BH Balanced Hackmons

So here are my personal thoughts/opinions on the main discussion topics:

Gorilla Tactics
I think that Gorilla Tactics, despite being one of the strongest boosting abilities and being banned in every other BH metagame, is really only questionable when on Zacian-C. No other user of GT possesses the same combination of aspects that makes GT Zac-C what it is. Without extremely powerful, low drawback moves like Bolt Beak, Fishious Rend, and Sunsteel Strike, GT users do often struggle to break past the extremely prevalent Fur Coat. Note that Fur Coat is not mandatory because of GT, because even without it, there are still powerful alternatives like Libero, Sword of Ruin, and Orichalcum Pulse that force the need for Fur Coat users.

Palkia-Origin
Palkia-O is certainly a dangerous wallbreaker/sweeper, with a high speed tier, damage output, and fantastic STAB coverage. I don't really think its broken though. Yes it boasts enough power to brute force through even specially defensive behemoths like Dialga-O and Goodra-H, and yes its very difficult to offensively answer due to QD SpD boosts, Strength Sap, and its solid defensive typing, but unlike a lot of broken stuff in the past (such as PDon, MRay, Caly-S, GDZ), Palkia-O has its hard counters that are viable enough even when not matched up against it. It also has very little possibilities of bypassing these counters, relying on large amounts of chip damage, potential paralysis, and the appropriate Tera type.

Zacian-Crowned
Zacian-C probably has (and should have) 100% usage rate on competitive teams. Its undeniably splashable, being able to be customized to perform numerous roles on any team while providing the best speed control possible. None of its sets are actually problematic though, with the exception of the aforementioned GT. The ultimate problem of GT Zac-C is a combination of GT, Zac-C, Magical Torque, a lack of bulky enough checks, and Tera. Magical Torque's notorious 30% confusion rate practically mandates Covert Cloak to be a more consistent answer, making it actually difficult to consistently answer it.

The overall state of the meta
I personally don't really find BH9 that enjoyable to build or play. There are a ton of super powerful offensive powerhouses supported by very good offensive tools that makes it very difficult to account for when the pool of defensive mons is quite lacklustre in comparison. It feels challenging to try to cover all the common threats at once (Zac-C, Ghostceus, Mirai, Palk-O, Etern, + others). Imposter is still fantastic for scouting and making progress against defensive mons while exploiting weakened improofs, but all meta offensive mons have extremely viable ways to bypass it. However, I don't really think that it is any one thing that is causing all of this, but instead a combination of all these offensive threats and their tools.
But, there is one thing in this metagame that is utilized effectively by all of them, and is what I believe to be pushing them over the edge, and it is the main topic of discussion for this post, which of course is going to be

Terastallization

Terastallization is, in my opinion, the most problematic element of the metagame right now, and the element that I would most want to see suspected and banned. Tera pushes already powerful offensive mons over the edge, prevents revenge-killing and forces guessing games, while providing very little utility for defensive mons.
Replays listed are all from OM Majors which is the most recent tournament with BH. While it isn't a BH tournament and there are a lot of non BH mains, the teams are all generally sound and viable.

Offensive use
The most direct benefit of Tera, boosting attacks by at least 33% more damage. This threat of a boost forces the defending side to always play with the post-Tera calcs in mind and keep their defensive walls at high enough health (until Tera is used). As an example, Fur Coat +Def Arceus formes need to be kept at near full health against GT Zac-C. This means that the attacker does not lose momentum because the defender is forced to heal, lest they want to get 2HKOed the next time they try to switch in. Of course, the damage boost is also more significant for coverage types, which empowers most super effective coverage to break past walls. Some examples of calcs include:
252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Tera Fairy Zacian-Crowned Magical Torque vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus-Ghost: 174-206 (39.1 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
2HKOs with minor chip, confusion, or paralysis
252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Moltres in Sun: 189-223 (49.2 - 58%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
2HKOs because you outspeed after V-create drop
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Tera Electric Miraidon Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga-Origin in Electric Terrain: 173-204 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
2HKOs with minor chip
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Tera Dragon Miraidon Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Dialga-Origin: 213-251 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Straight up 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Lustrous Globe Beads of Ruin Tera Dragon Palkia-Origin Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga-Origin: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Unboosted 2HKOs Scales Dialga-O
252 SpA Spooky Plate Tera Ghost Arceus-Ghost Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 256-302 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
2HKOs one of the more common Pranksters
This power boost is what breaks a lot of these otherwise more or less checkable threats. Without it these listed calcs are far weaker and much easier to deal with.

Offensive defensive use

Title might be a bit a confusing, but its referring to a defensive use for offensive mons. This is when offensive mons use Tera to change types and survive hits they had no business taking. An important thing to note here is that this very often overlaps with direct offensive use, as removing one of the original STAB types removes some notable associated weaknesses.
While this isn't as strong as the first use case, this use can be argued as uncompetitive. Revenge-killing becomes extremely inconsistent and risky just with Tera existing. Imposter also is very inconsistent at checking offensive threats, as they can Tera into favourable typings. Some notable examples of useful type changes include: Fairy Zacian-C to remove both weaknesses, Fire Zacian-C to resist Fire while preserving Fairy resistance, both STAB Miraidon to remove either Fairy or Ground weakness, Water Palkia-O to remove both weaknesses, Fairy Miraidon/Palkia-O/Eternatus to absorb Dragon attacks while removing other weaknesses. Here is a sample scenario involving this:

You get a slow U-turn against a Choice Specs Miraidon, in a world without Tera, you simply bring in your offensive Zacian-C and threaten a revenge-kill with either Magical Torque or Ground coverage. However, if you click Magical Torque and Miraidon Teras Electric, or if you clicked Ground move and Miraidon Teras Dragon, you just lost your Zacian-C. Thus, you shouldn't actually bring in your Zacian-C in this case, even when it is a free switch. Note that while knowing Tera-type can help with this specific scenario, it won't always help, such as if the opposing mon is Palkia-O with Water Tera instead.
This is also not an uncommon situation either, and can happen with many different defending breakers. What this means is that offensive counterplay is unreliable, and every team needs to have super sturdy walls to all offensive threats. As previously mentioned, it is difficult to address all threats, and without offensive counterplay as an option, poor matchups are far more difficult to play. In previous BH metas, this isn't as notable of an issue, as an example we can use MMY in NatDex who can break almost every check with the right coverage moves. However, you can at least play around this using your faster speed control options like Zacian-C or Deoxys-A while temporarily checking it with Imposter.

I'm also going to link this post because it does a great job of going into more detail with this problem.

Defensive use

This use case is simply changing your defensive mon type to check an otherwise uncheckable threat. This is also generally the weakest use case. A primary problem is that defensively Tera always results in a monotype, and monotypes aren't very good at checking meta threats. A second problem is that defensive mons are much less threatening when given a free turn. While that Miraidon Tera let it live a hit and OHKO with Rising Voltage, the best a defensive mon can typically do is fire off a Nuzzle or Knock Off, which, while can be devastatingly crippling, is less game impacting than straight up or nearly deleting a mon. Your opponent can still play around the defensive Tera. A third problem is that defensive Tera loses the original type, which means it no longer checks the threats it was originally meant to check. This is a huge issue when a lot of offensive cores are meant to overload one defensive mon.

Here's examples to all 3 of these problems:
You have a FC Fireceus with Tera Flying. You can Tera it against a Zacian-C to take the Headlong Rush, but you don't actually OHKO back. Then the next time Zacian-C is in you lost your best Magical Torque absorber.
Alternatively you have the same FC Fireceus and you Tera it against an Ursaluna to take the Headlong Rush, but now the Zacian-C at the back has no Fairy-resist to deal with anymore.
For a different example, consider if you Tera Fairy your Dialga-O to live a Dragon Energy from Palkia-O and retaliate with a Draco Meteor that knocks it out. However, now that Miraidon or Eternatus no longer is checked by it and runs through your team.

As much as I am criticizing this use of Tera, it still can cause the exact same issues as the above use by forcing predictions.
I actually only found two good uses, which says something (others are double digits)
Turn 11 Dondozo Tera Fairy to check Hoopa-U
Turn 30 Enamorus Tera Fire to wall Grassceus

Comparison with Dynamax

I don't think this is a super strong argument but I still want to discuss this because there are a lot of similarities and the general consensus is that DMax is completely broken while for Tera its more leaning towards balanced.

Offensively the two mechanics aren't super similar. Ignoring the various mechanics that DMax can bypass and only considering the damage output. Tera provides consistent damage boosts, DMax provides damage boosts on weaker moves (worse in BH because BH has all the strongest moves); Tera doesn't provide Max effects, but DMax removes the base move effect, and in BH the Max effects aren't very useful offensively anyways considering weather and terrains are usually used as abilities, while stat boost types are rather subpar and stat boosts is easier to deal with.

The actual similarities come in the defensive use. The latter two listed uses of Tera are quite similar to one of the most uncompetitive aspects of DMax: using the extra effective bulk granted by the mechanic to survive hits and then harshly retaliate. When a mon Teras and changes a type matchup of an incoming move, it is effectively given at least 2x the bulk, the same that DMax gives. Tera also allows the use of status and utility moves while DMax cannot, such as getting a crucial Strength Sap off or firing off a Nuzzle/Knock Off.

I'm not going to go into too much detail because I made a long post in OM Discord about this, people who are in the discord and are interested can use this link. I also linked this post on DMax by stresh in there but this is for those people not in discord. I think a lot of the examples listed in that post are applicable to Tera and the post also does a great job highlighting the issues these predictions cause.

Counterpoints

Some of the common points for Tera to stay I've seen are "Tera is a fun and interesting addition to the tier", "Tera encourages creative teambuilding", "Tera is flexible and encourages strategy and adds dynamics". I'll briefly address these (no I'm not going to address "but Tera is the generational mechanic you can't ban it").

"Tera is a fun and interesting addition to the tier"
I don't know about interesting, but I do know that at least for me, I don't find making these predictions or getting surprised by a Tera very fun. It feels very out of my control and unfun.
"Tera encourages creative teambuilding"
While I do think that setting Tera types to try to solve some problems with the team is interesting, I've mentioned before in this post that the sheer power that a potential Tera can give is a huge restriction on teambuilding. You have to bring the most sturdy walls to the threats instead of having some softer checks. Some of the most restrictive teambuilding elements we have right now like Zacian-C (mandating basically double FC) and Palkia-O (mandating some specific checks) are due to Tera.
"Tera is flexible and encourages strategy and adds dynamics"
See first point as well as the points on how defensive Tera isn't very good. Flexible is true for defensive Tera but it has to be actually effective while offensive Tera doesn't come across as "flexible" to me. I also don't think playing around with potential Tera damage in mind or predictions is encouraging strategy or very dynamic to play.

Conclusion

I think that Tera in BH is uncompetitive and it has a negative impact by restricting teambuilding and playing, breaking too many otherwise balanced elements of the meta. The current BH meta most likely needs a change but for me the other questionable elements are more or less balanced, while removing Tera solves most of these problems at once and frees up tiering decisions in the future instead of questioning every dubious element as "is it Tera that is breaking this". I would like to see a suspect on Tera and if I do get reqs I will be voting ban.
Tera has a lot of potential discussion on it and I think I probably missed a bunch here as well, so I strongly encourage you to share your ideas and thoughts, whether its through here on forums or in the BH channel.
 

Tea Guzzler

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hello it's me again. i would like to have a discussion on why the horse needs to go.

