Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[skierdude101]

you can Defog vs a Defiant or Competitive Pokemon. This is not Defog deterrent it literally makes it impossible

What if i just run a team full of suicide mons so your defog fails and you can't clear hazards? Would you think that's unfair too and want to ban Explosion? Memento? Where does it stop!

 

[Finchinator]

With the usage of the new core mechanic consistently being optimized, I think now is a good time to provide some examples (not in any particular order or even necessarily the 10 best) of it taking effect in our metagame! Some of these examples may outline why Terastallization makes certain Pokemon problematic or why it may be problematic depending on how you view it, too.

Effective Examples of Terastallization in SV OU


Palafin-Hero @ Leftovers
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water or Steel
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Taunt
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch

Palafin is perhaps the best Pokemon right now, and it is a major beneficiary of Terastallization. On the offensive end, many teams use Tera Water with it to bolster the strength of Jet Punch further; a double STAB priority Jet Punch off of 160 Atk with a Bulk Up boost or two is laughably strong to the point that it is very likely Palafin will be banned.

On the flip side, Tera Steel allows it to get around some would-be counters, which makes Palafin's whole presence even scarier. Take Grass types like Amoonguss, for example. In theory, it would counter the most common Palafin set, but if you Tera to a Steel type and Taunt to prevent status, then suddenly Palafin resists all incoming attacks and cannot be statused, rendering Amoonguss set-up fodder until Palafin is strong enough to break past it.


Iron Bundle @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Freeze-Dry
- Taunt

Iron Bundle is another Pokemon currently on the tiering radar that benefits from a timely Terastallization; it is not as common a user as Palafin necessarily, but a timely STAB Water Tera can make it reach unreasonable levels of strength to the point that Blissey will be the only true answer to it (and even it is susceptible to Taunt, so it is only a true answer a couple of times if it is not allowed openings). Getting the extra boost on Hydro Pump makes it a nuclear option on Iron Bundle if it connects essentially. It also has defensive merit in that it no longer can get revenge killed easily by things like Mach Punch from Breloom while it also resists Bullet Punch from Scizor if it tries to pick off a weakened Iron Bundle.


Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake / Dragon Claw
- Crunch
- Acrobatics

Roaring Moon is one of the best examples of non-STAB Terastallization bolstering offensive and defensive prospects simultaneously. Roaring Moon initially began running Flying as its Tera type in order to resist Mach Punch and other Fighting moves, neutralize Fairy attacks to get away from a gnarly 4x weakness, and steal turns in the Great Tusk match-up. These are predominantly defensive attributes that you can see gained from a surprise change in typing as it is challenging to account for both Roaring Moon initially and Roaring Moon with a vastly different typing all in one. However, it soon morphed into much more as Booster Energy's consumption allowed for Acrobatics to be boosted by STAB, making Roaring Moon even more threatening offensively as well as it destroys many common Fairy and Fighting type Pokemon that do not suspect this.


Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Normal / Steel / Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake / Fire Punch
- Extreme Speed

Dragonite is the first old generation Pokemon we will discuss, and perhaps the offensively oriented Pokemon with the most viable Tera types. Let's break each down:

• Normal allows for boosted Extreme Speed to function at levels we have not seen since the days of Ekiller Arceus in Ubers while also giving you a sudden resist to Ghost from fast Pokemon like Dragapult and Scarf Gholdengo. It also grants neutrality to Fairy, Ice, and Dragon type attacks while the Fighting type weakness is hard to exploit initially as Dragonite resists it initially.
• Steel is the best defensive compliment as you turn many Fairy type Pokemon into set-up fodder and opposing Dragons suddenly have to rely on coverage to damage you. It lacks the offensive component of Normal or Fire, but in many match-ups it grants you a free turn or two upon being used if timed properly. Offensive teams in particular struggle to play around this as they are already flimsier into a Multiscale set-up sweeper with priority, so adding on a free turn can be very problematic.
• Fire is perhaps the least common of the three, but it allows for Dragonite to blow past a number of Steel types with Fire Punch while also resisting Fairy and Ice, which gives it a similar defensive profile to Steel in select match-ups.

