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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
Hmm I think this mechanic would throw off balancing in a way
Flying types being immune to ground is part of the type effectiveness chart which should be balanced in and off itself (I mean it isn't but it's supposed to be). Levitate by being an ability foregoes the chart, but balances itself out by being an ability. The Mon isn't effected by ground types, but doesn't have any pros beyond that, other abilities could be better and by that, Levitate would have also have some opportunity cost
If a Mon is just in effected by ground type moves without being a flying type or having this trait as an ability, I don't think that would be balanced, even if the results from it weren't overpowered Mons.
I also think that it would overcomplicate some aspects of the game. Now you don't just have to remember the type chart, abilities, certain items and moves, but also some mechanic
Flying types being immune to ground is part of the type effectiveness chart which should be balanced in and off itself (I mean it isn't but it's supposed to be). Levitate by being an ability foregoes the chart, but balances itself out by being an ability. The Mon isn't effected by ground types, but doesn't have any pros beyond that, other abilities could be better and by that, Levitate would have also have some opportunity cost
If a Mon is just in effected by ground type moves without being a flying type or having this trait as an ability, I don't think that would be balanced, even if the results from it weren't overpowered Mons.
I also think that it would overcomplicate some aspects of the game. Now you don't just have to remember the type chart, abilities, certain items and moves, but also some mechanic
I wouldn't replace Levitate with something else, but I would create some explicit status called "Airborne", which gives all the traits Levitate already has, but making it shared with things like the Flying-type and Magnet Rise.
Like, instead of describing Levitate with "By floating in the air, the Pokémon receives full immunity to all Ground-type moves.", instead make it "The Pokémon floats in the air and becomes Airborne".
And then, in the status section, add an "Airborne" tag that says "The Pokémon is immune to Ground-type moves, Arena Trap, Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web" (and I may be forgetting some other effect). Then you can simplify things like Smack Down by saying "removes Airborne trait from the target".
It could be done for some other effects as well, such as something like "Untrappable" for Ghost-types and Pokémon holding a Shed Shell.
PS: Someone beat me to it :P
But basically that, "condensing" similar effects into a shared trait.
Like, instead of describing Levitate with "By floating in the air, the Pokémon receives full immunity to all Ground-type moves.", instead make it "The Pokémon floats in the air and becomes Airborne".
And then, in the status section, add an "Airborne" tag that says "The Pokémon is immune to Ground-type moves, Arena Trap, Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web" (and I may be forgetting some other effect). Then you can simplify things like Smack Down by saying "removes Airborne trait from the target".
It could be done for some other effects as well, such as something like "Untrappable" for Ghost-types and Pokémon holding a Shed Shell.
PS: Someone beat me to it :P
But basically that, "condensing" similar effects into a shared trait.
Realistically speaking there is no practical solution to the "Levitate" problem.
You can't make it an intrinsic property like ghost untrappability, because "levitating" isnt linked to a type, nor even to a body feature, as there are plenty of winged pokemon that aren't flying type, and plenty of levitating pokemon that don't levitate.
One very important feature Pokemon has tried to maintain over the years is readability. Outside of numeric shenenigans like IV and EVs (which they've been slowly trying to make more easy to understand at a glance, too), every mechanic is generally pretty easy to tell by just looking at a pokemon.
They've even added graphic indication of effectiveness/supereffectiveness in order to help people quickly know if their attacks will connect without having to check the pokemon type on the other side.
While you will know by default that a flying type is immune to ground, or (after reading about it in the tutorials or experiencing it), you'll likely figure that ghost types are immune to trapping or say, rock types take no damage from sandstorm and gain increased special defense.
However, you will never have a quick direct way to know "this pokemon is immune to ground type" if it was to become a intrinsic aspect that isnt linked to the type or ability.
(I would also add that, while rare, certain pokemon having Levitate + another ability actually allow for mind games where you won't know if they are immune to ground or not, similarly to how you would have to sometimes guess about a water absorb / storm drain or a lightning rod, and by making it innate you'd be taking away this mechanic).
You can't make it an intrinsic property like ghost untrappability, because "levitating" isnt linked to a type, nor even to a body feature, as there are plenty of winged pokemon that aren't flying type, and plenty of levitating pokemon that don't levitate.