:sv/palkia-origin:
Palkia-Origin @ Lustrous Globe
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Water / Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Dragon Energy
- Steam Eruption / Water Spout
- Strength Sap

it's no secret that i think this mon is incredibly broken. water/dragon is already a broken offensive typing (seriously there is no reason why palkia shouldn't have been at least A- last gen), and the last thing it needed this gen was an unknockable boosting item and the removal of the 2 viable double-resists (tapu fini and ferrothorn). i could go into great depth on why this thing's sheer damage alone just breaks the tier open, but to put it into one sentence, if you don't ultra-hard counter this thing then your special wall will be dying after minor chip. here's some examples:

+1 252+ SpA Lustrous Globe Beads of Ruin Palkia-Origin Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga-Origin: 304-358 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed OHKO if vest is knocked / with tera dragon)
252+ SpA Lustrous Globe Beads of Ruin Palkia-Origin Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Dialga-Origin: 152-179 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (2HKOes after spikes and negligible chip)
+1 252+ SpA Lustrous Globe Beads of Ruin Palkia-Origin Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 333-393 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this is just fucking dumb, why does this 2HKO a CHANSEY)
+1 252+ SpA Lustrous Globe Beads of Ruin Palkia-Origin Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 501-589 (112.8 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Lustrous Globe Beads of Ruin Palkia-Origin Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Arceus-Fairy on a critical hit: 168-198 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
it OHKOes basically the entire tier at +1 outside of these

as you can see, tera exacerbates the issue pretty hard. tera is the thing that lets a special attacker OHKO a regenvester at +1, and is the thing that nullifies any revenge killing potential (suddenly dropping dragon to live pixispeed and sap back to full), and you don't even know which type you're going up against until the penny drops and your counterplay method has probably already failed. so, it has undeniable offensive potential: everyone agrees on this.

but unlike a lot of broken stuff in the past (such as PDon, MRay, Caly-S, GDZ), Palkia-O has its hard counters that are viable enough even when not matched up against it. It also has very little possibilities of bypassing these counters, relying on large amounts of chip damage, potential paralysis, and the appropriate Tera type.
this is the only argument i see that somewhat justifies palkia-o being balanced. this is also the part i simply don't understand - all of the hardest counters to palkia have SEVERE issues, all of which are opportunity cost and some of which are that and more:

:ss/chansey:
Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Morning Sun
- Super Fang
- Parting Shot / Spite / Ceaseless Edge / Filler

i just want to point out how funny it is that a special attacker which needs scales chansey to be walled (without full immunity) is free. running scales chansey means you're basically never dying to direct damage from palkia, or really any dedicated special attacker - miraidon, most arc-ghost, eternatus, etc. the issue here, as you might expect, is that you're using a scales chansey - you are inherently passive, vulnerable to mixed attackers (triple arrows ghostceus / any enamorus beat this), a severe momentum sink that hates every status move, still vulnerable to stuff like final gambit etern with hazard support, and can't run eviolite imposter due to species clause. this is a massive list of huge tradeoffs that make this in 9/10 cases simply not viable as an option.

:ss/chansey:
Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Morning Sun
- Glare
- Parting Shot

similarly to the above, ultra-passive momentum sink that takes away your chansey slot (on top of doing a particularly bad job as a prankster given physical attackers are now a common consideration) in return for a somewhat safe matchup into most special attackers (still not really - you can easily run out of recovers or just lose to crits). probably less legit than the above which is somehow a really low bar to limbo under, but alas.

:ss/zacian-crowned:
Zacian-Crowned @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse / Desolate Land
Tera Type: Fairy / Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Magical Torque
- V-create
- Tidy Up / Toxic / Knock Off / Filler
- Synthesis

sun dog is another check which has a massive opportunity cost - however, instead of losing a chansey slot (in a meta where many teams don't need imposter), you're losing a zacian slot (which is the single best and most used mon in the meta) to run a comparatively mediocre set that excels at nothing. desland grants complete palkia immunity but doesn't provide opulse's damage boost, essentially meaning you're both playing almost 5-5 but you can't do anything risky with your guy, whereas with opulse, you can lose to all of knock + steam burn, crit, or water tera. this tends to be the most common check i see and i really don't buy it in any instance at all, this mon is a huge waste of a slot to not lose to palk.

:sm/arceus-fairy:
Arceus-Fairy @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Magical Torque
- Glare
- Roost
- Court Change

probably the least unviable mon here, arceus-fairy is generally able to check palk thanks to the dragon energy immunity and enough raw spdef to tank the water moves. cloak means you aren't vulnerable to steam burns, meaning the interaction is generally pretty safe, and torque/glare allow you to fight back with the threat of status. however, this is your arceus slot you're giving up, which is hugely detrimental and on many structures (ones that aren't going for double furscales 600-turn wincons) is simply not a possibility - in addition to this, spout just straight 2HKOes, with steam potentially 2HKOing after spikes / guaranteeing with water tera, meaning this might just end up as another speedtie machine. this also doesn't enjoy any other special attackers really, with specs miraidon just 2HKOing with RV / enamorus hitting it heavy with mixed attacks / etern and dialga potentially carrying SE coverage for it / gambit etern just deleting, so it's a pretty heavy cost just to semi-reliably check palk.

the point i'm trying to get across from this post is that palkia's best checks are simply not easy to fit on teams / are not truly viable outside of checking palkia. palkia-o exacerbates the issue of tera a lot, however even with tera gone, i still think it will be too much, as the general reduced offensive level of the meta means palkia teams can more readily prep for deconstructing walls and teams without a hard counter can no longer emergency tera to get off a clutch status or dtail. default palkia should also probably be tiered with origin palkia, as the do functionally the same thing of being unwallable for reasonable teams, and the only real change is that arceus-fairy becomes a slightly better check until it gets paralyzed.
 

Tea Guzzler

forever searching for a 10p freddo
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Hi, 2 small announcements.
  • Firstly, i'm hosting a Community Create-A-Team in the Other Metas room on Pokemon Showdown! at 10PM GMT+0 on the 25th of February (next Saturday). This is your chance to get involved with the teambuilding process and hopefully create some power!
  • Secondly, we're waiting until the conclusion of the No Tera Tour to do any tiering action. Hopefully this will be on the 26th or 27th. Sorry for the delays.
 

Tea Guzzler

forever searching for a 10p freddo
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a few thoughts on things i've been using recently:

:ss/zacian-crowned:
Zacian-Crowned @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Ooze
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Magical Torque
- Spirit Shackle
- Toxic
- Recover

liquid ooze is a lot more dangerous than last gen, where it was a gimmick at best. the presence of something viable with high attack that both dissuades imposter from switching in and has a flexible ability slot means you can generally keep sap hidden until you're ready to remove something, and thanks to the high attack of the three main possible users (zacian, slaking, groudon) the thing using sap will almost always die from full (arceus lives adamant zac/don sap on 6hp if sapping from full, so if it's been hit basically at all, it's gone). this meta's focus on bulky setup stuff + recover PP nerf means a much greater reliance on sap, which i think ooze takes better advantage of than bounce or good as gold. even if it gets scouted, there will be some situations where the opponent is simply unable to heal, as to kill the ooze mon they need to boost excessively while injured which generally isn't safe. the main issue is that a lot of the mons running ooze have a pretty heavy opportunity cost and having a scouted ooze means you can't instantly remove a mon with a surprise switch. pairs best with phys boosters that tend to get sap spammed like coil slaking and victory/tidy groudon.

:sm/slaking:
Slaking @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Coil
- Population Bomb
- Toxic
- Strength Sap

toxic is catching on as one of the most consistent ways to break fat teams, and is generally the reason for eternatus being so common on them (is both immune to toxic and absorbs tspikes). heal bell is generally hard to fit and the absurd bulk of a lot of stuff means indirect damage is a good matchup-consistent way to break past, both for forcing choice item ranges and for late-game booster cleanup - this also enables fat teams to make consistent progress without overreliance on boosters. the pool of toxic immunes is pretty small and linear in play, which makes them generally OK to prepare for with ground coverage or knock off, and there's not a whole lot that viably runs magic guard to get around the passive damage. i can see this overtaking para as the primary status in the meta since para is only really useful against offense (which you mightn't even be getting chances to use).

:sm/arceus-ghost:
Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Judgment
- Focus Blast
- Strength Sap

QD is definitely a contributing factor for fat being a strong playstyle right now, but i don't think removing it would solve the meta. you can broadly categorize QD users into 2 groups - bulky setup wincons (like the arceus above) and demonic breakers (such as palkia-o). my point is that removing QD slightly reduces the problem but doesn't remove it - bulky stuff can still freely go calm mind and still be unkillable, with the only real opening being that you can now toxic it with zacian (which in reality is likely just going to lead to longer, more drawn out games to PP stall toxic), and demonic stuff can still go nasty plot/speed boost or even simpleplot and still be unwallable without full immunity. the only thing that QD would completely axe is the small few mons in the middle - mons which use QD as a sort of utility tool, where the main draw is the speed but they need the SpA to the point where agility isn't a viable replacement - stuff like QD eternatus, normalizers, and non-furscales QD arc would simply cease to exist, and these just aren't problematic. i'm not sure if this tradeoff is really worth it.

:sm/arceus-ghost:
Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Normalize
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Entrainment
- Quiver Dance
- Jungle Healing

speaking of normalize, it's actually sorta not a gimmick this time. if you're willing and able to give up the arceus slot, this is a potent wincon that can break past weakened teams, particularly ones reliant on regenvest for momentum and ones with a specially frail prankster (if they even have one) like dondozo. most walls don't typically carry haze in my experience, which makes sweeping through easier, and jungle healing completely negates a would-be stopgap in toxic (and, realistically, strength sap offers higher healing but you probably won't need it), making otherwise-fine teams vulnerable. you obviously struggle with ability shield and spooky plate imp, however both of these are removeable and mono-Judgment means improofing is ultra-free if you can't get the plate beforehand.
 
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when people ask me why I use water absorb zacc and if it's only for palkia, my answer is chadface yes

also pretty good against banded palafin, and any other kyogre water spam qd sets if that's still a thing

here's the set

much love and go annoy people with this, zacian seems to attract a lot of water spam, set up a sub when they realize they can't touch you to stop imposter and other annoyances, I mean, what else do you need, only things like heatran can really stop you, even if an imposter comes in while you're setting up sub, you can just stall out the imposter, keep the sub up, a lot of mons want to use flip turn to break your sub, it's kind of the standard pivot move, dondozo etc

zacian-crowned.gif


dark knight (Zacian-Crowned) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Recover
- Substitute
- Victory Dance
- Magical Torque

I think I'm just going to keep posting my team because I've found these are really good answers to common mons in the tier

sand stream garganacl

garganacl.gif


salt (Garganacl) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Baneful Bunker
- Salt Cure
- Stone Axe

garganacl really excels in bh, switch into orchilium pulse spam, while also dealing passive damage, baneful bunker on vcreate, or salt cure, you can set up rocks, switch into strong dragon or special attacks with boosted spedef, like miralidon, tera ground on boosted rising voltage, just a solid mon that answers things that are hard to answer, steel and water is everywhere in the tier so of course spamming salt cure to "sweep" is very viable, what wants to switch into salt cure, stone axe for stab rocks, that does decent damage, really like this mon and see no reason to change it any time soon

there was like one day in the meta where everyone was spamming zacc triple arrows spam, so I made this

gholdengo.gif


Gholdengo @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Leech Seed
- Torch Song
- Astral Barrage

so of course it's to counter triple arrow spam, but also you can switch into zam trappers/bodypress, go tera ghost if salt cure is getting annoying, torch song goes through zacc sub, obviously you get roasted by vcreate, astral hits pretty hard and this is a pretty good wall breaker
 
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Tea Guzzler

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i have some things

first off: tera suspect, go get reqs

second off: we have new stuff, but it's unfortunately not really relevant.

