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Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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Do you have the replay though? It's hard thinking about these things in isolation. Even a Scarf lele when used skillfully can hide its set. You can switch it out of weaviles and Dragapults. You can come in on things it's faster than regardless of specs or scarf (like say Nidoking) and threaten psyshock ohko but click Future Sight instead and then switch out (which isn't boosted by specs so your opponent won't tell the difference). Some of these are risky but there are ways.
You should still have in the back of your mind that if your opponent has not used Tera, then a devasating Tera type could still swing the game.
and there's nothing stopping Kingambit from theorectically using a Tera as well to sway things.
I personally have refrained from putting my input to this thread, but with what others are saying, I would just like to say, items and Tera are essentially the same thing. Items are not shown on the team preview, and the only way to find it out is if it is used. The only differences is that there are a lot more items and also items have a few abilities like frisk that tell you what they have. A normally choice scarf garchomp suddenly running a band set, for example, would completely wreck you if you were unprepared for it. And Tera can only be activated on one mon, but items are on all six. Tera will just need an understanding of the meta game in order to be predicted, and surprise factor will always be a part of Pokémon, it’s unavoidable, Tera adds more surprise but also 17x the depth while building a team. Tera blast is also just hidden power with more commitment, so limiting it wouldn’t make sense.
Item’s don’t typically change your pokemon’s type. That’s kind of a big deal.
Items do, however, change how your Pokémon plays, and have more of an impact on a game than I think Tera ever will. Dynamax mad a bit of sense, mainly because games came down exclusively to it, but I’ve had quite a few games where I genuinely never Tera’d because I wasn’t going to put myself in a better position. However, I’ve never been in a game and said “I wish I didn’t bring an item on this mon, it put me in a worse position” except for one time and that was an acrobatics mon
the vast majority of Items have notable drawbacks though. If you're comparing Tera to items, Tera is then like an item that also lets you hold another item that not only allows your pokemon to change types, but can give you stab on a coverage move or a free additional 1.5 boost. The impact is quite different from the majority of other items
Personally I use mons that do abuse it and I wish tera was banned, it makes the wins I get feel less fun/earned when it's because of tera. Not like I can just not use tera without putting myself at a disadvantage eithter
I think items complement your strategy rather than altering it. Regardless of whether my opponent's Scizor is holding a choice band or leftovers, I know what type of pokemon to use against it and using the types to your advantage was part of pokemon battling before hold items or abilities.
Tera is much better than Dynamax both in concept and in execution. Dynamax was a blight upon poke-humanity.
I agree with this take, and it's the main reasons why I think that trying Tera Type on Preview should be tried and then if that doesn't work just ban it.
I know it's a complex ban, but I still think creating a "Terastall ban list" can please both sides.
Not banning a type of tera, but like: Terastal Clause: "The following pokemon can't terastalize.".
Problems: identifying the ones that makes the mechanic broken and community complains, more suspect testing etc.
Other way is just ban the whole mechanic.
"What's the difference between this and banning certain pokemon from Dynamax in Gen 8, instead of the whole mechanic itself?"
Well, Dynamax had boosted moves that boosts stats, generates weather or terrain or decreases enemy's stats. And HP regen factor in a way like Zygarde-Complete transformation. Things like Aerial Ace were viable because of Max Airstream.
Right now Teras are used to boost it's own stabs, removes weaknesses or boost coverage. It does not gives moves, stats or stat boosts.
Edit: Actually, this will probably results in 50%+ of OU not beeing able to terastalize, since OU is the tier of pokemon borderline broken that has 2 or 3 exploitable flaws, and those can be solved with Terastal.
So, just ban Tera as a Whole.
Not banning a type of tera, but like: Terastal Clause: "The following pokemon can't terastalize.".
Problems: identifying the ones that makes the mechanic broken and community complains, more suspect testing etc.
Other way is just ban the whole mechanic.
"What's the difference between this and banning certain pokemon from Dynamax in Gen 8, instead of the whole mechanic itself?"
Well, Dynamax had boosted moves that boosts stats, generates weather or terrain or decreases enemy's stats. And HP regen factor in a way like Zygarde-Complete transformation. Things like Aerial Ace were viable because of Max Airstream.
Right now Teras are used to boost it's own stabs, removes weaknesses or boost coverage. It does not gives moves, stats or stat boosts.
Edit: Actually, this will probably results in 50%+ of OU not beeing able to terastalize, since OU is the tier of pokemon borderline broken that has 2 or 3 exploitable flaws, and those can be solved with Terastal.
So, just ban Tera as a Whole.
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Haven't read all of the posts so apologies if this was already suggested.
