For those who think Iron Bundle deserves more time, what do you think functions as a good switch-in to it aside from Blissey and Hydro Pump’s animation going to the left of the opponent?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Good topic Finch, wanted to talk about Bundle because I think it's one of the most potentially overbearing mons that is really being overlooked in the general climate. Bundle's speed tier is ridiculously fast, only being dealt with Offensively by Dragapult, a few Paradox Booster Energy Speeds, Choice Scarfers, and select forms of priority like Breloom Mach because it also has a very high defense stat which makes its otherwise poor bulk useful in the current climate. Finding switch-ins to this thing is pretty much a worthless endeavor, with only Blissey really standing out as a potential option that doesnt get owned by just hydro / freeze dry, even ignoring that it can be worn down by taunt + uturn / flip turn. Blissey also, notably, is not good at all in my opinion! There's so many new physical offense threats that are choking out games atm that it really struggles to find useful things to check, Pult probably being the most notable one but this is also a mon that can uturn on it for free. There's a few sets i've messed with, the most consistent one being Boots Taunt, but Choice Specs with Rain support has also been really nuclear for me. Agility Modest Booster Energy only really slots on a couple types of teams but because of how decently it can take priority this is a very strong cleaning option. It's Terra Potential is really low commitment and strong, with some examples being you can hit Corv on a switch with Hydro, and then you only need to Terra Water for the second hit to KO it, Terra Freeze Dry hitting through Toxapex and slightly chipped Palafins trying to tank you and Drain Punch, interactions very much tilted in the Bundle users favor.
It's not completely overpowering like a couple of other things have been, notably the Boots set doesn't OHKO certain picks like Bulky Palafin and there are generically bulky mons it can't hit super effectively like Iron Hands and Gholdengo in a 1v1, but these mons still don't appreciate having to come in on it at all. Non Boots sets also require hazard support and can sometimes struggle into a Gholdengo Hazard Stack to get more than one entry point, not as much of an issue for the Booster Energy one although it does become much easier to revenge kill / prevent the setup in the first place.
Other things I've enjoyed / noticed in this meta:
Priority mons in general like Scizor, Dnite (Terra Normal this bitch its really strong), Breloom, Lokix are all really useful to have on a team with how insane the speed tiers to start this gen are.
Glimmora's such a piece of shit I love her, really interesting hazard stack mon that has tons of flexibility for what you want with the support movepool. Nihilego wishes it got Earth Power like this mon does, but the speed tier is just a bit unfortunate with it losing to both Past / Future Donphan. Memento / Explosion to block slower hazard removal is also nice in the Corv MU.
Espathra's definitely a meme but a fun cheese option, been using CM Stored Power Protect with Tera Fairy and T-spikes support, owned by Kingambit unfortunately but you can BS wins vs a lot of things you wouldnt expect to.
Feel like there's a lot of mons not in the spotlight atm that will really become crazier after the first couple weeks are dealt with and the meta starts to slow down, Chien Pao feels like the main contender here as it is somewhat held in check by how weak it is to Priority and the typing but it can still bs games with how strong it is and its own priority. Definitely see Iron Valiant being a benefactory of the Flutter Mane / Houndstone ban as well when its offensive checks start to dwindle.
Palafin has to go.
It's not completely overpowering like a couple of other things have been, notably the Boots set doesn't OHKO certain picks like Bulky Palafin and there are generically bulky mons it can't hit super effectively like Iron Hands and Gholdengo in a 1v1, but these mons still don't appreciate having to come in on it at all. Non Boots sets also require hazard support and can sometimes struggle into a Gholdengo Hazard Stack to get more than one entry point, not as much of an issue for the Booster Energy one although it does become much easier to revenge kill / prevent the setup in the first place.
Other things I've enjoyed / noticed in this meta:
Priority mons in general like Scizor, Dnite (Terra Normal this bitch its really strong), Breloom, Lokix are all really useful to have on a team with how insane the speed tiers to start this gen are.
