It just makes it feel incomplete. All the effort put into the scenery (and this is a gorgeous adventure, absolutely), following mons, the Pokeathelon, integrating the Suicune story, reworking the Kimono Girls to be actually plot-relevant, restoring all of Kanto...but they couldn't fix the level curve? Couldn't move Murkrow or Houndour into a place you could actually access them at a reasonable point?
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
But this is just about GSC, because these things were not changed in the remake. Outside of the art style, which does not seem to explain why HGSS would be third.
I can't even say story is complete. New Rocket seemed ok, but then fell off completely when they started Giovanni simping. The new Rocket execs are absolutely nothing for character role. Kanto has 0 campaign outside badges. Elm flat out is overrided by Oak and the freaking delivery boy
Land routes regardless are horrifically small in Johto. Some in Kanto got restrored, but it was still mostly smaller than OG and FRLG
At least the Kimono Girls and Lugia got something
I'm honestly curious why the imposter Oak story was scrapped, and whether it'd affect anything. Unown's ruins being a waste is sad
Otherwise, I find the fact GF IMMEDIATELY wanted to rehash on Kanto right after Gen 1 dev very absurd. The dev comment in game for HGSS on "a remake needs added substantial contant" is utterly hypocritical. The added content outside Qol literally was for optional modes, or wifi events despite Arceus being illegal to get until Gen 5
Nor can I like that similar to Sonic CD, the fanbase obnoxiously considered Gen 2 peak of Pokemon when it was legitimately mechanically worse for maingame than even Gen 1 ironically for campaign, despite fixing battle glitches.
Land routes regardless are horrifically small in Johto. Some in Kanto got restrored, but it was still mostly smaller than OG and FRLG
At least the Kimono Girls and Lugia got something
I'm honestly curious why the imposter Oak story was scrapped, and whether it'd affect anything. Unown's ruins being a waste is sad
Otherwise, I find the fact GF IMMEDIATELY wanted to rehash on Kanto right after Gen 1 dev very absurd. The dev comment in game for HGSS on "a remake needs added substantial contant" is utterly hypocritical. The added content outside Qol literally was for optional modes, or wifi events despite Arceus being illegal to get until Gen 5
Nor can I like that similar to Sonic CD, the fanbase obnoxiously considered Gen 2 peak of Pokemon when it was legitimately mechanically worse for maingame than even Gen 1 ironically for campaign, despite fixing battle glitches.
Murkrow can be caught in the Safari Zone per Kanto in HG/SS. As for Houndour, pokemon games are not designed to be done with at the E4, nor are in game playthroughs the only thing they were designed for. Having a mon found post E4 that you have to grind up is a perfectly valid thing. It is a reward for exploring these new areas and investing in something odd you found their. I swear to fucking arceus that half you people that all pokemon is is the 8 gyms/trials/whatever boss fights they come up with and whatever the final boss battle royal is.
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Arceus was totally able to be gotten in gen 4 LOL. They had a handful of events across the globe for it.
Which the game doesn't tell you. The Safari Zone is not listed as a possible location in the Pokédex.
So you either come across Murkrow in the Safari Zone by reading a guide (which makes the 'exploration reward' point moot anyways) or by complete chance.
Having to slow down the game's pace to a crawl because something that seems cool is severely underleveled isn't a valid thing.
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I would have had more sympathy for hgss if it was so fucking slow. And yeah some of it is "unga bunga gen 4 hp bar funny!!", but it's not just the system. Grinding is slow, the plot feels slow (until it picks up mach 300 and proceeds to drive into a wall and explode into nothing), battling feels slow, going around the region feels slow.
It's all such a drag, it makes a very meh game into something almost unplayable for me. Games don't have to go super fast or advance plot all the time or have tou progress every pixel you move, but hgss is genuinely a miserable experience. Unironically I feel like the gen 2 versions are better. Their jank is more charming at least.
It's all such a drag, it makes a very meh game into something almost unplayable for me. Games don't have to go super fast or advance plot all the time or have tou progress every pixel you move, but hgss is genuinely a miserable experience. Unironically I feel like the gen 2 versions are better. Their jank is more charming at least.
Johto will always be among my favourite Pokemon regions and playing HeartGold for the first time was one of my favourite Pokemon-playing experiences of all time, but the replayability of HGSS and especially GSC is severely limited for me, to the point where I've recently abandoned playthroughs of HeartGold and Crystal part-way through (something I NEVER normally do). The level curve has been discussed to death, but one of the major knock-on effects of it is how much more important level-up movepools and early evolutions are in Johto compared with other regions. The proportion of Pokemon in GSC/HGSS that are simply frustrating to raise is way higher than in most of the other games.
