christ no, its literally just better bax, who is already terrifying enough
AND loaded dice is a thing now so icicle spear is actually really threatening, fuck that idea lol
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
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AND loaded dice is a thing now so icicle spear is actually really threatening, fuck that idea lol
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
If nobody stops talking about legendary and Family guy tier jokes, I'm gonna start openly theorymon about, just move on to another topic please
last warning
I honestly think having this kind of discussion is pretty fun. Talking about borderline cases like Darkrai, Zamazenta, Giratina, or what have you is a decent change of pace. Maybe we can do a Gods Among Us Tour when HOME comes out to get a bit more data on Zama or Giratina when they come out.
Besides, unless Zama does not make the initial banlist, we would not be having this conversation again for a while. Home is going to nuke the tier with viable mons, and we will have a couple of bans to muscle through depending on the initial banlist. I can think of plenty of worrisome things dropping in HOME that I would be more concerned about than Zama, be it testing it or if its in the tier.
To TLDR Uber Stuff
Zama is the most likely test, if Darkrai comes back it is also worth a look, Giratina A is a little spooky but might not be the worst
TLDR Home Stuff
Last Respects please leave, Lando will be broken as always, Magearna Urshifu and Spectrier will be dumb as hell again and probs banworthy, maybe Eleki Enamourus I and Ursaluna might be scary.
Alright then, you asked for it
Abilitys
Overgrowth: At 1/3 or less of its max HP, this Pokémon's offensive stat is 1.5x with Grass attacks.
Bulletproof (HA): This Pokémon is immune to bullet moves.
STATS
88 HP
107 Atk
122 Def
74 SpA
75 SpD
64 Spe
Moves of interest
Body Press
Bulk Up
Close Combat
Curse
Drain Punch
Earthquake
Iron Defense
Leech Seed
Spikes
Spiky Shield
Super Fang
Synthesis
Taunt
Tera Blast
Wood Hammer
Pros:
1) its access to spikes + a grass type lets it keep them up against the pretty common Great Tusk, the rare iron treads and the even rarer Quaquaval
2) while statistically outclassed by Dondozo as a pure physical wall thanks to Unaware, its typing, ability and move pool allows it fullfill the niche different enough, Dondozo for example cannot check Breloom, while Chesnaught walls anything except a tera fire tera blast, Chesnaught also packs reliable recovery in moves like Leech Seed, Drain Punch and Synthesis, while Dondozo is forced to use rest, Chesnaught also does stuff like naturally forcing Kingambit to tera to not die to Drain punch, and not only decently walls Dragonite, but keeps it from tera normal
3) Bulletproof allows chesnaugth to pivot in specific attacks, like shadow balls, focus blasts, aura spheres, sludge bombs, pyro ball etc., giving the team certain defensive utility
4) Grass/Fighting gives it valuable resistances to Water, Electric, Grass, Ground, Rock and Dark
Cons:
1) Chesnaught is a much more specific mon, for bulky teams, offensive teams would rather use Meowscarada as a Spikes user with grass typing, that has similar utility to chesnaught, but It's much faster. Dondozo, is a general blank check to most physical set up sweepers
2) While a good physical defensive mon, its typing leaves it vulnerable to Flying types, allowing mons like Corviknight and Talonflame to easily counter him and defogging his hazards away
3) its special defense is bad, plain and simple, and while grass/fighting gives it common resistances, its weaknesses to fire, ice, psychic, poison and fairy cannot be ignored
tera potential:
Steel: Since it's a defensive mon, you only really want to tera it into Steel, but steel allows it to flip the scrip on most typings, it not only resists flying, ice, poison, psychic and fairy, but it keeps the Grass and Rock resistances and gains much more
potential sets:
1) Spikes setter
Chesnaught @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Drain Punch
- Wood Hammer
- Synthesis/Taunt/Leech seed/Spiky Shield
28 Spe to out speed 0 spe Corviknight and Skeledirge, the rest of the eves are to maximize bulk. As for its moves, spikes are always a valuable niche in any meta, Drain Punch allows it to keep itself healthy while brawling with mons that resist grass like Roaring Moon, Orthworm, Kingambit and meowscaradas that lack play rough, Wood Hammer is a good stab option to hit great tusk, water types, both options hit Garganacl for SE damage. Its last move can be varied, Taunt allows it to have interesting utility alongside spikes, leech seed allows it to ruin attackers thanks to the health drain, Spiky shield allows for chesnaught to have a protect that also punishes physical attackers, Synthesis is weather dependent but overall decent recovery option, especially with sun being a staple of the meta. Rocky Helmet allows chesnaught to punish attempts at attacking him, this is recommended when running Synthesis or Taunt, Leftovers are always a good recovery option, especially combined with Leech seed or Spiky Shield
2) Garganacl type sweeper?
Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Steel/Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 228 SpD / 28 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up/Curse/Iron Defense
- Body Press/Drain Punch
- Synthesis
- Earthquake/Wood Hammer
This set takes a more offensive approach, like garganacl does it right now, thanks to the new Body press on his arsenal, alongside Bulk Up/Curse/Iron Defense, Synthesis, while overall worse than Recover, but It's still a good way to stay on the fight, Drain Punch is more damage dependent but can work with the attack boosts if running Bulk up or Curse, making it a decent side grade of Body Press, Drain Punch is also something that Garganacl lacks. The last move goes to either Earthquake or Wood Hammer, as ways to hit Ghost types, and both have different targets. The eves are for maximum survivability overall. tera steel is a good option for defense, BUT, tera Ghost allows chesnaught to do a good amount of trolling with tera ghost curse, but this is a more risky version of the set
Closing thoughts:
While not a flashy mon at all and filled with flaws that cannot be denied, its combination of tools lets him have a potential interesting niche in the meta that no other mon can replicate, so give the spiky boy a try. Thank you for reading
Abilitys
Overgrowth: At 1/3 or less of its max HP, this Pokémon's offensive stat is 1.5x with Grass attacks.
Bulletproof (HA): This Pokémon is immune to bullet moves.
STATS
88 HP
107 Atk
122 Def
74 SpA
75 SpD
64 Spe
Moves of interest
Body Press
Bulk Up
Close Combat
Curse
Drain Punch
Earthquake
Iron Defense
Leech Seed
Spikes
Spiky Shield
Super Fang
Synthesis
Taunt
Tera Blast
Wood Hammer
Pros:
1) its access to spikes + a grass type lets it keep them up against the pretty common Great Tusk, the rare iron treads and the even rarer Quaquaval
2) while statistically outclassed by Dondozo as a pure physical wall thanks to Unaware, its typing, ability and move pool allows it fullfill the niche different enough, Dondozo for example cannot check Breloom, while Chesnaught walls anything except a tera fire tera blast, Chesnaught also packs reliable recovery in moves like Leech Seed, Drain Punch and Synthesis, while Dondozo is forced to use rest, Chesnaught also does stuff like naturally forcing Kingambit to tera to not die to Drain punch, and not only decently walls Dragonite, but keeps it from tera normal
3) Bulletproof allows chesnaugth to pivot in specific attacks, like shadow balls, focus blasts, aura spheres, sludge bombs, pyro ball etc., giving the team certain defensive utility
4) Grass/Fighting gives it valuable resistances to Water, Electric, Grass, Ground, Rock and Dark
Cons:
1) Chesnaught is a much more specific mon, for bulky teams, offensive teams would rather use Meowscarada as a Spikes user with grass typing, that has similar utility to chesnaught, but It's much faster. Dondozo, is a general blank check to most physical set up sweepers
2) While a good physical defensive mon, its typing leaves it vulnerable to Flying types, allowing mons like Corviknight and Talonflame to easily counter him and defogging his hazards away
3) its special defense is bad, plain and simple, and while grass/fighting gives it common resistances, its weaknesses to fire, ice, psychic, poison and fairy cannot be ignored
tera potential:
Steel: Since it's a defensive mon, you only really want to tera it into Steel, but steel allows it to flip the scrip on most typings, it not only resists flying, ice, poison, psychic and fairy, but it keeps the Grass and Rock resistances and gains much more
potential sets:
1) Spikes setter
Chesnaught @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Drain Punch
- Wood Hammer
- Synthesis/Taunt/Leech seed/Spiky Shield