One very important feature Pokemon has tried to maintain over the years is readability. Outside of numeric shenenigans like IV and EVs (which they've been slowly trying to make more easy to understand at a glance, too), every mechanic is generally pretty easy to tell by just looking at a pokemon.
They've even added graphic indication of effectiveness/supereffectiveness in order to help people quickly know if their attacks will connect without having to check the pokemon type on the other side.
While you will know by default that a flying type is immune to ground, or (after reading about it in the tutorials or experiencing it), you'll likely figure that ghost types are immune to trapping or say, rock types take no damage from sandstorm and gain increased special defense.
However, you will never have a quick direct way to know "this pokemon is immune to ground type" if it was to become a intrinsic aspect that isnt linked to the type or ability.
(I would also add that, while rare, certain pokemon having Levitate + another ability actually allow for mind games where you won't know if they are immune to ground or not, similarly to how you would have to sometimes guess about a water absorb / storm drain or a lightning rod, and by making it innate you'd be taking away this mechanic).
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I think the other issue with this hypothetical intrinsic approach is that, visually, it locks the design and animation of the Pokemon to appear a certain way if there is not a consistent mechanical label like an Ability suggests.
For example: We have all the infamous Flying-Animations some Pokemon got in Gen 6 because of Sky Battles, because on top of Flying or Levitate for an ability, they had to be presented visually off the ground. If Levitate stopped being a sign-post for Ground Immunity on non-Flying types, then you end up exacerbating things like the Gengar disconnect (which I'm almost convinced is why they downgraded base Gengar from Levitate to Cursed Body in Gen 7). Pokemon that they want to make immune to Ground then MUST be airborne and/or be Flying-Type, the former raising questions like Magnezone floating without Magnet Rise, while the latter is very restrictive on type-design. Also tangentially related, remember how Ferroseed's quick spinning sprite-animation led people to ask about it learning Rapid Spin before they literally planted its 3D model to be stationary?
And we can't act like Levitate is a strictly inferior way to implement this interaction from a design stand-point either. It brings the ground based immunities (which besides EQ also includes Spiked Entry Hazards), does NOT add Flying's weaknesses (Electric and Ice not being weaknesses are a major boon defensively, as is Rock/Stealth Rock), and indirectly allows other typing benefits (having both Types for a defensive profile or STAB options on offense). If Levitate literally made the Pokemon behave as a Flying-Type does then I could see the case, but it is clearly designed to have a give-and-take in which the "take" is your ability slot. If anything, Levitate is one of the strongest abilities in the game, which might have more a hand in its scarcity overall than any flavor reason.
For example: We have all the infamous Flying-Animations some Pokemon got in Gen 6 because of Sky Battles, because on top of Flying or Levitate for an ability, they had to be presented visually off the ground. If Levitate stopped being a sign-post for Ground Immunity on non-Flying types, then you end up exacerbating things like the Gengar disconnect (which I'm almost convinced is why they downgraded base Gengar from Levitate to Cursed Body in Gen 7). Pokemon that they want to make immune to Ground then MUST be airborne and/or be Flying-Type, the former raising questions like Magnezone floating without Magnet Rise, while the latter is very restrictive on type-design. Also tangentially related, remember how Ferroseed's quick spinning sprite-animation led people to ask about it learning Rapid Spin before they literally planted its 3D model to be stationary?
And we can't act like Levitate is a strictly inferior way to implement this interaction from a design stand-point either. It brings the ground based immunities (which besides EQ also includes Spiked Entry Hazards), does NOT add Flying's weaknesses (Electric and Ice not being weaknesses are a major boon defensively, as is Rock/Stealth Rock), and indirectly allows other typing benefits (having both Types for a defensive profile or STAB options on offense). If Levitate literally made the Pokemon behave as a Flying-Type does then I could see the case, but it is clearly designed to have a give-and-take in which the "take" is your ability slot. If anything, Levitate is one of the strongest abilities in the game, which might have more a hand in its scarcity overall than any flavor reason.
I've never understood why this idea comes up so frequently.