If you avoid those mons then the gameplay (ironically) feels rather linear, because it's generally very clear which Pokemon and team compositions will breeze through a tough boss fight and which ones will have almost no chance without grinding/item spam/etc. and sadly, most of the super-strong mons are, as Wukong noted, Kanto mons.
Lorelei and Agatha are gone from Indigo Plateau, replaced by trainers who seem to be more connected to Johto than Kanto (at least based on their aces). Giovanni is gone, replaced by a still-sorta-bitter Blue who feels like he's just kinda spinning his wheels. The Safari Zone is gone, replaced with a facility that seems much less like an organic part of Fuchsia City (the Pal Park only really exists for the player, after all). Cinnabar Island has been wiped out by an eruption but things have already settled back into a new status quo that's a little poignant but underexplored. There's a major power cut that barely feels like it has an effect on the region aside from its connection back to Johto via the Magnet Train. Every dungeon feels smaller or less lively. Even the climactic fight against Red happens in Johto after he leaves Kanto to train without really telling anyone what he's up to and apparently without having much of a goal in mind. Hell, Oak spends all his time in Johto with his radio show until he returns to his lab to assume the designated Pokedex Assessment Position.
I'm not sure Johto really has anything to prove to Kanto except in the minds of a few Gym Leaders.
If you avoid those mons then the gameplay (ironically) feels rather linear, because it's generally very clear which Pokemon and team compositions will breeze through a tough boss fight and which ones will have almost no chance without grinding/item spam/etc. and sadly, most of the super-strong mons are, as Wukong noted, Kanto mons.
I like the idea of this theme but I think it's undermined a little by how sparse Kanto feels, even with the changes from GSC to HGSS. Naturally, Johto is the primary setting of the games, so it makes sense that it's the place where most of the exciting stuff is happening, but Kanto doesn't really feel like it stacks up as the "big brother" in this analogy.
Lorelei and Agatha are gone from Indigo Plateau, replaced by trainers who seem to be more connected to Johto than Kanto (at least based on their aces). Giovanni is gone, replaced by a still-sorta-bitter Blue who feels like he's just kinda spinning his wheels. The Safari Zone is gone, replaced with a facility that seems much less like an organic part of Fuchsia City (the Pal Park only really exists for the player, after all). Cinnabar Island has been wiped out by an eruption but things have already settled back into a new status quo that's a little poignant but underexplored. There's a major power cut that barely feels like it has an effect on the region aside from its connection back to Johto via the Magnet Train. Every dungeon feels smaller or less lively. Even the climactic fight against Red happens in Johto after he leaves Kanto to train without really telling anyone what he's up to and apparently without having much of a goal in mind. Hell, Oak spends all his time in Johto with his radio show until he returns to his lab to assume the designated Pokedex Assessment Position.
I'm not sure Johto really has anything to prove to Kanto except in the minds of a few Gym Leaders.
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Also, even with the whole argument of "freedom" to do 3 gyms in any order that I often hear whenever the level curve is brought up, that still doesn't mean the level curve has to flatten as much as it does, or that Routes 38 and 43 need to have Pokemon of roughly the same levels as each other (especially when you consider that nothing on either route cracks Level 20).
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
It's frustrating because it would have been so easy to fix the level curve and lengthen the plot had they been willing to diverge from the original GSC plot just a little, but they weren't. They even comment on this in the Game Freak building in Celadon, with Masuda talking about how they don't want to mess with fans' memories. But this didn't stop them introducing the Sevii Islands midway through FRLG's plot. I actually came up with a scenario ages ago that would have easily fixed the level curve while preserving the overall plot structure and it's frustrating that apparently no-one on the dev team thought of anything similar.
This would have allowed Chuck, Jasmine, and Pryce's levels to reflect their positions as fifth, sixth, and seventh gym leaders respectively and stretch the level curve of Johto out a bit to allow for a proper progression. That way Johto's level curve could have been made similar to Hoenn's (Steven and Wallace's aces are at level 58 in RSE). The Kanto portion of the game would need a significant amount of retooling too but that's a whole other discussion.
