Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Meowscarada is male
dugtrio is real
every copy of pokemon x and y is personalized
the paradox pokemon are the imagination of people
corviknight is a good deffoger
clodsire is not friend shaped
1LDK is a good player
this post is funny


I wanna talk about psyspam a bit, what do you guys think is gonna happen to the playstyle when HOME arrives, we know that the DLCs will bring back Tapu Lele (because easy gamefreak money) but I think the playstyle is gonna get a massive L with Kleavor and Samurott-H, once hazards are up you basically have 75% of the work done, so i wonder how is it gonna adapt to these new mons and if it is gonna take a good use from the new monss, Hoopa Unbound sounds funny as shit
but meowscarada is actually male 87.5% of the time lol
 
Can't find the post to which answer, but a Mon being a Box Legendary is not a reason to not test it in OU. Kyu-B was in OU from Gen 5 to Gen 7, only when it gained DD + Icicle Spear it became Uber. Last Gen another Box Legend (Zamazenta Crowned) was tested in OU, though it remained banned eventually.

Don't have the energy to justify now tests for Zamazenta forms or Giratina, it's theorymoning anyway. When the time comes, I will discuss the potential influence or healthiness of both Mons in the context of the meta of that time.
 
zamazenta literally got buffed this gen to where iron defense body press is a thing, and makes it a very good setup sweeper

what made kyurem black banworthy was being able to setup sweep

actively "just asking things" about if mons should be pulled down from ubers is what creates some of the worst time periods to play of all-time (such as during the zamazenta suspect, which was due to "popular demand" when youtubers picked it up)

so frankly, no, don't talk about bringing down box legends seriously unless there is a very, very, very, very good reason to
"Don't talk about this thing I don't like and don't agree with" Bro, there are limits to the freedom of speech, but you are taking them too far. It's a legit topic to discuss, you can agree with the idea or not, but refusing to allow even discussing something is not a valid point.

Another not entirely valid point is "the worst time period to play of all time". That's entirely subjective to each player and not everyone will agree with that. For example, I think that current meta is worse than one with Chien Pao right before Greninja (and everything after that) was released. Do everyone agree on that? Clearly not, but it's also clear that not everyone will be thinking exactly the same as you do and saying a specific period of time "is the worst to play" is not an argument for avoiding a specific action/test.

Lastly, bringing Iron Defense + Body Press is a valid point, it's clearly a buff that Zamazenta didn't have last Gen. However, 1. Meta changed and will change even more before Zamazenta comes. And 2. Iron Defense+ Body Press alone doesn't break the Mon. 6 types resist Fighting. Skeledirge and Pex will be laughing at that set, defensive teams will have 0 troubles stopping it and even offensive ones will have enough options to stop it. What might break Zamazenta (and that is what will have to be discussed when the Mon drops and time comes, not now) is the ability to have that set + Band + Howl&3 Attacks + Restalk, all that combined with multiple Tera Options. But Iron Defense + Body Press alone is very far from broken. As already said, when the time comes, discussion will be held whether the combination of all possible sets of Zamazenta will be broken in the meta of that time or not, but certainly it doesn't have 1 set with which destroy the whole meta unlike Mons like Kyogre or Dracovish for example.
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
Can't find the post to which answer, but a Mon being a Box Legendary is not a reason to not test it in OU. Kyu-B was in OU from Gen 5 to Gen 7, only when it gained DD + Icicle Spear it became Uber. Last Gen another Box Legend (Zamazenta Crowned) was tested in OU, though it remained banned eventually.

Don't have the energy to justify now tests for Zamazenta forms or Giratina, it's theorymoning anyway. When the time comes, I will discuss the potential influence or healthiness of both Mons in the context of the meta of that time.
Seconding this as well to an extent.

TBH, I think unless the council thinks that Zamazenta (either crowned or hero) would be a safe drop, I think it would be better to wait a little after HOME to test them. People are still grumbling about Wake, Garganacl, and Kingambit a bit, and HOME will be super turbulent. The only non Box legendary coming from Home I see getting on the initial banlist is Landorus I. We will have to contend with Urshifu S, Magearna, Spectrier, Regieleki, Ursaluna, Enamourus I, and Basculegion (before a last respects ban) who all seem very scary. I think Urshifu S, Mag, Spectrier and Last Respects will probably get the axe, but the point is once HOME drops, the metagame will be super turbulent as is.