If you want to be truly consistent, and give intrinsic Levitate to every Pokemon who's model never touches the ground, you get the following issues:
1) Having a type interaction tied to a Pokemon's design is a huge design constraint.
2) It's a balance problem because a significant percentage of Steel-types have floating models
3) It leads to outright confusing conclusions, since basically every fish Pokemon has a floating model
If you're just arbitrarily picking and choosing, I don't see why it's any better than the status quo.
If you're able to accept that a Zekrom bearing down with full force on Wooper does no damage just because it's muddy, I don't see why you can't accept that Earthquake can hit a Pokemon that appears to be levitating.
If you want to be truly consistent, and give intrinsic Levitate to every Pokemon who's model never touches the ground, you get the following issues:
1) Having a type interaction tied to a Pokemon's design is a huge design constraint.
2) It's a balance problem because a significant percentage of Steel-types have floating models
3) It leads to outright confusing conclusions, since basically every fish Pokemon has a floating model
If you're just arbitrarily picking and choosing, I don't see why it's any better than the status quo.
If you're able to accept that a Zekrom bearing down with full force on Wooper does no damage just because it's muddy, I don't see why you can't accept that Earthquake can hit a Pokemon that appears to be levitating.
TBF, the only canonical examples are Weezing(-G) and Bronzong, and any non-Levitate abilities worth using on the Weezings automatically announce themselves. Also, immunity abilities are strong enough that they're usually the best choice on a given Pokemon, so it's difficult to make alternates workable (and may be a bit unhealthy as well, as shown by CAP's Equilibra, because you're forced to always act as if it has the immunity ability until it's revealed otherwise).
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Duskull has Levitate and another ability as well... which also announces itself upon switch-in.
Also, now I'm wondering if the reason why the Magnets don't have Levitate is for balance, because every Pokémon with a bajillion resistances needs a double weakness to balance it out.
Also, now I'm wondering if the reason why the Magnets don't have Levitate is for balance, because every Pokémon with a bajillion resistances needs a double weakness to balance it out.
I think the main reason is just because it already has Magnet Pull, combined with the fact that all Pokemon that were given Levitate in the generation that abilities were introduced had Levitate as their only ability. Bronzong comes along a generation later, and it's the only one that breaks this rule until Duskull gets Frisk as an HA in Gen 6 and Weezing gets Neutralizing Gas in Gen 8.
I feel like The Levitate Debate is easier to resolve if you just think of Abilities as magic powers rather than natural expressions of a Pokemon's physical traits (which I think I've talked about before?). Sure there are plenty of Pokemon that levitate, but that doesn't mean they all capital-L Levitate. I'm sure that every Heliolisk has dry skin, but they don't all have Dry Skin. Slaking clearly has huge power, but it doesn't have Huge Power (thank god).
Obviously most Abilities are connected to the natural anatomy or behaviour of a Pokemon species in some way, but imo the way they function requires a handwave-y supernatural explanation. Otherwise, you're stuck trying to logically explain why Wooper can be wet and slimy enough to stop explosions or wet and slimy enough to be healed whenever it gets hit by water, but not both.
Obviously most Abilities are connected to the natural anatomy or behaviour of a Pokemon species in some way, but imo the way they function requires a handwave-y supernatural explanation. Otherwise, you're stuck trying to logically explain why Wooper can be wet and slimy enough to stop explosions or wet and slimy enough to be healed whenever it gets hit by water, but not both.
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Would also explain stuff like Trace and Skill Swap.
Levitate is kind of a relic of how abilities used to be designed - with a handful of exceptions, such as Drizzle and Drought, abilities used to be widely distributed over a great number of Pokemon, a trend which generally continued up until Generation 5 (even with the introduction of hidden abilities). While Abilities were certainly a notable aspect of Pokemon design, the reasoning of giving a Pokemon their abilities was different.