Glimmora's such a piece of shit I love her, really interesting hazard stack mon that has tons of flexibility for what you want with the support movepool. Nihilego wishes it got Earth Power like this mon does, but the speed tier is just a bit unfortunate with it losing to both Past / Future Donphan. Memento / Explosion to block slower hazard removal is also nice in the Corv MU.
Espathra's definitely a meme but a fun cheese option, been using CM Stored Power Protect with Tera Fairy and T-spikes support, owned by Kingambit unfortunately but you can BS wins vs a lot of things you wouldnt expect to.
Feel like there's a lot of mons not in the spotlight atm that will really become crazier after the first couple weeks are dealt with and the meta starts to slow down, Chien Pao feels like the main contender here as it is somewhat held in check by how weak it is to Priority and the typing but it can still bs games with how strong it is and its own priority. Definitely see Iron Valiant being a benefactory of the Flutter Mane / Houndstone ban as well when its offensive checks start to dwindle.
Palafin has to go.
Made a fairly lengthy post about him which you can find here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-metagame-discussion-see-post-163.3710915/post-9404003 tl;dr insanely fast and nearly impossible to switch into, for a lot of teams this thing coming out means you that you have to sack something
Being able to use Acrobatics after consuming Booster Energy is great. Thankfully its not another Normal Gem situation cause of its below average attack stat. Can't tell if its better to Booster SpAtk or Speed.
Funny (and bad) set I thought of:
Damn You Do Do Do Do (Iron Bundle) @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Ice Spinner
- Flip Turn
- Protect
Naturally bad Atk stat? Who cares! Just dump all the EVs and Nature into boosting it bruh. You can run Flying Type tera if you want STAB Acrobatics ig.
If only slowking-g was still here
but yeah bundle is terrifying. I guess the only downside is running specs is hard b/c hazard removal is so tight.
Broken, please do a quickban vote on it
I doubt glowking would keep it from being broken though, would just give one more answer to Bundle. Having to run Blissey and Glowking to beat it as well as other more niche sets to beat it isn't healthy in the slightest.
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HUGE MECHANICS UPDATE
When Protosynthesis / Quark Drive boost Speed, its by 50%, but for ANY other stat, its 30%!!!
When Protosynthesis / Quark Drive boost Speed, its by 50%, but for ANY other stat, its 30%!!!
I'm probably going to revert back to Sylveon - though it's a bit of a copium answer untill I find something better:
220+ SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Bundle: 190-225 (75 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Assault Vest Sylveon: 147-174 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Not the most reliable answer but like, idk anything better rn. Hyper Voice hits through sub too.
But again, hazards hurt this set a lot. Might experiment with Fairy Tera to get 2x stab and be able to invest more EVs into bulk but yeah I really cant find any other answers beyond Blissey that can endure multiple switchins
Alternatively, a full-on SPDef version:
+1 252+ SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 171-202 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Bundle: 142-168 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Probably better, however the downside is that it has to spend 2 turns with WishTect to heal itself back up, which is a massive momentum drain. But at least if Bundle swaps out, it loses the Booster.
EDIT: If the stat boost is only 30%, it might be more manageable! Although it can still run specs, which skews these calcs more towards 2HKOs
252+ SpA Life Orb Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 149-177 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Other mons in my list of considerations so far include Iron Hands, Florges and Umbreon
252+ SpA Life Orb Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 188 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 152-179 (30.6 - 36%) -- 47% chance to 3HKO
80 Atk Iron Hands Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 206-246 (81.4 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 133-156 (36.9 - 43.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Bundle: 171-202 (67.5 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Can also run Snarl to hit through sub and reduce it's SpA252+ SpA Life Orb Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Umbreon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Bundle: 87-103 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The main problem is that hazards are a massive issue for most of these answers. Even a single layer of spikes + rocks can turn these 3HKOs into 2HKOs
Also these options are not considering Terastalize, doing so opens up more answers like Steel Tera Gastrodon, or Vaporeon. For the sake of consistency I want to figure out answers without terastalize first because there are definitely situations where a defensive tera like this would be hard to pull off.
