Unpopular opinions

Also re: the talk about the Water type being oversaturated: Yeah, I agree with that. I'm glad that they've been more willing to add aquatic creatures that aren't necessarily Water type, like Stunfisk, Dragalgae, or Grapploct - it's a step in the right direction for sure.
I wouldn’t say the Clubbopus line being a good example due to being pure Fighting… from a Generation that already gave us two additional pure Fighting-type lines (Galarian Farfetch’d and Falinks), alongside Kubfu before evolving and Zamazenta without the Rusty Shield held. I definitely agree with Stunfisk and Dragalge, and I’ll like to add the Inkay line due to being based of squids, traditionally aquatic animals.
 
I wouldn’t say the Clubbopus line being a good example due to being pure Fighting… from a Generation that already gave us two additional pure Fighting-type lines (Galarian Farfetch’d and Falinks), alongside Kubfu before evolving and Zamazenta without the Rusty Shield held.
Remember when we thought dexit would allow a rotation of Pokemon to prevent overlapping families from having to compete with each, and then Sw/Sh gave us the Machop, Hitmon, and Timburr lines alongside Sawk and Throh in the base version. Does anyone even remember that Lucario is in the base game?
 
Buff Golduck
Water starters are weirdly hit miss. Blastoise underperforms compared to Charizard and Venu, Feraligatr had that small niche of a Skarmbliss counter but had poor stab, Swampert was super good, Empoleon was decent despite being overshadowed by Infernape, Samurott was disappointing, Greninja was bonkers, Primarina was better than other starters but still faulty, and Intellion is overshadowed by Libero Cinderace and Grassy Glide Rilaboom

It's fascinating despite Water being so good of a type
 
Squirtle and Totodile are by far the best Pokémon in their respective generations for in-game, so there's that for them at least.

May as well throw this out on the topic of in-game: Abra line is overrated for in-game runs. It's consistently rated as a high-top tier Pokémon in the in-game tier lists when it's typically underleveled, requires switch training to grind, lacks coverage, and is very squishy physically. Even in GSC where it gets elemental punches and can train itself, it comes at level 10 when Whitney's team is 18-20 and you can reasonably have a starter in the early 20s at this point, so there's little practical application to invest in Abra if your goal is efficiency.
 
Squirtle and Totodile are by far the best Pokémon in their respective generations for in-game, so there's that for them at least.

May as well throw this out on the topic of in-game: Abra line is overrated for in-game runs. It's consistently rated as a high-top tier Pokémon in the in-game tier lists when it's typically underleveled, requires switch training to grind, lacks coverage, and is very squishy physically. Even in GSC where it gets elemental punches and can train itself, it comes at level 10 when Whitney's team is 18-20 and you can reasonably have a starter in the early 20s at this point, so there's little practical application to invest in Abra if your goal is efficiency.
All I want for christmas is a WTF button. :pikuh:

Bro, GSC Abra is literally the most busted in-game mon EVER.

It being slightly underleveled is irrelevant when it's immediately throwing punches like prime Mike Tyson off 105 SpA with breakneck speed compared to everything at that point in the game. Johto's level curve means it's not severely underleveled either and there are plenty of trainers for it to catch up.
Did you know Psychic runs through Johto and Kanto like a hot knife through butter?

That was a straight up crazy take. :totodiLUL:
 
It being slightly underleveled is irrelevant when it's immediately throwing punches like prime Mike Tyson off 105 SpA with breakneck speed compared to everything at that point in the game. Johto's level curve means it's not severely underleveled either and there are plenty of trainers for it to catch up.
Did you know Psychic runs through Johto and Kanto like a hot knife through butter?
You know, this just brought back a memory of me having Hitmonchan with all elemental punches and being disappointed when they did basically no damage, I was so confused at the time... :'(
 
Squirtle and Totodile are by far the best Pokémon in their respective generations for in-game, so there's that for them at least.
Speedrun wise, GSC sure for Toto, but HGSS?
Nah, far too dangerous cuz Bayleef rival fights steamroll it, and can just spam synthesis. Bellsprout Tower also no longer is optional, so there's that mess too.
So Typhlosion line is preferred
 
All I want for christmas is a WTF button. :pikuh:

Bro, GSC Abra is literally the most busted in-game mon EVER.

It being slightly underleveled is irrelevant when it's immediately throwing punches like prime Mike Tyson off 105 SpA with breakneck speed compared to everything at that point in the game. Johto's level curve means it's not severely underleveled either and there are plenty of trainers for it to catch up.
Did you know Psychic runs through Johto and Kanto like a hot knife through butter?