28 Spe to out speed 0 spe Corviknight and Skeledirge, the rest of the eves are to maximize bulk. As for its moves, spikes are always a valuable niche in any meta, Drain Punch allows it to keep itself healthy while brawling with mons that resist grass like Roaring Moon, Orthworm, Kingambit and meowscaradas that lack play rough, Wood Hammer is a good stab option to hit great tusk, water types, both options hit Garganacl for SE damage. Its last move can be varied, Taunt allows it to have interesting utility alongside spikes, leech seed allows it to ruin attackers thanks to the health drain, Spiky shield allows for chesnaught to have a protect that also punishes physical attackers, Synthesis is weather dependent but overall decent recovery option, especially with sun being a staple of the meta. Rocky Helmet allows chesnaught to punish attempts at attacking him, this is recommended when running Synthesis or Taunt, Leftovers are always a good recovery option, especially combined with Leech seed or Spiky Shield
2) Garganacl type sweeper?
Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Steel/Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 228 SpD / 28 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up/Curse/Iron Defense
- Body Press/Drain Punch
- Synthesis
- Earthquake/Wood Hammer
This set takes a more offensive approach, like garganacl does it right now, thanks to the new Body press on his arsenal, alongside Bulk Up/Curse/Iron Defense, Synthesis, while overall worse than Recover, but It's still a good way to stay on the fight, Drain Punch is more damage dependent but can work with the attack boosts if running Bulk up or Curse, making it a decent side grade of Body Press, Drain Punch is also something that Garganacl lacks. The last move goes to either Earthquake or Wood Hammer, as ways to hit Ghost types, and both have different targets. The eves are for maximum survivability overall. tera steel is a good option for defense, BUT, tera Ghost allows chesnaught to do a good amount of trolling with tera ghost curse, but this is a more risky version of the set
Closing thoughts:
While not a flashy mon at all and filled with flaws that cannot be denied, its combination of tools lets him have a potential interesting niche in the meta that no other mon can replicate, so give the spiky boy a try. Thank you for reading
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I have my doubts about Ursaluna, has to compete against Tusk and Lando as the bulky ground type, while Tusk provides spin support and Lando a ground inmmunity + intimidate, Ursaluna has a ghost inmmunity but I'm not sure if it is enough to justify running it over the other two. Also, it's speed is just awful, Diggersby with a better damage output + a priority move haven't been a consistent OU pick in the past gens, while Ursaluna even if has a better bulk doesn't have a way to solve its speed issue.
In fairness, Ursaluna's moreso lauded for how easily it mauls anything defensive thanks to its Guts set, while also having Status immunity once activated. Not being stopped by Burns or being able to turn a CB set nuclear using Toxic Spikes is notable.
252 Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mew: 363-427 (90 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Guts Ursaluna Headlong Rush vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mew: 310-366 (76.9 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Guts Ursaluna Headlong Rush vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mew: 466-549 (115.6 - 136.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (not common but not totally unrealistic as a scenario)
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mew: 274-325 (67.9 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mew: 297-349 (73.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It won't sweep teams or live long, but I see it as a less overbearing take on Gen 8
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Easily the most over-bearing mon OU has ever seen.
If it's not on the initial banlist I would be shocked. Baxcallibur is already really good and Kyruem-Black is just that on steroids.
I would compare Ursaluna to Conkeldurr in Gen 7, so pretty much a slow, bulky wallbreaker (even more so than the Clown), without the priority of course. I'll have to see the other unreleased mons to get an idea of how good it will be, but I think it'll be solid overall, perhaps better suited for BO and Balanced Teams (and maybe even Trick Room, if it makes a comeback).
