Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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what kind of sets do people run on iron treads? i never see it discussed or used on ladder but it seems to be getting enough usage to stay firmly ou anyways. great tusk is an obvious competitor but it's cool how it's a steel, can pivot, and has the same cool utility moves great tusk has. i'm curious how people use it
Max HP, Max Sdef, Rocks, Spin, EQ, Knock. I like it more than Great Tusk, though could experiment with more sets like fast AV or even Booster Energy.
 
I honestly don't see the appeal on Mons that have just one Multi Hit move. The same Baxcalibur with 4 hits has 100 power, but with 3 hits + Life Orb has 96,5, with 3 + Never Melt Ice has 90 , with 3 + Band has 112,5. Yes, 5 hits are a thing, but 3 (average of non dice) + boosting item it's still very close in terms of power. I prefer more variance but higher maximum power, it's not the same situation as Population Bomb without Wide Lens.
I would say the advantage of dice is that it doesn't have drawbacks like loosing health or being choice locked whilst boosting your damage output and giving consistency

Its more comparable to expert belt than lo or band
 

1LDK

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I like Loaded Dice more on Breloom than LO, the miss chances are big, and since theres no ape that can tank the hits again its kinda free, and honestly, with just 1 SD, you break almost anything anyways, its more consistent overall, speaking of loaded dice, who wants to try loaded dice rock blast Ttar? :blobnom: :blobpex: :blobnom: :blobpex:
 

BlackKnight_Gawain

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Loaded Dice Breloom and Baxcalibur are actually really good, the latter more so in UU and arguably there's a case for Loaded Dice Iron Thorns (at least according to one pokeaim video). I do like running sash a bit more on Breloom to try and get a spore off on setup sweepers or more reliably revenge kill Chien Pao, but Loaded Dice at least does good chip on Gholdengo switchins, which can be a big plus if you're not running Bulldoze
 

awyp

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Max HP, Max Sdef, Rocks, Spin, EQ, Knock. I like it more than Great Tusk, though could experiment with more sets like fast AV or even Booster Energy.
Curious why you like it more than Tusk? I think Tusk outclasses it pretty decently for the most part when it comes to typing, the only benefit for Treads is it's speed tier and access to Volt Switch.
 
what kind of sets do people run on iron treads? i never see it discussed or used on ladder but it seems to be getting enough usage to stay firmly ou anyways. great tusk is an obvious competitor but it's cool how it's a steel, can pivot, and has the same cool utility moves great tusk has. i'm curious how people use it
SR EQ Knock Iron Head with Booster is my go-to for Treads. The speed boost helps check scary shit like Chien, Pult, Valiant, scarf Ghold and forces a lot of switches in general to set up SR or Knock. Steel STAB also punishes Hat trying to bounce back hazards. Ground Tera gives Treads some of the power it lacks on its own while Flying is marginally useful on any mon that prompts a response from Tusk.

There’s more to explore, obv. It theoretically can run the old Exca sash lead set, maybe scarf could be cool down the line
 
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Curious why you like it more than Tusk? I think Tusk outclasses it pretty decently for the most part when it comes to typing, the only benefit for Treads is it's speed tier and access to Volt Switch.
Very Good, I personally agree with this...the main thing i like to think about is the typing. Iron treads typing is not as good defensively as great tusk as it gets hit for super effective damage by common attacks too
 
Curious why you like it more than Tusk? I think Tusk outclasses it pretty decently for the most part when it comes to typing, the only benefit for Treads is it's speed tier and access to Volt Switch.
4 weaknesses vs 6, more resistances too. Higher bulk, especially on special side, reminds me of ORAS Drill. Immune to Toxic, so can switch into the rising Pex for free (Surf does 0). Actually consistent vs no Focus Blast Gholdengo. Steel typing is rare too, while there are many common fight Mons like Breloom, Slither Wing, Pawmot, Tauros and Iron Hands. The Mons I would be using Tusk to check are easily checked by other Mons, therefore if I use Tusk, it's for the offensive potential, while Threads is a better supporter. There are more reasons, but the main one is Threads being more comfy for me to fit into teams than Tusk, which actually requires brain to build with.
 
If heracross had better stats then it could perform well with loaded dice.
Like a mini Mega Heracross lol

Just so this isn’t a one liner I will say loaded dice Baxcalibur does feel strong to me, but I do often wish I had leftovers/ HDB/ some other item. Lots of utility in being able to hit past a substitute or through focus sash that people often forget about!
 