That was a straight up crazy take. :totodiLUL:

Lvl 10 0 SpA Abra Ice Punch vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 SpD Miltank: 6-8 (8.8 - 11.7%) -- possible 9HKO
Lvl 20 0 Atk Miltank Stomp vs. Lvl 10 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 74-88 (284.6 - 338.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lvl 20 16 Atk Croconaw Headbutt vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 Def Miltank: 11-14 (16.1 - 20.5%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 20 16 Atk Croconaw Fury Cutter vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 Def Miltank: 14-17 (20.5 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 20 0 Atk Miltank Stomp vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 Def Croconaw: 18-22 (30.5 - 37.2%) -- 71.7% chance to 3HKO

Lvl 21 0 SpA Kadabra Psybeam vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 SpD Miltank: 28-33 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 20 0 Atk Miltank Stomp vs. Lvl 21 0 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 35-42 (68.6 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lvl 21 0 SpA Alakazam Psybeam vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 SpD Miltank: 31-37 (45.5 - 54.4%) -- 49.6% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 20 0 Atk Miltank Stomp vs. Lvl 21 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 26-31 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO

Lvl 25 4 Atk Croconaw Headbutt vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 Def Miltank: 16-19 (23.5 - 27.9%) -- 69.7% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 25 4 Atk Croconaw Fury Cutter vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 Def Miltank: 20-24 (29.4 - 35.2%) -- 14.4% chance to 3HKO
Lvl 20 0 Atk Miltank Stomp vs. Lvl 25 0 HP / 0 Def Croconaw: 15-18 (21.1 - 25.3%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

Calculations are 16 IV (equivalent to 8 in gen I/II system) for player side, with adjustments on Croconaw's Attack and Fury Cutter's base damage to account for badge bonus. Fury Cutter is on the 4th hit (80 base BP, 90 with Azalea badge bonus applied), accounting for accumulating it on Clefairy, this lets Croconaw consistently solo the fight at lower levels than it normally would be able to. Miltank's IVs are allegedly 0 HP / 18 (9 gen I/II) else according to this guide on GameFAQs, which is the best resource I've found for GSC trainer stats. The EXP needed to bring Abra to 21 (21 is for Psybeam) is approximately the same to bring a level 20 Croconaw to 25, I did not check to see if Abra could grind as efficiently as Croconaw can. Stat EXP is not accounted for, these would make the comparisons more favorable for Croconaw as it has more stat EXP accumulated.

I'm routing out a low RNG run so Croconaw is already at level 24 after Rival #2 due to Bayleef's Razor Leaf (need to be 24 to guarantee a 3HKO with Fury Cutter, though stat EXP might lessen that). Abra's just not worth grinding for.

Speedrun wise, GSC sure for Toto, but HGSS?
Nah, far too dangerous cuz Bayleef rival fights steamroll it, and can just spam synthesis. Bellsprout Tower also no longer is optional, so there's that mess too.
So Typhlosion line is preferred

HGSS is gen IV, not referring to it.
 
Lvl 10 0 SpA Abra Ice Punch vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 SpD Miltank: 6-8 (8.8 - 11.7%) -- possible 9HKO
Lvl 20 0 Atk Miltank Stomp vs. Lvl 10 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 74-88 (284.6 - 338.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lvl 20 16 Atk Croconaw Headbutt vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 Def Miltank: 11-14 (16.1 - 20.5%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 20 16 Atk Croconaw Fury Cutter vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 Def Miltank: 14-17 (20.5 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 20 0 Atk Miltank Stomp vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 Def Croconaw: 18-22 (30.5 - 37.2%) -- 71.7% chance to 3HKO

Lvl 21 0 SpA Kadabra Psybeam vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 SpD Miltank: 28-33 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 20 0 Atk Miltank Stomp vs. Lvl 21 0 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 35-42 (68.6 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lvl 21 0 SpA Alakazam Psybeam vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 SpD Miltank: 31-37 (45.5 - 54.4%) -- 49.6% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 20 0 Atk Miltank Stomp vs. Lvl 21 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 26-31 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO

Lvl 25 4 Atk Croconaw Headbutt vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 Def Miltank: 16-19 (23.5 - 27.9%) -- 69.7% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 25 4 Atk Croconaw Fury Cutter vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 Def Miltank: 20-24 (29.4 - 35.2%) -- 14.4% chance to 3HKO
Lvl 20 0 Atk Miltank Stomp vs. Lvl 25 0 HP / 0 Def Croconaw: 15-18 (21.1 - 25.3%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

Calculations are 16 IV (equivalent to 8 in gen I/II system) for player side, with adjustments on Croconaw's Attack and Fury Cutter's base damage to account for badge bonus. Fury Cutter is on the 4th hit (80 base BP, 90 with Azalea badge bonus applied), accounting for accumulating it on Clefairy, this lets Croconaw consistently solo the fight at lower levels than it normally would be able to. Miltank's IVs are allegedly 0 HP / 18 (9 gen I/II) else according to this guide on GameFAQs, which is the best resource I've found for GSC trainer stats. The EXP needed to bring Abra to 21 (21 is for Psybeam) is approximately the same to bring a level 20 Croconaw to 25, I did not check to see if Abra could grind as efficiently as Croconaw can. Stat EXP is not accounted for, these would make the comparisons more favorable for Croconaw as it has more stat EXP accumulated.