Walking Wake - Water/Dragon, 99/83/91/125/83/109
this is unfortunately just worse palkia, with lower stats and no unknockable item. even if both origin and altered get banned, you'd be sort of throwing by using this, the 125 SpA and lack of item just damage this too severely.


Iron Leaves - Grass/Psychic, 90/130/88/70/108/104
the BST is just too low and the typing is just not good. 4x weakness to u-turn is incredibly damning (the only reason hoopa-u gets away with it is because of STAB wicked blow and 160/170 offenses) and if you're looking for a defensive grass type (which, honestly, why would you) then brute-bonnet and arceus-grass just exist. both of these types are just too bad to make use of offensively this gen.

new moves - hydro steam (80BP, Special, Water - In the sun, negates sun's 1/2 Water damage and has 1.5x power) and psyblade (80BP, Physical, Psychic - In Electric Terrain, 1.5x power) are really nothing special. there isn't anything in BH that uses sun defensively ATM, so hydro steam isn't worth running to negate it (if ori pulse arc-fairy picks up enough it'll be because palkia is banworthy) especially given the drop in BP from not using steam or spout. psyblade exists but not really, the use case is about as fringe as you can get - specs miraidon can run it to break past clodsire (since this is the only circumstance ever where it's getting the BP boost), but clodsire does not exist outside of akira's sample and you have other things to use the moveslot on.

third off: no-tera tour team

:slaking::zacian-crowned::groudon::dialga-origin::chansey::arceus-ghost:
liquid ooze and norm arc-ghost are very much not memes this time around, i went into detail on a post last week. this team excels at baiting sap and removing common sappers, and is best used as a fat-mauler due to the slaking, imp and lack of a prank mon. normalize arc can spiral pretty easily out of control if the opponent doesn't preserve their probably-only counter and improofing against spooky plate is about as free as they come (you just switch to slaking and get a free turn), and jungle healing is significantly better than sap as shaking toxic is huge. don has flaming torque to prevent ground-immune zac-c from spinblocking forever, tera fire's damage is sometimes actually worth but generally you want to tera arc-ghost for damage (slaking honestly doesn't need the tera damage most of the time).

fourth off: blasta's sets above

i am not really a fan of any of these, and there's a number of reasons why:
  • the zacian-c is serviceable, but i don't really see why you wouldn't run desolate land here. psea palkia is a free win because if the opponent is using psea palkia they are likely not using a proper team (otherwise, it does not exist) and it gives you free v-create damage and synthesis healing (which is not just objectively better than recover). sub/victory also seems a little sketchy when you can't really do anything to stop prank stuff from just spamming haze or torch song usrs like moltres/fc etern from just bypassing sub and ruining you.
  • this garg set just isn't very good i won't lie. sand stream's use of cutting off orichalcum pulse is very limited when almost all opulse users run headlong rush for WBB zac, and the spdef isn't really relevant when you have -2 resistances (every relevant special attacker 2HKOes this because you don't resist their attacks and also have sub-par spdef). i also don't really get wish/bunker when shore up exists and is the only reason you'd ever want to use sand, and this also doesn't like covert cloak simply existing (let alone being common).
  • you could maybe argue that gholdengo is BH viable in some alternate universe - unfortunately, not here. not only is ghold weak to both fire and ground (which a fur coater should almost definitely not be, particularly fire) but this moveset does little of value (it does not wallbreak - 133 spa, no boosting ability and fire/ghost means most special walls can just pivot completely free on you) and having a fighting-immunity is fringe at best. also, if you want a fur coat ghost, arceus-ghost is literally right there.
tldr i would not recommend using any of those three sets.
 
I can say with confidence over half my wins are just from that zacc set, the reason it isn't desolate sun is because after a few boosts and tera fairy to take away your steel weaknesses you can take vcreates behind sub and otherwise to weaken opposing zacc, also, setting up a sub and getting healed by donbozo or any other water attacker/flip turner saves you turns needed to heal, if a mon is prankster then it can't be fur coat, and with tera fairy even unboosted it's taking big damage from magical torque but I digress, I ran into a lot of potential switchins with sand stream garg, especially on a bulky/stall team the sand damage and in conjunction with knock off support and general stall tactics the damage adds up, very good against a large amount of teams, otherwise I wouldn't have gotten to high ladder with it, and next, fur coat gholdengo is for zacian sets that don't have vcreate, which contrary to popular belief do exist, not everyone is running vcreate, it has a lot of general utility being a ghost and being unable to be trapped and firing off big astrals, it is modest btw

anyways, I feel I have the right to respond as I'm ranked 7 in the tier at the moment after not playing the game for 3 months and maybe I can further explain why these sets are viable, if this post gets deleted just lol at this site honestly

I also totally disagree with tera suspect but once again I don't think it really effects me and I don't really care for getting reqs every day
 
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Wanted to share a team I've been using recently that's had tons of success. I posted a prior iteration of the team on the Suspect Thread, but I've since made a couple changes that make it overall far more reliable.

Scarlet Velvet
:chansey: :meloetta: :zacian-crowned: :brute_bonnet: :arceus-ground: :eternatus:
https://pokepast.es/ef18c7aea2e19ab6

Summary: Double GT Offense + Future Sight Meloetta
How to use: The Combination of Zacian-C and Brute Bonnet is extremely hard to wall, using pivot moves on Eternatus, Meloetta and Chansey, try to get them in as much as possible. Eventually your opponent's defensive core will shatter, especially with FC Eternatus and Arc-Ghost having their strength sap blocked by Chansey. Meloetta's Future Sight can force the opponent into very dangerous situations since Zacian's torque or V-create can both threaten to 2hko otherwise unbreakable neutral FCs. Tera can amplify Zacian or Bonnet's power to absurd levels, both able to cleanly OHKO anything with less bulk than Arceus.
Vulnerabilities: While the team tries to answer as many Zacian sets as possible with fur coaters packing both ground and fire moves, both able to bypass substitute, appropriate utility moves and abilities on sub setup Zacian can still bypass it, examples being well baked body toxic Zac, or tera fairy moldy setup. Another vulnerability is Arceus-Ground's Improofing, Imposter will be reluctant to trade toxics, but it can effectively break past the team if you let it come in on a +2 or +3 Arceus. In practice, you can wear Imposter down reliably enough and exploit it's limited attacking pp since Eternatus reliably lives +1 Earthquake, however if you want more consistency, you might want to follow one of the suggested changes.
Potential Modifications: Meloetta could be swapped for either an Arceus forme (normalize jungle healing ghost or magic guard Arceus-flying are interesting options) while swapping Arceus-Ground to Groudon and removing toxic in order to allow it to improof easier, perhaps with whatever replaces Meloetta. This risks being unable to beat Arceus-Ghost carrying Triple Arrows if Chansey can't Tera, however it would allow the team to Improof its Ground type better as well as add another progress-maker, since Meloetta can struggle to get Future Sight off. Another option would be replacing Meloetta with Guts Slaking, who can Self-Improof with facade and Improof Arceus-Ground, however you become totally reliant on Chansey as a special check, which can be risky.

Tera
this team exploits Tera's utility to the maximum, on Offense, Defense, to self-Improof, etc. It can be really fun but the sheer power it's allowed my GT mons to bring out has convinced me that Tera is unbalanced.
 
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Good morning ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to talk about the absolute state of sword doggo.

From last generation's BH, Zacian-C has been nerfed -20 ATK and Intrepid Sword only activating once per game. However, just because Zacian-C has been nerfed in general gameplay, it doesn't the same carries over in BH. Zacian-C still remains one of the most prominent threats in the offensive metagame. Zacian-C is a near-requirement on on every successful team to the point where not using Zacian-C is considered a waste of a slot. Furthermore, with all Zacian-Cs usually having a Jolly natures means that many Zacian battles boil down to pure RNG rather than skill or team building.

Stats and Typing - The Nerf Was Nothing
Zacian-C, even without its increased potential in BH is incredibly broken to begin with. Its unique typing makes it weak to only Ground and Fire, while also resistant over half the available types. This typing, combined with its impressive 115 base defense and special defense, makes it quite tanky to most moves. It can survive Precipice Blades from a non attack+ nature Groudon, which is one of the main, if not only, offensive counter. Its base 115 defenses are also seen in Magearna, which was a popular tank in the BHG8 scene. With its increased base HP, Zacian-C serves as a better tank then Magearna was.

On top of being a tank, Zacian-C is a phenomenal fast physical powerhouse with a base 150 attack and base 148 speed. It's high base speed means that your likely to suffer a hit from sword doggo before you can deal one in return. Zacian-C is tied for 3rd highest base attack and 4th highest base speed. Its competition for base speed include Calyrex-S
which is banned, Electrode
which is usually nonviable, and Regieleki
which usually functions as setup or needs some stat boosts to be considered a serious threat. That being said, Zacian-C is devastating as both one of the fastest and strongest Pokemon, further boosted by its bulk.

Moves - A Russian Roulette
Despite its nerf in attack, BHG9 have Zacian-C a wide array of new toys to play with. Magical Torque and Gigaton Hammer are major threats in Zacian-C's arsenal and easily make up for it's decrease in attack with the boost from STAB. BHG8 had a lack of outstanding STAB moves with Rough Play and Sunsteel Strike being the best it could get. Despite this, it could run other high BP moves which are further powered up by G9's addition of tera-typing. V-Create and Headlong Rush pose an even greater threat when Zacian-C has tera'd into the respective type. Victory Dance on Zacian-C is particularly terrifying, able to increase its most prominent stats while also being able to decrease damage from super-effective attacks, given the majority of Ground and Fire moves are physical. Taunt can work in tandem with Zacian-C's speed to prevent targets from healing or Hazing in the case of setup. Substitute, combined with Zacian-C's high speed, means that it will be able to set up barriers for damage before the opponent moves, increasing its defensive options. Substitute stacks on top of its already considerable bulk, making it hard to break though. Substitute not only ensure 2 hits in before the target can actually do damage, but also makes Zacian-C immune to countering status moves.

Abilities - A Guessing Game
In addition to new physical moves which synergize with Zacian-C's fast and heavy-hitting play style, some of the new abilities this generation make Zacian-C's blows more devastating or even more resistant to counter play.

Offense: BHG9 introduces Orichalium Pulse, increasing the user's attack by 1.33 in the sun, and Sword of Ruin, which decreases the target's defense by 25% (doing the math, this is also a 1.33 multiplier). These 1.33 attack multiplier abilities do not have the restriction of Gorilla Tactics or choice items meaning the Zacian-C can use moves without needing to account for a prediction switch. Gorilla Tactics is also scary on Zacian-C combined with Choice Band resulting in a 2.25 multiplier. While offense on Zacian-C hits like a truck, it's very predictable. Orichalium Pulse and Sword of Ruin have indicators which let players know the ability. Gorrila Tactics is also inferable due to the switch outs. Offensively, Zacian-C is very straightforward: hit hard, hit fast; however, there many sets which can tank physical damage well.