Espathra @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Fairy / Fight
EVs: 8 HP / 148 Def / 120 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Protect / Substitute / Roost
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam / Tera Blast

Espathra is a unique case because a lot of us pictured it to be a niche option and maybe more of a lower tier mainstay, especially given how fragile and free-turn reliant it could be, but it has developed into a nice OU win-condition thanks to Terastallization. Fairy is very common on it and it bolsters Dazzling Gleam's strength into would-be problematic Dark types while also flipping its defensive profile entirely -- suddenly it resists Sucker Punch, soaks up Dragon type attacks, and is not weak to Shadow Ball. Fighting functions similarly, but it is better off into things like Kingambit in exchange for the Dragon type match-up. Clear benefits are provided both offensively and defensively for Espartha via Tera.


Dragapult (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- U-turn

Dragapult is pretty straightforward as with Tera Ghost it does not change too much defensively; it just becomes much stronger with one of the most spammable moves in the game while being one of the fastest Pokemon in the game. Dragapult was quiet initially, but as soon as Flutter Mane was removed, it took over as one of the best Pokemon in the tier again and Specs Shadow Ball is awesome like it was last generation. Boosting that throughout games makes it very hard for offensive teams to contain it consistently.


Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Bug Buzz
- Giga Drain

Volcarona has not been the most common Pokemon in the initial days of this generation, but it has a very clever niche with Tera Grass, especially in a Palafin and Iron Bundle infested metagame. It can go from being weak to Water type attacks such as a priority Jet Punch or a Hydro Punch from the two aforementioned Pokemon respectively to being resistant. It then gains STAB on Giga Drain, too, so it can quickly dispose of these Pokemon even without boosts.


Annihilape @ Chesto Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 156 SpD / 100 Spe
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Rage Fist
- Rest / Taunt
- Bulk Up

Annihilape has swept the scene up recently, taking the metagame by storm with Rage Fist abuse. A timely Tera Water can help bolster it defensively a great deal with new resistances coupled with less weaknesses. It is very easy for Rage Fist to scale out of control due to this dynamic! Pair this with a timely Rest to increase the amount of hits it can tank or Taunt to force bulkier Pokemon to give set-up or attack it weakly to boost Rage Fist and you get a pretty awesome strategy, which is partially thanks to the presence of Tera Water defensively.


Chien-Pao @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Ice Spinner

Chien-Pao standalone is already quite strong thanks to Sword of Ruin dwarfing the defense of foes, but couple this with a potential Tera Fighting and you have a whole new ballgame. This grants you neutrality to otherwise surefire revenge killing options like Breloom Mach Punch and Scizor Bullet Punch for starters, but it also gives you STAB on Sacred Sword. It is pretty impossible to tackle STAB Dark+Ice+Fighting. Sacred Sword can suddenly muscle past Avalugg, Garganacl, Iron Treads, and others!


Slowking @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Slack Off
- Chilly Reception
- Future Sight

As ayevon alluded to here and here, Slowking is a very underrated defensive beneficiary of Tera Water. Despite it being a STAB already, losing the weakness to Ghost and Dark can go a long way against Gholdengo, Dragapult, Chi-Yu, and many other prominent special attackers while the extra boost to Surf's power cannot hurt either.

I hope this post gives everyone a sufficient outlook on how Tera can benefit Pokemon offensively and defensively (sometimes at the same time/in the same interactions). Happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate, too.

 

[akuto]

We're like 10 days into the Meta, I get that some of the stuff mentioned was kind of fringe but we really shouldn't be closing our minds. Just because it isn't used much right now doesn't mean its not viable. It took a while for people to catch onto Garganacl and Annihilape and early on tiering predictions didn't really have those 2 that highly ranked. There's still time and space for developments to happen. Yeah, the fat spdef mons are more passive, but it still blankets special attackers. I've been pretty happy with what Blissey does for me in games. To each there own i guess

Priority-wise, I'd say Bundle is pretty middle of the road, resist Jet Punch, resist Ice Shard, neutral Bullet, neutral sucker, neutral first imp, super effective mach. Since its all physical pretty hard to get Bundle to drop from full, but from 60% has been possible in my experience, which isn't too tall a task with hazards.

Generally feel like scarfers are bit under explored at the moment. There's plenty of mons that outspeed unboosted Bundle with a scarf that can OHKO it, like the rotoms. As for a speed Boosted Bundle, then it doesn't pack as much a punch! Definitely a threatening cleaner, but there are defensive outs.