Here is my shortlist of the at least fringe OU viable HOME drops.

Hisuian Arcanine, Zapdos, Galaran Zapdos, Moltres, Galaran Moltres, Mew, Galaran Slowking, Azelf, Heatran, Cresselia, Hisuian Samurott, Hisuian Lilligant, Hisuian Braviary, Tornadus T, Thundurus, Thundurus T, Landorus I (if it does not get quickbanned day 1 or not on the banlist originally) , Landorus T, Chesnaught, Hisuian Goodra, Hoopa U, Volcanion, Magearna, Rillaboom (losing grassy glide sucks but it still will be a decent wallbreaker), Urshifu S, Urshifu R, Regieleki, Spectrier, Kleavor, Ursaluna, Basculegion, Sneasler, Enamourus I, Enamourus T.

Obviously not all of those will be OU staples. I expect maybe half or a third of these mons will actually remain OU. The point is thought that we will be dumping a metric ton of viable mons into the tier. I think at least five in Landorus I, Magearna, Spectrier, Urshifu S, and Last Respects Basculgeion are very likely to end up being problematic and banworthy. You can even argue Regieleki or Enarmourus or whatever is also problematic, but I think those are more clear cut.

All those issues, on top pre existing issues in the tier, be it the three mons I mentioned above or lingering concerns about Terrastralization, make me think seeing if Giratina or Zamazenta or Origin Dialga or whatever is not a priority. I think those discussions are valid to have once the tier begins to stabilize. Once we get home, we have a relatively stable tier, maybe those mons are worth a look at the end of the day. I think personally Zamazenta Hero and potentially Crowned pending our Terra ruling could be less problematic for the tier than something like Magearna at least. I think it is important to at least talk about or consider these drops, even if it won't be a little while until they are feasible unless big papa Finchinator is confident he can drop Zamazenta from the initial banlist without it being on the radar immediately.
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
Yes that's right, the only thing that we can discuss are things that I LIKE or that I don't like but WILL allow

Here is something friendly to talk about, Clodsire, he is friend :clodsire:

Clodsire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock/Haze
- Toxic
- Recover

This is the most common clodsire set right now, it hard counters WW, it can put up rocks, it can haze for its friendly shaped teammates, it throws a really healthy toxic that will have no consequences on your body and since he is a friend, he brought snacks to share and recover health

But I wanna ask if somebody has experimented with its move pool and or eves and stuff, I know its attack stat makes clod kind of one dimensional and passive, but I would rather talk about him that going back to the same garganacl into volcarona into shed tail into revival blessing into kingambit into home meta discussion
 
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Regarding to Spectrier, if the new move it got was Moonblast, I would maybe give him a chance. But Draining Kiss + NP + that speed and power is too much if it recovers health apart from killing stuff. Tera Blast gives him too many options as well.
I defended Spectrier staying OU last Gen due to the potential it gave to low usage Mons like Umbreon, Regigigas or Exploud hard countering it, but this Gen I see 0 positive things for it to bring to the meta.
The only former Ubers (planned to be released, so no Zygarde here) I would test would be Zamazenta Hero, Giratina-A and Zamazenta Crown, in this order.
There is really no need to test the 720 BST Ubers. There is a reason these usually have remained banned with little discussion.
 
There is really no need to test the 720 BST Ubers. There is a reason these usually have remained banned with little discussion.
You said it USUALLY. It has been done in the past and the Mon that populated OU from BW to SM got not complains, even in SM when it got Z Moves to use nuclear power Freeze Shock to remove something almost every battle. Stats are not everything, if they were, I would propose to ban everything above 550 BST to get rid of all the legends. Stats do matter but if the Mon in actual playtests doesn't break the Tier, what is the problem?
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
What has actually changed for Zamazenta, Zamazenta-Crowned and Giratina to warrant them getting a possible test in OU? Like the only argument that you made is this would be cool and interesting to see in OU, which isn't really an argument at all. No one is silencing you, people simply do not want the thread to be cluttered in nonsense theorymon, since thatbis something that derails the thread and distracts from relevant or otherwise meaningful discussion.