- The gatehouse east of Ecruteak is blocked by sightseers trying to get to the Lake of Rage, so the player is forced to take the westward route to Olivine
- When the player arrives in Cianwood, the gatehouse leading to the Safari Zone is still under construction and blocked off
- The pharmacy owner is missing from the shop when the player visits; the only person there is his assistant, who is too inexperienced to know which medicine the player needs for Amphy
- The player therefore has nothing to do except challenge the gym. Once the Stormbadge is acquired, the gatehouse leading to the Safari Zone is completed and the player can pass through it (I'd personally move it to the north of the city to tie into the Suicune/Eusine event but that's another topic)
- The pharmacy owner is at the Safari Zone gates, having come earlier to check it out. The player talks to him and he agrees to return to the pharmacy
- He gives the player the SecretPotion and the player is able to fight Jasmine
- Once the Mineralbadge is acquired, the gatehouse east of Ecruteak clears and the player is able to go to Mahogany Town. All the trainers in this area and the Rocket Hideout get a nice level boost, with Pryce's Pokemon fittingly being elevated to the high 30s/early 40s
This would have allowed Chuck, Jasmine, and Pryce's levels to reflect their positions as fifth, sixth, and seventh gym leaders respectively and stretch the level curve of Johto out a bit to allow for a proper progression. That way Johto's level curve could have been made similar to Hoenn's (Steven and Wallace's aces are at level 58 in RSE). The Kanto portion of the game would need a significant amount of retooling too but that's a whole other discussion.
While I wouldn't go as far as to say that it has became an unpopular opinion, I definitely feel that liking the Johto games isn't as popular as it was in the past. Though I'll admit I might not be able to see this objectively as I have a very strong negative bias to the Johto games. Still, I have seen quite a bit of critcism towards the Johto games recently. Not only here on Smogon, but on other forums and sites as well. The Johto games no longer seem to be viewed as flawless masterpieces that are immune to criticism, which they were always considered to be in the past, especially HG/SS. But even so, they still recieve a lot of praise, so I do not think that liking them is unpopular.
I agree with all of the common criticisms towards the Johto games (such as the level curve, the Pokémon distribution, Kanto feeling like filler, the slowness of the games) and I don't want to post my in-depth thoughts on them once more. However, I want to take a look at the things the Johto games (or at least HG/SS) usually get a lot of praise for, and how I feel about these things. I am mostly going to focus on the things that were mentioned by other people in this discussion.
HG/SS graphics: Not a fan of them. I think they are massively overrated and not as great as many people claim that they are. HG/SS also screwed up the sprites of many Pokémon which D/P/P had previously gotten right. I prefer the graphics in Platinum and the Unova games, they look much better to me.
Theme of the games: The idea of Johto being seen as a "little brother" to Kanto is cool. But the execution is terrible. The Red fight especially suffers from this. As Cobalt Empoleon posted, the theme doesn't really work since Kanto doesn't feel that much like a "big brother" in the Johto games.
Story: Adding on to the above, I think the story/characters/plot/narrative/whatever in HG/SS is the worst in the series. Everything about the story is terrible. I can't come up with a single thing I actually liked from it. I find it to be bad to start with since it is based on the G/S/C story, but without any notable improvements. They also kept some of the big plot holes from G/S/C, like the disappearance of Lorelei/Agatha. They also ignored some of the things FR/LG did in an attempt to fix these things. Team Rocket is horrendously bad, they were already the worst evil team in the series but HG/SS somehow made them even worse instead of trying to improve them. Keeping Suicune and Eusine didn't really do much since it sort of clashes with the original G/S story. Lugia/Ho-Oh got the focus instead of Suicune which didn't really work for me, especially for Lugia. Going to the Whirl Islands instead of the Bell Tower felt very unnatural and out of place. I also think that adding the Kimono girls to the story just made it even worse. Overall, I think B2/W2 handled the whole sequel story much better, I never had any problems with their story.
Immersion: I don't see it. The games never felt particularly immersive to me. With that said, I'm not sure if I can say that any of the Pokémon games have ever felt immersive to me, it is not really a feeling I get from playing Pokémon. Or maybe it is, but if so, I have a very hard time putting it down into words.
Following Pokémon: Blue Flare hot take, but I disliked this feature. It just annoyed me to no end. Being unable to turn it off almost made it unbearable. And since it wasn't in G/S/C, it further helped ruining the otherwise nostalgic feeling the games tried to give me. However, I can no longer say it is my least favorite feature in the series as Legends: Arceus introduced a new feature (or rather mechanic) which I downright hate, which I can't say I do for the following Pokémon (I just strongly dislike it). Still, it is definitely among my top 5 least favorite features in the series.
