maybe they just thought it was funny. i would
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or they thought it added mystique or something to that effect
it's definitely not a coincidence that the 4 paradoxes that are linked to VE pokemon, are VE to the opposite version at the very least. I'm sure there was some vague internal logic to it when it came time to divvy them up.
They did the same thing with some of the version-exclusive Mega Stones in XY. Like, Houndoom was exclusive to X, but its Mega Stone could only be found in Y.
At least in SV, the Paradoxes are different species altogether, so it’s not like you’re being kept from using the cool new power-up form of a Pokémon you actually do have access to.
At least in SV, the Paradoxes are different species altogether, so it’s not like you’re being kept from using the cool new power-up form of a Pokémon you actually do have access to.
If they'd made the Paradox availability match the version exclusivity of the original mons there would 100% be people complaining that they missed an obvious opportunity to reinforce the Paradox theming
Yeah its definitely on purpose and I always thought it fit well thematically.
Also going back to that whole Scyther/Scizor thing and 1/2 BST’s, I always like to imagine there was one poor bloke at GF who was forced to go through all the Gen 1 Pokemon alone and make the stat changes. And every time he submitted the list he’d always get called out for something new.
Also going back to that whole Scyther/Scizor thing and 1/2 BST’s, I always like to imagine there was one poor bloke at GF who was forced to go through all the Gen 1 Pokemon alone and make the stat changes. And every time he submitted the list he’d always get called out for something new.
I just kind of wonder why they went with the Paradox exclusivity for one or two species instead of electing to go all-or-nothing on them.
Not counting the Donphan and Volcarona matches, Each version has 5 regular Paradoxes. Of them
Not counting the Donphan and Volcarona matches, Each version has 5 regular Paradoxes. Of them
- Hydreigon and Tyranitar are Scarlet exclusive compared to Iron Jugulis and Thorns.
- Flutter Mane has Misdreavus exclusive to Violet.
- Roaring Moon is Scarlet while Salamence is Violet. Yet the Ralts line is in both rather than separated from Iron Valiant
- Scream Tail, Brute Bonnet, Sandy Shocks, Iron Bundle, and Iron Hands have their relatives in both versions
Idk it makes sense to me with the context of previous games. At this point the pseudos as a group, as well as Misdreavus, have an established history of version exclusivity in the main series, while Gardevoir/Gallade, Jigglypuff, Amoonguss, Magneton, and Hariyama do not (I don't think White Forest counts).
Delibird is an outlier here, having been a version exclusive in Gens 2-4, but it's never had a consistent counterpart (it's Sneasel in FRLG and maybe Gligar in GSC/HGSS?) and it's appeared in every main series game after HGSS (excluding LGPE and PLA for obvious reasons) without being a version exclusive. Also, the main specialty shop in SV bears its name and likeness, so they probably wanted it to be available in both games.
It seems to me, then, that whether a Pokemon was made a version exclusive and whether it got a Paradox form were entirely independent considerations, but once they had their list of Paradox mons they deliberately made it so that any version-exclusive base forms were only available in the opposite version from the Paradox mon.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but why? Okay, it's done on purpose... why?
Going back to an above example, while annoying that Houndoom's and Manectric's Mega Stones were in the other version they were exclusive to, at the very least I can explain that away with them wanting to encourage trading of either the Pokemon or the Stones. And then, once you have both the Pokemon and Stone in the same game, you get access to that Mega Pokemon. Reason, Purpose, & also Reward!
But here... it's all question marks with nothing to show. There is nothing gained from having both in the same version, when you're trading them you're gonna trade Paradox Pokemon for Paradox Pokemon and the com mon exclusives for other com mon exclusives (or, in these games case, join someone via Union Circle and catch the Pokemon that spawned due to being connected to their game).
And as pika pal went over it's not like they're all just the filler Paradox Pokemon, one of them in the "Mega" Paradox.
Why need Dragapult when we have Tyranitar that can fill that role? "But Tyranitar isn't a Special Attacker". Yeah, but that doesn't mean Iron Thorns couldn't be. Heck with Iron Thorns stubby arms maybe they should have made it more like a turret sentry. Instead of Rock/Electric it could be Electric/Dark. And if they want to have a "Dark-type that loses that Type thus becomes kinder", they still have Iron Jugulis (make it Dragon/Flying, or better yet Dragon/Steel and make it resemble a tank!).
