Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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To be clear: This is irrelevant to if Garg is worth banning or not. The following can be true and you can still think it's worth banning and that's fine.

Would Covert Cloak really be used without Garganacl? No
Does Covert Cloak have worthwhile benefits outside of Garganacl? Yes
Is using an item to mostly invalidate a high tier pokemon on the other team a high opportunity cost? No

Fair criticisms to levy would be about the number of pokemon where covert cloak is good, but it's still definitely more than just gholdengo and toxapex. Also, if it weren't for the currently most broken and overlycentralizing pokemon Gholdengo, it would be applicable on a lot more.
 
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>Covert Cloak deniers when HOME gets updated and Sneasler sleep haxes their Toxapex.
The covert Cloak argument is that it’s no really viable now, not that it won’t be viable in the future. Once home comes out and we get a lot of viable Pokémon that rely on high percentage hax rolls. Like heatran, sneasler, shaymin sky (who I want to see in OU) volcanion, jirachi etc it becomes a more viable item, we currently just don’t have niche of Pokémon in the game right now
 
Many people’s problems with Covert Cloak is that they don’t notice all the times Covert Cloak comes in clutch. If item activated like psychic terrain (bringing up a message “Covert Cloak protected Gholdengo from being frozen!”) or something, it would be infinitely more appreciated. The lessened perceived value comes from the fact that you don’t take into account how valuable it is to not be able to get icicle crash flinched, have your SpDef dropped, or get frozen/burnt/paralyzed. Salt cure is a guaranteed second effect, so people notice it then, but being able to switch in without fear of hax is undeniably a valuable item, with or without Garg in the tier. Covert Cloak won’t win you games the way a choice scarf will, but it will prevent you from losing them without you even realizing it. It’s not busted, but it’s definitely an item with value.
 
Many people’s problems with Covert Cloak is that they don’t notice all the times Covert Cloak comes in clutch. If item activated like psychic terrain (bringing up a message “Covert Cloak protected Gholdengo from being frozen!”) or something, it would be infinitely more appreciated.
could be deja vu but did you not just say something identical to this yesterday?

to keep this from being a one liner; besides chien/garg/ghold, are there any other mons that warrant a suspect to you guys that haven't been on one previously? if not, are there any mons that would spike in usage if those three were banned?
 
To have a decline it first has to be relevant, lol. Spiritomb is a nice new setter, but we got very few new abussers (Skeledirge and Iron Hands are the only ones that come to my mind).
I've seen quite a few TR teams on Showdown and SV, hell I reached Master Ball tier with TR not too long ago. I think it'll expand its niche in the meta soon enough.
 
I've seen quite a few TR teams on Showdown and SV, hell I reached Master Ball tier with TR not too long ago. I think it'll expand its niche in the meta soon enough.
To be clear, this forum is for discussion of 6v6 singles with Smogon rules. VGC is a different thing entirely, and can be discussed here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/video-game-championships.513/

As for when Trick Room will fall off in VGC... well, maybe when Koraidon and Miraidon become legal lol
 
I’ve been having fun with Trick Room personally. It’s fairly brain dead, honestly, if you build your team in mind to circumvent the challenges of bulky slow mons like Dondozo (and the other Unaware mons) and Garganacl.

For breaking purposes I’ve been utilizing a core of Specs Eruption Torkoal with 3 attack Life Orb Brute Bonnete, supplemented by any of Kingsgambit, Great Tusk, Iron Hands or Haxorus.

Two attacks Sash Healing Wish Hat is a brain dead lead that denies hazards and gets your first breaker in for free.

Specs Eruption Torkoal takes heads unless the opponent has a Fire immunity, and even then it can utilitize Tera Ground Earth Power for the armor boys.

Protosynth gives BB some extra attacking oomph to hit hard in general, and BB’s STABs in Seed Bomb and Crunch alone brutalize all of the thickest mons in the meta, including Dondozo, Garg, Ghoul, Skeleridge, and the physically frail Blissey and Clod. Factor in Spore to get extra TR turns (which is very nice considering those STABs hit the two status absorbers of the tier). For your last move, chose what else you want to hit SE, Fire for Corviknight or Fairy for Dragonite.