Overall, I think Iron Bundle is probably too much, just don't think it's as obviously broken and QB hammer-able as Palafin and the other two.

Also AV Slitherwing ain't that bad . Definitely, struggles with the hazard centric meta, but it grabs some nice KOs on things thinking you die and having first impression is great.

Think alot of people are refusing to accept the idea that new mons being viable in a dex-cut gen with a whole new pool of pokemon = a meta shift and the same playstyles and team compositions will still work just as well as gen 8.

People are also refusing to accept the idea that aslong as we're allowing tera to stay in the standard ou format that its a viable way to counter or check pokemon that would usually be problematic for you

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

Palafin-Hero @ Leftovers
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water or Steel
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe

whats the 20 speed for?

Espathra @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Fairy / Fight
EVs: 8 HP / 148 Def / 120 SpA / 232 Spe

whats the evs for?

 

[Finchinator]

whats the 20 speed for?

whats the evs for?

Former is just the standard spread we see on ladder a lot -- mostly creep.

Latter allows you to live +1 DClaw from DNite pre-Tera and EQ from Chomp after SR while outrunning Chomp and base 100s at +0 speed and having enough SAtk to kill Chomp at +1 with DGleam and Fairy Tera.

 

[Kataphraktoi]

I really just want to accurately assert if people's problem is in fact that hazards can constantly stick in, in which case, why would it be so much more different than Magic Guard, Magic Bounce or even Defiant to some extent, would you think the same if Gholdengo for example had Competitive instead?

None of those abilities literally prevent spin or defog from taking effect. Give Gholdengo a special-type Defiant, thats fine. Then the defog user gets slammed for a bad predict, thats fine. Of if the String Cheese Man hadnt been conveniently immune to both spin moves now available. Too bad we cant have varied-type Rapid Spin like in Revelationmons OM for instance.

Personally I wouldnt ban the poke, just the move. Unfortunately smogon never has comprehended the simple concept of a 'none' ability and insists on effectively banning the mon. (Im still salty about Garchomp DPP ban and always will be)

 

[BolTingBlazie]

None of those abilities literally prevent spin or defog from taking effect. Give Gholdengo a special-type Defiant, thats fine. Then the defog user gets slammed for a bad predict, thats fine. Of if the String Cheese Man hadnt been conveniently immune to both spin moves now available. Too bad we cant have varied-type Rapid Spin like in Revelationmons OM for instance.

Personally I wouldnt ban the poke, just the move. Unfortunately smogon never has comprehended the simple concept of a 'none' ability and insists on effectively banning the mon. (Im still salty about Garchomp DPP ban and always will be)

The official OU format is supposed to be as close to the actual game mechanics as humanly possible, so no banning good as gold would not work.

Right now I think Gholdengo is obnoxious but not banworthy.

 

[Outhman]

None of those abilities literally prevent spin or defog from taking effect. Give Gholdengo a special-type Defiant, thats fine. Then the defog user gets slammed for a bad predict, thats fine. Of if the String Cheese Man hadnt been conveniently immune to both spin moves now available. Too bad we cant have varied-type Rapid Spin like in Revelationmons OM for instance.

Personally I wouldnt ban the poke, just the move. Unfortunately smogon never has comprehended the simple concept of a 'none' ability and insists on effectively banning the mon. (Im still salty about Garchomp DPP ban and always will be)

Uh. Gholdengo doesn't get any other ability. How do you even decide that, and if that were to be the case, what would you even give it and how would you even decide in what giving it

That just seems to be too complicated to implement, but that's just opening an avenue for all type of non sense not only in gen 9 but in all of the other gens. Abilities are a defining part of pokemon but they're also how you identify them as well, and honestly that's just... way too much hecking work for everyone. That's just apparent to making a complex ban and there are no limits to those, it's wayyyy too complicated and stupid to even bother with that, not only for veterans but also new players

Also Garchomp was a combination of amazing traits, it wasn't just because it could "hax", it had arguably the best dual combination, a nearly unmatched speedtier and a plethora of options at its disposal

 

[TheRealBigC]

We're like 10 days into the Meta, I get that some of the stuff mentioned was kind of fringe but we really shouldn't be closing our minds. Just because it isn't used much right now doesn't mean its not viable. It took a while for people to catch onto Garganacl and Annihilape and early on tiering predictions didn't really have those 2 that highly ranked. There's still time and space for developments to happen. Yeah, the fat spdef mons are more passive, but it still blankets special attackers. I've been pretty happy with what Blissey does for me in games. To each there own i guess

Priority-wise, I'd say Bundle is pretty middle of the road, resist Jet Punch, resist Ice Shard, neutral Bullet, neutral sucker, neutral first imp, super effective mach. Since its all physical pretty hard to get Bundle to drop from full, but from 60% has been possible in my experience, which isn't too tall a task with hazards.