If heracross had better stats then it could perform well with loaded dice.
Loaded Dice Heracross seems like Mega Heracross at home. Significantly worse stats, particularly in attack, and while it does have an abilitiy that can benefit it in addition to Loaded Dice, having to rely on it being procced via outside means isn't the best. Still seems like fun, though I might prefer using Guts Heracross. Heracross in general does have a few points in its favor, like resisting most of Great Tusks moves, and having an OK speed tier that lets it troll Gholdengo, so I could see it be an underrated pick in the meta later down the line.
4 weaknesses vs 6, more resistances too. Higher bulk, especially on special side, reminds me of ORAS Drill. Immune to Toxic, so can switch into the rising Pex for free (Surf does 0). Actually consistent vs no Focus Blast Gholdengo. Steel typing is rare too, while there are many common fight Mons like Breloom, Slither Wing, Pawmot, Tauros and Iron Hands. The Mons I would be using Tusk to check are easily checked by other Mons, therefore if I use Tusk, it's for the offensive potential, while Threads is a better supporter. There are more reasons, but the main one is Threads being more comfy for me to fit into teams than Tusk, which actually requires brain to build with.
I use to feel the same way, but then I started running a bunch of other steels like Gholdengo and Corv, leading to Treads became kinda hard to fit onto a team compared to Tusk for me. Its kinda hard to avoid stacking a major Fire weakness in this meta and even though Chi-Yu is gone, Cinderace is still quite strong. It does have a few solid checks, like Tauros-P, which I imagine Treads would work better alongside than Tusks. Being immune to poison and more notably, Toxic Spikes, are also pretty nice boons to have compared to Tusks, as is Volt Switch and Heavy Slam to troll Hat.
 
Curious why you like it more than Tusk? I think Tusk outclasses it pretty decently for the most part when it comes to typing, the only benefit for Treads is it's speed tier and access to Volt Switch.
4 weaknesses vs 6, more resistances too. Higher bulk, especially on special side, reminds me of ORAS Drill. Immune to Toxic, so can switch into the rising Pex for free (Surf does 0). Actually consistent vs no Focus Blast Gholdengo. Steel typing is rare too, while there are many common fight Mons like Breloom, Slither Wing, Pawmot, Tauros and Iron Hands. The Mons I would be using Tusk to check are easily checked by other Mons, therefore if I use Tusk, it's for the offensive potential, while Threads is a better supporter. There are more reasons, but the main one is Threads being more comfy for me to fit into teams than Tusk, which actually requires brain to build with.
One thing in Tusk's favor is that his typing is a LOT better suited to what's big in the Meta right now. Tusk easily wins in Physical Bulk, while it takes ~5% more from something neutral like Specs Dragapault Shadow Ball as a random neutral hit when compared to Treads (assuming the either 0 or max HP), meaning their typings are the majority contribution to their defensive profiles vs the other. Treads definitely has several resistances and immunities over Tusk, but in practice I feel like Tusk gets further in OU considering their neutral and weakness profiles, which matter a lot more on Pokemon with such great natural bulk.

First and foremost, Treads has to contend with a Weakness to Ground and to Fighting, which are definitely prevalent in OU right now (Eeveeto himself even noting several common Fighting types in OU on top of Tusk being high usage). Meanwhile while he has several good resistances, current OU feels very sparse for Flying offense (other than Roaring Moon, most seem to use it defensively rather than offensively) and the only offensive Fairy presences right now are Iron Valiant (who can still carry FB or Close Combat as common coverage), then Hatterene and Azumarill at more distant seconds (Hat for its more Magic Bounce Supporting role and Azu simply being much less common plus Water STAB). The Steel Typing also doesn't do it many favors against Garg, even if it's a winning match-up on Tera-Fairy vs Tusk, with the higher Salt Cure chip and that thing being a very common defensive fixture. And while its typing is good in and of itself, it can lead to weakness stacking/needing to forgo Pokemon like Gholdengo, Corviknight, and Ting-Lu (mainly Fighting), excluding Tera users who either gain or lose shared weaknesses like Tera-Fairy Garg/Dirge or Tera-Grass Volcarona.