For a mid game setter, Red Card Mimikyu is my go to, as it messes up the opponent’s momentum by forcing a set up sweeper or Sub user out, and gets a guaranteed TR off before killing itself with Curse for momentum.

It’s pretty fun/hilarious. Rain teams have been giving my builds trouble though, which is why I’m still playing around with that third breaker and third setter. Klefki is fun as it walls Chien Pao and can murder itself with Steel Beam. Spiritomb has Memento and Curse and can hit through Subs. Slowking is probably the best option for countering rain as it provides a hefty water resist, and Chilly Reception along with Torkoal ensures the opponent will struggle to keep their rain up.
 
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To be clear, this forum is for discussion of 6v6 singles with Smogon rules. VGC is a different thing entirely, and can be discussed here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/video-game-championships.513/

As for when Trick Room will fall off in VGC... well, maybe when Koraidon and Miraidon become legal lol
I still think
I’ve been having fun with Trick Room personally. It’s fairly brain dead, honestly, if you build your team in mind to circumvent the challenges of bulky slow mons like Dondozo (and the other Unaware mons) and Garganacl.

For breaking purposes I’ve been utilizing a core of Specs Eruption Torkoal with 3 attack Life Orb Brute Bonnete, supplemented by any of Kingsgambit, Great Tusk, Iron Hands or Haxorus.

Two attacks Sash Healing Wish Hat is a brain dead lead that denies hazards and gets your first breaker in for free.

Specs Eruption Torkoal takes heads unless the opponent has a Fire immunity, and even then it can utilitize Tera Ground Earth Power for the armor boys.

Protosynth gives BB some extra oomph to hit hard in general, and BB’s STABs in Seed Bomb and Crunch alone brutalize all of of the thickest mons in the meta, including Dondozo, Garg, Ghoul, Skeleridge, and the physically frail Blissey and Clod. Factor in Spore to get extra TR turns (which is very nice considering those STABs hit the two status absorbers of the tier). For your last move, chose what else you want to hit SE, Fire for Corviknight or Fairy for Dragonite.

It’s prettt fun/hilarious. Rain teams have been giving my builds trouble though, which is why I’m still playing around with that third breaker.
A great counter to rain teams could be this Eelektross build

Eelektross @ Life Orb (or muscle band)
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
-Close Combat
-Wild Charge
-Dragon Claw
-Liquidation

This things whole purpose is to dish out huge damage and not much else. It does a ton of damage to some of the more bulky threats such as Garganacl, who was a main wall I had in mind when making this specific build.

252+ Atk Life Orb Eelektross Close Combat vs 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl 273-322 (67.5-79.7%) guaranteed 2HKO after leftovers.
This build also has some solid versatility and puts in work on TR teams.
 
Relatively to the Covert Cloak Gholedngo set being a dedicated set, I think we reach an agreement, we both agree that the item has more purposes on Gholdengo than being immune to Salt Cure, despite that being its main purpose, the same can not be said, however, about other Covert Cloak Pokemon like Corviknight or Skeledirge as you say.

First of all, a big part of Corviknight's relevance actually has to do with absorbing Knock off and u-turning out to achieve momentum. If u are running a covert cloak set with iron defense, that cant achieve momentum (and still loses to the rare Tera ghost curse set), you will be playing a 5vs6 match-up most games. What is the point of running Corv just for Garg when u cant Switch into Tusk, Meowscarada or Iron Treads? Its just a dedicated set that is deadweight in most match-ups.