I'm routing out a low RNG run so Croconaw is already at level 24 after Rival #2 due to Bayleef's Razor Leaf (need to be 24 to guarantee a 3HKO with Fury Cutter, though stat EXP might lessen that). Abra's just not worth grinding for.

This is some biased-ass stuff right here. You seem to completely ignore the fact the thing about Abra in GSC is it's really amazing coverage to hit stuff super-effectively thanks to it being able to learn all three the very easily obtainable elemental punch TMs, you just simply compared neutral hits vs neutral hits while ignoring that it's coverage of Psychic/Fire/Ice/Electric hits more important stuff super-effectively than any move combination the Totodile line can use.
 
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Whitney's a losing matchup for Abra, sure. She's also literally the only bad matchup it has for the rest of the run besides Karen, and even then Kadabra can beat 3/5 of her team. Coming off second-best in a comparison with Totodile (assuming you can't trade for Alakazam) is not a strike against it because Totodile is the most generically strong and accessible mon in the entire game.

This feels like the same convo that the in-game tier list threads have gone through over and over again where people are like 'but surely [Pokemon] represents an untenable opportunity cost because it's more efficient for me to overlevel my starter?' even though the lists have never been about pure efficiency in a vacuum. If you decide to train an Abra it will pull its weight exceptionally well in virtually every game it appears in.
 
Lvl 10 0 SpA Abra Ice Punch vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 SpD Miltank

Bum-rush Whitney with a 0 exp Abra and act surprised it loses brehs.
images
 
Bum-rush Whitney with a 0 exp Abra and act surprised it loses brehs.

It being slightly underleveled is irrelevant when it's immediately throwing punches like prime Mike Tyson off 105 SpA with breakneck speed compared to everything at that point in the game.

What can I say, I took you at your word there. It's still a damage range just to 1v1 Miltank after 10 levels (as an Alakazam no less), this just doesn't seem like the most busted in-game Pokémon in the series to me.
 
What can I say, I took you at your word there. It's still a damage range just to 1v1 Miltank after 10 levels (as an Alakazam no less), this just doesn't seem like the most busted in-game Pokémon in the series to me.

Literally every single in-game pokemon has matchups it struggles with (except for maybe Swampert and Emerald Rayquaza). Having 1 bad matchup doesn't seem that bad when it emulates prime Michael Jordan and dunks on the rest of the game.

Fo an in-game pokemon that I feel is highly overrated, Crobat has to take the cake. Sure, it's fast, but its other stats are mediocre at best. While the Poison/ Flying typing is unique and resists many common attacking types, it still has a plethora of nasty weaknesses that make it sit out in some fights, such as relatively common Psychic and Electric trainers, greatly diminishing its usefulness. This typing also has very redundant coverage, especially in non-Fairy gens. Most damningly, it has a pretty barren movepool without egg moves and TMs, especially in early gens. Getting access to Acrobatics and roost has been a godsend for it, but outside of options like taunt and U-turn, it doesn't get that much. I also feel that it faces stiff competition for a team slot from other Flying types, as many games have a plethora of flying powerhouses including common ones like Gyarados, Swellow (Hoenn), Staraptor (Sinnoh), Pelipper (even Pre-Drizzle, it has a sold typing and useful moves), or the rarer Skarmory and Gliscor.
 
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What can I say, I took you at your word there. It's still a damage range just to 1v1 Miltank after 10 levels (as an Alakazam no less), this just doesn't seem like the most busted in-game Pokémon in the series to me.

Johto's level curve means it's not severely underleveled either and there are plenty of trainers for it to catch up.
At no point I implied that bum-rushing Whitney with a lv. 10 Abra was the play.

If you really insist on claiming GSC Abra isn't that strong, I'm sure you'll be able to provide some logs proving as much in the GSC IGTL thread. :mehowth:
 
Triple Axel and Focus Blast are used because other options are worse not because they are good moves

It all depends on the circumstance.

A Physical Ice-type (not named Kyurem) would likely have access to either Icicle Crash and/or Ice Punch, Ice Fang if need-be. Where Triple Axel shines are for the non-Ice-types which niche it just so happens to cross. Yeah, it's not as "good" as Icicle Crash, Ice Punch, or Ice Fang, but if you're not a Pokemon that is going to get those Moves anyway but get Triple Axel, well, it's good enough (and sometimes good enough coverage is all you need).