Pokéathlon: Another unpopular opinion, but I didn't care much for it. Not my least favorite minigame in the series, but also very far from my favorite.
Restoring Kanto: I have said this before, but I actually like the G/S/C version of Kanto better since it created a unique ultra-industrialized atmosphere. While it was heavily flawed from a gameplay perspective, the atmosphere was really cool. HG/SS kept all of the gameplay flaws but not the atmosphere, which was terrible as it made Kanto even less enjoyable.
"Freedom" of exploration: I don't like it since it ruins the level curve and doesn't really add anything notable in terms of gameplay. I prefer having a linear region (or a region with clear progression) but with optional areas to explore along the way, I think Unova and Sinnoh did this the very best. And Hisui, for that matter.
Touch Screen controls and menus: This will definitely be an unpopular opinion, but I thought they were atrociously bad. Everything about them felt so slow and clunky, doing anything in the menus was a mess compared to in the Gen 5/6/7 games which made way better use of the touch screen compared to HG/SS.
I guess that what I want to say is that I agree with most things other people consider flawed about HG/SS, but to me, the games do next to nothing to make up for the flaws as I also happen to dislike or don't care much for most of the things that other fans generally like about HG/SS. As most people should know by now, HG/SS are my least favorite Pokémon games and I actually liked G/S/C better, mainly because they were at least fun to play when they were new.
This is a really excellent solution. It would have allowed them to have a functional level curve, clear progression and maybe even a better story as well, thus fixing some of the major issues with Johto.
To end this, I guess I should post a new potentially unpopular opinion of mine which is also about Johto: I think Johto is at its best outside of the games. I realized this when I watched the episode "The Show" from Pokémon Evolutions. Unlike the Johto games, this episode was good. The same goes for the Johto episodes of Pokémon Generations, and I think the G/S/C chapter of Pokémon Adventures is really great as well, it is one of my three favorite chapters from the manga. To me, the G/S/C chapter is the Johto I always dreamed of but that the games never gave me. I can't speak for how Johto did in other areas like the main anime or the TCG, but when it comes to Pokémon Adventures and the non-anime animations, I think Johto is way better in those than it ever was in the games.
Thing is, they already have the mechanism needed for non-linear gyms, they've had it since Gen II. Give the enemy multiple teams, then look at the player's progression to decide which to use. They've been doing it for rematches forever, why not use if for the fights that are explicitly with a trainer who keeps a lot of pokemon and only battles to test you? But they just...don't. There's plenty of times even in more recent gens where being able to skip a gym would make sense, but they stick an artificial wall in the way so you can't. Let us walk past the gym, then return later without it being a pushover.
1. It rewards exploration because you have to explore the safari zone to find it lol. So it is very much an exploration reward.
2. You completely missed the point. Houndour was never meant to be used for clearing the normal in game story. (Which by the time you get to Kanto is really just fanservice to walk through and enjoy exploring with the team you already beat the E4 with) It was meant to be something cool to find later to use in the tower and in pvp. Not everything is made for the "storyline" gameplay part of the game. There is more to the game, something that is very very very clear that a lot of you do not understand. Which was the second half of that quote that you decided to ignore; instead trying in invalidate something that was clearly intended for a purpose different then what you play the games for.
The point is, the Pokédex has a very handy feature where you can find the wild locations of a Pokémon you have already seen... but it doesn't work in the Safari Zone.
So you have seen Murkrow by storming into the Radio Tower. You like it and you check on the Pokédex where you can catch it... and it says "Unknown Location". You'd assume that means it is not available in the version you're playing.
It's extremely difficult, if not outright impossible, to explore an optional location when you don't know if it has something of interest.
If that were the case it should not be available for the storyline portion whatsoever.
So, let's talk about the Johto pokemon and what they're for.
152-160: Starters, you can use one family per playthrough.
Sentret, HootHoot, Ledyba, Spinarak, Hoppip, Aipom, Sunkern, : Derps. Fine early-game, but you want them replaced by the E4.
Chinchou, Natu, Mareep, Sudowoodo, Girafarig, Pineco, Quilfish, Heracross, Teddiursa, Swinub, Corsola, Phanpy, Stantler, Hitmontop, Miltank: Fine
Crobat, Bellossom, Espeon, Umbreon, Blissey: Evo of a Gen 1 mon you're likely bored with
Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Tyrogue, Elekid, Magby, Smoochum: Baby of a Gen 1 mon you're likely bored with.
