The De-Uberization.

[Aeroblacktyl]

If a Pokemon is CB'd, then you ought to know what your own Pokes are capable of taking damage is. If you realize that it's doing more than what a Scarfchomp should be doing, then you sure should surely know that it's CB. By being incompetent as a battler, this whole argument is moot cause you weren't going to beat the Garchomp in the first place.

Of course Garchomp was an example, but a horrible one.

Also Wobbuffet can just Encore the Recover, and just keep stalling until he regains his health back. Mirror Coat has what, 32 PP? I'd just keep MC after Encoring, gain my health, wait for Encore to end, Encore once more, then proceed to do whatever the hell I want depending on what Pokes are around.

 

[cim]

The idea is if something like Yache Berry Garchomp (who Starmie might be the team's only counter for...?) gets a Swords Dance or Salamence gets a DD or a SubSeeder starts up or a Smeargle Smeargles himself, you can just kind of give up then. Wobba is way overpowered, to say he is not is foolish.

 

[Jiggy-Ninja]

How in the hell? He can exploit in once, meaning, say, I bring a starmie, he switches in taking the Surf, starmie recovers, he encores it, switches in a sweeper and gets one turn to set up. Second time, this a) will be made much harder by the fact that Wobbuffet has lost life and b) will be much less useable, since your opponent will expect a Wobby switch-in into Starmie every time and can predict accordingly.

If you're going to use prediction in an argument, you have to accept that prediction goes both ways. Just as well as you could outpredict the Wobbuffet switch, the Wobbuffet user could outpredict your prediction.

Literally anything can be beaten with good enough prediction.

 

[Colonel M]

Good Lord, this thread is almost just full of nothing.

First off, allow me to say this. No, no, and NO!!! to Mew, Deoxys-LG, etc. Deoxys-S (or E for some of you) is good enough. Second place to perhaps be considered: between Dewless Lati@s, and if we want to go EXTREMELY far into this discussion maybe Wobbuffet... Considering anything else is just stupid. Ho-oh was discussed already and was said no, so don't bring that up either.

Mew for one can Baton Pass ANYTHING ALMOST! Calm Mind, Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, are you getting it yet? It's movepool is basically insane (remember Transform too, as he makes a better Ditto even). His 100 stats barely even come into the playbook, because to me that movepool alone keeps it up there. Is Mew counterable? No. Reason? Unpredictable movepool, it's just that simple. He's cool and all but... let's keep him where he belongs: Uber.

Manaphy with RainRest and Tail Glow also is just nuts. Name one, I dare, ONE POKEMON that can actually switch into Manaphy from OU. Thinking hard yet? The closest, perhaps, would be Blissey. Maybe Vaporeon if he carries Surf and Ice Beam, etc. He's just that hard to counter. Forget using Toxic to cripple him, as RainRest cancels it out.

We've discussed Darkrai. He's basically a better Gengar without the resists (minus Pursuit). I saw it mentioned here, alright?

Deoxys-LG can't be compared as a better Cresselia... per se. You see, his main disadvantage is his HP. However, he does have Recover, can lay Spikes OR Stealth Rock, and just do alot of other things. I don't think he should be considered at all.

Wobbuffet. Alright, I think personally the whole "Pokemon X counters Wobbuffet" is stupid alright. Some of you boneheads forgot one thing: Shadow Tag and Encore. If he Encore's your Swords Dance, what the hell can you do? Just sit there I guess until he switches to a counter. What about your pitiful attempt to switch out? Oh wait... you're trapped! Ah well, guess you can't do much except sit there and die when he grabs a counter against you. You could attack, but may though things could 2HKO Wobbuffet, guess what Counter and Mirror Coat could do back at you?... OHKO in other words. Once he switches out, you're still trapped THAT turn. He basically has a free switch into perhaps a BellyZard and you just lost since you're locked onto Swords Dance and BellyZard is free to set up his Substitute while you switch out, and then Belly Drum after the Substitute is broken, and finally sweep your ass into oblivion. Now what? Don't say the whole "you gotta sacrifice Pokemon Y to get Wobbuffet out" either. I could just wait until your Suicune attempts a Calm Mind and then switch Wobbuffet in. It's not that hard of a concept. Could you at least make a semi-intellignet post before rambling about "you can't switch into CB Chomp" because I wouldn't be stupid enough to do it in the first place. DUH.

