Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Eeveeto]

Its a dumb meme i see
Please do not the +2 calm mind choice specs glaceon

Honestly, i would support the ban of most legendarys, but Heatran is a necesarry evil, you really dont appreciate heatran untill you tank a +2 hydro pump from cloyster

It harms more than it does well to the meta. At least this Gen it lost Toxic, so definitely will be easier to stop. I wish it lost Taunt too though, in fact I wish Taunt was fully Dexited.
Btw, Cloyster learns a funny move named Liquidation, it doesn't need to use Hydro. Another thing regarding Cloyster, as long as Dondozo exists and is fairly common, only viable Cloyster set for me is Band + Tera Electric, I don't like playing 5vs6 in some match-ups. Band Explosion + Tera Normal would have been even cooler, but Cloyster lost the move.

 

[awyp]

I think Greninja may drop out of OU usage for a bit given Walking Wake and Meowscarada step on his toes for splashability on two fronts, but his actual viability I see lasting at the minimum until Home, given OU still has a severe lack of good Special Tanks/Sponges that can switch into Greninja's coverage (especially with people teching in stuff like Grass Knot)

I don't see Greninja dropping especially with the weather wars being an option against sun teams. I think Greninja works fantastically in rain teams. Yes I think that will definitely be argued when HOME comes out but as of now I don't see it dropping. If Battle Bond Greninja ever comes out I also think that might keep it in OU regardless of the nerf.

 

[pika pal]

I don't see Greninja dropping especially with the weather wars being an option against sun teams. I think Greninja works fantastically in rain teams. Yes I think that will definitely be argued when HOME comes out but as of now I don't see it dropping. If Battle Bond Greninja ever comes out I also think that might keep it in OU regardless of the nerf.

I'm iffy on Battle Bond impacting Greninja's viability without reverting the nerf, since the one-off boost is strong but still not something Gren can hang onto very long with its bulk and priority existing. I could maybe see it functioning as a decent cleaner, but the lack of STAB for coverage (even on hit-and-run) and commitment to staying in once the boost is nabbed feel too restricting on it.

 

[G-Luke]

Regarding to Spectrier, if the new move it got was Moonblast, I would maybe give him a chance. But Draining Kiss + NP + that speed and power is too much if it recovers health apart from killing stuff. Tera Blast gives him too many options as well.
I defended Spectrier staying OU last Gen due to the potential it gave to low usage Mons like Umbreon, Regigigas or Exploud hard countering it, but this Gen I see 0 positive things for it to bring to the meta.
The only former Ubers (planned to be released, so no Zygarde here) I would test would be Zamazenta Hero, Giratina-A and Zamazenta Crown, in this order.

Literally nothing here deserves to be tested LMAO

And I am ngl I find the merit of your competitive arguments dubious if you admitted to trying argue for a Broken Pokemon by showing bad Pokemon.

Anyways, Zamazenta-Crowned getting access to Body Press this generation imo eliminates any chance of it having a fair shot in OU. It's an aggressively efficient Sweeper with ID Body Press, and base Zamazenta with Band is really hard to consistently check, due to it carrying coverage for any possible switchins and Banded Tera Fighting Close Combat blasting anything that isn't an immunity. I don't even see the need to entertain the Giratina Convo tbh.

 

[`ShadowTwo]

I don't understand why we should test Giratina-A in OU, this thing has one of the most absurd bulk in the game, a heal ability with Rest, the same Sp Attack stat as Dragapult with the same double type, Pressure and access to Tera. The Pokemon will be just horrible to face.

 

[Alternator]

• Do we think Gren is going to stay OU? I doubt it, Meowsc feels like a better protean-er, fast pivot and spikes setter, and battle bond is just... ugh.