Togepi, Unknown, Wobbuffet, Shuckle, Delibird, Smeargle: Gimmick
Slowking, Politoed, Scizor, Steelix, Kingdra, Porygon 2: Trade evo
Misdrevous, Murkrow, Slugma, Sneasel, Houndour, Larvitar: Kanto-only
Dunsparce, Snubbull, Marrill, Yanma, Remoraid, Mantine, Skarmory: Stupid-rare
Raikou, Entei, Suicune, Lugia, Ho-oh, Celebi : Legendary
Now, that list isn't perfect, there's a lot of stuff that can fit in multiple categories, and I'm pretty sure I changed my definition of stupid-rare at some point. That said, I tried to be as generous as possible(as evidenced by including Sudowoodo and Corsola in the 'fine' category instead of gimmick or derp). And definitely, there's playthroughs and players who can justify most of these. A 10% chance of finding a mon in a single body of water you have no reason to linger in isn't a reasonable thing for most 10 year olds, but it's simple with a guide, after all. But that's a pretty short list of new mons that are usable for the majority of the game. And like it or not, the actual story is what most players are going to play through.
Going from 150 new mons, many of which are perfectly usable, to 100 new mons, many of which are gimmicks, intentionally stupid to get, weak, or not actually new, is not going to make people happy. And if you like the games(like I do) and replay them a reasonable amount, I very quickly get bored of "well, I've got 4 kanto mons+my starter, time to grind for the one Johto mon I haven't used repeatedly before. Hope that 1% chance comes up soon!" It's just especially noticeable with the Kanto-only mons because they are impossible to use in-game without trading and are clearly designed to be things people want. The only non-Umbreon dark types, the only new Ghost-type, the Pseudo-legend, and Slugma...these are things people were clearly going to be interested in, and GF made sure you couldn't use them for what people ostensibly bought the games for.
I'm pretty sure people bought the game to catch them, not necessarily use them. Pokemon (all of them, not just the rare ones) are/were trophies first, friends second, and game pieces third.
I still stand by viewing Johto Pokemon in Kanto as a remnant of Lance being the halfway point of the story, back when Gold/Silver where formed as basically Red/Blue 2.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
What this misses is that Gold and Silver were not designed in the same way as newer games now are, in which the ethos is very much "look! A whole new region of new Pokemon! Get out and use them!" with some games even going so far as to make older ones outright unavailable to force you to do so.
GS were intended to be sequels, not standalones - and that's why attempts to compare them to RSE and DPP often don't entirely work. Most of the new Pokemon weren't intended to be found - at least not right away. The ethos was "the new species are unknown and elusive and hidden away. We're not even sure how to get them, but try it for yourself."
Seriously, I've still got the player's manual for Crystal, and the hints given in it are so mysterious as to be completely meaningless. One page talks about how Pokemon can now hold items, and casually recommends attaching items to Pokemon before you trade them so that you can swap them with your friends. The page ends with "There is a rumour that doing this will have an effect on Pokemon that can evolve..."
English is my first language, but that is still downright obtuse. That sentence implies that trading any Pokemon capable of evolving while holding an item (any item) will somehow power it up. Great, now why isn't the Gloom my cousin traded me while it was holding a Flower Mail any stronger?
The games themselves do give a slightly more direct indication of what to do. There's a hint to Porygon's evolution in Celadon City, for instance: a pair of boys are trading in the Dept Store. One of them says he's given the Pokemon he's trading an item as a fun surprise for his friend. The other says that he's wanted a Porygon for ages, but then is surprised to see it evolve. It doesn't tell you which item. Guess you'll just have to experiment and hope to get lucky.
It's the same thing with Espeon and Umbreon - a boy in Ecruteak City says "my friend's Eevee evolved into an Umbreon, but mine evolved into an Espeon. I wonder why? We were raising them the same way..." Nothing indicates that the time of day is relevant.
Yes, the Internet exists (and it's how I was eventually able to find out how to evolve things like Slowking and Porygon2) but it was not as ubiquitous as it is now, and rumours abounded much more so than they did today. One of the enduring Pokemon myths was always that pressing a combination of buttons (like A+B or A+Start) would make Pokeballs more effective. It's kind of died a death now that consoles are so different, but I heard that one for years. Nowadays, Pokemon still has ridiculously convoluted evolution methods and other mechanics (Galarian Yamask, Alcremie, and Sirfetch'd all come to mind) but the Internet being what it is today means that they'll probably be figured out and widely known on day 1.