As of about Generation 6, new abilities tend to be much more unique, with almost every single line from 6 onwards having a unique ability. Far from being simply a part of a Pokemon's design, abilities tend to be much more integrated with their overall aesthetic and personality - just take a look at 'mons such as Aegislash Mimikyu, or Cramorant for the most visually obvious examples of this. Essentially, the philosophy shifted from abilities being designed, and then applied to Pokemon that suit the ability, to abilities being designed in tandem with a Pokemon (with other suiting abilities being applied too, of course). This is especially true when you look at Levitate - over the past 3 generations, only 'mon has Levitate, Vikavolt (and G-Weezing, but regional variants are somewhat different in this respect).
I'm not saying one approach is necessarily better than the other, as I think both ways of tackling abilities have merit, but this discussion of Levitate and making it a property or characteristic of sorts kinda reminds me of how abilities... well, used to be kinda like that. If such a property system were to be implemented, it could be an interesting way to bring back this old ability design philosophy in a new way, but they'd have to be careful about both balance and clarity to the player - something that abilities alone can often struggle with.
As of about Generation 6, new abilities tend to be much more unique, with almost every single line from 6 onwards having a unique ability. Far from being simply a part of a Pokemon's design, abilities tend to be much more integrated with their overall aesthetic and personality - just take a look at 'mons such as Aegislash Mimikyu, or Cramorant for the most visually obvious examples of this. Essentially, the philosophy shifted from abilities being designed, and then applied to Pokemon that suit the ability, to abilities being designed in tandem with a Pokemon (with other suiting abilities being applied too, of course). This is especially true when you look at Levitate - over the past 3 generations, only 'mon has Levitate, Vikavolt (and G-Weezing, but regional variants are somewhat different in this respect).
I'm not saying one approach is necessarily better than the other, as I think both ways of tackling abilities have merit, but this discussion of Levitate and making it a property or characteristic of sorts kinda reminds me of how abilities... well, used to be kinda like that. If such a property system were to be implemented, it could be an interesting way to bring back this old ability design philosophy in a new way, but they'd have to be careful about both balance and clarity to the player - something that abilities alone can often struggle with.
Also Pignite, Emboar, Klefki, Primarina, Keldeo, Skarmory, Corviknight and few others completely walls it.
And SD means it won't run Low Kick which means Cobalion, Melmetal, Incineroar and many others would also wall it.
Plus it weakness to Bullet Punch and Mach Punch means it could be easilt revenge killed.
Tough Claws weavile doesn't really look that impressive. It would not even be a top 3 mon in OU if it was available much less "broken".
And if it run adamant instead of jolly then it would easily gets revenge killed. Tough claws weavile is not even close to broken.
High HP ain’t gonna cut it in OU if they don’t have actually good Defense and / or Special Defense, in this Pignite and Emboar just can’t switch into Weavile at all.
People don’t want to be forced into running priority, because if they have to, it’s gonna streamroll real fast against them if their priority user faints.
Weavile is already S- in OU atm; neither Pressure or Pickpocket do anything of real value consistently for Weavile, as both don’t fit well with Weavile’s fast, physically hard-hitting but frail stat spread. Triple Axel, while not 100% consistent, give it a STAB move that reaches 120 effective BP a lot of the time. Tough Claws will give it 156 effective BP on all three hits, and 78 with only two hits.
Knock Off reaches an effective 126.8 BP on top of knocking off the opponent’s item, and 84 effective BP on foe with no or Knock Off immune items is still good for STAB. This is on top of Weavile having it’s own priority, Ice Shard, reaching 52 which isn’t too much on it’s own but can cripple any potential counters, especially if Weavile used Sword Dance beforehand.
Access of Tough Claws is one of the reasons why Weavile got banned from AAA (Almost Any Ability).
Ah yes, Emboar and Klefki, my favorite OU pokemon. None of the mons you listed want to take or switch into a +2 Triple Axel or Knock Off (except for Pignite (lol)) and can easily be chipped with hazards to get into a more favorable range. Here are some calcs (keep in mind that none of these mons want to run max defense max HP except for Skarmory and Klefki in the first place):
+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 210-249 (57.6 - 68.4%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Keldeo: 186-219 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- approx. 95.7% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 279-327 (83.5 - 97.9%) -- approx. 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 336-399 (84 - 99.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Emboar: 225-267 (53 - 62.9%) -- approx. 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 183-216 (57.5 - 67.9%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
On top of this, Weavile is already a top-3 mon in SWSH OU.