 

[moi]

I like how almost everyone in this thread has argued about encore and prediction, without talking about one of the main reasons Wobbufet is so dangerous. His ability to do damage right back, double the force.

 

[Lyfsaho]

Except there won't be a next time because Bellyzard just tore through your team with two free turns to get in and set up on. Shadow Tag is unholy.

two free turns? You encore something that can't harm him (that list alone isn't very long), switch him in hoping SR isn't up, and the turn your opponent switches out, you get one free move. one. presumably, you sub, the opponent switches to a counter, and if you still even have enough hp left (again, no sr, even ss would suck) you can drum while I break your sub.

Manaphy with RainRest and Tail Glow also is just nuts. Name one, I dare, ONE POKEMON that can actually switch into Manaphy from OU. Thinking hard yet? The closest, perhaps, would be Blissey. Maybe Vaporeon if he carries Surf and Ice Beam, etc. He's just that hard to counter. Forget using Toxic to cripple him, as RainRest cancels it out.

Wow, I have to answer here. just wow. Have you ever used Manaphy. RainRest? So your Manaphy set would be... Rain Dance, Rest, Tail Glow, Surf? Lmao. You want to know what can switch into that? Any bulky water, anything with water absorb, anything with a x4 resist (kingdra, Ludicolo, Empoleon), CB Bliss, CMkou, jesus the list goes on.

Okay, now then. let's assume a) you're running a Rain Dance team, b) your opponent doesn't pack a Tyranitarr / Hippo / Aboma to screw it all up and c) your Rain lasts wrong enough to get Manaphy up and running with a set like: Rest, TG, Surf, Ice Beam/Energy Ball. He still lacks a move. If he doesn't pack Energy Ball, again, bulky waters, anything bulky with an Water / Ice resistance, wall him completely. If he doesn't pack Ice Beam, well, then its even worse - Salamence and Dragonite proceed to be able to counter him, as do Grass pokemon like Venusaur or Tangrowth, as do many other things.
In fact, I'd go as far as to say that Manaphy is probably one of the worst cases of four-moveset-syndrome in existence.

 

[Uiru]

Wouldn't the quickest way to determine Manaphy's tier be to compare it to the monsters already in OU? Tyranitar, Salamence and Garchomp come to mind; all 600 BST and none pissing away points in a stat they'll never use (Attack). You can have a solid guess at its moveset, which you can't do with any of those three. Tail Glow and Rest make it broken but only leave it two attack slots, and they have to be Elemental. I know Ty is mostly physical and Mence mostly elemental but a Dark Pulse or Dragon Claw from either isn't exactly a massage.

Plus, its HydroRest is owned by Sandstream and I was under the impression that absolutely everybody used Tyranitar these days. Even if not, outside of Ubers Kyogre doesn't exist and therefore you're using either a two-slot combo or a partner. None of these three need partners. And wouldn't one faster Thunder ruin Manaphy's day? Any sensible RD team might not be as much of a benefit as Manaphy thinks.

My opinion is that it's very strong, but that there are worse offenders. Manaphy Tail Glow (one turn) and Surf (two turns) can't be that much more broken than Garchomp Swords Dance (one turn) and Earthquake (two turns).

(Of course, my opinion is also based on the idea that you only get one Manaphy per copy of Ranger and you can't Synchronize for a sensible nature and also that Grass Knot TMs are hard to come by. Maybe he can be OU in the Engineer Tier.)