Skeledirge is no difference. You said that Garg needs a lot of team support to beat Covert loak Skeledirge but thats just not true at all. If you are switching Skeledirge into Garga and ur opponent has a default Garga set, it gets up rocks on Skeledirge. In case you try to go to tusk, Corv or any other Spiner to remove hazards, Garga just Teras and beats them 1v1 Forcing Rocks to stay up. With this, Garga just has to spend 1 salt cure pp every time Skeledirge comes in to absorb salt cure, making it take damage from stealth rock and switching out the next turn.
Skeledirge runs out of slack off PP way faster than Garganacl runs out of salt cure.
Even in a scenario where u manage to trade hazards Garganacl simply has more longevity than Covert Cloak Skeledirge due to leftovers recovery and not being weak to Stealth Rocks unlike dirge. Even if you tera Dirge to take less damage from Stealth Rock, Earthquake and Salt Cure u just lose because 8 Slack off PP is not enough and because Garganacl may simply bait you in and not actually click salt cure long term to force you to take Stealth Rocks damage.
Skeledirge beats garg with ease using EP. After +2, Garg is forced to switch, be basically dead, waste a turn to recover allowing you to +3 guaranteeing that KO and making switching risky or what not. Curse is wasted on Unaware and allows set up, and even if Garg recovers Dirge can continue to TS to boost damage until it's guaranteed death. Rock Salt on cloak on slightly higher def investment takes approximately ~20%. Keep in mind this is with 0 SPATK investment. If you switch Dirge on Garg you shouldn't be switching to a spinner instantly. It can wait, priority targets matter more than just instantly switching. KO Garg or force it out then go for RS. Like if everyone goes for EH removal immediately this sets up GT/etc. to be Iron Valiant snacks MB goes BRRRR.

If it's lead (SR) Garg, just switch in Dirge before rocks hit the field or if it's not lead when it's switched in just in case. Even then Garg has the same weaknesses (if not worse) than Dondozo has. Hilariously, Dozo and Garg share quite a few weaknesses outside a few specific teras.

Just to make a case in point:

Fairy Tera loses to TS from Dirge. Flying Tera loses to TS from Dirge. Ghost Tera loses to TS from Dirge. Poison/etc. lose to TS from Dirge. Only water, default, dragon and fire don't lose to TS. Those specific types lose to EP.

If you don't have something to beat water how does your team manage Dondozo? If you don't have anything to answer dragon how does your team answer Dragonite (Now I'm starting to see why so many people had problems with DNite), and default and fire share the same weakness, how does your team handle Dirge in that case. EP handles water, dragon, fire and default btw. Shadow Ball is not actually required in OU for the most part on Dirge. Gholdengo gets devoured by TS, and EP is great mirror match Dirge if you tera outside of Ghost. Dragapult out speeds you anyway and EP is neutral and allows you to thrash Pex.* Note I've never seen dragon/fire/poison/bug/ice/normal/etc. Garg.

In regards to switching, Garg often stays in, and by the time it should switch you're already rolling a +2 dirge. Which means most switch ins aren't going to want to risk it even on resist or you can mind game predict the switch and hit them with SB/EP. At most by +2 you should have only used one slack off by then. Let's say you +2 EP Garg, even if it survives and switches out it's going to be below 40% quite often which makes it fodder for quite a few special attackers, Great Tusk (regardless of Tera HR/CC/Knockoff is coming to do around ~45% depending and that's without CB) and what not and if you have hazards up it's going to be ~30% health at best. If it's switched out it isn't RS your team, so it can't be this impossible fortress and guerilla tactic mon at the same time, it's either one or the other.

In regards to Dirge though:

So Garg Tera doesn't stop dirge, trying to stall Dirge doesn't stop dirge, RS on cloak doesn't stop dirge (and even without cloak it takes max ~30% a turn RS+RS extended damage) *Note it only takes ~30% on turns where Garg doesn't ID/Recover.*This assumes it isn't ATK investment Garg which takes even more damage. which should only take around 2~3 SO if running anything but cloak. assuming it doesn't switch out. If it does their switch is taking a +2 TS or EP depending and isn't going to be too happy. Even if you go with team support argument, Dirge can easily be supported as well and be brought back out later to finish up it's delicate but rocky meal.
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Pre-Contributor
I still think

A great counter to rain teams could be this Eelektross build

Eelektross @ Life Orb (or muscle band)
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
-Close Combat
-Wild Charge
-Dragon Claw
-Liquidation

This things whole purpose is to dish out huge damage and not much else. It does a ton of damage to some of the more bulky threats such as Garganacl, who was a main wall I had in mind when making this specific build.

252+ Atk Life Orb Eelektross Close Combat vs 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl 273-322 (67.5-79.7%) guaranteed 2HKO after leftovers.
This build also has some solid versatility and puts in work on TR teams.
I personally don't see why you would ever use this over Iron Hands, It has a much stronger attack stat, much better bulk, Ice Punch giving it bolt/beam coverage as well as SD.
 