I mentioned Dragapult simply because to my knowledge it's the only Version Exclusive Pseudo in SV that isn't linked to a Paradox, so it seemed the most immediate to slot into the role if we weren't rearranging any already existing mons and relatives and instead just having "Iron Artillery" or something.
It is also uncommon for the Paradoxes to totally change attacking type (if not role) from their counterparts, to my knowledge that only occurring with Slither Wing (who's a dual Counterpart with Iron Moth), Brute Bonnet to some extent (it's still a slow high-HP mon but becomes Offensive instead of an all-rounder like Amoongus's stats), and the "Legendary" Paradoxes post-release (Wake is Sweeper offensive vs Suicune's Tank, as is Iron Leaves vs SpD focused Virizion).
I think the fanbase cares way more about symmetry and parallelism than GameFreak does. GF probably just thought it would be funny if a few of the original forms were exclusives in the opposite version to the paradoxes, but didn't feel the need to make it the case for every paradox mon.
I think GF tries to roughly balance things, but likes that balance being imperfect. Personally I think that feels more interesting, and natural and less contrived. Admittedly it sometimes means one version ends up with a Zacian and the other a Zamazenta, and occasionally there are contrivances for the sake of balance like not giving Garchomp dragon dance, but overall I think it's better than the two versions basically being mirror images of one another.
I think GF tries to roughly balance things, but likes that balance being imperfect. Personally I think that feels more interesting, and natural and less contrived. Admittedly it sometimes means one version ends up with a Zacian and the other a Zamazenta, and occasionally there are contrivances for the sake of balance like not giving Garchomp dragon dance, but overall I think it's better than the two versions basically being mirror images of one another.
DD obviously made sense at the time, though now especially it’d be cool if it is retconned in. Hopefully theres a Tera Chomp/event Chomp with DD at some point during SV’s lifespan.
Idk how common it is for GF to specifically exclude a move for OP reasons, as flavourwise the Garchomp line should 100% have it, was Garchomp any good in Gen 4 VGC?
Idk how common it is for GF to specifically exclude a move for OP reasons, as flavourwise the Garchomp line should 100% have it, was Garchomp any good in Gen 4 VGC?
Ultimately I think it suits this thread better to discuss in-game lore and logic rather than game design choices, because if there isn't an immediately obvious explanation, the answer to "why did the devs do this?" will almost always be "they just thought it'd be neat"
Was literally going to post something in this thread this morning and mmmyeah this more or less probably answers it
Pokemon that appear in Viridian Forest in HGSS thanks to swarms or special radio programs: Kricketot, Spoink, Budew, Carnivine, and... uh... Numel.
What's a mountain-dwelling Fire-type doing in a forest full of grass and insects? (Killing them all, one assumes)
What's a mountain-dwelling Fire-type doing in a forest full of grass and insects? (Killing them all, one assumes)
It's especially odd as Diglett's Cave is right next to it which would have made more sense.
Let's see, well, according to the Hoenn/Sinnoh sounds list, Numel is the only Ground-type, so maybe its there as a reference to Giovanni? Then again, it would have also been the perfect spot to place Plusle and Minun but for some reason they were placed on Route 2, right outside of the forest.
Being a reference to Giovanni is a stretch, particularly since Giovanni has no particular connection to Viridian Forest in the games and hasn't ever used a Numel to my knowledge.
I guess Kanto isn't exactly brimming with Fire locations (Cinnabar Island being all-but wiped off the map didn't help) but as you said there's Diglett's Cave, Rock Tunnel, Mt Moon, Mt Silver, Victory Road... and honestly a whole bunch of routes. Like, literally anywhere would be less unfitting than Viridian Forest.
How come Poliwrath is not a frog? Its dex entry calls it the "Tadpole Pokemon".
I have a theory is that the Water Stone somehow interrupts its "normal" evolutionary process, trapping it as a tadpole form, as opposed to Politoed, who is a frog.
Another possible idea is that it is a species that never reaches maturity (some amphibians, such as axolotls, cannot mature on their own).