Generally feel like scarfers are bit under explored at the moment. There's plenty of mons that outspeed unboosted Bundle with a scarf that can OHKO it, like the rotoms. As for a speed Boosted Bundle, then it doesn't pack as much a punch! Definitely a threatening cleaner, but there are defensive outs.

Overall, I think Iron Bundle is probably too much, just don't think it's as obviously broken and QB hammer-able as Palafin and the other two.

Also AV Slitherwing ain't that bad . Definitely, struggles with the hazard centric meta, but it grabs some nice KOs on things thinking you die and having first impression is great.

Thanks for the response. I appreciate it is early days for the meta and there's certainly room for development, but the issue with Iron Bundle is hardly anything deals with it even on paper from the pool of mons we have right now. I would describe it as a metagame-warping force that massively constrains teambuilding in a similar manner to something like Dracovish from the previous gen, and even if you bring something that checks in theory, it can easily play around its checks using unpredictable sets, switching moves and hazards. I wouldn't call it as blatantly OP as something like Flutter Mane or Palafin, but it's very close; to me it basically just replaced Flutter Mane as a blazing fast special nuke that's nearly impossible to switch into and gets slapped on every team. I think it warrants a quickban personally, potentially followed by a suspect later down the line if people really want it.

With regards to sets, yes you can play around Iron Bundle depending on the set, but you're not going to know what sets you'll be facing in the builder and it's pretty much impossible to deal with them all without bringing some kind of dedicated wall. Scarfers just aren't a reliable answer; something like Scarf Rotom will be blown away by Booster Energy, Scarf or Electric Terrain variants.

As for AV Slither Wing, I really think if you're using Slither Wing in a defensive role you should run HDB with Will-O-Wisp + Morning Sun, because physically defensive Slither Wing can actually function as a good counter to the Donphans and can shut down some other physical threats like Roaring Moon. I don't see what AV Slither Wing accomplishes besides being able to switch into Iron Bundle a grand total of one time (assuming hazards aren't up, because it can't even do that if they're up). It has no recovery, not much bulk, and can't exactly function as a special wall against stuff like Specs Iron Valiant or Psyshock Gholdengo. AV Iron Hands seems to fulfil the same role but better in just about every way. But hey, if you're finding it useful then don't let me stop you

 

[Bakugames]

. Unfortunately smogon never has comprehended the simple concept of a 'none' ability and insists on effectively banning the mon.

Lmk when you can have a none ability mon without cheating or having 4 mons fucking with worry seed shenanigans or whatever and I'm sure the tierleaders will consider your case

 

[Finchinator]

If Gholdengo is broken, we would simply ban Gholdengo. Banning an ability that only one Pokemon gets with nothing else getting it even being on the horizon would not make any sense.

 

[coral fan]

Thought I'd write up my thoughts on the initial meta.

Quickban
Palafin
Iron Bundle
Both of these are extremely restrictive at the moment and I feel that the majority of players I've talked to see these as broken mons. I haven't kept up with all the posts on here but I'm guessing most arguments for these two have already been made, so I'll keep it brief.
Palafin especially has ways to break through all of its checks and, like Gen 8's Dracovish, basically forces Water immunes or physdef Grasses. Whilst I'm generally more accepting of complex bans compared to other competitive players, I don't think a Jet Punch ban would be enough to make a ban unecessary. Stats-wise this mon is like Water-type Rayquaza and shouldn't be allowed near OU.
Iron Bundle's only switchins are overly defensive, passive spdef pokemon, and its insane speed + Booster Energy options for either spatk or more speed means that offensive teams almost always have to sack vs it. It's a big factor in the current polarisation between stall and HO, imo.