Defense: I'd say that Zacian-C's ability slot truly shines with defensive abilities. Its offense is already high and can be bolstered by Tidy Up/Victory Dance so its ability slot leaves plenty of room to patch up any holes it might have. Defensively, Zacian is threatened by three things: Fire, Ground and Status. Fire and Ground are obvious while status can either lower Zacian's attack so counterplay options can switch in or burn/paralyze it in order to level the playing field. This is where the guessing game begins. Coincidentally, there are abilities which negate each one of these things. Fire can be negated via Well Baked Body/Flash Fire, Ground is negated via Earth Eater/Levitate and Status is negated via Good As Gold or Covert Cloak. I have seen some player's run Water type moves to evade these defenses but there exists a counter for that as well in Orichalium Pulse or the more elusive Water Absorb. While playing against sword doggo, it is vital to not waste a single move because that would be a devastating hit from one of the most powerful physical attackers. But, the plethora of abilities at Zacian-C's disposal means that guessing the ability is never that straightforward.

Counterplay - The Few But The Not So Proud
While Zacian-C is powerful in many aspects, this doesn't mean its downright unbeatable. Most of its offensive moves are able to be resisted by fire. Fur Coat on Arceus-Fire
is able to wall most of Zacian-C's attacks and live two Headlong Rushes before fainting. Arceus-Fire also has access to V-Create which can OHKO Zacian-C. Despite its counter potential, Arceus is also one of the best Pokemon this generation with access to many unknockable items. Using an Arceus for Zacian-C countering would be nothing short of a waste.

As mentioned earlier, Groudon
also works as an offensive counter against Zacian-C. But, Groudon's low base speed means that it must first tank a hit from Zacian-C before it can hit back. Fur Coat Groudon is not only a classic set, but also a useful set to counter Zacian-C. On an average Zacian-C, Headlong Rush and Magical Torque do around 25% and V-Create does around 37% which is not nearly enough to KO Groundon. However, factoring in that a Substitute may be active, Groundon must first survive 50% damage before being able to counter. Usuprisingly, Zacian-C's wide variety of builds means that Groudon isn't always a threat. First of all, there is always the option of a defensive Fur Coat or Levitate. Secondly, Gorilla Tactics Magical Torque 2HKO's Groudon, even with Fur Coat. Groudon is a good choice, but it definitely isn't foolproof.

Fur Coat Dondozo
also works well to stall Zacian-C but not counter it. Playing Dondozo effectively gives the opposing Zacian-C 2 options: waste PP or switch out. Due to Dondozo's role as a physical tank, there is not much it can do offensively like break through a substitute or deal meaningful damage. Dondozo's Water type makes it vulnerable to Salt Cure dealing 25% in passive damage which is another tool in Zacian-C's stockpile. Overall, Dondozo can survive Zacian-C but not thrive against it.

Multi-hit moves, especially Surging Strikes, can bring down any substitutes Zacian-C has set up. Surging Strikes in particular has the ability to ignore any defense buffs Zacian-C has gained making it a great choice. Its main user, Palafin-Hero
, is not that tanky and will likely get knocked out without a proper preparation, not to mention the presence of Water Absorb/Orichalium Pulse.

Sound moves are also a potential way to bypass any substitutes or defenses Zacian-C sets up. Torch Song is great because it is not only special and bypasses substitute, but it is also boosted by Orichalium Pulse should that be the case. Unfortunately, no Fire type special attackers are fast enough to out-speed Zacian-C without a proper speed boost. There also lingers the potential possibility of Well Backed Body/Flash Fire which may inadvertently buff Zacian-C. Boomburst is a good option, but can't do much without an -ize/-ate ability. Unfortunately, 4 out of the 5 -ize/-ate moves are resisted by Zacian-C. Galvanize also lacks the proper support with Regieleki being a bit too frail and weak to do meaningful damage and Miraidon
being weak to Fairy, and unlikely to do much before getting Torqued.

Infiltrator is a strategy I have not yet seen and it is potentially a counter to Zacian-C. A combination of Infiltrator-Knock Off-Nuzzle avoids any defensive measures Zacian-C has and can remove Covert Cloak even with a substitute on. This however, forces a slot to be wasted on a Pokemon that is not good for anything except countering Zacian-C. The opportunity cost of such a Pokemon is very high and is easily avoidable if the Infiltrator is detected.

Conclusion
Zacian-C is a Pokemon with too much variety and not enough counters. Its top attack and speed stats make it an excellent physical sweeper, while its typing and defenses also allow for it to function as a solid tank. The number of powerful moves introduced this generation, combined with a few status moves, results in a variety of Zacian-C sets each with physical prowess but each with different weaknesses. Due to the variety of Zacian-C sets, it's hard to find a few consistent counters to Zacian-C. A counter that can work for one set can get destroyed by another set. Overall, counters are stretched too thin and between too many Pokemon to be consistent. In conclusion, 11/10 Pokemon, would ban again.
 
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Tea Guzzler

forever searching for a 10p freddo
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
ok i have some things i would like to talk about:

:fairy gem:
ultimately i feel like tera being gone will be beneficial for the meta. tera excels at pushing balanced metagame threats into the broken grey area, and if we were to axe it and ban the abusers instead, i feel that long-term we're going to be banning too much. stuff still needs sorting out besides tera and gets broken by tera (see all three things below), but i think tera itself is the issue.

:sv/palkia-origin:
this thing should have not been allowed to remain free. there's a whole post here on why i think this is dumb, and the likelihood is that it gets QBed if the suspect ends up not banning tera, however i think that even if tera goes this should as well. idk about you but i don't really think "your special wall doesn't work unless you choose arceus-fairy or chansey" going to "if your special wall isn't arceus-fairy or chansey, it will fail after minor chip" is a dealbreaker for this mon being healthy, especially given how easy chip is to accumulate with spikes. palkia will likely create the same strain on teambuilding that it does now even if tera goes, and should be axed either way imo.

:ss/darmanitan-galar:
i'm on the fence with GT but don't really get a couple of the ban reasons, and i just don't think it's one of the most pressing issues in the meta right now. arguments that GT mandates fur coat are not fully true - with all the physical things in the gen (zacian-c, groudon, slaking, ursaluna, tidy up, headlong rush, population bomb, headlong rush, arceus-fire, koraidon, hoopa-u and some others i'm probably forgetting), fur coaters are still going to be basically mandatory, so a GT ban wouldn't somehow revolutionize teambuilding. from a gameplay perspective, a fur coat resist generally isn't totally necessary and once again tera is the only thing that pushes them into overdrive (since 2HKOing a fur coat mon just isn't OK), and outside of tera zac-c is the only really problematic one. given that last sentence, tiering policy and what you'll see below, GT isn't what we'd be taking action on.

:ss/zacian-crowned:
1677758626829.png

it seems highly likely that zac-c is our next big tiering action after tera. 90.1% is bordering on RBY Tauros levels of centralizing which i don't think is desirable in a modern tier. i consider zac-c to be similar to AAA gholdengo - it has good defensive typing for an offensive pokemon, a wide degree of set variety, and no one set being severely broken on its own (magic guard ghold and GT zac are the ones that toe the line here). unlike gholdengo, zac-c trades being offensive on every set for a significantly wider array of set variety, ranging from choice band to setup to support to sub, where each one plays drastically differently and requires different check to beat. as i said, i think GT zac is the only really problematic GT mon if tera is taken out of the equation, largely due to its speed and STAB magical torque.
 

tzaur

فلسطين حرة
is a Tiering Contributor
Greetings. Has been quite a minute since I've played this meta. Some scattered thoughts on it.

1677999313328.png

I have very strong feelings about this ability. Gorilla Tactics not only should have been banned months ago, but I would take it a step further and say that it also should have been in the initial banlist or, at the very least, the first few bundles of bans. Even without the moldy moves, I just don't think this move will ever be balanced. GT is easily much more absurd than Poison Heal ever has been/will ever be, period. Yes, Zac-C is the main abuser from what I've seen/experienced; however, that’s because the damn thing leaves virtually no room for people to explore other GT options. It has a fantastic type combination with an uncontested speed tier while having an attack stat comparable to its GT counterparts. Even if we banned Zac-C, people would just resort to alternatives such as Groudon, Ursaluna, Calyrex-I, Koraidon, Rayquaza, and the like which would still be problematic.

S-
:arceus::spooky plate:Arceus-Ghost - Can usually come in on Zacian. Should never be your only Zacian/GT counterplay. Can get bullshitted by Magical Torque confusion. Torque has chance to 2HKO with Tera after a layer of Spikes. Almost always forced to click Sap after coming in which Zacian can take advantage of. Not sure how common it is, but Wicked Blow can be annoying. Ran into one running Adamant Wicked Blow, and it cleanly 2HKO'd. Similar case against Don. Main difference is that Ghostceus easily outruns Adamant Band and Sap to get its health back. Again, the GT user can find ways to take advantage of this since most players won't just risk their Ghostceus or they can just lose instantly if it goes down and they have no other answer.

A
:groudon:Groudon / :arceus::earth plate: Arceus-Ground - Probably the best FC answers at the moment in my opinion if not Waterceus. Meaty defense stat, can threaten back with PBlades or soften with Knock Off. Takes advantage of the fact that no one really uses GT Caly-I. Mainly aggravated by random Flip Turns and weird Power Whip/Flower Trick sets.

A-
:arceus::flame plate:Arceus-Fire - Relies on Tera to not keel over to HR. Pretty high chance to get 2HKO'd by Headlong Rush from Jolly Zac-C. Adamant cleanly 2HKO's. Cannot come in on GT Don. HR flat-out 2HKOs, and it doesn't even need the Choice Band to do so. From full, Adamant Tera Band obviously deletes it.

:slaking:Slaking / Ursaluna (B) - Don't really have much experience FC variants of these and have never seen them--so maybe someone could enlighten me on what set it would use. I see these also being solid for the same reason Don. GT mons don't really use either of the CCs since HR/VC just covers more ground, and FC Normal-types aren't common enough to account for. Would argue, however, that GT is responsible for FC even being considered on these.

B+
:dondozo: Dondozo - Not a fan of this mon. Passive. Another good defensive check to a lot of GTs, but I always found this thing incredibly easy to exploit. GTs can tech stuff like Toxic or, mainly in Rayquaza's case, run mixed GT to limit its switchins. Zacian in particular can lure it then laugh at its futile attempts to break an unexpected Substitute. However, I do believe it's perfectly fair to argue that this is moreso Zacian being absurd rather than GT in this case - but I'll get to that later. Again, I would also argue that GT is at least partially responsible for this mon's prevalence.

:arceus::splash plate: Arceus-Water A much better FC water than Dozo IMO. Not quite as exploitable since while it can offer a lot of defensive utility, it also has the stats to do decent damage to things. Main issue is that this can occupy your Arceus slot.

:eternatus:Eternatus - See Arceus-Fire.

B
:moltres: Moltres - Another reliable answer to most GTs, especially Zacian. Only hates eating a Toxic or which is not common (as it should be) on it or random Flip Turns. Again, would argue that Zacian/GT is responsible for this mon being around.

C
:arceus::iron plate: Arceus-Steel - Fur Coat is listed as an option, but it does not deal with any of the common GT mons. Can never come in reliably since it just gets fried by any Banded GT HR/VC.

D
:kyogre: Kyogre - Kind of an unset overall IMO, but it would probably be okay-ish for similar reasons as Waterceus without using the Arceus slot.

:koraidon: Koraidon - Magical Torque.

:zamazenta-crowned: Zamazenta-Crowned - See Steelceus.

Some of these even being answers is contingent on being at full health, having 0 hazards on their end, and not somehow getting farmed by Tera/Toxic. Of these FC candidates, I believe that the most reliable answers to GT are Groudon, Groundceus, Waterceus, Slaking, Ursaluna, Moltres, and Potentially Kyogre. Of those, I only believe Groudon, Groundceus, and Waterceus are the only ones that would be solid FC mons that formerly answered Zac-C/GT. I'd like to see action taken on at least one of them - preferably both. While FC would still be common, I do believe that a lot more teams could easily get away with not running it. Moreover, I also believe that a ban would open up for more alternative FC options.