Mechanically speaking, why does the Soul Dew exist? In fan-made rulesets like Smogon, it used to be banned because the Latis were busted with such huge boosts to their Special Attack and Special Defense, but this isn't something that Game Freak thought was balanced and then banned by fans. No, Game Freak knew that this item was busted. In official rulesets (both single and multiplayer) where restricted legendaries like Mewtwo and Kyogre are banned, Soul Dew is also banned, or disabled in the case of Gens 3 and 4 battle facilities. Game Freak had been making trios of unrestricted legendaries since Gen 1. Hell, they made another trio of unrestricted legendaries in Gen 3. But when it came to designing the first unrestricted legendary duo, Game Freak decided to also give them a held item that turned them into restricted legendaries because... why? What was the thought process behind intentionally giving them an item that makes them Mewtwo tier? What was the thought process behind intentionally forcing every game until Sun and Moon to muddy its official banlist with this one single item. Because again, it was intentionally busted. From its very conception, this held item was treated the same as whole restricted Pokemon by Game Freak themselves.
Mechanically speaking, why does the Soul Dew exist? In fan-made rulesets like Smogon, it used to be banned because the Latis were busted with such huge boosts to their Special Attack and Special Defense, but this isn't something that Game Freak thought was balanced and then banned by fans. No, Game Freak knew that this item was busted. In official rulesets (both single and multiplayer) where restricted legendaries like Mewtwo and Kyogre are banned, Soul Dew is also banned, or disabled in the case of Gens 3 and 4 battle facilities. Game Freak had been making trios of unrestricted legendaries since Gen 1. Hell, they made another trio of unrestricted legendaries in Gen 3. But when it came to designing the first unrestricted legendary duo, Game Freak decided to also give them a held item that turned them into restricted legendaries because... why? What was the thought process behind intentionally giving them an item that makes them Mewtwo tier? What was the thought process behind intentionally forcing every game until Sun and Moon to muddy its official banlist with this one single item. Because again, it was intentionally busted. From its very conception, this held item was treated the same as whole restricted Pokemon by Game Freak themselves.
:)
That aside, I agree that it was a weird decision. You also can't even obtain the Soul Dew in Gens 3 and 4 without an event.
As you allude to in your post, it really just serves the same purpose that another restricted-level event legendary would have served: making children feel even more godlike as they crush the Elite Four for the 78th time. Does it need a purpose beyond that?
I forgot that it used to be event-exclusive. So it may have initially been banned not because it was like a restricted legendary, but because it was like a mythical. Definitely makes the "because it's neat" explanation make more sense, and also gives people a reason to care about the event.
I think DrPumpkinz is right about the Mythical aspect, because GF doesn't tend to ban things for balance reasons in their formats (they might acknowledge or comment on them but balance-based bans are incredibly rare if they exist at all). Most of the time things just get a blanket ban, Mythicals because they're not accessible, and Restricted Cover Legends just based on numbers regardless of their viability in the format played. Soul Dew being restricted to events like the E-Reader Eon Ticket is the more likely reason, they simply decided people didn't have free access so it wasn't "fair" to include for the same reason as Jirachi or Mew.
I am curious how relevant the Soul Dew Latis were in Doubles given how wildly different a format it is from their obviously-busted Singles environment
I am curious how relevant the Soul Dew Latis were in Doubles given how wildly different a format it is from their obviously-busted Singles environment
The other reason probably ties it all together as well, I imagine: It was a tie in to the 5th movie. 5th Movie came out earlier in 2002 and obviously had to be in preproduction while the game itself was in production, so bringing over a tied item that hada lot of powerful importance in said movie, and making it strong as hell.
So it all feeds into each other, an ouroborus of design
Why did the they make it? Because the Movie had it as a major plot element and they wanted that item to be a carry over
Why was it so busted? Because it was really important to the movie, able to act as a super power source and probably have a soul in it
Why was it banned? Because it was Busted + it was an Event exclusive item
Kind of fun that they nerfed it into a Dragon/Psychic 20% move boost and made it legal everywhere in gen 7.
So it all feeds into each other, an ouroborus of design
Why did the they make it? Because the Movie had it as a major plot element and they wanted that item to be a carry over
Why was it so busted? Because it was really important to the movie, able to act as a super power source and probably have a soul in it
Why was it banned? Because it was Busted + it was an Event exclusive item
Kind of fun that they nerfed it into a Dragon/Psychic 20% move boost and made it legal everywhere in gen 7.
2023 will mark 10 years since the announcement of Gen 6 and the release of Pokemon X and Y. While looking back on the game and trying to see if the box legendaries had any ingame lore other than going to sleep for 1000 years, I ended up accidentally recontextualizing the whole ending for myself.
Here's a question you may not have thought about: Who was in Lumiose City for the parade at the end of the game?