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Iron bundle stocks plummet 4000%
Finch ruining like an hour worth of quoting posts on Tera typing in a 2 sentence post letsgo
Defensively, there's some really easy answers if you commit tera typing. Anything with Water Absorb and tera fire is a fun answer. Clodsire specifically would probably prefer Tera Ghost which handles it too.
252+ SpA Iron Bundle Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire (Ghost): 88-105 (18.9 - 22.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Its SpA isn't so overbearing that I can't just outbulk it with something like Sylveon/Umbreon (opinion pending) or speed Scream Tail:
252+ SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jigglypuff: 169-201 (38.9 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If this thing is under a 50 (now 30%) boost obviously there's a problem but we do have EVs to spare here. It hasn't been something I've had to do much thinking about since Blissey exists but water absorb Tera switch will be one of my main Tera switches right now to beat Palafin.
Defensively, there's some really easy answers if you commit tera typing. Anything with Water Absorb and tera fire is a fun answer. Clodsire specifically would probably prefer Tera Ghost which handles it too.
252+ SpA Iron Bundle Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire (Ghost): 88-105 (18.9 - 22.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Its SpA isn't so overbearing that I can't just outbulk it with something like Sylveon/Umbreon (opinion pending) or speed Scream Tail:
252+ SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jigglypuff: 169-201 (38.9 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If this thing is under a 50 (now 30%) boost obviously there's a problem but we do have EVs to spare here. It hasn't been something I've had to do much thinking about since Blissey exists but water absorb Tera switch will be one of my main Tera switches right now to beat Palafin.
Flutter Mane and Houndstone got banned yesterday. If you want more info, the thread with the ban and vote is pinned.
Yep that makes iron bundle even more broken than it already is, wow as if bundle could be any more broken..
Finch please tell me the council is planning on doing a Quickban vote on iron bundle...
If anything this mechanic makes iron bundle more broken since it can beat pult now
To everyone asking about votes and bans, there will be a new On The Radar posted tonight or tomorrow night (alongside an edit to the Viability List). We then intend to vote later in the week like we did this past week.
This way we have a clear line of communication and transparency while remaining proactive, but we still have some restraint and checks in terms of a timeline rather than a “let’s ban all the crazy shit rn” mentality.
This way we have a clear line of communication and transparency while remaining proactive, but we still have some restraint and checks in terms of a timeline rather than a “let’s ban all the crazy shit rn” mentality.
How do you think this impacts your views on the paradox mons? For instance, does this change your views on roaring moon and its status in regards to suspect testing, quick ban, etc?
Thanks so another on the radar is coming it seems, honestly feels necessary right now!
So bundle, Chien Pao, and Palafin are all being looked into most likely judging by the current discourse! Thanks for the update!
I wonder what's scarier: lead Palafin or non-lead Palafin. Because I think I have a potential check for lead Palafin that might not really work if it's non-lead Palafin
It’s too early to tell. I’m at work and haven’t gotten a chance to think it through; it’ll be especially noted when I play more games later today or tomorrow, so then I’ll have a better grasp.
Maybe I'm a dumbass idiot but I assumed we thought all stats got a 1.5x boost, and now the boosts to everything but speed are lower, so this is more of a nerf
thankfully doesn't change flutter manes stupidity either way so I still don't have to see that thing ever again. small victories
WELL THAT CHANGES A LOT.
I... don't know that I can comment much anymore on a lot of things now! Namely, while I do think Iron Bundle can still be too pressurizing, this is a significant nerf from where we thought it was! Similarly, while in no means gamebreaking, it does mess up other Pokemon I both thought were in a good spot already or thought would get better, such as Iron Moth, Iron Hands, and Great Tusk. Not enough to ruin them, but enough to pull em back a bit. I think the only Pokemon to get better is Iron Treads, and even that is kinda eh considering that's a Rapid Spin user anyways. Also glad that this means Sun isn't as bad. I was not liking Sun in this meta.