There's not a lot of Special Fighting-types, infact usually when they are they are given a Special Fighting-type move (Lucario with Aura Sphere, Keldeo with Secret Sword). Thus Focus Blast is also mostly used as a coverage move by non-Fighting-types. Now there's only a handful of Special Fighting-type moves, Aura Sphere arguably being the best of them as it's decent Power and 100% Accurate. However, Aura Sphere's distribution is limited due to its flavor, and while some questionable Pokemon get it, those are more exceptions which prove the rule. If you get it great, but otherwise you'd have to work with either Focus Blast if a Special Fighting is what you think you need or have to come up with a different plan. As above, it's good enough.

Look, I'm not here to try and change your opinion. If you think they suck due to their inaccuracy that's your opinion (I myself am not a fan of inaccurate Moves). But you can't say they don't have a niche which they fill adequately. Pokemon is a game where you work with what you have, and sometimes what you have is an inaccurate move which (can) hit hard.

1. Water is now weak to Poison.
2. Ice is now immune to Water, and Ice is now neutral against Water.
3. Highly limit the distribution of both Scald and Ice-type moves.
4. I think Rain needs a much closer look in terms of balance, to the point that it goes beyond the scope of this post.

1. Hm, you know what, sure. If the idea of Poison being SE against Grass is because it's a pollutant, Water should also be vulnerable.

2. Ice neutral to Water, sure. But Ice being IMMUNE? No, gotta disagree on that one. The reason many guess why Water resist Ice (and why Ice isn't SE against Water) is because water as the element compound is able to retain a lot of heat, if it wasn't able to life as we know it wouldn't be able to exist. Therefore, Water-types have a natural resistant to Ice. But that thinking is very one-sided. It ignores that the Ice-type isn't just a animal that lives in/covered in ice, it's as much of an elemental creature as Water-types are. They generate cold, extreme cold, they have no problem freezing normal water. Maybe a Water-type would do fine in a cold/snowy environment due to their natural heat retention, but against an Ice-type they should equal out against each other. And as much cold as an Ice-type generate, too much water will wear them down, especially from a water elemental: it's also not just that the water has heat in it but also is being fired at a high velocity and Ice is structurally weak to kinetic force. Water =/= Ice is just fine.

3. Yeah, Scald's distribution feels a bit much. Not all Water-types should be able to superheat Water that it can cause a Burn.
Only two Pokemon naturally learn it: the Panpour family and Volcanion. I'm fine with both of that, Volcanion for obvious reasons and Panpour family I'll let slide due to their design origin (made to help the Striaton Triplets in the restaurant, specifically to make tea).
TM/TR is where things get interesting. Not going to go over them, so here's the one I would let keep it: Blastoise (it fires water out of a cannon), Tentacool family (can use chemicals of its Poison-type to make a burning sensation), Galarian Slowbro (arm cannon), Galarian Slowking (can use chemical to heat up/cause burning sensation), Seadra/Kingdra (is a sea dragon), Gyarados (is a sea serpent), Mew (cause Mew), Chinchou family (heats water with electrical energy), Remoraid family (its an artillery Pokemon), Milotic (is a sea serpent), Castform (probably has enough control over its metamorphic molecules to make water boiling hot), Luvdisc (as a joke), Kyogre (gonna give lord of the sea a pass), Emboar (a fire pig shooting out hot water, sure, let's move on), Normal Stunfisk (heats water with electrical energy), Dragalge (is a sea dragon), Clauncher family (claw works like a cannon), Inteleon (is a spy so has a few tricks to dish out hot water), Pincurchin (heats water with electrical energy), & Drakloak/Dragapult (a sea serpent that has cannons (of sort)).

4. Does Rain need a debuff or does the other weathers need a buff?

The problem with Water really boils down to Scald.

I see what you did there. :psysly:

If there's one secondary effect that I think makes a lot of sense to put on Water-Type moves, it's flinching.

Eh, honestly being wayed down by water is more something I relate to Water, which in Pokemon would translate as a stage decrease in Speed. Also cold, but I think everyone would beat me up if I dare suggest a freezing chance (how about a Water-support move that makes the target weak to Ice-types?).

i love the water type but i think there are way too many water type mons.

Sus :blobglare:

For example, when I first saw Barraskewda my first thought was "is this it?". I think that the fish concept has been done to death and that Game Freak could focus more on Water-types like Keldeo and Primarina, both of which are based on creatures that are associated with Water but it takes a different spin on them rather than just a fish.