These are the sets I was thinking about, and in particular I'd like to point out how decently the AV set handles Pult and Ghold, considering its Shadow Ball immunity and possibly even its Focus Blast immunity with Bulletproof.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Ursaluna: 199-235 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Ursaluna: 150-177 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
But this is just theorymonning anyways so it's kinda pointless
These are the sets I was thinking about, and in particular I'd like to point out how decently the AV set handles Pult and Ghold, considering its Shadow Ball immunity and possibly even its Focus Blast immunity with Bulletproof.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Ursaluna: 199-235 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Ursaluna: 150-177 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
But this is just theorymonning anyways so it's kinda pointless
if it still gets dragon dance, leave that shit in ubers where it belongs. even if it loses icicle spear, it doesn't need it this gen because tera blast
*un-tldrs your tldr*
i honestly don't know about zama. zama-h is too strong by ou standards—it's just way too bulky and strong to be that fast because it can actually use items. zama-c, on the other hand, would have been a lock for ou this gen. it was tested last gen and it's gotten worse because of the nerfs to its base stats and ability plus general power creep and lower knock off distribution making its knock off absorber role less important… is what i would say if it didn't now have access to the strongest ironpress in the game. that said, zama-c should definitely be tested. there are a lot of good answers to ironpress that have cropped up in response to garganacl, so who knows, body press might not be the game-changing trump card i think it'll be.
as for darkrai, i think there's been a case for retesting it ever since the dark void nerf, but gen 7 was a cesspool of brokemons that never got tested and darkrai hasn't existed since, so there's no real way to tell. something about a base 125 speed mon with access to hypnosis feels icky to me, though; as inconsistent as it is, sleep + setup is scary when the mon doing it is that fast and that strong. i'd be open to testing it but i'd also vote ban if it came to a vote.
you already know my thoughts on gira-a; i'm 100% in favor of testing that if and only if transfer moves don't come back. if it gets to keep toxic and defog, it can fuck right off back to ubers, especially since the meta would become a lot stallier (pex getting scald again, the pink blobs getting toxic/wish/teleport/heal bell back, etc) and it would not do well to insert giratina into that environment in particular
last respects should have been banned instead of houndstone to begin with, but the reason it wasn't is because the datamined movepool leaks are technically theorymonning—if you remember last gen, some stuff leaked that turned out to be wrong, like the tapus getting terrain-related dlc1 moves (thank god that was wrong, we'd have had to ban 3 of them) and azumarill getting high horsepower. these leaks were believed widely enough that they were coded into randbats. so we can't really be certain of anything until it comes out. that said, once last respects comes out on anything besides houndstone, it's 100% gone.
lando-i will be broken as always. lando-t will be great but not as oppressive as the last 3 gens because it competes for teamspace with tusk—they have different roles, but they share a lot of bad matchups.
if the movepool leaks are correct, magearna probably shouldn't even drop. there are certainly viable new answers to it—in particular, clodsire and skeledirge don't let it get away with much—but it fucking gets spikes and that is so unbelievably far from ok
urshifu got its move nerfed, so i'd be down to test it again, but i also feel like it's still banworthy. urshifu-rapid should probably also be suspected because tera exists and punching glove actually works on surging strikes.
spectrier and regieleki were specifically designed around not having coverage, but now tera blast exists. spectrier was broken even without tera blast so i see no way it stays in ou with it, and it should start in ubers just to make everyone's job easier. eleki will also likely be broken because hee hoo tera ice, but it's solely dependent on tera to do its job properly, which is a crutch we don't see on even stuff like garg, so i don't know. it's definitely getting a suspect test at minimum, though.