(epilogue source - Tvoldy23 4k longplay)
On stage are Tierno, Trevor, the protagonist, Shauna, and the unchosen protagonist, as well as Professor Sycamore and Sina and Dexio, and some generic crowds as well as AZ and Floette crashing the party. Now according to the game's narration, the parade is to celebrate the five defenders of the Kalos region, and you may think that this is obviously referring to the main friend group. In this post I will be proposing an alternative theory, but first I'll go over the qualifications of each of the main five characters and their feats in the plot. Compared to SV where everyone plays some part in the final battle, XY was actually pretty lacking in its own version, but we'll see how each character contributed in their own sections.
1: The Protagonist
The whole ending sequence is all about the protagonist. You've become the new champion and caught the box legendary and personally defeated Lysandre to stop his evil plot, Sycamore personally hands you the Honour of Kalos for bravely battling Team Flare, unlike the whole friend group in SV getting marked in the Hall of Fame book, and you show AZ what it means to be a trainer again and love pokemon enough to bring Floette back. Overall the parade could pretty much just be for the protagonist and there would be no difference in the ending since the friend group doesn't even get lines. However, there are some other people who could be argued as just as worthy defenders of Kalos for joining the fight against Team Flare just as well.
2: The Other Protagonist
Out of the friend group NPCs, the opposite protagonist probably contributes the most in the conflicts against Team Flare throughout the game, actively helping you out in Multi Battles and following you for the entire Team Flare Secret HQ, so I think they deserve to be a defender too. This portion of the game is like Area Zero but you just fight generic grunts in a white room instead of bizarre paradoxes in a strange landscape.
3: Shauna
(source - MunchingOrange)
Shauna is the last member of the friend group that really contributes to defending Kalos. She joins up for the last room of the Team Flare Secret HQ despite the Other Protagonist's hesitation. Despite this she does not have any multi battles against Team Flare, and instead her contribution is opening the locked door to the legendary using a device from Clemont made for solving puzzles, which is apparently one of her main interests. Without Shauna, the Protagonist would not be able to open the door and stop Team Flare, so clearly Shauna is an integral defender of Kalos in her own way.
4: Tierno
This is where the title of "defender of Kalos" starts to get iffy. Tierno is a simple man whose goal is to make a dance team. While Calem/Serena/Shauna are deep within the HQ, the rest of the gang are on Route 10 where the stones are presumably connected to Pokemon that are being sacrificed to power the Ultimate Weapon. This is decently admirable but Tierno does not directly battle with Team Flare at all and admits that "Sina and Dexio" were the ones actually handling it, so I wouldn't exactly call him a defender but I wouldn't be opposed to putting him in the parade.
5: Trevor
Trevor has some similarities to Tierno in being that he already has a goal of completing his Pokedex and so he doesn't really get much action against Team Flare, but there is one conflict in the Frost Cavern he is involved with. Trevor fights one grunt with a Mightyena and afterwards he declares that he is scared and dislikes battling them, so I imagine he was in the same boat as Tierno in saving the pokemon and leaving the battling to the real heroes.
Sidenote: While looking into Trevor's plot relevance since I had forgotten most of it, I found some interesting information about Trevor through optional dialogue. I learned that Trevor has a sister in Lumiose City and their parents left them behind to train Pokemon. Now that's a harsh backstory.
(source)
In the postgame, Trevor can also catch a Mewtwo even after you've caught one, thanks to the power of generic dialogue.
EDIT: He also directly compares himself to AZ resorting to the ultimate weapon to resurrect Floette in this dialogue. This is pretty heavy considering Trevor's ace Pokemon is a Florges too.
"Are you wondering about the ultimate weapon, too, <player>? That man wanted to bring his Pokémon back even if it meant breaking the laws of nature. I wonder if I would feel that way if I lost my partner... This is changing the subject, but... Have you caught <Pokémon> yet?"
Also, it's hard to notice with the base 3DS resolution, but Trevor is frowning in the whole ending sequence so I don't think he really wants to be here.
So who would be the actual last two defenders of Kalos?
(source - Marriland)
(source - IGN)
Of course, it would be the masked heroes hiding in plain sight, being the only ones to use the title "defenders of Kalos" in the story, and being the only other people who are actually said to be battling Team Flare in the climax. Overall I would say that Sina and Dexio were the real defenders of Kalos on the stage in the ending of XY, but to avoid exposing their secret identities they just volunteered Trevor and Tierno to get the attention instead.
Here's a question you may not have thought about: Who was in Lumiose City for the parade at the end of the game?