Yes. Special vs physical differentiates it from Meowscarada, and a much better speed tier gives it a niche over Walking Wake.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I don't understand why we should test Giratina-A in OU, this thing has one of the most absurd bulk in the game, a heal ability with Rest, the same Sp Attack stat as Dragapult with the same double type, Pressure and access to Tera. The Pokemon will be just horrible to face.

rest isn't exactly a reliable form of recovery, and gira-a's damage output isn't great, especially without toxic (although the transfer move thing has never actually been confirmed by a reliable source, centro just made it up and everyone went from there). if the transfer-move thing does turn out to be right, it also loses defog, which is a huge blow to it. also, i can see a lot of potential answers to it. gambit, azu, valiant, clod, garg, bax, ting-lu, chomp, moon, pult, dnite, gren, wake, ghold, dirge, meow, zoro-h, ttar, hatterene, and hydreigon all can conceivably beat it depending on what it's running, and taunt grimm shits all over it no matter what it does because realistically it's not gonna be running damaging moves besides dragon stab and sometimes shadow ball or, very rarely, hex. oh yeah, and since this is the post-home meta we're talking about, let's toss in zarude (which has already proven itself as a reliable gira-a answer last gen), both enamorus forms, crunch ursaluna, samurott-h, moltres-g, and both hoopa-u and urshifu-ss if they somehow stay (not going to discuss magearna or spectrier because neither one's lasting a week). there's also the tried-and-true stallbreaking technique of tricking a choice item onto it. if i were to choose one uber to test this gen, it would be gira-a

 

[UnusualBoy]

• Do we think Gren is going to stay OU? I doubt it, Meowsc feels like a better protean-er, fast pivot and spikes setter, and battle bond is just... ugh.

This is what I've been worried about ever since Walking Wake dropped. Gren is an amazing pokemon but if you want a strong water special attacker you have WW there. Although with its insane coverage you can make it fit in any team by just giving it the tools your team is missing, he's that good.

That said, I hope he stays a bit longer in OU, it'd be sad seeing Gren drop to UU after being gone for so long but if it drops it'll be the ugly's cat fault. PERIOD.

 

[UnusualBoy]

Also, are we really proposing Giratina-A and Zamazenta-C in OU?

Box legendaries have no business in the tier, Tina has 150 hp, 120 defenses, that shit is a tank with utility moves in the likes of T-Wave, WOW, icy wind and coverage for all its weaknessess and then you have Zamazenta-C who has less hp but huge defenses and big attack and speed, they don't belong here.

 

[Low-Key]

Also, are we really proposing Giratina-A and Zamazenta-C in OU?

Box legendaries have no business in the tier, Tina has 150 hp, 120 defenses, that shit is a tank with utility moves in the likes of T-Wave, WOW, icy wind and coverage for all its weaknessess and then you have Zamazenta-C who has less hp but huge defenses and big attack and speed, they don't belong here.

Speaking of Zamazenta, just as a question for y'all: could base Zamazenta possibly gain a foothold in OU like it does in NatDex or will it fall into the "too good for OU yet too bad for Ubers" scenario? I'd assume the latter even though Dauntless Shield got nerfed since it does have colossal bulk.

 

[Talpr0ne]

rest isn't exactly a reliable form of recovery, and gira-a's damage output isn't great, especially without toxic (although the transfer move thing has never actually been confirmed by a reliable source, centro just made it up and everyone went from there). if the transfer-move thing does turn out to be right, it also loses defog, which is a huge blow to it. also, i can see a lot of potential answers to it. gambit, azu, valiant, clod, garg, bax, ting-lu, chomp, moon, pult, dnite, gren, wake, ghold, dirge, meow, zoro-h, ttar, hatterene, and hydreigon all can conceivably beat it depending on what it's running, and taunt grimm shits all over it no matter what it does because realistically it's not gonna be running damaging moves besides dragon stab and sometimes shadow ball or, very rarely, hex. oh yeah, and since this is the post-home meta we're talking about, let's toss in zarude (which has already proven itself as a reliable gira-a answer last gen), both enamorus forms, crunch ursaluna, samurott-h, moltres-g, and both hoopa-u and urshifu-ss if they somehow stay (not going to discuss magearna or spectrier because neither one's lasting a week). there's also the tried-and-true stallbreaking technique of tricking a choice item onto it. if i were to choose one uber to test this gen, it would be gira-a

Do you REALLY want to deal with SubCM Giratina in OU? I don't. Not when it can burn half the "checks" you listed and potentially tera to invalidate the other half.