i'm uncertain how i feel about enamorus-i because there's literally nowhere to properly test it on ladder. sure, it's technically available in bh, but come on, no one's gonna run a legal set on any mon in bh, and it's available in randbats but that's... well, it's randbats. enamorus's performance in randbats isn't much of an indicator on how it can do in ou because the levels are all wonky and you can't build a team around it. that said, when i'm behind the wheel of it in randbats, it doesn't feel broken.
ursaluna i don't feel confident in saying is suspect-worthy either. just based on the stats, it's a scary breaker and it absolutely annihilates fat teams, but it's so damn slow and has less than zero recovery because guts. having your strongest move be walled by ghost really sucks in this meta, too. even with the bulk, it doesn't seem like its matchup against offense in general would be good enough to justify a suspect, but like enamorus there's no place to properly test it right now, so who knows
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A set up sweeper that fast shouldn't be underestimated, think in Spectrier, had some consistent walls but the Spectrier user could get around them, not saying that Zama can, but that speed is the main reason why I can see it being banned again since gives it options.
Also, Spectrier got Draining kiss so even without tera now it has coverage, kinda curious to see how it will do against Cloudsire.
the thing is, the only move iron defense boosts is body press, so zama-c has a harder time muscling through things that wall fighting than spectrier had muscling through things that wall ghost plus dark coverage. still, it's certainly capable of it because crunch hits ghosts and behemoth bash hits fairies. i can see it being broken, but i can also see it not being broken.
i genuinely agree with you on zama. its not even just that its fast, strong, it has good bulk as well. there isnt really anything bad about it that can be explicitly exploited. slap on a choice band and you have one of the fastest fighting types available to smack things around, it can be a weirdly good dual screen setter since its so initially threatening, etc etc. zama is just too good for ou, the only reason natdex has it is cause that tier is so comically rich in terms of overall power level. tldr; keep the wolf away from ou, i beg
So you have this meta 
That has x amount of: Controversies, potential suspects, and things people love but hate too
There are probably many, but let's mention 3
Garganacl, Shed Tail, and Walking Wake (who went under suspect and survived, but the controversy it caused will always be there)
Ok so you have that meta
And then
You want to add potential controversies, potential suspects, and potential things people will love but hate too
So rn you have x problems
And you want to risk having x+1 problems, or x+2, or x+3 problems testing ever uber stuff like Giratina
Why
Just why
Like why
I don't like problems
That has x amount of: Controversies, potential suspects, and things people love but hate too
There are probably many, but let's mention 3
Garganacl, Shed Tail, and Walking Wake (who went under suspect and survived, but the controversy it caused will always be there)
Ok so you have that meta
And then
You want to add potential controversies, potential suspects, and potential things people will love but hate too
So rn you have x problems
And you want to risk having x+1 problems, or x+2, or x+3 problems testing ever uber stuff like Giratina
Why
Just why
Like why
I don't like problems
It got Psychic too, letting it smack Clodsire hard. Tera Blast is also stronger than 90% of its coverage too, so I could see that being a useful move on Choice sets even if it chooses not to Tera to give it a neutral move vs Dark and Normals. I suspect it will run Tera Ground to smack Kingambit and Clodsire with Tera Blast.
the thing about this is that we don't know what will be problems unless we test them. if they turn out to be major problems, they get quickbanned (or, if they were tested from ubers, they just don't drop).
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Yeah, Tera Blast ground also hits Pex hard so it looks like the best tera for it. Very unlikely to stay in OU.
Yeah, I see Ursaluna doing good in OU, has bigger attack that GT, lower defense and speed but more special defense and doesn't fear being burned. I'm hyped.
