Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet & Violet OU Discussion [BAN LIST POST 626]

[666lumberjack]

where did you hear it was +50 per dead mon? I heard we didn't have the exact power increase yet, and 50 sounds way too high, probably closer to 20-30 if I had to guess

Battle mechanics thread here.

 

[MrHands]

Basculegion @ Choice Scarf
Jolly max/max
Adaptability
- Last Rites

If you thought Dracovish was absurd... Last rites is apparently 50 base power plus 50 per dead ally. That means with Adaptability and this as your last mon, you're at a 600 base power physical ghost move off of 112 base attack. That makes this a Jolly choice scarfer that cleanly ohkos max/max Toxapex, for example. *If* this is actually how the move works... Hope everyone planned a normal type for their day one team.

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 314-370 (103.2 - 121.7%)

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 410-484 (102.5 - 121%)

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Buzzwole: 360-424 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Rites vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 271-319 (79.4 - 93.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 418-492 (148.7 - 175%)

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 294-346 (108.4 - 127.6%)

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 378-446 (90 - 106.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This... can't be real right? It OHKOs literally everything in OU after Stealth Rocks.

 

[Magcargo]

Basculegion @ Choice Scarf
Jolly max/max
Adaptability
- Last Rites

If you thought Dracovish was absurd... Last rites is apparently 50 base power plus 50 per dead ally. That means with Adaptability and this as your last mon, you're at a 600 base power physical ghost move off of 112 base attack. That makes this a Jolly choice scarfer that cleanly ohkos max/max Toxapex, for example. *If* this is actually how the move works... Hope everyone planned a normal type for their day one team.

An Idea I had for a meme team is running 4 level 1 Pokemon to setup entry hazards or something + Pelipper + Basculegion. It gets Swift Swim and I think Swift Swim+ Band is stronger and faster than Choice Scarf + Adaptability. Probably a bit extreme, but I do see Basculegion being really good on Rain Teams because of how OP Last Rites is

So I doubt Decidueye-Hisui will be viable in OU due to Lilligant and Breloom being strictly better, but I think it will be a lot better than I initially was expecting. SV gave it Scrappy and stronger Fighting STAB with a buffed Triple Arrows and Close Combat + it still may be able to get some of Rowlet's Egg moves like Knock Off (though idk how the breeding mechanics work so it might not be able to get them). If it does get Knock Off, I think it'll be in a pretty solid spot in the lower tiers and could run either Swords Dance or CB sets quite well. Also gets Trailblaze, but I don't think that will be a viable option unfortunately.

Sets

Decidueye-Hisui @ Choice Band
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat / Triple Arrows
- U-turn
- Knock Off?

Decidueye-Hisui @ Leftovers
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat / Triple Arrows
- Leaf Blade / Roost
- Knock Off?

Hisui Growlithe get Head Smash, Flare Blitz, and Rock Head, so it'll be capable of massive damage. However, I still don't think it'll be used in OU due to Garchomp + all the new counters introduced like Quaquaval. Still, it'll be a fun option as a wallbreaker since its got good coverage.

Sets

Arcanine-Hisui @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Play Rough

 

[thecolinater5]

If I understand Opportunist correctly where it works like imposter but only for the stat boosts I think that this set will be really strong
Espathra base stats - 95/60/60/101/60/105
Espathra @ Choice Scarf
Jolly or Modest (I never know which nature to put on my scarfers lol) max/max
Opportunist

-Lumina Crash
-Dazzling Gleam
-U-turn
-Foul Play

The idea is you can come in on any kind of set up sweeper and beat them in the 1v1 except for probably bulk up ones due to your low base physcial bulk with either foul play or lumina crashes stupid minus 2 spdef secondary effect. Lumina crashes op secondary effect along with decent 80 base power will also allow you to work as a decent scarfer outside of coming in on set up sweepers along with u-turn for pivoting and dazzling gleam for coverage. Espathra special attack stat is quite low but lumina crash theorectially should handle and the speed tier would be really good for a scarfer I think lol.