Thing is there are a LOT of interesting fish so I wouldn't want to completely say no more fish-based Pokemon. They would have to combine them together with other things, which they actually did with Barraskewda which is a barracuda + torpedo (though this is hard to see in a still image). Infact on my "What Isn't A Pokemon" Repository List I have a whole section dedicated to animals adapted to marine/aquatic like. And that doesn't include all the objects, prehistoric animals, concepts, and mythical things connected to the water, any which could b combined with the aquatic animals.

Also still waiting for the (bottlenose) dolphin Pokemon.

All I want for christmas is a WTF button. :pikuh:

What Pokemon would it be? I say a confused looking Growlithe. :blobthumbsup:
 
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Buff Golduck
Water starters are weirdly hit miss. Blastoise underperforms compared to Charizard and Venu, Feraligatr had that small niche of a Skarmbliss counter but had poor stab, Swampert was super good, Empoleon was decent despite being overshadowed by Infernape, Samurott was disappointing, Greninja was bonkers, Primarina was better than other starters but still faulty, and Intellion is overshadowed by Libero Cinderace and Grassy Glide Rilaboom

It's fascinating despite Water being so good of a type
I'm not sure this is legit. Blastoise has been consistently solid(mostly as a spinner) throughout the gens, while Charizard only got good with various super-buffs, and Venusaur was basically solid-but-not-great until weather wars became a thing. In-game, of course, it's the only one with an SE move against Brock and proceeds to hit huge amounts of stuff SE throughout, especially with TM access.
Gatr is the speedrun mon in Johto, and OK in competitive throughout the gens, while Typhlosion and Meganium are both in the running for the "most underpowered starter" title.
Swampert is easy mode.
Empoleon is fine, steel is always a nice type, and Defog+Defiant is great in competitive.
Samurott...Yeah, no defending that mon, except for pointing out that Emboar and Torterra aren't any better.
Greninja can go die in a fire.
Primarina is good in-game, though Infernape is busted in competitive and Primarina is forgettable at best there.
Intellion is probably the biggest miss of the water starters. In-game, it has the worst matchup order against the 3 starter gyms, and it always felt weak compared to the other two. Competitive, oof, it wishes it had a fraction of the impact of the others.

So Samurott, Primarina, and Intellion are the only meh ones imo, and that's debatable with Primarina while Samurott is just from a bad set of starters. Water's consistently good, if you ask me.

Also, yeah, Abra is easy mode. Fun fact, it requires almost the least amount of experience of anything to reach lvl 16 and evolve. Because EXP groups are clearly a good idea with no drawbacks.
 
Intellion is probably the biggest miss of the water starters. In-game, it has the worst matchup order against the 3 starter gyms, and it always felt weak compared to the other two. Competitive, oof, it wishes it had a fraction of the impact of the others.
Inteleon is what speedruns use for their starter (and I think keep for the rest of the game? SwSh has a lot of route options). Competitively, Rillaboom and Cinderace blow it out of the water (heh), but the things that make those two so good in competitive (Grassy Surge, Grassy Glide, Libero...) aren't readily available for an in-game playthrough. Meanwhile, Inteleon is fast, strong, and has old reliable Water STAB to plow through everything with neutral hits.
 
Literally every single in-game pokemon has matchups it struggles with (except for maybe Swampert and Emerald Rayquaza). Having 1 bad matchup doesn't seem that bad when it emulates prime Michael Jordan and dumpsters the rest of the game.

I'm pretty confident Miltank isn't the Abra line's only bad matchup, unless you have a good strategy for Karen's Umbreon and Houndoom. There's more to a good Pokemon for efficiency than having few bad matchups too. There's consideration of how to overcome those bad matchups, such as determining when it's better to power through bad matchups or compensate with a team member. Abra line's terrible defenses and poor power against its worst matchups makes beating them via overleveling far less efficient than something like the Totodile line that has SE coverage for Electric/Grass/Dragon types, and can typically win against opposing Water types via superior physical stats. I'll admit that figuring out the most efficient partners to compensate for weaknesses is trickier to identify, I'll have to leave that one aside for now until further progress on routing is complete.

At no point I implied that bum-rushing Whitney with a lv. 10 Abra was the play.

If you really insist on claiming GSC Abra isn't that strong, I'm sure you'll be able to provide some logs proving as much in the GSC IGTL thread. :mehowth:

There is one required trainer between catching Abra and Whitney.

Lvl 10 0 SpA Abra Ice Punch vs. Lvl 18 0 HP / 0 SpD Snubbull: 11-13 (21.1 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 18 0 SpA Snubbull Bite vs. Lvl 10 0 HP / 0 SpD Abra: 25-30 (96.1 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% to OHKO

Wild encounters are better, but well...