(epilogue source - Tvoldy23 4k longplay)
On stage are Tierno, Trevor, the protagonist, Shauna, and the unchosen protagonist, as well as Professor Sycamore and Sina and Dexio, and some generic crowds as well as AZ and Floette crashing the party. Now according to the game's narration, the parade is to celebrate the five defenders of the Kalos region, and you may think that this is obviously referring to the main friend group. In this post I will be proposing an alternative theory, but first I'll go over the qualifications of each of the main five characters and their feats in the plot. Compared to SV where everyone plays some part in the final battle, XY was actually pretty lacking in its own version, but we'll see how each character contributed in their own sections.
1: The Protagonist
The whole ending sequence is all about the protagonist. You've become the new champion and caught the box legendary and personally defeated Lysandre to stop his evil plot, Sycamore personally hands you the Honour of Kalos for bravely battling Team Flare, unlike the whole friend group in SV getting marked in the Hall of Fame book, and you show AZ what it means to be a trainer again and love pokemon enough to bring Floette back. Overall the parade could pretty much just be for the protagonist and there would be no difference in the ending since the friend group doesn't even get lines. However, there are some other people who could be argued as just as worthy defenders of Kalos for joining the fight against Team Flare just as well.
2: The Other Protagonist
Out of the friend group NPCs, the opposite protagonist probably contributes the most in the conflicts against Team Flare throughout the game, actively helping you out in Multi Battles and following you for the entire Team Flare Secret HQ, so I think they deserve to be a defender too. This portion of the game is like Area Zero but you just fight generic grunts in a white room instead of bizarre paradoxes in a strange landscape.
3: Shauna
Shauna is the last member of the friend group that really contributes to defending Kalos. She joins up for the last room of the Team Flare Secret HQ despite the Other Protagonist's hesitation. Despite this she does not have any multi battles against Team Flare, and instead her contribution is opening the locked door to the legendary using a device from Clemont made for solving puzzles, which is apparently one of her main interests. Without Shauna, the Protagonist would not be able to open the door and stop Team Flare, so clearly Shauna is an integral defender of Kalos in her own way.
4: Tierno
This is where the title of "defender of Kalos" starts to get iffy. Tierno is a simple man whose goal is to make a dance team. While Calem/Serena/Shauna are deep within the HQ, the rest of the gang are on Route 10 where the stones are presumably connected to Pokemon that are being sacrificed to power the Ultimate Weapon. This is decently admirable but Tierno does not directly battle with Team Flare at all and admits that "Sina and Dexio" were the ones actually handling it, so I wouldn't exactly call him a defender but I wouldn't be opposed to putting him in the parade.
5: Trevor
Trevor has some similarities to Tierno in being that he already has a goal of completing his Pokedex and so he doesn't really get much action against Team Flare, but there is one conflict in the Frost Cavern he is involved with. Trevor fights one grunt with a Mightyena and afterwards he declares that he is scared and dislikes battling them, so I imagine he was in the same boat as Tierno in saving the pokemon and leaving the battling to the real heroes.
Sidenote: While looking into Trevor's plot relevance since I had forgotten most of it, I found some interesting information about Trevor through optional dialogue. I learned that Trevor has a sister in Lumiose City and their parents left them behind to train Pokemon. Now that's a harsh backstory.
(source)
In the postgame, Trevor can also catch a Mewtwo even after you've caught one, thanks to the power of generic dialogue.
EDIT: He also directly compares himself to AZ resorting to the ultimate weapon to resurrect Floette in this dialogue. This is pretty heavy considering Trevor's ace Pokemon is a Florges too.
"Are you wondering about the ultimate weapon, too, <player>? That man wanted to bring his Pokémon back even if it meant breaking the laws of nature. I wonder if I would feel that way if I lost my partner... This is changing the subject, but... Have you caught <Pokémon> yet?"
Also, it's hard to notice with the base 3DS resolution, but Trevor is frowning in the whole ending sequence so I don't think he really wants to be here.
So who would be the actual last two defenders of Kalos?
Of course, it would be the masked heroes hiding in plain sight, being the only ones to use the title "defenders of Kalos" in the story, and being the only other people who are actually said to be battling Team Flare in the climax. Overall I would say that Sina and Dexio were the real defenders of Kalos on the stage in the ending of XY, but to avoid exposing their secret identities they just volunteered Trevor and Tierno to get the attention instead.
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