So if anyone has a good argument as for why this is a good idea to be worth discussing, fine let's do it. But if the whole idea boils down to it's fun, it's interesting , or it's a new metagame tbh don't waste everyone's time.
 
There have been changes:
-Zamazenta got the ability nerfed to work only once per battle. Pretty sure it lost some moves too, cant look now thought.
-Giratina-A lost Toxic, which is important. Even more important is Rest PP Nerf, it can't nearly PP Stall as well as it user to. In fact, I think it should have been tested last Gen with 467256 Mons having Knock Off and with 2 common Mons having Terrains that don't allow Giratina to sleep. At the time I didn't think about it though and no one did.

Again, this right now it's just theorymoning, so I won't be posting complex long posts with both Pokemon interacting vs the meta. But the discussion is completely legit and there are actual arguments to test the Mons (unlike others like Kyogre, which have none) , maybe not when they come, but after Meta stabilizes after Home is released.
 
You said it USUALLY. It has been done in the past and the Mon that populated OU from BW to SM got not complains, even in SM when it got Z Moves to use nuclear power Freeze Shock to remove something almost every battle. Stats are not everything, if they were, I would propose to ban everything above 550 BST to get rid of all the legends. Stats do matter but if the Mon in actual playtests doesn't break the Tier, what is the problem?
Yes, it has happened before, and I disagreed with it back then, too. Having a high power level in OU will generally lead the tier to become more matchup reliant. This is (imo) what happened with gen 7 (arguably 6 & 8) - too many overpowered threats that are impossible to account for with a single team.
 
Yes, it has happened before, and I disagreed with it back then, too. Having a high power level in OU will generally lead the tier to become more matchup reliant. This is (imo) what happened with gen 7 (arguably 6 & 8) - too many overpowered threats that are impossible to account for with a single team.
I agree with you in that the power level was very high in recent Gens. However, Zamazenta specifically is the type of Mon that will make other offensive Mons worsr, while not being able to break bulky structures at the same time. As a result, general power level at least in theory should decrease. This is my bizarre way to solve the meta, since the rule of 550 BST max will never be followed. Of course, if Zamazenta ends up being broken in OU it won't work either, but that is what should be tested, whether it's broken or not.
 
  • Do we think Gren is going to stay OU? I doubt it, Meowsc feels like a better protean-er, fast pivot and spikes setterbond is just... ugh.

This is what I've been worried about ever since Walking Wake dropped. Gren is an amazing pokemon but if you want a strong water special attacker you have WW there. Although with its insane coverage you can make it fit in any team by just giving it the tools your team is missing, he's that good.

That said, I hope he stays a bit longer in OU, it'd be sad seeing Gren drop to UU after being gone for so long but if it drops it'll be the ugly's cat fault. PERIOD.
I too would hate to see Greninja leave the tier but let’s not blame it on everyone’s favorite bipedal kitty friend plz. It most def would be cinderace's fault. That said, if gren drops, that's bad news for staple uu mons right now, like talonflame, Lycan-Dusk, and many more thanks to protean. A mon with an ability like that would break uu.
But do you know who should leave ou? Decidueye. Its physical/special split stats leave little room for bulk or speed, and its ability is trash. Grass is a pretty bad typing, leaving it weak to staple OU mons this gen like dirge and the mega man twins. -> :armarouge: :ceruledge: It also lost poltergeist this gen, making its physical ghost type options scarce. The role decidueye plays is like a jack of a trades kinda thing. It can be a setup sweeper with swords dance and nasty plot depending on which attacks ur running, or it can be utility, with support moves like tailwind, light screen, knock off, and u-turn to name a few, not mention it has recovery in roost and synthesis. But being able to fill any role means there will be a mon that covers each of decidueye's roles better than decidueye does. there are better Grass types in OU in meow, and definitely better ghost types in dragapult. This is why I imagine Decidueye being gone soon. RU seems like a place where it would be at least A tier.
 