Suspect Test Soon (and/or give more time)
Annihilape
Gholdengo
Annihilape is almost too good of a stallbreaker and it punishes U-Turns and Defogs to a pretty insane degree. Rage Fist is insanely good, but I lean more towards a potential Annihilape ban since regular, Kantonian Primeape also gets the move and will likely not be broken with it due to the lack of STAB and inferior bulk. We all know Ghost/Fighting has unresisted coverage but the real problem is STAB Rage Fist on a bulky, strong pokemon. Plus it's got the best Final Gambit in history if that means anything, lol.
Gholdengo is just a lame pokemon, it's hard to describe my problems with it, I just don't like the way it trivialises hazard removal and is pretty polarising in its matchups, eg completely destroying Breloom and Amoonguss, but is always forced out by Chi-Yu and Dondozo. I feel it's one of the biggest causes of polarisation between HO/hazardstack and stall, and it's overall just not great for the meta. Its typing and ability are just too good. Oh, and it really doesn't help that pretty much every hazard remover loses to it.

Other restrictive forces to watch out for once the above mons are decided on.
Roaring Moon
Garganacl
Espathra
Chi-Yu
Chien-Pao
Terastalisation
Cyclizar OR Shed Tail
Roaring Moon is pretty insane but its STABs aren't actually too great (no Knock Off for an offensive Dark always hurts). A cool set I've seen is Booster Energy DD Acro EQ w/ Tera Flying. Like he's Dragonite on steroids. Unsure about it for now, though.
Garganacl is just really annoying. Salt Cure is a great move and its Iron Defense Body Press set in conjuction with Terastalisation and burn/poison immunity means it can be really tough to deal with. It might get to a point where it's overly restrictive, but I don't think we're there yet. Not a Garganacl fan.
Espathra's Speed Boost CM Stored Power set is the best HO cheese mon we've had for a while. It's like if CPSP Mew and Blaziken had a child. I think the meta needs to settle before taking any action on it, though.
Chi-Yu is kinda like Gen 8's Specs Blacephalon. Will probably stay as a top threat of the metagame but special Dark/Fire can be switched into by a decent amount of mons if you can predict ok so I don't feel action is needed right now.
Chien-Pao is kinda like Gen 8's Weavile, who was a top 5 mon there. I think the lack of Knock and Axel limit Chien-Pao just enough for it to be fine, for now. The lack of good ice/dark/fighting switchins like Fini, pre-nerf Pex and Buzzwole obviously make a big difference, though.
Terastalisation seems to make broken mons even more broken but doesn't seem to be the problem right now. Of course it's great on a lot of the mons I've mentioned but spending resources on your best pokemon have always been good strategies, like how banned gen 7 or natdex mons were also often great Z-Move abusers. I'm definitely biased because right now I find it really fun to play around with, but it might end up being the final straw for a bunch of the above mons getting banned, so banning Tera should be a consideration if it feels like too many offensive mon bans are being done with no real benefit to the meta's health.
Players aren't too experienced with handling Shed Tail yet, making Cyclizar's Regen+Shed Tail pretty strong. I have a feeling it'll be handled better as players are more experienced, though. Orthworm also gets the move, but is less likely to be broken with it, so I'd suggest a potential Cyclizar suspect if its usage rises over time, and if people switch to Orthworm and Shed Tail is still too restrictive maybe a switch over to a Shed Tail ban would be justified.

Misc. thoughts
Dragapult is really good in the current meta as its an effective revenge killer for the likes of Palafin, Shed Tail-supported sweepers, Chi-Yu and Annihilape. Not banworthy and not seeing too much usage because everyone's using the new guys instead, but it's good in the current meta, imo.
Webs have gone from pretty much unviable in Gen 8 to decent in the current HO-infested meta. The webs setters are all pretty bad (Spidops, Masquerain, and Kricketune) but speed wars, Annihilape, and Gholdengo really help webs teams do well.
Phasing is really effective, again, thanks to Gholdengo enabling mindless spikestack and the general preference for HO. It keeps mons like Roaring Moon and Espartha somewhat under control. Ting-Lu is a pretty good phaser, as is Tankchomp. Maybe Red Card will see more usage on HO teams.

 

[Kataphraktoi]

Lmk when you can have a none ability mon without cheating or having 4 mons fucking with worry seed shenanigans or whatever and I'm sure the tierleaders will consider your case

Oh, I know Ill be ignored. Im just explaining what the most obvious and sensible solution is.