Do think Roaring Moon still benefits a lot, especially under Sun, and likely too much with Flutter Mane gone. Same goes for Iron Valiant, which should likely always boost its Speed bar strange wallbreaker sets. Flutter Mane also still deserves to be banned lmao.
Very glad to hear this though, and I think I am officially silencing myself on most Paradox Pokemon besides the already radar'd two until this is implemented. Still here for bans like Chien-Pao and Palafin.
First time poster so not sure if this is the right place to post a suggestion like this, but wanted to see what people thought of a potential rule idea to help keep gen 9 unique with terrastalization but not too broken that it needs to be banned like dynamax.
I think there's a delicate balance between making a metagame fun with rule changes and letting the game function as designed. One inherent nerf to previous mechanics like Mega-evolution and Z-moves was that your pokemon was forced to use a held item to utilize those mechanics. Some people have talked about making enemy tera-types visible to you so you at least know what each pokemon could terrastalize to if they wanted, but that might feel too like too drastic of a change to in-game mechanics.
My proposal if Terrastalization begins feeling too broken or unhealthy is to introduce a rule/clause that states you can only terrastalize a pokemon holding no item, or only a specific useless item. This way it would work like Mega-Stones or Z-Crystals where you need to build your team committing to losing a different useful held item if you want to use these specific mechanics, and when battling an opponent you can scout if a pokemon is holding a different item like leftovers and then know that they won't be a terrastalization threat. The only edge cases to consider are how we would want Knock Off to interact (ie. would a pokemon with their item knocked off be able to terrastalize afterwards?).
Anyways, I wonder what people think of this idea -- has something like this been considered or tested before in the past? does it feel in line with other bans/clauses in place for competitive health?
I think there's a delicate balance between making a metagame fun with rule changes and letting the game function as designed. One inherent nerf to previous mechanics like Mega-evolution and Z-moves was that your pokemon was forced to use a held item to utilize those mechanics. Some people have talked about making enemy tera-types visible to you so you at least know what each pokemon could terrastalize to if they wanted, but that might feel too like too drastic of a change to in-game mechanics.
My proposal if Terrastalization begins feeling too broken or unhealthy is to introduce a rule/clause that states you can only terrastalize a pokemon holding no item, or only a specific useless item. This way it would work like Mega-Stones or Z-Crystals where you need to build your team committing to losing a different useful held item if you want to use these specific mechanics, and when battling an opponent you can scout if a pokemon is holding a different item like leftovers and then know that they won't be a terrastalization threat. The only edge cases to consider are how we would want Knock Off to interact (ie. would a pokemon with their item knocked off be able to terrastalize afterwards?).
Anyways, I wonder what people think of this idea -- has something like this been considered or tested before in the past? does it feel in line with other bans/clauses in place for competitive health?
At first glance, Iron Bundle and Iron Moth seem like they should be the chief beneficiaries of Flutter Mane's ban as the next special attacking Paradox `mons up, but Iron Bundle is clearly the stronger option. By, like, a lot.
Why? Speed Creep. In the Booster Energy metagame, at least, base 110 speed, just doesn't do it. Iron Moth needs to either run Scarf to get +1 speed or else grossly sacrifice its Sp Attack if it wants a Quark Drive boost (Timid/132 Sp Attack to get a speed boost from Quark Drive). Enabling Paradox speed boosts is even more important with the new mechanics news.
Iron Bundle, on the other hand, can run Modest with 212 SpA/252 Spe and get a Quark Drive boost to speed, at which point it's running 370 SpA and 371 Spe before any boosts, which is...pretty nuts combined with Freeze Dry+Hydro Pump coverage. It can also just run 252/252 Timid and outrun +2 Spe Jolly Great Tusk after a boost. It's not quite Flutter Mane's 135/135 madness, but it also has the benefit of higher bulk on the physical side (where most priority hits it) and the added possibility of running in Hail to boost that defense further:
Worst Case Scenario in Hail:
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle in Hail: 194-230 (73.4 - 87.1%)
It doesn't have the coverage or setup options of Flutter Mane, but it hits hard enough neutrally that it doesn't _really_ need them, and it's got plenty of set versatility even if Tera and Booster Energy go (all it really needs is Hydro Pump + Freeze Dry and then it's a pick-a-mix of Ice Beam/Protect/Encore/Taunt/U-Turn/Flip Turn to be a menace with either boots or Choice sets). It's definitely constricting right now, and while it may be more manageable if Booster Energy were to get the axe, it's nearly worth running e-terrain for on its own (Specs with Quark Drive boost to speed is something and a half).