You have to remember that Giratina and Lugia are reduced to be shitty momentum sapping defoggers in Ubers because they have to contend with behemots such as Eternatus, Yveltal and Necrozma up there. They wouldn't in OU so they'd get to do basically whatever they want.

 

[Solar Power]

I'd like to give a shout-out to a very fun set that I've been running on psychic terrain recently:

Armarouge @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 100 Def / 160 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Armor Cannon
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense

I can't take credit for the build, as I pulled it from a Blunder video (Chromedomebone, iykyk)

This has been such a fun win-con to run given how many physical attackers are running around with Dark/Ghost/Ground attacks. It's a great Knock-off absorber as it's an easy way to get set-up. The Speed EV's allow it to outspeed Kingambit and Azumarill, allowing it to get an Iron Defense off to ensure it survives a Kowtow/Liquidation, and activates its Weakness Policy. It also allows you to outspeed +1 max speed Great Tusk/Baxcalibur (and everything slower, including Scarf Gholdengo, for example) after one Weak Armor boost, as well as the entire unboosted metagame.

I slightly modified the build by running Armor Cannon instead of Aura Sphere, because in my experience there's almost never a situation where it's worth it. Tera Dark Clodsire, for example, will wall you even if you run Aura Sphere. Neutral Armor Cannon will hit for more damage than a 2x effective Aura Sphere anyway. So that means you're really only running Aura Sphere for 2 things, (1) Kingambit, and (2) Tyranitar. Much like Tera Dark Clodsire, Tyranitar is likely still going to beat you even with Aura Sphere, so you're better off just eliminating Tyranitar before bringing this in to set-up. In my experience, Kingambit tends to go Tera Flying against this in anticipation of the Aura Sphere, which allows you to hit it with Stored Power. There's also the added bonus that Armor Cannon hits Corviknight way harder and is just generally a good and spammable neutral attack when you're at +2.

This dovetails perfectly with Indeedee who can come in multiple times to get and keep psychic terrain up, and can provide it Healing Wish support allowing you to reposition and take a second crack at sweeping. It also is going to bait Knock-offs and physical attackers, giving you even more set-up opportunities.

In this game, it finishes off an offensive team using Physical Pult to set-up (Turn 21): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1831861819-57wsd8z9xzifs7xq4uyb4rsq4onh5p8pw

Here it is using physical Valiant as set-up fodder to break open the game early and finish the job via Healing Wish, also showing its tech for Kingambit: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1830098641-jrn824l5911ihl3592bnbxui9qsnw4ppw

In this game, it uses Great Tusk to set-up, predicts and beats its Tera, and then comes back via Healing Wish to 1v1 an opposing Armarouge using a different set (Turn 11-12, 21-27): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1831207669-wn49hf107bvzif5na92ch8r5jag79o8pw

This game is just a disrespectful 6-0 starting Turn 12, also a cautionary tale on the dangers of Choice Band + Sucker Punch: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1829403284-lal6ty3nn1gwxeke9ez9jesrq1accxzpw

Overall this has been a very fun mon to run and it's nice to be able to use psychic terrain for something other than Polteageist/Espathra shenanigans

 

[UnusualBoy]

Speaking of Zamazenta, just as a question for y'all: could base Zamazenta possibly gain a foothold in OU like it does in NatDex or will it fall into the "too good for OU yet too bad for Ubers" scenario? I'd assume the latter even though Dauntless Shield got nerfed since it does have colossal bulk.

Too good for OU yet too bad for ubers for sure. We're walking about a pokemon with 660 BST. 138 speed, the 2nd fastest after Pult, 120 atk and 115 in defenses, give it a CB or a LO and this thing basically destroys the tier.

 

[SpritePony]

Derailing this a wee bit here, as there's some news a lot of you would be interested in hearing;
While playing on Cart during my exercise time today, I ran into the all too common Spinner vs Glimmora interaction -- specifically Spin vs Toxic Debris. Those of you who have run into it on Showdown, know that PS's interaction goes like this:
Rapid Spin > Hit > Speed Up > Hazards Removed > Toxic Debris Activates > Glimmora may or may not faint.