In a Meta like Gen 8's with things like Tapu Lele and Koko (even without Quark Drive benefit), Dual Wingbeat D-Nite, Torn-T, and Clefable running around, Treads would be eating phenomenally, but the state of current SV OU doesn't give it enough to leverage its excellent typing against compared to its counterpart as a Bulky Ground Glue or Gholdengo as a versatile Part-Steel utility Pokemon, though no denying a fast Volt Switch on something like him has its merits. I definitely expect him to pick up if we start getting more good Fairies and such from Home/DLC like, some prior mentions, Enamorus, and Magearna if it stays OU, but with the roster we have right now, Tusk is incredibly stiff as competition.

Offensively, Tusk is also blessed with easy access to strong main STABs for almost any set it tries: Headlong vs EQ is a Power vs defensive consistency choice, and Body Press gives something like BU Tusk another consistent Damage option without compromising the defensive boosts either. Treads by comparison has the standard EQ, but otherwise has Iron Head for Steel STAB given its Signature Steel Roller doesn't work in any scenario where you'd want it to (i.e. ripping up Terrain on a QD mon or failing otherwise). Treads is faster, but this combined with his lower offensive stats than Tusk means he's a lot more dependent on his defensive profile resisting or blanking hits to get turns for his utility rather than threatening as many neutral targets into fleeing and letting him act, which as my previous paragraph discussed isn't something the current OU does favors for.

Iron Treads I wouldn't call slept on because we have a fairly good picture of what it does well, but the meta we have now compared to one potentially forthcoming simply doesn't favor the Wheel over the Mastodon.
 
if chien-pao gets banned, do you guys think we'd see much more usage of ting-lu? just asking because I've barely seen any discussion on it in a while, probably because chien-pao is such a domineering threat
i mean ting-lu is still top 5 in usage, its just filling the same role as lando-t atm. Rocks, electric immunity, bulky physical pivot with spdef investment. It doesnt necessarily warrant a ton of discussion since we know what it's doing, and isn't warping teambuilder by any means.
 
imo it is fairly embarrassing that some of the ou council members are like, on record, on here, saying that they took terastalization not being changed as essentially carte blanche to push even more things through quickbanning. not only is the tier becoming less democratic, but there are people leading the tier that straight up just punish democratic input. really gonna love playing against gholdengo hazard stack without gholdengo's worst matchup, chiyu, in the tier now. more quickban votes for garganacl than gholdengo btw
 
imo it is fairly embarrassing that some of the ou council members are like, on record, on here, saying that they took terastalization not being changed as essentially carte blanche to push even more things through quickbanning. not only is the tier becoming less democratic, but there are people leading the tier that straight up just punish democratic input. really gonna love playing against gholdengo hazard stack without gholdengo's worst matchup, chiyu, in the tier now. more quickban votes for garganacl than gholdengo btw
Average ou council W
 
imo it is fairly embarrassing that some of the ou council members are like, on record, on here, saying that they took terastalization not being changed as essentially carte blanche to push even more things through quickbanning. not only is the tier becoming less democratic, but there are people leading the tier that straight up just punish democratic input. really gonna love playing against gholdengo hazard stack without gholdengo's worst matchup, chiyu, in the tier now. more quickban votes for garganacl than gholdengo btw
Okay of all the things you could cite, you picked Chi-Yu, the Pokemon that I don't think a single soul in this thread advocated to keep before OR after the Terastal Suspect? Maybe with Cyclizar or Annihilape I'd see an argument to entertain, but voting or suspecting Chi-Yu would probably have just resulted in the biggest landslide "Ban" vote by players since Dracovish, if not since Shaymin-S.

And more to the point, Gholdengo being (in your judgement) unhealthy or stale is not reasoning to keep any of the 3 Quickbans around. The metagame dominated by Cheese Man being bad would not suddenly mean the "Click Fire and I win" Meta was healthy either. Perhaps both sucked and the simple answer is to look at the radar in the wake of bans that a lot of players didn't have much protest for.
 
imo it is fairly embarrassing that some of the ou council members are like, on record, on here, saying that they took terastalization not being changed as essentially carte blanche to push even more things through quickbanning. not only is the tier becoming less democratic, but there are people leading the tier that straight up just punish democratic input. really gonna love playing against gholdengo hazard stack without gholdengo's worst matchup, chiyu, in the tier now. more quickban votes for garganacl than gholdengo btw
Well it was obvious that chi yu was gonna get banned, ape was a very very big tera target and was prob broken and very very hard to break through and can sometimes win on the spot against teams esp with a certain tera, it def deserved to go. Cyclizar maybe but it fueled these very very HO teams, they said those reasons there and idt anybody here really disagrees with the decision to ban chi yu at least, and nobody really disagreed that ape and cyclizar deserved to go at all
 