252 Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mew: 384-453 (95.2 - 112.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mew: 423-498 (104.9 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Great Tusk in Sun seems pretty strong, NGL
I edited the post to correct writing mistakes, added a potential set and made it look more professional, I was in a hurry when I wrote this but now its a bit better looking, thank you in advance for reading
gonna give my thoughts on Pokemon/elements i consider potentially problematic, along with a couple of cool sets i've either stolen from spl or cooked up myself.
this thing, in my opinion, is the premier offensive threat in the metagame. this is due to its insane versatility on both sides of the offensive spectrum, relevant boosting moves in sd & cm, & great utility options - all of which are amplified by tera, of course. it introduces so many guessing games, & thanks to its multitude of powerful sets, reading which one it is using is nigh-impossible.
here are the cool sets i've used. the first geared towards bypassing answers (as if such things really exists) to valiant, and supporting teammates. for example, the dbond sets are great when it comes to opening up avenues for common offensive partners such as volcarona, dragonite, and agility walking wake. the last set is just a super nuke - valiant forces a lot of switches, & tera fight cc at +2 crushes answers such as amoonguss & bulk-invested volcarona.
not sure whether or not the downside of booster reliance & special frailty outweighs the offensive power of valiant. not only that, but it forces a lot of guessing games with its wide variety of sets with wildly different answers. it undermines the fundamental aspect of information gathering by being a black box until it has revealed its hand. we also have a lack good fairy switchins, & the meta features a lot of pokemon weak to fairy. kinda unhealthy imo.
volcarona shares the same characteristics as valiant regarding guessing games. it has, once again thanks to tera (great decision guys), the capacity to bypass every would-be check. the difference between volcarona & valiant is that volcarona only really has to run a couple of sets to achieve this. we have qd terablast fairy, terablast ground for pex, clod, & skeledirge, sub grass with giga drain (which is an unholy set), & i've even seen a tera fire fire blast set - imagine facing that after a qd. this mon is bullshit.
what beats this? between tera dragon sd, dd ground, dd ice+loaded dice, tera ice sd with ice shard, random tera fairy dd, and the doozy sub ice body set, i fail to see how this pokemon isn't overwhelming. furthermore, it has insane bulk for such an offensively potent pokemon - 115hp/92def/86spd. so often it feels like it survives hits that it shouldn't upon revenge killing or denting it to revenge kill. a bit too much to handle & too far above the acceptable ou power level.
moon has seen a resurgence with its booster energy dd set as of late. it hasn't seemed as good as this since the early cyclizar+moon era. prepping for this thing is really, really hard. even just tera flying acro demands so much respect in game - the best way to deal with moon is savant-like positioning on the turn that it might set up, chunk it (even then it can tera into a type to mitigate this), then either revenge with prio or pray another team member lives a hit. not sure if the meta will shift into a position where moon isn’t as strong, so we will wait and see.
terastallization is also deeply uncompetitive, allows pokemon to become overwhelmingly strong, and minimises the impact of player choice in games. not gonna really go deep into it here (check this out for that)but i feel like, though it can be fun, & it accelerates the development of the metagame, it is the principle factor in the volatility in the metagame. shame, because i think it's here to stay until sv becomes on old meta.
this meta is fairly degenerate, and i'll just link to my previous posts on goldie.
this thing, in my opinion, is the premier offensive threat in the metagame. this is due to its insane versatility on both sides of the offensive spectrum, relevant boosting moves in sd & cm, & great utility options - all of which are amplified by tera, of course. it introduces so many guessing games, & thanks to its multitude of powerful sets, reading which one it is using is nigh-impossible.here are the cool sets i've used. the first geared towards bypassing answers (as if such things really exists) to valiant, and supporting teammates. for example, the dbond sets are great when it comes to opening up avenues for common offensive partners such as volcarona, dragonite, and agility walking wake. the last set is just a super nuke - valiant forces a lot of switches, & tera fight cc at +2 crushes answers such as amoonguss & bulk-invested volcarona.
not sure whether or not the downside of booster reliance & special frailty outweighs the offensive power of valiant. not only that, but it forces a lot of guessing games with its wide variety of sets with wildly different answers. it undermines the fundamental aspect of information gathering by being a black box until it has revealed its hand. we also have a lack good fairy switchins, & the meta features a lot of pokemon weak to fairy. kinda unhealthy imo.