Two misc points. To the comedian who suggested putting Celebi in Ubers, sure! We can do that as soon as we put these three, Dragonite, Metagross, Blissey, Gyarados, Infernape, Shaymin, Raikou, Gengar, and Jirachi there too. Also, is Wynaut still in Ubers? I can't see Wynaut surviving more than one attack, but I'm not in the mood for numbers right now. It needs to be remembered that Shadow Tag took a few hits from ADV, namely that two Wobs can switch out, Struggle can't be Leftovers'd, and Shed Shell exists (not huge, but it's there). And God help the Wob who comes in on a Baton Pass/Mean Look&boost/U-turn user, unless they changed that too and no one told me.
~Uiru

 

[trader]

yes but at the top it says all BUT Mew and manaphy which makes it sound like you want all of them but those 2 moved down

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

You want to know what can switch into that? Any bulky water, anything with water absorb, anything with a x4 resist (kingdra, Ludicolo, Empoleon), CB Bliss, CMkou, jesus the list goes on..

Just wanted you to know I lol'ed. Also assuming you meant CM Bliss.

 

[Colonel M]

So? Maybe you can name a couple for RainRest, but try Tail Glow. Again, it's simple: you can't. RainRest is more wallish anyways, it's not meant for pure sweeping. As I've stated the closest is PERHAPS CM Bliss versus the Tail Glow set, and even so it's rarer to see in OU.

Go ahead and laugh, because technically I didn't make a huge mistake. You, Lyfsaho, have made quite a few in this topic ALONE. And if you want me to name another, here is one:

two free turns? You encore something that can't harm him (that list alone isn't very long), switch him in hoping SR isn't up, and the turn your opponent switches out, you get one free move. one. presumably, you sub, the opponent switches to a counter, and if you still even have enough hp left (again, no sr, even ss would suck) you can drum while I break your sub.

I could drum while you break my Substitute, but that doesn't stop me from sweeping. And before you get on with countering this, yes, you can technically have two free turns. Watch:


TURN 1:
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Garchomp's Attack sharply rose!
Wobbuffet used Encore!
Wobbuffet Encored Garchomp's Swords Dance!

TURN 2:
Wobbuffet switched out with Charizard!
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Garchomp's Attack sharply rose!

TURN 3:
Charizard used Substitute!
Charizard created a Substitute!
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Garchomp's Attack sharply rose!
Garchomp's Encore ended. (<-And this is assuming the worst case scenario)

TURN 4:
I drum, you break Substitute, I sweep.

Switching you say next?

TURN 3:
You switch Garchomp with "whatever"
Charizard used Substitute!

TURN 4:
You attack and break Substitute
Charizard used Belly Drum!

In other words, you're done. Either way it's a two free turns of set-up.

 

[Lyfsaho]

You want to know what can switch into that? Any bulky water, anything with water absorb, anything with a x4 resist (kingdra, Ludicolo, Empoleon), CB Bliss, CMkou, jesus the list goes on.

Just wanted you to know I lol'ed. Also assuming you meant CM Bliss.

Read my post above yours. I also lol'd. hard. xD.

edit: Colonel, please, read before you post. I answered your thing above. You want something which counters TG, Surf, Ice Beam, Energy Ball, a version MUCH easier to bring down?

CMBliss
Ludicolo
Abomasnow
Mantine
Tentacruel
CMRaikou

how about these, for starts.

 

[Colonel M]

Ok.

I have Tail Glow / Surf / Energy Ball / Ice Beam. I have Timid nature with 252 Special Attack EVs and also Life Orb. Ready?

And before you get too far, I'll assume Ludicolo, Tentacruel, and Mantine has 252 / 252 Positive spread.

Ludicolo suffers 44.78% - 52.75% from Ice Beam.
The worst that Ludicolo can do? Ok, he can do something I guess. SubSeeding won't last forever, however. Grass Knot will do nothing, and Energy Ball still won't do a whole lot unless you have a crapload of investment of Special Attack, which, in my case, you won't.