 

[MarsTheHamburglar]

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 314-370 (103.2 - 121.7%)

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 410-484 (102.5 - 121%)

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Buzzwole: 360-424 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Rites vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 271-319 (79.4 - 93.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 418-492 (148.7 - 175%)

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 294-346 (108.4 - 127.6%)

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 378-446 (90 - 106.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This... can be real right? It OHKOs literally everything in OU after Stealth Rocks.

 

[MarsTheHamburglar]

Imagine sweeping a stall team that had rocks us and then they send out Basculegion

 

[snobbull]

i believe we shouldn't sleep on maushold tho, since tidy up is a self targetting status move that removes hazards from your side of the field, which means it cannot be blocked by gholdengo nor ghost-types in general.

the cute family also has a pretty decent 111 speed stat and access to u-turn, encore, super fang, taunt and the potentially busted population bomb

 

[Dragapult]

That or Sucker Punch, either way that is going to be nasty. Though considering that Population Bomb is effectively a 300 BP multi hit move with the Loaded Dice and when boosted by Maushold's Technician strong AF moves seems to be the flavor of this Gen.

Also, minor nitpick but isn't the moves name Last Respects?

Loaded Dice doesn't guarantee 10 hits and Population Bomb actually has to connect (90 accuracy.) I don't know what the exact math is but if we take an average of 4 hits you have:

20 BP * STAB * Technician = 45 BP
Let's assume a conservative average of 4 hits:
45 BP * 4 hits = 180 BP

Off 75 Attack it's not particularly nuts. I will note that if Loaded Dice works as the folks in the mechanics thread currently believe (2 rolls with the game selecting for the higher of the two rolls) assuming equal potential outcomes of 0 (a miss), 1, 2, 3, 4, ... 10 hits, your second roll has a 72.7% chance of rolling higher than a 4.

Now if Loaded Dice causes it to average out to about 7 hits? We've got something serious for the lower tiers.

 

[astralydia]

Heya, if anyone's looking for some movesets that they can use on release for the most powerful new mons, I have a Pokepaste ready for use when the game drops.

https://pokepast.es/2b5dd44c4e3f0816

These mons are ordered by how broken I feel they'll be on release. Anything not included on this list is either a returning mon (which I did check the lists for, but there's not really much interesting about their movepools), returning mons from HOME (this will be a few months off - expect this to feel like the DLC expansions from Sword & Shield), or is something I don't consider viable at the moment.

Please do excuse me if there are any moveset errors. I've already had to change this paste twice because I got something from Flutter Mane's moveset wrong, so the track record isn't perfect.

EDIT 1: Took suggestions from shadowpea below.
EDIT 2: Power Capsule isn't a real item. Replaced it with what I meant (Booster Energy)
EDIT 3: Added descriptions for Clodsire, Dondozo and Annihilape
EDIT 4: Added descriptions for Palafin and Espathra
EDIT 5: Added some new sets for various mons
EDIT 6: PLA mons added by popular request!
EDIT 7: New movesets + slashes reduced

 

[Syched]

Dondozo @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 DEF
Impish Nature
- Curse
- Liquidation / Wave Crash
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Other notable moves: Chilling Water, Yawn, Body Press, Body Slam, Earthquake, Crunch

This is the one stop shop pokemon to switch in on all early meta game physical sweepers with 150 HP/100 ATK/115 DEF. This thing is just leagues above unaware Qaugsire/Clef imo. If water absorbs mons start to become common again like in the dracovish meta (which i think will happen because of Palafin) then you'll have to change the set a bit.

 

[Yuri_z9]

Does anyone think there's a pokemon we could reasonably test in OU this gen from Ubers?

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Does anyone think there's a pokemon we could reasonably test in OU this gen from Ubers?

People are suggesting Cinderace and Giratina being potentially fine due to the nerfs they got. Ofc they'll only be available through HOME, but my point stands.

The only mon I can see getting banned this gen but wasn't broken before was Urshifu-Rapid-Strike. Getting SD is huge for it, and it was already hard to switch into before, and has good enough speed and power.