volcarona shares the same characteristics as valiant regarding guessing games. it has, once again thanks to tera (great decision guys), the capacity to bypass every would-be check. the difference between volcarona & valiant is that volcarona only really has to run a couple of sets to achieve this. we have qd terablast fairy, terablast ground for pex, clod, & skeledirge, sub grass with giga drain (which is an unholy set), & i've even seen a tera fire fire blast set - imagine facing that after a qd. this mon is bullshit.what beats this? between tera dragon sd, dd ground, dd ice+loaded dice, tera ice sd with ice shard, random tera fairy dd, and the doozy sub ice body set, i fail to see how this pokemon isn't overwhelming. furthermore, it has insane bulk for such an offensively potent pokemon - 115hp/92def/86spd. so often it feels like it survives hits that it shouldn't upon revenge killing or denting it to revenge kill. a bit too much to handle & too far above the acceptable ou power level. moon has seen a resurgence with its booster energy dd set as of late. it hasn't seemed as good as this since the early cyclizar+moon era. prepping for this thing is really, really hard. even just tera flying acro demands so much respect in game - the best way to deal with moon is savant-like positioning on the turn that it might set up, chunk it (even then it can tera into a type to mitigate this), then either revenge with prio or pray another team member lives a hit. not sure if the meta will shift into a position where moon isn’t as strong, so we will wait and see.terastallization is also deeply uncompetitive, allows pokemon to become overwhelmingly strong, and minimises the impact of player choice in games. not gonna really go deep into it here (check this out for that)but i feel like, though it can be fun, & it accelerates the development of the metagame, it is the principle factor in the volatility in the metagame. shame, because i think it's here to stay until sv becomes on old meta.
this meta is fairly degenerate, and i'll just link to my previous posts on goldie.
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^Honestly, I have to agree with the above guy on the meta being degenerate and too offensive. Right now, if there is a Suspect, I would be voting Ban on almost any offensive threat except Shed Tail, regardledd of the perceived brokeness just to make the meta have less threats. For example I don't consider Volcarona broken, yet right now I would still Ban it in order to have it easier preparing for other big threats. Same for other Mons like Baxc or Iron Valiant.
However, the one unhealthy threat I would be banning for its own impact, is Gholdengo. At this point it not only makes Hazard Stacking the dominant strategy but also forces every team to have at least one Mon that should do the following:
-Be faster than Gholdengo.
-Be able to KO it.
-Be able to still KO it if it randomly Teras into the Flying type.
-Be able to live 2 Shadow Balls from Non Specs sets at least.
-Be able to live one non Specs Make It Rain.
So, in practice this means Balance teams are almost dead. Gholdengo forces teams to either be extremely offensive (not only Hazard Stack, different Weathers, Shed Tail or just random combination of set-up sweepers) or use that one Blissey Stall (extremely passive team).
Yes, we have Tusk to spin, or Treads, but both have 1000 other tasks to do apart from predicting Gholdengo. In fact, defensive Tusk for me is terrible due to not always being able to even kill Ghold, while taking a lot from its moves (offensive one is really good though) . Hawlucha can Defog on Gholdengo, but it does 0 to it and allows Ghold to freely come and use Trick/TW/NP/Specs nuke. Talonflame scares it out too, but it's almost unviable outside of Stall teams.
Of course, saving Balance teams is not really an argument to ban something, but I have a feeling Corviknight specifically has to be a good Mon for the Meta to be healthy. There need to be bulky Mons that check Stuff and at the same time are not passive momentum sinkers for the meta to be enjoyable (at least for me, I know other like a lot just clicking the strongest moves and having 20 turns battles).
This is personal opinion that you can agree or not. I will only be answering to replies/quotes if I think some interesting point is provided, cause if I answered to everyone who disagrees with me, I would spend the entire day writing on this thread.
However, the one unhealthy threat I would be banning for its own impact, is Gholdengo. At this point it not only makes Hazard Stacking the dominant strategy but also forces every team to have at least one Mon that should do the following:
-Be faster than Gholdengo.