I guess what I'm saying is that, yes, while 10% appearance rates and convoluted evolution methods are annoying, they were fitting for the time and the game that GF were attempting to make. Without widespread guides, players had to explore and experiment. Tracking down rare Pokemon became something you had to do with assistance from friends and family. And it was worth it; believe me when I say that the feeling of being the big man when you're the only eight year-old with a Scizor or an Umbreon is a particular kind of high.
Idk. I'm not saying GSC got everything right when it came to Pokemon distribution but I don't think it's as bad as it's often made out to be.
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My problem with justifying the Mon availability with Johto's Sequel mentality is you start out in the Johto region exclusively, and then head over to Kanto "post-game" as a Nostalgia trip or victory lap of sorts. Having the old characters and Mons reappear is a nice way to keep the two tied to each other, but there's a very blatant divide when you flat out will not see Kanto itself until after completing what was ostensibly the endgame of the previous entry. Part of it is a multimedia bias for me because in that era of Pokemon, Johto started the anime theme with "a whole new world" and such as the slogan to further emphasize this idea that there's a whole bunch of stuff to see that you wouldn't get in Kanto, which feels mismatched when so much of the available/viable roster in Johto consists of Kanto Pokemon or extensions of them (two of the biggest landmarks, the Slowpoke Well and the Lake of Rage, are based on Gen 1 mons for example) for the games.
Having some of the mons be rarer in Johto I can jive with, but having some species be flat out Kanto exclusive feels like it defeats the purpose. Imagine being ~7 year old me playing Pokemon Crystal for the first time. I have a Cyndaquil and my Wooper bud, plus a few random mons like Bellsprout or a Nidoran to fill out the team because I wanna see what else new there is. I go through a lot of the game seeing stuff like Jasmine's Steelix and thinking about how cool some would be to get. Then I get to the Radio Tower and the Rocket Admin pulls out a Houndour. Hey, I really like Dogs and this one has a cool design, I wanna go look for one of those! But the dex says I can't find this new Gen 2 mon anywhere in Johto, while Growlithe is available within the first 10% of the game. If there was a more common location in Kanto, sure, but why is a Gen 2 mon, which even in-universe they say was only recently discovered/documented, only able to be found back in the region that spent years if not decades with only 149 (excluding Mew and Mewtwo in lore consideration for a bit) known, and explicitly sent two Champion-tier trainers to document them all? Some others like Misdreavus almost have the opposite problem, where they barely if not never appear in Johto (or at all) if you don't know to hunt for them, which almost feels like the design team actually forgot them when designing Morty's team with literally the only Ghost line from Kanto. The swarm mechanic to see certain mons almost seems like it should be a thing in Kanto, not Johto. Perhaps as a trade-off of seeing them later, now they're common when swarming if you're looking for them for Dex completion instead of a team member?
On top of this, the Kanto appearance, as noted, guts their usability HARD for the majority of players. If you catch Houndour in Kanto, you have to train it up to par with the rest of a team that took on the Elite Four or at least is on a level to tackle all the new Gym Leader teams, so that's a time sink even if this was Gen 5 with Audino level grinding. You also need a purpose because you probably already have said competent team above, meaning Houndour is going to be reduced from "this is a cool option to try out" to "I want to use this specific mon to the point of what most would call inconvenience," which is probably narrower amongst the attention-span of Pokemon's school-kid target demographic in particular. In the time it takes to bring Houndour/Houndoom up to snuff you could be halfway through the Kanto content. PVP exists, but then that's still limited to "I REALLY want to use this specific mon" players who have friends to battle against.
The only mon I sort of give a pass on this front is Tyranitar, since it's the Pseudo-Legendary successor to Dragonite, which was hyped up and depicted as this borderline mythical legend of a Pokemon in Gen 1 with grandiose appearances and a very big battling prowess that you had to work to be able to use yourself. Tyranitar being left until the Super-boss area with Mt. Silver (expensive Game Corner availability notwithstanding) makes a degree of sense to me, as if being able to train one is now something you're ready for and may want to prove if you wanna fight the big guy atop the mountain.