 

[Dive Missile]

Does anyone think there's a pokemon we could reasonably test in OU this gen from Ubers?

zamazenta could be fine in ou this gen, it got some great new moves but theres a lot stronger attacks this gen and its bst is a little less monstrous compared to last gen. dauntless shield also got nerfed pretty hard too

 

[shadowpea]

Heya, if anyone's looking for some movesets that they can use on release for the most powerful new mons, I have a Pokepaste ready for use when the game drops.

https://pokepast.es/c93872ab16b4248c

These mons are ordered by how broken I feel they'll be on release. Anything not included on this list is either a returning mon (which I did check the lists for, but there's not really much interesting about their movepools), returning mons from HOME (this will be a few months off - expect this to feel like the DLC expansions from Sword & Shield), or is something I don't consider viable at the moment.

Please do excuse me if there are any moveset errors. I've already had to change this paste twice because I got something from Flutter Mane's moveset wrong, so the track record isn't perfect.

ill probably post random shit later, but a couple of things:

baxcalibur gets ddance, i think that should 100% be a set, especially after roaring moon/the booster gets the hammer but even before.

who couldve guessed ice/water stab would be so so sooo damn good if you just add freeze-dry to the equation. also id like to point out (incase others havent noticed already) that bundle is sitting at 136 speed, obviously one of the fastest mons around, even faster than flutter mane and chien-pao at 135.

imo chi-yu is easily in the 100% broken category, and at least more than bundle. it may not be speedy, but the amount of firepower behind is is completely unmatched. honestly, the "broken" and "likely broken" categories might as well be retitled "banned first" and "banned later" - although i can see ting-lu and bundle sticking around for longer. i can't put chi-yu above valiant or roaring moon in good faith.

so unfortunate that valiant gets swords dance, really. it is definately going to ubers because of it. no cool iconic speedy mixed attackers for us, ah well.

 

[ryangregory78]

Honestly don't think the recover move PP nerf is that big of a deal at all for matchups vs offensive styles. My intuition is that the average offensive vs defensive Pokemon matchup consumes 2-3 recover move PP across the course of the game, if the defensive Pokemon is the victor. If you have one Pokemon defensively responsible for more than 50% of the enemy team, either it's well built offense and it'll have a way to break said Pokemon regardless of much recover PP you have, or it isn't and the other five Pokemon you have should be able to convert that 5v3 into a victory.

Mainly I see this PP change just shortening fat vs fat matchups, and maybe as a relative buff to Pokemon with Regenerator, Poison Heal, and similar not-recover-move ways of staying healthy.

Don't see defensive teamstyles surviving Tera, but once that mechanic is banned as I expect it will be I'm less pessimistic than it seems like a lot of people are. I expect a shift back towards hazard stacking with many good new Spikes/TSpikes users and hazard removal at a premium, plus status moves being less well distributed. But we have three new interesting Unaware users, an ability which has historically been a crutch for heavy stall in offensively strong metas, and a whole bunch of new fat Pokemon with interesting typing to play around with once things chill a little.

Mostly just super hyped to throw a bunch of unviable jank around. Hope it doesn't take too long for these to be up on showdown for us to play around with.

PP drop definitely isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Like yeah I'm not gonna deny that it's a pretty big deal but I can't think of a time when I, admittedly as a offense player, use recovery on a Mon more than three or four times a battle.

 

[vin sneasel]

Scovillain seems like it'll benefit from the new (seemingly) Sun-centric meta. Its stats aren't the greatest, but it has just enough juice and unique tricks to make a name for itself as a niche but potent weather sweeper.

Scovillain @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Tera Blast (Fairy)
- Worry Seed/Substitute/Giga Drain/Flamethrower

Sun-boosted LO Fire Blasts melts anything that doesn't resist it, and Solar Beam takes care of the pesky Water and Rock types. The Tera Blast (Fairy) nails Dragon types that'll try and switch in to the juiced up STABs.

The thing about the Roaring Moon matchup for Scovillain is that Scovillain beat fully offensive sets 1 on 1, but sets that favor Speed investment over Attack will outspeed even Timid Scovillain under the Sun due to Protosynthesis. That's where Worry Seed might be an option worth looking in to- it'll strip paradox switch ins of their ability, thus enabling a Scovillain sweep later down the line or creating an opening for something else to come in and set up on the (somewhat) crippled paradox. Since Scovillain hits pretty hard with its STABs and is pretty fast under the Sun, it can use the opportunity to set up a Substitute and force the opponent to take a hit. Flamethrower and Giga Drain are alternative options that can be used for more consistency, but I think Worry Seed and Substitute will be the more common options for the lil pepper man.