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TCTphantom

formerly MX42
What has actually changed for Zamazenta, Zamazenta-Crowned and Giratina to warrant them getting a possible test in OU? Like the only argument that you made is this would be cool and interesting to see in OU, which isn't really an argument at all. No one is silencing you, people simply do not want the thread to be cluttered in nonsense theorymon, since thatbis something that derails the thread and distracts from relevant or otherwise meaningful discussion.

So if anyone has a good argument as for why this is a good idea to be worth discussing, fine let's do it. But if the whole idea boils down to it's fun, it's interesting , or it's a new metagame tbh don't waste everyone's time.
Well for one, Gen IX is not Gen VIII. Power creep exists. The meta is very different in what is and isnt in the meta. Hazard removal ain't great right now, Terrastralizing is a thing, and Scald is MIA. Gen IX is very far from Gen VIII 2.0. Sure, some things will probably be broken on principle no matter what. Landorus I will still probably have maybe one switch in in the entire tier.

Giratina or Zamazenta are not a Landorus I though. Many people have talked about how Zama H or Zama C would not immediately break the tier in half, though Zama C might want to wait until after we rule on Terra Team Preview stuff. While I doubt either is on the radar for being off the initial banlist, I think there is a ton of logic to look at them. Zama lost Dauntless Shield's boons of being able to switch in easier with its rough nerf. It has two sets we would have to be concerned about: Banded and Body Press. Body Press is very MU reliant and easy for defensive teams to handle. Band is scarier, especially with Tera Fighting Close Combats, but it has bad 4MSS and is very prediction reliant even in OU, where we have multiple top tier ghost types making clicking CC a bit of a gamble each time.

Giratina Altered has some logic for a look. Its a fat fat fatty that has only one reliable recovery move in Rest...which got nerfed pretty hard. You could use Pain Split, but Giratina has such a huge HP stat that seems like an awful idea. It also no longer has access to Toxic, which makes it even more passive. It has Wisp Hex or Dragon Tail, but it is going to have some pretty brutal 4mms. You want Defog to clear hazards, but if do not have Rest this thing will get chipped hard. Offensive sets also are not that amazing. Calm Mind is going to have some 4MSS of its own and Specs is just fat Dragapult without the speed control. This also is coming off of only 100/100/90 offenses. I could see Sub CM being annoying for Stall to handle, but they can phaze it as well and it is vulnerable to hazard chip, particularly toxic spikes.

Keep in mind, I think none of these should be taken off the initial banlist. We have way too much strong stuff coming in at once it would not be easy to gauge if they are problems. But it
 
What has actually changed for Zamazenta, Zamazenta-Crowned and Giratina to warrant them getting a possible test in OU? Like the only argument that you made is this would be cool and interesting to see in OU, which isn't really an argument at all. No one is silencing you, people simply do not want the thread to be cluttered in nonsense theorymon, since thatbis something that derails the thread and distracts from relevant or otherwise meaningful discussion.

So if anyone has a good argument as for why this is a good idea to be worth discussing, fine let's do it. But if the whole idea boils down to it's fun, it's interesting , or it's a new metagame tbh don't waste everyone's time.
At the risk of responding at a poor time because I misread, I think the Dauntless Shield nerf could legitimately make Zamazenta worth looking at again, if only a glance rather than worth trying to test in OU again. Compared to Zacian, Mono Fighting or Fighting/Steel aren't stellar defensive typings with the OU staples we have right now (a lot of SE STAB users like Great Tusk and Iron Valiant, while Gholdengo, Dragonite and Volcarona can take advantage of sets using Choice items or certain Set-up), which would leave Zam depending a lot more on its stats to take hits, something that the once-per-battle nerf impacts since it can't switch in too many times without the boost (compared to the offensive counterpart usually trying to win the game in the one-switch already). I'm focusing more on Zacian-Hero because even with Item access I would sooner believe that one being able to work into OU.