1677999439194.png

Also have strong feelings about this thing. Once it gets to +1, something is dying if it's anything other than Fairyceus with Scales or Regen-Vest + Spirit Break/Nuzzle, a blob with Scales, which is a joke of a set, or some random Water Absorb Fairy-type/Dragon resist. Otherwise, your best bet is to send in you Regen-Vester in on it the moment it enters the field and threaten a Nuzzle or Glare it with your Prankster so you can threaten an RK from a strong physical attacker. If it's already at +1, most Regen-Vesters get 2HKOd by its STABs on the switch. Everything else keels over to its STABs especially at +1 after minor chip which, as Tea Man mentioned, is fairly easy to do through Spikes - something to also keep in mind for the GT discussion above. Tera just makes this mon even more nonsense. Can Tera Water to avoid KOs from strong Dragon/Fairy moves in a pinch while also making Steam Eruption do astronomical damage. Had a few instances where things like Pixilate Fairyceus threatened to pick Palk-O off with ExtremeSpeed but missing the KO due to Tera.

1677999344747.png

Also a problematic mon. Would like to see Zacian, and GT gone first, though. I think it should at least be suspect tested perhaps after a potential Zacian-C suspect. Would likely vote ban. Forces Ice Scales/Regen-Vest Ground-types or Ice Scales Electric resists (that isn't weak to Dragon Energy) to not get blown up by Specs/+1 Rising Voltage. Misty Terrain can also neutralize it, but I think that's a bit of an off-meta ability. Have seen more QD sets with Draco Judgment sets pop up more often which I actually find scarier than the Specs sets since you can't just swap in your SpDef Ground to eat a Dragon move then immediately swap to Zacian/whatever other Fairy used. Just like Palk-O, Tera also makes this mon nonsense. Can Tera Electric to avoid KOs from super effective moves or Pixilate/Refrigerate E-Speeds. Can also elect to Tera Dragon to brute force through most specially defensive Ground answers. Lastly, it's worth mentioning that, unlike Palk-O, unless it Terastallizes to Dragon, you can't paralyze it. Best bet for Regen-Vest Grounds is to remove the item/threaten with PBlades/EQ. I still find this mon more absurd than Palkia-O due to the higher damage potential and the inability to paralyze it.

1677999358120.png

I've wanted this mon gone for a while now. Won't spend much time discussing this as Geneku2 above thoroughly explained why it's absurd despite the nerfs and despite the lack of access to Anchor Shot and Sunsteel Strike. Well worth reading and giving what they said some thought. It has a fantastic defensive typing which allows it to comfortably switch in on a lot of stuff. Constantly threatens offensive mons in a speed tier below it. It can choose between being a breaker with GT/Mold Breaker, a bulky setup wincon that can sub against otherwise passive checks, or an annoying Covert Cloak Bounce/immunity utility set; good luck finding out which one and beating it. For the most part, each has different counterplay. As mentioned, it has an uncontested Speed tier; the only mon that naturally outruns it is Regieleki which obviously does pathetic damage to it in most cases, so it's a nightmare to RK/pressure offensively save for somehow paralyzing it. Aside from Koraidon, a mon that would be much easier to manage, there's a pretty significant cliff after Zac-C's speed amongst the other physical attackers, so they're easier to pressure. I would argue that this mon is, as well as GT, responsible for FC being everywhere and would would still enforce FC even if GT got banned before the mon.

We should also keep in mind that Zac-C, Palk-O, and Mirai are also issues in tandem with each other. Their checks hardly overlap if at all. Regen-Vest/Scales Ground-types get obliterated by BoR Steam Eruption and GT shenanigans. FC mons cannot stomach Palk-O/Mirai's strong attacks. Chansey Ice Scales covers Palk-O/Mirai, but it gets nuked by banded GT moves. If you'd like to cover them all reliably, you'll likely need two or three mons each from different pools of checks

1677999371605.png

Abstaining on Tera. Still neutral and will likely vote DNB if I can find the time to get reqs for the suspect only because I believe that the above are more pressing issues. Will have further thoughts on this soon. Will say that I'm not sure why it got picked to get suspect tested when over half of the survey voters either believe that Palk-O and GT are generally unbalanced and want action taken or want it gone immediately.
 
Greetings. Has been quite a minute since I've played this meta. Some scattered thoughts on it.

View attachment 497135
I have very strong feelings about this ability. Gorilla Tactics not only should have been banned months ago, but I would take it a step further and say that it also should have been in the initial banlist or, at the very least, the first few bundles of bans. Even without the moldy moves, I just don't think this move will ever be balanced. GT is easily much more absurd than Poison Heal ever has been/will ever be, period. Yes, Zac-C is the main abuser from what I've seen/experienced; however, that’s because the damn thing leaves virtually no room for people to explore other GT options. It has a fantastic type combination with an uncontested speed tier while having an attack stat comparable to its GT counterparts. Even if we banned Zac-C, people would just resort to alternatives such as Groudon, Ursaluna, Calyrex-I, Koraidon, Rayquaza, and the like which would still be problematic.

S-
:arceus::spooky plate:Arceus-Ghost - Can usually come in on Zacian. Should never be your only Zacian/GT counterplay. Can get bullshitted by Magical Torque confusion. Torque has chance to 2HKO with Tera after a layer of Spikes. Almost always forced to click Sap after coming in which Zacian can take advantage of. Not sure how common it is, but Wicked Blow can be annoying. Ran into one running Adamant Wicked Blow, and it cleanly 2HKO'd. Similar case against Don. Main difference is that Ghostceus easily outruns Adamant Band and Sap to get its health back. Again, the GT user can find ways to take advantage of this since most players won't just risk their Ghostceus or they can just lose instantly if it goes down and they have no other answer.

A
:groudon:Groudon / :arceus::earth plate: Arceus-Ground - Probably the best FC answers at the moment in my opinion if not Waterceus. Meaty defense stat, can threaten back with PBlades or soften with Knock Off. Takes advantage of the fact that no one really uses GT Caly-I. Mainly aggravated by random Flip Turns and weird Power Whip/Flower Trick sets.

A-
:arceus::flame plate:Arceus-Fire - Relies on Tera to not keel over to HR. Pretty high chance to get 2HKO'd by Headlong Rush from Jolly Zac-C. Adamant cleanly 2HKO's. Cannot come in on GT Don. HR flat-out 2HKOs, and it doesn't even need the Choice Band to do so. From full, Adamant Tera Band obviously deletes it.

:slaking:Slaking / Ursaluna (B) - Don't really have much experience FC variants of these and have never seen them--so maybe someone could enlighten me on what set it would use. I see these also being solid for the same reason Don. GT mons don't really use either of the CCs since HR/VC just covers more ground, and FC Normal-types aren't common enough to account for. Would argue, however, that GT is responsible for FC even being considered on these.

B+
:dondozo: Dondozo - Not a fan of this mon. Passive. Another good defensive check to a lot of GTs, but I always found this thing incredibly easy to exploit. GTs can tech stuff like Toxic or, mainly in Rayquaza's case, run mixed GT to limit its switchins. Zacian in particular can lure it then laugh at its futile attempts to break an unexpected Substitute. However, I do believe it's perfectly fair to argue that this is moreso Zacian being absurd rather than GT in this case - but I'll get to that later. Again, I would also argue that GT is at least partially responsible for this mon's prevalence.

:arceus::splash plate: Arceus-Water A much better FC water than Dozo IMO. Not quite as exploitable since while it can offer a lot of defensive utility, it also has the stats to do decent damage to things. Main issue is that this can occupy your Arceus slot.

:eternatus:Eternatus - See Arceus-Fire.

B
:moltres: Moltres - Another reliable answer to most GTs, especially Zacian. Only hates eating a Toxic or which is not common (as it should be) on it or random Flip Turns. Again, would argue that Zacian/GT is responsible for this mon being around.

C
:arceus::iron plate: Arceus-Steel - Fur Coat is listed as an option, but it does not deal with any of the common GT mons. Can never come in reliably since it just gets fried by any Banded GT HR/VC.

D
:kyogre: Kyogre - Kind of an unset overall IMO, but it would probably be okay-ish for similar reasons as Waterceus without using the Arceus slot.

:koraidon: Koraidon - Magical Torque.

:zamazenta-crowned: Zamazenta-Crowned - See Steelceus.

Some of these even being answers is contingent on being at full health, having 0 hazards on their end, and not somehow getting farmed by Tera/Toxic. Of these FC candidates, I believe that the most reliable answers to GT are Groudon, Groundceus, Waterceus, Slaking, Ursaluna, Moltres, and Potentially Kyogre. Of those, I only believe Groudon, Groundceus, and Waterceus are the only ones that would be solid FC mons that formerly answered Zac-C/GT. I'd like to see action taken on at least one of them - preferably both. While FC would still be common, I do believe that a lot more teams could easily get away with not running it. Moreover, I also believe that a ban would open up for more alternative FC options.

View attachment 497139
Also have strong feelings about this thing. Once it gets to +1, something is dying if it's anything other than Fairyceus with Scales or Regen-Vest + Spirit Break/Nuzzle, a blob with Scales, which is a joke of a set, or some random Water Absorb Fairy-type/Dragon resist. Otherwise, your best bet is to send in you Regen-Vester in on it the moment it enters the field and threaten a Nuzzle or Glare it with your Prankster so you can threaten an RK from a strong physical attacker. If it's already at +1, most Regen-Vesters get 2HKOd by its STABs on the switch. Everything else keels over to its STABs especially at +1 after minor chip which, as Tea Man mentioned, is fairly easy to do through Spikes - something to also keep in mind for the GT discussion above. Tera just makes this mon even more nonsense. Can Tera Water to avoid KOs from strong Dragon/Fairy moves in a pinch while also making Steam Eruption do astronomical damage. Had a few instances where things like Pixilate Fairyceus threatened to pick Palk-O off with ExtremeSpeed but missing the KO due to Tera.

View attachment 497136
Also a problematic mon. Would like to see Zacian, and GT gone first, though. I think it should at least be suspect tested perhaps after a potential Zacian-C suspect. Would likely vote ban. Forces Ice Scales/Regen-Vest Ground-types or Ice Scales Electric resists (that isn't weak to Dragon Energy) to not get blown up by Specs/+1 Rising Voltage. Misty Terrain can also neutralize it, but I think that's a bit of an off-meta ability. Have seen more QD sets with Draco Judgment sets pop up more often which I actually find scarier than the Specs sets since you can't just swap in your SpDef Ground to eat a Dragon move then immediately swap to Zacian/whatever other Fairy used. Just like Palk-O, Tera also makes this mon nonsense. Can Tera Electric to avoid KOs from super effective moves or Pixilate/Refrigerate E-Speeds. Can also elect to Tera Dragon to brute force through most specially defensive Ground answers. Lastly, it's worth mentioning that, unlike Palk-O, unless it Terastallizes to Dragon, you can't paralyze it. Best bet for Regen-Vest Grounds is to remove the item/threaten with PBlades/EQ. I still find this mon more absurd than Palkia-O due to the higher damage potential and the inability to paralyze it.