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252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 52 HP / 4 Def Emboar: 252-300 (67.3 - 80.2%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 198-234 (61.3 - 72.4%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Primarina: 228-270 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 207-246 (61.9 - 73.6%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 273-324 (68.2 - 81%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Klefki takes 2 but dies with even a little bit of chip, which is a problem when you consider its lack of recovery, and can only cripple with Thunder Wave in return.
My brother in Christ, Weavile is literally a top 4 mon in OU without Tough Claws. What fucking game are you even playing?
I've already talked about my disinterest of changing the type chart to balance weaker type, but of all of the more popular proposed changes, I believe Ice has no business resisting Water. I'm not talking flavorfully, because you could bend the type chart in all sorts of ways if you use real life (Fire could vaporize Water, Steel could cut Grass, etc.) I'm talking purely for gameplay. Oh neat Ice can switch into Water types now? Guess what? Water resists Ice too. Now the game is stallier than it already is. Freeze-Dry exists? Not for Physical Ice mons, and of the Special Ice mons with it, a handful of them already resist Water, and a bunch of the remaining ones are junkers. Plus as we've seen in Gen 8, Game Freak is not afraid of tossing out established moves like Pursuit and Return to shake up the meta, so Freze-Dry is never safe. I only say this because every time I get into this topic, the (many) proponents for this change are staunchly grounded on this buff being nothing but positive for the game when I really don't see it. What am I missing here? I wanna give the benefit of the doubt, but it just feels like their opinion is "WolfeyVGC said this Ice buff would be good, so it must be good."
To close the Weavile thread:
1. Current Weavile is very overrated (still good though), not top 3 Mon for me and wouldn't put in S- rank.
2. Pressure is actually viable with Sub SD, it stalls some Mons easily. In-game it's even better with Sub-Protect, especially in Nuzlocke runs, one of the best offensive Mons you could use.
3. Tough Claws Weavile would be broken, no question asked. Most of the few Mons that would check a Band variant, absolutely hate losing their item to Knock Off.
There are many Mons whose design (Stats, Abilities or Movepool) I would change, but Weavile specifically is exactly as good as want it to be, it doesn't need major boosts or nerfs (except maybe losing Protect and Sub when Pokemon designers/balancers realize that not every Mon should learn those moves, just like happened with Toxic in SS).
1. Current Weavile is very overrated (still good though), not top 3 Mon for me and wouldn't put in S- rank.
2. Pressure is actually viable with Sub SD, it stalls some Mons easily. In-game it's even better with Sub-Protect, especially in Nuzlocke runs, one of the best offensive Mons you could use.
3. Tough Claws Weavile would be broken, no question asked. Most of the few Mons that would check a Band variant, absolutely hate losing their item to Knock Off.
There are many Mons whose design (Stats, Abilities or Movepool) I would change, but Weavile specifically is exactly as good as want it to be, it doesn't need major boosts or nerfs (except maybe losing Protect and Sub when Pokemon designers/balancers realize that not every Mon should learn those moves, just like happened with Toxic in SS).
My brother in Christ, Weavile is literally a top 4 mon in OU without Tough Claws. What fucking game are you even playing?
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No it's not. It is 8th based on usage rate.
https://www.porydex.com/stats/current
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- approx. 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 144-171 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- approx. 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Tapu Fini: 153-180 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also Pex
And there are many mons like Urshifu-R, Blaziken, Keldeo, Scizor who could take 1 hit from it and revenge kill it in return.
+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 144 Def Cobalion: 171-204 (44.3 - 52.8%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Incineroar: 162-195 (41.1 - 49.4%) -- approx. 3HKO
And what's wrong with that?
Not as broken as Lando-T is or for that matter the coming Ursaluna will be
I made a post about Legendary Pokémon. As for who should lose their status, it's a case-by-case thing. For example, I won't be surprised of the legendary birds lose their Legendary status.
But then... How would we call the no-longer-legendary birds?
I mean, the only official title they were ever given as a group in-game was from a Birdkeeper in Gen I who called them the "Winged Mirages", so in a hypothetical situation like the one you implied we could just call them that.