tl;dr Gen 2's bad availability for so many Johto mons feels like Gen-Wunning that early (even if in this case it was more incompetence than marketing cynicism)
Having some of the mons be rarer in Johto I can jive with, but having some species be flat out Kanto exclusive feels like it defeats the purpose. Imagine being ~7 year old me playing Pokemon Crystal for the first time. I have a Cyndaquil and my Wooper bud, plus a few random mons like Bellsprout or a Nidoran to fill out the team because I wanna see what else new there is. I go through a lot of the game seeing stuff like Jasmine's Steelix and thinking about how cool some would be to get. Then I get to the Radio Tower and the Rocket Admin pulls out a Houndour. Hey, I really like Dogs and this one has a cool design, I wanna go look for one of those! But the dex says I can't find this new Gen 2 mon anywhere in Johto, while Growlithe is available within the first 10% of the game. If there was a more common location in Kanto, sure, but why is a Gen 2 mon, which even in-universe they say was only recently discovered/documented, only able to be found back in the region that spent years if not decades with only 149 (excluding Mew and Mewtwo in lore consideration for a bit) known, and explicitly sent two Champion-tier trainers to document them all? Some others like Misdreavus almost have the opposite problem, where they barely if not never appear in Johto (or at all) if you don't know to hunt for them, which almost feels like the design team actually forgot them when designing Morty's team with literally the only Ghost line from Kanto. The swarm mechanic to see certain mons almost seems like it should be a thing in Kanto, not Johto. Perhaps as a trade-off of seeing them later, now they're common when swarming if you're looking for them for Dex completion instead of a team member?
On top of this, the Kanto appearance, as noted, guts their usability HARD for the majority of players. If you catch Houndour in Kanto, you have to train it up to par with the rest of a team that took on the Elite Four or at least is on a level to tackle all the new Gym Leader teams, so that's a time sink even if this was Gen 5 with Audino level grinding. You also need a purpose because you probably already have said competent team above, meaning Houndour is going to be reduced from "this is a cool option to try out" to "I want to use this specific mon to the point of what most would call inconvenience," which is probably narrower amongst the attention-span of Pokemon's school-kid target demographic in particular. In the time it takes to bring Houndour/Houndoom up to snuff you could be halfway through the Kanto content. PVP exists, but then that's still limited to "I REALLY want to use this specific mon" players who have friends to battle against.
The only mon I sort of give a pass on this front is Tyranitar, since it's the Pseudo-Legendary successor to Dragonite, which was hyped up and depicted as this borderline mythical legend of a Pokemon in Gen 1 with grandiose appearances and a very big battling prowess that you had to work to be able to use yourself. Tyranitar being left until the Super-boss area with Mt. Silver (expensive Game Corner availability notwithstanding) makes a degree of sense to me, as if being able to train one is now something you're ready for and may want to prove if you wanna fight the big guy atop the mountain.
tl;dr Gen 2's bad availability for so many Johto mons feels like Gen-Wunning that early (even if in this case it was more incompetence than marketing cynicism)
Honestly...if they wanted a Kanto sequel, they should have started you IN Kanto
Then as you go through whatever campaign, you see Johto mons popping up, not too common, but not too rare
When you finally go to Johto, you'll then be introduced to a whole new bevy of Johto mons
Hurray, they were rare in Kanto, and now for your efforts in main campaign, you can find more post game with ease. It'd also make sense for Red to venture to a new region and use new mons, so you can have the final boss there too!
Then as you go through whatever campaign, you see Johto mons popping up, not too common, but not too rare
When you finally go to Johto, you'll then be introduced to a whole new bevy of Johto mons
Hurray, they were rare in Kanto, and now for your efforts in main campaign, you can find more post game with ease. It'd also make sense for Red to venture to a new region and use new mons, so you can have the final boss there too!
Come to think of it, the Gen 2 Pokémon distribution is the opposite of how they insist on only allowing Gen 1 Pokémon in Kanto in later games.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
I agree it's dumb that species like Houndour and Murkrow seemingly aren't native to their own region while Misdreavus is gated behind 16 badges. That shouldn't have been the case. Tyranitar does make sense but Misdreavus definitely doesn't.
The really annoying thing is that there were places to put all the missing species:
-Ilex Forest for Misdreavus, or really anywhere Gastly is found
-Burned Tower or Victory Road for Slugma (via Rock Smash boulders)
-Burned Tower for Houndour, or just at night on any of the grassy routes
-Ilex Forest for Murkrow, or again just at night on any of the grassy routes
Even if they were 10% or even 1% appearance, this would have been better.
As logical as this is, as we saw, there wasn't enough space to do both properly so you'd have had to rush through Kanto or make Johto even smaller. You'd probably end up with a reverse situation where Kanto's highest gym leader is at level 40 and all of Johto's gym leaders are at level 50.
...which games? LGPE? They only had Gen I Pokemon in them (bar Meltan) so that's kind of a given. FRLG put Wobbuffet in Cerulean Cave.