Lvl 10 0 SpA Abra Ice Punch vs. Lvl 11 0 HP / 0 SpD Rattata: 16-19 (55.1 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 11 0 Atk Rattata Quick Attack vs. Lvl 10 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 15-18 (57.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I don't really know what to say about grinding a Pokémon that has an approximately 20% chance of losing to a wild Rattata. This isn't exactly the immediate powerhouse it's made out to be, and that carrying it needs to pull its weight is a detriment to its efficiency.

I tried participating in the IGTL topic for RBY, but the issue I found is, essentially, that the goal isn't really efficiency but an approximation of efficiency. The random batch testing is utterly contrary to finding the most efficient team to completing the game, as is enforcing a set party size and ruling out overleveling a Pokémon even if it's most efficient to do so. Since there's a guideline of assuming you're going to use a specific Pokémon, drawbacks like loss of efficiency in grinding it up are typically ignored, hence Pokémon like Abra, Magikarp, and generally underleveled Pokémon often have these efficiency losses downplayed in favor of their performance once they are ready to go. This ranks the Pokemon's potential but not how efficient it actually is to use. And of course, ranking a Pokémon on its singular performance says nothing about its ability in a well crafted team. Taking R/B as an example, Squirtle's innate efficiency is made even better by how all of its bad matchups are covered by Diglett/Dugtrio and Zapdos right when they become available (it takes a little time fishing for a Freeze to easily nab Zapdos pre-Master Ball, but it sweeps Saffron Rival by itself and performs well all the way to the end of the game vs. Water types and Venusaur).

This isn't even getting into how winning against 3/5 out of an opponent's team or with a 50% probability is considered "favorable". In the first one, that Pokémon still loses. In the second, it loses half the time, that shouldn't be seen as equally favorable to a 90-100% win probability. Neither of these circumstances are efficient. And, Pokémon are ranked based on their performance in every major battle instead of just the ones where they're most efficient to use. As an example, when I posted about the routing I had done for a Bulbasaur route in R/B, I did not test Clefable vs. Misty because obviously, it was not efficient to use Clefable vs. Misty. That was not why Clefable was in my party, it was for Cerulean Rival. By getting Bubble Beam before fighting that Rival, Clefable's ability to contribute in that fight is considerably improved. But of course, without being overleveled it stands no chance against Starmie. Fighting Starmie was Ivysaur's role, Clefable's lack of performance there has no bearing on its overall efficiency. But in the eyes of the IGTL it does. Even though that has nothing to do with efficiency.

Short of it is, the IGTL topics are kinda garbage and that lack of real quality to them is exactly why I'm doing my own efficiency routing, and it's effectively incompatible with how the IGTL is run since I have no issue doing a solo overleveled route if that is indeed what is most efficient, and I have no intention of conducting a bunch of meaningless tests on Pokémon that are clearly not the most efficient method to go about a major battle. I'm trying to determine an actual concrete route for efficiency, not assign arbitrary rankings as a guideline to it. Nobody there cares about trying to figure out what the most efficient team actually would look like, topic is useless for that purpose.
 
I'm pretty confident Miltank isn't the Abra line's only bad matchup, unless you have a good strategy for Karen's Umbreon and Houndoom. There's more to a good Pokemon for efficiency than having few bad matchups too. There's consideration of how to overcome those bad matchups, such as determining when it's better to power through bad matchups or compensate with a team member. Abra line's terrible defenses and poor power against its worst matchups makes beating them via overleveling far less efficient than something like the Totodile line that has SE coverage for Electric/Grass/Dragon types, and can typically win against opposing Water types via superior physical stats. I'll admit that figuring out the most efficient partners to compensate for weaknesses is trickier to identify, I'll have to leave that one aside for now until further progress on routing is complete.



There is one required trainer between catching Abra and Whitney.

Lvl 10 0 SpA Abra Ice Punch vs. Lvl 18 0 HP / 0 SpD Snubbull: 11-13 (21.1 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 18 0 SpA Snubbull Bite vs. Lvl 10 0 HP / 0 SpD Abra: 25-30 (96.1 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% to OHKO

Wild encounters are better, but well...

Lvl 10 0 SpA Abra Ice Punch vs. Lvl 11 0 HP / 0 SpD Rattata: 16-19 (55.1 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 11 0 Atk Rattata Quick Attack vs. Lvl 10 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 15-18 (57.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I don't really know what to say about grinding a Pokémon that has an approximately 20% chance of losing to a wild Rattata. This isn't exactly the immediate powerhouse it's made out to be, and that carrying it needs to pull its weight is a detriment to its efficiency.