View attachment 497137
I've wanted this mon gone for a while now. Won't spend much time discussing this as Geneku2 above thoroughly explained why it's absurd despite the nerfs and despite the lack of access to Anchor Shot and Sunsteel Strike. Well worth reading and giving what they said some thought. It has a fantastic defensive typing which allows it to comfortably switch in on a lot of stuff. Constantly threatens offensive mons in a speed tier below it. It can choose between being a breaker with GT/Mold Breaker, a bulky setup wincon that can sub against otherwise passive checks, or an annoying Covert Cloak Bounce/immunity utility set; good luck finding out which one and beating it. For the most part, each has different counterplay. As mentioned, it has an uncontested Speed tier; the only mon that naturally outruns it is Regieleki which obviously does pathetic damage to it in most cases, so it's a nightmare to RK/pressure offensively save for somehow paralyzing it. Aside from Koraidon, a mon that would be much easier to manage, there's a pretty significant cliff after Zac-C's speed amongst the other physical attackers, so they're easier to pressure. I would argue that this mon is, as well as GT, responsible for FC being everywhere and would would still enforce FC even if GT got banned before the mon.

We should also keep in mind that Zac-C, Palk-O, and Mirai are also issues in tandem with each other. Their checks hardly overlap if at all. Regen-Vest/Scales Ground-types get obliterated by BoR Steam Eruption and GT shenanigans. FC mons cannot stomach Palk-O/Mirai's strong attacks. Chansey Ice Scales covers Palk-O/Mirai, but it gets nuked by banded GT moves. If you'd like to cover them all reliably, you'll likely need two or three mons each from different pools of checks

View attachment 497138
Abstaining on Tera. Still neutral and will likely vote DNB if I can find the time to get reqs for the suspect only because I believe that the above are more pressing issues. Will have further thoughts on this soon. Will say that I'm not sure why it got picked to get suspect tested when over half of the survey voters either believe that Palk-O and GT are generally unbalanced and want action taken or want it gone immediately.
While this post summarizes the issues with the meta essentially perfectly, I thought I add a bit more as well. The boost from Gorilla Tactics is so large in many cases that even Fur Coat Pokemon are finding themselves increasingly relying on Strength Sap just to survive. While there's nothing per-say a problem with the move itself: It's a solid all-around choice, when something as exploitable as Strength Sap is a requirement to stay alive even for the bulkiest Fur Coat Pokemon it's evident there is an issue. As a result of folks realizing that even on multi-Fur Coat teams, Strength Sap is essentially a requirement to live a lot of hits long-term from Gorilla Tactics you see the increase of Pokemon like Chansey and the spike in abilities like Liquid Ooze and Good As Gold to severe that lifeline. And once that lifeline is severed it becomes comically easy to shatter even cores with 2 or more Fur Coat pokemon.

Here's an example of that in action:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1805894787-kyh91a9oto4ec565vhepb7o5j047gyqpw .

In this case, my opponent using a typical Fur Coat core was done for no matter how they built their team. If they didn't have Strength Sap on their pokemon wouldn't be able to survive my Slakings moves for long. If they do they equally have lost because I have a way to block their healing. As put more eloquently by Tzaur, Gorilla tactics and Zacian should've been banned ages ago. And I would take it even further to say there is much more tiering action that needs to be done to make physical offense reasonable to manage.
 
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Tea Guzzler

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FWIW council voted on both gorilla tactics and palkia-o before the suspect and neither ended up getting banned, and tera seemed like the logical next step since it's the thing that arguably pushes these into being broken. palkia-o as i've repeatedly said should've been removed anyway, but GT may be a little problematic now that sap blocking is actually becoming a thing (we voted before ooze made its first appearance in tournaments). ultimately, the only GT mons that people are realistically using if zac-c gets banned are groudon, ursaluna, and maybe slaking - the others you suggested, like koraidon/caly-i/ray, just generally have poor STABs in the current meta and have less-than-stellar defensive profiles (korai and ray are frail-as-anything dragons, caly is both slow and an ice type). sapblocking is the only realistic way GT is problematic, as in a meta with no tera or zac-c, GT's killing power is significantly limited and every GT mon is vulnerable to offensive pressure by a large part of the tier (which, because of zacian-c's speed and tera normal espeed ursa, isn't the case now). ooze has realistic opportunity cost so we'll have to wait and see if it heavily picks up, but if it does then that's good grounds for action (good as gold is just objectively worse for sap blocking - instantly removing arceus-ghost is better than stopping it from healing but still letting it click judgment).

i do not think mirai is worth suspecting as of current. similar to GT, its removal simply won't significantly change building (probably won't change it at all), and common special walls sort of just bully it. specs sets are nearly impossible to switch in safely and are highly vulnerable to getting hard-walled simply by existing, on top of relying on dragon energy but also having no recovery. draco plate is in my experience significantly easier to deal with, as there is a lot less instant damage + you don't out-damage imposter by a comfortable margin + you do literally nothing ever after knock off, which the majority of special walls are carrying. tera dragon energy is kind of stupid but, what do you know, tera ban means tera dragon energy can't exist. do not think this is a problem.

as i said above with the 90% usage, zac-c is probably our next suspect vote (even though there's no guarantees, it's by far the most likely). immunity lottery is never fun and the starkly different counterplay for each set is kind of dumb, but i personally don't want to kick out the biggest pillar of the meta and say "what you gonna do about it, it's gone because we said so" with a QB vote. zac being gone might also nerf GT twofold, as GT loses its best abuser and ooze is a lot harder to justify - zac-c is like last gen etern where it can just run any ability it wants, and so is the premier ooze abuser, but the other choices (slaking and groudon) have to both sit with the opportunity cost and run fringe-at-best sets just to deny sap.

also i've already outlined this but GT being banned does literally nothing to fur coat being every team - the only change is that double FC is maybe seen a bit less. the meta just has far too much physical offense (even without GT) to let teams viably drop FC.
 
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I'm just here to post the team I used for the Tera suspect

Hit Until Death Do Us
:arceus-ghost: :eternatus: :palafin-hero: :zacian-crowned: :corviknight: :groudon:

Description : Hyper offense with sniper palapin

How to use : You must play aggressively for this team in order to make a hole in the opposing team, and then get your winconds in a good spot to sweep. Eternatus is a Suicide Gambit, you want to use it, mostly on menaces to your team, like to set up Miraidon / Palkia / Arceus.
This team cannot handle any type of set up, like Simple Ghost Ceus, so it will be necessary to set up your wincond before your opponent does.

Weaknesses : The main issue of this team is the lacking of defensive answer, most of the threat can't be handled, but like I said before, with this team you want to win before opponent do it

Potential modification : To break through some Fur coat Dragon, like Eternatus or Dialgia-O, you can use an Ice / Ground Move on Palapin over wicked blow. You can also play Jungle Healing over Strength Sap on Ghost-Ceus, to prevent status that can stop your chance to sweep, but you will have less potential to heal

Effectiveness : Work really well on ladder, get a 30-0 on ladder during the Tera suspect
I didn't save replay a lot during the ladder session, but here is one to show you how the team work : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1814901396-c42ilijvlwnzc3cw73kxu43bqxfb3sdpw
 

Tea Guzzler

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I'd like to formally make complaints against two moves in National Dex BH: Fishious Rend and Population Bomb. Why is this? Well, I may be new to the metagame, but I have my reasons.

Fishious Rend: Simple reason. Bolt Beak is banned, so why isn't Fishious Rend? They accomplish the exact same thing, except Fishious Rend is actually more powerful due to Water's Type coverage being greater than Electric. This can also be broken when paired with a move like Victory Dance.

Population Bomb: Two words: Skill Link. With Skill Link and a Wide Lens, this move basically functions as a guaranteed KO. I may be wrong on the Skill Link count, (still relatively new to Pokemon,) but the fact remains that this move could be very broken.

But, then again, I suck at this format. What do I know?
this is not the thread for national dex bh
this is
 
While this post summarizes the issues with the meta essentially perfectly, I thought I add a bit more as well. The boost from Gorilla Tactics is so large in many cases that even Fur Coat Pokemon are finding themselves increasingly relying on Strength Sap just to survive. While there's nothing per-say a problem with the move itself: It's a solid all-around choice, when something as exploitable as Strength Sap is a requirement to stay alive even for the bulkiest Fur Coat Pokemon it's evident there is an issue. As a result of folks realizing that even on multi-Fur Coat teams, Strength Sap is essentially a requirement to live a lot of hits long-term from Gorilla Tactics you see the increase of Pokemon like Chansey and the spike in abilities like Liquid Ooze and Good As Gold to severe that lifeline. And once that lifeline is severed it becomes comically easy to shatter even cores with 2 or more Fur Coat pokemon.

Here's an example of that in action:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1805894787-kyh91a9oto4ec565vhepb7o5j047gyqpw .

In this case, my opponent using a typical Fur Coat core was done for no matter how they built their team. If they didn't have Strength Sap on their pokemon wouldn't be able to survive my Slakings moves for long. If they do they equally have lost because I have a way to block their healing. As put more eloquently by Tzaur, Gorilla tactics and Zacian should've been banned ages ago. And I would take it even further to say there is much more tiering action that needs to be done to make physical offense reasonable to manage.
Reading this post had made me have some character development recently. When I started playing G9BH, I initially thought that Gorilla Tactics was a moderately reasonable ability. Boy was I wrong.

Gorilla Tactics, combined with Choice Band, is one of the heaviest hitting combinations in the current metagame. Even without boosts from STAB or tera-typing, a solid Gorilla Band attacker deals around 40% per hit. Without access to long term healing, as seen in G8BH, many teams have come to rely on Strength Sap as a way to decrease damage from Gorilla Band as well as heal themselves a considerably amount. While Gorilla Band itself is powerful, it is not completely broken. However, the fact that it nearly mandates Strength Sap on defensive Pokemon creates an very unhealthy gameplay. The need for for Strength Sap gives Gorilla Band teams leverage to counter Strength Sap tanks, via Liquid Ooze and deny any healing.

Overall, Gorilla Band Ooze is a very potent weapon and on offensively focused teams. It has the ability to shred through opposing teams and force tanks to destroy themselves. I'd like to affirm Onyx's statement that uncontrolled use of Gorilla Tactics is a disaster waiting to happen and will cause issues down the line.

Here is a team I made simply to exploit the synergies of Gorilla Band Ooze: Team
(I merged Groudon and Slacking into Ursaluna and added a Prankster Giratina, but the results should be the same regardless)

By using Gorrila Band to knock out most Pokemon and Ooze to knock out any remaining tanks, you can often create a one-sided match up. Below are some replays I've gathered experimenting with this team. I think the most outstanding battle is when my opponent used both Strength Sap AND Shore Up as a way to out-counter by Liquid Ooze counter.

Countering Strength Sap w/ Ooze
Ooze KOs both Tank Dozo and Ghostceus During Heal
Ghostceus Ooze Counter
Part 2 of Battle Above Where Sap and Shore Up Used Together, also Water Horse OP
Gorilla Band Sweeping
More Gorilla Band Sweeping

Unfortunately, I encounter more low ELO players who didn't know that Strength Sap was a move, so I have no more battles to share.
 