I think they meant that FRLG had extremely strict control on which Pokémon the players could obtain prior to the National Dex, ensuring the players could only use the original 151 even if they had an Gen 2 evolution like Crobat, Kingdra, and Porygon 2.
Scarf Greninja
Now I know what you're thinking "why would I use Scarf on Greninja when it already outspeeds almost everything?" That's true to some degree because of Greninja's base 122 speed most will opt for Specs or LO but the LO variant is easily chipped down limiting its turns and vulnerable to priority, The Specs Variant is extra weak to Scarfed Mons which are very common on Monotype and is walled by Chansey and Blissey on Mono Normal, The Scarf Set on the other hand can be Mixed with Gunk Shot or Low Kick as the physical move add U-turn for momentum then Two Special Moves which is Ice Beam (the one you'll use the most) then either Dark Pulse or Hydro Pump depending on your needs you also don't have to worry about it's damage output since a Modest Protean Super-Effective Move will probably OHKO and sweep when you remove that neutral resist in Monotype it also has the bonus effect of being unpredictable and can catch the opponent offguard when they're about to sweep with their +1 Speed Dragonite and can beat most common scarfers such as Kartana, Lele (when chipped), Blace, Gengar, Darmanitan, Victini, Thundurus-Therian, and Garchomp and can basically dominate any team waek to its moves since they're all STAB this makes Scarf Greninja one of the staples of Dark Type teams and Water Teams in a lesser degree.
Scarf Gren = Best Gren
So yeah that's my unpopular opinion.
Now I know what you're thinking "why would I use Scarf on Greninja when it already outspeeds almost everything?" That's true to some degree because of Greninja's base 122 speed most will opt for Specs or LO but the LO variant is easily chipped down limiting its turns and vulnerable to priority, The Specs Variant is extra weak to Scarfed Mons which are very common on Monotype and is walled by Chansey and Blissey on Mono Normal, The Scarf Set on the other hand can be Mixed with Gunk Shot or Low Kick as the physical move add U-turn for momentum then Two Special Moves which is Ice Beam (the one you'll use the most) then either Dark Pulse or Hydro Pump depending on your needs you also don't have to worry about it's damage output since a Modest Protean Super-Effective Move will probably OHKO and sweep when you remove that neutral resist in Monotype it also has the bonus effect of being unpredictable and can catch the opponent offguard when they're about to sweep with their +1 Speed Dragonite and can beat most common scarfers such as Kartana, Lele (when chipped), Blace, Gengar, Darmanitan, Victini, Thundurus-Therian, and Garchomp and can basically dominate any team waek to its moves since they're all STAB this makes Scarf Greninja one of the staples of Dark Type teams and Water Teams in a lesser degree.
Scarf Gren = Best Gren
So yeah that's my unpopular opinion.
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https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/monotype-past-generations.664/Scarf Greninja
Now I know what you're thinking "why would I use Scarf om Greninja when it already outspeeds almost everything?" That's true to some degree because of Greninjas base 122 speed most will opt for Specs or LO but the LO variant is easily chipped down limiting its turns and vulnerable to priority, The Specs Variant is extra weak to Scarfed Mons which are very common on Monotype and is walled by Chansey and Blissey on Mono Normal, The Scarf Set on the other hand can be Mixed with Gunk Shot or Low Kick as the physical move add U-turn for momentum then Two Special Moves which is Ice Beam (the one you'll use the most) then either Dark Pulse or Hydro Pump depending on your needs you also don't have to worry about it's Damage Output since a Modest Protean Super-Effective Move will probably ohko and sweep when you remove that neutral resist in Monotype it also has the bonus effect of being unpredictable and can catch the opponent offguard when they're about to sweep with their +1 Speed Dragonite and can beat most common scarfers such as Kartana, Lele (when chipped), Blace, Gengar, Darmanitan, Victini, Thundurus-Therian, and Garchomp and can basically dominate to any of it's moves since they're all STAB this makes Scarf Greninja one of the staples of Dark Type teams and Water Teams in a lesser degree.
Scarf Gren = Best Greninja
So yeah that's my unpopular opinion.
Orange Island is the section of Smogon dedicated to non-competitive Pokemon discussion.
Well...this is a thread for unpopular opinions and I think Scarf Greninja is underrated and therfore unpopular.
Plus the Monotype I'm referring to is Natdex Monotype so i don't think this will stick there and Scarf Greninja can be used even on Standard Natdex.