I tried participating in the IGTL topic for RBY, but the issue I found is, essentially, that the goal isn't really efficiency but an approximation of efficiency. The random batch testing is utterly contrary to finding the most efficient team to completing the game, as is enforcing a set party size and ruling out overleveling a Pokémon even if it's most efficient to do so. Since there's a guideline of assuming you're going to use a specific Pokémon, drawbacks like loss of efficiency in grinding it up are typically ignored, hence Pokémon like Abra, Magikarp, and generally underleveled Pokémon often have these efficiency losses downplayed in favor of their performance once they are ready to go. This ranks the Pokemon's potential but not how efficient it actually is to use. And of course, ranking a Pokémon on its singular performance says nothing about its ability in a well crafted team. Taking R/B as an example, Squirtle's innate efficiency is made even better by how all of its bad matchups are covered by Diglett/Dugtrio and Zapdos right when they become available (it takes a little time fishing for a Freeze to easily nab Zapdos pre-Master Ball, but it sweeps Saffron Rival by itself and performs well all the way to the end of the game vs. Water types and Venusaur).

This isn't even getting into how winning against 3/5 out of an opponent's team or with a 50% probability is considered "favorable". In the first one, that Pokémon still loses. In the second, it loses half the time, that shouldn't be seen as equally favorable to a 90-100% win probability. Neither of these circumstances are efficient. And, Pokémon are ranked based on their performance in every major battle instead of just the ones where they're most efficient to use. As an example, when I posted about the routing I had done for a Bulbasaur route in R/B, I did not test Clefable vs. Misty because obviously, it was not efficient to use Clefable vs. Misty. That was not why Clefable was in my party, it was for Cerulean Rival. By getting Bubble Beam before fighting that Rival, Clefable's ability to contribute in that fight is considerably improved. But of course, without being overleveled it stands no chance against Starmie. Fighting Starmie was Ivysaur's role, Clefable's lack of performance there has no bearing on its overall efficiency. But in the eyes of the IGTL it does. Even though that has nothing to do with efficiency.

Short of it is, the IGTL topics are kinda garbage and that lack of real quality to them is exactly why I'm doing my own efficiency routing, and it's effectively incompatible with how the IGTL is run since I have no issue doing a solo overleveled route if that is indeed what is most efficient, and I have no intention of conducting a bunch of meaningless tests on Pokémon that are clearly not the most efficient method to go about a major battle. I'm trying to determine an actual concrete route for efficiency, not assign arbitrary rankings as a guideline to it. Nobody there cares about trying to figure out what the most efficient team actually would look like, topic is useless for that purpose.
That explains it. You're approaching it with a speedrun-like strategy.

In that case, Gatr or bust as far as I can tell. Don't even bother catching anything else except maybe the Red Gyarados to dump HMs.

Riveting, isn't it? That's why IGTL exists, but obviously the idea behind it flew right over your head.
 
That explains it. You're approaching it with a speedrun-like strategy.
I'm routing out a low RNG run so Croconaw is already at level 24 after Rival #2 due to Bayleef's Razor Leaf (need to be 24 to guarantee a 3HKO with Fury Cutter, though stat EXP might lessen that).

Okay, so first, I provide calcs that show that Alakazam needs a damage range to 1v1 Miltank even at a level advantage, and you completely ignore that in favor of focusing on the calcs that shows a fresh Abra has nowhere near "prime Mike Tyson" levels of damage when it's captured with it having half of Croconaw's damage on Miltank. Like yeah, no shit Abra loses at level 10, but it still can't guarantee a win at level 21 either! Then when I provide calcs showing it has a 20% chance to lose to a Rattata, instead of addressing that you say I'm trying to route a speedrun, when I've stated the stipulation of routing out RNG. Now, yes, the goal is "minimum turn count", for lack of a better way to measure efficiency. Going fast does matter. But also minimum RNG, and that entails trying to identify the best grinding methods for power leveling through bad matchups, and when it's more turn efficient to just catch another Pokémon and invest in it. Battle items outside balls are also restricted, and unless it turns out to be actually impossible, no player KOs too. As I said earlier, for R/B I had Clefable on the Bulbasaur route (also Dugtrio by the time I scrapped it) and Dugtrio and Zapdos for the Squirtle route (full party was Squirtle/Spearow/Dugtrio/Zapdos, E4 team was Blastoise/Zapdos). I developed this guideline playing that Pokemon-style Touhou game I mentioned some posts ago talking about fangames, where it ended up with a party of 5 for the first credits roll (that one has gen VI EXP Share though).

Now, for GSC, Geodude is absolutely the efficient pick for Falkner on a Chikorita/Cyndaquil start by these guidelines. It's faster to grind it to Rock Throw than grind the starters to beat Falkner without luck. Anything past that, I didn't route, as Totodile can beat Falkner by itself more efficiently, so it was the clear starter here. I strongly doubt Feraligatr solo is the actual most efficient way to go (Will being the most noticeable potential roadblock, would require a lot of grinding for a consistent itemless solo), but I do need to route it out to completion to be sure. What I am sure about is that Abra is not worth the time to capture and grind under this guideline when Croconaw is already in the low 20s by the time it's available. That is in fact underleveled.