An alternative suggestion: using your tera form costs a whole turn. This would obviously be a large divergence from the cartridge functionality but it would ease some of the power of the new mechanic. It is quite a lot to change your typing with perfect priority and launch an attack the same turn, particularly if the attack is a newfound STAB or a type that the mon couldn't use typically. Requiring the forfeit of your turn when you tera would still give you the defensive advantage this turn and a new offensive threat on future turns, but would remove your ability to punish your opponents "misplay" for not predicting your tera.
An alternative suggestion: using your tera form costs a whole turn. This would obviously be a large divergence from the cartridge functionality but it would ease some of the power of the new mechanic. It is quite a lot to change your typing with perfect priority and launch an attack the same turn, particularly if the attack is a newfound STAB or a type that the mon couldn't use typically. Requiring the forfeit of your turn when you tera would still give you the defensive advantage this turn and a new offensive threat on future turns, but would remove your ability to punish your opponents "misplay" for not predicting your tera.
I think the issue is this can't be reasonably implemented as a gentleman's agreement. The only options currently are making the Tera pokemon click a useless move during that turn but that requires a moveslot.
That's your fault for not playing to win and not liking strength, I've only had fun with this and don't think it cheapens my wins. Grass Torkoal in doubles is the most epic Mon in the world and it's changed how my sun teams work immensely rather than being enslaved to it's Fire typing's short comings. It adds so much potential in the team builder
This is ridiculous and goes against cart mechanics not just for the sake of following them but you'd have to go out of your way to do so. They designed this to be dynamic, not to take up your whole turn
I liked this idea, like the pokemon can only terastalize if it has Tera Blast on it's move slot. I mean, not every tera abuser needs Tera Blast and this restricts the "everyone can tera with no drawback" thing.
God forbid I don't get satisfaction for victories I feel are cheap and have nothing to do with my skill. It's a video game dude, let's take it down a notch.
That's such a tiny nerf to it that I believe we'd go back to the drawing board with it. It's like banning Tera Blast, it's a restriction that isn't gonna go too far in pleasing people
On another note, anyone who can't deal with Tera types has never dealt with mixup in a fighting game. Just guess, bro. Block the hits, wall their threat come on now
I didn't make it a big deal and say "God forbid" about it so don't try makin your issue into my issue. I didn't take it up a notch, you're just sneeding
I agree, but at least it increases 4MSS of some threats if it does not tera. Actually, this is annoying. Forget this idea pls.
Saying "god forbid" is hardly making a big deal compared to you basically giving me the start of a shonen rival monologue about power. I just personally think having fun should always come before winning in any hobby, don't know why that idea seemed bad enough for you to personally reply with what you did lol
If you make it so that you have to run Tera Blast on a Pokemon if it's Tera is to be useable in battle, this still wouldn't help much on its own. The meta will change into those pokemon that like having Tera Blast on their set. And you can still bluff the Tera types at preview. The opponent won't know what's running Tera Blast and what isn't. Even revealing the Tera Types at team preview wouldn't help much with this. the opponenent still won't really know when the opponent could tera
Someone choosing not to only play the strongest strategies doesn't invalidate their opinion. You play OU, right? There are stronger pokemon in Ubers. Don't you like strength?
that is not how it works in game at all.... u cant even agree to it since pretty sure tera is like dynamax ... u use the dynamax and choose the move u want to use .... its not like u can make dyna skip a turn in game
A quick 2 cents, I like the idea of a Terastal Clause as it reminds me of banning certain megas. I know you spent the rest of your post breaking it down and ultimately feeling like banning the mechanic would be better, but as someone on the boat of 'avoid banning it', this would be a neat middle ground between full banning tera and not banning tera that feels like it makes the most sense. I don't think it'd result in '50% of the metagame not being able to tera'.
Tiering stuff so it's competitive is a huge thing in Smogon and doing this to Terstallization would set the precedent going forward for future generational mechanics that certain Pokemon, for balance, can't use the mechanic for balance reasons.
Either way, tldr banning specific mons from using Tera feels like the most clean non-total ban solution to Terastallization, fits better as a solution to attempt to balance the mechanic (saying they must hold a specific item or no item so they're megas-lite feels silly to me) and also fits organically with what Smogon already does best, tiering stuff for individual metagames.
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that doesnt sound well.... if its broken on some pokemon... its gonna be broken esp in lower tiers and a lot of mons will have to get tested to see if terra is the problem. This sounds like the dynamax uber clause that they did but dynamax was banned there to as a result of being bonkers.
"My plan worked, I hate this."
Your opponent just made the wrong read bro, this could've happened in a lot of other ways. It happens.
Especially when you have a lure set with the specific purpose of having this interaction happen.
In my opinion, showing tera type at team preview seems like the best possibilty because it still include the feature entirely. Trestallization is really strong because of the mystery around the type without it it becomes just a cool bonus which can arrive at any time and let the players guess when it's better to activate it.
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