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Tea Guzzler

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:sm/slaking:
slaking is something i've been experimenting with a lot lately. this mostly comes off the back of pop bomb and tinkering with which set gets the most use out of it, which is important for navigating normal-type's relative drawbacks (there's a steel on every team, ghostceus just exists, most fur coat mons still firm one and sap to full). i've basically come to a conclusion:

when running pop bomb slaking, you have multiple desirable aspects - accuracy boosting, helmet immunity, and speed boosting. you essentially need to pick 2 guaranteed ones, and have the other one either not exist (in the case of speed boosting) or be vulnerable to knock. if you want mold breaker, assuming you have half a brain cell and take guaranteed accuracy, you can only have one of helmet immunity or speed boosting (coil + pads or victory + lens).

below this there's also some additional tradeoffs, the main one of which is choosing whether to beat ghost-types (toxic) or zac (v-create or blades). slaking's main issue in this regard is that you only have one moveslot for flexibility - 3 are already spend on setup, pop bomb, and recovery. this 4MSS severely limits its ability to run through the majority of teams (who are more likely to be using zac/arc-ghost) and essentially relegates slaking to a fat mauler, as these bulkier styles typically lack arceus-ghost.

this isn't to say that slaking is unviable because the conditions need to be perfect - slaking without a really hard counter is a threat and a half. if you have a fur coat wall that's weakened from something else you can expect slaking to clean it up mostly without issue, and midgrounding a boosted slaking with some bulky neutral mon is basically not happening. it might be easier then to think of slaking as a cleaner that needs a little team support to break past pop bomb resists/immunes (of which there honestly aren't many). some of the best success i've had has been with mold breaker teammates like zac-c and groudon, as the former can just break past them with some chip (either from toxic slaking or from spikes) and the latter can set up and KO lesser ones or toxic/knock the rest (and also bypasses a would-be wall in EE zac), with both significantly pressuring slak's hardest check in arceus-ghost.

tl;dr - slaking is a fat mauler by default, but you need to make tradeoffs between speed and helmet immunity + need team support against common bulky mons.
 

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So I think the meta's still in a sticky position with both phys offense and bulky setup being overbearing, and we don't really have a good solution to the latter. Fixing physical offense is generally achieveable with stuff like a Zac-C or GT ban and i'm not really concerned about this. The main issue with bulky setup stuff is that there's no one thing you can isolate that will fix the issue - QD ban doesn't do much when a theorized Zac-C ban leaves only 2 relevant mons outspeeding Arceus and Eternatus, a Judgment ban doesn't magically allow Imposter to be consistent counterplay options, and a complex "If you have FurScals you can't have setup" is obviously off the table. Freeing offensive stuff like Caly-S or Contrary to give more options for pressuring fat also isn't likely to be a healthy change (or, in most instances, work).

What if SAC is the solution?
For the uninitiated, SAC stands for Single Ability Clause, and it does what it says on the tin - teams are only allowed one of each ability (accounting for clones like Mold Breaker/Teravolt/Turboblaze). This is what AAA currently uses. In theory, SAC fixes the setup issue since teams are hard-limited to one Fur Coat and one Ice Scales user, meaning that it's no longer possible to stack setup mons with the same ability and there's more opportunity cost in using your one FurScales slot in a Quiver Dancer. Additionally, this is in the majority of cases only impacting FurScales, as few other teams want to run 2 copies of an ability - the only real exceptions being double Imposter on stall and double Mold Breaker on offense (I use last one a good bit, but not widespread - you could argue GT here but we're probably taking action on it in the near future). As such, SAC seems like a decent possible solution to the problem, especially given that alternative physical walling abilities (Tablets of Ruin and Fluffy) don't have anywhere near the same potency or consistency (and thus won't be suitable alternatives) and the other special walls (RegenVest and Chansey) by their nature can't set up.

However, SAC isn't a perfect solution - stall in particular loses out, as options for both double Imposter and double FurScales are kicked out. This also has the impact of exacerbating the physical/special power gap even if GT gets axed, as teams can still fit 2 special walls even if only one can set up - for physical attackers, your only real options are a Fur Coat and then a bulky Prankster, which may simply be inefficient and also comes with the implications of running something like Prankster Dondozo. This also doesn't remove FurScales setup from the meta entirely, rather it just prevents teams from spamming a load of them, however this can be both an upside and a downside depending on how you look at it.

I would greatly encourage community input on either the above propositions or any that you come up with. I'm not really sure on many other potential ways that we can approach the issue simply because there are so many factors to blame (but none are themselves substantial). I'm not keen on individual mon bans, as I think people will just innovate and come up with banlist replacements that are only slightly less obnoxious, however this isn't off the table.


Also, sidenote because it will probably come up from someone not clued in to the tier, we can't ban FurScales. Just by the nature of BH alone we'd have to axe basically everything above C on the VR just to have an acceptable post-FurScales power pevel, and basically invalidating the current tier just to fix FurScales is a less-than-elegant solution.
 
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Haven't posted in a while since there have been so many rapid changes to the meta, both as a result of fast bans and the meta evolving in response.

The meta is fine right now, even with tera imo. It's a nice mix of teambuilding skills and good in-battle decisions being rewarded currently. Yes, you are going to be surprised by good teams and unexpected strategies every once in a while in high ladder. That's part of Pokemon after all and even more so in a diverse meta like BH. Offense does have to come up with some unorthodox strategies to overcome the sheer monstrous bulk of furscales while also being severely limited by the need to improof your team while also needing a way to get rid of unaware tanks that can reverse sweep you with their own setup moves. So it's no surprise that Gtactics has gained some popularity over the past few weeks since it can meet all the requirements listed above.

Gtactics Band Zacian is probably the only real threat offense has left at this point in the meta and it's a gimmick at best which still needs a surprise tera to give it a chance against fur coaters who will still only take around 40-50% per hit in a best case scenario. So you need a great understanding of the meta as well as good scouting and prediction abilities and a one time only gen 9 mechanic to make the most of Gtactics. Meanwhile, all the opponent needs is just one good knock off or will-o-wisp predict and that's it. Game over for you. It's similar to the Palkia-O conundrum.

Yes, Palkia-O is indeed a monster but it is still very easily hard walled and loses most of its Dragon Energy power after just a little bit of chip damage. Without a Specs Boosted 150 Power Dragon energy, there isn't much it can do. Sure you can run some QDance sets but those just don't pack the same punch and you often lose momentum trying to make it work.
There are plenty of ways to deal with Palkia-O that aren't too restrictive in teambuilding. Also you can just run Zacian-C to kill it first which is what most people do in high ladder anyway.

Tera seems like it's probably going to get banned which will further neuter offensive playstyles. I don't think there should be any more excuses left for losing to offense after that ban goes through. Funnily enough, Zacian-C does better as a counter to offense than it does on actual offensive strategies, so I don't think it merits any suspecting especially if the tera ban goes through. I often see what would be stall teams that replace one of their mons with Zacian-C solely for killing slower threats to their tanks such as Palkia-O which is honestly pretty smart.

Also I feel like imposter chansey has been forgotten recently despite being one of the single best mons in the entire meta game. I don't see it too much anymore but it is a great way to gain some momentum and force some switches, if not outright win the game if you copy the right mon.

At some point you just have to let the meta settle and learn to adapt properly.
 
So I think the meta's still in a sticky position with both phys offense and bulky setup being overbearing, and we don't really have a good solution to the latter. Fixing physical offense is generally achieveable with stuff like a Zac-C or GT ban and i'm not really concerned about this. The main issue with bulky setup stuff is that there's no one thing you can isolate that will fix the issue - QD ban doesn't do much when a theorized Zac-C ban leaves only 2 relevant mons outspeeding Arceus and Eternatus, a Judgment ban doesn't magically allow Imposter to be consistent counterplay options, and a complex "If you have FurScals you can't have setup" is obviously off the table. Freeing offensive stuff like Caly-S or Contrary to give more options for pressuring fat also isn't likely to be a healthy change (or, in most instances, work).

What if SAC is the solution?
For the uninitiated, SAC stands for Single Ability Clause, and it does what it says on the tin - teams are only allowed one of each ability (accounting for clones like Mold Breaker/Teravolt/Turboblaze). This is what AAA currently uses. In theory, SAC fixes the setup issue since teams are hard-limited to one Fur Coat and one Ice Scales user, meaning that it's no longer possible to stack setup mons with the same ability and there's more opportunity cost in using your one FurScales slot in a Quiver Dancer. Additionally, this is in the majority of cases only impacting FurScales, as few other teams want to run 2 copies of an ability - the only real exceptions being double Imposter on stall and double Mold Breaker on offense (I use last one a good bit, but not widespread - you could argue GT here but we're probably taking action on it in the near future). As such, SAC seems like a decent possible solution to the problem, especially given that alternative physical walling abilities (Tablets of Ruin and Fluffy) don't have anywhere near the same potency or consistency (and thus won't be suitable alternatives) and the other special walls (RegenVest and Chansey) by their nature can't set up.

However, SAC isn't a perfect solution - stall in particular loses out, as options for both double Imposter and double FurScales are kicked out. This also has the impact of exacerbating the physical/special power gap even if GT gets axed, as teams can still fit 2 special walls even if only one can set up - for physical attackers, your only real options are a Fur Coat and then a bulky Prankster, which may simply be inefficient and also comes with the implications of running something like Prankster Dondozo. This also doesn't remove FurScales setup from the meta entirely, rather it just prevents teams from spamming a load of them, however this can be both an upside and a downside depending on how you look at it.

I would greatly encourage community input on either the above propositions or any that you come up with. I'm not really sure on many other potential ways that we can approach the issue simply because there are so many factors to blame (but none are themselves substantial). I'm not keen on individual mon bans, as I think people will just innovate and come up with banlist replacements that are only slightly less obnoxious, however this isn't off the table.


Also, sidenote because it will probably come up from someone not clued in to the tier, we can't ban FurScales. Just by the nature of BH alone we'd have to axe basically everything above C on the VR just to have an acceptable post-FurScales power pevel, and basically invalidating the current tier just to fix FurScales is a less-than-elegant solution.
I played BH last gens but not SV because the meta doesn't feel appealing to me in terms of fun, diversity in the builder and balance somehow. However this feeling has been built by watching games allowing me to not completely be subjective. Also I'm expert in bulky setup issue and how to solve it as SS Camo player :sunglasses: But still take everything I'm saying with a grain of salt ofc.


First, from what I've read, it seems there's an overall agreement that the current metagame isn't really satisfying and actions should take place to try improving it. The terastallization suspect test is obviously a step in the right direction but, in case tera gets banned, I don't think it will significantly help with the bulky setup issue (although it will help because tera is another great tool for bulky setup).

Bulky setup issue is often tricky to deal with because it arises from a combination of great stats and/or typing, ability designed to reduce setup counterplay (Furscales and immunity mainly) combined to strong setup moves. The issue is that, usually, none are really broken on their own but starts to be when associated together.

I think trying the way of banning the best abusers is futile in BH because, they are just so many options that can try bulky setup because, after all, any bulky enough mon has access to bulky setup tools: abilities and setup moves. Considering that, what to do now? Obviously, this is a tricky question and I certainly do not claim to have THE solution (guessing it exists).

*Here are some avenues to explore:
* some are usual, some aren't, some are weird but I think it's good to put everything on the table.

**Single Ability Clause: Just see Tea Guzzler's post above to understand how it could help with the bulky setup issue. I do think it can help but it should definitely by accompanied by a ban of Gorilla Tactics in my opinion due to this imbalance between physically defensive answer (FC mainly) and specially defensive ones (Ice Scales + RegenVest). However, let's be real, it will help with the bulky setup issue due to choices that will have to be made in the builder but will certainly not entirely fix the issue as Tea recognized himself.
** Notice that SAC is a safe bet because even if, ultimately, it doesn't solve the issue of bulky setup, it's a positive change imo enablening diversity by removing FC core, pillars of bulky setup fat teams. So I think we can always combine it to the below other proposals for change.

Open the teambuilder by removing overbearing things allowing to fit more counterplay to bulky setup:

:zacian-crowned: I can understand argument saying this one isn't broken on its own but tbh it feels overwhelming while completely wrapping the whole metagame around it and this is probably enough to consider it as too unhealthy for the metagame and ban it. The simple existence of this mon and GT exerts a tremendous pressure in the builder.