But on Cart, the actual interaction is different. Order of Operations dictates an entirely different flow that devs of PS need to correct (I posted about this in the PS Bug report v4 thread with video proof.)
Rapid Spin > Hit > Speed Up > Toxic Debris Activates > Glimmora may or may not faint > Hazards Removed.

This DRASTICALLY changes how the flow of battle works when it comes to spinning against Glim. Hopefully they can patch this in quickly.

 

[YNM]

Derailing this a wee bit here, as there's some news a lot of you would be interested in hearing;
While playing on Cart during my exercise time today, I ran into the all too common Spinner vs Glimmora interaction -- specifically Spin vs Toxic Debris. Those of you who have run into it on Showdown, know that PS's interaction goes like this:
Rapid Spin > Hit > Speed Up > Hazards Removed > Toxic Debris Activates > Glimmora may or may not faint.

But on Cart, the actual interaction is different. Order of Operations dictates an entirely different flow that devs of PS need to correct (I posted about this in the PS Bug report v4 thread with video proof.)
Rapid Spin > Hit > Speed Up > Toxic Debris Activates > Glimmora may or may not faint > Hazards Removed.

This DRASTICALLY changes how the flow of battle works when it comes to spinning against Glim. Hopefully they can patch this in quickly.

I'm pretty sure it's the same on PS? Either that or I'm an hacker and I didn't even realize it.

 

[SpritePony]

I'm pretty sure it's the same on PS? Either that or I'm an hacker and I didn't even realize it.

If it's accidental I apologize but at least fact check before posting something like this

It must've been patched before I found it, then. I remember seeing it first hand and seeing it through PokeAimMD's videos (where he'd complain about the interaction not working the way it does now).

I'll go back to my corner.

 

[1LDK]

missinformationposting

Meowscarada is male
dugtrio is real
every copy of pokemon x and y is personalized
the paradox pokemon are the imagination of people
corviknight is a good deffoger
clodsire is not friend shaped
1LDK is a good player
this post is funny

Armarouge @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 100 Def / 160 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Armor Cannon
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense

I wanna talk about psyspam a bit, what do you guys think is gonna happen to the playstyle when HOME arrives, we know that the DLCs will bring back Tapu Lele (because easy gamefreak money) but I think the playstyle is gonna get a massive L with Kleavor and Samurott-H, once hazards are up you basically have 75% of the work done, so i wonder how is it gonna adapt to these new mons and if it is gonna take a good use from the new monss, Hoopa Unbound sounds funny as shit

 

[Fancy1]

Meowscarada is male
dugtrio is real
every copy of pokemon x and y is personalized
the paradox pokemon are the imagination of people
corviknight is a good deffoger
clodsire is not friend shaped
1LDK is a good player
this post is funny


I wanna talk about psyspam a bit, what do you guys think is gonna happen to the playstyle when HOME arrives, we know that the DLCs will bring back Tapu Lele (because easy gamefreak money) but I think the playstyle is gonna get a massive L with Kleavor and Samurott-H, once hazards are up you basically have 75% of the work done, so i wonder how is it gonna adapt to these new mons and if it is gonna take a good use from the new monss, Hoopa Unbound sounds funny as shit

agree, we might have to see some quirky endure + Hdb sets with weakness policy, otherwise Lele is a pretty massive dub for psyspam it can create offensive pressure (unlike indeedee) and moon blast will nail sam-h tho I won’t deny ceasless edge is def still a problem

anyways I think it will kinda remain the same as it is rn, not super op but not bad either

 

[Ast0rga]

Why the need to test explicit "Super Legendaries" / "Box Legendaries" or in other words UBERS from past gens
Who would want that

 

[MC Squared]

Regarding to Spectrier, if the new move it got was Moonblast, I would maybe give him a chance. But Draining Kiss + NP + that speed and power is too much if it recovers health apart from killing stuff. Tera Blast gives him too many options as well.
I defended Spectrier staying OU last Gen due to the potential it gave to low usage Mons like Umbreon, Regigigas or Exploud hard countering it, but this Gen I see 0 positive things for it to bring to the meta.
The only former Ubers (planned to be released, so no Zygarde here) I would test would be Zamazenta Hero, Giratina-A and Zamazenta Crown, in this order.