-Be able to KO it.
-Be able to still KO it if it randomly Teras into the Flying type.
-Be able to live 2 Shadow Balls from Non Specs sets at least.
-Be able to live one non Specs Make It Rain.
So, in practice this means Balance teams are almost dead. Gholdengo forces teams to either be extremely offensive (not only Hazard Stack, different Weathers, Shed Tail or just random combination of set-up sweepers) or use that one Blissey Stall (extremely passive team).
Yes, we have Tusk to spin, or Treads, but both have 1000 other tasks to do apart from predicting Gholdengo. In fact, defensive Tusk for me is terrible due to not always being able to even kill Ghold, while taking a lot from its moves (offensive one is really good though) . Hawlucha can Defog on Gholdengo, but it does 0 to it and allows Ghold to freely come and use Trick/TW/NP/Specs nuke. Talonflame scares it out too, but it's almost unviable outside of Stall teams.
Of course, saving Balance teams is not really an argument to ban something, but I have a feeling Corviknight specifically has to be a good Mon for the Meta to be healthy. There need to be bulky Mons that check Stuff and at the same time are not passive momentum sinkers for the meta to be enjoyable (at least for me, I know other like a lot just clicking the strongest moves and having 20 turns battles).
This is personal opinion that you can agree or not. I will only be answering to replies/quotes if I think some interesting point is provided, cause if I answered to everyone who disagrees with me, I would spend the entire day writing on this thread.
the top tier ghosts are obscenely good right now in general , i.e. dragapult and gholdengo.
So many times a game is as easy as pressuring the great tusk, and in some cases, sending in a ghost is a 100% good idea, even if it knocks off, because you either 1. deny the speed boost and can force it out next turn; or 2. deny the hazard removal and force it to try and come in again or take a wisp or 50% + if it stays in.
so many games are decided once the opponents great tusk is at the KO threshold for your key threat.
great tusk is in approx 50% of games, so by having a strategy to lure and weaken or KO tusk, you will guarantee ladder ranks.
You remove the bottleneck and can then just cleave through what’s left with your choice of kingambit, meowscarada, valiant, roaring moon, dragonite, or whatever your chosen fast/priority threat is.
the ghosts are great because they deny it the chance of spinning to win, and it’s a big reason they’re so amazing right now.
So many times a game is as easy as pressuring the great tusk, and in some cases, sending in a ghost is a 100% good idea, even if it knocks off, because you either 1. deny the speed boost and can force it out next turn; or 2. deny the hazard removal and force it to try and come in again or take a wisp or 50% + if it stays in.
so many games are decided once the opponents great tusk is at the KO threshold for your key threat.
great tusk is in approx 50% of games, so by having a strategy to lure and weaken or KO tusk, you will guarantee ladder ranks.
You remove the bottleneck and can then just cleave through what’s left with your choice of kingambit, meowscarada, valiant, roaring moon, dragonite, or whatever your chosen fast/priority threat is.
the ghosts are great because they deny it the chance of spinning to win, and it’s a big reason they’re so amazing right now.
something i have contemplated is the impact of hazards themselves in the metagame. we have seen a ginormous increase in the influence of hazards compared to generations before, with the wide distribution of spikes, alongside a drastic cut in the distribution of defog.
i think it is valid to discuss whether or not what Ctann laid out is actually the symptom, rather than the cause.
edit: and yes, ghosts are rather overwhelming, and have been since last generation. this generation they also have the tools to render conventional answers useless, be that by the ghost’s natural qualities, or tera. they’re a bit silly.
i think it is valid to discuss whether or not what Ctann laid out is actually the symptom, rather than the cause.
edit: and yes, ghosts are rather overwhelming, and have been since last generation. this generation they also have the tools to render conventional answers useless, be that by the ghost’s natural qualities, or tera. they’re a bit silly.
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Autumar_
If you want to contribute to this cause, please consider liking my attempt here
Have a nice day,
Autumar_
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