Abomasnow (4 HP) suffers 80.12% - 94.41% from Ice Beam.
Worst case scenario? Nothing, with Stealth Rock you're down for the count. Wood Hammer hurts obviously, but even so you're faster.

Mantine suffers 38.62% - 45.51% from Ice Beam.
Worst case scenario? Haze. That's it. Almost nothing else. 2HKO with Stealth Rock factored in.

Tentacruel suffers 33.52% - 39.29% from Energy Ball.
Worst case scenario? The only real thing that could be even close to threatening from Tentacruel is maybe Toxic Spikes at worst.

CMRaikou (252 HP) suffers 88.02% - 103.65% from Surf.
Tell me you're joking, ok?

 

[Dark Android]

I think all of those ubers, save Deoxys-S, should stay uber. I can speculate my reasons for my claim:

Deoxys-D: If your thinking Cresselia is the same as it, think again. Deoxys-D has better defenses, a reliable recovery move(Recover), it has a HUGE support movepool(Spikes, SR, Toxic, Cosmic Power), and it has Psycho Boost to make up for its shitty Sp. Attack.

Mew: This thing's movepool is gigantic. Seriously. It can Baton Pass ANY +2 Stat boost(SD=Atk, Barrier=Def, NP=Sp.Atk, Amnesia=Sp.Def, Rock Polish=Spe), plus, if it wanted to sweep, it has a florama of moves to choose from(Psychic, T-Bolt, EQ, Dark Pulse, Grass Knot, Flamethrower, Ice Beam), and it has a sick recovery move(Softboiled).

Manaphy: This thing is a beast in rain. It has a broken ability that allows it to use Rest in the rain, with no ill consequences. It also has Tail Glow to hideously boost its average-high Sp.Atk, and it can't be revenge killed easily. A Thunderbolt or Energy Ball will never OHKO Manaphy unless the wielder is holding Specs or LO, and Manaphy can OHKO them in return.

Wobbuffet: Wobby can trap anybody, Encore them, and Counter/Coat them for the kill. And as if you thought you could kill it in one shot, theres always the possibility of Focus Sash or a berry that halves SE damage to something. Statusing it won't work, as it will Encore the move, use Safeguard to prevent more teammates from recieving a status, then send in a cleric to rid Wobby of the status.

To make a long post short, All four Pokémon I listed in this post over-centralise the standard metagame, and should stay uber.

 

[Lyfsaho]

Ok.

I have Tail Glow / Surf / Energy Ball / Ice Beam. I have Timid nature with 252 Special Attack EVs and also Life Orb. Ready?

And before you get too far, I'll assume Ludicolo, Tentacruel, and Mantine has 252 / 252 Positive spread.

Ludicolo suffers 44.78% - 52.75% from Ice Beam.
The worst that Ludicolo can do? Ok, he can do something I guess. SubSeeding won't last forever, however. Grass Knot will do nothing, and Energy Ball still won't do a whole lot unless you have a crapload of investment of Special Attack, which, in my case, you won't.

Abomasnow (4 HP) suffers 80.12% - 94.41% from Ice Beam.
Worst case scenario? Nothing, with Stealth Rock you're down for the count. Wood Hammer hurts obviously, but even so you're faster.

Mantine suffers 38.62% - 45.51% from Ice Beam.
Worst case scenario? Haze. That's it. Almost nothing else. 2HKO with Stealth Rock factored in.

Tentacruel suffers 33.52% - 39.29% from Energy Ball.
Worst case scenario? The only real thing that could be even close to threatening from Tentacruel is maybe Toxic Spikes at worst.

CMRaikou (252 HP) suffers 88.02% - 103.65% from Surf.
Tell me you're joking, ok?

O_o my friend, what are you on?

Ludicolo, with your spread, as you say, isn't even a 4KO, as he is holding leftovers. Now, I switch into any move but Ice Beam, then Energy Ball from no sp.atk ludicolo will do 47.80% - 56.01% to Manaphy, a solid 2ko. 252 HP 252 SP.DEF Ludicolo takes what, you say??? He takes 22.80% - 26.65% from timid max sp.atk Life Orb Manaphy's Ice Beam. Thats laughable.