AM

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imo it is fairly embarrassing that some of the ou council members are like, on record, on here, saying that they took terastalization not being changed as essentially carte blanche to push even more things through quickbanning. not only is the tier becoming less democratic, but there are people leading the tier that straight up just punish democratic input. really gonna love playing against gholdengo hazard stack without gholdengo's worst matchup, chiyu, in the tier now. more quickban votes for garganacl than gholdengo btw
48379ABD-5DC1-454D-A137-F2EBD4E4CAC8.jpeg
 

Melbelle

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imo it is fairly embarrassing that some of the ou council members are like, on record, on here, saying that they took terastalization not being changed as essentially carte blanche to push even more things through quickbanning. not only is the tier becoming less democratic, but there are people leading the tier that straight up just punish democratic input. really gonna love playing against gholdengo hazard stack without gholdengo's worst matchup, chiyu, in the tier now. more quickban votes for garganacl than gholdengo btw
Tera being legal means tera's biggest abusers get better, some of them pushed over the edge. Although all 3 of the quickbans that happened were pretty likely to happen down the line even without tera tbh.
 
I honestly don't see the appeal on Mons that have just one Multi Hit move. The same Baxcalibur with 4 hits has 100 power, but with 3 hits + Life Orb has 96,5, with 3 + Never Melt Ice has 90 , with 3 + Band has 112,5. Yes, 5 hits are a thing, but 3 (average of non dice) + boosting item it's still very close in terms of power. I prefer more variance but higher maximum power, it's not the same situation as Population Bomb without Wide Lens.
3 hits is not the average, both 2 hits and 3 hits have the same probability (35%) as do 4 and 5 (15%). Factoring in the weighted probabilities, LD actually slightly outdamages LO on average (103.75 vs 100.75). Also, 4-hit LD vs 3-hit LO is roughly the same (100 vs 97.5), as is 5-hit LD vs 4-LO (125 vs 130). So LO only deals significantly more damage than LD could 15% of the time when you get 5 hits, much worse odds than the 35% chance you have of doing significantly less damage with LO (65) if you get 2 hits.

This is also assuming Smogon’s stats are right, Serebii says 2-3 hits is 37.5% and 4-5 hits is 12.5% which gives LD even more of an advantage. Unless you’re 1) running CB, 2) need the power boost on other moves to get certain KOs, or 3) want to leave yourself the 15%/12.5% chance of that boosted 5-hit Hail Mary, LD seems like the better option.
 
imo it is fairly embarrassing that some of the ou council members are like, on record, on here, saying that they took terastalization not being changed as essentially carte blanche to push even more things through quickbanning. not only is the tier becoming less democratic, but there are people leading the tier that straight up just punish democratic input. really gonna love playing against gholdengo hazard stack without gholdengo's worst matchup, chiyu, in the tier now. more quickban votes for garganacl than gholdengo btw
"unfortunate" doesn't begin to describe the latest banwave, this game rewards gholdengo hazard spam and nothing else, i am beyond convinced at this point. after getting completely tooled by the council with people changing their votes on garganacl last minute and refusing to provide confirmation prior to the vote as to what would get banned, losing chi-yu this way somehow felt even worse than i had thought possible. my argument was superior, my opinion was superior, and i lost chi-yu, so i don't see a reason to continue engaging in an activity where what is within my control is overwhelmingly outweighed by what is in control of the council. i am done with competitive pokemon, and you won't get a fond farewell. this community is infected to its roots with a degenerative disease that grows stronger over time but stops short of killing its host. tiering actions used to have a democratic spirit at their heart, this has been transplanted and replaced with an artificial organ that feeds on tyranny and unilateral action from insecure little dictators that rule the tier with an iron fist and tear ordinary users to shreds over attempts at democratic input. the environment we fostered has trapped us all like this in a vicious cycle, and escaping it requires acceptance of the harshest reality we all scramble to explain away, that none of the countless straining efforts to balance the tier we put ourselves through here will ever amount to one single shining glimmer of competitiveness. one last thing before i leave you all to react with disdain, ridicule, and self-righteous fervor, before you do everything in your power to minimize my defogs and rapid spins, box them up and shove them to some sticky-webbed corner of your memory, and hope they disappear forever as a stain on your finite time ground to dust. from this moment on, none of your hazards matter to me. the foulest toxic spikes you hurl with intent to poison will calmly settle at the earth before my boots-clad feet, and the spikes you stack will bring all the pain of a warm summer breeze. you are less than anything you can conceive, while i carry on, brimming with hp distilled from not taking hazard damage.
 