 

[ryangregory78]

where did you hear it was +50 per dead mon? I heard we didn't have the exact power increase yet, and 50 sounds way too high, probably closer to 20-30 if I had to guess

Subtracting the Adaptability boost from the 600 number would imply that the move would have 300 BP with five dead allies, and given this is a 50 BP move that probably functions similarly to something like Stored Power in all seriousness, I can't imagine it surpassing 250. Realistically it caps at like 175 or something.

 

[Magcargo]

zamazenta could be fine in ou this gen, it got some great new moves but theres a lot stronger attacks this gen and its bst is a little less monstrous compared to last gen. dauntless shield also got nerfed pretty hard too

Yeah, the nerf to Attack really stinks. Zamazenta was already lacking on Attack before, being weaker than LO Kubfu, and now it can't even match up to LO Combusken.

Calcs

252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 195-229 (54.6 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Combusken Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 199-235 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kubfu Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 208-246 (58.2 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I think it'll still be more broken this generation since it actually gets Body Press, letting it use a set like ID, BP, Rest, Filler and sweep teams while also being unbreakable, but eh, a set like this might also be crap due to all the Ghost around. It doesn't help that the Hazard meta will hurt Zamazenta more than others since it can run Boots.

PP drop definitely isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Like yeah I'm not gonna deny that it's a pretty big deal but I can't think of a time when I, admittedly as a offense player, use recovery on a Mon more than three or four times a battle.

I think it'll mainly be a nerf for Corviknight and Scizor, since when I played, I tended to use recovery moves on those Pokemon a lot more than other mons like Toxapex or Zapdos. However, Scizor doesn't get Roost yet, so it'll mostly just be Corviknight who's nerfed I think. Knock Off having lower distribution means that it'll at least be able to keep its Leftovers more reliably at least, so it can still run something like Protect to enjoy passive recovery and PP stall like before.

 

[Kuizma]

zamazenta could be fine in ou this gen, it got some great new moves but theres a lot stronger attacks this gen and its bst is a little less monstrous compared to last gen. dauntless shield also got nerfed pretty hard too

92/140/140 defenses and amazing speed with dauntless shield and STAB Body Press seem a bit broken for OU. Even a toxapex can't do much to counter it with the removal of scald.

 

[ryangregory78]

Does anyone think there's a pokemon we could reasonably test in OU this gen from Ubers?

Prolly Zamazenta-H with the nerfs to the Galar legends. Other than that it really just depends on how strong the Paradox forms really are. Like if them and the Dark Legendaries are as good as they look then I'd say Magearna might get tested as a possible solution but what do I know.

 

[thecolinater5]

People are suggesting Cinderace and Giratina being potentially fine due to the nerfs they got. Ofc they'll only be available through HOME, but my point stands.

The only mon I can see getting banned this gen but wasn't broken before was Urshifu-Rapid-Strike. Getting SD is huge for it, and it was already hard to switch into before, and has good enough speed and power.

People are wild for saying Giratina, I dont think they remeber what its stats are

 

[astralydia]

ill probably post random shit later, but a couple of things:

baxcalibur gets ddance, i think that should 100% be a set, especially after roaring moon/the booster gets the hammer but even before.

who couldve guessed ice/water stab would be so so sooo damn good if you just add freeze-dry to the equation. also id like to point out (incase others havent noticed already) that bundle is sitting at 136 speed, obviously one of the fastest mons around, even faster than flutter mane and chien-pao at 135.

imo chi-yu is easily in the 100% broken category, and at least more than bundle. it may not be speedy, but the amount of firepower behind is is completely unmatched. honestly, the "broken" and "likely broken" categories might as well be retitled "banned first" and "banned later" - although i can see ting-lu and bundle sticking around for longer. i can't put chi-yu above valiant or roaring moon in good faith.

so unfortunate that valiant gets swords dance, really. it is definately going to ubers because of it. no cool iconic speedy mixed attackers for us, ah well.