An ability that no longer plays well with switching in and out is a more significant nerf than it looks like, as Zamazenta-H is no longer working with an effective 92/180/115 bulk from the +1 on entry (and usually lacking that +1 to a Body Press set without a turn for ID). The Hazard Heavy and removal-lite meta compounds its lack of recovery outside of Rest, something we saw heavily undercuts higher raw bulk such as Dondozo. Obviously Zamazenta is much less passive, this is just to illustrate the numbers aren't something OU doesn't deal with already, doubly so since Zamazenta lacks Unaware if you want it to check something that might set-up, with investment also inviting the question of where to put its IVs (Speed is always important, then it has to choose between ATK/DEF for Body Press and HP to extend its tanking a bit longer)

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 249-294 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 224-266 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 235-277 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta: 224-266 (57.7 - 68.5%) -- approx. 2HKO

Zamazenta's hypothetical OU role tends to gravitate towards a very fast and Bulky Offensive check, but multiple factors undercutting its bulk makes that role a lot less absurd than it looked in Gen 8 OU (also the top of the game then had stuff it ate like Heatran, Melmetal, and Weavile). I don't want to say throw it into the tier and then remove it after a week if it looks bad, but there's a logic to suggesting it as the first/only "initially" Uber worth testing in OU again considering other stuff we have retested despite clearly overbearing presence on-paper like Gen 6 with the Deoxys forms or most Gens' Genesect. I'd at least put it on the level of UU's recent Suspect (admittedly ending with a Ban) for Iron Hands or Gen 8's ending Suspect for Melmetal (which was voted to stay).
 
I too would hate to see Greninja leave the tier but let’s not blame it on everyone’s favorite bipedal kitty friend plz. It most def would be cinderace's fault. That said, if gren drops, that's bad news for staple uu mons right now, like talonflame, Lycan-Dusk, and many more thanks to protean. A mon with an ability like that would break uu.
But do you know who should leave ou? Decidueye. Its physical/special split stats leave little room for bulk or speed, and its ability is trash. Grass is a pretty bad typing, leaving it weak to staple OU mons this gen like dirge and the mega man twins. -> :armarouge: :ceruledge: It also lost poltergeist this gen, making its physical ghost type options scarce. The role decidueye plays is like a jack of a trades kinda thing. It can be a setup sweeper with swords dance and nasty plot depending on which attacks ur running, or it can be utility, with support moves like tailwind, light screen, knock off, and u-turn to name a few, not mention it has recovery in roost and synthesis. But being able to fill any role means there will be a mon that covers each of decidueye's roles better than decidueye does. there are better Grass types in OU in meow, and definitely better ghost types in dragapult. This is why I imagine Decidueye being gone soon. RU seems like a place where it would be at least A tier.
Yeah Gren would probably by banned in UU the minute it falls there since he destroys the main pokemon from that tier.

As for Deci, he'll debut in OU but will go back to UU or even RU in May, I love it but has no business in OU.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Top Tutoris a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
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I for one would think it'd be a waste of time to allow Tina-A and Zama in OU but who am I to judge? :mehowth:
You seem like a very intelligent user because you're absolutely right it would be a waste of time to allow. Just because Giratina lost Toxic and Zama had a nerf ability wise means nothing when you're adding something that has been Ubers their entire life. (It doesn't change anything)

This will be my last comment about this issue because there are better things to talk about tbh rather than theorymoning about something that probably won't happen.

Zamazenta (Jolly Nature) has 412 Speed, that would make it only behind Dragapult where the difference is that it has 660 BST. You can go with a more bulky set running Iron Defense / Body Press, fantastic bulky 92 /115 /115 respectively. Access to moves such as Close Combat, Iron Head, Psychic Fang, Wild Charge, Stone Edge, Crunch, Agility, and Howl. Yeah as a bad uber mon, this thing would be insane to have in OU, would be a top 1-3 mons. It doesn't really have a negative aspect to it unlike Walking Wake which you can make the argument of having a smaller move pool, the only weakness this thing has is Special Attack, lol.