Look at the smogon coverage of Abomasnow, located here. http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/abomasnow look closely under the "Mixed Attacker Set" and then calculate how much an Ice Beam does to that. Or a Wood Hammer does to you. I rest my case.

Mantine, worst case scenario is haze??? Have you ever heard of Mirror Coat??? Manaphy, Timid with MAXED OUT special attack (3 TG's) has a 0% chance of OHKO'ing max hp / sp.def Mantine, who then OHKO's back with Mirror Coat.

Tentacruel's worst case scenario is toxic spikes??? WTF??? Mirror Coat again, same situation as Mantine- even after 3 TG's, Manaphy has a 0% chance of OHKO'ing Tenta- who OHKO's back.

CMRaikou, a joke? LOL. You have Manaphy in, I switch in Raikou. Now, assuming your best case scenario, I either take a Surf or you TG on my switch. Now, next turn, I'm faster, I'll CM, and you will either hit me with a Surf or TG, neither of which can KO me. Turn after, I OHKO you.


All of these counter arguments by you were a joke, quite simply put.

 

[Brawley]

Ugh I disagree with all of them accept wobbufect and deoxy-e. Deoxys-e is a good standard. Wobbufect would be okay, and wobbufect can be 2hkoed by a lot of stuff. Anyways Mew is just too good and unpredictable for standard, you may be expecting a all out attacker, and then get hit with a staller set. Manaphy seems godly in the rain, and that would mean a huge raise in rain dance teams, and dexoys-s is just a better cressilia.

 

[footballfanatic]

Ok.

I have Tail Glow / Surf / Energy Ball / Ice Beam. I have Timid nature with 252 Special Attack EVs and also Life Orb. Ready?

And before you get too far, I'll assume Ludicolo, Tentacruel, and Mantine has 252 / 252 Positive spread.

Ludicolo suffers 44.78% - 52.75% from Ice Beam.
The worst that Ludicolo can do? Ok, he can do something I guess. SubSeeding won't last forever, however. Grass Knot will do nothing, and Energy Ball still won't do a whole lot unless you have a crapload of investment of Special Attack, which, in my case, you won't.

Abomasnow (4 HP) suffers 80.12% - 94.41% from Ice Beam.
Worst case scenario? Nothing, with Stealth Rock you're down for the count. Wood Hammer hurts obviously, but even so you're faster.

Mantine suffers 38.62% - 45.51% from Ice Beam.
Worst case scenario? Haze. That's it. Almost nothing else. 2HKO with Stealth Rock factored in.

Tentacruel suffers 33.52% - 39.29% from Energy Ball.
Worst case scenario? The only real thing that could be even close to threatening from Tentacruel is maybe Toxic Spikes at worst.

CMRaikou (252 HP) suffers 88.02% - 103.65% from Surf.
Tell me you're joking, ok?

Where the hell did you do your damage calcs?

Life Orb, Max Sp. Attack(Neutral nature) Manaphy does maximum 26% to Ludicolo. Even after a TG it's not a 2HKO. So, while you attack twice and lose 20% from Life Orb you get hit for while you get hit for 65% min from a Ludicolo with neutral nature and 0 EVs. I'm not going to address your other calcs because this one was so off.

Who would run Life Orb on Manaphy anyway? Bliss would absolutely demolish a Life Orb Manaphy too.

 

[IggyBot]

Plus, its HydroRest is owned by Sandstream and I was under the impression that absolutely everybody used Tyranitar these days.

I'd like to know how HydroRest is owned by Sandstorm, when, if you're running HydroRest, you can simply Rain Dance again, and eliminate Tyranitar's Sandstorm?

 

[Stall]

I'd like to know how HydroRest is owned by Sandstorm, when, if you're running HydroRest, you can simply Rain Dance again, and eliminate Tyranitar's Sandstorm?