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"unfortunate" doesn't begin to describe the latest banwave, this game rewards gholdengo hazard spam and nothing else, i am beyond convinced at this point. after getting completely tooled by the council with people changing their votes on garganacl last minute and refusing to provide confirmation prior to the vote as to what would get banned, losing chi-yu this way somehow felt even worse than i had thought possible. my argument was superior, my opinion was superior, and i lost chi-yu, so i don't see a reason to continue engaging in an activity where what is within my control is overwhelmingly outweighed by what is in control of the council. i am done with competitive pokemon, and you won't get a fond farewell. this community is infected to its roots with a degenerative disease that grows stronger over time but stops short of killing its host. tiering actions used to have a democratic spirit at their heart, this has been transplanted and replaced with an artificial organ that feeds on vitriol and mockery from insecure little boys that heckle by the sidelines and tear each other to shreds over scraps of attention. the environment we fostered has trapped us all like this in a vicious cycle, and escaping it requires acceptance of the harshest reality we all scramble to explain away, that none of the countless straining efforts to balance the tier we put ourselves through here will ever amount to one single shining glimmer of competitiveness. one last thing before i leave you all to react with disdain, ridicule, and self-righteous fervor, before you do everything in your power to minimize my words and thoughts, box them up and shove them to some sticky-webbed corner of your memory, and hope they disappear forever as a stain on your finite time ground to dust. from this moment on, nothing you say matters to me. the foulest insults you hurl with intent to wound will calmly settle at the earth before my feet, and the hazards you stack will bring all the pain of a warm summer breeze. you are less than anything you can conceive, while i carry on, brimming with joy distilled from detachment.
Lavos?
 
imo it is fairly embarrassing that some of the ou council members are like, on record, on here, saying that they took terastalization not being changed as essentially carte blanche to push even more things through quickbanning. not only is the tier becoming less democratic, but there are people leading the tier that straight up just punish democratic input. really gonna love playing against gholdengo hazard stack without gholdengo's worst matchup, chiyu, in the tier now. more quickban votes for garganacl than gholdengo btw
At times, I read the Pokémon showdown chat saying “Chien is OP ban it”, “garg is OP ban it”, “Gholdengo is OP ban it.” “Oh if we ban Chien then gholdengo has no counters.” “Ban all three of those Pokémon.”Then why are we giving bad decisions upon others to ban Chien knowing that gholdengo will probably go shortly thereafter. Less than a week and people complain about a Pokémon that is overbearing. People complained about gholdengo first week in then stopped because it’s a fair pokemon on its own. Let the meta settle for a while and think outside of the box if Chien really destroys a team because people are too busy building cookie cutter teams. I think I am just upset because the people are very influential and when people don’t get their way, they cry to the council to ban it. If the council sees it as a problem, then it’s their decision to make.
 

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imo it is fairly embarrassing that some of the ou council members are like, on record, on here, saying that they took terastalization not being changed as essentially carte blanche to push even more things through quickbanning. not only is the tier becoming less democratic, but there are people leading the tier that straight up just punish democratic input. really gonna love playing against gholdengo hazard stack without gholdengo's worst matchup, chiyu, in the tier now. more quickban votes for garganacl than gholdengo btw
This is ridiculous. We committed to having a radar and quickbans before the suspect and then again during it, well before we knew any results. Before you go around claiming volunteers are acting in bad faith, know what you’re talking about or simply don’t talk about it altogether if you don’t. Asking questions is encouraged and I would love to actually discuss people and even learn new perspectives rather than just being attacked or accused of trying to circumvent democracy.
 
In all honesty, the tier is progressively getting more enjoyable to play. Say what you will about Tera ban or the quick bans but team building feels much less restrictive and set variety feels a little more fluid than the beginning of the generation. Tier leaders don't deserve the hate they get, although I know its just a vocal minority that speak out.

On to a different topic, Torkoal feels so good right now, even after the Chi Yu ban. A lot of strong mons benefit from Proto and between Yawn SR Spin and fire move, it has role compression and gives a ton of team support. Roaring Moon and Great Tusk slot in nicely and are top mons in the meta, and Proto Atk Scarf Great Tusk is such a threat to most teams. I already see a good bit of Torkoal but honestly I expect to see more. Torkoal Hatterene Brute Bonnett TR team when??? :quagchamppogsire:
 
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