Giratina.... BIG LOL. Like what? It would be the best OU mon by far and it's not close. Insane 150/120/120 bulk in combo with tera where it can be a great wall in the tier with a Rest / Sleep Talk set. Has access to Calm Mind where it can be Mono Sleep Talk, Has both 100 Attack / SpA so it's no slouch. One of the only mons in the tier with Defog, this is a big one, the usage on Giratina would be insane because it's ability to Block Rapid Spin as well as being one of the few defoggers in the Tier. Has more unreliable recovery moves like Pain Split to save a moveslot on Rest / Sleep Talk combo. Access to Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Shadow Sneak, Draco Meteor, Shadow Ball, Stone Edge, Outrage, Dragon Tail, Destiny Bond, Aura Sphere, Shadow Force, Thunder / Thunderbolt, and Earthquake. It's movepool is larger than Zamazenta, it's only weakness if you want to call it that is it's base 90 speed, which is still pretty good in OU standards especially in regards to a fat wall. I think the argument that is not being elevated is the usage of Tera on these 2 mons would make it maybe more broken than they've been in the paste. So ???

+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Giratina: 456-536 (90.4 - 106.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (Side Note: Giratina is faster than Gholdengo, this is 4 SpD investment with neutral nature)

252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 168-200 (33.3 - 39.6%) -- 21.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

1680110825480.png
 
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Honestly, maybe Zama-C could be balanced in a non-tera metagame. I thought it was extremely mid last generation when it was being tested and iirc it was mainly banned because people didn't like fighting Toxapex lmao (which is fair, I hate that mon too).

We allowed Pokemon like Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu in the tier which have drastically better offensive stats compared to Ubers like Darkrai, Reshiram or Lugia, so I don't really get what's stopping us from testing these weaker Ubers other than maybe saving time. Something I never understood is why the different Genesect forms weren't treated as separate Pokemon, given that they have different Pokedex entries and different appearances + are immune to the effects of moves like Trick similar to Giratina-O. Probably not worth discussing this though since it doesn't really pertain to the current OU metagame + I doubt it will really influence anything.
 
Honestly, maybe Zama-C could be balanced in a non-tera metagame. I thought it was extremely mid last generation when it was being tested and iirc it was mainly banned because people didn't like fighting Toxapex lmao (which is fair, I hate that mon too).

We allowed Pokemon like Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu in the tier which have drastically better offensive stats compared to Ubers like Darkrai, Reshiram or Lugia, so I don't really get what's stopping us from testing these weaker Ubers other than maybe saving time. Something I never understood is why the different Genesect forms weren't treated as separate Pokemon, given that they have different Pokedex entries and different appearances + are immune to the effects of moves like Trick similar to Giratina-O. Probably not worth discussing this though since it doesn't really pertain to the current OU metagame + I doubt it will really influence anything.
Zamazenta and Darkrai speed tiers are the main issue, sure, Chi-yu was stronger than Darkrai, but with access to nasty plot and being faster than Meowscara will put the thier in an ackward spot playing around it, pretty much like Pao, but it will be more evident because overall is harder to stop special attackers than the physical ones. While Zamazenta typing allows it to set up and sweep with body press with little support. Of course we still need to see in practice how they will work, but it is hard to imagine mons that fast with access to +2 boost moves being balanced in the tier.
Especially since Smeargle will return too and it will be a far better shed tail user than Orthworm.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
Honestly, I could maybe see the argument for some of the crappy Ubers being tested if Tera didn't exist. Like, Zamazenta-Hero could maybe be balanced as a fast CB user IF it didn't have the ability to make it's Close Combats into literal nukes while having an insane speed tier and solid bulk. Giratina-A would already be unbearable to fight against with its bulk, but being able to Tera to avoid stuff like Dark-type moves would make something like Garganacl look like baby food in comparison. Anything else like Darkrai can just do some stupid shit like Tera Fighting with Focus Blast to nuke its few checks. We already have enough trouble dealing with Tera on significantly weaker Pokemon currently, so I don't see any reason to allow mons that are way stronger in every facet that can also abuse the mechanic. Not a Tera ban post btw just saying why its pretty futile to retest Ubers in this gen in particular as someone who supported the Zama-C test in Gen 8
 
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