:palkia-origin: Let's be real, if we end up banning Palkia-O, it will always be possible to replicate the set with regular Palkia considering 100 Spe is still pretty decent and QD makes it faster than anything anw. However I do believe banning this mon could be positive for the metagame by creating more offensive counterplay to the Choice Specs set. But yeah, BoR QD Strengh Sap will still exist.

:miraidon: I can't believe GF creates a mon which is naturally BH material without much changes lol. The sheer power of this thing is quite absurb and another immense restriction in the teambuilder being so powerful and so fast. It practically forces an Ice Scales Ground or Dialga-O/Goodra-H Regenvest from my knowledge.

:arceus:
Ghost: I saw people talked a lot about Palkia-O, Zacian-C and even Miraidon but when it comes to bulky setup, this is THE beast to slaugther. Arceus-Ghost is naturally immune to trapping strat and Imposter making it an incredible bulky setup abuser. Ghost is a broken type both defensively and offensively allowing to run ability like Fur Coat to make it a potent bulky setup user or Normalize Entrainment denying counterplay like phazing. It can also run Jungle Healing effectively to remove Poison or yellow magic counterplay. Overall you need pretty unique answer to this thing and that's the reason it feels really unhealthy to me. I've also seen set like Simple No-Retreat with Combat Torque/Low Kick destroying Dialga-O and winning quite easily. Not to mention we're sometimes forced to run Ability Shield or Spooky Plate Imposter for it (and Flutter Mane) which is definitely a proof of how threatening this thing is.

Ban Quiver Dance and Victory Dance: Atm there's no doubt these moves are involved in the issue of bulky setup. They both provide power, speed and bulk virtually creating monsters with almost no weaknesses when paired with Fur Coat or Ice Scales. I think it will definitely impact a lot the bulky setup by allowing more counterplay, either abusing the lack of speed boost either the lack of bulk. Combined to SAC, I think it resolves for sure the issue but even without it will be a big step forward and potentially enough.

Those are the main reflexion avenues to me but here some elements we can also take into account:

Strengh Sap: This healing move stands above the other this generation by keeping 16pp. It's often involves in bulky setup issue because it works perfectly with moves like Quiver Dance. If you're fast enough (see Xerneas last gen), you can use it to prevent revenge killing or to come on powerful hits such as Groudon's Headlong Rush if you avoid the OHKO. This move opens the door to special non-FC bulky setup like Palkia-O, Miraidon or Arceus. Being this powerful people started to run Liquid Ooze with the sole purpose of taking advantage of this move (which is a dumb uncompetitive fish reminding me a bit Innards Out tbh). Removing it could allow to bruteforce setup sweepers abusing Mold Breaker things for instance. Because recovery will be limited to 8pp it will be easier to pressure bulky setup mon while limiting their power.

Substitute/Taunt: Because Poison Heal is gone, Toxic is now free to exist in BH as setup control. However this counterplay completely falls when it comes to Substitute and Taunt (you can deal with Heal Bell and Jungle Healing/Lunar Blessing long terms). Both also abuses some typical setup counterplay like phazing, Haze, Nuzzle, etc.

Free Neutralising Gas (SAC mandatory): I talked about this with Tea few months ago when Poison Heal started to be overwhelming in BH. This ability is probably great offensively (that's a better Mold Breaker in fact) and defensively (offers help against various threats by nullifying abilities like Gtactics, -ate, BoR/SoR, Hadron Engine/Orichalcum Pulse, etc). I'm concerned about how good/bad this is to cancel Imposter, Prankster and Regen though. Probably a double edged sword but I recognize I wasn't completely convinced by Tea's explanations last time on how it's really broken/unhealthy.

Will probably be my sole and last contribution to SV BH but hope it helps a bit the BH council. Looking forward to see changes so maybe I will enjoy watching BH again. Cheers :heart:
 
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Tea Guzzler

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I feel like we really shouldn't need to be discussing this so long after its introduction, but introducing Neutralizing Gas is about as bad of a decision as removing Species Clause and flooding the tier with Arceus. In my opinion this is one of the most guaranteed ways to instantly kill the meta.

Offensively, NG is a nightmare. It's a better Mold Breaker, sure, but it turns off all of the counterplay to standard Mold Breaker threats in Prankster and Imposter users. This essentially creates unplayable scenarios where attackers can boost quite literally without consequence and your only method of counterplay is Ability Shield spam or simply hoping you live a hit to Haze the boosts, neither of which are consistent and healthy. SAC doesn't magically fix the issue either, as with it in place you're still playing a lottery of what's running Neutralizing Gas but there's a higher opportunity cost to running Ability Shield and you can still get easily fished if you just load the wrong thing. Mold Breaker stuff is already not a check to boosted threats since they outspeed and either OHKO or nullify with Sap, and NG doesn't change this. Overall, it offers 0 upsides and makes playing around any user unbearable, sometimes impossible if you don't have a naturally perfect matchup.

Defensively, NG is just... pointless? FurScales offers at worst the same bulk as NG against Orichalcum Pulse, and at best better bulk into everything else (which includes -ate abilities). This offers nothing to fix the issue and would never be used.

TL;DR - We're never even considering freeing Neutralizing Gas. It offers no upsides to the meta and mutliple downsides which make it near unplayable.
 
So I think the meta's still in a sticky position with both phys offense and bulky setup being overbearing, and we don't really have a good solution to the latter. Fixing physical offense is generally achieveable with stuff like a Zac-C or GT ban and i'm not really concerned about this. The main issue with bulky setup stuff is that there's no one thing you can isolate that will fix the issue - QD ban doesn't do much when a theorized Zac-C ban leaves only 2 relevant mons outspeeding Arceus and Eternatus, a Judgment ban doesn't magically allow Imposter to be consistent counterplay options, and a complex "If you have FurScals you can't have setup" is obviously off the table. Freeing offensive stuff like Caly-S or Contrary to give more options for pressuring fat also isn't likely to be a healthy change (or, in most instances, work).

What if SAC is the solution?
For the uninitiated, SAC stands for Single Ability Clause, and it does what it says on the tin - teams are only allowed one of each ability (accounting for clones like Mold Breaker/Teravolt/Turboblaze). This is what AAA currently uses. In theory, SAC fixes the setup issue since teams are hard-limited to one Fur Coat and one Ice Scales user, meaning that it's no longer possible to stack setup mons with the same ability and there's more opportunity cost in using your one FurScales slot in a Quiver Dancer. Additionally, this is in the majority of cases only impacting FurScales, as few other teams want to run 2 copies of an ability - the only real exceptions being double Imposter on stall and double Mold Breaker on offense (I use last one a good bit, but not widespread - you could argue GT here but we're probably taking action on it in the near future). As such, SAC seems like a decent possible solution to the problem, especially given that alternative physical walling abilities (Tablets of Ruin and Fluffy) don't have anywhere near the same potency or consistency (and thus won't be suitable alternatives) and the other special walls (RegenVest and Chansey) by their nature can't set up.

However, SAC isn't a perfect solution - stall in particular loses out, as options for both double Imposter and double FurScales are kicked out. This also has the impact of exacerbating the physical/special power gap even if GT gets axed, as teams can still fit 2 special walls even if only one can set up - for physical attackers, your only real options are a Fur Coat and then a bulky Prankster, which may simply be inefficient and also comes with the implications of running something like Prankster Dondozo. This also doesn't remove FurScales setup from the meta entirely, rather it just prevents teams from spamming a load of them, however this can be both an upside and a downside depending on how you look at it.

I would greatly encourage community input on either the above propositions or any that you come up with. I'm not really sure on many other potential ways that we can approach the issue simply because there are so many factors to blame (but none are themselves substantial). I'm not keen on individual mon bans, as I think people will just innovate and come up with banlist replacements that are only slightly less obnoxious, however this isn't off the table.


Also, sidenote because it will probably come up from someone not clued in to the tier, we can't ban FurScales. Just by the nature of BH alone we'd have to axe basically everything above C on the VR just to have an acceptable post-FurScales power pevel, and basically invalidating the current tier just to fix FurScales is a less-than-elegant solution.
I would like to say single ability clause basically killed all defensive playstyles in aaa, and culled 3/4 of potentially viable mons by taking away regen cores, this in combination with the healing nerf and dex cuts makes only a few mons viable, greatly reduces team and mon diversity, and it's the last thing that bh or aaa needs to be fun to play

if someone wants to run 6 regen mons or 6 fur coat mons or 6 gtactics mons that's part of the fun of pokemon and oms, bh in particular, you're allowed to specialize your team to a certain objective, regardless of the viability of the strategy, currently my bh teams would fit within sac but I think that takes a lot of the fun out of the game
 
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Tea Guzzler

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Hi! We have a few announcements.
First, Tera suspect ended in DNB, you can see the votes here.

Secondly... Zacian-Crowned and Quiver Dance are banned from BH!
Tea GuzzlerquojovaChessking345XxLazzerpenguinxXTTTech
Zacian-CrownedBanBanBanDo Not BanBan
Quiver DanceBanBanBanDo Not BanBan

:zacian-crowned: Zacian-C doesn't need much explanation, as it's been the face of the tier the entire generation. It was allowed to remain unrestricted thanks to its BST reduction, however that time has come to a close. Its main issue was having an absurd amount of sets, both offensive and defensive, to the point that countering all of them is simply not possible and games essentially become a lottery of which Zacian-C you're up against. This isn't helped by the massive variety within these archetypes, such as having to play around an unknown Immunity ability on Substitute sets or guessing which Choice Band coverage it had, and the fact that you would often have to guess this without prior scouting was ultimately not healthy. The 90% usage rate on the ladder last month is also an undesirable amount of centralization for a modern tier.

:volcarona: Quiver Dance has had a bumpy ride. The main purpose of this ban is to address the issue of bulky boosters being impossible to stave off long-term, chief culprits being things like Arceus-Ghost, Eternatus, and Arceus-Ground (and probably a lot more Arceus formes that people will have used at some point). With Quiver Dance gone, these are now unable to boost Speed and offensive potential at the same time, so should be easier to handle over the course of a game. This ban also scales back the potential of some dangerous threats, such as Palkia-O and Miraidon, so they should also be easier to deal with. Tera remaining unbanned ultimately means that a would-be limiting factor for them isn't place, so this was the action we settled on to limit abusers over Single Ability Clause. This is a pretty unprecented change for BH so things will be quite different to any other generation.

Here's our current watchlist for the immediate future:

:miraidon: Miraidon will likely regain its prominence as a premier special attacker thanks to Zacian-C's ban, meaning it isn't constantly competing on Speed and now has a newfound boosting option in Nasty Plot. It can also stick with its regular Choice Specs set and still gain the same benefits, notably outspeeding and scaring out most Arceus formes (as they can't readily boost Speed - any that are, such as No Retreat Arceus-Ghost or Tidy Up Arceus-Ground, you don't have any business with anyway).

:palkia-origin: We didn't vote on Palkia-O as it intersected heavily with the Quiver Dance vote. QD being gone hopefully limits its instant sweeping potential, however with Tera still legal and a still-incredible offensive profile, sets like SimplePlot or Mold Breaker are something to watch out for and we'll be keeping an eye on them.

:darmanitan-galar: We didn't vote on Gorilla Tactics as it intersected heavily with the Zacian-C vote. The majority of complaints about GT were specifically targeted at GT Zacian-C, which would make our votes misrepresentative of the ability itself and more skewed towards Zacian-C as an abuser. We'll be keeping a close eye on how well this does on other attackers, as none can match both of Zacian-C's Speed and Attack.

Tagging Kris to implement.
 

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