Spectrier's new Fairy move is Draining Kiss, something that was on Calyrex initially

 

[awyp]

So I've been testing out Future Sight duos in the tier, there aren't many but it can work fantastically if paired correctly.

I still see Gholdengo around but I have a feeling it's usage dropped a little bit from last month, but the only way to tell is by waiting a few more days for the usage report for this month.

 

[Willthemost]

• Do we think Gren is going to stay OU? I doubt it, Meowsc feels like a better protean-er, fast pivot and spikes setter, and battle bond is just... ugh.

This is what I've been worried about ever since Walking Wake dropped. Gren is an amazing pokemon but if you want a strong water special attacker you have WW there. Although with its insane coverage you can make it fit in any team by just giving it the tools your team is missing, he's that good.

That said, I hope he stays a bit longer in OU, it'd be sad seeing Gren drop to UU after being gone for so long but if it drops it'll be the ugly's cat fault. PERIOD.

Totally with you on this, it just doesn't really have a niche anymore that isn't done better by a diff mon

 

[Magcargo]

So I've been testing out Future Sight duos in the tier, there aren't many but it can work fantastically if paired correctly.

I still see Gholdengo around but I have a feeling it's usage dropped a little bit from last month, but the only way to tell is by waiting a few more days for the usage report for this month.

Yeah, offensive teams taking over has kinda put our golden friend in a bind. Dunking on Hat, Amoonguss, some Garg variants, and Corv isn't as important when teams are favoring other options over these Pokemon. Too many big threats like Sub NP Hydreigon, DD Bax, etc. that Gholdengo will be struggling against. I do think T-Wave or Sub NP Variants of Gholdengo could have the potentional to pop-off though given its ability to lure many key threats like Iron Moth, Volcarona, Hydreigon, etc. but that's just theorycraft.

Speaking of SubNP, anyone else feel that this combo feels a lot stronger than it was last gen? Lots of different Sub sweepers have been popping off like Volcarona and Hydreigon. I've tried other combos like Sub NP Hisuian Zoroark and that's been working better than one expects (though it could just be a MU fish, idk).

 

[Ctann]

Kingambut single-handedly making substitute great again. Seriously..

it always hangs around throughout a game due to its ability and priority. So one fortunate sub can end a game there and then.

note: sub and setup isn’t really amazing. Except against kingambit. Most defensive Pokémon don’t toxic like they used to, so the advantage is mostly around dodging a wisp, thunder wave, nuzzle or just denying toxapex and other weak hitters the ability to do anything for a turn

 

[YNM]

Yeah, offensive teams taking over has kinda put our golden friend in a bind. Dunking on Hat, Amoonguss, some Garg variants, and Corv isn't as important when teams are favoring other options over these Pokemon. Too many big threats like Sub NP Hydreigon, DD Bax, etc. that Gholdengo will be struggling against. I do think T-Wave or Sub NP Variants of Gholdengo could have the potentional to pop-off though given its abiility to lure many key threats like Iron Moth, Volcarona, Hydreigon, etc. but that's just theorycraft.

While I generally agree with both of you, I still believe that hazards have a key role in this meta, therefore allowing Ghold to be pretty relevant regardless of strategies.

Speaking of SubNP, anyone else feel that this combo feels a lot stronger than it was last gen? Lots of different Sub sweepers have been popping off like Volcarona and Hydreigon. I've tried other combos like Sub NP Hisuian Zoroark and that's been working better than one expects (though it could just be a MU fish, idk).

Absolutely, and one of the main reasons is the Tera mechanic. It's bad enough having to deal with a mon behind a Sub, but it's a nightmare when your moves turn into not very effective attacks. Hydreigon in particular abuses this quite well because of its solid bulk and ground immunity.