So you're giving Tar a free turn to attack/set-up?

 

[IggyBot]

So you're giving Tar a free turn to attack/set-up?

Even if Tyranitar attacks or Dragon Dances, it can't OHKO a no defense / no HP Manaphy. If it's CB, you can simply either Rest or attack next turn. Even with 252 HP, Tyranitar can be OHKO'd by a neutral nature Manaphy in the Rain. If Tyranitar Dragon Dances, you can just attack it and KO while taking the hit.

 

[evolutia]

I'd like to know how HydroRest is owned by Sandstorm, when, if you're running HydroRest, you can simply Rain Dance again, and eliminate Tyranitar's Sandstorm?

A Tyranitar can only beat a HydroRest Manaphy if it switches in on the turn Manaphy rests, nulling Rain Dance and setting up Sandstorm rendering it unable to cure it's status.

 

[footballfanatic]

So you're giving Tar a free turn to attack/set-up?

It's hilarious that people are stating that giving poke ONE free turn to setup is so gamebreaking that it makes Wobbuffet undebatably Uber, and then other people see no problem in giving T-tar ONE free turn to set up.

Also, I'd seriously lawl at a Manaphy that tried to HydroRest on its own.

Rest/Rain dance takes away two moveslots(and most likely leftovers as well), then you can go for Aqua Glow/Surf and get raped by Water Absorb, or anything that resists water. Or you can go for Surf/Ice Beam or Energy Ball(Grass Knot) in which case you still get walled be a massive amount of pokes.

 

[Aint No Sunshine]

Personally, Mew shouldn't be classified as a Uber. Neither should Wobbuffet or Wynaut. Wynaut and Wobbuffet can do nothing but wall and reflect. Status attacks takes it down easily. Mew is too complicated with movesets and hard to predict, though, does terrible in Ubers, but good in OU. Strangely enough. The Deoxys forms are all Uber in my opinion. Only played against Speed Deoxys forms, all of which have swept me... there's a good reason as to what's banned and what's not.

Fail. You can't say that something is "Too weak for ubers". You can only say that it's too strong for OU. Ubers is a banlist for OU. If something's too strong for OU, it goes there. Kinda like how BL is to UU.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I wish everyone would stop quoting Deoxys's stats as the reason its better than Cresselia, especially since Dragontamer already did the math (reading is fundamental). It's better because of knockoff, Spikes, and Recover, although after seeing Dragontamer's Calcs I'm actually not against Deoxys-D in OU anymore, as its actually a little less durable than Cress. And no one cares about Manaphy's hydrorest set. Everyone's complaining about the Surf/Icebeam/Grassknot/Tail Glow set that destroyed teams back when RHPERIOR was thought to be a god. Seriously, give it a chance. Hail wasn't thought of, Gyaravire was the hottest thing then (it hits 12 types SE!!!), and most Salamences were still physical. The game's evolved since then and we can't keep looking to outdated tests. And honestly, as far as the Mew bitching goes, it's been said: TAUNT. Deoxys-S, Infernape, Gyarados after a dance, Ttar after a dance, Weavile, Ambipom, AND Floatzel all taunt and are faster than max speed Mew. And the sweeper sets are average at best due to their lack of STAB.

 

[Lyfsaho]

It's hilarious that people are stating that giving poke ONE free turn to setup is so gamebreaking that it makes Wobbuffet undebatably Uber, and then other people see no problem in giving T-tar ONE free turn to set up.

Also, I'd seriously lawl at a Manaphy that tried to HydroRest on its own.

Rest/Rain dance takes away two moveslots(and most likely leftovers as well), then you can go for Aqua Glow/Surf and get raped by Water Absorb, or anything that resists water. Or you can go for Surf/Ice Beam or Energy Ball(Grass Knot) in which case you still get walled be a massive amount of pokes.

Qft.

 

[Stall]

football, I'm in the OU-Wobb camp. In fact, I was making your exact point, just didn't make it as clear.