For the record - those categories are essentially what I was going for, but it's a bit early to say whether mons like this would be banned for sure in a metagame where Terastalizing is likely to catch out several of the top wallbreakers (and also become a damage amp for several of the top wallbreakers, looking at you Roaring Moon), and also where Speed has mattered more than it ever will do. Chi-Yu is probably broken as shit, but I feel like that will only really become apparent once you remove several of the faster or bulkier brokens (Roaring Moon, Flutter Mane, Ting-Lu) from the metagame, hence why I put it that low.

 

[666lumberjack]

Scovillain seems like it'll benefit from the new (seemingly) Sun-centric meta. Its stats aren't the greatest, but it has just enough juice and unique tricks to make a name for itself as a niche but potent weather sweeper.

Scovillain @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Tera Blast (Fairy)
- Worry Seed/Substitute/Giga Drain/Flamethrower
<snip>

I think you're underrating Scovillain, actually. We've never had a Chlorophyll abuser with fire STAB before, but that alone is a really nice niche in a meta which heavily incentivises running sun. You don't really need to try and get clever with coverage because Fire Blast is obscenely strong - cleanly 2HKOs 252/0 Skeledirge, for example. Just run Growth, Fire Blast, Solar Beam, and then either Giga Drain for LO recoil or maybe some coverage for the fairy dog and quad resists.

 

[Kuizma]

For the record - those categories are essentially what I was going for, but it's a bit early to say whether mons like this would be banned for sure in a metagame where Terastalizing is likely to catch out several of the top wallbreakers (and also become a damage amp for several of the top wallbreakers, looking at you Roaring Moon), and also where Speed has mattered more than it ever will do. Chi-Yu is probably broken as shit, but I feel like that will only really become apparent once you remove several of the faster or bulkier brokens (Roaring Moon, Flutter Mane, Ting-Lu) from the metagame, hence why I put it that low.

Sun teams will be reeeally prominent in the beginning of the meta, which will probably result in very quick bans for flutter mane, chi-yu and roaring moon or sun altogether.

 

[Kuizma]

I think you're underrating Scovillain, actually. We've never had a Chlorophyll abuser with fire STAB before, but that alone is a really nice niche in a meta which heavily incentivises running sun. You don't really need to try and get clever with coverage because Fire Blast is obscenely strong - cleanly 2HKOs 252/0 Skeledirge, for example. Just run Growth, Fire Blast, Solar Beam, and then either Giga Drain for LO recoil or maybe some coverage for the fairy dog and quad resists.

Scovillain seems like it'll benefit from the new (seemingly) Sun-centric meta. Its stats aren't the greatest, but it has just enough juice and unique tricks to make a name for itself as a niche but potent weather sweeper.

Scovillain @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Tera Blast (Fairy)
- Worry Seed/Substitute/Giga Drain/Flamethrower

Sun-boosted LO Fire Blasts melts anything that doesn't resist it, and Solar Beam takes care of the pesky Water and Rock types. The Tera Blast (Fairy) nails Dragon types that'll try and switch in to the juiced up STABs.

The thing about the Roaring Moon matchup for Scovillain is that Scovillain beat fully offensive sets 1 on 1, but sets that favor Speed investment over Attack will outspeed even Timid Scovillain under the Sun due to Protosynthesis. That's where Worry Seed might be an option worth looking in to- it'll strip paradox switch ins of their ability, thus enabling a Scovillain sweep later down the line or creating an opening for something else to come in and set up on the (somewhat) crippled paradox. Since Scovillain hits pretty hard with its STABs and is pretty fast under the Sun, it can use the opportunity to set up a Substitute and force the opponent to take a hit. Flamethrower and Giga Drain are alternative options that can be used for more consistency, but I think Worry Seed and Substitute will be the more common options for the lil pepper man.

I don't see how tera blast fairy would be that benefitial compared to a tera type that can hit other fire types, or just stomping tantrum, since growth, which you should obviously run, gives +2 to both offensive stats. either way he will be a staple on sun teams.