Iron Moth, on the other hand, does have some pretty sweet coverage options, but even with Booster Energy, it really needs Tera Typing to be more than a late-match cleaner (I think Grass terra is its best option to sponge/revenge Earthquakes and Jet Punches, to the extent that a base 60 Defense can sponge anything). I think that if Tera Goes, it will be a threat on par with normal Volc and not remotely broken.
Further thoughts on Palafin and Tera coming...sometime.
Why? Speed Creep. In the Booster Energy metagame, at least, base 110 speed, just doesn't do it. Iron Moth needs to either run Scarf to get +1 speed or else grossly sacrifice its Sp Attack if it wants a Quark Drive boost (Timid/132 Sp Attack to get a speed boost from Quark Drive). Enabling Paradox speed boosts is even more important with the new mechanics news.
Iron Bundle, on the other hand, can run Modest with 212 SpA/252 Spe and get a Quark Drive boost to speed, at which point it's running 370 SpA and 371 Spe before any boosts, which is...pretty nuts combined with Freeze Dry+Hydro Pump coverage. It can also just run 252/252 Timid and outrun +2 Spe Jolly Great Tusk after a boost. It's not quite Flutter Mane's 135/135 madness, but it also has the benefit of higher bulk on the physical side (where most priority hits it) and the added possibility of running in Hail to boost that defense further:
Worst Case Scenario in Hail:
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle in Hail: 194-230 (73.4 - 87.1%)
It doesn't have the coverage or setup options of Flutter Mane, but it hits hard enough neutrally that it doesn't _really_ need them, and it's got plenty of set versatility even if Tera and Booster Energy go (all it really needs is Hydro Pump + Freeze Dry and then it's a pick-a-mix of Ice Beam/Protect/Encore/Taunt/U-Turn/Flip Turn to be a menace with either boots or Choice sets). It's definitely constricting right now, and while it may be more manageable if Booster Energy were to get the axe, it's nearly worth running e-terrain for on its own (Specs with Quark Drive boost to speed is something and a half).
Iron Moth, on the other hand, does have some pretty sweet coverage options, but even with Booster Energy, it really needs Tera Typing to be more than a late-match cleaner (I think Grass terra is its best option to sponge/revenge Earthquakes and Jet Punches, to the extent that a base 60 Defense can sponge anything). I think that if Tera Goes, it will be a threat on par with normal Volc and not remotely broken.
Further thoughts on Palafin and Tera coming...sometime.
Ever thought of luring in a Pokemon that is very strong with one that seems very easy to take care of until it's revealed too late that they have Focus Sash? Because that's my idea for a lead Palafin check (Could also be done against non-lead Palafin but you have to make sure that there's no hazards on your side of the battlefield)
It's most certainly a nerf on the offensive side. And I can't comment much on flutter mane but it potentially changes some people's views on something like flutter mane. Certainly a powerful boost but it's without a doubt tamer.
Honestly, I'd like more people to start assessing dragapult's place, which is severely ignored atm imho. It's got one of the absolute best speed tiers but greatly benefits from tera. tera ghost physical sets are insanely good and I truly believe is flying under the radar at the moment for some reason even with flutter mane gone.
Tera types being announced at team preview does not break cart mechanics and is literally no different than a gentleman’s agreement not to click the mega evolve button on Rayquaza. You can’t replicate this on a switch but you can certainly do this IRL which seems to be the base line for numerous clauses.
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