped. Its not as easy as just switching hard into any of these steels and trapping them, since a lot of them can just blow you away on the switch or the following turn.

None of this should be any new info, but I am trying to point out that unlike previous trapping abilities or even currently existing things like Heatran's magma storm, Magnet Pull isn't exactly the free take-a-mon-out card you expect it to be, and teching against it isn't that much of a hassle for a lot of these mons (bar maybe Ferro). I did also neglect to mention AV Magnezone to trap Heatran, a strat that helps open up mons like Volcarona (or Hatterene, if thats your thing), but I haven't seen any of these teams openly have success on OLT ladder or in tour, so I'd rather just leave them as an honourable mention rather than an actual point for or against MP.

 

[pulsar512b]

On the Magnet Pull discussion, I think simply put Corviknight in a magnet pull-less meta is just near unpunishable and almost too good to not put on every other team. Momentum, removal, an answer to grounds, grasses, weavile and bisharp, lele and most melmetals all in one untrappable slot. Its ability to check so much is only hindered by the fact that u have to consider "what if X mon I'm checking is paired with Zone", and even then, the zone has to play around obnoxious shed shell sets and the now slowly increasing usage of the 241 timid Corv.

It's worth noting that "hey if we ban x, y is too good/broken/bad influence" is not a valid argument in this case- broken checks broken is something that is often brought up in similar discussions, and it's considered as like, not a good point. The only thing we're concerned about is is magnet pull broken/uncompetitive/whatever else, not if we ban it will other stuff become broken. We just ban corv after if we have an issue w it

 

[Scarfire]

It's worth noting that "hey if we ban x, y is too good/broken/bad influence" is not a valid argument in this case- broken checks broken is something that is often brought up in similar discussions, and it's considered as like, not a good point. The only thing we're concerned about is is magnet pull broken/uncompetitive/whatever else, not if we ban it will other stuff become broken. We just ban corv after if we have an issue w it

"None of this should be any new info, but I am trying to point out that unlike previous trapping abilities or even currently existing things like Heatran's magma storm, Magnet Pull isn't exactly the free take-a-mon-out card you expect it to be, and teching against it isn't that much of a hassle for a lot of these mons (bar maybe Ferro)."

Edit: The first bit was me talking about the point you made sure, I did say Corv would be broken, but I then elaborated on how literally every mon that is a target of M-Pull isnt affected as badly as you'd want it to be. I don't think something that isnt a guaranteed trap as much so as Arena Trap was, is uncompetitive.

 

[Tapeworm]

It's worth noting that "hey if we ban x, y is too good/broken/bad influence" is not a valid argument in this case- broken checks broken is something that is often brought up in similar discussions, and it's considered as like, not a good point. The only thing we're concerned about is is magnet pull broken/uncompetitive/whatever else, not if we ban it will other stuff become broken. We just ban corv after if we have an issue w it

It's also worth noting that the post also put heavy emphasis on Magnet Pull's limitations vs other prevalent Steels and its limitations as a trapping ability in general. If anything mention of how existing things keep other meta-threats in check is a worthwhile point to make in some cases provided that there's strong enough other support against that thing being broken (which in this case there is). There's no use pushing for a not really necessary suspect test that's likely to cause more problems via domino effect than solve any.

 

[Contrary Servine]

I have previously given my thoughts on the magnet pull discussion, but since it’s come up again I‘ll just give my 2 cents.
I have a problem with the idea that ‘switching is an inherent part of the game’ and therefore trapping is uncompetitive because it prevents it. Trapping is just as much ‘an inherent part of the game’ as switching-they’ve both existed since Gen 1. I don’t view trapping as inherently uncompetitive, because it has no element of luck, but abilities such as Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are obviously overpowered, since they trap most stuff just by switching in (Though tbh Shadow Tag Gothita should honestly be allowed in OU-its stats are so trash that it can’t actually trap anything effectively). Magnet Pull is far more limited-but rather than repeat a dead argument, I’ll explain why this matters. Due to the limitations of its moveset and its ability, Magnezone can only trap three OU mons reliably-Corv, Ferro and Skarm. This is not counting gimmick sets to trap Heatran and stuff. This means that at the start of the game, both players know what mons Magnezone can trap, which means that the opponent can play around it. One thing that the non-Magnezone player can take advantage of is the fact that Magnezone will usually come it on Steels and attempt to trap them-you can predict and gain momentum. Because of this, a Magnezone switch-in isn’t risk free for the Magnezone player, since Magnezone invites in powerful threats such as Chomp and Heatran. True, if Magnezone comes in on a Steel, there’s nothing you can do, but this is similar to a lot of other 50/50s in the game. Get it wrong, and you lose. Get it right, you win.
I think there’s general agreement that Magnezone itself is not broken-outside of trapping Steels it’s subpar, so it’s somewhat match-up fishy. But if we think that trapping itself is uncompetitive, then we have to immediately ban Fire Spin, Whirlpool etc. I don’t think I need to explain why this is a bad idea. Also, before anyone says that Magnet Pull is better than Fire Spin/Whirlpool because it traps by switching in-it’s not. It only traps steels, whereas trapping moves trap anything that isn’t immune. They’re just as difficult to play around as Magnet Pull, if not more so, since Magnet Pull is at least predictable.
Trapping is not uncompetitive, Magnet Pull is not overpowered, so don’t ban Magnet Pull.

Edit:100th post!