To recap what I said about Abra before.

Abra line is overrated for in-game runs. It's consistently rated as a high-top tier Pokémon in the in-game tier lists when it's typically underleveled, requires switch training to grind, lacks coverage, and is very squishy physically.

GSC Abra doesn't require switch grinding and does have coverage. This is the only game that's true of it. It still needs 10+ levels to even try to participate in the gym it's next to and has a 1/5 chance to lose to a Rattata on the same route it's caught on. Very underleveled and very squishy. But hey, once you grind it up, you can bring it to Whitney in the same time frame Feraligatr has Olvine done. That does seem riveting, doesn't it?
 
GSC Abra doesn't require switch grinding and does have coverage. This is the only game that's true of it. It still needs 10+ levels to even try to participate in the gym it's next to and has a 1/5 chance to lose to a Rattata on the same route it's caught on. Very underleveled and very squishy. But hey, once you grind it up, you can bring it to Whitney in the same time frame Feraligatr has Olvine done. That does seem riveting, doesn't it?
I think you're missing the whole point of what ingame tierlists work.

As speedrunner myself, I do agree with what Volt-Ikazuchi said: you're thinking on a speedrunner perspective.
And on that perspective, in no game there's any reason to just not overlevel your starter and faceroll the game with it.
Literally, it's the best way to do any game until SwSh, and only cause SwSh gives access to much stronger options right off the bat due to the wild area and how stone evolutions work.

PLUS, pokemon games are a joke difficulty wise, you can literally use any pokemon and win as long as you have more than 3 functional braincells (which apparently my nephew lacks), they don't need "tier lists" for that purpose.

The point of "in game tierlists" is just to provide a effort-reward ratio.
If you want to use "pokemon X" in your playthrough, the tierlist shows the effort-reward ratio: a S tier poke will likely carry the game on its own (not a case starters are almost always there), a A tier pokemon will usually require a tiny bit of investment and then still be capable of carrying the game on its own or partecipate in any battle without feeling like deadweight.
In the case of "Abra", the reason it's so high in the lists is cause if you want to use it, once it's past the first couple levels, it's so strong it will never feel deadweight and can even singlehandedly win the game, so it's recommended to get it.

They are NOT a speed list. There'd be no point to have one, just overlevel your starter, it's faster than literally everything else.
 
I think you're missing the whole point of what ingame tierlists work.

As speedrunner myself, I do agree with what Volt-Ikazuchi said: you're thinking on a speedrunner perspective.
And on that perspective, in no game there's any reason to just not overlevel your starter and faceroll the game with it.

I spent a bulk of that post you didn't quote explaining how accounting for unfavorable RNG, no in-battle items, and avoiding party member KOs does typically entail constructing an actually functional team and not just facerolling the game by overleveling the starter. GSC Abra probably is a top 5 Pokemon for those games but to call it the most busted Pokemon for in-game in the whole series is exactly the kind of overrated nonsense I'm talking about here. It's strong, but the strongest for in-game ever? Nah. And GSC is its prime. It's way worse in any other game.
 
I spent a bulk of that post you didn't quote explaining how accounting for unfavorable RNG, no in-battle items, and avoiding party member KOs does typically entail constructing an actually functional team and not just facerolling the game by overleveling the starter. GSC Abra probably is a top 5 Pokemon for those games but to call it the most busted Pokemon for in-game in the whole series is exactly the kind of overrated nonsense I'm talking about here. It's strong, but the strongest for in-game ever? Nah. And GSC is its prime. It's way worse in any other game.
IGTL's are more geared towards casual runs. You're getting caught up in definitions and semantics of something that you don't have experience in.

To put it bluntly, this discussion is meaningless because you keep trying to smash in a square peg in a round hole.

Anyone that has actual experience in IGTL's will know by the eye test that Abra is a really good in-game mon. Since you don't, you immediately opened the Showdown calculator.

It'd be like me pulling up in the OU thread and calling Landorus overrated because you can just nail it with an Ice Beam or whatever. I don't have the credentials for that. Hell, I don't even know what tier Landorus is in.
 
IGTL's are more geared towards casual runs.

Exactly why it's useless for actual efficiency and why a Pokémon like Abra is supposedly the most amazing in-game Pokémon ever. Also what even is supposed to be the diss about using Pokémon Showdown's damage calculator here? I use that for literally all of my routing and confirm the results in-game once I find the best solution. A fresh Abra having an approximate 20% chance to lose to a wild Rattata is a mathematical fact, using Showdown to demonstrate this is just providing mathematical proof of that.
 
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