 

[Finchinator]

Unfortunately smogon never has comprehended the simple concept of a 'none' ability and insists on effectively banning the mon. (Im still salty about Garchomp DPP ban and always will be)

Oh, I know Ill be ignored. Im just explaining what the most obvious and sensible solution is.

Hard for Smogon to “comprehend” the incomprehensible considering that is not even possible in any type of Pokemon. But hey, I’m sorry that your “most obvious and sensible solution” that makes SV OU into Glorified Create-a-Pokemon OU will be “ignored”.

Perhaps reflect on the precedent your suggestion would set and consider how implausible it is before blaming the entire tiering system or community. Not everything is Smogon’s fault — you just have an idea that is not feasible.

 

[TheRealBigC]

Unfortunately smogon never has comprehended the simple concept of a 'none' ability and insists on effectively banning the mon.

Post this image to make smogon (stall lovers btw) shit themselves

 

[Mikegengsta]

Should bulk up as a move be looked at instead of the Pokemon? Bulk up made palafin busted and apparently it is making the masses think annihilape is busted with rage fist. Idk figure I start a new topic here

 

[Bakugames]

Oh, I know Ill be ignored. Im just explaining what the most obvious and sensible solution is.

sure

Anyway, I've been making some new teams for the no johns tournament and testing them on ladder, and I forgot how good dragapult is. Being faster than penguin is real nice, and it'll probably have more options for sets when it doesn't have to be highly aware of bundle. What sets do you guys usually run for it?

 

[Reviews2D]

Should bulk up as a move be looked at instead of the Pokemon? Bulk up made palafin busted and apparently it is making the masses think annihilape is busted with rage fist. Idk figure I start a new topic here

Plafin is restrictive on team building without bulk up, bulk up just pushes it into being broken

 

[Finchinator]

Should bulk up as a move be looked at instead of the Pokemon? Bulk up made palafin busted and apparently it is making the masses think annihilape is busted with rage fist. Idk figure I start a new topic here

No.

Bulk Up is not even the best set-up move in the game that’s allowed or even close. Both of them use Drain Punch, too — should we look into Drain Punch as well? Obviously not.

Let’s not go down this rabbit hole today. Drain Punch is not being banned.

 

[lordkira]

sure

Anyway, I've been making some new teams for the no johns tournament and testing them on ladder, and I forgot how good dragapult is. Being faster than penguin is real nice, and it'll probably have more options for sets when it doesn't have to be highly aware of bundle. What sets do you guys usually run for it?

I’m a big fan of physical sets for dragapult esp DD. DD sets with ghost or fairy/steel tera are truly astonishing

 

[Outhman]

Should bulk up as a move be looked at instead of the Pokemon? Bulk up made palafin busted and apparently it is making the masses think annihilape is busted with rage fist. Idk figure I start a new topic here

You could theorically do that for every single broken mon in the game. May too much work and not worth the trouble, you'd rather ban a mon than have a 79 lines clause to play OU if you ever do complex bans like these

 

[Mikegengsta]

No.

Bulk Up is not even the best set-up move in the game that’s allowed or even close. Both of them use Drain Punch, too — should we look into Drain Punch as well? Obviously not.

Let’s not go down this rabbit hole today. Drain Punch is not being banned.

All good. I am not trying to save the dolphin. Trying to save my pet monkey :(

 

[Outhman]

Given the consensus, 0 chance at that point. Dolphin will get the boot this weekend

 

[Shandeur]

Gonna toss my two cents in. After playing the new metagame for a bit, I believe Iron Bundle should be looked at.



There is very little counterplay to Iron Bundle, as its excellebt dual STAB combination threatens nearly the entire metagame, and it is hard to revenge kill due to it's speed. Combined with Tera Type or Booster Energy, Iron Bundle is nearly impossible to stop. It also gets moves such as Taunt and U-turn to prevent recovery or to become an excellent offensive pivot, since it really only needs its STAB Attacks. It also provides a resistance to priority from arguably the best mon in the tier as of current, Palafin. For these reasons, I believe Iron Bundle should be looked at or possibly banned.

 

[topshotta]

Bundle is not even that bad think about it as pult from last gen but with less versatility cuz its only special