I personally don't see why you would ever use this over Iron Hands, It has a much stronger attack stat, much better bulk, Ice Punch giving it bolt/beam coverage as well as SD.
Iron Hands is leagues better but I needed a stand in for him cuz he's not legal in VGC. which is what the Eelektross build was used for
 
I personally don't see why you would ever use this over Iron Hands, It has a much stronger attack stat, much better bulk, Ice Punch giving it bolt/beam coverage as well as SD.
well, eelektross does have no weaknesses so it has that going for it at least. i can't really see it working on… really any ou team, but it sure does have no weaknesses
Iron Hands is leagues better but I needed a stand in for him cuz he's not legal in VGC. which is what the Eelektross build was used for
i still don't think using vgc as a basis for what can fly in ou is a good idea. remember the pachirisu
 
Many people’s problems with Covert Cloak is that they don’t notice all the times Covert Cloak comes in clutch. If item activated like psychic terrain (bringing up a message “Covert Cloak protected Gholdengo from being frozen!”) or something, it would be infinitely more appreciated. The lessened perceived value comes from the fact that you don’t take into account how valuable it is to not be able to get icicle crash flinched, have your SpDef dropped, or get frozen/burnt/paralyzed. Salt cure is a guaranteed second effect, so people notice it then, but being able to switch in without fear of hax is undeniably a valuable item, with or without Garg in the tier. Covert Cloak won’t win you games the way a choice scarf will, but it will prevent you from losing them without you even realizing it. It’s not busted, but it’s definitely an item with value.
nah, i’ve seen multiple people express similar thoughts before, and i have to say: it’s nonsense. what you want from a (good) item is a consistent & reliable boon - not just the chance at benefitting from the item. this is because, whenever an item such as covert cloak isn’t procd, you essentially have no item whatsoever. thus, there is a huge opportunity cost in simply running cloak as is.

compare this with the actual good items such as leftovers, boots, etc., and this difference is v much apparent. they are all reliable & no fuss - you know exactly what you are getting, you know it will be valuable, you know that it will ALWAYS give something, and when/how.

covert cloak is a genuinely terrible item & nobody would ever use it were it not for garg. to assert otherwise is to huff weapons-grade copium. like seriously, should garg go, nobody, and i mean NOBODY will ever use that item again.
 
Garganacl sympathizers: waiting for heatran, clefable and co to join OU

Garganacl’s ability to disrupt teams is just that, it disrupts teams. It’s a little confusing why it’s so expected that if a dragonite is too strong vs your team, you redesign your entire team.

Meanwhile if a garganacl, which requires much more turns, a lot more switching cycles and usually a predictable Tera, is disrupting your team too much, it’s suddenly too good for OU.

understandably the fact that the best garganacl switch in is actually an S tier Pokémon that some would argue is too good for OU itself, carrying an otherwise not so exciting item in a pre heatran meta (I wonder if covert cloak blocks magma storms secondary effect)

saying gholdengo is too good for OU actually kinda makes sense, even tho it’s more manageable. It’s to do with the impact gholdengo has on designing entire teams with the limited ways that Defog and rapid spin users can beat it.

a big part of great tusks viability is that it can break past gholdengo to spin.

a big part of corviknights weakness is the poor matchup against gholdengo,

and so forth and so forth..
 
nah, i’ve seen multiple people express similar thoughts before, and i have to say: it’s nonsense. what you want from a (good) item is a consistent & reliable boon - not just the chance at benefitting from the item. this is because, whenever an item such as covert cloak isn’t procd, you essentially have no item whatsoever. thus, there is a huge opportunity cost in simply running cloak as is.

compare this with the actual good items such as leftovers, boots, etc., and this difference is v much apparent. they are all reliable & no fuss - you know exactly what you are getting, you know it will be valuable, you know that it will ALWAYS give something, and when/how.

covert cloak is a genuinely terrible item & nobody would ever use it were it not for garg. to assert otherwise is to huff weapons-grade copium. like seriously, should garg go, nobody, and i mean NOBODY will ever use that item again.
I normally would have a headache from reading something as inane as this but I'm wearing a Covert Cloak so I get no side effects. #CovertCloak2023
 
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